Biting commentary in the Korea Times:
Clearly, the panel feel themselves to be ruling from a moral high place. They are vicars in the high church of nationalism. Not only are they clearing the legacy of the Japanese period, but also, by doing so, they are highlighting the nationalistic shortcomings of all previous governments, which failed to do so.
“The confiscation has been made 58 years after a special committee to clear off remnants of Japanese colonization failed in 1949,” an unnamed panel member said in a story in this newspaper yesterday. The implication is, of course, that because then-President Syngman Rhee back-pedaled on punishment because he wanted to harness the administrative talents of collaborators, he was morally tainted. He should have purged even if it meant leaving only bumpkins to run the country. Bespectacled intellectuals like it that way, which is why they are so scary when they have political power.
Hard to argue with that.
57 Comments
I don’t think the author is Korean. I think he will be told it’s a “unique” situation that a foreigner won’t understand. And then I think they’ll find BS reason to deport him.
It’s a pretty standard Korean philosophical bent - to continue to assign blame to the blood descendents of past criminals (and I use that last word loosely). Anyone with a passing interest on North Korea will see imediate parallels with what goes on there. People with a “bad history”, ie, capitalist parents or grandparents or those with relatives who fled to the south during the Korean War, were purged from NK when Kim Jong Il got into power - either killed, or sent to the remote northern provinces. There have been quite a few North Koreans who fled because they found themselves bereft of opportunity for a decent job owing to some distant relative who had pro-japan sympathies.
Very sad that the mindset is alive and well here in democratic S.K. I wonder if the “vicars” in charge of this whole thing would have turned their back on a better life for their families in colonial times in the name of nationalism. I doubt it.
Excellent point. I really never thought about it, but if Syngman Rhee had purged every single Japanese collaborator he would have left South Korea looking like a cross between present day North Korea and Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge.
No, these people have paid inheritance taxes and property taxes for years. The imperialists who originally acquired the land have been long dead, so confiscating what is now rightfully theirs won’t change what has happened in the past. The old bastards have been long dead. As the old expression goes, “two wrongs don’t make a right”.
I find it scary that no one in Korea will dare speak out against the whole land confiscation thing simply because being labeled ‘pro-Japan’ is possibly the worst stigma imaginable for Koreans.
It also brings to mind the “Truth Commission” which absolved Korean POW camp guards of any culpability for their pro-active use of torture on allied prisoners, 50 years after the said torture took place. It’s all part of the same neo-nationalistic, anti-japanese trend.
History can only be revised up to a point. After that, so long as the ends are suitably nationalistic, even without a moral mandate, shit just gets done. What Korean politician is going to do the right thing and speak up about the trampling of ethics when they risk getting branded pro-jap, anti-Han?
“The property will be used to compensate independence fighters and their offspring”
WTF? How many “independence fighters” are still alive? And their offspring?
Some seriously warped logic getting put into use here. The war’s over folks. Move on.
Man, “ZZOOzzoo” is *so* correct, IMHO, very much so. This sort of thinking is an antique from the past. When will the Chosun Dynasty really cease to exist I wonder?
You can call me a cynical bastard or just maybe I just know how things work in Korea. My guess is that those who did the confiscating of property or advocated the policy, will be the ones who will be ‘compensated’ with the proceeds of the sale. Let’s see the wood from the trees and realise there is no such thing as “Nationalism” in Korea. It’s all about brainwashing and sucking people into supporting higher profits and theft by the powers that be. Ask the question, who benefits from Nationalistic idoctrination? The average Korean? Nope! It’s the elite!
More fluff and bluster from the Roh administration in order to continually focus on the past so as not to draw attention to the real issues that affect this country.
One of my acquintants in Seoul who has been importing Japanese porn comics, which by the way turned out to be a real goldmine in Korea, is having the time of his life as his communist grandfather was a member of the anti-Japanese force.
He proudly told me that his grandpa got executed by the Japanese after he had killed a collaborator, raped his wife and daughters before battering them to death, and buried his infant grandson alive.
Great to be part of such an elite culture.
austin,
Nationalism is abused in every country around the world, we just notice it a bit more here because we are outside observers with inside knowledge (plus it’s hard to turn us on to Korean nationalism when we are reminded everyday of our foreignness).
Believe me, there is no such thing as a Korean nationalism, it is a total contradiction! How do you explain nationalism in a country with people dreaming of driving German cars, drinking French wine, copying Japanese and (black) American culture, spending their holidays in Europe, sending their children to American universities, deporting their orphans to Scandinavia, and praying to some foreign god from the deserts of the Middle East?
If you think that unification with NK is nationalism, you’re wrong. There is a huge difference between nationalism and self-castigation.
outstanding comment, Havik. That was beautiful ! Truly, a great comment !
Regarding North Korea, I think something can work out for the benefit of both North and South, if the North was smart enough to accept it and focus on economics rather than Kim Jong Il’s hypothalamus, sun-goon, song gun, or whatever. I don’t know how well it would work, but North Korea could transform into South Korea’s manufacturing factory. Cheap wages, build stuff there rather than more South or even in China, Southeast Asia, etc.
Did anyone catch CNN international’s tv broadcast about China burning more coal than any nation on earth, right now?
Yes. At least the North Korean purged their pro-Japanese bastards. And they kept on purging any individual reactionary against good Korean self-governing. In fact, they continue to purge those reactionaries to true Korean nationalism to this very day.
Sorry to disagree with the above comments, but I think justice is long overdue. True, at this late date no government measure will be perfect, but how can you justify the wealth that these families received for supporting the Japanese - profits from supplying the Japanese war effort, and land originally stolen from Koreans by the Japanese?
And, no, you can’t justify the collaborator’s continued power and influence following liberation on strictly technical grounds - Breen is way off base. The two year US military occupation did its best to prop up the very unpopular collaborators, while simultaneously crushing a populist movement in Cholla and Cheju. Loads of US aid channelled through Rhee accounted for any limited support he could generate through patronage politics. North Korea did pretty well in the 50s and 60s without collaborator “technical support” - it was US political support that allowed that group to maintain its position. Collaborators and their offspring were able to keep secret the names of those who served in the Japanese colonial govt for the last 50 years! Korea definitely needs to clean out its closet, reveal who these people were, and how much they illicitly gained. Some form of justice and compensation is definitely needed.
I’d just like to say that the confiscation is just and totally right. There, that’s all I have to say.
Lt Col James Hausman is referred to by Koreans as the “Ugly American”. He liked to use Korean, Japanese Collaborators to fight the communists. Why? “once a whore, always a whore” - he said. He figured that these people would not hesitate to kill their own fellow countrymen.
So collaborators treat other Koreans like shit! Hey isn’t this how virtually all Koreans treat each other behind the anonanymity of their SUV’s
dokdoforever,
In re: “North Korea did pretty well in the 50s and 60s without collaborator “technical support””
Are you saying that North Korea had no Soviet or Chinese “technical support” during this period? Considering the plunge that the entire North korean economy took after the collapse of the Sovier Union shut off much of their assistance, I think any data on 50s thru 89 North Korean economic performance are highly suspect.
Austin. Would you have a reference to a printed history that references Hausman’s quote? I seen his name on some Kimsoft’s site, and would be interested reading anything that’s been published on him.
Havik,
Actually, the things you have mentioned are expressions of the fact that modern Korean nationalism finds some of its roots in late 19th century’s Social Darwinism.
lirelou -
One of the keys to the ‘Korean miracle’ is human capital - in the 1950s Korean overall education levels were far above similarly ranked nations in terms of GDP per capita. And, when most people refer to collaborators, they’re referring to the leaders of the bureaucracy and police under the Japanese, the ones that became rich under the Japanese, not the mid to low level technocrats. So, relative to other developing countries, there were plenty of adequately skilled Koreans to staff govt ministries without appointing people like Kim Suk Won, aka Colonol Kaneyama to help lead the army.
It was inherent limitations in the N Korean economic model that produced stagnation in the 80s - a lack of market incentives, state set prices, and an inability to increase factor inputs to the economy (limited land, labor capital) and no improvement in productivity -compounded by a cut off of subsidized Soviet oil. Human capital was not the major problem.
Austin remarks-
“collaborators treat other Koreans like shit! Hey isn’t this how virtually all Koreans treat each other”
-Well, I’d say the colonial and authoritarian legacies have a lot to do with the poor way Koreans treat each other in public, even today. Socialized under a system for 80 years where you couldn’t trust other people, where selling out your country brings big rewards, and most people at the higher ranks of society are traitors. That’s why it’s important to set the record straight on what happened- it’s one step towards building public trust, teaching people to respect community, and show that crime (even when no one is watching) is morally wrong - a lesson the Hanwha gangster Kim Seung-youn needs to learn.
“Did anyone catch CNN international’s tv broadcast about China burning more coal than any nation on earth, right now?”
Yes, I did. It’s a bad thing. Anyway, are you suggesting that Korea - South, North, or unified - seize some Chinese territory in response?
Korean nationalism is pouring raw sewage into the study of Korean history. I believe that most of the history books in Korean book stores today are not worth the paper they are printed on, especially books dealing with twenieth century Korean history and with topics like Dokdo. Most probably deserve to be put up on the same bookshelf as the Works of Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il.
No, I just wanted to mention that it’s a very bad thing. For the world.
dokdoforever,
You certainly argue your points well, so kudos to you. On the educational level, however, didn’t the Japanese established public school system have some small part of that? You don’t need to argue that, my point being is that it gets rather difficult separating what Japanese institutions contributed to the later success of Korea, and what Korean unique institutions contributed. I fully agree that Koreans put in the human capital, and that some of it was indigenously Korea. But that generation of Koreans were likewise products of the Japanese colonial experience, so some of the components of their “human capital” were Japanese. Don’t misunderstand what I’m saying. I don’t feel that Koreans owe any debt of gratitude to Japan. But I do feel that any honest appreciation of the ROK’s modern miracle should at least acknowledge Japanese contributions.
Your comment to Austin on the colonial and authoritarian legacies and their influence on modern Korea behaviour begs a question. By “authoritarian”, are you including the late Choseon dynasty, which did not see the abolition of slavery in Korea until 1894 (with reported instances of it even after aboltion), with the post-liberation military governments? My first thought was that you were ignoring Choseon influences, but on a reread, I suspect you are so including it.
The thesis that all of Korea’s social maladies linger due to the Japanese colonial period — which lasted between 35 and 48 years — is complete nonsense. That such a brief interlude could completely change the culture is hard to fathom. It discounts the 5000 Years of Korean History™ that we hear about so often. How did the Japanese entice, or force, Koreans to junk the paradise of the Chosun era? After Liberation, why wouldn’t the suppressed Korean character return? Is Uncle Sucker to blame? Or is this so-called “Japanized culture” so much more powerful and compelling? Fifty years of Japan can overwhelm 5000 years of Korea, that’s what you’re saying.
I don’t think so. The fact is, Koreans are the way they are because this is the way they are.
“I’d just like to say that the confiscation is just and totally right. There, that’s all I have to say.”
How so? At least explain your reasoning.
I can understand confiscating property off a living colaborator, but I think it’s a bit of a stretch to punish second and third generation family members for perceived wrongs, 50+ years after they supposedly took place.
Even more incredible is rewarding “offspring” - people who might well be child-rapists for all we know - for things their parents and grandparents did.
How would you feel, WJK, if your father left you something and a few years later the gov turned around and said thanks very much your grandad was a piece of shit so we’ll be taking that money and giving it to Mr Johnson because his pap was sound.
Ridiculous. What’s the motivation here, justice or hate?
Just read some of Isabella Bird’s pre-Japanese rule observations and see how quickly you are struck with the feeling of plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.
#25 - I was about to write along similar lines.
Dokdoforever, stop blaming other countries for every little thing wrong with your own. It’s absurd to suggest that Koreans treat each other poorly because of what the Japanese put them through. The Yangban were far more brutal masters than the folks from Nippon. And have a look at what’s going on in NK as we speak. There are few, if any, countries whose people treat each other as badly as they do north of the DMZ - thats home-grown hate, exercised firstly by the top brass, but perpetuated throughout every level of society. And they’re all ethnic Koreans doing the hating on each other.
#26, Hoju Saram,
Do you think it’s okay to take stuff away from Chun Doo Hwan?(I’m kind of ambivalent here, because it’s my OPINION that all ROK Presidents so far did something worthy of a President, counting Noh Moo Hyun)
Do you know what Lee Wan Yong’s nephew is doing now adays?
Hmm?
Chancellor of Seoul National University.
Do you know who Lee Wan Yong is?
Perhaps shakuhachi would explain to you.
Would it be right to confiscate wealth from Ferdinand Marcos?
I suspect 99% of these people aren’t losing much.
What happens to people who commit treason, anyway? What happenned when Torries were caught after the end of the American Revolutionary War? What about Confederation govt cabinet members after the American Civil War? I think it was pretty much a slap in the wrist. Jefferson Davis spent less than 5 years in jail, and enjoyed a normal life, says wiki.
This is also a slap in the wrist.
You’ll be surprised at what real wealth these people hold.
Since the ROK has successfully become a democracy, now it has the luxury to execute justice on people who got off due to fears of communism taking over the land.
ROK is still a reasonably good country for these people, too. I think these people will still have the guts to sue the govt back and try to hold on to the land. It’s not North Korea. They can sue the govt back in court !
Giving the land back to Independece fighter’s family is laughable. I don’t think there’s any objective standard to do that.
I think the govt should simply take it back and use the land as it sees fit. Build a road, dam over it, etc.
“Since the ROK has successfully become a democracy, now it has the luxury to execute justice on people who got off due to fears of communism taking over the land.”
Going after people - and only a select few, of course - who collaborated with the Japanese - before communism was a big issue here - is one thing. (The problem is they’re dead!) Going after their family members is another issue entirely.
I’m all for trying to get Chun Doo Hwan’s loot. I wouldn’t be so sure about trying to take it from his grandchildren as late as 2050…
wjk, you’ve missed my point.
I have no problem with punishing an individual for something he did - thus your comment on Chun Doo Hwan is irrelevent.
Likewise:
“Do you know what Lee Wan Yong’s nephew is doing now adays?”
I have no idea and I don’t care. Lee Wan Yong’s nephew is not Lee Wan Yong. He has done nothing wrong and therefore should not be ascribed blame. I have a problem with punishing someone because of blood ties. Thus my question to you: how would you feel if you suffered for something your grandfather did?
The way to fix the crimes of the past is to try to heal old wounds, not reopen them.
“Would it be right to confiscate wealth from Ferdinand Marcos?” If he was alive, yes. But he isn’t. Again, you miss my point.
What happens to people who commit treason, anyway? What happenned when Torries were caught after the end of the American Revolutionary War? What about Confederation govt cabinet members after the American Civil War? I think it was pretty much a slap in the wrist. Jefferson Davis spent less than 5 years in jail, and enjoyed a normal life, says wiki.
ditto ditto ditto.
The real problem is that South Korea is lagging behind Japan economically and culturally while China and India are ready to take over. I see this as a desperate attempt to ‘revive’ the Korean spirit by appointing scapegoats.
But it wont work. I am sure it will end up with a lot of law suits, media hype, political games, unavoidable candle lights, and very few vultures who will take all the money.
It is like Korean kickboxers. After their display of ‘Korean pride, power and fighting spirit’ they usually go to the canvas. Inglorious..
Ok, let’s imagine I am Chun Doo Hwan’s 2nd son. Who is alive. I have a ton of money. NOW. I was asked by Korean media, how I got this money. I told them, my maternal grandfather invested in stocks for me, and you know what? My maternal grandfather, who didn’t even finish highschool, managed to make a better return on my money than Warren Buffet!
Surprise !
The media doesn’t buy it. In fact, they publish this story, and now I am in deeper shit.
I manage to marry a hot young Korean tv/movie actress about a decade and half younger than me.
We make off with our money and buy a home in southern California, give birth to our daughter. And live happy with our money.
Until, local gyopos recognize us, and suddenly Korean newspapers make rounds around our house.
Now, we plan to move again. With our money, too, of course.
Should Chun’s son’s money be accounted for?
Ditto to Lee Wan Yong’s nephew/grandnephew. They are all beneficiaries of the same gravy wagon.
I’ll answer your question, hoju_saram. Say I am Lee Wan Yong’s great grand nephew.
Since I was born, I only knew wealth and high class. I graduated from the best schools, and so did my brother. My father and grandfather were basically partners and beneficiaries of Lee Wan Yong. During 1900 to 1945, we never lacked a thing. In fact, we had not only money, but titles, positions ! After 1945, except for perhaps 1950-1953, life was still great for us.
I got my PhD. My brother got his PhD. I became the Chancellor of Seoul National University.
My brother became in charge of the a museum in Seoul.
Thus were our fates and almost all of our blood relations and cousins.
Now, the govt wants to take some land that belongs to us from Kyong ki do, Choong Chung Do, etc.
Hmm. Is this a kick to the curb? Am I going to have to beg on the streets?
Significant, but small loss. It’s not even real punishment.
Look at it this way.
It’s a tax.
Maybe this is just something Korea needs to do. If it proves to have been a mistake, then there will be ramifications of some sort. But it is Korea’s decision to make.
It is Korea’s decision indeed, but as a Korean myself, it is bloody hard to witness a country with so much potential is heading towards mass idiocy.
Some Koreans will say that Korea can only move forward after straightening out their past, but the problem is that very few in Korea are aware of what is happing now.
Do the Hyundai family and Kim Dae-jung count as North Korean colaborators?
“Ok, let’s imagine I am Chun Doo Hwan’s 2nd son. Who is alive.”
Why? It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. To quote Michael Breen:
“…please note that the traitors are dead. And please also consider that some of the assets being seized were given as reward for actions in support of Japan taken over 100 years ago.”
Dead, and their crimes up to a hundred years old. You’ll have to give me a better analogy than that.
Again, how would you feel if your government took it upon itself to take money/assets from you for something a relative did at the turn of the last century?
It’s crazy. I hate to say it, but it’s something that would never happen in any other OECD country. I love Korea, but like some of the other commentators have mentioned, this is pure hate politics and jingoism, and no-one with the balls to call it for what it is except for an expat columnist who will probably be ignored anyway.
Put it another way, if people in a democracy should be legally vulnerable to losing their assets because of historical wrongdoings - which appears to be what you and the “vicars” in questions seem to be condoning - how many people’s relatives would stand up to the scrutiny, not just in Korea but anywhere in the world?
If everyone in Korea who benefited indirectly from the Japanese colonial period was punished, there would be few avoid the wand.
If this is not about Japan-hate, why not go after those people who aquired their wealth by standing on the backs of ordinary Koreans in the pre-colonial period, ie the Yangban class? Much of their wealth must have survived and trickled down throughout the last century and a half.
Or wait, I have a better idea. Why not simply go after the corrupt elite who are acquiring wealth at the expense of their fellow Koreans today? Why is it that the crimes of the 재벌, the crooked politicians, teachers and journalists get ignored and the children of long-dead collaborators get attacked?
I’ll tell you why: because this isn’t about justice, it’s about jingoism, contived for political ends.
Maybe someone would examine the parallels with the return of some property stolen by Communists/Nazis in Europe. I believe there are some similarities.
No more or less so than the current administration, I’d say…
I think there would be parallels in situations where a son or grandson or daughter inherited money and was later forced to give it up because the money was garnered through criminal activity. That’s not so far-fetched. There would probably be a statute of limitations in many countries, but not all. Sure the children or grandchildren would be pissed, what of it? If it was accumulated nefariously then what can they say, “I want my granddad’s criminal profits back”? In Korea collaborating with the Japanese is looked at criminally.
I don’t know these descendants of the collaborators. Maybe they are nice folk but it probably wouldn’t hurt them to break a nail working for a living. If they’ve had a soft life because of what their family did I’m not going to go all blubbery for them.
Breen did make a good point. Where do you draw the line? How far back do you go?
I suppose there is a point where things become less emotional here in Korea. Alot of what is done is emotionally charged and has that nationalistic edge.
“Alot of what is done is emotionally charged and has that nationalistic edge.”
I’m a master of the obvious.
This smacks of election season foreplay and you can bet they’ll turn their attention to the US sooner rather than later.
Yes, it does have everything to do with the issue at hand. Lee Wan Yong’s great nephew, Chancellor of Seoul National University.
Lee Hoi Chang. His father was a known collaborator. He even apologized for it…in an election year. Never prior to that. Lee Hoi Chang. Once the highest ranking judge in the land and then on the verge of becoming President of ROK. His sons? Somehow both were “weaklings”, having weight way under their heights. Too weak to serve in the military. Both were exempt.
Chun Doo Hwan. “I gave all those under-the-table money back to Korean society. All I have now is 29 man-won.” Chun Doo Hwan’s son, caught red handed with an enormous amount of money, goes to southern California, lives his 2nd marriage life, and donates a sizable amount to John Kerry’s election campaign. Kerry returns the money after accepting it first.
Theme: Sons and grandsons of these rich people who got their riches by, hmm, selling their country out, accepting illegal bribes from corporations, etc, they ALL ended up in high society, high education, lots of mool-lah, and they perpetuated their top spots in ROK society !
What’s wrong with the govt taking a tiny bit of that back, after decades and decades of them having benefited from “ill gotten gains”?
I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
This is not a witch hunt.
They only took some land from the top recognized, universally accepted sell-outs.
This will not go further down the chain, and I remind you that Lee Hoi Chang’s father wasn’t deemed top level sell out status, so they didn’t lose anything as a clan.
Which brings to an important point.
The Clan is a fairly important social group in East Asia. Blah-blah Kim’s, Blah-Blah Lee’s, they’ll help you out with the right jul-suh-gee, and make things easier for you. Given the blood relation, of course.
“I want my granddad’s criminal profits back” - exactly, Maddlew hit the nail on the head.
This is a democracy, and if a majority wants to take wealth from a group of rich guys who’s family’s accumulated it through illicit means and redistribute it, so be it.
And Hoju Saram - I’ve never blamed another country for anything wrong with my country - you don’t even know what country I’m from! But, I do blame the Japanese for the political legacy they left behind in Korea. Certainly they made economic contributions, but politically.. the crooks who continued to run this place made a mess of Korean society.
“Koreans are the way they are because this is the way they are” - words of wisdom from Mr. Carr, thank you. I had always thought they are the way they are because of they way they are not, but now I know better.
Seriously there are some very big differences between the weak, fractured, impotent Chosun Dynasty and the penetrating highly authoritarian state constructed by the Japanese in Korea - sending Japanese police all the way down to the village level to impose colonial rule and deprive kind of autonomous space for civil society and free interaction between individuals. And this legacy continued under Park and Chun - I’ve heard how you couldn’t talk freely in taxis - about spies that infiltrated universities disguised as students, even businessmen taken in for electric shock torture under Chun for not providing enough bribes.
Hoju saram, you missed the point - no one is claiming that Japanese oppressed more than Kim Il Sung - but the Japanese did introduce the infrastructure of oppression, the type of authoritarian state that Koreans later took on as their own. Institutions are not costlessly constructed - there’s alot of inertia, and the model persisted. Why are societal trust levels so low in countries that experienced totalitarian regimes? Like Russia today? There is a legacy, you can’t deny it.
dokdoforever bangs the nail to the wall.
Look at ALL the former Soviet Republics who went independent and almost all of eastern europe that went free.
Bribes is the norm.
Mistrust rampant.
comment on the Chun Doo Hwan’s 29 man-won.
Chun got somehow betrayed “softly” by dear friend and protoge, Roh Tae Woo.
Chun had to face Korean Congress and answer various charges, ranging from corruption, misuse of military force, torture, bribes, oppression, etc.
Chun made a dramatic show of repentence. He went into a Buddhist temple, so did his wife. He claimed he gave all the ill gotten gains back to society.
Then, less than a year after crying on tv, in front of Congress, asking for forgiveness and admitting some fault on his own,
tv news hits major headlines, showing that Chun emptied out his bank account, but his wife, his brother, his father in law, etc have enormous money in their accounts.
Chun goes thru another stunt. His wife and him show a bank account record on tv, that all they have now is 29 man won. At the time, that was enough to live on for a month. Now nowadays, definitely not. Thus, the advent of the 10 man won currency note.
About 20 years later, Chun Doo Hwan’s 2nd son gets red handed with such astronimical money in his bank account. How did he get it? Impossilbe from working. He’s not the owner HyunDai, Sam Sung, etc.
Chun’s son quickly claims this was a result of decades of INVESTMENT.
He gave his money to his maternal gradfather, and grandpops played the stock market, and booooomed it way bigger than Warren Buffet. Joo Shik Chun Jae.
No one believed it.
The truth?
Chun simply moved his money to people he could trust.
Like his father in law.
Brendon Carr wrote -
“Fifty years of Japan can overwhelm 5000 years of Korea, that’s what you’re saying.”
In terms of constructing a modern industrial state - yes, that is what I’m saying. In terms of culture at the personal level, like family relations, language, luckily no - although give the Japanese another 50 years and the Korean language might have been history too. When a more powerful, technically advanced people overrun a weaker one and introduce something new - a modern industrial state, with a rational planning bureaucracy and police to serve as an apparatus of oppression and control - they can eclipse thousands of years of history.
Some posting herein do not seem to realize that the notion of guilt by blood relation poses a problem in itself. The idea that if one’s grandfather did something that displeases the ruling party of a country, then their descendants should be held responsible, simply by this relationship. This is how North Korea works and it is not an act of decency. The idea of guilt by blood relation robs a society of personal accountability — a very democratic notion — where one is responsible for ones actions. This blood guilt is much like the guilt felt by many Koreans over the VT shooting, where many Koreans automatically assumed that ALL Koreans would be held accountable. This is simply not the case in a truly democratic society, rather is a antique of past times and not a very worthwhile antique at that.
Sure, one can do such a thing but it smacks of petty revenge and is the action of those with no real dignity — IMHO. There are so many better things to focus upon rather than having such an unhealthy fixation upon the wrongs of the past that can not be reasonably addressed through an alleged system of justice such as insuring that the rights of all Koreans can never be sold again in such an easy manner.
You don’t say.
Tell you what, dokdoforever. Why don’t we meet at Jeoldusan so you can repeat this claim in person. I, meanwhile, will be listening for the stones to cry out.
Dokdoforever, this is starting to get off topic, but the original comment was that Koreans treat each other poorly. You blamed authoritarian colonial legacies for this - ie the Japanese and those who followed them, perpetuating what the Japanese did.
Then Brenden posed made the point: can 50 years of rule by the Japanese overule 5000 years of self-rule? And he was talking about the character of Koreans - the social maladies, the culture, I think were the words he used. Which relates back to the original comment - how they treat each other.
Your responded:
“In terms of constructing a modern industrial state - yes, that is what I’m saying. In terms of culture at the personal level, like family relations, language, luckily no.”
But thats what we’re talking about, aren’t we - the way Koreans treat each other.
Sure the Japanese system caused division and distrust - and was abetted by forced mobilization, modern techniques of spying and coercian - all the unhealthy police state apparatus that comes with modern authoritarian rule. The Japanese policy in Korea was deliberate, cynical and it caused a lot of problems, many that still exist today.
But to blame them for the way Koreans treat each other - in all walks of life - today? I don’t buy it. Many oppressed peoples have actually formed better social systems on an inter-personal level after periods of severe repression. Witness Australians, many of whose forefathers were repressed far more brutaly than Koreans under the Japanese as convicts under the British. Australians haven’t turned out so bad - i’ll go as far as to say they treat each other much better than modern day brits do.
As for the Russians - how do you know that the reason graft and endemic social maliase is due to recent authoritarian rule? Could it have been ingrained far earlier than you suppose, notwithstanding Lenin and Stalin?
As for my coment on North Koreans - no, I’m not missing your point at all. We’re talking about the way Koreans treat each other today. North Koreans are Koreans. They treat each other badly - incredibly badly - not because of “the type of authoritarian state” that Koreans inherited by the Japanese - but because of the actions of a few monsters, whose social morals were taught not by the colonialists - but by Korea’s long, unique, brutal history.
The Japanese may have introduced the modern authoritarian state but Koreans were already long-accustomed to the far harsher backward authoritarian states that preceded it. I think it is far more likely that the poor way Koreans treat each other can be conscribed to confucianism and the age-old Han custom of ranking society - the weak deferring to the powerful. This began long ago and was systemized by the Yangban. It resulted in a lopsided, unfair, corrupt, civil order that led to flunkyism, fear, repression, hate etc.
Don’t blame Japan for that.
whoa - bold attack. I only meant to emphasize the first part - “the way koreans treat each other”.
this is way overblown to be some kind of blood guilt witch hunt. Govt didn’t jail them, execute them, deport them, okay?
OKAY?
They just took something physical. LAND.
Alright, if Greece wanted the Elgin Marbles back, who would they ask?
That’s right.
And why? That’s right.
What’s the difference between the Elgin Marbles and this ill gotten land?
Case Closed. Maybe not for you. These people aren’t going to jail or getting their heads chopped off anytime soon. The country is the Republic of Korea, where people are elected to an office seat. By a popular vote.
Seoul National University’s Chancellor will still have his job. Very secure.
Hoju Saram:
I have a couple of points for you before signing off.
To clarify - the highly authoritarian, modern industrial state is an innovation introduced by the Japanese, which several noted scholars (not just my opinion) argue was far better able to shake-up and transform Korean society than anything that had come before. I would argue that the 35 years under that system, and 40 years under subsequent authoritarian rule that followed did some damage to interpersonal trust and respect for the public sphere. People don’t have much respect or sense of ownership of public space under authoritarian regimes because these belong to the dictator. As I know, Korea used to be known as the “Country of Good Etiquette” once. Doesn’t seem that way now, not in Seoul anyway. Living in the Chosun dynasty, or any other feudal system, would not be fun, but as far as I know, power was decentralized in the Chosun, in the hands of the Yangban as well as the King. It simply did not have anywhere near the kind of oppressive capacity as a modern police state. It seems that you are blaming the lack of trust, disrespect for community, etc, on Korean culture as formed through the Chosun Dynasty’s feudal class structure. If so, what makes Chosun style feudalism so much more damaging to notions of community and trust, compared to English or French feudalism, for instance?
I don’t soley blame the Chosun Dynasty’s feudal class structure for it - but I do think it is home-grown. I guess if I had to ascribe reasons I would blame confucianism firstly (particularly the confucian ideas of class, status and every individual knowing his or her place in a rigid social order - see also China) I’d also blame a high-population, small landmass (why are most cities, anywhere in the world, less friendly than country areas?), and a history of regional (inter-korean) strife, most notably in the three-kingdoms period. But I wouldn’t blame Japan.
But Japan _is_ known as a country of good public etiquette and I believe it was in those days as well.
If the bad parts of Japan’s rule affected Korea so strongly, why so didn’t the good aspects?
BTW, I believe that the old Chinese reference to Korea as a “country of courtesy” reflected Korea’s adherence to ritualized court etiquette, and not to public behavior.