I fail to see how public acts of guilt-by-ethnic-association contrition [Seattle Post-Intelligencer, HT to Seoulmilk] help:
State Sen. Paull Shin, D-Edmonds, apologized to fellow lawmakers and legislative staff members, first at a private prayer meeting, then in Senate chambers.
“It hurts me deeply, knowing what happened to Korea and how much the U.S. helped,” said Shin, an orphan who was adopted by an American soldier after the Korean War. “This is not the way to pay back the blessings we received.”
Although legislators told him he had no need to apologize, Shin, fighting his emotions, said he felt compelled to do so because of his acceptance in America and his leadership position in the Korean American community.
I’m sorry, but WTF, Sen. Shin? As if the shooter’s ethnicity weren’t irrelevant enough, now we’re bringing the Korean War and U.S. aid to South Korea into it? And you’re apologizing—I take it on behalf of the Korean community—for a screwed-up kid murdering his schoolmates just because he happened to share the same ethnicity as you? Does this mean I’m going to have to apologize each and every time a German or Irish-American does something terrible?
UPDATE: Sen. Shin, you’ve just been outdone by the Korean Ambassador to Washington Lee Tae-shik, who during a meeting with Korean-American churchgoers in Fairfax, Virginia said that the Korean-American community should use the incident at Virginia Tech to look back at itself, repent and seek to rejoin U.S. mainstream society. And to do this, he proposed that Korean churches conduct a relay fast for 32 days [JoongAng Ilbo, Korean, HT to ziffel]. He even apologized—tears in his eyes and all—on behalf of Korea and Koreans.
253 Comments
Don’t forget the part of the article where the great minds that make up Korean community leaders of Seattle tell their flock to keep a low profile and avoid bringing their children to the mall.
Because we all know there are now roaming gangs of Americans on the lookout for Korean children at malls, just waiting to get payback.
We all know Koreans love victimhood like a fat kid loves cake, but enough already. Quit apologizing, quit being afraid of a non-existent backlash, and go on with your fucking lives.
Does realy most of the Korean American think that American in general will be able to discern just by glance who is a Chinese-,Japanese-,or Korean (or any other asian) american?
During the 80ies, when Japanese and American relationship was pretty bad due to economic relations, I remember that Asian American were complaining that whatever happens between Japan and America, that Asian American in general became the victim of hate crimes.
And I don’t think that any hate crime will happen because of the nationality of the murderer.
Sure, Robert, I certainly agree, there is no need for Koreans or Gyopo to apologise for the vile act of an individual - but to take the crime as an excuse for celebrating (like the Yuhaksaeng in Germany who seem to be fêting the killer as a national hero, as my wife told me on the phone) is a bit odd, as well…
My wife is a Korean medical stuudent at a major German university so she is in the middle of these people and the information she is relaying should be correct…
Fantasy—How many yuhaksaeng? The entire yuhaksaeng community? Just the ones around your wife? Any proof that this is actually happening, or are we supposed to go on third person testimony from an anonymous poster who has now posted this rumor in two separate posts. I actually live in Korea, and I can assure you he’s not being treated as a national hero.
Sorry about the triple post - my first comment contained a spelling mistake, so I tried again, and then…
BTW, my comment was not intended to stir up racial hatred. The Yuhaksaeng in Germany are simply an entirely whacky bunch, certainly not typical of Koreans in general…
Robert,
did not see your comment before posting my last one. I know full well that you have been living in the ROK for years - I was definitely not talking about the situation there…
No, I have not got any documentary proof of this happening - the German media do not care much about foreign students of Korean or any other nationality. But my wife is certainly not someone with a bent towards exaggeration - rather a quite sober person - and a little bit scared herself of a possible backlash.
BTW, Robert did you do anything about H. Kim’s personal attack on me in the other thread, which I complained about (to Oranckay) ? I do not think I have to put up with this…
My parents live in his district. I think they voted for him…
I met him a few times at Shoreline community college as a student. He used to be a professor there.
I’m sorry for the Stuart Restoration, that whole Civil War thing, and Sean Connery’s bad movies.
a joongang ilbo reporter asked me for a quote this afternoon. her question: do you think this incident will harm relations between the south korean and US governments? i just looked at her like she was crazy… gotta have an angle, i guess, and any angle will do.
“anonymous poster”
Robert,
I have posted lots of comments on the Marmot’s Hole in the last year or so…
I agree completely with the thrust of Robert’s argument.
Which is why I find it highly disturbing to read in the 중앙일보 that someone has now suggested that Koreans undertake a 32-day fast to mourn/reflect/atone.
I wouldn’t find it highly disturbing if it was just a well-meaning but wayward netizen, or perhaps a state senator in Washington state.
But this “someone” is none other than the Korean ambassador to the US!
“이태식 대사, 32일간 자성의 금식 제안”
http://news.joins.com/article/.....l?ctg=1301
Apology accepted - move on.
H. Kim’s comment erased.
Now, I ask you to consider this: you’ve just posted—twice, anonymously, without links, photos or anything else resembling evidence—a potentially inflammatory rumor regarding a Korean minority living abroad based on hearsay testimony. Now I ask, why should I be concerned that H. Kim directed dirty words toward you when you, clearly, have not stopped to consider the possible damage making that kind of accusation might have?
And yes, you are anonymous. I assume your name is not Fantasy. If you’d like to put a real name and occupation next to that accusation, or better yet, that of your wife (since she is the one accusing the Korean student population of Germany of celebrating a mass murderer), I might take that accusation a bit more seriously.
Well, I sure am glad that Fantasy’s wife is studying to be a doctor and not a journalist.
Beofre presenting such a random ANECDOTAL account as some kind of gospel, please do consider the incendiary nature of what you’re saying. I am sure that your wife is an honorable person and all, but she probably saw a very misguided Korean student or two acting inappropriately. But the tone of what you’ve been writing in this thread and others suggests that the Korean student community in Germany on the whole is celebrating this tragedy and canonizing the disturbed killer. Please… think before you post. People do read these things.
Robert,
thanks for taking down H. Kim’s comment.
Posters as diverse Matt / Shakuhachi and JK know my real name - and YOU also know my employer, just look at the source code of this comment which contains the its name. Private use of professional equipment is permissible in my profession, as long as it is kept within reasonable bounds. My wife’s profession is, as I’ve said before, “medical student”. Her family name is the same as mine.
But back to the point:
Most things people write in the internet are impossible to prove, unless they made it into the papers - and even this does not really connstitute genuine “proof”…
Now, I understand that you mean I should not have written this remark as you consider it potentially inflammatory. But then, of course, if nothing which might be potentially inflammatory could not be reported any more, this would mean that very little could be reported at all.
I do not feel that anybody needs to apologise for the killings (except for the killer himself, but he’s dead - and possibly the Virginia police who might have blundered, but this latter assertion is merely what I heard in the media).
But, on the other hand, I am quite surprised that I get attacked by you, and even by Matt / Shakuhachi for reporting something which I have every reason to believe it has happened, as it has been relayed to me by the person to whom I am most related.
After 9/11 some people in such diverse parts of the world as Palestine and China seem to have fêted the attackers - would you have suggested a ban on reporting these incidents, as well ?
No ? Double standard…
Bluetranslator:
In the major German universities there are thousands of Yuhaksaengs - and they very frequently hang out together in large groups. This morning they seem to have assembled in order to discuss the events…
What strikes me is that there are even people out there that think they can apologise for another person. If anyone considers themselves my “leader” and decides to apologise on my behalf, then they get the middle finger no matter what their position or who they think they are.
On the other hand, besides the group association sense of guilt/responsibility, I remember someone telling me that Koreans would never allow their image to become as bad as the image of (for example) blacks in America, and that if it did, then they would work hard as a group to improve that image. That person was right, I think.
He’s just covering his Korean.
The Saturday Korean school that my wife teaches at in metro DC has been canceled this upcoming weekend due to a memo from the Korean embassy. I don’t know what the memo said exactly but I do know that we are happy to have the weekend to ourselves.
The Saturday Korean school that my wife teaches at in metro DC has been canceled this upcoming weekend due to a memo from the Korean embassy. I don’t know what the memo said exactly but I do know that we are happy to have the weekend to ourselves.
Fantasy, maybe your wife’s account is entirely correct. I am not in Germany to witness what the Korean students are doing there, so I cannot refute her account.
But I guess I’m just incredulous to hear that the Korean students on the whole would be celebrating. In fact, I don’t know any group who would celebrate something like this, because it wasn’t even a politically motivated incident. Just one deranged individual’s doing. At least, I can undersatnd how some would celebrate the 9-11 attacks–not because I’d celebrate myself, but because they were politically motivated acts and certain groups identify with the politics of the terrorists. Sometimes, people place ideology ahead of human decency.
Read dogbert’s post:
Oh, and thinking about Robert’s note again, I do agree that Cho is not representative of Koreans. But it is a fact that we always hear Koreans credit folks like Michelle Wie or Korean students who get perfect SAT scores as being the result of “Korean values”. Yet, the truth is Michelle Wie is actually also one in a million whose success is due to her own hard work and talent, not “Korean values”.
And read a-letheia’s post:
That is similar to what I said about Hines Ward, but nobody listened. When a Korean does something great lets remember that there are lots and lots of mediocre Korean nobodies in the US who never did anything unusual. After all, most great great NFL players are Black. Hence, “Koreaness” has nothing to do with it.
They’re not the only ones who’ve said this. Read ESL Cafe for example. According to some people, Koreans and gyopos don’t care that Cho was a Korean because he did a bad thing. The lip service is we shouldn’t stereotype an entire group, but you know that that’s impossible not to do. Even Metropolitician who has decried in the past, Korean stereotypes of foreigners fell into it by bringing in jealous Korean ajoshi who hates foreigners theme into this.
Credit goes to Robert. He has stuck with his own principles.
How did my flag turn into French?
#7:
Re: Fantasy’s comment #93 in Virginia Tech shooter a Korean student: report thread:
Robert:
I respectfully request that Fantasy’s above-referenced slanderous and racist comment directed at me be deleted as well.
My God!! whatever happened to personal responsibility? This pandemic compulsion to feel guilt for another’s crap is a significant part of why we are so willing to absolve ourselves of guilt when we do something wrong.
When I do something wrong it’s my fault and when you do something wrong I’m gonna hammer you for it because I certainly don’t feel any guilt for you and I want to make certain nobody else out there might rationalize a contemplated crime by thinking “society made me do it.”
I have an idea: lets put everybody out there who feels guilt for this crime on trial for the crime and then if convicted lock em up for life in prison. Big prison, eh? Might teach idiots to stop feeling guilty for others.
Btw, Fanta, telling someone to “get lost” and “shut up” in German is NOT a personal attack.
Telling someone that they’ve incited racial strife, however, as you did, is libelous slander.
libelous slander? I see… u mean written-slander slander? perhaps you meant libel…
#28:
MrChips: Care to copy edit this entire thread while you’re at it? You know very well what I’m saying, so indulge me if you will, and ignore the redundant expressions.
“But I guess I’m just incredulous to hear that the Korean students on the whole would be celebrating. In fact, I don’t know any group who would celebrate something like this, because it wasn’t even a politically motivated incident. Just one deranged individual’s doing. At least, I can undersatnd how some would celebrate the 9-11 attacks–not because I’d celebrate myself, but because they were politically motivated acts and certain groups identify with the politics of the terrorists. Sometimes, people place ideology ahead of human decency.”
Bluetranslator:
I sure see your point. I’ve said already that the Yuhaksaeng in Germany are an extraordinarily whacky bunch, not comparable to other Koreans.
They feel mistreated by the German universities who fail vast the majority of them. Whether this happens on grounds of their race I am unable to tell - but I may point out that most Gyopo (including my wife, who came to Germany as an adult and is now a landed immigrant, though not a German national) are doing very well. So, I believe the Yuhaksaeng’s failure to be due to insufficient knowledge of the German language…
Anyway, as they are usually not successful (and most of them are living in squalid conditions as they came to Germany, the land of free education, without any funds, at all) they are thoroughly disgruntled and prepared to fête anything and anybody who has, in their view, shown some sign of virility and has empowered himself to become the master over life and death of the much envied and much despised Caucasians whom many of them habitually blame for their plight…
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Most Asian-Americans have feared a backlash. This is not just isolated with Koreans or kyopo or Korean Americans. Yesterday when news reported the killer to be a Chinese from Shanghai, Chinese everywhere were expressing the same anxieties and same disappointments - as were kyopo and Korean Americans. Try to bear that in mind.
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Well Damn! If Ambassador Lee feels guilty let’s indulge him and charge him with murder!
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I look into my crystal ball, and I see a whole lot of comments being deleted for off-topic commentary in the near future.
Btw, with all kinds of racist J nationalists and esl teachers on their backs, seeking at every turn to depict something negative about the “Korean”, it’s no wonder Korea is so concerned about its image and apologizing on behalf of its kyopo. It’s kind of like a postcolonial thing. It works for me. I normally wouldn’t care so much about the ethnicity of a killer, but after reading these blogs I can justify why I do. youtube, for example, is quite an interesting a place for some good old racist textual backlash.
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“Does this mean I’m going to have to apologize each and every time a German or Irish-American does something terrible?”
Although I think it’s ridiculous, it’s not unheard of to feel the need to apologize for something that someone of your race did. Just ask US senators that apologize for slavery.
It’s also not unheard of for people to DEMAND apologies from someone for their ancestors’ (recent or otherwise) transgressions. Look to the US blacks demanding apologies (and reparations) from their government, and to the Koreans demanding apologies and reparations from Japan.
It’s madness. A university aged man came up to me on the subway and said sorry to me today just before I got off at Chungmuro. I had no idea what he was apologizing for and asked why he was saying sorry. He said “I am so sorry that one of my people did this to so many of your people”. Rather dumbfounded, I said “I’m Canadian” and he seemed so relieved, and I walked to line 4.
Leave it to guys like chiamatt to take a good-willed gesture to be an example of Korean madness! (See post 40.)
Do I think apologizing is unneccesary? Yes. But I can also understand that Koreans are a close, homogenous group of people who don’t quite have that sense of individuation that Americans (Canadians, included) may have. This is the difference between individual egos of a developed world representing a single cultural unity, the “West”, and those from a small peninsula coming out of a divisive war and colonialization.
The point is that when Koreans immigrate to a foreign place like the USA they are aware of themselves as foreigners. I must say, this sense seems to be lacking among a few of you here: Go to Australia, it’s cool. Go to Canada, the UK, the USA, it’s cool. Get over here and you experience culture shock. How dare Koreans view as you foreigners and breach this sense of universal entitlement you apparently have? There is a difference in mentality that needs to be understood and I think posters here tend to transport certain inapplicable senses where they shouldn’t be applied.
For a Korean to apologise for another Koreans actions is very much part of the Korean culture in my experience. Even when the Korean apologising is at no fault at all.
So for a Westerner to criticise a Korean for apologising is very much a sign that we wish to impose our value system on them.
Are we under some delusion that our values are in some way superior to Korean values?
Even if he was a representative of the Korean government, I see no reason why he should have to apologize. It’s one thing to express sorrow at the events that occurred, but to feel a responsibility to apologize for your entire nationality/race because one guy from your country/ethnicity committed a horrible crime makes no sense at all.
Necessity hasn’t the faintest to do with the criticism of a racially-based sense of guilt. I know what the sense of homogenuity is here and I don’t care if its cultural; its a cultural liability thats needs to be rectified with a sense of personal responsibility. I’ll say it it plainer words: “The feeling of guilt for another’s crime is wrong; it diminishes the responsibility of the individual.” Period.
Somethings cannot be compromised under the cover of culture.
And I hardly think the misperception being noted is of how westerners’ think Koreans would view this but rather that Koreans are kowtowing as if they assume Americans have the same sense social guilt as them.
“The feeling of guilt for another’s crime is wrong; it diminishes the responsibility of the individual.”
That’s awfully facile. I hope you’re not expecting anyone to lap that up? I disagree with it. The feeling of guilt for another’s crime is not wrong. There’s nothing “wrong” about it. It expresses the knowledge of one’s relation to another, relations that may be causally salient for any reason. It does not diminish the responsiblity of the individual; it broadens it.
In this case, this sense isn’t wrong, but I would agree with the arguments for its being unneccesary or misplaced. The rest of what you have to write is your personal slant only.
Damian,
First, you need to differentiate between an apology or expression of condolences (probably many nations will express such), and Shin’s statement tying this incident to how Korea should appreciate all the U.S. has done for Korea.
Then look at Amb. Lee’s moronic, “repent and seek to rejoin U.S. mainstream society” comment to Korean-Americans.
Calling idiots what they are is not imposing a value system. You’ve got to be reaching to see something like that.
^ The problem is that you take such as gestures in a vat. They’re in response to real, ongoing concerns. Consider the danger of Americans thinking the opposite of what such an apology intends: that Korea and Korean-Americans are rejoicing and hate America. If this kind of dialogue (which takes communities of people rather than individuals as its quanta) is going on, wouldn’t it be relevant to show that so and such is not the case?
If by “universal entitlement you apparently have,” you mean “entitled not to express feelings of responsibility and remorse because someone who happened to share the same ethnicity as I did something bad,” I guess you’re right. And I’ll tell you this, a lot of the readers of the Hankyoreh agree. Even when you have guys who are actively calling for candlight vigils of repentence—in this case, ironically enough, at OhMyNews (the usual pro-American conservative groups, meanwhile, are already holding candlelight vigils)—the reasoning is more complex than “Koreans are a close, homogenous group of people who don’t quite have that sense of individuation that Americans (Canadians, included) may have.” Western expats need to understand Korea better? Fine. They shouldn’t apply Western cultural standards? Fine. But let’s not apply generalizations (i.e., Koreans feel this/that way) to an entire society, either. Even with the ambassador’s apology, it should be noted that in two statements on the incident, the Foreign Ministry headquarters in Seoul did NOT apologize. Express condolances? Yes. Apologize? No. And in fact, I’m inclined to wonder whether Ambassador Lee even got permission to make such an apology, or whether he’s conducting his own little personal diplomacy.
I would never say the feeling of remorse, or sorrow, or sympathy for victims because of another’s crime is wrong. But this isn’t abou that. The word here is “guilt.” Guilt implies having something to do with the crime. Feeling guilt for that is wrong. Wrong to the point where I would say it is a primary element of a universal desire to place blame elsewhere when it really is our fault. After all if society shares guilt than maybe what an individual does wrong is “somewhat undestandeable.” That is intrinsically imbedded in sharing the guilt of someone else.
The only possible exceptions I could see here that can be justified in society are the responsibility of a parent for a child (child, not-young adult) or a caretaker for a mentally handicapped person. Anything beyond that reduces the individual to nothing more than child or moron.
“For a Korean to apologise for another Koreans actions is very much part of the Korean culture in my experience. Even when the Korean apologising is at no fault at all.”
In my experience being Korean can not be defined by what a person does, it’s just a matter of being born in Korea from Korean parents.
“Consider the danger of Americans thinking the opposite of what such an apology intends: that Korea and Korean-Americans are rejoicing and hate America.”
I think very few Americans know enough about Korea or Koreans to know that there is any anti-American sentiment in South Korea, and those who do would realize that this guy’s crime has nothing to do with those issues. At least in the case of 9/11 and Arabs, the media and movies had been letting them know for years that there were Arab terrorists out there who wanted to destroy them. I can’t really see American people turning against Koreans and Korean-Americans because of this one isolated incident, no matter how much the press uses the word “Korean” in articles about the shooter.
Regarding the use of the world facile, I would also add that this is not a view that I have spontaneously come to with this latest incident. In fact my concern over this issue stems primarily from the trend in America to find another explanation for criminal activity of its own growing convict population, other than the individual’s own actions. Cultural sharing of guilt is just another manifestation of that. I hope no one takes my rantings here as an indictment solely of Korean culture. In fact, let me go out of my way to say that America is leading the way in stripping personal responsibility of all of its meaning. Hypocrisy to the nth degree. We cannot separate civil rights from civil responsibility yet, selfish people that we are, we Americans devoid ourselves of responsibility at every turn while clammering for attention to our civil rights. Ridilin (sp?) is now the wonder drug for hyperacitivty and “attention deficit syndrome.” Crap!! Get the goddamn twinkie out the kid’s mouth so he can settle down for half a second and pay attention.
In fact, forget the fuckin guns and just prohibit sugar!!
Marmot,
I noted elements of the Korean psyche that may need to be considered in the context of these subjects. They are sometimes very relevant, in fact. And sometimes they’re not. For me, I know many Koreans who instantly felt sad- and politically responsible- about everything, the tragic loss of life, the suffering of friends and family. Their reaction includes the fact the killer is Korean. I myself felt devastated in many ways, and truth is Cho is a profound shame to Koreans. And yet this is a shame that not only bunches up the Koreans together and places them in a negative light or gives material for people willing to do so, but other Asian Americans, justifiably, are concerned about the ramifications of this situation as well; in general Koreans and other miniority groups in America can feel this way when such a horrible event goes on, and for many, sometimes diverse reasons. I’ll relate again, when Chinese folk were dealing with news about the killer being a Shanghai student, their reactions were no different from the response Koreans are giving. But not all Chinese expressed the same level of “responsiblity” and those that did may have had different reasons for it. I think any such response is natural and reasonable, especially when one lives in a country where you a part of minority that makes up 5% of a large population that, for the most part, can’t recognize your individuality beyond decades old stereotypes and the like.
I mentioned “pscyhe” above, but actually my focus takes a rather externalist approach. I generalize not about people themselves but something about their situations and the justificatoins that these situations can afford them. It’s reasonable to expect a frequency of behaviors to manifest a preference from that situation and such behaviors can have real justificatoins for them.
MrChips,
I don’t think it’s about “guilt” and you keep on postulating that an individual would be neccesarily reduced in some way. That’s not the case. It’s about responsibility and addressing what needs to be when the social discourse makes that relevant. Consider, I wouldn’t apologize for what even a cousin does to someone else. But when issues among families, for example, are at play, then I certainly will. Everything that is goind most certainly requires a comprehension of the cultural differences and situations at play, and there’s something key about it that I believe you’re missing.
“In my experience being Korean can not be defined by what a person does, it’s just a matter of being born in Korea from Korean parents.”
Newton,
this statement is, from a legal point of view, of course entirely correct.
Nevertheless, there are certain kinds of behaviour which are definitely more prevalent among those being of Korean origin AND having been brought up in Korea than among those brought up in other countries. These collective traits are what we commonly refer to as “Culture”.
Now, this does, of course, not mean that this particular culture is shared by each and every national of that country. My wife e.g., born and bred in rural Chungcheonbuk-Do, is the most individualistic person anybody could ever imagine. But she is really an exception in the ROK. In spite of being stunningly beautiful she was an outsider there, to the extent of being a misfit. She was profoundly unhappy in Korea and wanted to get out - and this fact may well have contributed to her acceptance of my proposal of marriage. She really is the most Un-Korean Korean you possibly could imagine…
Gyopo (people of Korean descent brought up outside of the two Koreas and the adjacent areas of China and Russia) may share some traits typical of Korean culture, but then they may not. The extent to which they do depends on a large number of factors…
So, please no generalisations about what Koreans are supposed to be like, but on the other hand please also no denials that “group thinking” is, for good AND for evil, an intrinsic feature of Korean culture, and that it is even actively promoted in Korea, North AND South…
That was, of course, also so in Germany at some point of time but luckily is no longer so…
It’s one thing to understand and accept a cultural difference but I think it is entirely another thing to accept that particular difference as acceptable. Shame and guilt by assocation come dangerously close to an us-versus-them mindset where we take pride or feel shame based on some, ultimately fictional, group identity. Drawing boundaries at which we feel more, or less, guilt is tantamount to saying that I care more about eh actions of one stranger than another sipmly becuse of his race. I am belaboring this point because this is not a small issue in my mind. To the contrary, I am persuaded that this is a chief fault of humanity that we are incessant about diffusing guilt onto those around us. Essentially it is a product of pride and we all know where that leads us.
I will take a sidebar here and recommend a book to anyone willing to invest a smidgen of time in it. Frankly, I disagree with alot of what he writes but Anthony Appiah in his book “The Ethics of Identity” provides some valuable insight to the ramifications of responsibility by assocation /identity at the cost of personal freedom, and hence, responsiblity. Again I think this notion of diffusing responsibility to society, or more so to an ethnic stock, is a dangerous and ultimately fatal attempt to lighten our individual sense of culpibility…worldwide, not just Korean, and in my perception led by Americans (just not the ethnic part.^_*)
I will let anyone else have the last word since this is clearly not an argument to be won with words. And, I hope no one feels any ill will by my strong feelings on this.
Mr Chips:
I fully agree with you, collective “shame and guilt by assocation” do, indeed, “come dangerously close to an us-versus-them mindset where we take pride or feel shame based on some, ultimately fictional, group identity.”
Yet I would be surprised if the majority of KOREANS (brought up in Korea by their Korean parents) would presently agree with us. But the ROK is in a process of change. Maybe the old collective Confucianist ideas are slowly going out of fashion. One should never give up hope…
I think there is just a cultural difference when it comes to apologizing. When a tank ran over 2 middle school girls, Bush had to apologize twice and even then it wasn’t considered enough. To this day I still occasionally see a “Bush apologize” sign. I always thought it was a terrible accident but why the need for an apology from the President of the U.S.? But it made sense to Koreans somehow. There were enough people on the street demonstrating and calling for apologies. Not to mention burning Bush effigies and flag burning. Well I still fully expect Roh to make at least 3 apologies even if they are not needed.
I think many Koreans are concerned about their safety because if an American did this in Korea, there really would be a backlash. Look what happened over an accident that killed 2 people. I think a vast majority of Americans can dicern a troubled crazy lunatic from Koreans or other Asians for that matter. Politicians will not try to milk this issue as Korean politicians did in 2002. They will make sure to keep it in check. The American media has its flaws but still won’t try to spead the flames like Korea’s media tends to do.
If the Korean president, the ambassador, and the Korean Americans didn’t apologize, blogs in Korea and Japan will call out the Koreans for being hypocrites for demanding apologies from others, while offering no apologies when one of their own screw up. This would be held up as a fine example of Korean group think. In a way, I for one, am glad the Korean government, and the Koreans in Korea apologized and signed a petition of sympathy. That way I don’t have to read a pile of posts where Koreans and gyopos are rejoicing in Germany and elsewhere because they hate all non Koreans.
“I think many Koreans are concerned about their safety because if an American did this in Korea, there really would be a backlash.”
I keep reading this, but was there really a violent ‘backlash’ as you said, other then few violent incidents? You’re half right and half wrong regarding what kind of ‘backlash’ Asians will face in America because of this. You’re right that there will be no main stream backlash in America. But it’s not an impossibility that hate crimes and racial slurs against Koreans and other Asians will jump. Those are still what we call isolated incidents.
@non korean: the demonstrations over schoolgirls weren’t simply about demanding an apology. The perceived unfairness of SOFA, accumulated anti-American sentiment and other factors played parts too, not that I necessarily sympathized with the demonstrators.
“That way I don’t have to read a pile of posts where Koreans and gyopos are rejoicing in Germany and elsewhere because they hate all non Koreans.”
CM, # 61:
I do not know where you read that “Gyopo are rejoicing in Germany because…”, but it was certainly not in any of MY comments. I have, at all times, made a very clear distinction between, on the one hand, the KOREANS (born and bred in the ROK) who live in Germany, most of whom are Yuhaksaeng and have serious problem adapting to university life in this country for a multitude of reasons, and, on the other hand, the German Gyopo who are the best integrated group of immigrants in Germany of all, with considerable economic and personal success in all areas of German society.
Really bizarre stories about the Korean embassy’s warning, Koreans hunkering down behind locked doors (don’t forget to stock up on ramyun), Korean American students leaving VT campus, etc. Catch the interview by CNN’s Jim Clancy of a KA who’s packing her bags–he’s just dreadful, btw.
Uri world is spiraling out of control. By choice. Those whispers…what was that?! That glance…must be a threat! The sky is falling. The sky is falling. Momma’s coming to hide her babies.
Expressions of consolation are sufficient enough.
All other sideshow theatrics of apologies and besieged KA’s is just ridiculous. Lemme call you a waaambulance. Maybe it’ll get you some more one-on-one time with the cameraman.
“The perceived unfairness of SOFA…”
Yes, I understand that the SOFA is perceived as immensely unfair by many Koreans, but in fact it is tilted very much more in favour of granting the Korean courts jurisdiction than the corresponding agreements concluded by the ROK for own their military abroad are designed to grant jurisdiction over Korean soldiers to the respective host countries…
I’d like to point out that “Irish,” “German,” “Canadian,” and even “Korean” are not “races” — even by some of the worst definitions I have seen. Race is a very slippery construct. (How many are their again?). “Koreans” *might* be “homogeneous” (are we including kyopo here??), certainly a nation, but not a race. (And what exactly was Hinds Ward’s race?).
I don’t see the need for the Korean government, or for that matter, any person (other than the police and the University authorities who should bear some degree of shame for their ineptness) to apologize for this sick person’s actions. Not only has he ruined the lives of the victims of his shootings but also that of his family and friends. His family will never be able to hide from this incident - whether in Korea or the States. From what I read in the papers his father and mother moved to the United States in an effort to improve his life and they are rewarded for their efforts and sacrifices with a horrendous act of selfishness and cruelty.
I am glad that many in Korea’s government and society feel that they need to make some show of remorse and amends…but it is not their responsibility.
As for the Korean newspapers and the agitators who used the event to lash out at America and our society prior to learning the ethnicity of the sick individual - they should be held responsible and should apologize not only to the United States, and the families of the victims, but also to the Korean people for bringing shame upon this country.
Egads, how did that “their” get there?
Uri Onara:
I have been saying this all along - and I object to the very concept of “racial” differences, being of “indeterminable race” myself, however fully acknowledging “cultural” differences. This difference of opinion lies at the very heart of my serious disagreements with H. Kim, which Robert, as I genuinely hope, will not let get out of hand…
My comment # 70 was supposed to refer to Uri Onara’s following statement:
“I’d like to point out that “Irish,” “German,” “Canadian,” and even “Korean” are not “races” — even by some of the worst definitions I have seen. Race is a very slippery construct. (How many are their again?). “Koreans” *might* be “homogeneous” (are we including kyopo here??), certainly a nation, but not a race. (And what exactly was Hinds Ward’s race?).”
The idea of feeling collective identity in good times and bad seems to be a gut reaction among those around me here in Korea.
When Park Tae-Hwan won a medal at the World Swimming Championships, the rest of my household was glued to the TV, even though they have no interest in swimming and have probably have never sat through a televised race in their life (except perhaps in ‘88). They were only moderately interested in the VT shooting until it was revealed that the shooter might have been Korean. That doesn’t mean that my wife are in-laws are callous to the tragedy, it just didn’t have any personal relevance (how many of you know how many Iraqis died during on the same day?).
I can’t say that I’m surprised, either. In China, I noticed this collective identification was much, much stronger than here in Korea. I remember attending a lecture on “Big Self, Little Self,” in which the Chinese lecturer described how whether they agree or disagree with their fellow countryman (or government) there is a sense in the Chinese psyche of a personal sharing in their glory or shame. I remember seeing an acquaintance of mine reduced to tears after seeing a light-hearted two-line parody of Mao by a friend in a talent show. She later explained that, although she would be hard pressed to say anything positive about Mao herself, seeing a foreigner ridicule one of her countrymen struck her emotionally as a deep betrayal, as if those dark parts of her country’s history were a dark part of her own soul.
I don’t see the average Korean as being so extreme, but that sense is there.
Whether an apology is right or wrong in the American political scene is one thing, but I can certainly understand why in a time of tragedy, some Koreans will feel the need to express their sense of collective shame in some way.
To many of us westerners, this sort of thing is not helpful at all. Having grown up close to the aboriginal community in Canada(in fact, over a third of my extended family is at least half aboriginal) I feel a great deal of sympathy for the wrongs done to their peoples in history, yes, even in very recent history. However, I find it very difficult to have a sense of personal responsibility for their history, and I must admit that when I hear someone say that I must reconcile the sins of my people, it drives a wedge between me and them. I suppose there are times, though, where a simple apology would go a long way to resolving relationships between races and cultures.
I don’t think it’s necessary to judge people for reacting to a tragedy in a way that expresses and resolves their true feelings, wherever they may be rooted. Perhaps it is better to try to understand those feelings, accept an apology (for their sakes), and go on.
Great post, Skindleshanks !
rob- you often have great insight as an expat living in korea. your objective commentary on korean culture and politics is often very refreshing. however, i think you’re being a little too objective on this one. yes i agree with you that the fact that this terrible tragedy was done by a person of korean descent is completely irrelevant to the suffering of the students in va or to the killer’s individual culpability. the fact that the killer was korean is not “completely irrelevant” though. It is very relevant to koreans. like many other commenters have pointed out, koreans are a homogeonous people. our successes and failures rise and fall together. for koreans this tragedy represents their failure (rightly or wrongly) as a society to raise this killer into a mentally sound person and upright citizen. being 2nd gen korean having only been to korea twice in my life, ive never really understood this mentality until yesterday. logically i cant explain the shame i felt. maybe its in our dna. all i know is that i felt a connection to this tragedy as a korean and my remorse was also tied to being korean.
that being said- i feel no need to apologize for being korean nor do i feel there is a need to apologize on behalf of the korean community-
i do however pray for these students and families affected by this tragedy- i think they will be in my thoughts and prayers for a long time to come.
Rorobot:
My (Korean) wife seems to have felt a little bit the way you describe it - that is why she was so shocked by the sight of a considerable number of Yuhaksaeng misbehaving…
“For a Korean to apologise for another Koreans actions is very much part of the Korean culture in my experience. Even when the Korean apologising is at no fault at all.
So for a Westerner to criticise a Korean for apologising is very much a sign that we wish to impose our value system on them.
Are we under some delusion that our values are in some way superior to Korean values?”
One thing you need to realize is that the Korean government knew that an apology is not needed in the eyes of most Americans, and in fact, an expression of empathy, of their condolences would have far more appropriate. This apology, my friend, was made for the benefit of the Korean public.
tomojiro:
Does realy most of the Korean American think that American in general will be able to discern just by glance who is a Chinese-,Japanese-,or Korean (or any other asian) american?
Unless the American is a close acquaintance or friend, the answer is generally no.
Perhaps you are aware of a case which happened in Louisiana, US in 1992. A Japanese international exchange student, Yoshihiro Hattori, was shot to death by American. Hattori was on his way to a Halloween party with some friends, got lost, and ended up at the American’s house by mistake. The American later claimed that he was genuinely frightened for his life by the sight of this Japanese kid, in a Halloween costume, on Halloween, asking about directions to a party.
The Korean community and Asian communities to an extent fear backlash and profiling by White Americans. This is why they make such apologies to preemptively reduce any chance for reprisals…
Sen. Shin’s reaction parallels the Korean American and Korean Virginia Tech students who have decided to flee the campus and not attend any of the mourning ceremonies, as if they are or should be ashamed.
There is no shame in having the same ethnic background as the shooter — it is, and should be discussed by the media AND BY KOREAN AMERICANS as being, incidental to Cho’s identity. He was a Korean-born American kid (since he grew up in the U.S. since 3) with *serious emotional disturbances.* Mental illness is clearly more of an issue here than race or ethnicity.
Let’s not add racial hatred to this already tragic event.
When I heard that the killer was Asian, I had this sinking feeling that he was Korean. I was greatly disturbed by the event beforehand. When this intuition came, I became terribly sad. Shame is not the right word. I am embarrassed that the killer was Korean American. I objectively know that the killer’s ethnicity was peripheral to his actions. Nonetheless, I have to fight the urge to pick apart Korean culture and find a cause there. Koreans owe no one an apology for what this mentally ill young man did. However, it is hard not to apologize. It is just very hard to keep condolences and compassion from transforming into guilt and apologies.
I, personally, don’t fear any kind of backlash. Perhaps those living in rougher areas should. Then again, if you live in an area where this fear is even close to rational, you should already have things in place to defend yourself.
The most appropriate words the Ambassador could have offered beyond the polite condolences one would expect from a diplomat is “Don’t repeat what happened with the media and public in my country in 2002 (twice) or 1995!”
What’s that…over 400 comments and counting now, across 3 threads? I have no desire to get into a discussion or debate over any aspect of this horrible tragedy—short of what little I’ve already written—and I’ve already expressed my sentiments on another thread. I’m just staring in gaping awe at the trainwreck that this blog has become overnight. For those who are mathematically inclined and also queasy about this whole discussion, a distraction:
Let u = number of useful, insightful, non-inflammatory comments that actually are actually conducive to a constructive dialogue.
Let t = total number of comments on this incident across all posts.
Let s = number of grains of sand on all the beaches in the world.
It can be shown that
t/u = 1/s
or
u = t/s
(This is not a slag only at the Marmot’s Hole…half the blogosphere seems to have lit up over this tragedy over the last couple of days.)
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
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(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
D’oh!
u = ts ==> u/t = 1/s
Oh, forget it. My brain is faster than my fingers. You get the idea.
Quit apologizing, quit being afraid of a non-existent backlash, and go on with your fucking lives.
Does this also mean I don’t have to apologize if Hines Ward fumbles the ball in a critical play or if Michelle Wie fails to make the cut (again)?
A very interesting discussion here.