For those of you who think Koreans avoid asking the difficult questions, the front page of this morning’s Hankyoreh Shinmun (Korean) asked, “If a ‘Seung-hui Cho’ incident happened in Korea, how would we react?” The English version of that piece can be found here.
Since the shooting, I’d noticed quite a few netizens asking the same question over at Naver.com, with some even bringing up the 2002 anti-American demonstrations. I predicted early on that much like the Hines Ward story, the tragedy at Virginia Tech might get media and netizens tackling difficult questions such as identity and collective guilt/responsibility. And I think that’s evidence that things are moving in the right direction here.
Speaking of Hines Ward and the Hankyoreh (English), Cheju National University sociology professor Choi Hyeon penned a column in the paper discussing Seung-hui Cho, Hines Ward and the problems of a society occupied with bloodlines.
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Cho’s time in the U.S. and the American influence would be blamed. All would be revealed.
Good to see the Hankie tackling this…
Yes, why does a Korean citizen’s name use the forename + surname “Western” pattern (i.e. Seung-hui Cho) in the vernacular report?
Hmmm.
It’s not really “tackling” the big question. This kind of stuff comes up all the time, but always about other immigrants. There is no mention of anti-Americanism.
The big question here, I think, is this: “Why is it that Americans are not blaming Koreans for this tragedy, and Koreans blame Americans for just about everything?”
The Hankie might want to get rid of the Google ad at the top of the page that says “Korean girls seek foreign men for dating and marriage”–unless that’s part of the new acceptance of foreigners
Koreans are not the only immigrants who face difficulties in the U.S. Kids are cruel and foreigners, over-weight children, and albinos are not immune. That being said, bullying and cruelty is more commonplace in Korean schools than in P.S. 123 in the states. In Korea we have the whole class rank thing. It is like WestPoint meets the Lord of the Flies.
West Point meets Lord of the Flies. Well put.
It’s I think a step in the right direction to ask the question, but then the article seems to dodge the question.
It was short and did a kind of two step around the ugly underbelly, never exploring it thoroughly.
When I read the headline I thought, “It’s about time.”
Again, I am underwhelmed.
“Most Koreans see the [Virginia Tech] tragedy as a cause for shame and guilt, instead of considering it an incident caused by structural problems in American society…”
Do we have to see the murderous rampage as caused by American society?? I was agreeing with the tone and thrust of this article until this stinger.
Regarding the question, how would “we” react…that really depends on the nationality. Either U.S or Canadian, most ppl residing in North America would probably associate the person as having a mental illness, but as a single incident rather than of a whole nation or race. If you were going to ask how would Korean ppl react…that is a different story. I think for Western society we do not put blame on a whole nation, culture, society for the faults of one person. As stated before I think the Koreans who apologized for Cho, did so because they were afraid of the backlash which may/have occurred.
all of this is absolutely ridiculous. koreans don’t need to examine anything nor do they need to ask the hard questions. this incident happened in america not south korea. this act was perpatrated by an individual who was enculturated in the states not south korea. if anything, it’s america that’s got to do some soul searching as to why these things happen here so often.
you know, it was funny to see how most of you reacted when all of this came out, most of you rushed right out to tell us about some mass shooting by a police officer in the 90s. you all sang in unison that the cause was human nature not society. your song’s theme was america ain’t responsible and yet, you’d have korea wringing it’s hands asking why.
man, and you wonder why i got no respect for most of you?
no need to talk about this anymore, korea. you’ve got nothing to do with cho seung hui.
Pawi wrote:
“this act was perpatrated by an individual who was enculturated in the states not south korea.”
Cho spent the first eight years of his life in South Korea and was raised by two non-English speaking Korean parents. His cultural identity was not the same as an assimilated American with no other ethnic background or even a 2nd or 3rd generation Korea-American. In any case, it is dubious to make ties between either culture and the deed.
Amen, Pawi. Railway’s remark in #6 was absolutely ridiculous (as usual). This coming from a guy who was born in the US and survived the school systems here.
Some difficult questions for Americans to answer are discussed in this KT op-ed piece. While I was reading it, I thought, “Wow! I can’t believe some expat wrote this.” Then I got to the author’s name at the bottom – a Georgetown University law professor.
https://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2007/04/24/200704240029.asp
http://news.naver.com/hotissue.....on_id2=307
How come this political cartoon won’t make Occ’s list?
You’ll be offend by the top, but maybe pleased by the bottom…
By the way, the author of Bever’s rant subject published a follow up apology toon, and South Koreans took it negatively, because the folk in the toon had smiling faces. Cultural difference….
How would Coreans react? Only one way to find out….
JK, I don’t have to attend Korean public schools to know what is going on. If you can not come to terms with the fact that bullying is a matter of course in K-school systems, you are more hopeless than I previously surmised. If you have a better explanation, my web-toed friend, we are all waiting?
And pawi, you are correct! The fact that Koreans are falling over themselves to apologize is racist and egotistical to its core.
The hard questions I would want asked in Korea have nothing to do with the VT case.
1. Was there a deliberate conspiracy by all the Korean media to wildly misreport the 2002 schoolgirl accident and its handling by US authorities? Was the DJ administration involved?
2. Why is it that the Hankyoreh, based on the cartoon linked above, still can’t differentiate between a vehicular accident and mass homicide?
“JK, I don’t have to attend Korean public schools to know what is going on. If you can not come to terms with the fact that bullying is a matter of course in K-school systems, you are more hopeless than I previously surmised. If you have a better explanation, my web-toed friend, we are all waiting?”
You are so ignorant and deceptive, railwaycharm. I never said that bullying didn’t exist in Korea. But it is not, as you said, “….like WestPoint meets the Lord of the Flies.” I have friends and family members who were recently in the school system in Korea and had their fair share of stress but as far as it being the hellhole you claim, you are full of it.
Furthermore, I have been in the US public school system and know what kids are capable of. And either you are the bully, you are the victim, or you are the adapter always walking on your toes so that you don’t get bullied. Plus, the growing gang problem in American schools, particpated in by – to upper-class students is a growing problem.
Why are YOUR negative opinions, be they about Koreans or kyopos, supposedly legit but any claims by Asians or Asian-Americans about white Americans dismissed? You keep confirming the negative stereotype of the white American expat. So sad.
That answers my rhetorical question as to whether I am considered a Canadian-Korean since I have a landed immigrant visa…which brings up another question: Why am I a ‘permanent resident’, an ‘expatriate’, an ‘alien resident’ or simply a ‘foreigner’ but not a ‘landed-immigrant’?
Speaking of how strangers treat people who look different…My son is Korean, but he looks just like I do. So, yesterday we were minding our own business trying to shop in peace when two kids, as soon as they entered the store, started pointing at us, shouting, “Look, foreigners!”. The mother didn’t do anything. I mean, really. What’s with that? God forbid I would have told the kids to get lost…but it’s okay for her kids to treat mine like a caged animal?
BTW, Korea needs more like-minded people as Professor Choi Hyeon.
SomeguyinKorea,
What those kids did was wrong and the mother should have told the kids that what they did was wrong.
But, in reality, Korean parents rarely teach their kids the fundamentals of what is right and what is wrong. Instead they teach them to do whatever it is necessary to suceed. They only discipline kids if their grades have fallen or if they have done something to bring shame to the family. And sadly not treating someone else with respect isn’t one of them.
That’s the reason why the society and the people act like they do now.
Well, credit to the Hankie for broaching the topic of Korea’s acceptance of immigrants and non-Koreans, since Korea is seeing more and more such people.
Thanks for the post, Robert. I was very happy to see that Prof. Choi’s piece was printed in the Korean edition as well. Perhaps the Hankyoreh is turning over a new leaf.
Someone mentioned that we expat commenters were blaming Korea instead of America. I don’t think that is true. I think most of us are saying that:
1. While gun violence may be more prevalent in the U.S. than Korea, in Korea there have been mass killings, including the Daegu subway arson (committed by a mentally ill person with a grudge), the recent series of rapes/serial killings (committed by a man with a a grudge), the string of soldiers going nuts and shooting numerous comrades (including an incident this week), and so on. So no, this is not solely a problem with American society.
2. Was Cho Korean or American? I agree that Cho’s writings and actions could have been the same as any similarly diaffected white kid. Certainly he was socialized by U.S. society, going to school there from the 3rd grade. On the other hand, as Sonagi notes, his family life was in no way like that of your typical white American family. It is impossible to say that his Korean-style home life had no effect on him. Many reports have pointed to the stress caused by the fact that his parents were disappointed that their daughter did so much better academically than their son, for example.
The other point with this is that it is amusing to see Koreans and Korean Americans overly stress that Cho (or Yoo Seung-jun, for that matter) is really American, not Korean, when they were so eager to say that Michelle Wie (et al.) was really Korean, not American. We see through your cherry picking and hypocrisy there.
dogbertt,
I agree that Korean society is hypocritical when it comes to some issues.
However I wouldn’t jump the gun on Michelle Wie. From what I have read and heard, only her father, not the Korean and/or Korean American society as a whole stressed that she id Korean. And that was during an interview with a Korean newspaper. Most probably her father said those words in order to please her Korean fan base and sponsors.
As a general rule, when a Korean-American does something well (and keep in mind, it was front page news in the Korea Times when a Korean-American student became Harvard’s student body president), Koreans in Korea will claim that that person’s success is due to his Korean parents (i.e., Korean home values instilled, although living in America), Korean respect for education (impliedly more resepct than Americans give education), or his Korean mother (a la Hines Ward, because “Korean mothers love their children more than American mothers”).
I’m just asking that they do the same in regard to Seung Cho, for consistency’s sake.
“Speaking of how strangers treat people who look different…My son is Korean, but he looks just like I do. So, yesterday we were minding our own business trying to shop in peace when two kids, as soon as they entered the store, started pointing at us, shouting, “Look, foreigners!”. The mother didn’t do anything. I mean, really. What’s with that? God forbid I would have told the kids to get lost…but it’s okay for her kids to treat mine like a caged animal?”
Precisely the kind of thing that my three year old son – dual citizen, knows Korean and English – gets to experience a few times a week. The attention generally seems more positive than negative in its intent, but the parents accompanying their children seldom consider my little guy might not appreciate it. This is one of the few things I won’t miss about Korea when we move to Canada in a couple of years.
“the Koreans who apologized for Cho, did so because they were afraid of the backlash which may/have occurred.”
In addition to the genuine concerns and sadness coming from Korea, I wonder how self-interested were their motives. The backlash Koreans were worried about was perhaps ‘discrimination’ against the entry of Koreans to American schools.
Didn’t we see a strikingly similar fear and shame after Hwang Woo-Suk? “Oh, our national reputation!” translates into missed opportunities for ME, dammit.
Railwaycharm in #6 sounds right to me.
Geez, sorry for the cynicism…
Fear not dogbertt, you’ll get plenty of consistency.
Webster’s Korean Dictionary
con·sis·ten·cy (kən-sĭs’tən-sē) n., pl. -cies.
Engaging in irrational disagreement, hypocrisy, or logical incoherence, in an attempt to maintain a positive image of the Korean nation or people, or to deny a situation, event, or individual that may reflect negatively upon it or them.
Ex: There is absolute consistency in the Korean media’s treatment of the importance and influence of Korean cultural factors in the achievements of both Hines Ward and Cho Seung Hui.
It is a good time for a Korean president(who else could do it?) to tell the Korean nation that
1. Koreans are a part of the world. (not a totally separate people)
2. All foreigners are important part of the Miracle of Han River. They should be treated as such.
3. Do not discriminate foreign kids in the school system.
4. Koreans should really re-examine their view of the world. Koreans are a part of human race and therefore do actions that benefit the world.
5. Koreans should not be so selfish that they kill, attack, injure and discriminate against foreigners.
etc, etc.
A little education by the president will help steer the country to the right direction but Rho may not do it. He doesn’t believe 1 thru 5 himself.
One poster on here can’t seem to find his capitalization key.
Please consider deleting his comments as they are painful, both in form and content, to read.
I find them morally and grammatically offensive, in other words.
Let’s get serious around here, people. No more crap. There’s a new sheriff in town, as we’ve all heard.
Tell that offender to start using the Caps key or to find another blog to desecrate.
Thanks.
The amazingly erratic Kim Dae-joong in the Chosun weighed in on all this in yet another “blame America” piece:
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....30036.html
According to him, simply by going to school in the U.S., “Not all of them, of course, but the children of many Korean emigrants, lived lives without pride or community consciousness, and eventually ended up on the wrong side of the tracks. In the end, many Koreans who went to America for the sake of their children’s education saw their children ruined by it instead.”
What a crock of shit, with no specific data of any kind to back it up. And why wasn’t Kim warning Korean parents of the insidious nature of the U.S. education system years ago if he knew it was this bad? Oh wait, he’s an opportunistic moralizing dumbass, nevermind.
He quotes some woman saying these “children have no cultural education or manners” (just like their parents!) and then contradicts himself with “that way they can’t dream of getting into college” (yet he’s describing U.S. university students).
He really stretches to say American education fails Korean students because “Too many youngsters live only for themselves, have no regard for others in the street, in restaurants, in traffic, in theaters and public spaces” rather more accurately describes the outcome of being raised in Korea.
Any foreigner with young kids in Korea, like Globalvillageidiot and someguyinKorea, seems to encounter this same problem of racist treatment from Korean kids. If Korea had affordable education for foreign children, the problem could be more tolerable. As it is, the choice foreign parents face is between shelling out 20 grand a year for a foreign school, or racist bullying at a Korean school. No wonder so many foreigners eventually leave Korea.
the reaction of people in south korea should have been one of being offended by the very notion that korea had anything to do with cho’s actions.
those who argue that cho lived 8 years of his life in korea and thus, is a korean, must be implying that cho grew up in a violent society. yet, these statements come from the very same people who would choose any street in any part of seoul at three in morning over any street in some black ghetto here in the states. these people are fooling themselves and seem defensive. they seem to object to any call for a look at violence in america while they advise korea to ask some hard questions. ain’t that the epitome of double speak?
‘In addition to the genuine concerns and sadness coming from Korea, I wonder how self-interested were their motives. The backlash Koreans were worried about was perhaps ‘discrimination’ against the entry of Koreans to American schools.
Didn’t we see a strikingly similar fear and shame after Hwang Woo-Suk? “Oh, our national reputation!”’ alethieia
may i ask why you breathed a sigh of relief when you found out it wasn’t one of you? nuff said. thanks.
So who’s advancing that? It’s a chimera.
Nope, he’s a Korean because he holds Korean citizenship, for whatever reason having decided not to become a U.S. citizen.
You keep harping on blacks. I don’t recall there being a ghetto in Monterey.
When an American soldier murdered a Korean prostitute in 1999 in Itaewon the general Korean reaction was that she was a prostitute, and although it was a horrible crime it was not surprising considering the life she had chosen.
Which is exactly how Americans react when prostitutes are murdered in the USA.
In the current situation some news media are milking the killer’s ethnicity for all it’s worth. But in reality it’s just a deranged person with no racial agenda, no accomplices, no mention of America or Korea, no specific targeting…So far there was not one single hint/clue left by the killer that he was in anyway concerned about his ethnicity or the victims’ ethnicities.
I see no reason to think Koreans would have a different reaction if the same thing had occurred in Korea.
If an American were to say, “I feel a bit nervous about Koreans retaliating against innocent Americans in Seoul” they are not projecting their culture on Korea? But when a Korean says the same thing in America it is viewed as Koreans projecting their culture?
“Typically, Koreans treat immigrants as expatriates because they aren’t ethnic Koreans. If one were to commit a crime similar to that of Seung-hui Cho, ethnic Koreans would consider him as a non-Korean, as still being a member of the society from which he initially came,”
Yes, same in the USA but just a differnt point in development. If a Chinese person had done this in Blacksburg Virginia in 1820 his entire family would have been strung up and burned to death.
pabsthooligan” “The big question here, I think, is this: “Why is it that Americans are not blaming Koreans for this tragedy, and Koreans blame Americans for just about everything?”
What makes you think Koreans blame Americans for everything? When Americans have a problem do they think about Korea? What the fack are you talking about?
“Yes, same in the USA but just a differnt point in development. If a Chinese person had done this in Blacksburg Virginia in 1820 his entire family would have been strung up and burned to death.”
Hardyandtiny:
While I find that you might be exaggerating here, I certainly see your point. But do you really want to imply that we have to wait for another 180 years or so for the ROK to catch up ?
You know, we live in a globalised world, and this concept requires the countries wanting to benefit from the advantages (some clearly could not care less, e.g. Simbabwe, DRPK…) to adopt effective minimum standards for the prevention of the discrimination of foreigners and ethnic minorities.
I fully realise that things in the ROK have improved a lot, but the “minjok” idea, with the corresponding exclusion of those who are not part of it, is still very much alive and kicking…
wjk wrote:
“You’ll be offend by the top, but maybe pleased by the bottom…”
Thanks for the link to yet another tasteless editorial cartoon. The entire cartoon is offensive and totally misses the real point – that Americans can forgive Cho, but Koreans can’t forgive a vehicle accident which the US army apologized for several times.
Over on one of the GI blogs, there’s an interesting bit about Korea’s favorable SOFAs with East Timor and Iraq and how Korean soldiers ran over a Timorese and shot to death an Iraqi interpreter and weren’t tried in local courts. I won’t expect to see any cartoons about either of those deaths.
“What makes you think Koreans blame Americans for everything?”
Oh, nothing at all, except for my 5 years of experience in the ROK…
But, actually, not each and every problem is blamed on the hapless Americans. Only those problems that Japan cannot possibly brought into connection with…
Hardyntiny wrote:
When an American soldier murdered a Korean prostitute in 1999 in Itaewon the general Korean reaction was that she was a prostitute, and although it was a horrible crime it was not surprising considering the life she had chosen.
Which is exactly how Americans react when prostitutes are murdered in the USA.”
You’re kidding, right? Ms. Yun became a national martyr. Along Chongno St. in downtown Seoul, college students would parade photos of her mutilated body and solicit signatures for a petition. Her name and image continue to be used in anti-American and anti-USFK demonstrations.
“In the current situation some news media are milking the killer’s ethnicity for all it’s worth.”
Specific examples with verifiable links, please. Thanks.
And I’m saying this although I have, my American flag notwithstanding, not really much to do with the US…
Fantasy
“While I find that you might be exaggerating here, I certainly see your point. But do you really want to imply that we have to wait for another 180 years or so for the ROK to catch up ?”
No, I think Korea is just slightly lagging and would probably have the same reaction if the same thing happened in Korea. I was just making a point that things change over time. Korea is an advanced stable country. There will always be idiots who spit on people or harass others in both countries. America is not perfect, some Koreans have been harassed.
“I fully realise that things in the ROK have improved a lot, but the “minjok” idea, with the corresponding exclusion of those who are not part of it, is still very much alive and kicking.”
The Sopranos are a big hit. Is it 100% fiction? Is it only like that with Italian-Americans?
“What makes you think Koreans blame Americans for everything?”
“Oh, nothing at all, except for my 5 years of experience in the ROK…”
What did you think about Koreans before you came to Korea?
“You’re kidding, right? Ms. Yun became a national martyr. Along Chongno St. in downtown Seoul, college students would parade photos of her mutilated body and solicit signatures for a petition. Her name and image continue to be used in anti-American and anti-USFK demonstrations.”
I think you’re referring to a different murder – I’m not sure. I’m referring to Specialist McCarthy murdering a prostitute in Itaewon around 1999. Not mutilated. The prostitue was strangled to death. I was living here then and the Korean media emphasized her occupation. There were no massive protests at all. No one cared. The general feeling was that she was scum and did not matter.
Instead of asking the difficult questions, how about asking the easy ones…like…where can I buy a couple hundred 9mm rounds in Seoul?
Yes…a much easier question than “한국판 ‘승희 조’ 사건 나면 우린 어떤 반응 했을까?” and yet so much more difficult to answer….
“Specific examples with verifiable links, please. Thanks.”
The article cited in this original post.
“What did you think about Koreans before you came to Korea?”
Hardyandtiny.
Do not get me wrong here – I did not want to open another round of Korea-bashing. While I uphold the contents of my comments above I also see that you have some valid points, as well.
Your request to lay open what I thought about Koreans before I actually came to Korea is much more complicated to fulfill than you probably expected.
In the 1981 – as a 16-year-old German, but Indian-looking, teenager, resident with my parents in Singapore, I went to Seoul once, in order to accompany my father on a business trip. I
Continuation of my comment above:
In the 1981 – as a 16-year-old German, but Indian-looking, teenager, resident with my parents in Singapore – I went to Seoul once, in order to accompany my father on a business trip. I quite liked the place then, although it did not look anything like the modern thriving city of now…
At that time I had a fairly good impression of Korea and the Koreans. Definitely no negative pejudices…
But, as from 1985, back in Europe at the age of 20, I ran into continuous trouble with a number of Yuhaksaeng who were studying there. Some Yuhaksaeng and I simply do not mix, for a whole number of reasons. Okay, you might say that this must have been my fault, at least in part. This would be the obvious explanation, but I honestly do not believe it is the correct one.
The problems continued until I got married to a Korean national in 1999 and we, due to her having obtained a place at Chungbuk National University, moved to Korea together in early 2000. We left again in 2004 after my wife had graduated, majoring in Chemistry. This was a good basis for her to get admitted into one of the leading German Medical schools which she, as of now, still attends…
That should have read “In 1981…”
And, in order to understand the situation of the Yuhaksaeng in Europe better I must add that, unlike in the US, some of them stay on for a really long time. E.g. I know of a Korean student, who came to Germany in the late 1980s to learn German, which took her about 4 years. In the early 1990 she enrolled as an undergraduate, in the late 1990s then as a postgraduate at a German university. Presently she is doing her Ph.D at another university in Germany.
That should have read “So as to make it easier for you to understand the situation of the Yuhaksaeng in Europe…”
Edumacation is free in Germany, right? These Korean students who enroll in free language classes, followed by free university for a B.A., M.A., and Ph.D., then go on to get another Ph.D. — they are hiding out!
Why are you steering towards Korean students in Germany to discuss how Koreans blame everything on Americans?
Kim Dae-joong (Chosun) misfires about as often as pawi does and we’ll always now where Kim stands because we always know where his foot is. I’m surprised he waited so long before wading into the Cho case.
“…that Americans can forgive Cho, but Koreans can’t forgive a vehicle accident which the US army apologized for several times.”
Americans are not forgiving Cho and the comparison to the army accident makes no sense.
A schizophrenic killed people
I requested:
““Specific examples with verifiable links, please. Thanks.” (referring to Hardyandtiny’s complaint that some media were milking Cho’s ethnicity for all its worth)
Hardyandtiny responded:
“The article cited in this original post.”
Both articles are from Korean media, so it seems you are accusing the Korean media of “milking Cho’s ethnicity.”
“Why are you steering towards Korean students in Germany to discuss how Koreans blame everything on Americans?”
Hardyandtiny,
because you asked me the following question:
“What did you think about Koreans before you came to Korea?”
“…the comparison to the army accident makes no sense.”
No, indeed, it does not. That would mean comparing an accident to deliberate mass-murder (even if performed by a schizophrenic killer).
Someguyinkorea wrote:
“Speaking of how strangers treat people who look different…My son is Korean, but he looks just like I do. So, yesterday we were minding our own business trying to shop in peace when two kids, as soon as they entered the store, started pointing at us, shouting, ‘Look, foreigners!’. The mother didn’t do anything. I mean, really. What’s with that? God forbid I would have told the kids to get lost…but it’s okay for her kids to treat mine like a caged animal?”
I’ve heard much worse here in America from white Americans….aimed at me….when I was, as you say, trying to keep the peace.
The difference is….I responded and told them to shut the f*ck up and learn some manners….then I made a negative comment back about blue-collar rednecks (using much profanity). First they were like shocked I could speak English (this was in the South)….then one guy and I nearly got into it until some people had to separate us. Oh yeah, it wasn’t just with whites….I have had the same experience with African-Americans….who were random strangers I had never met before.
But while I find the Korean kids’ and their mother’s behavior deplorable, I must wonder why Western expats like you don’t respond. That has been a key behavior feature I have noticed of many Western expats: Complain up and down on blogs and to other Westerners about Koreans….but don’t say anything to Koreans when faced with what the Westerner may perceive to be bad behavior by Koreans. I mean…you stewed….meanwhile, the mother or her kids won’t change since they didn’t hear from you (in Korean) that you found their behavior toward you and your son deplorable. You blame the gov’t or the Korean school system….well why didn’t you do anything? I mean after all, it’s your son.
There are now quite a few white and black Americans in the South who used to think they could make passing comments to random Asians like myself who won’t do so again because of what I said to them…..in English. #1, they learned we Asian-Americans can speak English. #2, they learned we Asian-Americans can talk our own sh*t and get just as nasty.
Ever thought about reacting in Korea as you would if you were treated this way in America? Just say it to them in their own tongue (Korean). If you can’t….well, then you know what it’s like to be a non-English-speaking person in America who hears sh*t regularly.
But passivity doesn’t always win out. And if you were passive….don’t complain about it.
But then again, why does an accident, for which some American GIs seem to be responsible, stir up so much hatred in Korea, whereas apparently there is clear the expectation of Koreans that a deliberate mass-murder, for which a schizophrenic Korean killer (with a permanent residence permit for the US) is clearly to be faulted, should be handled with complete equanimity by the Americans ?
Now, please do not take this to mean that Americans SHOULD react now like many Koreans did after the 2002 accident. I am merely trying to point out the striking contrast…
JK,
my last post was not directed at you, but was a reply to Hardyandtiny…
“There are now quite a few white and black Americans in the South who used to think they could make passing comments to random Asians like myself who won’t do so again because of what I said to them…..in English. #1, they learned we Asian-Americans can speak English. #2, they learned we Asian-Americans can talk our own sh*t and get just as nasty.
Ever thought about reacting in Korea as you would if you were treated this way in America? Just say it to them in their own tongue (Korean). If you can’t….well, then you know what it’s like to be a non-English-speaking person in America who hears sh*t regularly.
But passivity doesn’t always win out. And if you were passive….don’t complain about it.”
That is actually quite good advice JK is giving here. I think that those still in Korea should follow it, and also I should have acted in this manner when I was there. Maybe I was just too worried to bring myself (and my wife, when we were together in public) into trouble. But, JK is right, I should have been a little bit more courageous…
“Cho may never have given up Korean citizenship, but if he grew up there since the third grade, he is, in terms of mindset and cultural association, at least over 50 percent a child of American society.”
I have worked it out algebraically. He was, sorry to say, 56.837% Korean.
If he makes it as Time’s Person of the Year, as Bin Laden almost did in 2001, something positive for Koreans may come out of this.
19 JK, I am an American. I don’t cling on to my race like yourself or the other self-loathing crowd you hold ragged company with. Why is it that so many of your type run off to the States to get out of the ROK, yet call me an ex-pat? What are you? You have such a pathological strangle hold on your race that you don’t see the point of this thread or this blog for that matter. Hell-hole? Maybe… You don’t tend to see American High School students kill themselves when they don’t pass the SATs with a high enough score to get into an acceptable school? Enjoy your special parking spot, mind the cane, and pet your dog.
Hardyandtiny wrote:
“Americans are not forgiving Cho and the comparison to the army accident makes no sense.”
Some Americans are. There is a memorial stone for Cho along with the 32 other stones on the VT campus.
“The comparison to the army accident makes no sense?” Tell that to Naver,
http://news.naver.com/hotissue.....ffice_id=0 28&article_id=0000195712§ion_id=110§ion_id2=307
whose cartoon was linked in a previous post by wjk. It was that very cartoon that I was commenting on when I made the distinction between the two events.
“19 JK, I am an American. I don’t cling on to my race like yourself or the other self-loathing crowd you hold ragged company with.”
More wrong presumptions by railwaycharm. What else is new?
So you don’t make racial identifications, eh? Aren’t you the one who is always categorizing negatively “kyopos”? Very much an us-versus-them feel to your comments, railway.
“Why is it that so many of your type run off to the States to get out of the ROK, yet call me an ex-pat?”
I ran off nowhere, railway. I was born in the US. Now, my FAMILY came to America….as did yours. The only difference between you and me (actually, I hope there’s more than one) is that you I don’t demand that you be like my ethnic group…and that the rest of the world behave like me and that anybody who doesn’t has something wrong with her/her. Furthermore, I don’t whine about racism like you do and then deny claims of racism by other ethnic groups.
“What are you? You have such a pathological strangle hold on your race that you don’t see the point of this thread or this blog for that matter.”
You mind making sense? What the heck are you talking about? Stranglehold on my race??? Aren’t you the guy who has continually criticized (usually without grounds) kyopos? What does that make you?? Hypocrite.
“Hell-hole? Maybe… You don’t tend to see American High School students kill themselves when they don’t pass the SATs with a high enough score to get into an acceptable school? Enjoy your special parking spot, mind the cane, and pet your dog.”
I see. So based on what YOU think (which we all know is nonsensical) I guess all my friends and family members who endured the Korean school system are prone to suicide if they don’t do well on their college entrance exams (and NOT SATs, which is an American thing).
Man, you have SO much to learn. As such, you are in NO position to be lecturing others about seeing the world around them. Go on and be blind and think you are right and that I am wrong. Live your little fairytale world.
It’s amazing how comment threads get tangled up into a mess while the sheriff is sleeping.
Stand up? Don’t take it? That is the most unrealistic, myopic thing I have ever heard.
About a month ago I was waiting for my bus out near Shiheung when a woman getting off a bus got hit by a cup of water thrown by a boy on the third floor of a stairwell. Like an idiot, I ran up and tried to confront him. There were about eight high school boys up there. I demanded who did it. They shrugged then one started screaming in Korean and ended each sentence with, “Ok?” Suddenly I was slapped on the back of the head. When I turned I was pushed down a few steps. Then a fist caught me on the side of the head. I hit the nearest one as hard as I could with an open palm right across the cheek. It sounded like a fire-cracker.
The stairway quickly emptied but I grabbed the one I had hit, forced him into the bathroom and told him to get some toilet paper. I then made him go downstairs and help the woman clean up. She was still complaining to some man there but allowed the boy to daub at her, all the while ranting to the same man. The boy seemed extremely apologetic at this point.
I found a bus and got on it. As the bus was pulling away a few boys ran out and started pounding on the side. One was screaming, “Hey, hey. I am Korean.”
Do you realize how stupid what I did was? Nine out of ten times I would have ended up in the hospital or jail. If I have an altercation with a Korean I am guilty until proven innocent. Period! You can’t have a fair fight here, it is never one on one. Believe me, they are into piling on. I have also seen some horrible accidents and watched while busloads of children, some of them teens, laughed at the writhing injured.
You folks had better wake up. America has some problems but they are different and are static. They haven’t changed for years. What you’ve got here is brewing. It’s going to get much worse.
There was a comment by a woman named Susan on the Metropolitician the other day you should all read. She’s a Korean American but she is omnidirectional in her criticism. She sprays to all fields. What she said was from the inside and didn’t pull puches. You may not want to hear it but you need to.
You’ve got parents who expect their children to go to one of the “SKY” universities here or Stanford or Harvard in the States. News flash. They ain’t all gonna make it. The pressures on these kids are higher than for most adults anywhere else in the world. They can’t go to their grandparents for solace. Chances are they are even more disappointed than the parents.
Realizing they aren’t going to live up to their parents dreams do they go to something a notch lower. No, why do that? Their parents are pissed off anyway, why not go way out. Quit studying and quit acting human. How much angrier can their parents get?
Near where I work there are several high schools and middle schools. When I finish work there are about nine little thuglings to one regular human. It ain’t pretty and I don’t feel safe.
I’m 6′3″, 210 lbs. and I work out four times a week.
There have been gang rapes involving kids as young as fourteen. As horrendous as the crime is, what is even more frightening is the seeming lack of remorse by the multiple perpetrators.
You have husbands, fathers, who work all day and either keep working at night or something else. The mother is left to instill a sense of morality in the children. I don’t see it getting done. Maybe they have classes to teach ethics but perhaps they are paying as much attention there as they are in my classes.
I’m just telling you, don’t think this is all my imagination. Keep watching.
Sorry, I didn’t summarize. Standing up or not taking it here is a definite lose\lose. I have no recourse but to take it. That is the absolute truth.
The funniest punchline in the world for Korean children is “Hello”. If you say it back to them there is no end to the hilarity. I guess greeting go right to the funny bone. Unfortunately, many children aren’t satisfied and continue to ply you with more “Hellos”. You must repeat your act down the street continually, sometimes until you skip into a business. I have gotten fed up, wheeled on them and said vociferously, “Doc cha”, which I heard is a very rude “shut up”. I thought that would be it but it only fed them. Now, whenever they see me they run to me like little mogis to a feast. I no longer say hello to anyone.
That worked.
# 56 – Brendon Carr:
Yes, education is still free in most German provinces and at all levels, up to and including Ph.D.-level, both for nationals AND for foreigners.
So there is no need for anyone to hide out to avoid payment, as none is due. Moreover, you can, at most universities, take as long as you want, or as you feel you need in order to finish your course. Not only the Yuhaksaeng, also many Germans take double the scheduled time to get their degrees, if they ever get them at all…
Government-run language classes for foreign students were free until 2005 but there is now a small fee of several hundred Dollars / Euros p.a. for a full-time course. Of course, for this money the language tuition you get does not offer ideal conditions for learning, as there are around 30 students per class. Thus. learning German takes several years, if you start from scratch…
Housing and food are, however, not free, thus most Yuhaksaeng do not live on Campus as they cannot afford it. They usually live in very simple private dormitories, provided to them by the German Gyopo Community or by the churches. In their own dormitories they also are provided with facilities to cook Korean food. But some Yuhaksaeng, for a number of reasons, cannot make it into these dorms and thus get into a very difficult situation.
My wife does not have to pay for her course at medical school, either, which makes me really happy, as I would have to foot the bill in the end if it ever were to come. But it definitely will not. Maybe for later generations…
Maddlew is right about the piling on. It would be foolhardy in Korea to expect a Korean to bear witness against another Korean in an altercation with a non-Korean. And then there’s the police and press if the incident were big.
My one white friend in Korea once got into it in Korea. When they broke it up, he explained (in fluent Korean) his side of the story. And no, nobody piled up on him.
Not saying it doesn’t happen, mind you. Just that when he dealt with it in his fluent Korean, he was able….to DEAL with it.
‘tank incident! tank incident! oh, my gawd, tank incident!’ whined you-know-who
within hours of the tank incident, the us military announced that the case ‘was closed’. still further, the military initially refused requests by korean police to interview the subjects. in other words, the attitude of the us army was one of arrogance and indifference.
that’s why comparing the ‘tank incident’ with the ‘cho affair’ is simply absurd.
‘you’re only concrened because you think about how your people reacted with the tank incident!.’ you-know-who
‘really? i was thinking about the la riots.’ korean
Can we maybe agree on the following evaluation:
Arguing back in (hopefully fluent) Korean can, for a foreigner in a dangerous situation, sometimes turn things for the better – but then it also may make the situation even worse. The outcome depends very much on the nature of the opponents s/he is facing. The adrenalin level of some, certainly not all, Koreans rises upon their hearing a hapless waygook contradicting them, thus making them more aggressive, but then, if the constellation happens to be different, talking softly but firmly may cool things down. How are you supposed to know in advance which is the right course of action in any given situation ?
Once more # 56, Brendon Carr
Brendon:
As I foreigner, although I used to live in anglophone countries for many years, I have never ever heard, nor seen, the word “edumacation”.
Could you maybe enlighten me ?
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72 & 76 Maddlew, JK says you are wrong. You must accept that as the empirical truth from the man without a country. Don’t try and fight it with the facts, resistance is futile. Korea/Koreans are without blame, you and I need to come to terms with it!
“72 & 76 Maddlew, JK says you are wrong.”
Boy, you have a reading comprehension problem. In no way did I say Maddlew was wrong. I just said someone else dealt with a bad situation a little differently.
Plus, I doubt a Korean mother and two small kids would have been much of a threat to someguyinkorea if he had said, “Ahjuma….please watch those kids and see they don’t make statements like that about my son.” If he couldn’t speak Korean (the way many immigrants in the US can’t speak English and thus don’t say anything when they hear something racist aimed at them) then he could have said it in English to the point that his point was understood. I DOUBT there would have been a mob attacking him if he had spoken calmly.
“You must accept that as the empirical truth from the man without a country.”
Let’s see….I am an American living in America and serving the US. And you? Exactly WHO is the man without the country? You sound like one of them white expats I used to encounter who lived permamently in Korea but waved the flag ferociously for fear of losing their national identity. Their behavior used to even embarrass other white Americans I knew who were visiting Korea for a short trip.
“Don’t try and fight it with the facts, resistance is futile. Korea/Koreans are without blame, you and I need to come to terms with it!”
Poor you. You don’t have an argument, and you have to try to be funny. And even that failed.
JK wrote:
JK, I’m sorry for arguing with you in that other thread.
I’d like to be your friend, so you can say you have at least _two_ white friends in Korea.
To Sonagi at #71ish.
It looks to me like most of this stuff is on topic, given the topic of the post.
On a personal note all i’m going to say about the subject at hand is this: Korea(ns) doesn’t need to apologize, but at least it is being consistent by doing so given the big deal would’ve been made over Cho had he won the Nobel Prize. And that you can’t say Korea is silly for apologizing while simultaneously accusing it of hypocrisy for noting he was raised in the US (though of course the fact that with immigrant parents his upbringing was not “typical” or “mainstream” is probably relevant, too), because it’s first reaction was to apologize. I don’t think it needs to but at least it demonstrated some consistency in its approach to overseas Koreans.
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jk,
What you don’t get is that in the US, you are a stranger. Tell someone to fuck off in the US and it ends there (unless you get shot, but that’s another story). And you were insulted by ‘rednecks’. I get insulted by supposedly educated people. Say something about it here, you can count on lies being spread. Face it, everybody knows who I am, or they think they do based on all the gossip they’ve heard. Koreans love to gossip, it’s a fact. Basically, I’m fucked whatever I do.
“My one white friend in Korea once got into it in Korea. When they broke it up, he explained (in fluent Korean) his side of the story. And no, nobody piled up on him.”
My friend was being verbally assaulted by a bunch of drunken Korean businessmen. His Korean friend jumped in to help, but they just turned on to him, beating him up. My friend called the cops. Guess who was arrested?
Someguyinkorea, of course I don’t question your experiences – because you had them and I didn’t. I just presented my views.
I respectfully ask this question: Did your friend explain to the cops in Korean what happened? I knew a u-hak-saeng here in Virginia who RECENTLY had a car accident with a white girl. The Korean girl couldn’t speak much English, but from her account of what happened, she was in the right (and she had no reason to lie to me or my friends). But the cop, when writing the report, blamed her for it. It didn’t help that the white girl’s father was a lawyer with some pull either.
Just saying that MAYBE a language barrier didn’t help matters? Again, not questioning your experiences. Just asking.
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One point, someguyinkorea,
I know you never questioned this, but I feel I should point out…..
1) I got the finger-pointing in my direction and the off-handed remarks when native Koreans heard my Korean (which is accented). 2) Or I had people break in line in front of me at bakeries. 3) Or I had Korean taxicab drivers lecture me on the importance of being a “true” Korean.
And this is how I responded to each of those episodes, respectively, in my accented Korean:
1) “Why are you pointing at me? And why are you talking about me right in front of my face as if I can’t hear you?? Are you that stupid???? Or do you just not have manners??”
2) “Excuse me….we were here first.” Most people from the West blow it off and complain later among themselves.
3) “Hey! Drive the damn car and stop talking to me! No wonder foreigners have such a poor attitude about Korean taxicab drivers! You talk about stupid things like Korean blood! I am an American!” Trust me, they go then and don’t say another word.
And I became known as a complainer (but a fluent-in-Korean complainer) and people learned to keep their mouths shut. Perhaps my rep took a hit….but who cares?
Holy crap! I’m telling you your house is on fire and your questioning whether the drapes are the right color. No, I think they’re just the right shade of blue. Especially this time of year.
I do think the sofa clashes with the flames shooting of it.
“I respectfully ask this question: Did your friend explain to the cops in Korean what happened? ”
He called the cops, so obviously he could speak Korean. Did you miss the part about his friend– the one being beaten up–being Korean? To add insult to injury, the Korean businessmen who assaulted him/them could speak English fluently. Yeah, the xenophobes probably worked in international trade. Ironic, isn’t it?
One more point,
I certainly complain when I’m in another town…but here, it’s a small town and a smaller neighborhood. As I was saying, far too many people seem to know us. The kids, the rude ones I’ve previously mentioned, actually knew my son’s name, by the way. Yup, they live in our block, they see us everyday, and yet they gave us the same treatment that’s often been excused by apologists as being due to a lack of exposure to foreigners.
“But while I find the Korean kids’ and their mother’s behavior deplorable, I must wonder why Western expats like you don’t respond. That has been a key behavior feature I have noticed of many Western expats: Complain up and down on blogs and to other Westerners about Koreans….but don’t say anything to Koreans when faced with what the Westerner may perceive to be bad behavior by Koreans. I mean…you stewed….meanwhile, the mother or her kids won’t change since they didn’t hear from you (in Korean) that you found their behavior toward you and your son deplorable. You blame the gov’t or the Korean school system….well why didn’t you do anything? I mean after all, it’s your son.”
When I’m alone I have no problem responding – in Korean – to rude people. (And, let me stress, most Koreans are fine.) When I’m with my son, especially in the neighborhood, I have to consider whether choosing to make a scene is in his best interest. Sometimes you have to stand up for him, but there are other times you risk making the situation more uncomfortable for him, in the short term or the long term. I suspect that Someguy and others have to weigh these considerations too. Occasionally it is worth making an issue of rudeness, but at other times it isn’t worth lowering oneself to respond to the local version of trailer trash.
How would you know how many friends I have, jk?
I wasn’t going to take the bait, but let me ask you something:
Do you tell all your white friends what you write on your blog? Do you go up to them and brag that you can steal any white man’s Korean girlfriend or wife?
Quit being such a hypocrite.
“And you were insulted by ‘rednecks’. I get insulted by supposedly educated people.”
“My friend was being verbally assaulted by a bunch of drunken Korean businessmen. His Korean friend jumped in to help, but they just turned on to him, beating him up. My friend called the cops. Guess who was arrested?”
Yes, Someguy, I had quite similar experiences, as well. As a dark looking individual (such as myself) it is possible to get into trouble, in let’s say, my home country of Germany. But these people I got in trouble with were the lowest of the low, people who are utterly despised by German society. And some “normal” person invariably came to my rescue.
Whereas in the ROK…
“Say something about it here, you can count on lies being spread. Face it, everybody knows who I am, or they think they do based on all the gossip they’ve heard. Koreans love to gossip, it’s a fact. Basically, I’m fucked whatever I do.”
“I certainly complain when I’m in another town…but here, it’s a small town and a smaller neighborhood. As I was saying, far too many people seem to know us.”
“Yup, they live in our block, they see us everyday, and yet they gave us the same treatment that’s often been excused by apologists as being due to a lack of exposure to foreigners.”
“He called the cops, so obviously he could speak Korean. Did you miss the part about his friend– the one being beaten up–being Korean? To add insult to injury, the Korean businessmen who assaulted him/them could speak English fluently. Yeah, the xenophobes probably worked in international trade. Ironic, isn’t it?”
Someguy:
You hit the nail on the head – these are the real problems foreigners are facing in Korea. All these experiences my wife and I were exposed to in a similar way during our 5-year stay in the ROK, mostly in Chungju…
And occasionally we still run into similar trouble now – in Germany, due its large Yuhaksaeng community, there is a serious risk for an interracial couple (wife Korean, husband German but with a non-German ethnic background) to get harassed by some of the wackier members of this community. My wife and I complained about it to the German police, but they are somewhat at a loss. An “exotic foreigner” (my wife) handing in complaints about members of her own ethnic group seems to be something the German police feel unable to deal with. One officer told me outright: “We cannot intervene in an inner-Korean conflict.” Which is, of course, complete and utter bullshit…
global: “The attention generally seems more positive than negative in its intent, but the parents accompanying their children seldom consider my little guy might not appreciate it.”
That’s where the cultural barrier seems to exist. The Korean parents accompanying their children and the children themselves regard it as the positive reaction which you recognise, but you and your son don’t actually take it positively. Most Koreans wouldn’t understand why positive reaction would be offensive.
Sweet Home Alabama.
http://news.chosun.com/site/da.....00657.html
JK:
You know that I take your arguments and suggestions very seriously and fully acknowledge that much of what you say is quite in point.
Nevertheless, you simply do not understand that you are benefitting from what I call, in my naive way, the “Gyopo Privilege” which means that most Koreans, while they may not fully accept you as one of their number, regard you as a “remote relative”, as someone who is somehow different and sometimes strange but still of their own blood, and thus should be treated with a certain respect.
Due to your “Gyopo Privilege” you will never be faced with comments like the ones my wife was faced with who was once asked (in my presence and in English) by a university graduate(!) why she got married to man with “dirty” skin – referring to my dark-brown looks.
Her answer to the man who asked her this question was something like “fuck yourself” – and he seemed to be genuinely surprised by her reaction…
Yeah, must be the cultural difference…
I’m looking out the window right now. I see two mothers and forty children. The mothers don’t belong to any of the kids. They are merely passing through this particular urban landscape. You seem to think, or some of you do, that there is an imminent adult presence. There isn’t. That’s my point.
I dunno…maybe it’s just me, but I’ve become really curious about this alleged shadowy underground of “German yuhaksaeng”. Their reach seems to be very long…
” When I’m with my son, especially in the neighborhood, I have to consider whether choosing to make a scene is in his best interest. Sometimes you have to stand up for him, but there are other times you risk making the situation more uncomfortable for him, in the short term or the long term. ”
Yes, it would be poor parenting on my part if I had told this woman what I thought of her in front of my kid.
“I dunno…maybe it’s just me, but I’ve become really curious about this alleged shadowy underground of “German yuhaksaeng”. Their reach seems to be very long…”
Dogbertt:
If you have become “really curious” about the “long reach” of the German Yuhaksaeng, feel free to ask me any question you want. Or try getting some information from other sources.
Also please note that my wife, as a Korean student Germany, having arrived in Germany in 2004 (although not really as a Yuhaksaeng but as a landed immigrant, i.e. as a Gyopo who retains her Korean citizenship), is confronted everyday with these people on campus and exposed to their taunts and attacks. She has to work together with them in her classes; she cannot simply pack up and go away…
As to the absence of tuition fees for German university education, there used to be a paragraph in the “Federal University Law” to this effect. This has, however, been overturned in 2005 by the German Constitutional Court, on the basis that this question is within the scope of Provincial, not Federal legislation.
The result was that, immediately after the judgment had been rendered, most provinces enacted statutes to the effect of preventing universities on their territory from levying tuition fees from their students.
A few provinces, however, have granted permission to their universities to levy fees, however on condition that “foreign students from developing countries”, which means for Asia, according to the German definition, all countries except Japan, Hong Kong (although not really a “country”), and Singapore, are exempt from these fees on public policy grounds.
All these rules do not apply for education in ENGLISH, which is also available in Germany. But if that’s what you want, you’ll have to pay through the nose – these courses have to fund themselves entirely from the fees levied, without receiving any government support…
JK,
Have you ever been to Korea?
And, as to the unreasonably long duration of university studies in Germany, this is a problem the German public (and even the political class) are well aware of, but nobody seems to be able to do anything about it.
As of 2007, it is still the sad truth that, from the time enrollment in a university to finishing one’s Master’s (which is the usual entrance ticket for the job market in subjects such as e.g. Electrical Engineering), there is, in practice, if not in theory, even for native German students (unhampered by language problems) a time-span between 7 and 8 years.
In Chemistry, where usually a Master’s Degree + a Ph.D. is necessary for landing a reasonably well-paid job, the usual time-span between first-time enrollment as an undergraduate and having one’s Ph.D. and thus the ability to enter the job market conferred upon oneself, is something like 10-13 years.
Now, for foreigners, add on 4 years of language study, and then add on a couple of semesters due to the linguistic difficulties usually experienced by non-native speakers in spite of having formally passed the “Linguistic Aptitude Test for the German Language” after 4 years or so of study…
Not a good system, as I am full well aware. That’s why I’ve never attended a German university; instead I went to Britain where everything is much, much faster…
Railway,
as far as I recall, JK has written somewhere in the K-blogosphere that he worked as lecturer in Korea for a couple of years, but then had to leave head over heels when he was faced with the unpleasant possibility of being conscripted into the ROK army.
Some of the comments made by JK are in point, while some are not quite so much in point – but that goes, of course, for everybody’s writings, including my own.
What I, however, really do not like are the straightforward personal attacks which I, as well as others, occasionally experienced, and also not the backhanded insinuations that some commenters, coming from all shades of the racial, ethnic, or political spectrum occasionally smuggle into their posts…
I understand that JK is not the most mild-mannered of participants and I disagree with him most of the time, but it is not really fair that he has to bear the brunt of attacks on a personal level by a whole bunch of other commenters. He then hits back with full force and sometimes in an inappropriate manner – and this then leads to the regular flame wars which we really do not need. Let us all be a tad bit less confrontational…
We would all be able benefit from a little bit less confrontational atmosphere on this blog…
Would it matter if the hypothetical foreign shooter hits it with a Korean working girl just before the rampage?
Perhaps she’d be held responsible?
@109
Ouch, Cho was rejected by an escort he paid for. No wonder he was so angry.
railwaycharm wrote:
“JK,
Have you ever been to Korea?”
You must be kidding me.
As Fantasy has already mentioned, yes, I have. And in addition to being a lecturer there briefly, I also worked in the finance industry in Seoul.
And as I have also said in NUMEROUS disclaimers, I don’t deny claims by many of the posters here about their more negative experiences as they relate to many Koreans. But I DO wonder why many of these posters, who tend to be white Western expats, are so quick to talk about the supposedly WORSE racism in Korea yet so easily dismiss an Asian-American’s view of racism in the US. In another thread, after many of the white expats dismissed ALL Asian-American concerns about a possible backlash after the Virginia Tech shooting…..I showed what an Asian-American girl wrote about the racism against Asians that resulted….and not only did you, railwaycharm, find her “suspect” but you joked about her that implied something not very respectful of her….even though that had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. Then you dismiss it all as a “joke.”
Sad.
BTW, in one of his posts above Dogbertt created the term of “the German Yuhaksaeng” – and I carelessly quoted his description in my reply.
Please note that in my other comments I invariably speak of “the Yuhaksaeng in Germany”, while I, in contrast, use the term “the German Gyopos” or “the German Gyopo community”.
And yes, indeed, this a distinction that matters !
I want to make a point of the fact that “our” Gyopos are German and like living in Germany, even if some of them, such as my wife, continue to hold on to their Korean passports, and therefore remain unable to acquire German citizenship (dual nationality not being permitted).
The Yuhaksaeng in Germany, in contrast, would loathe to be described as “German” – instead the see the Germans as their natural ennemies, who are bent on making their life and their studies as unpleasant as anyhow possible.
In the early 1990s the ROK was faced with the necessity of making a decision whether she should model her high-speed KTX train-system on the French TGV, the German ICE, or the Japanese Shinkansen (but the latter option does not seem to have been really open to the decisionmakers). This decision, naturally had quite significant economic implications. Therefore the Yuhaksaeng in Germany sent several petitions to the Korean government, in order to prevent the German option from being chosen. Some of the letters seem to have read as follows “Mr President, we are writing to you from a country where Korean students are treated like vermin…”
On a lighter note:
There was recently a discussion among the Jews in this country about how they should describe themselves. Some of them insisted on calling themselves as “Juden in Deutschland” (Jews in Germany), whereas others preferred the term “Deutsche Juden” (German Jews).
The latter fraction seems to have won out in the end. Which I applaud. I am really pleased that, 62 years after the holocaust, Jews, in their majority, seem to be willing to identify again with this country.
First of all – any discussion about ‘whose racism is worse’ is just pointless. ANY kind of racism is unacceptable, and always painful to the person who receives it. If anything those of us who experience racism in one country should be able to empathize with people who experience it somewhere else. Sometimes I think that the world is divided less by nationality than by awareness level – those who are interested in the rest of the world vs. closed-minded ignorant types. And I think most of us here are in the first group.
Foreigners emphasize racism in Korea because it’s not very well known, and many Koreans continue to deny it, because some of them may not even really understand the concept – having encountered only one race for most of their lives.
In some ways Koreans are a bit like New Yorkers, and it’s necessary to fight back verbally as JK has pointed out – on the other hand it’s pointless, and tiring, to chase down every slight and try to singlehandedly educate the whole country. Korea really needs some multi-cultural or diversity awareness training, starting in the schools.
On a related question, one which Fantasy might be able to enlighten me about – one thing I still don’t understand (lived here on and off since 1992) is the tendency of some Koreans to look down on darker skinned people. Where does that come from? And, I don’t really believe the explanation I sometimes get here that they ‘learned’ it from Americans. Japanese didn’t seem to learn it from Americans. At least I’ve heard stories that Japanese women go for black guys. I tend to think that maybe it’s because this country has a strong tradition of class consciousness going back to the Chosun dynasty, and that the poorest guys were probably darker because they were out working in the fields all day. Hence many older Korean women still use parasols to try to keep their skin looking white. But it seems so strange since Koreans never had much contact with people from S Asia until the last decade or so. Any comments?
“…the tendency of some Koreans to look down on darker skinned people. Where does that come from?”
I was surprised about this, as well. In Singapore I experienced nothing of the sort, although I was, of course, darker than the Chinese majority population…
“I tend to think that maybe it’s because this country has a strong tradition of class consciousness going back to the Chosun dynasty, and that the poorest guys were probably darker because they were out working in the fields all day.”
Yes, I surely think that this explanation partly accounts for the phenomenon…
In the past, Koreans seem to have used the relative lightness of their skin to distinguish themselves from the Japanese and the Chinese who seem (except in the extreme north of China), on average, to be slightly darker than they themselves are. And this desire to ascribe an element of “foreignness” to people with skin that was only slightly darker may well have reinforced the above-mentioned prejudice. According to this logic this would then apply to a much larger extent to people who are really dark-skinned (such as myself).
Some racism experts maintain that the discrimination of those with darker skin is a universal phenomenon. And, indeed, it seems to be possible to did up a such a tendency in a wide variety of cultures.
In Europe, however, the ideal of beauty has fundamentally changed since the 1970s. While people generally would not want to look as dark as I do, being “too light” (some call it derisively “cheese-light”) is definitely not an asset, neither for men, nor for women, as this is regarded as the manifestation of a supposedly unhealthy “nerdish” lifestyle, characterised by long hours spent over books or in front of the computer, with little physical activity and without much of a social life…
And, while being naturally straw blond is still an advantage, even in Europe, for an actor (m/f) aspiring to little more than to play the teenage lover (m/f), in later life this asset turns into a handicap, as it might exclude him/her from being given the chance to excel in genuine “character roles”. Fortunately, the problem can be solved by the use of a little hair dye.
#113 and 114: Skin color is associated with socio-economic level here and in other parts of Asia. Look at the old black and white photos of this place. All the coolies are quite dark skinned while the yangbangers are generally people of pallor. Nowadays, look at the ajummas in the fields trying to cover every square inch of flesh. It has nothing to do with the advent of whitey.
109,110,
It wouldn’t be good for ‘business’ if she admitted doing it with him, don’t you think? Besides, couldn’t she have been arrested for prostitution if she admitted to it?
108.
Fantasy, I respect your view. Standing down.
RE: comment #10
(Yeah, I’m just NOW getting caught up in all the gossip.)
Pawi – You serious? Blame American/Western culture for Crazy Cho’s behaviour?
So, as an EXPAT (and keep in mind I’ve only been here for 4 years) – does that make me MORE KOREAN than American?
Wait a sec – how about the EXPATS who have been in KOREA longer than they lived in the USA? Does this make them ‘culturally Korean’?
*IF* you were being serious – and – *IF* you believe that where you RESIDE determines how you BEHAVE – then, you are retarded. IMHO. If you were being facetious, my apologies (and you wouldn’t be retarded).
I found Choi’s piece rather lacking, and typically myopic, particularly his claim that had Cho had Korean friends, he might have felt better about himself. A more intelligent analysis would have been if he had had ANY friends, things might have turned out differently.
So, as an EXPAT (and keep in mind I’ve only been here for 4 years) – does that make me MORE KOREAN than American?
Wait a sec – how about the EXPATS who have been in KOREA longer than they lived in the USA? Does this make them ‘culturally Korean’?
Do you know any expats who’ve lived and grew up in Korea since the age of 8?
“Do you know any expats who’ve lived and grew up in Korea since the age of 8?”
Are you talking physical or emotional age?
I know PLENTY.
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