Help less, listen more?

Alex Lee, who penned in March an, ahem, controversial op-ed in the Korea Times about gyopohood, prejudice and white privilege, asks people to “help less and listen more” in order to unravel racism in Korea. (HT to reader)

72 Comments

  1. michael your flag
    Posted May 10, 2007 at 3:12 pm | Permalink

    Always waaay amusing to read someone who has absorbed Western academic self-loathing like a sponge. Damn that “Western hegemony and how it always functions through consent and not coercion”! Where’s the Taliban when you need them?

    There are so many bogeymen and straw men in Mr. Lee’s essay that I can’t find a flesh-and-blood person to relate to in the entire thing. What exactly is his “privilege as an American gyopo in Asia” in the first place? He’s overinflating the significance of anyone who is not a native Korean citizen in Korean society.

    The quote from George Lipsitz (author of “The Possessive Investment in Whiteness: How White People Profit from Identity Politics”) was also choice.

    “The U.S.’s economic, military, and cultural sway over Korean society is undeniable. In this light, the myth of “racial equality” is exposed, making many white expatriates’ continued refusal to acknowledge their implicit (if involuntary) privilege baffling.” This is fubar on so many levels, not least in the false equivalence of how the U.S.’s “sway” makes racial equality a myth in Korea (Koreans do just fine in producing racial inequality on their own, thanks, although this is being addressed more frequently these days).

    And the same false equivalency goes for “Admittedly, Korea often exploits its “tragic past” to justify its hypocrisies (i.e. Koreans racism toward black and brown people and Korean hegemony in poorer countries).” How exactly does Korea “exploit” its past for racist ends? And as for “Korean hegemony,” the code for practicing capitalism–give it a rest Mr. Lee. You’re undoubtedly in Korea doing some capitalistic exploitation of your own.

    Anyway, it was fun reading this academic wank. Don’t beat yourself up too much as you fight your gyopo privilege, Mr. Lee.

  2. dogbertt your flag
    Posted May 10, 2007 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    My best friend once asked me what he should do to fight white privilege as a white man.

    Kill himself.

    I’ll provide the rope.

  3. railwaycharm your flag
    Posted May 10, 2007 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

    Mr. Lee is a wanker extraordinaire! Too muck ink is wasted on oxygen thieves like this idiot.

  4. michael your flag
    Posted May 10, 2007 at 3:29 pm | Permalink

    Well, I probably shouldn’t have bothered commenting on it but I had a little downtime at work (where I use my white expatriate privilege to impose Western hegemony on struggling Koreans).

  5. railwaycharm your flag
    Posted May 10, 2007 at 4:20 pm | Permalink

    I am using some down-time in the land of the raising sun to help the ChokPalli’s devise new ways to subjugate the ChosenJi’s.

  6. Posted May 10, 2007 at 8:59 pm | Permalink

    He’ll probably go on to become a professor of ‘equality studies,’ or something like that, and tap into the Chomsky/Cumings crowd.

    I’ve got to get back to work, imposing Western hegemony and so forth.

  7. seouldout your flag
    Posted May 10, 2007 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

    If this “white privilege” indeed exists I see so compelling reason for me to give it up. That would just be stupid.

  8. Railwaycharm your flag
    Posted May 10, 2007 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

    I always feel so lucky to be a white guy in Korea. I am thinking of becoming a green grocer.

  9. slim your flag
    Posted May 10, 2007 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

    Korea Times is an odd beast, publishing Mike Breen and Andrei Lankov, but at the same time running the “intellectual stylings” of yankabroad and other crap like today’s offering. Could Alex Lee be the same angry “Kormerican” who always harasses Breen’s Korea Times columns with non sequiturs and feats of illogic?

  10. Nappunsaram your flag
    Posted May 10, 2007 at 11:22 pm | Permalink

    Again, still waiting for the part that shows his foreigner’s view of KOREA, not white people. And what am I supposed to stop helping with?

    “My best friend once asked me what he should do to fight white privilege as a white man. It¡¯s the same question I ask myself to fight my privilege as an American gyopo in Asia.”

    Is he going to open a hotline so the rest of us can learn from him how to fight our privilege? My advice is if he doesn’t agree with his “privilege as an American gyopo in Asia,” (and wasn’t he complaining last time about how he was SO mistreated compared to his white counterparts?) he should stop accepting it and go if he’s really looking for a way to fight it. Or, maybe he could use his privilege to fight racism in Korea instead of bashing whites and level the playing field for everyone, other Asians, migrant workers, and Africans in particular.

    This is NOT America. Despite the heavy American forces here, this place is owned by Koreans and Koreans hold the keys to the kingdom. The white power argument is total crap here unless you want to talk about how most of the English teachers here (who are hired by KOREANS) are white. If that status quo bothers him, he should take it up with the Koreans who do the hiring practices.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go apply some more Korean made whitening cream to increase my powers.

  11. globalvillageidiot your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 12:06 am | Permalink

    “I always feel so lucky to be a white guy in Korea. I am thinking of becoming a green grocer.”

    As long as you have an appropriate visa for owning and operating one here that is! Assuming one did - and that status would perhaps apply to a few hundred ultra-priveleged house crackers at best - I guess one could do alright selling $3 pears and heads of broccoli to the locals, all the while somehow making them feel inferior. I don’t know if it would be as successful a formula for imposing Western hegemony as working out in the field (ie. language school classroom) but I’d be curious to see someone give it a go.

  12. Maddlew your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 12:57 am | Permalink

    I was hoping this one would get posted.
    He’s right. All of the average Korean’s struggles can be attributed to Western Imperialism.
    Is he saying that before 1870 Koreans didn’t struggle?
    I’m going to go out on a limb and say water is wet and they would still be struggling without our contamination. It would simply be a different manner of struggle. Gaze north to see isolationism at its finest. Oh yeah, don’t do it at night cause it’s all dark.
    He’s also right about the privelege. During the interstices between being examined like a specimen on a slide I often think about how I can combat it. I think about my “dirty skinned” neighbors and friends. I wonder at a world that can still be under the impression that an incremental addition of melanin could be equivalent to “dirty”. My privelege is an absense. I can only feel sadness at the extra slathering others have to take daily.

  13. Netizen Kim your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 1:11 am | Permalink

    Alex Lee is targeting the wrong audience. If there is such a thing as white privilege, then it is because Koreans allow it to happen. It is Koreans who need to be educated about white privilege, not white people.

    First of all, critically-aware persons like Alex Lee should be pointing out the ridiculous and unbalanced nature of the English learning hysteria to the Koreans. The modern Korean vernacular itself is increasingly contaminated with English words transliterated into hangul, compromising the purity of the language. Not everyone has to learn English. Legions of young children should not be forced by parents over-zealous about education to suffer through hagwon torture sessions, taught by a bunch of wandering slackers who could care less and are only there because, with a useless liberal arts degree, couldn’t find a real job back home. An office worker who will be employed in downtown Seoul for the rest of his life and will not be doing any sort of international business should not be compelled to learn English either as part of his job requirement. Koreans should also be made aware that despite years of toiling to learn this difficult language, their broken English would be often greeted with impatience and racism by white people, especially, in the US whereas an expat who manages to learn a few words in Korean is looked upon with admiration and praise. This is basically a manifestation of a colonized mindset.

    Then there is the issue of cosmetic surgery. There is a ridiculous situation brewing in that more and more Korean celebrities are slowly becoming barely distinguishable from each other due to the ubiquitous eyelid surgeries, nose jobs, and what not. What kind of a message does this send out to Korean young people, particular young girls, whose self-esteem is already fragile to begin with? I don’t care what anyone says. All this cosmetic surgery is an attempt to adhere to Western beauty standards and it is wrong and fraught with peril. But yet Koreans do it to themselves.

    There are many more things that kyopo’s like Alex Leee can share with native Koreans based upon our unique socio-political awareness. I hope that he may refine his thoughts and realize that he needs to be talking to Koreans and not expats.

  14. Fantasy your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 1:26 am | Permalink

    “First of all, critically-aware persons like Alex Lee should be pointing out the ridiculous and unbalanced nature of the English learning hysteria to the Koreans.”

    “Koreans should also be made aware that despite years of toiling to learn this difficult language, their broken English would be often greeted with impatience and racism by white people, especially, in the US whereas an expat who manages to learn a few words in Korean is looked upon with admiration and praise. This is basically a manifestation of a colonized mindset.”

    Netizen:

    The situation is exactly the same in Germany. Yet the Germans do not regard themselves as having been colonised by anyone; indeed many argue for the complete abolition of the German language and its replacement by (British !) English.

    I myself have not yet made up my mind with regard to this issue…

  15. slim your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 1:39 am | Permalink

    I agree with Netizen Kim on the insanity of the English education craze in Korea (and assume it won’t be long before Chinese becomes the focus of similar madness), but see it as only a small part of a larger problem in Korea. There are hagwons and cram schools for every subject and education seems to take the joy out of a child’s life. In particular, given the strength of family ties in Korea, I found it particularly cruel to see families split up as the mother and kids were shipped off to Malaysia, the Philippines or the USA while the father worked to pay for it all.

    I’m not sure Alex Lee’s the man, muddled and burdened as he is with heavy ideological baggage of a bygone era, but somebody should try inspire the ROK, with the world’s 10th or 11th biggest economy, to shake off the development mode and the inferiority complex that makes hollow the very strong national pride that is a striking Korean trait.

  16. gbevers your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 1:42 am | Permalink

    Am I the only one who cannot understand this guy’s double talk? What is he saying? What does he want? I can’t figure it out. I get the feeling that he is just screwing with us.

    “…helping less, listening more”? Am I supposed to know what that means? Did some philosopher say that or some crazy guy on the street?

  17. a-letheia your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 1:51 am | Permalink

    Gerry,

    I’m with you. Reminds me of Robin Rhee, who also used to string a series of quotes together for unasked-for advice.

  18. Posted May 11, 2007 at 3:33 am | Permalink

    yes, truly a wanker! lost in identity and scapegoating.

    “Gyopo men who whine about their women being “stolen”
    perhaps he is the one who has had his girl “stolen”
    and has some bitter resentment.

    and “Fantasy” why is it you always seem to find some way to bring Germany into everything you post? what the hell does this have to do with Germany?

  19. JK your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 3:40 am | Permalink

    Well, well, as the writer himself said, there was an inevitable angry backlash by the white expats. And we can see this is true….even on this blog.

    His article wasn’t as clear and well-written as his first one, but it definitely wasn’t worthy of such angry responses here. But then again, I’m not surprised either because as someone once said, it always becomes a p*ssing contest between kyopos and white expats.

  20. Posted May 11, 2007 at 3:51 am | Permalink

    “backlash” buzzword of the year!

  21. Fantasy your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 4:19 am | Permalink

    “Fantasy, why is it you always seem to find some way to bring Germany into everything you post? what the hell does this have to do with Germany?”

    I am of the opinion that it is a worthwhile pursuit to compare the Korean approach (to whatever issue) not only to the way in which things are handled in the US but also in, let us say for arguments sake, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Ireland, South Africa, etc.).

    With regard to language studies it is, for obvious reasons, not sensible to compare the ROK to one of the afore-mentioned countries (with the possible exception of Canada, due to its designation as an - at least officially - biligual country).

    In order to judge whether the efforts of the Koreans to learn English are unreasonably intense or not, a comparison to a non-anglophone country, such as Germany, France, or Japan is required. A comparison of the situation in Korea to that in the US makes no sense here…

  22. slim your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 4:30 am | Permalink

    I see eyes rolling in sarcasm or incomprehension at the gobbledygook that’s being passed off as insight, but no anger here. It will be lost on few that JK is unfailingly the one who views everything as an “us versus them” pissing contest. Has he ever taken a stand based on the merits of the issue rather than on the ethnicity of the commenter?

  23. Fantasy your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 4:32 am | Permalink

    “His article wasn’t as clear and well-written as his first one…”

    JK:

    No offence intended, but I found Mr Lee’s first piece already hard to bear…

    His present musings seem even crappier to me…

    Never mind, I understand that you look at the issues from a different angle, that you thus have a different perspective, and that you are, of course, fully entitled to your point of view.

  24. Rhesus your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 4:50 am | Permalink

    “The modern Korean vernacular itself is increasingly contaminated with English words transliterated into hangul, compromising the purity of the language.”

    Loan words make a language impure?

    “Not everyone has to learn English.”

    Perfectly true.

    “Koreans should also be made aware that despite years of toiling to learn this difficult language, their broken English would be often greeted with impatience and racism by white people, especially, in the US…”

    I’ve never greeted people speaking broken English with impatience and racism. People I know here in Austin, who at one time spoke in broken English, never complained to me about their broken English being greeted with impatience and racism, though they complained about lots of other things. Maybe Texas has fewer rednecks than other states?

    “…an expat who manages to learn a few words in Korean is looked upon with admiration and praise.”

    Some people praised my terrible Korean. Others complained that I should be able to speak it better. Still others had no comment about it at all. I see no universal Korean attitude towards foreigners learning Korean, other than that they expect it to be very difficult.

  25. Fantasy your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 4:58 am | Permalink

    eye4insanity:

    Frankly, I find the efforts of the Koreans to teach their children near-native English from a very early age onwards very laudable, indeed. I am actually trying to promote this idea over here in Germany. Also, I am of the opinion that German children should mandatorily spend some part of their childhood in an anglophone country - with at least one of their parents.

    I would never suggest any such thing for American children, as this would clearly be non-sensical. But I believe that this is the only way forward for non-anglophone countries and, although it is a strange kind of social experiment, it will have to be undertaken sooner or later.

    I am, however, still unsure, however, whether English should (in Germany or elsewhere) remain a mere additional option or whether it should actually replace the respective national idiom in the long run…

    And I am writing this in spite, or maybe just because of, the obvious flaws in my own use of the English language…

  26. Fantasy your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 5:03 am | Permalink

    “…an expat who manages to learn a few words in Korean is looked upon with admiration and praise.”

    I am full well aware that my Korean is understandable but not really good. Whenever some Korean praised it too much I started feeling most uneasy, indeed, as I suspected some kind of mockery…

  27. Fantasy your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 5:09 am | Permalink

    “I’ve never greeted people speaking broken English with impatience and racism. People I know here in Austin, who at one time spoke in broken English, never complained to me about their broken English being greeted with impatience and racism,…”

    It is the rule in Germany to never comment upon a non-native speaker’s use of any language at all, not even positively - to do any such thing would be as politically incorrect as to say “nigger” in the US…

  28. Fantasy your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 5:22 am | Permalink

    In 100 years everybody (assuming they are not mute or mentally retarded) will be able to speak native English. Absolutely everywhere. Then there will be no need any more for misbehaving English teachers. :-)

  29. Fantasy your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 5:24 am | Permalink

    Nor will any proofreaders be necessary any more…

  30. Netizen Kim your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 5:29 am | Permalink

    English is the Microsoft Windows of languages.

  31. Rhesus your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 5:50 am | Permalink

    nah, it’s FreeBSD

  32. slim your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 6:37 am | Permalink

    I have only ever lost patience with people (in Korea, Japan and China) who insisted on struggling on in indecipherable or kindergarten-level English rather than speak their native languages, choosing some misplaced sense of pride over ease of communication. That is an extreme buzz killer for me.

  33. Posted May 11, 2007 at 6:51 am | Permalink

    Dear Mr. Alex Lee, since you will surely be reading this,

    There is such a thing as white privilege, just as Asian-American women enjoy privileges Asian-American men do not, just as Asian-American men enjoy privileges African-American men do not, and the list goes on.

    Western. Critical. Theory. I can’t stand the stuff. Helpful to teach you thought processes, just like riddles, but at some point you have to stop and DO something, or choose not to and move on.

    I like East Asian philosophy for one big reason - the practical applicability of philosophical questions. Sure, sometimes it gets into the irrelevant and metaphysical, as philosophers will get at times because they have servants and slaves and therefore the luxury to indulge, but the point of departure in most EAst Asian philosophy usually deals with practical questions. When asked about the afterlife, Confucious said we don’t know enough about the present life to talk about the next one. It’s thinking like that that leads you to ask what it matters “whether or not a tree makes a sound in a forest and no one’s there to hear it”? How does it matter for our lives one way or another? Who cares whether an egg or chicken came first, unless you’re Noah and you have limited space?

    Mr. Lee, let’s assume you’re 101% right.

    So certain groups enjoy certain degrees of privilege in certain contexts, just by virtue of who they are. Is this really news? Even if it is news to some, what is the use of an Asian man’s burden to bring enlightenment to the white masses?

    While critical of others and rightly so, you mention that you, too, enjoy privilege. That’s a good start.

    Since you are such a cool dude for recognizing so, instead of attacking those who you believe enjoy greater privileges than you, perhaps you could offer some advice, some insight. How have you dealt with the privilege you enjoy? Do you struggle with profound feelings of guilt? Does attacking others help you with that? In practical everyday situations, how do you avoid your privileges?

    Plenty of people who enjoy privilege do attempt to be as conscientious as possible about it. What is your approach? Longwinded (Eurocentric) theoretical analysis may ask good questions and notice important things but it does not provide answers. It also likes to analyze the motives behind the theoretical pursuits of others, and so until you can tell people what _you_ do about the privilege _you_ enjoy, it’s only fair and natural that people wonder what your motive is. Could you in all your enlightenment please grace your many fans with some pointers, instead of merely pointing things out?

  34. michael your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 7:29 am | Permalink

    NetizenKim opines: “The modern Korean vernacular itself is increasingly contaminated with English words transliterated into hangul, compromising the purity of the language” That sounds so…French!

    “English is the Microsoft Windows of languages.” Pithy, this slam is, while at the same time way off base. To correct your lame analogy, Enlish is the Linux of languages, endlessly modifiable and useful for many local applications. You even need it here to put it down :)

  35. Sonagi your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    NetizenKim opines: “The modern Korean vernacular itself is increasingly contaminated with English words transliterated into hangul, compromising the purity of the language” That sounds so…French!”

    Not to mention that the purity of Korean was lost centuries ago when Koreans started importing Chinese vocabulary and renamed themselves and most of their towns, mountains, and rivers using Chinese characters. Using the word “purity” to describe a language whose corpus is 40-60% foreign in origin is .

  36. Sonagi your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 8:27 am | Permalink

    Oops, got cut off. You can finish the thought with your own sexual metaphor.

  37. michael your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 8:45 am | Permalink

    Oranckay, you’re more than even-handed addressing Mr. Lee. The main premise of his article (I guess, it was very unfocused) is this notion of “privilege,” which I’d argue is more evenly spread among the Korean people now than before “Western hegemony” arrived on the peninsula. The Chosun kingdom allowed slavery and had a caste system. Now every Korean has at least a shot at self-fulfillment through personal effort and isn’t locked into a specific social role for life. A more just society maybe could have been reached without outside influence but that would still involve imitation of social structures the West already instituted.

    If Mr. Lee really is serious about being conscious of his “privilege” he would be far better off exchanging his academic nonsense for something like the“eightfold path.”

  38. gbnhj your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 9:09 am | Permalink

    Michael,

    Regarding which metaphor is more apt: well, Linux is open-source while Windows comes at a price (and some might say that’s steep), so perhaps you’re both right.

    Sonagi,

    LOL - your comments are always a great read!

    And, re this thread’s topic: I agree that Alex Lee is all over the board, but not really scoring, with what he has to say. I think it’s weak of him to use the term ‘backlash’ to describe commentary contrary to his position.

    And lastly, why doesn’t he have the stones to enter discussion with the people he seeks to address? Anyone can get into the papers here, folks - I’ve been as well, and it ain’t no thing. Though he may believe himself to be wise, he lacks the knowledge that discourse is held in communities such as this, while print media really only offer communication one-way. Or could it be that he’s not as interested in the questions as he claims?

  39. michael your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 9:31 am | Permalink

    gbnhj–it sounds like NetizenKim is smearing English as an inferior, proprietary product (owned by who?) with a monopoly akin to Micro$ucks. Whatever, boo-hoo. I meant exactly that English is “open source,” hence its ubiquity.

  40. Posted May 11, 2007 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    Perhaps Alex Lee could give some concrete examples of the “white privilege” that whites enjoy in Korea. Next time I go to Korea I will have to refer Koreans to Mr Lee’s article to remind them of all the privileges that I am supposed to have.

  41. dogbertt your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 9:54 am | Permalink

    Shak, it’s not a privilege if you’ve earned it.

  42. McGenghis your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 9:56 am | Permalink

    The only privilege I notice as a wandering slacker (since when did exploration becoming a four-letter word?) is that children regard me in a totally undeserved rockstar light.

  43. Netizen Kim your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 10:40 am | Permalink

    Unlike Alex Lee, this righteous Chinese-Pinay babe, who lives in Hong Kong, says it very clearly and in no uncertain terms:

    Let’s get the annoying fucking cheebye shit over with first.

    DIEW MOTHER POK GAI HAI.

    If I weren’t so fucking lazy, I would just stop using the escalators to get home on Friday and Saturday nights. There are too many fucking pok gai annoying motherfuckers out there hanging out in front of bars and shit.

    First of all, there were a bunch of gweilos and their Chinese sidekicks hanging out in Lyndhurst Terrace trying to hit the trash cans with beer bottles. FUCK!!! I FUCKING HATE GWEILOS COMING OVER TO FUCKING ASIA AND DOING ALL THEIR FUCKING GWEILO FUCKING FOOLISHNESS. I swear, the fucking pussiest, mousiest fucking gweilo or gweipo comes over to Asia and suddenly they’re acting like fucking slaveowners cracking their fucking whips.

    Kev thinks it’s because there’s a lack of black people to keep gweilos in check. What pisses me off is that most people don’t fucking do anything. Most locals don’t associate with gweilos, and when they hear people speaking English, they just tune out and leave.

    The locals who do hang out with gweilos are all usually fucking seefat-licking, sek si colonized dogs and bitches who just laugh indulgently or are too intimidated by gweilos to say shit.

    The worst are the fucking overseas Asians who think they’re fucking gweilos, too and behave just like the gweilos. There are also the overseas Asians who know what’s going on, but are too pussy to say any fucking thing. I’ve probably confronted more gweilos and gweipos on their foolishness than any of the overseas Asians I know. What the fuck is wrong with you people? Have you no fucking balls? You all just fucking shake your heads and then YOU DON’T DO FUCKING SHIT.

    Once, I made the mistake of hanging out with a bunch of ABCunt men and their two gweilo friends. One of the gweilos pretended to reach out for the magazine on my lap and stroked my knee. When I flipped out and started cursing at him, NONE OF THE ABCUNTS SAID OR DID ANYTHING. I was so pissed, I left, and I heard one of the ABCunts apologize to the gweilo for my behaviour and said that I was a fob, unlike them.

    Uh, you stupid shit, YOU’RE THE FOB IN HONG KONG, YOU FUCKING GWEILO DICK LOVING FUCKING AMERICUNT.

    When I’m dictator, I’m gonna have all your asses caned, diew lei lo mo.

    Another fucking ABCunt who accosted me on the street on the way home tonight. He was drunk and molesting this stupid, slutty local chick. As I passed by, he said to me, “Hey, are you straight? Wanna fuck her?” indicating the slutty local chick.

    I know, I should’ve beaten the shit out of him, but I’m not going to beat up another Asian in front of gweilos, so all I did was say the usual, “What’s the matter, your dick isn’t big enough to satisfy her, you fucking ugly motherfucker with your ugly fat bitch.”

    Ah well. I’ll get him next time.

    On the brighter side of things, I hung out with J and his friends today. I was talking to one of them, KH, who is Taiwanese, but moved to the Philippines when he was in Grade 5.

    We were talking about how tragic women really flourish in Hong Kong, and what it was about the culture that encouraged it. I thought it was from the Shanghainese influence in Hong Kong. KH thought it was because there are so many mistresses hanging out in Hong Kong. I never thought of it that way, he does have a good point.

    KH asked me if I could choose between Hong Kong and Manila, and I said that it would be really difficult, but one thing that Hong Kong does offer me is invisibility and anonymity. I said that I loved just being another face just like any other face in the crowd.

    KH was surprised, and he wondered why I didn’t want to be special or make a mark.

    It’s hard to explain, but it’s not that I want my life to be meaningless, but there’s something really reassuring about knowing that you’re part of a culture and a society, that you’re not some pathetic fucking misunderstood individual “me against the world” boo-hoo, oh-so-sad immature teenager.

    Sometimes, people are scared (Of me??? But why??) to bring up the fact that I have this self-delusion that I’m an average local. Actually, I know I’m not. I know I can’t relate to Hong Kong culture and society the same way a Hong Konger does. I know my Cantonese still needs improvement (although, I must say, lots of Hong Kong guys have complimented me on my charming Mandarin-accented Cantonese, ahem). But, motherfucker, there is no fucking way I’m going to identify with an overseas Asian who’s “so different” from the rest of the locals, so much more “Westernized” and “open-minded.” FUCK THAT. Lump me in with the see lais, with the old men smoking and drinking tea in chaa chan tengs, wiht the giggly, silly girls and their overburdened and overaccessorized bags and cellphones.

    There are things I don’t like about Hong Kong (ahem, gweilos, for one). But I will not fucking side against Hong Kong people.

  44. Maddlew your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    He quotes George Lipsitz using “undeniable”, apparently supposing this will stifle any further exploration or contention. Yes, that is a fine word but I don’t believe it is a substitute for concrete examples or facts.
    Oranckay, “Longwinded, theoretical analysis”?
    Analysis would involve delving into it more than superficially. Mr. Lee has analyzed nothing.
    Citizen Kim, I can’t pretend to know the kind of crap you’ve been through in communicating in English. I’m sure that you would know whether responses to your attempts were racist or not. No one except the recipient has a right to say what is offensive. Yet neither can you say how my attempts at Korean have been recieved. Praise is something I know very little about. Laughter, ridicule and dismissive disdain I’m familiar with. I know dozens of people who have given up trying to learn Korean because of the feedback. It is often very disheartening.

  45. michael your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    That was really entertaining, thanks NetizenKim. See how flexible English is? “Americunt”–brilliant :)

  46. Posted May 11, 2007 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    Unlike Alex Lee, this righteous Chinese-Pinay babe, who lives in Hong Kong, says it very clearly and in no uncertain terms:

    I read it, but I still cannot understand what she is trying to say. Care to clarify it as you see it?

  47. dogbertt your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 11:07 am | Permalink

    You know, if a white person had written a similar article bitching about Chinese in the U.S., say, he’d be derided as a racist, bigot, ignoramus, you name it.

    But a Chinese girl in Hong Kong writes that, why, she’s simply expressing her cultural identity!

    Anyone who wants to step up and admit the astounding hypocrisy there, now’s your chance.

  48. dokdoforever your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    Well, last week, enjoyed the “privelege” of being spat on, along with my wife, by an old limping Korean man at one of the palaces. He seemed surprised when confronted in Korean - but it’s not as if you can get too physical with a limping old guy. Then, just yesterday, for the umpteenth time, heard calls of “f..k you” from anonymous students at the middle school I pass on the way to work. Well, I’d had enough of it, so I went into the school, couldn’t find the kids, but did find the principal. He told me that this was not racism, and advised me to pass by at certain times when the kids would be in class! Privileged white guys certainly can’t be victims of racism.

  49. michael your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 11:35 am | Permalink

    dokdoforever, where do you live?

    Lee and “righteous babe” are both twits, except I do like a woman who can curse :P

  50. Rhesus your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    Hey, don’t criticize Bluejives’ religion!

  51. dokdoforever your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 11:43 am | Permalink

    Seungbuk-Gu.. and you?

  52. michael your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    Near Namdaemun. I thought you were dealing with country bumpkins, guess they were city bumpkins.

  53. Posted May 11, 2007 at 11:54 am | Permalink

    OK, I’ll bite.

    I think the kid’s right, and I’ve written about the same things, although I think he’s just guilty of thinking he’s showing the expat community “the light” with his undergraduate Ethnic Studies tools (I should know, since I’ve taught, at some point, most of what he’s regurgitating here) when he’s pointing out the perfectly obvious to anyone who’s lived here a long time.

    And I don’t think he’s talking “mumbo jumbo” or getting too deep into “critical theory” – it’s pretty simple and straightforward, actually. I HATE critical theory, but it is sometimes useful, even if it’s fun to bash its most many bad writers and the egregious cases of mental masturbation onto paper. I’m one of the ones who rolled my eyes and groaned the most in my department’s core course seminars; I also got a reputation for being the “conservative guy” in my department. Oh, the irony.

    In any case, I think it’s pretty simple: There is the fact of European and American colonialism, and the power of English, whiteness, and American policy does exert force on the world. If one is “white,” you cannot exist outside of it (nor can anyone who is not “white”). The problem with calling it “white privilege” is that you can’t talk about WP within the United States and WP outside as exactly the same thing, although they are linked.

    That’s the mistake I made with my first major post on the topic, and the comments to that post (mostly rude and irrational, but a few made some real valid points) made that critical slip in logic clear; I think I defined WP too broadly, painted it with too large a brush, especially when we’re talking about the real fact that whites are indeed “raced” in a place like Korea, and do not enjoy social power here. This is an important and easy-to-miss fact that many US-based considerations of American power vis-a-vis Asia continually miss, since extending American hegemony from slaves to Indian policy to Hiroshima to camptown girls is an easy thing to do rhetorically, but to leave the analysis at that masks the complexities of the issues and cultures and history involved.

    That’s why Chungmoo Choi’s piece in the book Dangerous Women seemed so thin and her lead-in to her part of the book so hard to swallow: to argue that primping to show a good face to the white highway patrolman who’s pulled her over, as the alleged symbol of white male American power, and link that to the camptown prostitutes whom she imagines does the same to American GI’s, implying that both her (as a comfortable American academic with most likely a pretty nice car) and a Korean woman in a markedly different situation (a prostitute who lacks social options and advantages for a whole lot of reasons besides just American hegemony) share some essential subjectivity – that’s a crock of shit, to put a fine, academic point on it. And it comes from not examining one’s own point of privilege and and critical difference (being an upper-class American academic who has likely never been in the socio-economic position to even consider selling her body to any man, let alone an American GI) from the people with whom you claim to share a common point of view.

    Americans have to be careful before looking at things in terms of identity politics that really only apply on the American side of the big water; and too many Asian American scholars, theorists, and undergraduates often make this mistake – and I include myself in that group.

    “Whites” may enjoy advantages over people who are stigmatized both by Korean cultural patterns as well as the influence of say, the American media, which has perpetuated the same stereotypes of blacks as dirty, dumb, and dangerous across the world – but in the end, foreigners here are generally in the same boat when it comes to being part of a social group devoid of any real social or political power. And what that means for whites who live say, in Vietnam or the Philippines, also depends on how American (white) power connects to the actual, lived conditions of life in those countries, which depends on their particular histories, cultures, and other more specific factors.

    That’s why I think many whites here in Korea – from what I see in my comments, as well as here, as well as talk about with friends – bristle when people start talking about “white privilege” in the Korean context.

    Which is also why I think Lee’s being careful to point out the immense privilege enjoyed by some kyopos – especially, in Korea’s case, American kyopos – is key; in a way, there are the benefits of being both insider and fetishized Other, and even the apparent disadvantages of being a kyopo (being held to unrealistic linguistic and cultural expectations of native Koreans, for example) are a function of what is an expectation – an affective inclusion – that few “real” foreigners ever get access to.

    I think this is a point worth emphasizing, much more than the “white privilege” allegedly “enjoyed” by so many here. Lee’s talking on a level much higher than the standard “git yer hands off ‘my’ wimmin!” mode that defines a base level of critique for many (male) kyopos and Korean nationals, so I think to attack him on that point is a bit straw man in itself; but I also think that Lee’s missing a major point, one that I missed myself in the critique (and link) I mentioned above.

    In the end, I think Lee’s critique to be totally valid, he needs to have a real point; that’s what I think is wrong with his analysis. So whites get treated differently here than most Others? Sure. But you gotta complexify it and think about what that means here – not just extend one’s American Ethnic Studies learning, which can be arguably valid in the specific context of America. One has to nuance any critique with a consideration of what it means in terms of historical/cultural factors, i.e. being “white” doesn’t help apparently white women from being stigmatized as Russian hookers and bar girls, and being “black” in a certain way gets you treated a whole lot better when you are an American who speaks American English, as opposed to a Nigerian laborer with an accent, demeanor, and different “look” that even Koreans instantly pick up.

    Why do you think so many Nigerians here bend over backwards to show off the accoutrements of being unmistakably “American,” with the hip-hop clothes and other “American” affectations? That’s the power of American hegemony, too.

    I just think that what we see as “white privilege” here isn’t the “white privilege” that we see back home. If anything, the fetishization of, preference for, desire to experience “things white” are simply one more manifestation of American hegemony in general, more than the extension of the power that comes with having white skin in countries in which whites have always enjoyed the majority of economic, political, and social power.

    To say that WP here and back home are the same is a critical mistake, an easy-to-make elision that can really undermine any attempt to delve deeper, or have a real conversation about this.

    And a P.S. –

    To those who simply dismiss this as “mumbo-jumbo” and the product of “Equality Studies”, which I guess, is a sarcastic stand-in for real-world departments such as “Ethnic Studies” or “Peace and Conflict Studies” or “Women’s Studies”, all of which many in the academy would have to admit, no matter how begrudgingly, have contributed a great deal to the way even the most conservative departments and disciplines such as History, Anthropology, or Political Science conduct themselves – have you actually read a lot of the work in those stodgy departments before these new fields from the 1960’s and 70’s shook things up? One shouldn’t be so quick to write off these new ways of producing academic knowledge, even if one doesn’t like their styles or most extreme practitioners.

  54. Maddlew your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 11:56 am | Permalink

    Netizen Kim. Sorry, dude.

  55. dokdoforever your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 12:15 pm | Permalink

    If there is an outside group privileged here it is the gyopos, who as Metropolitician points out, can integrate into Korean society. Whites, even if they speak Korean well, are perceived as outsiders, as is anyone who doesn’t look Korean. Consider the marriage market.. a gyopo would be quite a catch, but there are still many Koreans who oppose marrying foreigners.

  56. JK your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    Dokdoforever, if that’s the conclusion you got from the Metropolitan’s comment, then you obviously didn’t read everything he said.

  57. babarian your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    [the purity of Korean was lost centuries ago when Koreans started importing Chinese vocabulary and renamed themselves and most of their towns, mountains, and rivers using Chinese characters. Using the word “purity” to describe a language whose corpus is 40-60% foreign in origin is ]

    Sonagi, although it is possible for an American to know more about Korea in certain areas than most Koreans do, I find it difficult to believe the above would have been practically possible. If that was possible centuries ago, then surely it shouldn’t be a too much of a problem to reverse it now, as there is a tendency to use more Korean in books and newspapers than ever before in recent times. But that’s not the case.

    [Whites, even if they speak Korean well, are perceived as outsiders, as is anyone who doesn’t look Korean. Consider the marriage market.. a gyopo would be quite a catch, but there are still many Koreans who oppose marrying foreigners.]

    That’s not something limited to Korea. Replace Whites with Koreans/Asians, Korean with English/American.

  58. JK your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    Slim, regarding #22:

    Uh, yes, I DO look at things other than a writer’s ethnicity. Do you? Why do you think that I look at only the person’s ethnicity rather than what the author wrote?

    One common complaint I’ve heard from white (and black) Western expats (as I’ll write later when describing my recent trip to Japan and Korea) living in Korea AND Japan is that when the white guy or girl has an opinion that differs from what the Korean or Japanese crowd thinks, he or she feels like the lone wolf expressing an opinion that is shaped by his or her upbringing in the West and feels frustrated and angry when the rest of the group disagrees with him or her on a particular issue. Some Westerners continue to argue his or her point to make a stand and show what he or she really believes to be the truth; others quietly change the topic so as to not make enemies among the Korean or Japanese crowd. In other words, it’s the individual versus the group mentality that frustrates the white Westerner (”us versus them” thinking that he or she faces when among a Korean or Japanese crowd). And I, even though I am a Korean-American, have experienced this among an all Korean or Japanese gathering.

    And yet here you on this blog saying, “It will be lost on few that JK is unfailingly the one who views everything as an ‘us versus them’ pissing contest….”

    Funny. That’s usually the argument many a white Western expat dealing with a large crowd in Korea or Japan has said exactly about Koreans and Japanese. Aren’t you being guilty of this? That I’m the ONLY one who thinks a certain way….therefore I’m wrong?

    I won’t be insulting and say the word “hypocrite” regarding what you wrote me, but I think you know where I am going with this comment.

  59. michael your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 2:42 pm | Permalink

    Metro, with all due respect, how does Lee have a valid critique when there is nothing to critique? Are South Koreans uninformed actors who don’t consciously decide to opt for democracy, capitalism, consumerism, individualism–you know,“Western hegemony”? Are they oppressed by taking on these institutions and values? If so, how?

    You’ve got a lot of the same presuppositions going as Lee. When you write, “Why do you think so many Nigerians here bend over backwards to show off the accoutrements of being unmistakably “American,” with the hip-hop clothes and other “American” affectations? That’s the power of American hegemony, too,” assumes a political entity (the U.S.) has influence over the self-identity of non-Americans, when a more mundane but accurate reason is the spread of African-American pop culture. I see Nigerians in Itaewon in traditional clothes–are they free from American hegemony?

    Ultimately both of you need to specify this systemic notion of privilege for a certain group of foreigners in Korea, whether “white” or “kyopo,” or anyone else, in a more convincing way than just repeating “hegemony” over and over. Non-Koreans have been treated well in Korea, and really shittily, and from reading your blog I know it’s been about the same for you (maybe once or twice more the “shitty,” unfortunately). So with so many experiences that contradict this construct, some better, concrete examples are in order, let alone the determination that the presence of non-Koreans in Korea works in any way to the detriment of Koreans, which is the subtext of all this.

    Also,“the American media…has perpetuated the same stereotypes of blacks as dirty, dumb, and dangerous across the world” is entirely bogus. Proof? I’d argue that the music videos made by “gansta” rappers is the direct source of many negative stereotypes in that regard.

  60. Sonagi your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 7:09 pm | Permalink

    babarian wrote in response to my quote:

    “[the purity of Korean was lost centuries ago when Koreans started importing Chinese vocabulary and renamed themselves and most of their towns, mountains, and rivers using Chinese characters. Using the word “purity” to describe a language whose corpus is 40-60% foreign in origin is ]

    Sonagi, although it is possible for an American to know more about Korea in certain areas than most Koreans do, I find it difficult to believe the above would have been practically possible. If that was possible centuries ago, then surely it shouldn’t be a too much of a problem to reverse it now, as there is a tendency to use more Korean in books and newspapers than ever before in recent times. But that’s not the case.

    I presume you are referring to the renaming of places. It is true. Seoul is the rare example of a native Korean place. It was called by the Sino-Korean name “Hancheong” for centuries. Cities like Busan and Daegu, mountains like Jirisan and Seoraksan all bear Sino-Korean names. It isn’t that those places were nameless until Chinese characters brought literacy to Korea. In order to make it possible for Korean people, places, and things to be written in Chinese characters, places were given new names following one of two patterns: 1) use characters to retain the meaning; and 2) use characters to approximate the sound. The former was far more common than the latter. The Japanese retain their native word for “mountain,” “yama,” but Koreans lost theirs after adopting “san.” I believe that surnames, too, came into common use after the introduction of Chinese characters. I learned this all from a book, but I cannot recall the name. If I have time, I’ll do a little googling later.

  61. Sonagi your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

    Forgot to turn off the italics. My comments begin with “I presume you are referring…”

  62. Sonagi your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 7:26 pm | Permalink

    One more correction: “Hancheong” is the Chinese pronunciation of “Hanseong,” the former Sino-Korean name for Seoul.

  63. dokdoforever your flag
    Posted May 11, 2007 at 9:22 pm | Permalink

    Maintaining the “purity” of any language would seem to be a futile exercise. Take English for instance - much of which originates from French and Latin, with “Native” English only accounting for 25-30% of words. According to Wikipedia, native Korean words also account for only 35% of the Korean vocabulary, with 60% of Chinese origin.

    Languages are always changing to meet the evolving needs of their speakers.

    Barbarian when you say “I find it difficult to believe the above would have been practically possible” are you doubting that 60% of Korean is derived from Chinese? Well, check it out for yourself.

    As for reversing the influence of Chinese, it would be quite difficult, since much of the original Korean has long since been forgotten. But what purpose would that really serve anyway?

    And, of course Korean Americans face discrimination in the US, Barbarian, who would deny that? I’m objecting to people who allege “privilege” for whites in Korea, especially after having been spat on last weekend. Koreans may favor whites to other foreigners, but all foreigners are viewed as outsiders.

  64. Netizen Kim your flag
    Posted May 12, 2007 at 2:54 am | Permalink

    Well, last week, enjoyed the “privelege” of being spat on, along with my wife, by an old limping Korean man at one of the palaces. He seemed surprised when confronted in Korean - but it’s not as if you can get too physical with a limping old guy. Then, just yesterday, for the umpteenth time, heard calls of “f..k you” from anonymous students at the middle school I pass on the way to work. Well, I’d had enough of it, so I went into the school, couldn’t find the kids, but did find the principal. He told me that this was not racism, and advised me to pass by at certain times when the kids would be in class!

    It is necessary for Koreans to proactively remind foreigners of their proper places from time to time.

  65. Rhesus your flag
    Posted May 12, 2007 at 2:56 am | Permalink

    try harder

  66. Netizen Kim your flag
    Posted May 12, 2007 at 3:21 am | Permalink

    Sonagi,

    I don’t mind the influence of Chinese hanmun in Korean language. Chinese culture and ideas have been the backbone of Korea’s for thousands of years. But I maintain that the overuse of English transliteration in hangul is an abomination.

    Why, just the other day I was reading an Naver article about Shrek 3, and I see words like “blockbuster”, “animation”, and “character” clumsily rewritten in Korean. Even words like “baby”. Hello?? Is there no pure Korean word for “baby”? English exists in Korea purely for business reasons and as a consequence of globalization. It is being used in the ebonification of an elegant, simple, and well-designed with no regard to aesthetic appeal. The corpse of Sejong is rolling over in his tomb.

  67. Netizen Kim your flag
    Posted May 12, 2007 at 3:34 am | Permalink

    But “Sonagi” is OK, though.

  68. Posted May 12, 2007 at 4:03 am | Permalink

    I try to avoid being moderator in a thread I’ve commented in, but it should go without saying that linguistics is off topic and that any discussion about ethnopolitics needs to stay within appropriate boundaries and know the difference between polemics and needless inflammations.

  69. globalvillageidiot your flag
    Posted May 12, 2007 at 9:01 am | Permalink

    “Is there no pure Korean word for “baby”?”

    Is the “pure” really necessary in this sentence?

  70. dokdoforever your flag
    Posted May 12, 2007 at 9:39 am | Permalink

    Racist Kim-

    Assuming that you’re serious, I’d be happy to put you in your proper place - in a world of hurt.

  71. gbnhj your flag
    Posted May 12, 2007 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Guys, I agree with oranckay. Although the discussion of linguistic purity is interesting, it also turns the focus away from a discussion about what Alex Lee wrote.

    Alex Lee and his opinions as expressed in the KT are much like a boy playng with a waterhose on a hot summer day - while he seems to enjoy spraying it all over the place, in the end he’s just all wet.

    As a reminder, Alex Lee’s poor communicative and analytical skills may well be what prevent him from getting more meaningful employment in Korea. Again, while I have happily supported the hiring of individuals regardless of ethnicity or racial makeup, I wouldn’t hire him because of his shortcomings.

    It ain’t always about race. That’s an assessment, not a backlash.

  72. babarian your flag
    Posted May 12, 2007 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    I didn’t deny that 60% of Korean is derived from Chinese. What I was questioning was most of the names of mountains, rivers and towns were “renamed”, suggesting that there were Korean names in use before the renaming.

    Dokdo, it is possible you may have misread the individual who you think spat on you. It is possible s/he just wanted to get rid of his/her unwanted waste, rather than intending to curse you, at the time of your passing.

One Trackback

  1. By gmtPLUS09 | live from Seoul on May 11, 2007 at 11:57 pm

    Misdirected rant…

    I for one being a KorAm Gen 2.01, I lack the patience in recognizing wandering slackers such as this twit. He’s been given an opportunity to voice our unique perspective yet he rants without premise about ‘white privilege.’ At the end…

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