Korea Information Society Development Institute chief Suk Ho-ick has an odd way of thinking about women in the workplace, rather he feels “Women are more developed creatures than men since they have one more hole.”
Also how about the comment:
“When I visited Washington D.C., I saw niggers swarm all around the city; how can you live in such a scary place? I was so afraid that I didn’t come out of my hotel at night.”
That was Gwangmyeong Mayor Lee Hyo-seon to a visiting group of the Washington branch of the presidential Advisory Council on Democratic and Peaceful Unification.
If I told my mother about all this, she would swear I was making it all up.
{ 51 comments… read them below or add one }
Both of these guys have one hole too many.
LOL . . . yeah.
Did he actually use the term ‘nigger’?
Sounds like the much more non-PC version of what I heard from a number of Korean adult business people I taught who had gone through the Atlanta airport…
Well, he was speaking Korean, so he didn’t use the word “nigger,” per se:
The word is usually translated as “nigger,” although I guess a more direct translation would be “blackie” or “darky.”
He also apparently disparaged North Koreans during the same speech.
Of course, last year, he got thrown out of the GNP for making a disparaging remark about people from the Jeolla provinces, so I guess he was just going for the trifecta…
For the hole story, well it could also be THE proof that Koreans have a sense of humor.
As far as the blackie story is concerned, I unfortunately think that it was coming directly from the heart and that for many Koreans above 30s it is natural to think like that.
I will always remember my Korean to be mother in law telling me “ok you can marry my daughter, at least you are not black”.
And i think this racial prejudice is pretty widespread all around asia.
Can’t wait to see how certain folks will try to spin 검둥이 to not mean what it does.
Robert, I know what ‘검둥이’ means, but what does the ‘둥’ part of the word mean? It also gets used in 힌둥이, so is that just a negative word for ‘person’? My dictionary, as you might guess, isn’t helping me out here.
Also, it’s a sad irony that the mayor of Gwangmyeong said that, given the relatively large number of melanin-positive people working in that city’s factories. Perhaps he ought to think about moving farther out into the countryside.
둥이 per say, is not a negative term. That’s what my mother used to call my younger brother, the youngest of the three children.
I’m not sure what I means, either.
I’ll guess that 둥이 can also be a good term based on the context.
Consult this for all your future Korean language inquiries, like I just did now.
http://krdic.naver.com/detail.nhn?docid=10680400
검둥이
My friend has a natural tan for being a Korean guy. 검둥이 was what his parents called him, since he was a kid as an endearment term.
검둥이, used by the former GNP mayor was not used for endearment, it was used for its racist meaning, flat out.
The fact that 검둥이 can technically mean something endearing is being used by this former GNP mayor to…Cover His Ass. Plain and simple.
He or his aides are just playing with words when their intentions were pretty clear.
Does Mr. Suk Ho piss out his nose?
Thanks for the info, wjk. I’ll check the link in the future.
I am not so sure it is fair to say this guy tossed out the “N” word. Whatever the accurate translation is, “darkey” doesn’t carry the weight in America that the term “nigger” does. He definitely displayed his true feelings however.
What is surprising to me is how may people didn’t catch former Mayor of Seoul and current presidential candidate Lee Myung-bak placing his foot squarely in his mouth last week. Considering the fact that the Korean papers buried the story though maybe it isn’t so surprising. It is scary to think that someone who thinks the way he does about the disabled could be a legitimate presidential candidate in South Korea
Opps…forgot to add this.
According to the small article in the Korea Times here is what happened.
“In a press conference in front of Lee’s office in Yeoido, Seoul, they accused Lee of having said in an interview with a local newspaper that he basically opposed abortion but would take a pro-choice stance if an unborn baby was disabled.”
“Lee’s camp said although it was not Lee’s intention, there was room for misunderstanding.”
Out of curiosity, what did he say about the Jeollans?
One of these guys was speaking at Lotte. Maybe he ate some of the salisbury steak that hotel kept feeding me when I was stranded in Seoul along with about 200 other people because of a coup attempt in Manila.(We were flying NW airlines from LAX-SEL-MNL.) The hotel kept serving us that dish for lunch and dinner.
17: Sounds like the infamous 함박스테이크 to me…
regarding the salisbury steak, is that supposed to be a joke?
I mean, no way it’s a steak, right?
I only figured it out a long while after, and like Ut videam mentions, when I tasted what a Japanese style Hamburg “steak” was.
Whose joke was it to start calling a hamburger a steak?
It’s cruel.
NW airlines put us up in Seoul(This was Dec 1989) for 3 days, two were spent at the Lotte while we waited for Manila airport to re-open. The airline gave a food voucher to the passengers, but the Lotte wanted to keep serving us the same food.
Salisbury steak is hamburger with some gravy on it but who says hamburger isn’t steak put on a bun?
attitudes like that are why koreans are known as the farmers in suits of east asia to many.
flomas,
Count yourself lucky it wasn’t ‘pork cutlet’, the other most popular ‘western’ dish served in Korean restaurants.
I once had a Korean girlfriend whose parents and other close relatives referred to her as 검둥이 because she was darker than your average Korean. It was a term of affection but I hardly think the same could be said of the term when used in this context. In fact, my ex-girlfriend’s mother told me that until she met me, she had been afraid of foreigners in general and that she was still afraid of blacks. She told me she had seen one once while visiting Seoul, and had crossed the street in order to avoid passing by him. When I asked why, she just said she was afraid of him. Very odd since she has had zero exposure…
deleted (off-topic like a champ)
Oogle oogle indeed!
Hey, it’s not affectionately referred to as “Chocolate City” for nothing, you know.
And former mayor Lee’s comments regarding aborting fetuses with birth defects were widely reported within Korea. This is nothing that has not been debated outside Korea as well in recent years. I think this came up recently in the U.S. regarding fetuses testing positive for Down’s Syndrome.
If the word is translated as “nigger”, than whoever is translating it is either a sensationalist or has little experience with the Korean language, since the N-word has historic negative connotations and slave-status related impact. 검둥이 has neither, it’s simply a non-PC term for those of African descent, with the closest English equivalent to describing said person as “black” and does not carry any negative connotation, and if there is any spin that’s been put out, as seouldout has suggested, about the meaning, it’s that it translates to “nigger”.
The whole color thing is not only exclusive to blacks either, as if a person were to describe a group of white people and their nationalities were unsure of, the direct translation would be again, whitey, which was mentioned already I believed. Again, no negative connotations, as there is actually no racial slur for people of color. Usually, if one would want to cuss someone out, say the equivalent of “nigger”, they’d have to add on actual insult, in this case being 검둥이상놈.
If you translate that directly, it means vulgar blacky (or vulgar black man), but because of the history of that insult, it’s akin to meaning a person with slave heritage…despite the fact that there is different word for slave. It’s strange, but it’s what I’ve learned from a few old military folks and from actual experience.
By the way, I do feel irked that I’m actually showing how you would “properly” insult a person, but I was bothered that one would try to add extra racist baggage where there did not exist any, and that there might be a situation when someone is referred to as 검둥이 and takes it as a racial slur. As others have already stated, it’s even used to describe darker Koreans -_-;.
kya,
Thanks for the input…those who speak no Korean nor have any experience living in Korea might actually buy your argument, but for those of us that do, your explanation just doesn’t wash. By the way, for the sake of clarity, my argument is not that “Koreans are racist”. I’m just saying that while living here one is able to observe various contexts where “검둥이” is used…and there are instances where it carries racist connotations – Lee Hyo-seon’s comment being one of them.
But just for the sake of argument, let’s suppose that what was running through Mr. Lee’s head was the simply the equivalent of the word “blacks” and he had used the more appropriate “흑인들” in his statement. Based on the rest of his quote, would you honestly suggest that there did not exist any “racist baggage” in his observation?
Iceberg called it. 흑인 is benign. 검둥이 isn’t.
Definitely not “black”. May not be “nigger. I guess is fits somewhere near “jigaboo” on the spectrum.
I will always remember my Korean to be mother in law telling me “ok you can marry my daughter, at least you are not black”.
That is really damn sad and shameful. If Koreans are to be racist, they should be equally so to both blacks and non-blacks.
I would humbly submit that whoever said this has little experience with the Korean language. I say this for one reason: you simply cannot find an American novel or movie where the word “nigger” is used and the Korean release does not have that translated as 검둥이 (or 깜둥이, or some other variation).
Certainly 검둥이 is not Exactly The Same as “nigger,” not in way “two = 둘” or “red = 빨강.” The commenter is right in that regard, and indeed, you might call a child who has spent the summer out playing in the countryside a 검둥이 for being all dark from the sun and it would be an expression of interest and affection.
However, this is a case of assigned meaning. That is, “검둥이” and “nigger” get used as one and the same thing a whole lot of the time and in a wide range of contexts even though “nigger” is a far more loaded term (and English has a way with “loaded terms,” too). People know it’s not exactly the same, but, knowing this, they often use them as if they were. Thus it is an issue more of translation convention than of semantics – “nigger” almost always gets translated into Korean as “검둥이,” even though you could find instances where “검둥” does not have any derogatory meaning.
I agree with WJK that “adjective+둥이” is not a negative term. However, it is nevertheless highly inappropriate and disrespectful one in this context because you cannot get cute and pat an adult on the head like you can with a child, and that is what you are doing if you use “adjective+둥이” in reference to a whole people group.
I find this whole discussion very silly. The guy did not use “The N Word” per se, but does it really matter? Isn’t being racist and a national embarrassment enough? Does he need to be put in a special classification of racist for using certain words to express it? If he said “all those dark-skinned people” that would somehow be okay?
My point is twofold (1) the person who translated “검둥이” as “nigger” is not sensationalist or ignorant, but rather is following decades of K/E translation convention. Perhaps he should have departed from it, but to say he “has little experience with the Korean language” makes me wonder the same about commenter KYA, and (2) the term the mayor used is very derogatory and insulting towards American blacks any way you look at it. It does not need to be the actual “N Word” to be so.
This is how I look at it. For the category “adjective+둥이”, you have:
1. 검둥이/깜둥이 in reference to black persons; and
2. 흰둥이 in reference to white persons.
You do not have an “adjective+둥이” form to describe Koreans, however.
Why is that?
To me, that indicates “adjective+둥이” has a somewhat less than flattering nuance to it.
dogbertt, review my post. Yes there is. Mak Nae, Kwie yum, baram, etc. Even hywin and gumoon are used for koreans with lighter or darker complexions.
wjk, I defer to you as a native speaker of Korean. However, I do have some follow-up questions/comments, then.
1. 검둥이 and 흰둥이 are obviously racial/ethnic designations. Why is there no corresponding term for Koreans as a race/ethnic group? Calling a dark-complected Korean “검둥이” does not apply to Koreans as a whole, the way 검둥이 applies to blacks a whole.
2. Yes, 귀여움둥이 is obviously not derogative. 바람둥이 on the other hand is hardly a flattering term.
Although I’ve lived for 8 years in Korea, back when foreigners were still somewhat rare, I will accept the difference in opinion in this matter as you guys do push out good points.
However, the whole not-nigger-but-close-enough still annoys me because I do feel it’s more of a historic American term that ties in with the whole slave trade. That’s why there’s that whole controversy over blacks saying that whites can’t use the word even in a friendly matter, though blacks can do so freely; because of the whole historic context.
If nigger is translated to 검둥이, it’s because, as far as I know, there is no historic racial word and the non-PC term is the next in line…even then I feel it’s a poor choice as a derogatory insult has to be added on. As far as media translations go, it’s a moot point considering most in the past have been quite poor (anyone seen seen korean star wars subs? :/), which I’m sure many have experienced. I don’t dispute, though, that he wasn’t being racist with his comments, simply that it’s a poor choice to simply translate the term as nigger.
As to dogbertt’s question #1, I hope you don’t mind my opinion on the matter, but it’s because most of the time Korean’s will try to refer to foreigners by their country. Failing that, then usually they simply point them out by color, the most common terms being the two you mentioned.
Koreans don’t refer to themselves as -둥이, simply because they already know their nationality, and also seem to be pretty decent at telling other Asians apart and can refer to their nationality (or just think they’re Korean).
흑인, actually, I feel is more of a derogatory term (the literal translation is dirt person), and friends and parents usually would refer describe a foreigner with -둥이, no insult intended (or so I believe ^^).
As for comment #2 dogbertt, 바람둥이, while not flattering, is not really thrown as an insult, the 둥이 actually makes it sound as a lighthearted joke…sort of calling someone “air dude”, and you’d not hear it used as an insult to an enemy.
Also guys, I apologize if I seem to be forceful or rude in the matter and I don’t mean it that way, it’s just that I type how I would talk and usually my tone is in a joking manner. When I actually read my words in a monotone voice, I can understand if I come across as a busybody. Simply trying to “sell” my experience which I’ve encountered
, thanks for reading.
dogbertt, the language is Korean, do you think Koreans will use a word to degrade themselves?
There is no such need.
Foreigners do more than a plentiful job with that.
I speculate that Germans don’t call themselves Krauts.
i don’t know if it’s widely used, but I’ve heard of norang doong ee, in reference to East Asians as a whole, including Koreans.
Of course, used by Koreans in reference to East Asians and including Koreans. In that sense, sort of like a Korean refering to himself or other Koreans as a Josen Jing.
I believe Norang doong ee, hywin doong ee, gum doong ee are also widely used names for…pet dogs. I don’t think norang doong ee is used for an unusually yellow Korean. Usually that’s a sign of morbid disease, and they refer to it as hwang-dal.
Thanks, wjk, for proving my point.
Thanks for your comments.
Does anyone argue that “흰둥이” is a better term though than the more descriptive and neutral “서양인” or “백인”, when a Korean does not know the nationality of the person of whiteness?
I really don’t think the “둥이” proponents have a leg to stand on here.
kya wrote:
No offense, but your comment shows ignorance of the Korean language. Are you a 1.5, perhaps?
흙 = soil, dirt
흑 = black
you want to get even, dogbertt?
Try calling people norang doong ee, or Josen Jing.
Experiment.
Have a blast.
doong ee is not an evil word in itself. Prove it to yourself, by typing in doong ee, on naver ji-shik, and find all words associated with it.
heuk in is a better and more proper term than to-in, which was also used.
But toh-in, had a connotation of being some kind of a barbaric islander. You won’t ever see it being it used in newspapers.
They’ll use heuk-in, but not toh-in.
wjk, you’ve failed to convince me.
Just tell me why “검둥이” is preferable to “흑인” and why “흰둥이” is preferable to “백인” or “서양인”.
If I call a Korean 노랑둥이, he’ll either be befuddled or wonder why I’m calling him a kind of dog.
I guess you mean “Josen Jing” to be “Josenjin”, which is a mildly derogatory Japanese term for Koreans. Again, I suspect that a white guy calling someone a “Josen Jing” is likely to be met only with befuddlement.
As for “토인”, do you see any difference in nuance compared to “원주민”?
막둥이
막내둥이
귀염둥이
바람둥이
검둥이
점둥이
재롱둥이
샴쌍둥이
쌍둥이
일란성쌍둥이
이란성쌍둥이
재간둥이
귀염둥이
노랑둥이
http://kin.naver.com/db/detail.php?d1id=8&dir_id=814&eid=+Uzgyf0LZ7PKy+y9M/ryqGhHgt9npUAI&qb=tdXAzA==
So you wanna play the Naver game? You make it too easy, wjk.
흰둥이:
[명사]
1 털빛이 흰 동물을 이르는 말.
2 살빛이 흰 사람을 놀림조로 이르는 말.
3 ‘백인(白人)’을 속되게 이르는 말.
1. describes an animal
2. used in making fun of a white person
3. vulgar word used instead of “백인”
baek in or heuk in is the most proper way to call someone. gum doong ee is looking down on someone.
You call someone a norang doong ee, they’ll understand what you mean. Not as a dog. Try it, but I’m not responsible if someone acts improperly.
Hmm. Hmm..
ya, norang doong ee deul a, hywin doong ee reul wie ha suh, bi kyuh jo.
And, try to get a subway seat.
why make anything complicated?
Its chosenjin, and it is not a racial slur. It means 조선인 (朝鮮人). All it means is “Korean”, and people in North Korea still call themselves 조선인.
[DELETED for inappropriate content]
< [DELETED, see above]
In South Korea people are called 한국인, not 조선인, because they changed the name of their country from 조선 to 한국. I would feel perfectly comfortable calling North Koreans 조선인, because that is what they call themselves. South Koreans on the other hand call themselves 한국인, so that is what I call them.
It still is not a racial slur, though.
[DELETED for inappropriate content]
3 holes versus 2….. the injustice of Evolution.
You must log in to post a comment.
{ 1 trackback }