Comments on: Be careful of what you say… even if it’s true http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/ Korea... in Blog Format Fri, 5 Sep 2008 18:26:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Some Reviews of Books on Korea, Part 3: The Labor Movement « The Grand Narrative http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-122444 Some Reviews of Books on Korea, Part 3: The Labor Movement « The Grand Narrative Sun, 09 Dec 2007 10:44:16 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-122444 [...] means fully democratized even in ”soft” areas like freedom of expression yet (see here too for a notorious recent libel case). Overall, it seems to have moved little beyond [...] [...] means fully democratized even in ”soft” areas like freedom of expression yet (see here too for a notorious recent libel case). Overall, it seems to have moved little beyond [...]

]]> By: wjk http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81235 wjk Mon, 07 May 2007 03:55:50 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81235 yeah, like Mr. Carr said, some of those people have tags like " Lied about being married. Lied about having 3 kids. Due to that condition, one of his lovers chose abortion." I mean, Korean men do that too, and don't get black listed per say, but the native bully with the citizenship always kinds of gives a hard time to foreigners. Not that I'm saying it's right. It's wrong, still. yeah, like Mr. Carr said, some of those people have tags like

” Lied about being married. Lied about having 3 kids. Due to that condition, one of his lovers chose abortion.”

I mean, Korean men do that too, and don’t get black listed per say, but the native bully with the citizenship always kinds of gives a hard time to foreigners. Not that I’m saying it’s right. It’s wrong, still.

]]> By: Brendon Carr http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81233 Brendon Carr Mon, 07 May 2007 01:53:15 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81233 <blockquote>Now, what I'm curious about is whether any of the English teachers on the Korea Foreign Teacher Recruiting Association's <a href="http://www.kftra.co.kr/black_list.asp" rel="nofollow">blacklist</a> has ever filed charges for libel. Or violating Korean labor laws. Or both. My guess is probably not.</blockquote> The Korean Foreign Teachers' Recruiting Association is so wrong it's not even funny. Besides the defamatory aspect of the statements about the teachers, the relevant article of the Labor Standards Act is Art. 39, which forbids blacklisting: <i>"No person shall prepare and use secret signs or lists, or have communications, for the purpose of interfering with employment of a worker."</i> Violations of Art. 39 shall be punished by a term of imprisonment for up to five years, or a fine of up to W30 million. There are other, Korean-admitted, lawyers posting comments to the Marmot's Hole. For example, I'm pretty sure that "Winnie" and "~*" are lawyers. If the so-called English-teacher community were able to organize itself, a group of complainants could chip in some small amount -- say, W300,000 -- apiece to hire one of these lawyers to prepare and file a criminal complaint. A group of thirty-five such plaintiffs could get themselves a lawyer. However, the persons "defamed" on the KFTRA website are in all likelihood just as irresponsible as described -- which means they can scarcely organize a beer run. Without the direct complaint by the parties defamed, nothing can or will be done. And, to be frank, I personally don't like speech-chilling litigation or threats of litigation; in a better legal system, I don't think anything <b>should</b> be done.

Now, what I’m curious about is whether any of the English teachers on the Korea Foreign Teacher Recruiting Association’s blacklist has ever filed charges for libel. Or violating Korean labor laws. Or both.

My guess is probably not.

The Korean Foreign Teachers’ Recruiting Association is so wrong it’s not even funny.

Besides the defamatory aspect of the statements about the teachers, the relevant article of the Labor Standards Act is Art. 39, which forbids blacklisting:

“No person shall prepare and use secret signs or lists, or have communications, for the purpose of interfering with employment of a worker.”

Violations of Art. 39 shall be punished by a term of imprisonment for up to five years, or a fine of up to W30 million. There are other, Korean-admitted, lawyers posting comments to the Marmot’s Hole. For example, I’m pretty sure that “Winnie” and “~*” are lawyers. If the so-called English-teacher community were able to organize itself, a group of complainants could chip in some small amount — say, W300,000 — apiece to hire one of these lawyers to prepare and file a criminal complaint. A group of thirty-five such plaintiffs could get themselves a lawyer.

However, the persons “defamed” on the KFTRA website are in all likelihood just as irresponsible as described — which means they can scarcely organize a beer run. Without the direct complaint by the parties defamed, nothing can or will be done. And, to be frank, I personally don’t like speech-chilling litigation or threats of litigation; in a better legal system, I don’t think anything should be done.

]]> By: Maddlew http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81232 Maddlew Mon, 07 May 2007 00:56:28 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81232 If the parents and politicians did more than pay lip service to their childrens education the remedies would be forthcoming. They say they don't want to mess with this multi-billion won monster hogwan industry yet it has become monstrous. If they made it less of a mine field for sincere, educated teachers then it would be better able to attract them. The quality of the pool would go up and they could be more selective with who they hire. If I am disallowed from citing specific instances of managerial abuse then all my arguments lack teeth. I have no recourse. The remedies will have to come from people with the power and the desire to promote change. If the parents and politicians did more than pay lip service to their childrens education the remedies would be forthcoming.
They say they don’t want to mess with this multi-billion won monster hogwan industry yet it has become monstrous. If they made it less of a mine field for sincere, educated teachers then it would be better able to attract them. The quality of the pool would go up and they could be more selective with who they hire.
If I am disallowed from citing specific instances of managerial abuse then all my arguments lack teeth. I have no recourse. The remedies will have to come from people with the power and the desire to promote change.

]]> By: Maddlew http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81231 Maddlew Mon, 07 May 2007 00:13:06 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81231 Unjust adj. Not just or fair. Hey, it may be a neo-logism, but it's in there. One of the highlights of its use was by Steve Martin to Rick Moranis in "My Blue Heaven". Unjust adj. Not just or fair. Hey, it may be a neo-logism, but it’s in there.
One of the highlights of its use was by Steve Martin to Rick Moranis in “My Blue Heaven”.

]]> By: Sonagi http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81214 Sonagi Sun, 06 May 2007 14:40:29 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81214 PS, Brendon, maybe you could team up with the very informative Leefr. :) PS, Brendon, maybe you could team up with the very informative Leefr. :)

]]> By: Sonagi http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81213 Sonagi Sun, 06 May 2007 14:39:18 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81213 Brendon, Is there an English-language book that explains legal problems commonly encountered by individual foreign nationals in Korea? If not, have you thought about writing one? You often remark about how lawyers like to get paid yet generously provide practical information about the Korean legal system. It appears that Joe and many other foreigners run into trouble because they are unaware of the Korean legal system. Brendon,

Is there an English-language book that explains legal problems commonly encountered by individual foreign nationals in Korea? If not, have you thought about writing one? You often remark about how lawyers like to get paid yet generously provide practical information about the Korean legal system. It appears that Joe and many other foreigners run into trouble because they are unaware of the Korean legal system.

]]> By: Newton Kabiddles http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81211 Newton Kabiddles Sun, 06 May 2007 14:19:45 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81211 Is what the person wrote online about the person who claims defamation still available? What's unjust? Is what the person wrote online about the person who claims defamation still available?
What’s unjust?

]]> By: Brendon Carr http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81210 Brendon Carr Sun, 06 May 2007 13:33:43 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81210 Stop thinking in terms of "injustice" and start thinking in terms of <b>remedies</b>. Yes, it's unjust. But what remedy do we seek? Civil ones stink, especially if you're hiring counsel to try to get them for you. Stop thinking in terms of “injustice” and start thinking in terms of remedies. Yes, it’s unjust. But what remedy do we seek? Civil ones stink, especially if you’re hiring counsel to try to get them for you.

]]> By: Maddlew http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81209 Maddlew Sun, 06 May 2007 13:25:23 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/05/02/be-careful-of-what-you-say-even-if-its-true/#comment-81209 Yes, but apparently it's alright that she slandered him during a few phone calls to his next employer. Many of you folks have no problem with this but are bent over some rich ancestors of Japanese collaborators because they got a little jack yanked from their gravy train? Look, I understand the precedents. But please, someone at least inform the legal brain-trust here that UNJUST harm only occurs when the information leaked is BS. How many cans of spam did it take to get these laws in the books? Yes, but apparently it’s alright that she slandered him during a few phone calls to his next employer.
Many of you folks have no problem with this but are bent over some rich ancestors of Japanese collaborators because they got a little jack yanked from their gravy train?
Look, I understand the precedents. But please, someone at least inform the legal brain-trust here that UNJUST harm only occurs when the information leaked is BS.
How many cans of spam did it take to get these laws in the books?

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