I fail to see how public acts of guilt-by-ethnic-association contrition [Seattle Post-Intelligencer, HT to Seoulmilk] help:
State Sen. Paull Shin, D-Edmonds, apologized to fellow lawmakers and legislative staff members, first at a private prayer meeting, then in Senate chambers.
“It hurts me deeply, knowing what happened to Korea and how much the U.S. helped,” said Shin, an orphan who was adopted by an American soldier after the Korean War. “This is not the way to pay back the blessings we received.”
Although legislators told him he had no need to apologize, Shin, fighting his emotions, said he felt compelled to do so because of his acceptance in America and his leadership position in the Korean American community.
I’m sorry, but WTF, Sen. Shin? As if the shooter’s ethnicity weren’t irrelevant enough, now we’re bringing the Korean War and U.S. aid to South Korea into it? And you’re apologizing—I take it on behalf of the Korean community—for a screwed-up kid murdering his schoolmates just because he happened to share the same ethnicity as you? Does this mean I’m going to have to apologize each and every time a German or Irish-American does something terrible?
UPDATE: Sen. Shin, you’ve just been outdone by the Korean Ambassador to Washington Lee Tae-shik, who during a meeting with Korean-American churchgoers in Fairfax, Virginia said that the Korean-American community should use the incident at Virginia Tech to look back at itself, repent and seek to rejoin U.S. mainstream society. And to do this, he proposed that Korean churches conduct a relay fast for 32 days [JoongAng Ilbo, Korean, HT to ziffel]. He even apologized—tears in his eyes and all—on behalf of Korea and Koreans.
{ 6 trackbacks }
{ 253 comments… read them below or add one }
Don’t forget the part of the article where the great minds that make up Korean community leaders of Seattle tell their flock to keep a low profile and avoid bringing their children to the mall.
Because we all know there are now roaming gangs of Americans on the lookout for Korean children at malls, just waiting to get payback.
We all know Koreans love victimhood like a fat kid loves cake, but enough already. Quit apologizing, quit being afraid of a non-existent backlash, and go on with your fucking lives.
Does realy most of the Korean American think that American in general will be able to discern just by glance who is a Chinese-,Japanese-,or Korean (or any other asian) american?
During the 80ies, when Japanese and American relationship was pretty bad due to economic relations, I remember that Asian American were complaining that whatever happens between Japan and America, that Asian American in general became the victim of hate crimes.
And I don’t think that any hate crime will happen because of the nationality of the murderer.
Sure, Robert, I certainly agree, there is no need for Koreans or Gyopo to apologise for the vile act of an individual – but to take the crime as an excuse for celebrating (like the Yuhaksaeng in Germany who seem to be fêting the killer as a national hero, as my wife told me on the phone) is a bit odd, as well…
My wife is a Korean medical stuudent at a major German university so she is in the middle of these people and the information she is relaying should be correct…
Fantasy—How many yuhaksaeng? The entire yuhaksaeng community? Just the ones around your wife? Any proof that this is actually happening, or are we supposed to go on third person testimony from an anonymous poster who has now posted this rumor in two separate posts. I actually live in Korea, and I can assure you he’s not being treated as a national hero.
Sorry about the triple post – my first comment contained a spelling mistake, so I tried again, and then…
BTW, my comment was not intended to stir up racial hatred. The Yuhaksaeng in Germany are simply an entirely whacky bunch, certainly not typical of Koreans in general…
Robert,
did not see your comment before posting my last one. I know full well that you have been living in the ROK for years – I was definitely not talking about the situation there…
No, I have not got any documentary proof of this happening – the German media do not care much about foreign students of Korean or any other nationality. But my wife is certainly not someone with a bent towards exaggeration – rather a quite sober person – and a little bit scared herself of a possible backlash.
BTW, Robert did you do anything about H. Kim’s personal attack on me in the other thread, which I complained about (to Oranckay) ? I do not think I have to put up with this…
My parents live in his district. I think they voted for him…
I met him a few times at Shoreline community college as a student. He used to be a professor there.
I’m sorry for the Stuart Restoration, that whole Civil War thing, and Sean Connery’s bad movies.
a joongang ilbo reporter asked me for a quote this afternoon. her question: do you think this incident will harm relations between the south korean and US governments? i just looked at her like she was crazy… gotta have an angle, i guess, and any angle will do.
“anonymous poster”
Robert,
I have posted lots of comments on the Marmot’s Hole in the last year or so…
I agree completely with the thrust of Robert’s argument.
Which is why I find it highly disturbing to read in the 중앙일보 that someone has now suggested that Koreans undertake a 32-day fast to mourn/reflect/atone.
I wouldn’t find it highly disturbing if it was just a well-meaning but wayward netizen, or perhaps a state senator in Washington state.
But this “someone” is none other than the Korean ambassador to the US!
“이태식 대사, 32일간 자성의 금식 제안”
http://news.joins.com/article/.....l?ctg=1301
Apology accepted – move on.
H. Kim’s comment erased.
Now, I ask you to consider this: you’ve just posted—twice, anonymously, without links, photos or anything else resembling evidence—a potentially inflammatory rumor regarding a Korean minority living abroad based on hearsay testimony. Now I ask, why should I be concerned that H. Kim directed dirty words toward you when you, clearly, have not stopped to consider the possible damage making that kind of accusation might have?
And yes, you are anonymous. I assume your name is not Fantasy. If you’d like to put a real name and occupation next to that accusation, or better yet, that of your wife (since she is the one accusing the Korean student population of Germany of celebrating a mass murderer), I might take that accusation a bit more seriously.
Well, I sure am glad that Fantasy’s wife is studying to be a doctor and not a journalist.
Beofre presenting such a random ANECDOTAL account as some kind of gospel, please do consider the incendiary nature of what you’re saying. I am sure that your wife is an honorable person and all, but she probably saw a very misguided Korean student or two acting inappropriately. But the tone of what you’ve been writing in this thread and others suggests that the Korean student community in Germany on the whole is celebrating this tragedy and canonizing the disturbed killer. Please… think before you post. People do read these things.
Robert,
thanks for taking down H. Kim’s comment.
Posters as diverse Matt / Shakuhachi and JK know my real name – and YOU also know my employer, just look at the source code of this comment which contains the its name. Private use of professional equipment is permissible in my profession, as long as it is kept within reasonable bounds. My wife’s profession is, as I’ve said before, “medical student”. Her family name is the same as mine.
But back to the point:
Most things people write in the internet are impossible to prove, unless they made it into the papers – and even this does not really connstitute genuine “proof”…
Now, I understand that you mean I should not have written this remark as you consider it potentially inflammatory. But then, of course, if nothing which might be potentially inflammatory could not be reported any more, this would mean that very little could be reported at all.
I do not feel that anybody needs to apologise for the killings (except for the killer himself, but he’s dead – and possibly the Virginia police who might have blundered, but this latter assertion is merely what I heard in the media).
But, on the other hand, I am quite surprised that I get attacked by you, and even by Matt / Shakuhachi for reporting something which I have every reason to believe it has happened, as it has been relayed to me by the person to whom I am most related.
After 9/11 some people in such diverse parts of the world as Palestine and China seem to have fêted the attackers – would you have suggested a ban on reporting these incidents, as well ?
No ? Double standard…
Bluetranslator:
In the major German universities there are thousands of Yuhaksaengs – and they very frequently hang out together in large groups. This morning they seem to have assembled in order to discuss the events…
What strikes me is that there are even people out there that think they can apologise for another person. If anyone considers themselves my “leader” and decides to apologise on my behalf, then they get the middle finger no matter what their position or who they think they are.
On the other hand, besides the group association sense of guilt/responsibility, I remember someone telling me that Koreans would never allow their image to become as bad as the image of (for example) blacks in America, and that if it did, then they would work hard as a group to improve that image. That person was right, I think.
He’s just covering his Korean.
The Saturday Korean school that my wife teaches at in metro DC has been canceled this upcoming weekend due to a memo from the Korean embassy. I don’t know what the memo said exactly but I do know that we are happy to have the weekend to ourselves.
The Saturday Korean school that my wife teaches at in metro DC has been canceled this upcoming weekend due to a memo from the Korean embassy. I don’t know what the memo said exactly but I do know that we are happy to have the weekend to ourselves.
Fantasy, maybe your wife’s account is entirely correct. I am not in Germany to witness what the Korean students are doing there, so I cannot refute her account.
But I guess I’m just incredulous to hear that the Korean students on the whole would be celebrating. In fact, I don’t know any group who would celebrate something like this, because it wasn’t even a politically motivated incident. Just one deranged individual’s doing. At least, I can undersatnd how some would celebrate the 9-11 attacks–not because I’d celebrate myself, but because they were politically motivated acts and certain groups identify with the politics of the terrorists. Sometimes, people place ideology ahead of human decency.
Read dogbert’s post:
Oh, and thinking about Robert’s note again, I do agree that Cho is not representative of Koreans. But it is a fact that we always hear Koreans credit folks like Michelle Wie or Korean students who get perfect SAT scores as being the result of “Korean values”. Yet, the truth is Michelle Wie is actually also one in a million whose success is due to her own hard work and talent, not “Korean values”.
And read a-letheia’s post:
That is similar to what I said about Hines Ward, but nobody listened. When a Korean does something great lets remember that there are lots and lots of mediocre Korean nobodies in the US who never did anything unusual. After all, most great great NFL players are Black. Hence, “Koreaness” has nothing to do with it.
They’re not the only ones who’ve said this. Read ESL Cafe for example. According to some people, Koreans and gyopos don’t care that Cho was a Korean because he did a bad thing. The lip service is we shouldn’t stereotype an entire group, but you know that that’s impossible not to do. Even Metropolitician who has decried in the past, Korean stereotypes of foreigners fell into it by bringing in jealous Korean ajoshi who hates foreigners theme into this.
Credit goes to Robert. He has stuck with his own principles.
How did my flag turn into French?
#7:
Re: Fantasy’s comment #93 in Virginia Tech shooter a Korean student: report thread:
Robert:
I respectfully request that Fantasy’s above-referenced slanderous and racist comment directed at me be deleted as well.
My God!! whatever happened to personal responsibility? This pandemic compulsion to feel guilt for another’s crap is a significant part of why we are so willing to absolve ourselves of guilt when we do something wrong.
When I do something wrong it’s my fault and when you do something wrong I’m gonna hammer you for it because I certainly don’t feel any guilt for you and I want to make certain nobody else out there might rationalize a contemplated crime by thinking “society made me do it.”
I have an idea: lets put everybody out there who feels guilt for this crime on trial for the crime and then if convicted lock em up for life in prison. Big prison, eh? Might teach idiots to stop feeling guilty for others.
Btw, Fanta, telling someone to “get lost” and “shut up” in German is NOT a personal attack.
Telling someone that they’ve incited racial strife, however, as you did, is libelous slander.
libelous slander? I see… u mean written-slander slander? perhaps you meant libel…
#28:
MrChips: Care to copy edit this entire thread while you’re at it? You know very well what I’m saying, so indulge me if you will, and ignore the redundant expressions.
“But I guess I’m just incredulous to hear that the Korean students on the whole would be celebrating. In fact, I don’t know any group who would celebrate something like this, because it wasn’t even a politically motivated incident. Just one deranged individual’s doing. At least, I can undersatnd how some would celebrate the 9-11 attacks–not because I’d celebrate myself, but because they were politically motivated acts and certain groups identify with the politics of the terrorists. Sometimes, people place ideology ahead of human decency.”
Bluetranslator:
I sure see your point. I’ve said already that the Yuhaksaeng in Germany are an extraordinarily whacky bunch, not comparable to other Koreans.
They feel mistreated by the German universities who fail vast the majority of them. Whether this happens on grounds of their race I am unable to tell – but I may point out that most Gyopo (including my wife, who came to Germany as an adult and is now a landed immigrant, though not a German national) are doing very well. So, I believe the Yuhaksaeng’s failure to be due to insufficient knowledge of the German language…
Anyway, as they are usually not successful (and most of them are living in squalid conditions as they came to Germany, the land of free education, without any funds, at all) they are thoroughly disgruntled and prepared to fête anything and anybody who has, in their view, shown some sign of virility and has empowered himself to become the master over life and death of the much envied and much despised Caucasians whom many of them habitually blame for their plight…
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
Most Asian-Americans have feared a backlash. This is not just isolated with Koreans or kyopo or Korean Americans. Yesterday when news reported the killer to be a Chinese from Shanghai, Chinese everywhere were expressing the same anxieties and same disappointments – as were kyopo and Korean Americans. Try to bear that in mind.
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
Well Damn! If Ambassador Lee feels guilty let’s indulge him and charge him with murder!
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
I look into my crystal ball, and I see a whole lot of comments being deleted for off-topic commentary in the near future.
Btw, with all kinds of racist J nationalists and esl teachers on their backs, seeking at every turn to depict something negative about the “Korean”, it’s no wonder Korea is so concerned about its image and apologizing on behalf of its kyopo. It’s kind of like a postcolonial thing. It works for me. I normally wouldn’t care so much about the ethnicity of a killer, but after reading these blogs I can justify why I do. youtube, for example, is quite an interesting a place for some good old racist textual backlash.
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
“Does this mean I’m going to have to apologize each and every time a German or Irish-American does something terrible?”
Although I think it’s ridiculous, it’s not unheard of to feel the need to apologize for something that someone of your race did. Just ask US senators that apologize for slavery.
It’s also not unheard of for people to DEMAND apologies from someone for their ancestors’ (recent or otherwise) transgressions. Look to the US blacks demanding apologies (and reparations) from their government, and to the Koreans demanding apologies and reparations from Japan.
It’s madness. A university aged man came up to me on the subway and said sorry to me today just before I got off at Chungmuro. I had no idea what he was apologizing for and asked why he was saying sorry. He said “I am so sorry that one of my people did this to so many of your people”. Rather dumbfounded, I said “I’m Canadian” and he seemed so relieved, and I walked to line 4.
Leave it to guys like chiamatt to take a good-willed gesture to be an example of Korean madness! (See post 40.)
Do I think apologizing is unneccesary? Yes. But I can also understand that Koreans are a close, homogenous group of people who don’t quite have that sense of individuation that Americans (Canadians, included) may have. This is the difference between individual egos of a developed world representing a single cultural unity, the “West”, and those from a small peninsula coming out of a divisive war and colonialization.
The point is that when Koreans immigrate to a foreign place like the USA they are aware of themselves as foreigners. I must say, this sense seems to be lacking among a few of you here: Go to Australia, it’s cool. Go to Canada, the UK, the USA, it’s cool. Get over here and you experience culture shock. How dare Koreans view as you foreigners and breach this sense of universal entitlement you apparently have? There is a difference in mentality that needs to be understood and I think posters here tend to transport certain inapplicable senses where they shouldn’t be applied.
For a Korean to apologise for another Koreans actions is very much part of the Korean culture in my experience. Even when the Korean apologising is at no fault at all.
So for a Westerner to criticise a Korean for apologising is very much a sign that we wish to impose our value system on them.
Are we under some delusion that our values are in some way superior to Korean values?
Even if he was a representative of the Korean government, I see no reason why he should have to apologize. It’s one thing to express sorrow at the events that occurred, but to feel a responsibility to apologize for your entire nationality/race because one guy from your country/ethnicity committed a horrible crime makes no sense at all.
Necessity hasn’t the faintest to do with the criticism of a racially-based sense of guilt. I know what the sense of homogenuity is here and I don’t care if its cultural; its a cultural liability thats needs to be rectified with a sense of personal responsibility. I’ll say it it plainer words: “The feeling of guilt for another’s crime is wrong; it diminishes the responsibility of the individual.” Period.
Somethings cannot be compromised under the cover of culture.
And I hardly think the misperception being noted is of how westerners’ think Koreans would view this but rather that Koreans are kowtowing as if they assume Americans have the same sense social guilt as them.
“The feeling of guilt for another’s crime is wrong; it diminishes the responsibility of the individual.”
That’s awfully facile. I hope you’re not expecting anyone to lap that up? I disagree with it. The feeling of guilt for another’s crime is not wrong. There’s nothing “wrong” about it. It expresses the knowledge of one’s relation to another, relations that may be causally salient for any reason. It does not diminish the responsiblity of the individual; it broadens it.
In this case, this sense isn’t wrong, but I would agree with the arguments for its being unneccesary or misplaced. The rest of what you have to write is your personal slant only.
Damian,
First, you need to differentiate between an apology or expression of condolences (probably many nations will express such), and Shin’s statement tying this incident to how Korea should appreciate all the U.S. has done for Korea.
Then look at Amb. Lee’s moronic, “repent and seek to rejoin U.S. mainstream society” comment to Korean-Americans.
Calling idiots what they are is not imposing a value system. You’ve got to be reaching to see something like that.
^ The problem is that you take such as gestures in a vat. They’re in response to real, ongoing concerns. Consider the danger of Americans thinking the opposite of what such an apology intends: that Korea and Korean-Americans are rejoicing and hate America. If this kind of dialogue (which takes communities of people rather than individuals as its quanta) is going on, wouldn’t it be relevant to show that so and such is not the case?
If by “universal entitlement you apparently have,” you mean “entitled not to express feelings of responsibility and remorse because someone who happened to share the same ethnicity as I did something bad,” I guess you’re right. And I’ll tell you this, a lot of the readers of the Hankyoreh agree. Even when you have guys who are actively calling for candlight vigils of repentence—in this case, ironically enough, at OhMyNews (the usual pro-American conservative groups, meanwhile, are already holding candlelight vigils)—the reasoning is more complex than “Koreans are a close, homogenous group of people who don’t quite have that sense of individuation that Americans (Canadians, included) may have.” Western expats need to understand Korea better? Fine. They shouldn’t apply Western cultural standards? Fine. But let’s not apply generalizations (i.e., Koreans feel this/that way) to an entire society, either. Even with the ambassador’s apology, it should be noted that in two statements on the incident, the Foreign Ministry headquarters in Seoul did NOT apologize. Express condolances? Yes. Apologize? No. And in fact, I’m inclined to wonder whether Ambassador Lee even got permission to make such an apology, or whether he’s conducting his own little personal diplomacy.
I would never say the feeling of remorse, or sorrow, or sympathy for victims because of another’s crime is wrong. But this isn’t abou that. The word here is “guilt.” Guilt implies having something to do with the crime. Feeling guilt for that is wrong. Wrong to the point where I would say it is a primary element of a universal desire to place blame elsewhere when it really is our fault. After all if society shares guilt than maybe what an individual does wrong is “somewhat undestandeable.” That is intrinsically imbedded in sharing the guilt of someone else.
The only possible exceptions I could see here that can be justified in society are the responsibility of a parent for a child (child, not-young adult) or a caretaker for a mentally handicapped person. Anything beyond that reduces the individual to nothing more than child or moron.
“For a Korean to apologise for another Koreans actions is very much part of the Korean culture in my experience. Even when the Korean apologising is at no fault at all.”
In my experience being Korean can not be defined by what a person does, it’s just a matter of being born in Korea from Korean parents.
“Consider the danger of Americans thinking the opposite of what such an apology intends: that Korea and Korean-Americans are rejoicing and hate America.”
I think very few Americans know enough about Korea or Koreans to know that there is any anti-American sentiment in South Korea, and those who do would realize that this guy’s crime has nothing to do with those issues. At least in the case of 9/11 and Arabs, the media and movies had been letting them know for years that there were Arab terrorists out there who wanted to destroy them. I can’t really see American people turning against Koreans and Korean-Americans because of this one isolated incident, no matter how much the press uses the word “Korean” in articles about the shooter.
Regarding the use of the world facile, I would also add that this is not a view that I have spontaneously come to with this latest incident. In fact my concern over this issue stems primarily from the trend in America to find another explanation for criminal activity of its own growing convict population, other than the individual’s own actions. Cultural sharing of guilt is just another manifestation of that. I hope no one takes my rantings here as an indictment solely of Korean culture. In fact, let me go out of my way to say that America is leading the way in stripping personal responsibility of all of its meaning. Hypocrisy to the nth degree. We cannot separate civil rights from civil responsibility yet, selfish people that we are, we Americans devoid ourselves of responsibility at every turn while clammering for attention to our civil rights. Ridilin (sp?) is now the wonder drug for hyperacitivty and “attention deficit syndrome.” Crap!! Get the goddamn twinkie out the kid’s mouth so he can settle down for half a second and pay attention.
In fact, forget the fuckin guns and just prohibit sugar!!
Marmot,
I noted elements of the Korean psyche that may need to be considered in the context of these subjects. They are sometimes very relevant, in fact. And sometimes they’re not. For me, I know many Koreans who instantly felt sad- and politically responsible- about everything, the tragic loss of life, the suffering of friends and family. Their reaction includes the fact the killer is Korean. I myself felt devastated in many ways, and truth is Cho is a profound shame to Koreans. And yet this is a shame that not only bunches up the Koreans together and places them in a negative light or gives material for people willing to do so, but other Asian Americans, justifiably, are concerned about the ramifications of this situation as well; in general Koreans and other miniority groups in America can feel this way when such a horrible event goes on, and for many, sometimes diverse reasons. I’ll relate again, when Chinese folk were dealing with news about the killer being a Shanghai student, their reactions were no different from the response Koreans are giving. But not all Chinese expressed the same level of “responsiblity” and those that did may have had different reasons for it. I think any such response is natural and reasonable, especially when one lives in a country where you a part of minority that makes up 5% of a large population that, for the most part, can’t recognize your individuality beyond decades old stereotypes and the like.
I mentioned “pscyhe” above, but actually my focus takes a rather externalist approach. I generalize not about people themselves but something about their situations and the justificatoins that these situations can afford them. It’s reasonable to expect a frequency of behaviors to manifest a preference from that situation and such behaviors can have real justificatoins for them.
MrChips,
I don’t think it’s about “guilt” and you keep on postulating that an individual would be neccesarily reduced in some way. That’s not the case. It’s about responsibility and addressing what needs to be when the social discourse makes that relevant. Consider, I wouldn’t apologize for what even a cousin does to someone else. But when issues among families, for example, are at play, then I certainly will. Everything that is goind most certainly requires a comprehension of the cultural differences and situations at play, and there’s something key about it that I believe you’re missing.
“In my experience being Korean can not be defined by what a person does, it’s just a matter of being born in Korea from Korean parents.”
Newton,
this statement is, from a legal point of view, of course entirely correct.
Nevertheless, there are certain kinds of behaviour which are definitely more prevalent among those being of Korean origin AND having been brought up in Korea than among those brought up in other countries. These collective traits are what we commonly refer to as “Culture”.
Now, this does, of course, not mean that this particular culture is shared by each and every national of that country. My wife e.g., born and bred in rural Chungcheonbuk-Do, is the most individualistic person anybody could ever imagine. But she is really an exception in the ROK. In spite of being stunningly beautiful she was an outsider there, to the extent of being a misfit. She was profoundly unhappy in Korea and wanted to get out – and this fact may well have contributed to her acceptance of my proposal of marriage. She really is the most Un-Korean Korean you possibly could imagine…
Gyopo (people of Korean descent brought up outside of the two Koreas and the adjacent areas of China and Russia) may share some traits typical of Korean culture, but then they may not. The extent to which they do depends on a large number of factors…
So, please no generalisations about what Koreans are supposed to be like, but on the other hand please also no denials that “group thinking” is, for good AND for evil, an intrinsic feature of Korean culture, and that it is even actively promoted in Korea, North AND South…
That was, of course, also so in Germany at some point of time but luckily is no longer so…
It’s one thing to understand and accept a cultural difference but I think it is entirely another thing to accept that particular difference as acceptable. Shame and guilt by assocation come dangerously close to an us-versus-them mindset where we take pride or feel shame based on some, ultimately fictional, group identity. Drawing boundaries at which we feel more, or less, guilt is tantamount to saying that I care more about eh actions of one stranger than another sipmly becuse of his race. I am belaboring this point because this is not a small issue in my mind. To the contrary, I am persuaded that this is a chief fault of humanity that we are incessant about diffusing guilt onto those around us. Essentially it is a product of pride and we all know where that leads us.
I will take a sidebar here and recommend a book to anyone willing to invest a smidgen of time in it. Frankly, I disagree with alot of what he writes but Anthony Appiah in his book “The Ethics of Identity” provides some valuable insight to the ramifications of responsibility by assocation /identity at the cost of personal freedom, and hence, responsiblity. Again I think this notion of diffusing responsibility to society, or more so to an ethnic stock, is a dangerous and ultimately fatal attempt to lighten our individual sense of culpibility…worldwide, not just Korean, and in my perception led by Americans (just not the ethnic part.^_*)
I will let anyone else have the last word since this is clearly not an argument to be won with words. And, I hope no one feels any ill will by my strong feelings on this.
Mr Chips:
I fully agree with you, collective “shame and guilt by assocation” do, indeed, “come dangerously close to an us-versus-them mindset where we take pride or feel shame based on some, ultimately fictional, group identity.”
Yet I would be surprised if the majority of KOREANS (brought up in Korea by their Korean parents) would presently agree with us. But the ROK is in a process of change. Maybe the old collective Confucianist ideas are slowly going out of fashion. One should never give up hope…
I think there is just a cultural difference when it comes to apologizing. When a tank ran over 2 middle school girls, Bush had to apologize twice and even then it wasn’t considered enough. To this day I still occasionally see a “Bush apologize” sign. I always thought it was a terrible accident but why the need for an apology from the President of the U.S.? But it made sense to Koreans somehow. There were enough people on the street demonstrating and calling for apologies. Not to mention burning Bush effigies and flag burning. Well I still fully expect Roh to make at least 3 apologies even if they are not needed.
I think many Koreans are concerned about their safety because if an American did this in Korea, there really would be a backlash. Look what happened over an accident that killed 2 people. I think a vast majority of Americans can dicern a troubled crazy lunatic from Koreans or other Asians for that matter. Politicians will not try to milk this issue as Korean politicians did in 2002. They will make sure to keep it in check. The American media has its flaws but still won’t try to spead the flames like Korea’s media tends to do.
If the Korean president, the ambassador, and the Korean Americans didn’t apologize, blogs in Korea and Japan will call out the Koreans for being hypocrites for demanding apologies from others, while offering no apologies when one of their own screw up. This would be held up as a fine example of Korean group think. In a way, I for one, am glad the Korean government, and the Koreans in Korea apologized and signed a petition of sympathy. That way I don’t have to read a pile of posts where Koreans and gyopos are rejoicing in Germany and elsewhere because they hate all non Koreans.
“I think many Koreans are concerned about their safety because if an American did this in Korea, there really would be a backlash.”
I keep reading this, but was there really a violent ‘backlash’ as you said, other then few violent incidents? You’re half right and half wrong regarding what kind of ‘backlash’ Asians will face in America because of this. You’re right that there will be no main stream backlash in America. But it’s not an impossibility that hate crimes and racial slurs against Koreans and other Asians will jump. Those are still what we call isolated incidents.
@non korean: the demonstrations over schoolgirls weren’t simply about demanding an apology. The perceived unfairness of SOFA, accumulated anti-American sentiment and other factors played parts too, not that I necessarily sympathized with the demonstrators.
“That way I don’t have to read a pile of posts where Koreans and gyopos are rejoicing in Germany and elsewhere because they hate all non Koreans.”
CM, # 61:
I do not know where you read that “Gyopo are rejoicing in Germany because…”, but it was certainly not in any of MY comments. I have, at all times, made a very clear distinction between, on the one hand, the KOREANS (born and bred in the ROK) who live in Germany, most of whom are Yuhaksaeng and have serious problem adapting to university life in this country for a multitude of reasons, and, on the other hand, the German Gyopo who are the best integrated group of immigrants in Germany of all, with considerable economic and personal success in all areas of German society.
Really bizarre stories about the Korean embassy’s warning, Koreans hunkering down behind locked doors (don’t forget to stock up on ramyun), Korean American students leaving VT campus, etc. Catch the interview by CNN’s Jim Clancy of a KA who’s packing her bags–he’s just dreadful, btw.
Uri world is spiraling out of control. By choice. Those whispers…what was that?! That glance…must be a threat! The sky is falling. The sky is falling. Momma’s coming to hide her babies.
Expressions of consolation are sufficient enough.
All other sideshow theatrics of apologies and besieged KA’s is just ridiculous. Lemme call you a waaambulance. Maybe it’ll get you some more one-on-one time with the cameraman.
“The perceived unfairness of SOFA…”
Yes, I understand that the SOFA is perceived as immensely unfair by many Koreans, but in fact it is tilted very much more in favour of granting the Korean courts jurisdiction than the corresponding agreements concluded by the ROK for own their military abroad are designed to grant jurisdiction over Korean soldiers to the respective host countries…
I’d like to point out that “Irish,” “German,” “Canadian,” and even “Korean” are not “races” — even by some of the worst definitions I have seen. Race is a very slippery construct. (How many are their again?). “Koreans” *might* be “homogeneous” (are we including kyopo here??), certainly a nation, but not a race. (And what exactly was Hinds Ward’s race?).
I don’t see the need for the Korean government, or for that matter, any person (other than the police and the University authorities who should bear some degree of shame for their ineptness) to apologize for this sick person’s actions. Not only has he ruined the lives of the victims of his shootings but also that of his family and friends. His family will never be able to hide from this incident – whether in Korea or the States. From what I read in the papers his father and mother moved to the United States in an effort to improve his life and they are rewarded for their efforts and sacrifices with a horrendous act of selfishness and cruelty.
I am glad that many in Korea’s government and society feel that they need to make some show of remorse and amends…but it is not their responsibility.
As for the Korean newspapers and the agitators who used the event to lash out at America and our society prior to learning the ethnicity of the sick individual – they should be held responsible and should apologize not only to the United States, and the families of the victims, but also to the Korean people for bringing shame upon this country.
Egads, how did that “their” get there?
Uri Onara:
I have been saying this all along – and I object to the very concept of “racial” differences, being of “indeterminable race” myself, however fully acknowledging “cultural” differences. This difference of opinion lies at the very heart of my serious disagreements with H. Kim, which Robert, as I genuinely hope, will not let get out of hand…
My comment # 70 was supposed to refer to Uri Onara’s following statement:
“I’d like to point out that “Irish,” “German,” “Canadian,” and even “Korean” are not “races” — even by some of the worst definitions I have seen. Race is a very slippery construct. (How many are their again?). “Koreans” *might* be “homogeneous” (are we including kyopo here??), certainly a nation, but not a race. (And what exactly was Hinds Ward’s race?).”
The idea of feeling collective identity in good times and bad seems to be a gut reaction among those around me here in Korea.
When Park Tae-Hwan won a medal at the World Swimming Championships, the rest of my household was glued to the TV, even though they have no interest in swimming and have probably have never sat through a televised race in their life (except perhaps in ‘88). They were only moderately interested in the VT shooting until it was revealed that the shooter might have been Korean. That doesn’t mean that my wife are in-laws are callous to the tragedy, it just didn’t have any personal relevance (how many of you know how many Iraqis died during on the same day?).
I can’t say that I’m surprised, either. In China, I noticed this collective identification was much, much stronger than here in Korea. I remember attending a lecture on “Big Self, Little Self,” in which the Chinese lecturer described how whether they agree or disagree with their fellow countryman (or government) there is a sense in the Chinese psyche of a personal sharing in their glory or shame. I remember seeing an acquaintance of mine reduced to tears after seeing a light-hearted two-line parody of Mao by a friend in a talent show. She later explained that, although she would be hard pressed to say anything positive about Mao herself, seeing a foreigner ridicule one of her countrymen struck her emotionally as a deep betrayal, as if those dark parts of her country’s history were a dark part of her own soul.
I don’t see the average Korean as being so extreme, but that sense is there.
Whether an apology is right or wrong in the American political scene is one thing, but I can certainly understand why in a time of tragedy, some Koreans will feel the need to express their sense of collective shame in some way.
To many of us westerners, this sort of thing is not helpful at all. Having grown up close to the aboriginal community in Canada(in fact, over a third of my extended family is at least half aboriginal) I feel a great deal of sympathy for the wrongs done to their peoples in history, yes, even in very recent history. However, I find it very difficult to have a sense of personal responsibility for their history, and I must admit that when I hear someone say that I must reconcile the sins of my people, it drives a wedge between me and them. I suppose there are times, though, where a simple apology would go a long way to resolving relationships between races and cultures.
I don’t think it’s necessary to judge people for reacting to a tragedy in a way that expresses and resolves their true feelings, wherever they may be rooted. Perhaps it is better to try to understand those feelings, accept an apology (for their sakes), and go on.
Great post, Skindleshanks !
rob- you often have great insight as an expat living in korea. your objective commentary on korean culture and politics is often very refreshing. however, i think you’re being a little too objective on this one. yes i agree with you that the fact that this terrible tragedy was done by a person of korean descent is completely irrelevant to the suffering of the students in va or to the killer’s individual culpability. the fact that the killer was korean is not “completely irrelevant” though. It is very relevant to koreans. like many other commenters have pointed out, koreans are a homogeonous people. our successes and failures rise and fall together. for koreans this tragedy represents their failure (rightly or wrongly) as a society to raise this killer into a mentally sound person and upright citizen. being 2nd gen korean having only been to korea twice in my life, ive never really understood this mentality until yesterday. logically i cant explain the shame i felt. maybe its in our dna. all i know is that i felt a connection to this tragedy as a korean and my remorse was also tied to being korean.
that being said- i feel no need to apologize for being korean nor do i feel there is a need to apologize on behalf of the korean community-
i do however pray for these students and families affected by this tragedy- i think they will be in my thoughts and prayers for a long time to come.
Rorobot:
My (Korean) wife seems to have felt a little bit the way you describe it – that is why she was so shocked by the sight of a considerable number of Yuhaksaeng misbehaving…
“For a Korean to apologise for another Koreans actions is very much part of the Korean culture in my experience. Even when the Korean apologising is at no fault at all.
So for a Westerner to criticise a Korean for apologising is very much a sign that we wish to impose our value system on them.
Are we under some delusion that our values are in some way superior to Korean values?”
One thing you need to realize is that the Korean government knew that an apology is not needed in the eyes of most Americans, and in fact, an expression of empathy, of their condolences would have far more appropriate. This apology, my friend, was made for the benefit of the Korean public.
tomojiro:
Does realy most of the Korean American think that American in general will be able to discern just by glance who is a Chinese-,Japanese-,or Korean (or any other asian) american?
Unless the American is a close acquaintance or friend, the answer is generally no.
Perhaps you are aware of a case which happened in Louisiana, US in 1992. A Japanese international exchange student, Yoshihiro Hattori, was shot to death by American. Hattori was on his way to a Halloween party with some friends, got lost, and ended up at the American’s house by mistake. The American later claimed that he was genuinely frightened for his life by the sight of this Japanese kid, in a Halloween costume, on Halloween, asking about directions to a party.
The Korean community and Asian communities to an extent fear backlash and profiling by White Americans. This is why they make such apologies to preemptively reduce any chance for reprisals…
Sen. Shin’s reaction parallels the Korean American and Korean Virginia Tech students who have decided to flee the campus and not attend any of the mourning ceremonies, as if they are or should be ashamed.
There is no shame in having the same ethnic background as the shooter — it is, and should be discussed by the media AND BY KOREAN AMERICANS as being, incidental to Cho’s identity. He was a Korean-born American kid (since he grew up in the U.S. since 3) with *serious emotional disturbances.* Mental illness is clearly more of an issue here than race or ethnicity.
Let’s not add racial hatred to this already tragic event.
When I heard that the killer was Asian, I had this sinking feeling that he was Korean. I was greatly disturbed by the event beforehand. When this intuition came, I became terribly sad. Shame is not the right word. I am embarrassed that the killer was Korean American. I objectively know that the killer’s ethnicity was peripheral to his actions. Nonetheless, I have to fight the urge to pick apart Korean culture and find a cause there. Koreans owe no one an apology for what this mentally ill young man did. However, it is hard not to apologize. It is just very hard to keep condolences and compassion from transforming into guilt and apologies.
I, personally, don’t fear any kind of backlash. Perhaps those living in rougher areas should. Then again, if you live in an area where this fear is even close to rational, you should already have things in place to defend yourself.
The most appropriate words the Ambassador could have offered beyond the polite condolences one would expect from a diplomat is “Don’t repeat what happened with the media and public in my country in 2002 (twice) or 1995!”
What’s that…over 400 comments and counting now, across 3 threads? I have no desire to get into a discussion or debate over any aspect of this horrible tragedy—short of what little I’ve already written—and I’ve already expressed my sentiments on another thread. I’m just staring in gaping awe at the trainwreck that this blog has become overnight. For those who are mathematically inclined and also queasy about this whole discussion, a distraction:
Let u = number of useful, insightful, non-inflammatory comments that actually are actually conducive to a constructive dialogue.
Let t = total number of comments on this incident across all posts.
Let s = number of grains of sand on all the beaches in the world.
It can be shown that
t/u = 1/s
or
u = t/s
(This is not a slag only at the Marmot’s Hole…half the blogosphere seems to have lit up over this tragedy over the last couple of days.)
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
D’oh!
u = ts ==> u/t = 1/s
Oh, forget it. My brain is faster than my fingers. You get the idea.
Quit apologizing, quit being afraid of a non-existent backlash, and go on with your fucking lives.
Does this also mean I don’t have to apologize if Hines Ward fumbles the ball in a critical play or if Michelle Wie fails to make the cut (again)?
A very interesting discussion here. I tend to agree with Robert’s point that Cho should be judged as an individual, not as a Korean. Most Americans probably share this view.
The apologies seem to show that Koreans view the actions of this individual as somehow representative of his race or nation. And, their fear of reprisal reveals that they also, mistakenly, expect Americans to share their same approach to race and nationality. Which is why it’s so strange to see the Korean overreaction, with apologies and worry about anti-Korean rioting.
So, I think Damian has it backwards here – Koreans misunderstand American culture and perspectives, and are incorrectly imposing Korean values on Americans – not the other way around.
But Damian raises another interesting related question: is one view of individuals place in relation to race and nation better than another one?
“Are we under some delusion that our values are in some way superior to Korean values?”
Well, yes, in a multi-racial society, and world, I think judging individuals as individuals is a better value system. Systems of racial discrimination, and equating nation to race – these ideas have been discredited and are on the way out, and I think it’s a good thing. Even Korea is facing the prospects of becoming a multi-racial nation of sorts. In a world with increasing contact between nations, people will come to view others from different groups more as individuals, and rely less on racial and national stereotypes, and those are values I strongly support. Which is why I’m voting Obama in 2008!
I totally agree that the expressions of consolation are sufficient enough. Ambassador Lee’s apology and proposal to Korean churches were too much. The race or heritage of the gunman has nothing to do with this. This tragedy was obviously one individual’s horrible act. He was a disturbed, senseless,deranged young college boy who couldn’t fit into society, any society. Why he triggered a pistol towards 32 innocent student and other wounded ones? We really do not know exact reasons behind the massacre just like those others at Columbine and elsewhere.
rorobot @74 made good points explaining how we, Korean naturally feel about this tragedy and found out that the senseless killer was Korean. I also felt embarrassed at the moment when I heard that the killer was Korean. Adding my 20 won to his points, the reaction of Ambassodor Lee, Korean-American, YuHakSeang or other Korean could be alsounderstood with one of Korean attitudes. That Korean really cares about appearances. How others see us? How would they think about it? How would the World, especially American, views Korean after this tragedy? I mean EVERYTHING is about appearances directly and indirectly. You could even understand and explain the most behaviors, problems, cultures of Korea and Korean.
What more disgust and sicken me is that some Korean netizen started to raise ridiculous conspiracy theory on this tragedy. Like one idiot saying “I know and can tell you from my military experience that the pistol can’t be used for mass murder… blah blah blah…”
about this tragedy and found out that the senseless killer was Korean.
-> about this tragedy when we found out that the senseless killer was Korean.
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
The events of 2002 (from Salt Lake City to the schoolgirl deaths) are well recorded at places like the Metropolitician, One Free Korea and US In Korea, some of which have refreshed their sites with photos from that time.
My first reaction to news of an “Asian” shooter was, “Pakistani?” (I work for a British/international firm and outside the US, “Asian” tends to be applied more to those of South Asian origin.)
My second reaction was “I hope it’s not a Korean,” and this was firstly because I didn’t want to see any hassles or harm fall upon my Korean friends and co-workers, but mainly because of my strong fear that the ROK media, with netizen and NGO help, could somehow mishandle this issue and turn it into something more awful than it already was.
So far, based on a cursory read, there’s some tendentious and unbalanced reporting — the English dailies of Seoul leading with racial fears, without showing any real examples or talking to those who feel such fear are ungrounded — but, to my honest relief, not the kind of dangerous media malpractice we saw in 2002.
Newsweek is on top of the backlash:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18...../newsweek/
The “evidence” of a backlash in this article are some anonymous comments on a blog:
As if those kinds of comments can’t be found on a thousand blogs and bulletin boards every day of the goddamn year. BACKLASH! HIDE YOUR KOREAN CHILDREN! SOMEBODY SAID SOMETHING ON THE INTERNETS! PULL YOUR KOREAN 4-YEAR OLD FROM PRE-SCHOOL BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!
And the next piece of backlash evidence:
DEAR SWEET BABY JESUS, NOT ONLY ARE CHAT ROOMS FILLED WITH HATE, BUT THEY’RE THROBBING! DID YOU HEAR ME?!?!? THROBBING, I TELL YOU! RUUUUUUUNNNNNNN BEFORE YOU’RE HIT BY THROBJUICE!!!!!
OH FUCK, MORE BACKLASH! A FACEBOOK COMMENTER SAID GO BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY! THANK GOD NEWSWEEK WAS THERE TO DOCUMENT THE ATROCITY!
AND THEN SOMEONE COMPLAINS ABOUT IMMIGRANTS, JUST LIKE THEY DO ON TALK RADIO A MILLION TIMES A DAY IN EVERY COUNTRY ON EARTH! ALERT NEWSWEEK BEFORE IT TURNS INTO BLOODY RIOTS!
As if two anonymous comments weren’t enough to equal The Holocaust, we then have this:
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! SOMEONE MADE A JOKE AT WORK ABOUT POOR MR. KIM, CONFLATING HIM TO THE SHOOTER! THE BACKLASH IS TEARING THIS COUNTRY APART! IF A KOREAN HAS TO ENDURE ONE MORE JOKE ABOUT HIS POTENTIAL FOR VIOLENCE, THE TERRORISTS WILL WIN!
Oh wait…I apologize. Maybe I spoke to soon. Next we have Aimee Baldillo, spokeswoman for the Asian American Justice Center (or as its otherwise known, The Professional Victims Center), who says that her organization has received reports “of several crimes of retribution against the (Korean) community.”
There we have it. Real, confirmed evidence of the backlash.
Oops, spoke too soon…she says they are UNCONFIRMED reports of crimes of retribution. Which is code for “some Koreans at the mall in Tacoma started pissing their pants when a white dude looked at them funny, so they called Ms. Baldillo to report a crime of retribution against the Korean community.” Unfortunately, Ms. Baldillo has yet to examine the cell-phone photographs of this funny look, so it remains an UNCONFIMRED REPORT.
Soon enough, that cocked eyebrow will be confirmed and then this entire Newsweek cluster-fuck about a backlash consisting of an office joke and some internet comments will be considered a LEGITIMATE news story. At that point, all the Koreans in the US currently hiding in their basements will have the evidence they need to justify their overwhelming fears.
By the way, the Newsweek Backlash exclusive about throbbing chat rooms of hate was brought to you by Jessica Bennett and Noelle CHUN. That’s Chun, C-H-U-N. Chun. Let’s all pray to God and/or Allah that Ms. Chun (C-H-U-N) didn’t have to personally endure any ribbing from co-workers about her potential for violence as a result of her being Korean-American. It’s bad enough that Korean-Americans are being attacked by throbbing chat rooms of hate, but having to listen to jokes from co-workers is a fate worse than death. Even for a Korean-American journalist intent on fanning backlash fears with NO FUCKING EVIDENCE OF IT EVEN OCCURRING.
“Koreans owe no one an apology for what this mentally ill young man did. However, it is hard not to apologize. It is just very hard to keep condolences and compassion from transforming into guilt and apologies.”
I perfectly understand what you’re saying. I too felt like a heel, when I know perfectly well that this was not my fault and that the killer’s Korean background shouldn’t matter at all. Nevertheless, “ashamed” and “sorry” is all I can describe it as. Is it cultural? I don’t think so. When a woman friend of mine laughed and said today, ‘you don’t look like that killer in Virgina’, it was meant to be a joke with no harmful intentions, but it’s still a reminder to me that this stigma will be there for a long long time, and that this touches me personally.
From today’s (Wed 18 April US time) opinionjournal.com. Too enjoyable not to repost here, let’s see if it survives the blog monitor:
(begin quote from OJ):
The ‘Asian American’ Journalists Association, an association of journalists, has issued the following statement in response to the Virginia Tech massacre:
“Like the rest of the nation, we at the ‘Asian American’ Journalists Association (‘AA’JA) are stunned at the news of today’s shooting at Virginia Tech. Our thoughts are with the victims and their families and friends as they cope with this horrific incident.
As coverage of the Virginia Tech shooting continues to unfold, ‘AA’JA urges all media to avoid using racial identifiers unless there is a compelling or germane reason. There is no evidence at this early point that the race or ethnicity of the suspected gunman has anything to do with the incident, and to include such mention serves only to unfairly portray an entire people.”
(OJ cont’d): The ‘Asian American’ Journalists Association has a point. We are going to follow the advice of the ‘Asian American’ Journalists Association, whose “….mission is to encourage ‘Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders’ (‘AAPIs’) to enter the ranks of journalism, to work for fair and accurate coverage of ‘AAPIs’, and to increase the number of ‘AAPI’ journalists and news managers in the industry…”, and avoid using racial identifiers.
Meanwhile, a Reuters headline writer engages in a bit of invidious stereotyping: “English Major Blamed for Virginia Tech Shooting.” Where’s the English Major Journalists Association when you need it?
(end OJ quote)
I saw somewhere accounts of Korean (from Korea) students going about campus in groups of 3 or 4 and hunkering down in the library all day. My reaction: things must be back to normal. But this was in a story about alarmed overseas students.
I want to stipulate:
1) One insulting or off-color remark to a Korean who isn’t Pawi is one too many.
2) I am joking in stipulation 1, Pawi.
MrChips,
“It’s one thing to understand and accept a cultural difference but I think it is entirely another thing to accept that particular difference as acceptable.”
– This is never a normative or metanormative thing. We are talking about differences that exist in fact.
“Shame and guilt by assocation come dangerously close to an us-versus-them mindset where we take pride or feel shame based on some, ultimately fictional, group identity. ”
– Ultimately fictional? You’re conflating many things. I like the sentiment, yes. I agree: There should be no “us” and “them” or groups. But you’re missing that responding to such divisions as such or to such mindsets are “wrong” only depending on 1) who’s conserving these mindsets when they’re not practically real or are totally irrelevant, and on 2) who’s merely acting in response to these mindsets because they are real or relevant.
“1″, above, is wrong. 2 is never wrong. The Korean response doesn’t fall in line with 1. You’re confusing something else, but I’ll ignore it as i’m trying to keep this short.
“Drawing boundaries at which we feel more, or less, guilt is tantamount to saying that I care more about eh actions of one stranger than another sipmly becuse of his race.”
– But what you’re writing presumes choice or preference whereas in this case, Koreans are apologizing because certain group dynamics are real in fact and not the kind they are imposing on themselves but ones that they must deal with because they are real. (See 2 and 3 — the fact that Chinese and other minorities in America responded the same way on Monday is also relevant)
“I am belaboring this point because this is not a small issue in my mind. To the contrary, I am persuaded that this is a chief fault of humanity that we are incessant about diffusing guilt onto those around us. Essentially it is a product of pride and we all know where that leads us.”
Diffusing guilt onto those around us? That’s begging the question.
“I will take a sidebar here and recommend a book to anyone willing to invest a smidgen of time in it. Frankly, I disagree with alot of what he writes but Anthony Appiah in his book “The Ethics of Identity” provides some valuable insight to the ramifications of responsibility by assocation /identity at the cost of personal freedom, and hence, responsiblity. Again I think this notion of diffusing responsibility to society, or more so to an ethnic stock, is a dangerous and ultimately fatal attempt to lighten our individual sense of culpibility…worldwide, not just Korean, and in my perception led by Americans (just not the ethnic part.^_*) ”
Thanks for the recommendation (not that I’d be so bold as to waste my time reading “ethics” books by nonentity authors) but again I disagree with the premises. Namely, I don’t believe the Korea issue can be characterized as one of “diffusing” responsibility.
“I will let anyone else have the last word since this is clearly not an argument to be won with words. And, I hope no one feels any ill will by my strong feelings on this.”
I also disagree that such an argument can’t be won with words. How else are they won? Cartwheels?
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
I’d rather the South Koreans apologized for the F*** USA songs and movies of the last 5-6 years…
The VT shooter was just another mentally ill guy with a gun (although the “Ismail Ax” may indicate an Islamic connection)…
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
The Metropolitician touches on some of it here http://tinyurl.com/345skg
I was pretty much ready to leave Korea in 2002 – it was a hostile place. I would hear “fuck you” or at least reasonable facsimiles of it every day I left the house. A smattering of “get out” or for those that knew a little more “get out of my country” – everyday.
I was refused service on multiple occasions and getting a taxi was even more difficult than normal. Some si-called “friends” also became somewhat hostile and would not talk – but if they did it was quite accusatory as they bought into the signs stating “You are all guilty”.
Nothing physical happened to me but there were multiple stories of individuals being attacked by groups of university aged looking guys in the popular places such as Hongdae. None of this would be reported as most foreigners here do not even bother with reporting such incidents to the police as the results are pretty much a given.
Other people’s experiences may vary.
A good point that bears repeating.
There will be absolutely NO backlash, nor should there be. Koreans are quite simply projecting when they express their fears of one.
Imagine if the situation were reversed: a loner Canadian comes to Korea to teach English, starts stalking a Korean girl who wants nothing to do with him, and in frustration takes a class full of hogwon kids hostage and kills some.
You would see an xenophobic backlash in Korea the likes of which would make the Taewongun blush.
We got minor tastes of that in 2002 with the schoolgirl accident and again with the Apolo Ohno thing.
I do not want Koreans to apologize for Cho — I want them to apologize for their hypocrisy and cheap attempts to stir up xenophobia whenever it suits them.
Maybe now that Cho has shocked them into realizing they have the same human flaws as other races, they will be able to reflect a bit.
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
Got that right.
Perhaps it’s that competitive streak. The one that sees real victims and screams, “Me too!”
Probably too early for the Japanese to be blamed.
But the reporters will dig into the Cho family’s background and create the connection.
“The VT shooter was just another mentally ill guy with a gun (although the “Ismail Ax” may indicate an Islamic connection)…”
My guess is that the connection only existed in his troubled mind.
Again, I doubt this will affect South Koreans…unless the hopes of some anti-Americans here that it will stem racist attacks on Korean-Americans comes trues (yes, they hope it does as this would certainly drive a wedge between South Koreans and Americans).
Most Koreans are not worried that all of America are going to form a united, systematic front against Koreans. (And the reverse is not true: most Americans are not thinking that Koreans and asians are rejoicing all over the world – even if a few Americans at certain websites do believe this.) But let’s admit that there is something to worry about, there is a huge cultural impact that follows here; racial tensions have been excaserbated which we can see in all the anti-Korean (and anti-Asian) vitriol going around on relatively neutral sites like youtube, which I mention since we’re discounting personal anecdotes. This fear that Koreans have is not just a peculiar “Korean” sentiment. I’d even venture to call it common sense consideirng how it’s being expressed by other Asian Americans who knows what it’s like to be perceived as a “them” in American society.
I hope the majority of people reading here don’t buy this “It’s all in the heads of Koreans and their peculiar paranoia, and that’s insulting to me” spittle by blueballs and others. They make a life of condemning and pathologizing every thing Koreans do. It’s a very transparent agenda, but I am not sure if I should characterize it as such, as an “agenda”. It might be more something along the lines of “groupthink” that certain irrational individuals obsessed with or working in Korea can’t help.
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
OK, about Korean fears of a backlash, I don’t necessarily blame them for being nervous—they are a small minority and they do have a history—the LA Riots in the U.S. and the anti-Koreans vigilante actions following the Kanto Earthquake of 1923 in Japan—of being targeted by group violence. But clearly, projection and/or awareness of 2002 are part of it, too. And this plays into the whole “apology” thing as well. I’ve noticed a number of comments to that affect at Naver.com, etc. Take for example this piece at OhMyNews (linked above, but here it is again)—the very newspaper that played the leading role in the 2002 demonstrations—by a netizen calling for candlelight ceremonies for the victims of Virginia Tech:
Now, of course, a lot of the comments attached disagree, citing the need not to apologize for a killer, Cho was not really a Korean, the 2002 tank incident was different, etc. But even at Naver.com, when people have suggested that an apology (rather than simple condolences) would be inappropriate, I’ve seen counter-comments to the affect of, “What’s wrong with you? Don’t you know that if it had been an American who did it here, the backlash would be much worse?” or “Don’t you remember what happened in 2002?”
Lots of complex emotions/arguments going around.
Enjoy the bunker then. Bring padding for the walls.
They just can’t help themselves, can they? Still have to work in the “unfair SOFA” and “uncountable GI crimes”. What will it take to get through their heads?
dogbertt—Ignore the one sentence for now, please. It’s not really relevant.
What is more relevant, however, is this part (which I didn’t copy above):
Now, you could probably have fun with that last part, but it’s the initial part that I find more relevant in terms of the discussion of “communal guilt/communal apologies.”
dogbertt,
racism from anyone is bad. but the name of the game is not: pin or avoid the most blame points on one group in favor of another. that’s petty politics. but i guess it’s true that some people here can’t avoid this m.o. even perhaps when they should.
Now this, from the JoongAng Ilbo (which, coincidentally, made a point NOT to apologize for the incident). Very pertinent to this discussion:
Interesting discussion, that must have been.
Thanks, Robert. I will take a look at it.
I’ll say, as one who like you, is fully capable of reading (and does read) various Korean newspapers with full understanding and parses them, I put little stock into “Oh My News” or the “Hankyoreh”, for reasons you well know.
There were groups of USFK soldiers and civilian personnel who did just that. I doubt there were in the U.S., if for no other reason than it was a traffic accident and not a crime, which is a point the Korean media will never get.
I doubt that “they” (I’m following the Korean reporter’s generalization) would. Instead, the same old stereotypes would apply.
In fact, it’s doubtful “they” would even know if Americans did that, as the Korean media at the time assiduously avoided ANY COVERAGE of USFK apologies, sympathy payments, or expressions of grief by personnel, which were only covered in the non-Korean media.
The Korean media as a whole is shamelessly irresponsible. I would love to rub the real facts in that ignorant OhMyNews reporter’s smug face.
Very insulting. Implying that Americans did not care about the 2002 incident. As I said, the USFK personnel here did care. I cared, other expats cared. It is Korean liars like this reporter who are purposely stirring up anti-American feelings even now under the guise of sympathy for the VT victims. Can you not see that? Read that sentence again.
AGAIN!! He cannot help but point out that Koreans are the race that most love peace. Forget about Kim Jong-il, forget about Kwangju. Damned irresponsible reporter.
And yet, all we hear is how the U.S. media shouldn’t write “Cho Seung-Hui”. The hypocrisy is astounding.
Now, Yonhap (Korean) is pointing out that a government apology might very well send the wrong message by insinuating that somehow, Korea is a guilty party. Taking to American Korea experts, Yonhap also pointed out that anti-foreign sentiment has always been a part of American life, and anti-Asian incident, it they’re going to happen, will happen regardless of an apology.
“우리 민족이 어떤 민족보다 평화를 사랑하는 사람들임을 나는 믿는다” LOL what a crock that is. The Korean media is sooo unprofessional and pandering it’s ridiculous.
One Naver commenter actually gets it:
Unfortunately, as “jk” informs me, Naver commenters are not representative of average Koreans. Too bad, in this case.
Well, frankly, the park that spooked me about that line is, to get back to the original point, is that it implies that “group guilt” works both ways, namely, that ethnic groups, not individuals, are responsible for the evil that their members may do, and the consequences of that 민족적 thinking can be quite severe—if Korea has in its collective past LA and the Kanto Earthquake, it also has the Wanpaoshan Incident of 1931, too. Looking into my magic crystal ball, I predict at least some discussion and reflection on this point in the Korean press in the weeks to come.
At any rate, I was impressed by Yun Gyeong-geun (the writer of the OhMy piece) managed to put 2 and 2 together, even if his political biases and nationalist hyperbole at the end might make it seem otherwise.
Michael—
I’m sure I needn’t point this out, but the article in question was a netizen contribution (OhMy’s bread-and-butter, after all, it citizen journalism), and probably not indicative of the Korean media as a whole, which is unprofessional and pandering at time, but usually for completely different reasons.
Of course, Robert, the validity of group guilt is not a concept unique to Korea. In our Western context, we have chewed over the group guilt of the German people for decades.
I hope that most people in the U.S. do not adhere to the “sins of the father” ideology and I hope that Koreans will eventually shed that. No Korean person (with the exception of his parents) should feel any obligation to apologize for the crimes of a madman.
To take this on a different tack (but sticking to the topic of what happened at V-Tech on Monday), it looks increasingly like this young man had a minor history of mental illness, based on school records, classmates’ and instructors’ impressions, records of court proceedings, etc. He was never committed to an institution long term, but did go through the mental health system for a while.
Between the first and second batches of shootings on Monday, he mailed a videotape to NBC News—a manifesto of sorts. Even if race were an underlying factor, there is no mention of it in what I have read. Nor was he motivated by mysogyny, such as drove Marc Lepine at l’Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal in 1989.
He seems to have been consumed with some kind of class-based resentment, tied up with obsession over a real or imagined slight. I don’t know if this developed in response to a specific incident, or a long history of perceived mistreatment, but the Associated Press article I read quotes him from his tape, complaining about “brats” and “snobs” with their “Mercedes,” “golden necklaces,” “vodka,” “cognac,” and “debaucheries.”
(Source: )
(Source for 121: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/vir.....Q8xems0NUE)
Hmmm…in that case, someone should have sent him to North Korea to assassinate Kim Jong-il.
Some of my co-workers were pointing out today that Cho resembles Kim’s eldest son, the porky, unshaven one.
This “group guilt” is a harmful belief that needs to go into the dustbin along with the other racialist tropes Korea has been feeding itself since the late 1800s.
Sewing–I really think Cho had an organic mental illness and the “class-based resentment” was a kind of phantasm he created, like people who say they have aliens in their stomach or whatever. In other words I wouldn’t ascribe that as a motive for his actions.
Not buying it Robert. Kanto? Japanese treatment of Koreans 80+ years ago has no rational bearing on reasonsable fears today. The LA riots had little to do with specifically targeting Koreans. The violence was targeting people and businesses all over LA, and Koreans happened to have a large concentration of the businesses where some of the worst rioting occurred. Out of the close to 60 people killed in the riots, 2 were Asian. It was a case of a riot occurring in and around Koreatown, not a riot specifically directed at Koreans. Black, white, and Latino businesses and people suffered just as much or more.
Arabs in America after 9/11 had legitimate reasons to be nervous given the actual (although scattered and rare) incidents of backlash that were occurring, the scale of the attack that triggered it, the history of Arab attacks on America, and the climate of fear at the time.
None of those things are true currently. There is nothing occurring outside of internet bullshit, which occurs all the time anyway and is not outside the norm. The attack was made by a single individual from an ethnic group that has very little recognition, much less negative history to most Americans. And the climate is completely different than post-9/11. Right now there is mostly confusion, sadness, and mourning, as opposed to the overwhelming anger and calls for retaliation/revenge after 9/11. It doesn’t take a genius to see the difference in the two situations and differentiate the risk of backlash. However it does take someone looking at the facts clearly, logically, and without allowing emotion to overwhelm sense.
I’m not breaking any news when I say that the Korean tendency is to let emotion rule and disregard a rational analysis of the situation. Unfortunately, to me the Korean and KA reaction to this has highlighted just how little they understand the country many of them have chosen to live in. Anyone (and I include white journalists who enable this paranoid bullshit) who was expecting a backlash against Koreans is ignorant of America and Americans. Plain and simple.
You can claim that there are reasons for Koreans to be nervous. But you can’t claim that there are reasonable, rational, or understandable reasons to be nervous. The entire backlash hysteria being perpetuated in the media (both Korean and American) is fake, manufactured, paranoid, and completely devoid of real incidents of backlash actually occurring. It’s a media-manufactured storm being fed by fools.
Class-based resentments!? If true, he was Korean after all.
I have to agree with dogbert, that IS insulting. Why do the Korean media keep referring to the 2002 accident as an “incident”. The Korean that killed all those people at Virginia Tech caused an incident, the accidental road death of two Korean schoolgirls was not.
The last line is just pure racialism. “I believe our race is a more peace loving race than any other race”. Bullshit. Virginia Tech is evidence of the lie.
“don’t know if this developed in response to a specific incident, or a long history of perceived mistreatment, but the Associated Press article I read quotes him from his tape, complaining about “brats” and “snobs” with their “Mercedes,” “golden necklaces,” “vodka,” “cognac,” and “debaucheries.””
Judging by that picture of his shaved angry face, he looks completely wacked. It gave me the shivers. His ramblings and his background suggest his resentment toward his own life.
AMEN!
” 우리 민족이 어떤 민족보다 평화를 사랑하는 사람들임을 나는 믿는다.
I have to agree with dogbert, that IS insulting. Why do the Korean media keep referring to the 2002 accident as an “incident”. ”
Why do people consistently focus on some comments, and even labeled them as “Korean media”, while ignoring others that don’t fit the stereotypes of Koreans as wack jobs? Korean internet sites aren’t the only places where racist comments appear all too often. Somedays, go over to youtubes, yahoo, etc and have a look at some of the ignorant garbage that gets posted.
“The Korean that killed all those people at Virginia Tech caused an incident, the accidental road death of two Korean schoolgirls was not.”
No kidding.
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
Michael (124): I’m no psychologist, but he was evidently not sociable (he was even a stranger to his dorm-mate) and I figured he was not well-adjusted, and in his distorted mental worldview, maybe resented all the students around him for enjoying their lives (insofar as most young adults in a post-secondary institution are well-adjust socially and apart from exam and term paper stress, enjoying a good time in their lives), and this somehow got twisted in his mind with resentment of the sort of dolce vita or joie de vivre that comes easily with money. In Canada, we saw the horrific incident in Montreal in 1989 in which a young man came to think that his life was screwed up because he imagined that he was being held back by the career and educational opportunities that are now available to women, acted on his distorted conceptions, and took the lives of 14 women.
…Or are you suggesting that it could be not even that, but the sorts of imaginings that are induced by, say, schizophrenia—like he imagined that there was a specific rich person or group of wealthy people who were tormenting him?
Marmot, I’m well aware of OhMy”News” and it’s nutizen contributions–it casts itself as having more integrity than the mainstream press, does it not? I’ve looked at it a couple of times and find its presumptions laughable, especially that untrained, unprofessional contributors have any edge whatsoever over their ostensible peers in the media.
I have to kind of disagree with you here, that choice quote I picked out is pure Korean “journalism” at its finest, even if it was in a commentary. I’ve read plenty of variations on that in supposedly straight news stories here.
I’m not sure if my last comment makes sense, but you can probably get the gist of it.
“Why are Koreans and Korean-Americans focusing on the fact that U.S. press coverage accurately reported that Cho was a Korean and spelled his name properly?”
I never did such. Where did I write that?
“Class-based resentments!? If true, he was Korean after all.”
Right. Becareful next time you see a homeless Korean.
Sewing–OK, I’m just an armchair psychologist who likes to read up on neuroscience, so yeah I’m saying something like schizophrenia. How the brain drives behavior is still not well understood, check out books by Oliver Sacks and Antonio R. Damasio for some really interesting studies on this.
Korean embassy personnel, Korean-American state senators and ordinary ethnic Koreans are offering sincere yet unnecessary apologies. Meanwhile, the Choson Ilbo cartoon for April 19 has declared Korea the “thirty-third victim”:
http://photo.chosun.com/site/d.....00773.html
Sonagi just proved my point again with that cartoon–the Korean media is pandering and unprofessional.
Pandering to what?
I don’t agree with the cartoon, but in the minds of the cartoonist, Cho dragged Korea’s name into the mud, giving it a bad reputation in the world (which I think is going way overboard, but pandering?) I guess it depends on how you interpret the cartoon.
Sonagi—The Chosun Ilbo? Go figure. Only slightly less classless than the Seoul Shinmun (I’m sure you saw it at Occidentalism). Coincidentally, the Seoul Shinmun announced that the cartoonist who drew that cartoon, Baek Mu-hyeon, would be taking a rest for a while. Of course, one might wonder whether the paper, which withdrew the cartoon after the identity of the shooter was learned, or the artist would have taken the measures they have if the shooter wasn’t Korean…
I thought this was kinda entertaining, if you care to laugh at all the ignoramas.
http://www.youtube.com/comment.....T2c7nJakyg
cm—I know the Chosun probably didn’t think about it very much, but let’s say, for argument’s sake, the New York Times ran a similar cartoon after, say, a deranged English teacher shooting up a hagwon. Don’t you think a lot of Koreans might take that as 한국인을 무시하기, namely, that Americans are more concerned about national reputation than dead Koreans? Now, I know Koreans are not unmoved about the victims, and even the Chosun Ilbo’s front page was rather touching, but a cartoon like that—even if I happened to agree with it (or at least the concerns it expresses)—well, it’s just NOT THE RIGHT TIME for it.
In contrast to the tasteless cartoon, the Chosun has opened an online condolence book:
http://forum.chosun.com/bbs.me.....s_id=10414
Most messages seem sincere. A few are written in English.
Cho did not drag Korea’s name through the mud, cm. Watch the videos he made on that day. Listen to testimonies from credible people like renowned poet Nikki Giovanni, who removed him from her creative writing class. The young man was deeply disturbed. He was mentally ill. Mental illness is a sickness like cancer or pneumonia. I pray that the souls of all the dead, including Cho’s, rest in peace. I hope that Koreans will realize that Cho did not tarnish Korea’s image. He was mentally ill, for crying out f***ing loud! The families of 33 people have lost a loved one in the most horrible way, and that includes Cho’s family, who must be anguished beyond our understanding. Any Koreans who think this mentally disturbed man “dragged Korea through the mud” need to get off the pity pot and start empathizing with others who are really suffering instead of feeling sorry for themselves!
Robert, point taken.
“Cho did not drag Korea’s name through the mud, cm.”
Sonagi, read again what I wrote. I wrote I don’t agree with it. Maybe you should post that in the youtubes hate comment sections.
Thanks for the link, cm. There are several videos featuring the Seoul Shinmun cartoon. The Japanese are prolific contributors of Korea-related content to Youtube.
Sonagi, can you summarize for me, the general mood out there in the Korea related Japanese internet world? I’ve not been to occidentalism yet, but I can imagine what it will be like.
“I do not want Koreans to apologize for Cho — I want them to apologize for their hypocrisy and cheap attempts to stir up xenophobia whenever it suits them.”
Hear, hear.
“This “group guilt” is a harmful belief that needs to go into the dustbin along with the other racialist tropes Korea has been feeding itself since the late 1800s.”
Amen.
“Meanwhile, the Choson Ilbo cartoon for April 19 has declared Korea the “thirty-third victim”:”
Oh, oh, that victimhood angle yet again.
Spot on. If anything will cause a backlash, it is idiocy like the cartoons or these ongoing self-pity parties being held.
Koreans need to just chill, be quiet, and reflect now.
Oh, goodness, so now we’re going to dissect the rhetoric of a single reporter about how Koreans are the most peace-loving people in the world and condemn the entire Korean media for it. Obviously, the journalist is trying to appeal to the better instincts of the Korean people. Yes, the superior tone about being “the most peace-loving” people in the world is hyperbolic to say the least, but hardly a day goes by in the American media without a pundit or a columnist waxes poetic about how America is the freest nation in the world and so on.
And in fact, the US may be the only nation in which its own people and media routinely trumpet the opinion “that it’s best damn country in the whole wild world” as if it were some kind of an objective fact. How many times have you heard the phrase “we’re the most freedom-loving people in the world” or something to that effect spoken or written by an American journalist?
And since you want to bring up Gwangju and Kim Jong-il to say that the Korean journalist is irresponsible in saying that Koreans are peace-loving, let me point out that the first 15 presidents of the US condoned enslavement of blacks and extermination of Native Americans as national policy. Some near 20 presidents after Lincoln condoned lynching of blacks and segregation as policy. So I guess that means that no US journalist should ever be able to utter a phrase about how Americans love freedom.
Brilliant logic.
What I stated about the American media’s deliberate presentation of Cho’s name in a Korean way and as opposed to the Americsn convention still stands. And it’s all the more curious because now there is an AP article about his siter, and her name is presented in the American way, and not the Korean way. Strange, to say the least.
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2.....er,00.html
Snow, read the comments in chosun. There’s not much , if any support for the cartoons.
Here’s a small excpert from a post from a large message board written by the admin in a thread about race relations in America (which was started actually in response to Don Imus affairs):
[quote]“i heard the stories in my area about what they had to deal with post-9/11. it’s similar to things we’re reading about in soompi now, about members having signs saying “chink” taped to their chairs, [b]kids asking how dare they show their face at school[/b], officials calling up korean parents to ask if something’s up with their kids, mailboxes being smashed, having to leave school because of harassment. “[/quote]
^ I hope the bolded sentence comes through. Basic worry about retaliation is reasonable. It’s the way of the world to think in terms of groups, “us”, and “them”. This is not Korean “paraonoia”, it’s not the Korean sense, it’s common sense, and it’s obvious. Other asians have felt the same, and now we see non-asians revealing the same “Korean” consciousness of groups.
The question of whether this thinking is bad or not is fallacious. Rather than “right” or “wrong”, the point is that it’s a “basic” part of the human condition. We don’t choose it. We have to try to build beyond it, but that doesn’t mean we can pretend these tensions don’t exist in the first place and start playing skewed and awfully paltry blame games against the groups who understand that those tensions are real. Business as usual at Marmot’s!
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
To abcdefg and bluetranslator, let’s be more considerate to the victims and their loved ones. This is not the right time to slag on America. And with that, I think I’ll take dogbertt’s advice:
“Koreans need to just chill, be quiet, and reflect now.”
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
The reaction by the Korean community is appropriate in this instance. Better to take collective apology first and ask questions later than to let others begin criticism about how this incident has something to do with the “Korean character.” Let’s be honest here: if Koreans just went on with business as usual, then people would ask wny Koreans felt no sense of shame about this guy.
“I don’t agree with the cartoon, but in the minds of the cartoonist, Cho dragged Korea’s name into the mud, giving it a bad reputation in the world (which I think is going way overboard, but pandering?) I guess it depends on how you interpret the cartoon.”
I’ll refrain from entertaining the idea until I know how the cartoonist feels about Kim Jong Il’s daily attempts at dragging Korea’s name in the mud. He’s undoubtedly the main reason South Korea has an image problem…which is why the government tries its best to win the right to win the rights to host international events such as the Olympics, the World Cup, etc.
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
abcdefg, I don’t want to start another whole argument with you. Whether what you said is right or wrong all I’m saying is, just let it go, and let’s move on.
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
I agree that the sentence is mostly stylistic hyperbole, and that US pundits do it to, although—for the record—I do find the terminology employed troubling and part of a larger ideological issue. I also agree that one reporter does not the Korean media make, and I did not intend for it to be taken so. Frankly, I liked the bulk of the article, which I thought was well-thought out, frank and historically reflective. The only part of that piece I found disturbing was this:
Certainly, you see what that implies, no? And it ties in with the whole debate on group apologies/guilt.
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
abcdefg: for blockquotes, see here.
I agree somewhat with #60. I remember in ‘02 and ‘03 Koreans saying things like “go home Yankee”, “die Yankee” and “F**k you Yankee” not to mentioned the shouldering and even a punch in the stomach. When I told them that I was Canadian, they just told me Canada and the US are the same. Koreans know how they react to such things, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they expected the same things from Americans. Although I can’t see Americans putting up signs saying that Koreans aren’t welcome in their business establishments like the Koreans did/do.
“However, it is not kyopo-baiting as much as it is a reaction to the provocations of such as h. kim, “bluetranslator” and the like, which follow a sad pattern.”
I haven’t paid much attention to H.Kim’s posts, but the ones written by bluetranslator eloquently raise some very good points. I wouldn’t label them as being ‘provocations’.
Agreed.
I should correct that and say…”the one’s I’ve read that were written by bluetranslator”. I don’t think I’ve read all his posts, but he does raise quite a few good points in the one’s I’ve read.
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
Dogbertt, please grow up. I choose to where I live for a reason, and you choose where you live for a reason. I never said both my parents and I dislike living in the US, did I? I was refuting your argument with LOGIC.
You’re hammering this one Korean journalist for a type of hyperbolic, flag-waving, ethnocentric statement that is made damn near daily in the US media. That was the point I was trying to make.
But if you want to turn this into a sophomoric argument of “if you hate it here, why don’t you go back?” What in the world are you doing in Korea since you seem to have nothing remotely respectful much less positive to say about the place?
And also, as I challenged you before in another thread, if you want to talk about “immigrants” in what is now the US, let’s talk about what the original European “pioneers” (lmao, talk about euphemism) did to the majority population living at the time. I moved to the US in accordance with US laws, and I have the right to point out its flaws as well as its many many strengths. Of course, I could follow the European “pioneer” method instead, and just try to exterminate the existing population. CRY ME A RIVER.
YoungRocco2:
I see your argument. But if I might inquire, has anyone—at least in the United States—really suggested that somehow, this had something to do with the Korean character? Moreover, would it be fair to say that those who might make those connections and/or seek to take retribution against local Koreans would do so regardless of whether the Korean ambassador took collective responsibility for the incident? And furthermore, might one also argue that by making a collective apology, the Korean ambassador might mistakenly convey to Americans that somehow, Korea and Koreans are somehow to blame?
Again, perhaps, although to be more specific, I think many of the commenters might ask why Koreans felt no sense of shame about this guy when they expect other ethnic groups to express collective shame/responsibility when their nationals do wrong in Korea. It’s a fair enough question, albeit one based on a generalization, and it’s at least partially why (leaving aside for a moment that the ambassador’s statement came dangerously close to imparting guilt on 1 million Korean-Americans and may have departed from the official Foreign Ministry line) I find the collective apologies to be troublesome (namely, because I’d have to imply from that foreign nationals should be subject to collective contrition/punishment when one of their nationals screws up here). And at a time when Korea is becoming increasingly multicultural, I do find that problematic.
bluetranslator—I’ve given Dogbertt a warning, and I’d prefer if we could remain somewhere resembling on-topic (a joke at this point, I admit).
SomeguyinKorea—I was a translator of sorts. Actually, not “of sorts”—that was my actual position. But not anymore. And no, he’s not a sock
CM, yes it is pandering. Two of the biggest tropes in Korean media are the Other has wronged us/hurt our collective “pride” and self-pity/self-victimization. I think it goes back to the guys who worked to form Koreans’ sense of nationalism in the late 1800s.
But yes, America has it’s own self-congratulating mythologies as well.
And how about this for pointless speculation:
“The inspiration for perhaps the most inexplicable image in the set that Cho Seung-Hui mailed to NBC news on Monday may be a movie from South Korea that won the Gran Prix prize at Cannes Film Festival in 2004.”
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/tag/virginia/
A little pandering from across the Pacific.
I met Paul Shin two years ago in Seoul at a KUSEC meeting. He uses the same shtick of how he taught himself English. He went from the “ABC’s” To PHD, a reasonably good guy for a Democrat. I personally am shocked by his pandering, but then again he is a Democrat.
I’m not breaking any news when I say that the Korean tendency is to let emotion rule and disregard a rational analysis of the situation. Unfortunately, to me the Korean and KA reaction to this has highlighted just how little they understand the country many of them have chosen to live in. Anyone (and I include white journalists who enable this paranoid bullshit) who was expecting a backlash against Koreans is ignorant of America and Americans. Plain and simple.
Oh I think we understand America very well. Since much reference is made to 9/11 and the experience of Muslims in America, allow me to expound upon that. I listen often to conservative talk radio. Given the current War on Terror, Iraq, and the situation with Iran, every so often, I hear this question raised: “where is the opposing voice of the moderate Muslims in all of this?”
While I don’t believe that an official apology from Korea was warranted, I guess the Koreans thought it was better to not err on the side of indifference. Maybe this is one of those damned if you do or damned if you don’t sort of things. But I’m beginning to think that this whole apology issue is an issue mostly with expats with a history with Korea.
I’m being absolutely repetitive here but I’ll post for the last time: This is not about “Korean” character. You’re projecting projections. Many asian minorities- NOT JUST THE KOREANS- felt afraid on Monday and Tuesday. And so did I. Why? Not because I think “Americans” are so horrible or certainly not because I’d act a certain way in the same situation tables turned. But because I know that human beings can be wacked.
It’s ironic that those who are so eager to criticize Koreans on this point are so entrenched in this game of “we” vs “them” mentality themselves. Indeed the ultimate irony is that most every criticism on this page fundamentally proceeds from this racialism, “Koreans” this, and “Koreans” that.
Lots of skewed perspectives and thinking going on here but I can agree with many of the points. Announcing to Korean Americans to avoid malls or something is just stupid.
I have to admit that when I first saw the picture of Cho with the hammer, I was immediately reminded of the very scene with Oh Dae-se with the hammer from Oldboy. Is it a pointless speculation? Well, who knows? There is no CAUSATION between watching violent movies and committing violect acts. But there is a CORRELATION. So I imagine there will be endlessdebates as to how much the violence in the media contributes to violent crimes.
Oldboy is a great film in my opinion. But I probably would not recommend it to a disturbed person like Cho. In the end, no matter how many violent films or hardships he may have been exposed to, Cho is responsible for the crimes he committed.
Completely false. If you want to justify the shame, fine. But quit trying to lay it on some find of American expectation that doesn’t exist. I don’t know anyone that would ask why Koreans felt no sense of shame. The only way Americans would even care about the Korean reaction would be if it were celebration and schadenfreude, both of which were prevelant in Korea after 9/11. Other than that, there is no American expectation of Korean shame over the event, and no one would care if there were none.
In fact, I’m sure most Americans can’t even understand why Roh would apologize or why there is such hand-wringing in Korea and among KA’s in America, because if the situation were reversed, the American reaction to an American killer of Koreans in Korea would be “fucking nutball.” No apologies, no sense of responsibility, no shame. Nothing.
Christ, the amount of projection going on among Koreans over this would make a psych major blow numerous loads in his pants. Koreans have created an entire fantasy world in which Americans are vengeful monsters hunting down Koreans on every street corner in the US, the international reputation of Korea has taken a massive blow, and the only way to mitigate the first two is by going into hiding, holding candlelight vigils or issuing apologies until the fucking cows come home.
Ditch the fantasy world of bullshit and try mixing some goddamn reality into your diet. For once.
Blue, that funny because when I saw the same photo I thought of how so many American slasher B-movies had a scene where the killer held up a hammer exactly like that–it’s a cliche.
Now, if he had a live octopus in his mouth it would be another story.
Blueballs, I fixed your sentence: “Koreans have created an entire fantasy world in which [USFK created a] vengeful monster hunting down Koreans on every street corner in [Seoul in a movie called "The Host."]
You’re welcome
Bluetranslator, every “European-American” living in the U.S. is there legally as well. It’s disingenuous for a Korean immigrant to the U.S. to point fingers about Europeans “taking the land”, when if Europeans hadn’t done so, they wouldn’t have built the societies Korean emigrants chose to live in, namely the U.S., Canada, New Zealand, and Australia.
I’m just saying, don’t jump off the boat with a chip already on your shoulder about your new fellow countrymen who have welcomed you.
I can understand the need to apologise. Every press report I have seen or read in the last 24 hours (CNN, BBC World, Bangkok Post, The Nation, the Sydney Morning Herald) all report “South Korean Student …” or “Ethnic Korean …” so it seems the label will stick.
And yes, everyone who reads the news wonders where someone who commits a crime comes from so it is difficult to not report the nationality or ethnicity of a criminal, but as soon as this is done, there is always some guilt by association from some members of any population. So I can understand the caution of Kyopo and other Koreans, as well as feeling the need to apologise.
The important thing here is that there are thousands of lives affected by this, and affected directly. To those my sympathy goes.
Thanks michael. Keeping all the fantasy worlds separate is a chore.
“The only way Americans would even care about the Korean reaction would be if it were celebration and schadenfreude, both of which were prevelant in Korea after 9/11.”
Iheartblueballs,
That’s quite a loaded statement and an incendiary accusation. Celebration and schadenfreude were PREVALENT in Korea after 9/11? Really? I’d really like to see you back that kind of an ad hominem attack on an entire nation with some kind of tangible proof.
Look, maybe the way that many Koreans think about certain issues seems puzzling or absurd according to your own worldview, but have you ever considered that Koreans might find your particular worldview puzzling as well? Just step back, distance yourself, and be as critical as the Western paradigm of thinking as you certain seem to be of the Korean paradigm.
the oprah winfrey show had a special about the la riots. on one side, she had blacks, and on the other side, she had koreans. she didn’t have any latinos nor did she have any whites. the la riots were used by black folk in the ghetto to vent their anger and racism towards koreans in the form of a match and brick. that’s just the fact of the matter.
koreans are to right to be on the alert. so far, however, i see no backlash. in fact, if you want to see racists, take a look at some of the spanish coverage. they all call him a south korean and today, they showed schools that the shooter attended- in south korea!
i’ll tell you what, i get tired of hearing blacks and latinos complain about white people and then turn around and do the same frickin’ thing. man!
we can’t ever learn, can we?
pawikirogi,
Part of the issue with many blacks is the fact that Koreans work hard and make their own way in America. They don’t ask or expect entitlements. A bitter pill for them to swallow.
“There is no CAUSATION between watching violent movies and committing violect acts. But there is a CORRELATION. So I imagine there will be endlessdebates as to how much the violence in the media contributes to violent crimes.”
Actually, the correlation is pretty weak. I can watch all the violent movies I want, it wouldn’t change the fact that I can differentiate between right and wrong. This guy, on the other hand, was nuts. Did the movie making him do it? Not really. If it wasn’t movies, it would have been something else. There have been homicidal maniac for thousands of years, you know.
[DELETED for one or more of the following reasons:
(1) off topic
(2) personal attack
(3) used inappropriate language or tone
(4) ongoing personal conflict
(5) took issue with commenter (qualifications, etc) instead of actual comment content
(6) quotes rumor in a manner that is inflammatory (regarding race, etc)
(7) was reaction to any of the above
NOTE:
(A) Repeatedly responding (6) to inappropriate comments is no less grounds for banning.
(b) We're sorry if a few comments are being deleted on accident as we attempt to weed out a recent series of inappropriate comments. Our intention is to err on the side of leniency, as comments that are borderline should not hurt the comment section atmosphere if they are responded to in a deliberately appropriate manner. However, one way to avoid having a well-intended comment be deleted in the course of a cleanup action is to consciously make sure it does not push the limits of what can be seen as appropriate.
(C) Take into account that some comments deemed appropriate may address comments deleted for inappropriate language.
(D) Responses to this moderation action are off topic if made in this comment section.]
cm asked:
“Sonagi, can you summarize for me, the general mood out there in the Korea related Japanese internet world? I’ve not been to occidentalism yet, but I can imagine what it will be like.”
I’m afraid I cannot. I do not read Occidentalism and I have not bothered to check 2ch in detail. I simply noticed, after watching the Youtube clip, that there were several others like it. In the past, I have come across other negative content, mostly videos about dog eating or linking anti-Americanism and anti-Japanism.
bluetranslator wrote:
“That’s quite a loaded statement and an incendiary accusation. Celebration and schadenfreude were PREVALENT in Korea after 9/11? Really? I’d really like to see you back that kind of an ad hominem attack on an entire nation with some kind of tangible proof.”
I did not witness any street parades, but I did observe a lot of schadenfreude, not directly to my face, of course. There was lots of admiration for Bin Laden, feelings that America had it coming, and genuine sympathy only for ethnic Korean victims. I am basing this assessment on conversations overheard in public and on internet chatter. The Chosun Ilbo was concerned enough about Korean reactions to print an editorial a few days after, To Those Who Beautify Terrorism.
Thomo the Lost wrote:
“Every press report I have seen or read in the last 24 hours (CNN, BBC World, Bangkok Post, The Nation, the Sydney Morning Herald) all report “South Korean Student …” or “Ethnic Korean …” so it seems the label will stick. “
Once the killer was identified, then news headlines profiling him did mention his South Korean nationality, but most headlines about the event in US papers have NOT cited his nationality. To put it simply, the US media is not screaming that a South Korean was the murderer.
A moment of hearsay…Someone(a waygook) may be posting pictures of Koreans celebrating getting the Asian games and saying they are celebrating the shooting.The pic is on Daum.Anybody heard this yet?
http://pds11.cafe.daum.net/ima.....4de6c40629
This is by best effort to post the pic as a link.I’m not so savvy with these things.
It is not just Korean Americans who are concerned about a possible backlash. From the Japanese American Citizens League:
http://www.jacl.org/Virginia_Tech.pdf
user-81,
Indeed ALL Asians felt that way. Many non-Asians, unfortunately, have given plenty of substance for such anxieties, in the form of slurs, random cursing, and vandalism. Thanks for posting that, and I’ll add a snippet from an article touching on the Vietnamese-American response:
Anyway, just to bring some focus in again: This Cho guy killed 3 2 people. Killing one person is horrible enough but he killed 32 and injured so many more. It’s a heartbreaking tragedy that is hurtful in many, many ways. I’ll also note that many people who died were of various ethnicities, everything from Black American to Indonesian….
National apologies from politicians doesn’t seem like a bad idea.
Fine, apologize if you must. But make it sincere. The motivation for those I’ve seen strike me as the cover-Korea’s-ass ilk. And, of course, the habitual “we be victims, too.” Sincere they’re not.
Since Koreans so often demand action in addition to the apologetic words, what action(s) ought to be performed to prove Korea’s sincerity?
@ Bluetranslator #186
If you want to look into the more unsavory aspects of the Korean reaction to 9/11 just take a look at USinKorea’s compilation at http://www.geocities.com/korea911memory/ So unlike the totally unsubstantiated accusations of anti-Korean hate spewing forth from whitey in America, Blueball’s ‘incendiery’ accusations are grounded in fact.
Do any of you know what happened in Wisconsin about two years ago? A Hmong American man killed 6 people who were out hunting. The Hmong reaction to this? Fear of backlash- discrimination and the like. What happened? Nothing major, as far as I’ve read, although very sadly the Hmong community relate that they were not allowed in some restaurants, things like that. But there is one exception: A Hmong man who was out hunting was killed (very visciously) by another hunter. The reason? “Hmongs are bad people”, said the killer. This event occurs about two years later from the other shooting. But it demonstrates that, indeed, the natural react