MARMOT’S NOTE: Just in case I haven’t made this perfectly clear—and I believe I have down below, but just in case—the fact that the shooter is Korean is, ultimately, irrelevant. He was a sick kid. Period. You can talk try to read into this tragedy cultural factors all you like (and I’m afraid that’s going to happen both in the United States and here in Korea), but the fact remains that there are 100,000 Korean students in the United States, not to mention about 1 million Korean-Americans, many of whom share the same cultural background as the shooter, and NONE of them have shot up their schools. The overwhelming majority, in fact, are upstanding members of their academic and residential communities. Cho Seung-hui is about as representative of the Korean community as the Columbine shooters were of the white community, that is to say, he’s not. In fact, if there is any group that seems “predisposed” to this sort of violence in the United States, it’s not foreign Asian students, it’s white males.
ORIGINAL POST: I don’t want to spread unconfirmed rumors, but seeing how the government is doing the leaking now, you might as well read it here—NoCut News, citing a diplomatic source, is reporting that the Korean embassy in Washington has told the Foreign Ministry that the shooter at Virginia Tech was a Korean student [NoCut News, Korean], and that it has asked the ministry to provide more details about him.
I’d prefer to wait until an official announcement before deciding to believe it or not.
UPDATE: Now the WaPo is saying federal and local officials are saying the shooter was “of Korean descent.”
UPDATE 2: The NYT is now reporting a name—Cho Seung-hui.
UPDATE 3: Now this from ABC (BTW, thanks to the commenters):
Seung Hui Cho, a permanent resident of the United States, a Korean national and a Virginia Tech student has been identified as the gunman in the shootings that left 33 people dead on the Virginia Tech campus Monday, ABC News has learned.
The student left a “disturbing note” before killing two people in a dorm room, returning to his own room to re-arm and entering a classroom building on the other side of campus to continue his rampage, sources said.
And this just in—Yonhap (Korean) is reporting that the shooter was Cho Seung-hui, a 23-year-old student of Korean ethnicity in the English lit department.
UPDATE 4: NoCut News is reporting that Korean students in the United States—and there are a lot of them [NACAC]—are in shock [NoCut News, Korean] after learning that the perpetrator of the worst school shooting in U.S. history was a Korean. Naturally enough, they are also worried about the repercussions this might have on them. At Virginia Tech alone, there are 160 Korean grad students and some 300 undergrads.
Korean authorities, meanwhile, are worried that the incident might cause diplomatic problems with the United States, and are concerned for the security of Koreans in the United States. In particular, NoCut News reports, Korean diplomatic authorities are worried that the incident will not only throw cold water on recently improving relations with Washington since the signing of the KORUS FTA, but also damage the international image of Koreans.
UPDATE 5: This, from the Metropolitician:
I’d been waiting for it.
The shooter is South Korean.
I’d been suspecting it all day, for a lot of reasons, which is why I was sitting by the computer. Not the least of which was because a group of American university administrators whom Fulbright hosted nearly 10 years ago, when being a tour of Korean universities, asked the staff, “Why is it that out of all our international students, Korean males have so much trouble?”
To my surprise, all of the university officials cited incident after incident of Korean male graduate students who seemed to have trouble adjusting, often got into fights with other students in the living spaces, and were often the source of trouble in dealing with romantic relationships gone bad or women in general, especially when they involved Korean females dating non-Koreans.
Anyway, my little bit of uninformed analysis will be just the beginning. I’m sure we’ll see all sorts of explanations from the Korean media. And for what it’s worth, perhaps now the South Korean media and people will be faced with the question of stereotyping, media, and how treating individual incidents as evidence of various “national characters” leads down roads we don’t want to travel.
All in all, a tragic story. But the conversation will prove…interesting, I’m sure.
Let the shitstorm – and social experiment – begin.
UPDATE 6: Cho had been living in the United States since the age of 3 [IHT]. He was a permanent resident, but still a Korean citizen.
UPDATE 7: I should also point out that at least one of the injured was a Korean [Marmot's Hole], and Yonhap (Korean) is reporting that one of the dead might be a Korean (or at least ethnic Korean) as well.
I hate to go into motives, but since Michael alluded to the problem above, and other commenters [Foreign Dispatches] are already touching the theme, I should point out—before we go to far with the “Angry Korean Man pissed off that his Korean girlfriend was banging whity” meme—that the girl killed in the dorm (whom, I’ve been led to believe from reports, was the girlfriend he quarreled with) had a very non-Asian name. I’m going to wait before I start proposing any theories as to why what happened happened. Until I see proof otherwise, I’m going to avoid explaining this tragedy culturally. He could have very well simply been a fucked-up kid with a gun. Can’t get any more American than that.
UPDATE 8: Again, to demonstrate my point above [This is London]. Of course, the relationships have yet to be confirmed.
UPDATE 9: Cho is being described as a loner [Yonhap, Korean]—his seeming lack of friends is making it difficult for investigators to ascertain his motive. A Virginia Tech spokesman described him as “a loner,” and Korean students at the school say he hardly came to Korean student gatherings. In fact, they say they didn’t really know who he was.
UPDATE 10: The Chosun Ilbo (Korean) reports on the “netizen response,” or at least how it sees it. The general tone is disbelief. One netizen quoted by the paper said, “The name is similar to a Chinese one, so let’s wait until the final police announcement. Another said, “I’m so surprised that a Korean could do something so cruel I don’t believe it… I wonder if the investigation results are mistaken, so we have to keep watching.”
Korean netizens in the United States, meanwhile, are concerned that this may adversely affect Korean students in the country. One even said he was afraid to go to school tomorrow. Another said that just as all Middle Easterners were disadvantaged after Sept 11, the image of Koreans would take a massive hit as a result of the incident. One netizens said he feared for the safety of Koreans studying in the United States, and expressed concern about the possibility of a U.S. boycott of Korean goods.
Netizens preparing to study in the United States were also concerned. One wrote that visa requirements for students would grow even stricter, while another worried that the incident would affect Korea’s efforts to get into the U.S. visa waiver program.
UPDATE 11: NoCut News (Korean) is a bit, well, saddened by the headlines of much of the world press. Not that it’s complaining—it’s more ashamed if anything. The Korean press shouldn’t expect a ton of sympathy on this issue, however—we needn’t go back and look at the headlines Korean papers have run each and every time a foreigner f*cks up in this country.
UPDATE 12: Yonhap News (Korean) talks about the inability of many Koreans who immigrate abroad to study at a young age to adjust due to linguistic and cultural differences. According to one Korean who spent his middle and high school years abroad, they receive a lot of stress in overcoming the language barrier so they don’t fall behind in school, and some of them end up fighting a lot and doing drugs. Meanwhile, of those busted in Korea for smuggling and using drugs, Koreans who studied at U.S. universities and Korean-American university students are overrepresented vis-a-vis Korean university students. Others point out, however, that one shouldn’t generalize. Jo Yeong-dal, the dean of Seoul National University Law School, said shooter Cho had been in the United States since the second grade, i.e., he spent his developmental years and socialization years in the country, and that he might have had family problems. He added, however, that despite it being a multicultural society, the United States is still primarily a white society, and Cho might have had an inferiority complex that manifested itself in a hate for white people. Korea should learn a lesson from this, he said, and begin preparing for its transformation into a multicultural society.
Marmot’s Note: Like I said, until I see something different, I don’t want to make this a cultural/social issue. There are 100,000 Koreans studying in the United States, and except for Cho, none of them—as far as I know—have shot up their schools.
UPDATE 13: The Chicago Tribune talks a little bit about the note Cho left behind:
The suspected gunman in the Virginia Tech shooting rampage, Cho Seung-Hui, was a troubled 23-year-old senior from South Korea who investigators believe left an invective-filled note in his dorm room, sources say.
The note included a rambling list of grievances, according to sources. They said Cho also died with the words “Ismail Ax” in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.
Cho had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women.
A note believed to have been written by Cho was found in his dorm room that railed against “rich kids,” “debauchery” and “deceitful charlatans” on campus.
We’ll no doubt learn more in the coming days.
UPDATE 14: Over at Salon, Andrew Leonard posts some excellent advice:
Another fact provided by the Marmot’s Hole (Hey, that’s me!): According to one report, Korea has more students studying abroad in the U.S. than any other country: 100,000. Debbie Schlussel thinks that the foreign residency of Cho Seung-hui is “yet another reason to stop letting in so many foreign students.” But 99.999 percent of those 100,000 Koreans somehow managed not to engage in mass killing sprees. My advice to the Korean blogosphere — despite all the cultural hypothesizing that is about to swarm the mediasphere — is to strive to stay calm. Jealous rage knows no borders.
As I note in his comment section, however, the cultural hypothesizing won’t be limited to the United States, unfortunately—there will be plenty of that going on over here, too, both in the self-critical way (i.e., the stress on young children sent abroad to study at a young age) and in a not-so-self-critical way (i.e., See, another Korean corrupted by the evil ways of the West and/or White racism made him do it).
UPDATE 15: As you’d might expect, Michael has a monster post up at Metropolitician. Go read it.
UPDATE 16: Korean President Roh Moo-hyun and Foreign Minister Song Min-soon have offered their condolences to the American people.
UPDATE 17: YTN (Korean) reports that one of the dead, a female university student, was half-Korean and born in Korea. Condolences to her family and to all the families who lost loved ones in yesterday’s tragedy.
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Oh man, if this is true, the Japanese netizen reaction is going to be wild.
korean embassy is seoul?
Cho Seung-hui, says the NYT.
Cho Seung-hui, says the NYT:
thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/virginia-tech-shootings-the-day-after
New York Times has his name as Seung-Hui Cho, according to federal law enforcement authorities.
Sorry, bad link. here.
There is some irony in that, if true. I’m sure we’ll see some sites comparing the number of GIs who’ve killed Koreans, and now Koreans who’ve killed Americans.
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MSNBC scroll says shooter was “23 year old Korean, permanent legal resident”. VA Tech University press conference starting now.
“Seung Hui Cho, a permanent resident of the United States, a Korean national and a Virginia Tech student has been identified as the gunman in the shootings that left 33 people dead…”
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048108
I can see the Korean and Japanese blogsphere lighting up.
confirmed.
Yes, I’m afraid this could get ugly. It must be like an early Christmas at 2ch.
Thankfully, no commenter at the NYT has made reference to the killer’s nationality, but if the Yahoo boards were still up, there’d be a slurfest.
I think my last post got eaten…
I am a little happy at how at least the patches of the expat K-blogsphere I woddle into haven’t gone the way mud-slinging fighting fire-with-fire by taking the opportunity of this tragedy to strike back after so many barrages of GI taxi cab stories year-to-year.
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I wish to point out that the killer’s background, nationality and area of study break every stereotype and expectation in the book for this kind of crime.
The “script” of a disgruntled and anti-social American engineering student raised and twisted in a US culture of guns and violence was, I’m sure, in the minds of many, with policy recommendations to follow.
I can only hope that the actual facts don’t cause an anti-immigration “script” — or worse –to be substituted.
It’s another mass killing in the U.S., another tragedy, no matter who the gunman was.
It breaks no stereotype at all.
Please have the decency not to make excuses at this time.
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This is what happens when you send decent Koreans to America and have them infected by American society and culture. Maybe the practice of sending students by the planeload to America to study needs to be rethought.
I’m sure the above (the first sentence, at least) will soon appear in the Korean media.
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Having been in the military, I probably like shooting rifles more than the average person, but I can say that I’m incredibly happy after hearing the identity of the gunman that South Korea has strict gun control laws. Thanks to them, nothing like this has happened here since that cop went on a rampage in the early 80’s (was it 99 victims?)…and I hope it stays that way. There are far too many suicidal people here to allow any of them to have guns in their hands. It’s dangerous enough as it is that many of them jump off rooftops.
#21: You beat me to it. What’s the over-under on when the local press starts blaming this on America? Tomorrow’s edition?
bulgasari – you have got to be kidding me, right?!
I am surprised the fight-or-flight instinct didn’t kick in and someone rush the shooter and instantly trigger a few more to rush him too.
I am surprised he wasn’t stopped fairly early on since he was a lone gunman with 2 handguns.
It isn’t easy to hit moving targets or targets of any real distance with a handgun unless you are practiced at it, but even then, being rushed by 2 or more people probably would have ended this shooting much earlier. I can understand how individuals were frozen in place or obeyed his commands or whatnot. That is human instinct too, but I would have expected some of the males to have said, “Screw it” and gone for him instinctively when he started shooting people execution style and kept on firing….
Whoever did this – and let’s leave out his nationality and race – must have been a very depressed and crazy man…
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Well, I certainly doubt we will see in America the kind of angry mania and mass demonstrations that South Korea after American soldiers *accidentally* ran over Korean schoolgirls. And I also guess Xinhua is going to move the story off of the bottom of its page (”no Chinese killed”) to the top.
Out of a sense of decency to those who have suffered from this tragedy as well as those who have to live with it, I would request that the posters on this board keep their schadenfreude and the speculation to a minimum if at all possible.
And while Metropolitician has already gone a limb to attribute motives, specifically “Korean females dating non-Koreans”, I would prefer to be more circumspect and let cooler heads prevail.
This is a flat out tragedy regardless of what your race or nationality is.
Any bets on how KCNA will bend this? I’ll bet they run it… somehow.
A beautiful young woman of South Asian descent and a black 4.0 student and marching band member with charisma that made him famous campus-wide were among the earliest victims identified. Some 20% of VT students are of Asian decsent or nationality, according to one tally I saw.
Author Fox Butterfield (exNYT) is on NPR now saying his recent work on profiles of mass killers debunked the notion of any one profile. He said the stereotype is of a middle-aged white loner, but that past killers have also been young, black, female and Asian-American.
This story requires a calm focus on just the facts and the utmost of media professionalism, which, to me, unfortunately means it may be too sensitive for most ROK outlets to handle.
I also worry about the usual suspects here, whose names or initials almost always mark the place where rational debates go to die.
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Anybody remember the string of copycat slaughters in fast food restaurants in the 1980s?
Anybody remember where the phrase “going postal” came from?
Saddly, these kinds of things happen enough in American society that the person’s nationality won’t come into play much.
And from a different angle, looking back at how the bloodbath on Arab-looking individuals didn’t happen after 9/11 like I fully expected, i don’t think Koreans have to worry much in the US.
#31: Typo
my mistake (lazy fingers):
…gone out on a limb…
In response to #27, if he was the typical loner Korean, he would have played enough videogames to know to keep his distance, keep his targets within his field of vision, and maintain situational awareness to prevent the blindside attack. Any tactial shooter (CS, GRAW, RB6, AA) teaches you to instinctively do these things. The only thing for the students to do was barricade or run.
#34: Typo
athical: ethical
(lazy fingers and Baron du Val wine)
There is a profile, Slim: mass killers are all whacked in the head.
USinKorea wrote:
“I am surprised the fight-or-flight instinct didn’t kick in and someone rush the shooter and instantly trigger a few more to rush him too.”
Honestly, I don’t think I would have had the courage to rush the shooter. Nearly every victim had multiple bullet wounds. If four people had charged him, the first three would have fallen. 30 people were shot in that lecture hall anyway, but I can understand why everyone cowered behind desks as the gunman was shooting. At least they had the sense and courage to hold the door shut when the killer returned.
At my school, there are codes and procedures in place for different types of emergencies, including communication methods and duties for staff. I wonder if clear emergency procedures were in place at Virginia Tech, if the staff and students are aware of procedures, and if there are regular drills.
If you are not a practiced shot with a real handgun, you aren’t going to take out 3 or 4 people rushing at you. Hitting targets with a pistol is not as easy as it looks. Once you go a few yards away from the target, unless you have had training and practice, you’ll miss even a stationary target.
Moving targets coming at him with all the adrenline pumping through his body, he wouldn’t have stood a chance of hitting 1 perhaps 2 people before the others got to him.
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“I don’t think I would have had the courage to rush the shooter.”
I’m talking about the fight-or-flight instinct. It is an animal instinct and not really about courage or cowardice.
I would think with that many people around, and the guy firing and firing, and especially if he did order some people to stand against the wall and then shot them — there would have been a high enough percentage of “fighters” among the “flighters” to stop the guy…
Cho’s photo released;
http://www.dprkstudies.org/
The girlfriend was white.
#35 — I can’t forget though that one or two Sikhs were gunned down in the wake of 9/11.
The only thing I want to add is let’s not turn this tragedy into a session of finger pointing, stereotyping, racial remarks, and we are not to blame crap.
This applies to both Koreans and non-Koreans.
It is a sad time for America and Korea. How many kyopo students were shot?
#47 — I was so worried about how many revenge killings and attacks were going to take place, I emailed 3 or 4 Muslim organizations immediately after the 9/11 attacks expressing my hopes things would settle down.
How come when everyone thought that the perp was Chinese from Shanghai that no one was calling for no finger pointing, but now it is revealed that it was a South Korean that did it we have two people from the same country as the perp warning us not to point fingers? There has not even been any finger pointing on this thread. I think these folk are a little trigger happy with their warnings!
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News accounts say that survivors never heard him say a single word.
Two pistols, one a Glock 9mm, one a Walther 22 caliber. Not sure of the magazine capacity of either but I suspect double digits for each (for reference, standard US 45 is/was a 7 round magazine).
Some accounts say that at least one point he was firing both weapons, one from either hand. If he kept one with some rounds still loaded while he loaded the other, it would have been very tough to rush him with an instant “pick-up” team of guys who don’t normally work together.
Evidently he was carrying plenty of additional ammo, sounds like it was pre-loaded in magazines. You can slam in a fresh pre-loaded magazine in an instant, just like in the movies; I think successful “rushes” of previous shooters in similar incidents usually occurred during a “stoppage” (jam), or the weapon had to be reloaded one round at a time; more likely to have the shooter start fumbling when this happens and watching potential victims will immediately be able to “nerve” themselves to try a rush.
CNN is interviewing one young guy who went out into the hallway, saw the shooter emerging from a classroom down the hallway and headed his way. He ducked back into the classroom and started to hide but realized that wouldn’t do any good, so he and a couple of other guys grabbed a heavy table or desk near the door and used it to block the door.
Held the door handle to keep him from opening it, but stayed off to the side so when the shooter fired through the door to stop them from blocking it, they weren’t hit. From the other side of the door, they heard him drop a magazine out of a weapon and then slap in another one.
Shooter gave up and went on to his next target. I’d say the actions of these young guys were probably the best that could be done under the circumstances.
As far as unprepared civilians being able to suddenly coordinate a “rush” against a fast-moving opponent who suddenly appears, I think you’re underestimating the shock factor of the totally unexpected.
If the US is a mature society, the fact that this dude was Korean shouldn’t really matter.
So, it turned out he’s Korean.
One of those Koreans, dogbertt hates.
What and why was this dude a Green card holder still with ROK citizenship when he’s been in the states since a elementary school kid?
Just using the US for personal benefits, is what I say. Either that, or he had personal real estate in ROK or something.
Dude deserves all the worst possible that comes at him, post mortum.
Congradulations, shaku, party and rock on. This is your day. Your glorious day. He’s a kyopo, he’s hated, why he’s your favorite. Burn him in effigay. Go vandalize your favorite Korean restaurant.
Something like this should never, ever happen again, anywhere.
Fox reports one of the victims killed was a “Henry Lee.”
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It’s terrible time to be Korean abroad right now.
I had co-workers marching into my office and letting me graciously know the maniac was a Korean and probably asking for a some kind of explanation. To that I said, “Really? That was a terrible incident, at least one good thing he blew his brains out”. In the corners of the offices, I hear whispers of “immigrants that come here and don’t integrate, ruining everything”.
cm—I’m sorry to hear that. You shouldn’t have to put up with that shit.
The whole thing sickens me. I am only left wondering how the Korean press will report it. As I was sitting here in the PC room I was showing one of the young employees here how much stuff that tends to portray Korea in a negative light never makes it to the Korean press, and, if it does, it is relegated to a fourth or fivth page and heavily glossed over.
I don’t think this incident is a reflection on Korea itself – the actions of one tormented psycho – but I think the Korean press and government’s actions and how they handle this horrible incident will and should be a reflection.
for what its worth (not much) but we know that there will be no anti Korean reaction in the US.
Contrast that with the depraved hate orgy that followed the accidental killings of Mee-su and Hyo-Sun.
I know Koreans will be rather concerned about this guy because of the possible reaciton in the US they perceive. They are projecting their reaction were the same to happen here (say, if a deranged English teacher were to drop a gasoline bomb on a crowded Daegu subway killing 144 people etc…)
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It is a tragedy. If Cho stayed in Korea, he would have well-adjusted into Korean society.
His parents decide to go to America. If they have gone to a big city like NY or LA, he would have been OK.
However, he had grown up in a small town in virginia. He suffered much racism. He was judged to be less than his peers.
He became very anti-social. He hated everyone. He got to know a white girl. This was, he thought, a chance to become a full American.
When she dumped him, he became so angry. He hated her, the university and USA.
He shot everyone.
P.S. American gun law and society need changing. As usinkorea pointed out, Cho must have had lots of practice in shooting people. Where did he get such practice? Video games? Maybe not. In small town USA, young people play with guns. It is so easy to get guns. Actually, it is encouraged to have gun and learn to shoot.
Why is a hand gun sold to young people? I can think of no reason why people under 30 be allowed to own a hand gun?
America has a problem with guns.
Again, I’m talking about the fight-or-flight instinct, not some coordination or something that is even conscious thought. Yes, I can picture the shock freezing people. I can picture it getting people to do what the guy said if he told them to stand against the wall. But, human instinct when cornered is also to fight, and I’m suprised given the number of people around, and how long the shootings went on, the “fight” instinct didn’t kick in way in which he was rushed by a few people at some point.
As for the stuff about the guns, that is part of my thinking too.
Unless he was trained and practiced, hitting targets with a pistol isn’t as easy as people think.
And they specifically train you not to use one hand when shooting at targets because it makes you even more inaccurate – even at close distances.
Reloading magazines is also going to be an issue if you are acting Joe Hollywood blazing with a gun in each hand.
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Captbbq & JK, refer to my first post (#30).
cm – and this is happening to you in Canada?
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They have already reacted.
Part of their response is to hint that he is more American than Korean by pointing out that he has been in the US since 1992.
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Good point Shakuhachi….you are indeed correct that they are trying to quickly point out that he is more American than Korean…..unlike Hines….who, after doing something that Korea could capitalize upon, quickly was lauded for being Korean
I am not of partial Japanese descent, not a single drop. Please do not spread any more lies with that forked tongue of yours.
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Shakuhachi has a point. I had to wonder why the first Korean headline I saw called him a kyopo. But those are apparently the facts.
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“cm – and this is happening to you in Canada?”
It’s a big news here with this story splashed all over the papers. Is that a surprise? I don’t think the backlash will be against Koreans (minus some minor aggrevations), it will be more towards immigration issues.
Xinhua just sent this story from very bottom to the top of their page.
#61:
At least not collectively or en masse — that’s not the American way. But I guarantee you, there will be a backlash and a concomitant increase in the following:
Increased anti-immigrant sentiment;
1) Increased anti-Asian sentiment;
2) Increased discrimination against Asians;
3) Increased hate crimes against Asians;
4) Increased denial of service against Asians;
5) Increased civil rights violations against Asians;
6) Increased racial tension between Asians and other races;
7) Increased crime against Asians;
9) Increased white ethnocenticism;
10) Increased racial polarization in American society.
There will be repercussions, not just toward Koreans, KAs, but any Asian or Asian American wishing to make a go of it in the U.S.
robert neff,
I am just describing difficulties faced by Asians in smalltown, USA because they look different. It is more severe for Orientals. Much more so than Hispanics and Blacks. Being a super-small minority has its sting as many of you ex-pats in Korea will attest to.
Sonagi,
I am glad that you are doing something about it. If Cho had met many good and kind Americans who had taken time to talk to him and prop up his self-esteem, this would not have happened.
#63 –
Hold your horses there. Fairfax County, where Mr. Cho grew up, is emphatically not a small town. Rather, it is an extremely affluent, extremely diverse suburb of Washington, DC. In fact, it has a significant Korean community, as evidenced by the presence of an ethnic Korean Catholic parish there.
Also, as a wealthy suburban area—hence fairly densely populated—with a generally liberal political bent, Fairfax County is not the kind of place where young people play with guns.
Such baseless assumptions and generalizations are entirely unhelpful, baduk. In this case, they couldn’t be much further off the mark.
ban ki moon referred to it as a “tragic accident.”
Ut videam,
OK, maybe I am wrong. Maybe Cho had some family history of madness.
However, I do think he had a very low self-esteem. Shooting at everyone? He must hated everyone in USA. Why he got to be that way?
It must something to do with his environment and his upbringing.
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@H.Kim #78,
You implore fellow commenters not to indulge in schadenfreude, and then spew a long list of presumptions about how Americans will react. I look forward to seeing you prove your predictions right with objective data, like news reports of revenge attacks and such.
@Baduk #79,
It isn’t me. It’s the community. The people of my community are very tolerant and welcoming to newcomers no matter where they’re from.
@Ut videam #80,
Glad you caught that error. The Fairfax County town of Centreville, where Cho grew up, is diverse with a large and growing Asian population. In fact, I do my shopping at Korean-owned Grand Mart supermarket right smack in the middle of Centreville. In the Fairfax County school system, Koreans comprise the second largest ESL population after Salvadorans. Baduk is wrong. Cho did not grow up as an isolated minority.
Thanks Ut Videam for your insight… I have nothing against you Baduk but I found your comments extremely offensive. Perhaps you should have taken the cue of the Marmot and refrained from spewing unsubstantuated rumors or personal beliefs.
I don’t condone racism or other …isms of the same ilk, but it is true in all countries and all cities…that there is some racism and prejudism…no different in Korea. In the past there was a strong regionalism that was prevalent in the society – thankfully this has eased.
Schools are notorious for their “in groups” and the ostracizing of those who do not fit into the “in group.” While it is wrong to mistreat people in this manner it does not justify taking a gun and shooting innocent people. Why are you trying to justify this?
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The shooter is indeed a US kyopo.
But yesterday he was Chinese.
Probably deduced from the earliest eyewitness accounts that described the killer as Chinese, since that is what all Asians are, for the most part, in America.
Today, they are making him to sound like an Korean international student, which he is not.
If the killer has been living in the US since the age of 3, then he is Korean-American, a kyopo.
robert neff,
I am not justifying the horrendous killing.
I just like to get into Cho’s head and understand why. Since I have similar background as his, I ventured my explaination.
Understanding this incident correctly will help us to prevent similar acts of violence. I am concentrating on
1) Why did he hate everyone?
2) What drove him to such madness?
3) What is his upbringing, environment, family, school life, religion?
4) How can we prevent this type acts?
5) Is it videogames or Korean family life or gun law that caused this tragedy?
The ROK Foreign Ministry statement on the Brisbane Times is AP coverage of the statement, not the statement itself. I don’t think one can fairly accuse the ministry of spinning it that way based on the juxtaposition chosen by the reporter. It looks like they wisely stuck to the known facts and offered sincere condolences.
I worry that Roh Moo-hyun or someone from the Uri Party might say something dumb or crass and possibly unintentionally revealing — but until that moment, we have baduk.
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As for gun laws – did anyone notice that the mayor of Nagasaki was shot a couple of hours ago? I think Japan has some pretty severe gun laws – as does Korea (thank God). This guy that killed his fellow student in Virginia evidently bought his guns in March….seems he has been stewing and planning this for quite some time….prepared to the end. Chains for the doors? A boyscout-like uniform and lots of ammo. sick
“It’s terrible time to be Korean abroad right now.
I had co-workers marching into my office and letting me graciously know the maniac was a Korean and probably asking for a some kind of explanation. To that I said, “Really? That was a terrible incident, at least one good thing he blew his brains out”. In the corners of the offices, I hear whispers of “immigrants that come here and don’t integrate, ruining everything”.”
Man, that sucks. Look on the bright side. Didn’t you say you’re the office manager? You now know who to pick if the company asks you to lay off a few workers.
“10) Increased racial polarization in American society.”
H. Kim, # 78:
You have been contributing to this racial polarisation (as I would spell it in British English) all the time by your racially-motivated insults. So do not shed any false tears…
The killer, however, was just a killer – there is no proof that he was a racist. Nor do I believe that any White, Black or Hispanic American who have their wits together will ascribe the killer’s crime to his race. But then, of course, in your view “Race Matters”…
#87 Netizen Kim wrote:
“Probably deduced from the earliest eyewitness accounts that described the killer as Chinese, since that is what all Asians are, for the most part, in America.”
The eyewitness accounts I read described the killer as “Asian,” not “Chinese.” It was preliminary news reports that erroneously identified the man as a Chinese national on a student visa. These news reports were probably based on leaks from law enforcement, who were trying to identify a man with no ID and no face.
Excuse me, but have I shown any enjoyment over this? I reiterate again — this whole thing is a tragedy for all those involved, as well as a national disgrace for this country and the U.S. And I hope you prove me wrong about a backlash — that would be only redeeming thing to come out of this if it happened.
I fully agree with Fantasy:
“The killer, however, was just a killer – there is no proof that he was a racist. Nor do I believe that any White, Black or Hispanic American who have their wits together will ascribe the killer’s crime to his race.”
#87-
Maybe to a small extent. But it was primarily due, I think, to early reports that the investigation was focusing on a 24 year old from Shanghai who was in the US on a student visa.
According to the ROK Foreign Ministry, he had been in the US since 1992, which would have made him 8 when he immigrated. His immigration status was Resident Alien, which means he held ROK citizenship.
Not that it really matters. He was a profoundly disturbed human person who committed a senseless act. Whether he was Korean or Korean-American is trivial. The leitmotif here is man’s inhumanity to man.
Cho moved to the US when he was three.
He grew up as a KoreanAmerican. He grew up in America! He watched American TV, attended American schools and lived in American surrounding.
And, he killed over 30 people in one day.
Why?
The reason is totally American. His “Americanness” drove him to do this violent act.
Obviously, his family life had severe problem. His parents must be pretty bad people to raise a son like him. I think his parents should be jailed for bringing this problem to the society.
I hold them responsible. Then, I hold American gun merchants responsible.
i mentioned it won’t be problem whether he was Korean or not, if America was a mature country.
Linking back to my white flight talk, which makes most of you uncomfortable, evidently, America is not that mature.
Cm’s North American colleagues talking about immigrants and integration, when cm’s the boss.
Asking for an explanation? What does cm have to do with it?
Remember when that dude in Japan grabbed a sword and slashed away at toddlers at a school? I heard this white lady, who was a PhD in the medical sciences ask another Japanese PhD in the medical sciences, what was going “with your country”.
That was like year 2000 or so. We East Asians don’t go around asking white people what’s going on with America when loner gunmen of Columbine shoot up people or ask black people what’s going on with America when Malvo snipes people in DC.
Double, double.
Standard.
Besides, what does my explanation or cm’s explanation accomplish anything?
Do they have the same balls to ask an Arab American what’s going on with Muslims when a US citizen terrorist is captured in the US by the FBI?
Or ask a Chinese US Citizen what’s going on with China when some Chinese scientist get caught red handed stealing military secrets?
Not as mature as you would like to believe.
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so far a lot of these mass killers were loners with guns.
You ought to be able to reference 5 people at least when you buy a gun. Not that I know anything about buying guns. You know, similar to a job screen.
In defense of the NRA, if there was a security guard on hand with a good shot, this guy didn’t get to kill 32, that’s for sure.
Actually, if Cho had made frequent trips to Korea, he would not have had such a low self-esteem.
Growing up in America, an Oriental can get “brainwashed” into believing Asians are inferior race. This happens to all minorities in America.
Things are getting better, though. Much better.
Finger prints were misidentified and that created confusion. It had nothing to do with witnesses not being able to tell Asians apart.
He is a South Korean national, not a Korean American. However, Kyopo also covers permanent resident Korean nationals. So he is a Kyopo but not a Korean American.
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As Baduk and WJK condemn American society for its inherent racism they turn to ridiculous armchair psychology and racial stereotyping. How appropriate.
[Comment deleted: obscenity and personal attacks]
wjk wrote:
“We East Asians don’t go around asking white people what’s going on with America when loner gunmen of Columbine shoot up people or ask black people what’s going on with America when Malvo snipes people in DC.”
I thought you were Korean-American. I can assure you that East Asians, specifically Koreans and Chinese, do ask us Americans “What’s up with your country?” when violent crimes in the US get coverage in the local press. The young Korean student shot by the gunman who killed 11? people in Illinois and Indiana a few years ago got days of press in South Korea, including photos of a weeping father.
Ut videam,
I was talking about Violence in America. Especially about Gun Worship.
Yes, hand guns are sold in “Gun Shows”. After Columbine, anti-gun laws are passed but I have heard in news shows that one can still just walk in and buy pistols in one of those gun shows.
Cho bought pistols.
This is a big problem in America. Am I suddenly become anti-American just because I point out this love of guns are just as American as apple pies?
Don’t shoot the messenger. American attitude toward guns have to change. There is something wrong with a society where one guy can walk into a public place shoot up thirty people.
And, nobody is doing anything about the real cause! Tighten the requirement for getting guns. Put inhibition mechanism for guns and ammo.
#99-
Actually… several of my students asked me exactly that sort of question on Tuesday. These aren’t kids, mind you, but engineers and managers at one of the country’s largest chaebol firms.
Wednesday’s classes ought to be interesting.
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Hey Baduk, how can you blame American society for this one, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wor.....107754.stm
American imperialism creating a sense of shame among Korean officers who then beat their subordinates who then kill their superiors in revenge? Sounds about as logical as your earlier bleating.
Lord knows these kind of things could never happen in a pure, uncorrupted Korean society. Gotta be those damn racist caucasoids in America.
#109:
That was Won-joon Yoon who was murdered by white supremacist Benjamin Nathaniel Smith back in 1999 on July 4th weekend. Smith also killed Northwestern University basketball coach Ricky Byrdsong during his spree. I was living in Chicago at the time and everyone was freaked out by his rampage through Rogers Park where he wounded several orthodox Jews and Skokie, where he killed Byrdsong.
Another pic;
http://www.680news.com/news/in.....t=w041745A
It sucks to hear about the shooting, it must be devastating for the families. It also sucks that the media is going to brand this guy as South Korean to the Nth degree. I can see it now…if he was an exchange student, they would probably blame it on extensive Sudden Attack game play…
There are psychos from every country. This one just so happened to be Korean.
I fully expect the Korean media to go into defense mode and after a week the media will twist this terrible event so that Korea and Koreans are not to blame. Not that they are to blame. Again there are psychos in every country. This was an act of one lone psycho and his nationality has little if anything to do with it. But they will put the blame on something else all the same.
During the 2002 schoolgirl accident, a half dozen U.S government officials apologized and Bush apologized twice and it still wasn’t “sincere” or good enough. What would be Korea’s standard in this case? How many times would Roh have to apologize? Luckily I think Americans are not as petty.
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#110-
Ah, you mean like Germany? France? Switzerland? Japan? Brazil? Australia? The United Kingdom? South Korea?
It can happen anywhere, baduk. Madness is endemic to the human condition.
What gets me is how the labeling of the killer is the most prevalent in all the stories. He was “South Korean”…the same as how some terrorists are all labeled “Islamic”…
Corpy Carly, Ut videam, and others,
OK. I admit Koreans do go berserk in military and society.
But, you must admit that American society’s lax attitude and over promotion of gun possession need correction. No other civilized society in Europe and Asia has this love of rugged individualism protected by self-arming.
Many Korean parents observe their children educated in America has more “affinity” toward guns and violence. American media is filled with violent images and killings. Monkey see, monkey do.
And, guns are so easy to get in America. $50 will buy you a nice pistol.
If you are mad, get even. Shoot those you hate. Cho did that.
#121 $50?!? Where? I need to get my ass down there before they sell out
What gets me is how the labeling of the killer is the most prevalent in all the stories. He was “South Korean”…
I have been watching FOX NEWS for nearly and hour. And I have heard the words “South Korea” only once, as they showed pics of his house and discussed his parents. Just ONCE!
I had a friend in college who went crazy. Very weird thing, to see someone you know slipping into schizophrenia. He even stabbed his shrink.
Point being, mental illness happens everywhere, and happens for a wide variety of reasons. Senseless to speculate the causes and details in this guy’s case, especially when so little is known about him.
I just heard from News that Cho wrote in his last note that ” he hates rich kids and debauchery”.
This brings in new dimension. Class Warfare.
I guess Cho was not one of those “rich kids”. He is lying to himself that he lost his girl because he was not rich enough.
This story has everything; love, jealousy, gun, killing, racism, low self-esteem, the rich and the poor, Korean experience in America, college, professors, heroism, etc..
#121-
More “affinity” than, say, the kids who spend their weekend in the PC rooms blasting away at Sudden Attack, Special Force, etc.? Please.
How about this? I’ll refrain from posting a laundry list of the faults I perceive in Korean culture, and you respect the memory of the fallen by refraining from using this tragedy to tell Americans what you think is wrong with ours.
Not to put too fine a point on it, shut the hell up already.
From the AP:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/s.....TE=DEFAULT
I just love the way the Metropolitician managed to use this tragic incident to work in some of the most irrelevant stuff imaginable, using the example of Korean international students, even the killer was NOT an Korean international student.
Metropolitican wrote:
I’d been waiting for it.
The shooter is South Korean.
I’d been suspecting it all day, for a lot of reasons, which is why I was sitting by the computer. Not the least of which was because a group of American university administrators whom Fulbright hosted nearly 10 years ago, when being a tour of Korean universities, asked the staff, “Why is it that out of all our international students, Korean males have so much trouble?”
To my surprise, all of the university officials cited incident after incident of Korean male graduate students who seemed to have trouble adjusting, often got into fights with other students in the living spaces, and were often the source of trouble in dealing with romantic relationships gone bad or women in general, especially when they involved Korean females dating non-Koreans.
Ut videam,
You seemed to be a nice man and suddenly you lose it when I point out this “gun problem” in America.
I guess you love your gun too.
Things don’t change until America first recognize it has a problem.
I repeat “in no other countries, a man can walk into a public place and gun down thirty people one at a time”.
No other.
If the murderer didn’t live in America but in Korea, he would have done the same thing in Korea, either shot up a military barrack or pour gasoline in a subway train. This kind of thing always happens in Korea. The only differences are that usually it’s not gun related in Korea. This terrible incident has nothing to do with American culture nor Korean culture (both sides of the fence who are saying one or the other are BS’ing). Reading the AP news, it sounds like he was a mentally disturbed individual but we don’t know for that sure. He may well been an angry person who wanted to get back at the world for his life that sucked.
Cho wore a vest filled with ammo. Even to shoot and kill thirty people. He must have had over 100 bullets.
For a country that requires doctor’s note to buy medicine, it does not take any permission for a civilian to buy as many bullets as he wants.
Cho could have bought over 1000 bullets to kill 1000 people.
Something got to be done about guns and ammo but America will not do anything. I can sense that from the responses I get from here.
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I too thought the Metropolitician was over the top and too quick on the draw with that kind of speculation. Some Korean ingredients of that portrait might be contained in the details that are emerging (of course not Cho’s educational timeline), but I look forward to an elaboration or a climbdown from the metro-man.
Ut videam,
I guess you are new and do not know that I am as American as you. So, don’t say “Korea has its other problems as bad as this”.
I am trying to prevent this type of tragedy.
News media is putting heavy blame on VT’s decision not to suspend the classes after the initial killing that occurred in the dorm.
Media is spinning it. The real cause is “guns and ammos”.
People get mad. They get mad at their girl friend. They get mad about their situation. Money, job, neighbors, etc. And, they want to vent their frustration.
They could just kick their dogs. Or, drive wild. Or, spit on the sidewalk.
But, in America, they go out shooting.
America must control its guns and bullets. How about national database of guns and bullets? How about tracking every bullet? It is possible. Why are pistols sold? Only gaming rifles should be sold.
The truth is Gun manufacturing is a big business. Just like Tobacco. And, organization like NRA is spreading lies.
How many more lives should be given to this “gun obssession” before things change?
“No other.”
That’s the smartest thing you’ve said since you nailed Hwang.
I hope some head starts to roll in the security dept. @7:00 AM two shot dead. Over two hours later, this mofo is still at large. He should have been mowed down way before. How could they be so complacent. Friggin mind boggling
And no, guns are fine. He could have gone to Home Depot and pulled Timothy McVeigh.
baduk,
What part of IT HAPPENS EVERYWHERE are you unable or unwilling to understand?
It’s utterly disgraceful, if unsurprising, that anyone would be so opportunistic as to employ a tragedy to advance a political agenda.
The fact that implementing such an agenda would not prevent such tragedies (witness the spree killings in other countries twice hitherto referenced) only adds an additional pathetic element to the cravenness.
Guns don’t kill people… but I might, if I had to listen to this drivel in person.
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Good points CM.
What a sad, awful tragedy! My heart goes out to the families and friends of those victims. Too bad Cho didn’t shoot himself first. May there be NO Mercy on his deranged soul.
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As bad as this tragedy is, perhaps something good will come of it in the sense that Koreans can no longer turn a blind eye to their own faults and misdeeds.
Every time a foreigner does something in this country its plastered all over the news but if a Korean does something its rarely, if ever reported.
Case in point the US Army doctor that was murdered in front of Yongsan by a Korean a few years ago and the female US Army soldier that was raped in Taegu last year in her apartment by a Korean. Neither story was covered in the Korean media. To say the stories were buried would not be an exaggeration.
I can’t see them burying this story although I can see them blaming US society for driving the poor misunderstood Korean lad to kill. Somehow they’ll find a way to blame it on the US Army or Japanese but at least they can’t ignore this one.
I’m looking forward to the candlelight vigils in Seoul and throughout Korea to mourn for the 33 victims.
netizen: “I’m so surprised that a Korean could do something so cruel I don’t believe it…”
Besides the obvious examples (Kim Il Sung and dear sonny boy):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woo_Bum-Kon
Record holder for the most deadly spree killing of all time.
News services report that Cho was taking anti-depressant medication and showed signed of mental illness.
He wrote in his suicide notes, “Ishmael acts”, which no one can understand.
Could this be like the Son of Sam? Satanic possession?
He locked the door behind him when he walked into the engineering building. He repeated reloaded his pistol, smiling. Totally mad, yet methodical.
Satanic possession.
1) Baduk #98:
“…The reason is totally American. His “Americanness” drove him to do this violent act.
Obviously, his family life had severe problem. His parents must be pretty bad people to raise a son like him. I think his parents should be jailed for bringing this problem to the society.
I hold them responsible…..”
2) CNN just interviewed the Caucasian-looking US mailman for Cho family. He said he had been mailman for Cho family since they moved into their current home in Centreville.
He said he didn’t see the parents much as they were gone all the time, evidently they both worked (another report (FOX news?) says they own a dry cleaning business in Centreville).
When he did see them, his impression was favorable, as they were always smiling and polite. The mailman then had to pause for a moment, as he got choked up; then he said “No parent should have to go through this”.
Should we take this mailman’s reaction as typical of white Americans, while we take yours as typical of Koreans and Korean-Americans, Baduk?
Baduk, I recommend you just cease-fire for a while. Let your comment gun barrel cool down; your mouth is overloading your ass.
Yes, the shooter was just a nut who happened to be Korean, but that does not change the fact that Koreans tend to be hypocrites in regard to tragedies like this.
Did anyone see the cartoon in Seoul Shinmun?
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=594
Paul H.,
I value your opinion and stop writing for a while.
1) Unless Cho had mental illness, I still hold his parents responsible. Maybe they were too busy to love their son.
2) American society must control its “guns and ammos”. Columbine was bad. And, now this..How do you stop it? Nothing can stop it? I believe a government must act when it sees problems. Actually, it should be pro-active. However, if a government does nothing even in the face of Columbine and this, then it is still not recognizing it has a problem.
3) I will vote for those politicians who speak for gun control. This is bigger than Iraq. This hits where I live. My children can be killed by another mad man with 100 bullets on the campus. Am I pushing for a political agenda? Yes, I am.
‘I think Japan has some pretty severe gun laws – as does Korea (thank God).’ neff
koreans been coming here in large numbers since the 70s. took almost 40 years for some american guy of korean ancestry to do what he did. i know you don’t like innuendo but see if you can understand my implication as i understood yours.
‘I fully expect the Korean media to go into defense mode and after a week the media will twist this terrible event so that Korea and Koreans are not to blame. Not that they are to blame….’
then, why would they have to twist anything? man, think before you write!
lastly, how many white folk breathed a sigh of relief that the killer wasn’t yet again one of them? how many on this board are gleeful the perp is an american of korean ancestry? sad…..
slim, how about not reading my comments?
I think you’re my biggest fan.
You read everything I write.
Really? I’m talking nonsense?
Did people storm the Idaho Neo Nazi compounds and harass them when Timothy Buford got caught after shooting automatic rifles at Jewish children in southern California?
No.
Did a white guy in Arizona drive up to a Shikh, and gun him down with a rifle, right after 911?
Yes. The dumbass couldn’t even tell the difference between a Shikh and Muslim’s headdress. All that mattered to him was darker complexion and a turban. Typical for the white American.
Why were Korean mom and pop shops in New York and Los Angeles suddenly having a display of American flags at the registered post 911? As dumb as it sounds, it lowers the hostility down from white Americans.
It’s so elementary, childish, obvious, and ridiculous.
Shaku, take that photo down. Mr. Chiang has nothing to do with it. Why should people even know who he is?
Mr. Chiang got death threats.
Did you see a fat white guy from Idaho, who owned guns get similar threats in Idaho?
Did the KKK leader of the US get any death threats for that matter after Buford’s rampage against Jewish children?
Not that I know of.
I guaranttee you that Mr. Chiang was targeted because he’s not white.
I’m not talking nonsense. Suburbia vs Inner Cities. True in all 50 states. Can’t hide it. America’s Shame.
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Baduk,
Criminals will always have firearms. If one makes it where regular citizens can’t have them, only criminals – and police; who can’t be everywhere – will have them.
If VA had not passed on a bill to allow concealed weapons (via permit) on campus, this might not have happened. A society w/o the right of self-defense is not the way to go, and is why우범근 wasn’t stopped until he stopped himself.
If you don’t want guns around, I suggest you move to a country that doesn’t allow them. I’ll even suggest the UK. But there you’ll have a far greater chance of someone breaking into your home while you’re there and beating the crap out of you while robbing you. That started happening after their gun ban.
But in the U.S. we have the constitution, and it’ll be a cold day in hell before the rights of normal citizens are truncated due to the fears of those running on pure emotion rather than logic. If you think it’s corporations, think again, it’s grassroots.
Read here for my comment: http://livejournal.com/users/tharp42
Hey man. You should link me. I have a Busan blog that a lot of people read. Give the expat south a voice… I am the first of the Busan 9, as well, though it looks pretty silly in light of recent events.
Here’s my two cents: htpp://livejournal/users/tharp42
Hey man,
You should give me a link. I have a Busan blog that a lot of people read, though anything I have to say is silly, given recent events.
Even so, give us southern expats a voice. And dare say I’m the one.
@gbeverss:
that cartoon, just….wow!
talk about a backfired attempt at yet another jab at the US by the Shinmun.
truly disgusting.
CM: I’m sorry to hear about your experience. That’s just wrong.
USinKorea: In a couple of comments further up, you wondered why someone didn’t rush the assailant. Others have already replied, but this wasn’t a Hollywood movie, and by the sounds of it, it would have taken not just one but maybe a couple of people with the superhuman presence of mind (in the heat of the moment), cojones, and complete lack of selflessness to disregard risking their life on the spur of the monent, to attempt such a move. In traumas like this, those who live are often plagued with “survivors’ guilt,” hating themselves for living when those close to them died. Let’s not compound that guilt by saying they could have done something more. There is nothing more any of the students or teachers caught in that situation could have been expected to do. Kudos, though, to those two guys who barricaded the door to their classroom.
We should wonder why this guy wasn’t successfully detained after the first spree—that would have been the best way to spare some lives.
I pray that the souls of those whose lives were cut short are enjoying eternal rest in God’s loving presence, and that he is comforting and guiding their families and loved ones.
@stupid cartoon
At least almost all the comments at the original Korean news site said the cartoon was bad taste, even before the shooter was outed as Korean. I guess even netizens have their limits.
Ledtim,
Yes, Koreans are criticizing the cartoon on the Seoul Shinmun Web site, but those comments did not start until 23:16, which was after Koreans found out that a Korean was the shooter. Why weren’t there any comments before then?
now is the time to examine why america is such a violent society. yeah, it happens everywhere and i am sure you can give examples but what we’re talking about here is frequency. this kind of thing happens here a hell of a lot more than any other country i know of. why? in my opinion, we have a culture of violence and a belief that said violence can solve anything. just look at iraq for a good example of our violent tendencies.
@156
I don’t know the exact timeline when the shooter’s Koreanness was confirmed, but there seems to be a couple of post before 23:16 http://tinyurl.com/2e8far
At least no one praised the cartoonist from what I’ve skimmed through.
On a somewhat tasteless note, at least the shooter had the courtesy to start the shooting during the beginning of final exam crunch time, not after all the finals are over and the summer vacation begins.
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America has always been a violent society. We were founded on violence. It is our history. We have a history of blood – from our civil war to the Indian “wars.” Violence has always been our MO. We try to flee from it in our suburbs and “gated communities,” but the fact remains that America was founded on blood, and was consolidated by the same currency.
I’m American, BTW. But we are a society based on conquest and killing. I don’t deny that. That doesn’t make us admirable, but our history is hardcore. It is a blood history. But it is ours, nonetheless.
I love my land and I hate what it’s become. But it’s who I am. I’m not a fighter or a hard man, but a good american cat will always have my heart, even if he wants to kick my ass… at least he’s interesting.
Judging from reactions by colleagues and hearsay from the baristas in the local coffee shop here in Northern Virginia, Koreans can rest easy. The shooter’s ethnicity is not an issue. Folks around here are just shook up and feeling tremendous sympathy for the deceased and their families. Nobody in our community is making any cultural connections between the killer’s nationality and his actions.
Thanks for the link, Ledtim.
I glanced over the boards and noted that a few commenters were concerned about a translated version of the cartoon appearing on US websites and have come down hard on the cartoonist. I thought this comment was well worth translating:
만평가는 범인이 한국인이라고 밝혀진다면.. 조회 90추천 02007/04/17 23:25
If the cartoonist had known the criminal was Korean…
titan94 IP 211.47.xxx.195
이렇게 미국을 비아냥거리면서 남의일처럼 느껴지는 만화질은 더이상 못하겠죠? 내일 만평이 참으로 궁금하네요..백무현씨가 어떤 만화를 그릴까? 오늘처럼 미국에서 사람죽은일을 비아냥거리는 만평으로 일관할까? 궁금하네요..
would he be so sarcastic towards the US? I wonder what sort of cartoon Baek Mu-hyeon will draw tomorrow. Will it be the same sarcasm as today towards America’s dead? I wonder.
I wish we waegooks had access to Naver. I’d love to rec that comment.
And this was the very first post to the cartoon:
한국계가 사실이라면 조회 138추천 02007/04/17 22:21
If it’s true that it was an ethnic Korean
jslfree IP 59.13.xxx.172
이 만화빨리 내려야 할 듯 하네요….
미국 네티즌 켑쳐하기 전에…
better hurry and take down the cartoon before American netizens copy it.
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“The Korean guy couldn’t say anything, couldn’t even stammer out a coherent reply.”
He should have said, “fuck off, you retard.”
I don’t think that kind of behavior deserves an eloquent reply.
I think
만평가는 범인이 한국인이라고 밝혀진다면.. 조회 90추천 02007/04/17 23:25
translates better as:
If it turns out that the criminal was a Korean, what would the cartoonist…
instead of
If the cartoonist had known the criminal was Korean…
Because I think the poster didn’t know for sure the criminal was Korean when he posted it, from his phrasing and the joking replies asking if he has the power of prophecy. Not that it matters too much.
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anyone have stories to share about black Americans getting harassed on right after they got Malvo and his junior sniper helper?
What? None?
How do you explain the lash against Koreans?
And how do you explain the above commenter’s comment that it was long overdue, deserved, and coming?
Double, double.
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wjk wrote:
“How do you explain the lash (sic) against Koreans?”
What backlash? One unfamiliar anonymous poster, firebrand, relates an anecdote about a Korean who apparently isn’t well-liked, imbedded in a comment spouting negative generalizations about Korean attitudes towards Americans.
One swallow does not a summer make.
#161 Sonagi: “Judging from reactions by colleagues and hearsay from the baristas in the local coffee shop here in Northern Virginia….Nobody in our community is making any cultural connections between the killer’s nationality and his actions.”
Sonagi! Better refer your colleagues & coffee shop “baristas” (?) to posts:
a) #157 (pawi: “…this kind of thing happens here a hell of a lot more than any other country i know of. why? in my opinion, we [Americans] have a culture of violence and a belief that said violence can solve anything…”)
b) #160 (tharp42: “….America has always been a violent society. We were founded on violence. It is our history. We have a history of blood – from our civil war to the Indian “wars.” Violence has always been our MO…”)
Based on these two posts, your colleagues’ responses are all wrong! They should be loading & cocking their own guns, measuring out lengths of rope, & casting dark & menacing glances at any Korean-Americans within eyeshot.
It’s simply impossible that pawi & tharp could be so wrong about their compelling insights into our fundamental American character. Better call for your fellow Virginians to come into compliance.
(A side note, from dictionary.com:
Main Entry: barista
Part of Speech: n
Definition: a person who works at the counter of a coffee shop; a coffee bar server
Example: He plans to become a barista at Starbucks.
Etymology: 1982; Ital
Usage: pl. baristi)
(Paul H: “A new word to me — had to look it up….I suppose smiling Virginia Starbucks baristas would be horrified, if I suggested they should keep a sawed-off behind the counter, like the barkeeps in the old-timey saloons?”)
(Sonagi: “*!%$@*!!!!”)
(Paul H: (Sigh)”Yes, I thought they would be…forget it, it was just a passing fancy on my part.”
(Paul H.: “May the Lord protect and keep safe all Starbucks customers, though Paul H wouldn’t take it amiss if Messrs. Smith and Wesson were called upon to provide the Lord with an ‘assist’ in this matter”.)
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/20.....uis-plays/
Listening to hours of radio and tv coverage, Sonagi’s right about the mass media discourse here ignoring Cho’s ethnicity and passport beyond the necessary biographical facts and elements, such as the legality of his gun purchases, that bear on the investigation. The gun control argument is taking a back seat to questions about the school’s handling of the crisis and missed signs that this particular creepy dude was more than just a creepy dude.
There will still be stupid and probably vile things said about and to Koreans by Americans, but the general cluelessness of the wider American public may help that kind of thing peter out pretty quickly. How many times has the artist formerly known as bluejives matter-of-factly reminded us that he has been and still is mistaken as Chinese? What’s more, despite the considerable energy both the ROK and the DPRK have in opposite ways expended to get and keep world attention, I’m sure a not insignificant fraction of the American population regularly confuses the two Koreas (I’m not counting long-time Korea watchers who wonder what’s up with that Sunshine movement.) I’ve seen this mistake, in the benign way people outside North America might confuse the Dakotas.
@Ledtim:
Your translation is more accurate, but it does not change the fact that news reports identifying the killer as possibly Korean had already leaked out by the first post “한국계가 사실이라면 조회 138추천 02007/04/17 22:21 ”
You noted correctly that “no one praised the cartoonist.” They mostly condemned his for sullying Korea’s international face after his cartoon started appearing in US and Japanese websites.
@Paul:
It was Starbucks who first propagated the term “barista” in the US, but my local joint is independently owned.
Richardson, all due respect, while you have great insights into the DPRK on your blog, your argument with Baduk on gun control was a bit pat.
This isn’t really the place for a gun control debate, and I wouldn’t call for a total ban on civilians owning firearms anyway, but I do want to make a couple points.
There is certainly ample cause in the U.S. for stricter regulation of firearms. I find more “pure emotion rather than logic” coming from the NRA, which is already “gunning” for Clinton and Obama in their fundraising because the two have called for such legislation.
The U.K. might have been a poor choice for comaprison: “In 2005/06 there were 766 offences initially recorded as homicide by the police in England and Wales (including the 52 victims of the 7 July 2005 London bombings), a rate of 1.4 per 100,000 of population. Only 50 (6.6%) were committed with firearms, one being with an air weapon. The homicide rate for London was 2.4 per 100,000 in the same year (1.7 when excluding the 7 July bombings).
By comparison, 5.5 murders per 100,000 of population were reported by police in the United States in 2000, of which 70% involved the use of firearms (75% of which were illegally obtained).”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.....arms_crime
I’d rather take my chances on a beating than be shot to death. There is cause for concern about gun violence in the U.S. and I’d like to see some action on it.
here now, I’ll tell you something truthful that just happenned over dinner.
A friend of mine asked me,
“So, do you know that guy from V-Tech?”
He was smiling as he said it, but it pissed me off and I waited in silence until he apologized.
Would I have asked him,
“So, do you know that bomber dude from Okalahoma, or the Uni Bomber, or Buford, etc?”
Uh, NO.
Anyone know if this guy, the shooter, had a Cyworld page? Market penetration for Cyworld is pretty high for his age group.. might shed some light on what the heck was going on in his head…
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The NYT has some interesting stuff today, like two of Cho’s plays:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04.....ref=slogin
And this:
“Ian MacFarlane, who now works for AOL and graduated from Virginia Tech in 2006, according to his Facebook profile, introduced the plays in gripping fashion:
When I first heard about the multiple shootings at Virginia Tech yesterday, my first thought was about my friends, and my second thought was “I bet it was Seung Cho.”
And goes on to describe how the rest of the class felt during peer-review sessions:
When we read Cho’s plays, it was like something out of a nightmare. The plays had really twisted, macabre violence that used weapons I wouldn’t have even thought of. Before Cho got to class that day, we students were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter. I was even thinking of scenarios of what I would do in case he did come in with a gun, I was that freaked out about him. When the students gave reviews of his play in class, we were very careful with our words in case he decided to snap. Even the professor didn’t pressure him to give closing comments.”
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/
If this is true (along with a professor saying there was “concern” about him based on his writing and classroom demeanor) why didn’t the school authorities talk to him earlier?
http://agoraplaza.media.daum.n.....rdNo=26899
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Michael,
This is very relevant to the V-Tech case, as just last year a law that would have allowed concealed carry – by permit only – on school grounds was voted down.
The notion that more restrictive gun control laws and less availability of firearms equals a lower murder rate is a complete myth. Between 1959 and 2000 the correlation between ownership (availability) and the murder rate was 0.128448, which means weak to non-existent. I can post an Excel spreadsheet if requested (although I might not see such a request in this mess of comments, so the comment form at my site would be better).
It’s funny you mention emotion, since when an incident such as this occurs, what we get is pure emotion calling for more gun control. The numbers tell a different story, however.
Also, the UK – or the rest of Europe – didn’t have comparable murder rates before their gun control. Comparing apples to bowling balls.
Funny how all the other amendments are sacrosanct, huh? Or even made to say things they actually don’t.
But I know when things are futile to argue; the emotion vs. logic/facts deal.
Richardson, I appreciate your response–in fact, in real numbers, the murder rate in the U.S. has declined in recent years. That does not make the current level of gun violence acceptable however.
As I said, I wouldn’t call for a total ban on civilians owning firearms, nor is it neccessary to touch the Constitution in implementing some practical measures.
I see emotions runing high on all sides when these events occur, it’s just human nature. All I’m saying is that more can be done to curtail gun violence in the U.S., which is hardly a radical stance.
Why am I not surprised that we are already hearing the “yellow rage” excuse?
The Virginia 33 deserve better.
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The term “gun violence” is an emotionally charged term itself. Guns don’t commit any acts, only people do.
I find it sadly ironic that the facts suggest that more legally armed people lead to less crime, and the places with the most gun “control” have the highest crime rates, but when something like this occurs, many still call for yet more control.
But this is largely (Baduk excepted) a left/right divide, just like taxes. The knee-jerk reaction is “more gun control will equal less crime,” but the reality is that’s a myth. With taxes it’s, “we need more revenue, so let’s tax the ‘rich’ more,” which (over time) actually leads to much smaller tax revenues and slower growth.
A never ending cycle.
Diversity.
The shooters parents have committed suicide.
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=595
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I think I found that wall of Jews Rhie Won Bok was talking about.
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Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid warned against a rush to judgement on gun control:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/vir.....ub3eWs0NUE
I was wondering if anyone currently in the U.S. can tell me what public sentiment is like over there regarding the identity of the killer?
In my office here in Korea, the issue has taken on a very racial and ethnicity related turn when it comes up in conversation. No one is seeing this as an act done by a disturbed individual but as a Korean whose actions will provoke anti-Korean feelings in the U.S. by Americans and whose actions will put Koreans currently in the U.S. at risk.
I suppose it is an understandable concern but I want to know if there is any indication that that is the direction things are going in over there right now.
Judging from the reports I’m reading in the news, the racial and ethnic identity of the killer is simply a fact and nothing else. But being that I feel so far removed from what is being said in the States offline and not to the media, I am curious if the killer’s race and ethinicity are being treated as anything more than just facts at this point? Have there been hints of anti-Korean sentiments over there?
Thanks.
Richardson, it’s a cultural thing, many nations have high gun ownership and low murder rates, like the Swiss and Canadians, while our country has gun homicide through the roof. Are you saying the status quo is acceptable?
Also, I don’t particularly have “emotional” associations with guns–my father was a Marine and I have shot/hunted with pistols and rifles and have a healthy respect for their proper use.
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“A Virginia Tech spokeswoman who appeared at the news conference denied that Cho’s parents, who live in Virginia, had committed suicide.
She said some media had erroneously reported that the couple, who moved to the U.S. in the 1990s, had killed themselves.
She emphasized that both are very much alive.”
http://ciproud.com/content/ful.....p;cid=1997
what’s so wrong about pointing out an American phenomenon that anyone can readily see outside the major US cities?
“What country are you from?”
“I mean your original country.”
“What’s your name?”
“I mean your REAL name.”
These folks get this awe strucken look when I ask them what country they are originally from. Then, they get puzzled and finally understand, and say things like Oh, mostly German, some Irish, blah, blah, etc.
Dude, it’s out there and it’s wrong.
Judging by the over represntation % wise of our group in US higher universities (it’s not 2% of the student body, like the population %), East Asians provide high intel service in society and still get the diss in some aspects.
So are you saying that what Cho did is payback?
I can’t believe you are comparing the insensitivity of someone asking where you’re from (which is done in good will) with this tragedy.
Can you not see how offensive that is?
I think now might be a good time to choose one’s words with a little care and empathy for the actual victims here (who are not Korean-American society, despite news reports to the contrary).
this is a tragic event and my prayers and condolences go out to the family. i haven’t read all the comments but shouldn’t politics (gun control issue) and petty arguments about race or who’s right/wrong be set aside for another day?
has there been any report about the parents of this guy?
I was wondering if anyone currently in the U.S. can tell me what public sentiment is like over there regarding the identity of the killer?
In my office here in Korea, the issue has taken on a very racial and ethnicity related turn when it comes up in conversation. No one is seeing this as an act done by a disturbed individual but as a Korean whose actions will provoke anti-Korean feelings in the U.S. by Americans and whose actions will put Koreans currently in the U.S. at risk.
Jodi, it seems that the only ones who are obsessing over the fact that he was Korean, Asian, or whatever are are kyopo and other Asian-Americans. All the usual “how will this make us look?” hand-wringing. Personally, I find it small-minded and pathetic. I say this as a kyopo myself.
I find it equally ridiculous that native Koreans in Korea are worried about how this might affect US-Korea relations and so forth. I understand that a Korean embassy even issued an apology. If they are so worried about the killer’s Korean-ness being a factor then they certainly aren’t helping matters any by deliberately emphasizing it by taking official responsibility for it.
The only problem I have is too many headlines do keep saying “South Korean” to describe the gunman, as if he were a fresh-off-the-boat foreigner who just arrived recently. This guy is a pure kyopo, who majored in English Literature and has been living in the US since an early age. Not an international student on a student visa or anything like that. But I guess that’s a subtle distinction that only a kyopo would know.
#193: “In my office here in Korea, the issue has taken on a very racial and ethnicity related turn when it comes up in conversation. No one is seeing this as an act done by a disturbed individual but as a Korean whose actions will provoke anti-Korean feelings in the U.S. by Americans and whose actions will put Koreans currently in the U.S. at risk.”
I think that’s what would here if a foreigner did the same (just look at the accident of 2002), so consider it as projection. Other than a few snide comments as mentioned above, I doubt there will be any backlash.
Robert, your note is gratuitous and unfair. I still have not seen any commentary anywhere that suggests that this incident happened because the shooter was a Korean. It is also wrong for you to try to defend Koreans by pointing the finger at another ethnic group. Whites happen to be the majority population in the US, and thus would make up the majority of these kinds of shootings in the US. Just like the majority of shooters in Korea would be Koreans. Anyway, I think that what you wrote is flawed an unhelpful. A more principled “Marmot’s Note” would simply be one of sadness for this unprecedented tragedy.
[quote]“What country are you from?”
“I mean your original country.”[/quote]
On my first day of grad school I witnessed this type of exchange between an African-American man and Asian-American woman. Quite painful to watch on my part, but both of them eventually became close friends of mine as well as friends with each other. After getting to know him, I don’t believe the man had any negative intentions toward her. He just lacked the knowledge of how to tactfully find out a person’s background in a small-talk environment.
There’s a lot of ignorance in the US and I can understand how it can be offensive. However, not ALL of it is mean spirited, meant to degrade, etc. It’s just, simply, ignorance. Ignorance is regrettable, yes, but ultimately the first stage of learning (so long as it’s not willful ignorance). I’d like to humbly suggest it is more effectively countered with education than vindictiveness. Progress is made by building bridges, not knocking them down.
i meant families.
#179 wrote:
could someone translate this or explain it?
#179 wrote:
could someone translate this or explain it?
woops fixed the link
dogbertt on 198,
No.
I think you completely misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I’m not comparing what you think I’m comparing.
My only comparison is how the American public reacts when, say the Columbine kids or McVeigh is caught doing it versus this situation.
By the way, did McVeigh’s or the Columbine kid’s parents consider suicide? Why the suicide report on Cho’s parents?
NO parent should see their children die before them.
That said, a lot of V-Tech people died because of Cho. Cho deserves to be hated. Hate him. Not an ethinic group in America. Hate him. Not his parents.
I hope all the injured recover without any permanent nerve or muscle damages.
And I hope all the dead are in a better place.
It’s terrible to watch parents grieving over their fallen children.
Something like this should never happen again anywhere.
@#206
It’s a expression of regret and sorrow to the victims. The writer is especially troubled that it came at the hands of a Korean national. He/she requests that people sign the petition as a way of collectively expressing their sympathy.
usinkorea #35
There was a lot of violence against arabs in Dearborn after 9/11.
But I wouldn’t expect spike in violence against Asians. This doesn’t even compare to 9/11 in scale. I do expect that people will get weird stares and whispers behind their back.
“Robert, your note is gratuitous and unfair.”
I agree, and came to post the same thing, but was beat to it.
#208 THanks Iceberg.
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Thinking gun control would prevent something like this is ridiculous.
If anything, having more people on campus with concealed carry permits could have put a stop to it. Someone that decides to shoot 30 odd people isn’t waking up thinking about gun laws. If I really wanted a gun, I could get one. Even in Korea… Only law-abiding citizens follow the law.
Americans have guns because our history began in revolution. An armed citizenry keeps the government in check. Unfortunately, this is changing… especially as the “Sheeple” use incidents like this to advocate more gun control. Guess what? The sheepdogs (police, military) will very rarely be there to protect you, and the wolves have will always have free reign.
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Not being used to guns as they’re not readily available in Canada, I’d still say that if I were one of those students in the locked building, I would definitely have wanted to have my own gun on me. Students must have felt horribly helpless knowing that some crazed gunman was coming for them and they had nothing to protect themselves. Where were the security guards or anybody? Nobody on campus had a gun, not even security?
This is a time of mourning for the people affected by this tragedy and for this of us in the sidelines, it is a time for sending condolences to those affected.
This is not a time for unloading whatever racial thoughts we have inside our heads.
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#206
It’s a link to a daum.net
A korean netizen requested that people sign the petition as a way of collectively expressing their sympathy toward the victims.
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Oops, didn’t quite say it clearly in my last post.
I’m not sure that I like the idea of complete and free availability of guns (a la the wild west), but I certainly would have wanted to have a gun if I had been one of those poor students trapped in that building.
And as stated by others, my condolences to the injured and the families of those killed. A sad and tragic event.
“Thank you! Shakuhachi aka Matt of Occidentalism – who continues to have pictures of an innocent Virginia Tech student as the “possible perp” of the shootings on his blog, giving advice on “principled blogging”. That’s rich.”
Don’t forget to mention BoingBoing and Drudgereport, which also jumped on that guy’s blog (Boingboing still had the photos up last time I checked).
I heard on the Korean news here in LA that the father committed suicide and the mother attempted suicide. More sad news…
So be it, shakuhachi.
Oops! You already answered, Iceberg. Thanks.
Anyhow, an awful tragedy like this massacre is an unpredictable and completely without comprehension. Too bad that no one could have predicted or been prepared for this tragedy. Who could predict it? It just beyond my understanding…
AS mins0306 pointed I also think it is a time for sending condolences to those affected.
And we should all be thankful that we do not have to deal with it, we only have to view it from afar and shake our heads.
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Anyway, my apologies if I have overstepped my bounds and spoken in turn, Robert. It is your blog.
kimcheeone–maybe you missed it up there, I posted a report that said Cho’s parents did not commit suicide.
Here’s another:
http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20070417193523830
Marmot, I know where you’re coming from–your point is well taken. Never mind the haters, as they say.
A couple of links, first about the family and reaction in S.K.:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap.....ooting.php
Second shootings occured as the campus police fillowed up on wrog lead:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04.....ia.html?hp
Yeah, well, the fact that ANYONE is Korean is ultimately irrelevant.
The only thing about Robert’s note, it would be great if he would tweak it a bit and translate it into Korean and then post it everytime a GI or English teacher committed a crime in Korea.
jk wrote:
Of course, you have no way of knowing that — you’re not omniscient after all.
It occurs to me that both the Joongang Ilbo and the Korea Times _regularly_ include in news articles online quotes from “Netizens”, quoting them by their IDs. Evidently, the Korean media has a different idea.
Oh, and thinking about Robert’s note again, I do agree that Cho is not representative of Koreans. But it is a fact that we always hear Koreans credit folks like Michelle Wie or Korean students who get perfect SAT scores as being the result of “Korean values”. Yet, the truth is Michelle Wie is actually also one in a million whose success is due to her own hard work and talent, not “Korean values”.
wjk:
“What country are you from?”
“I mean your original country.”
“What’s your name?”
“I mean your REAL name.”
There’s one reason for all of us to calm down about anti-Korean sentiment. As someone else already pointed out, a lot of us white people in America can’t tell the difference between Asian ethnicities (whether you think this is reprehensible is another argument), and maybe I’m an ignoramus, but I don’t think I could have pointed to South Korea on a map before I was offered a job here. There was a post here not to long ago about the the portrayal of a Korean store owner in the movie Crash when the part was supposed to be a Chinese man. If anything, I would think there would be a rise in the harassment of “Asians,” not Koreans in particular.
Also, for anyone who even suggests it was a white hate thing, you can give the guy credit for being an equal opportunity murderer. His victims were old, young, white, black, Asian, Jewish, and Indian from what I’ve seen so far. I would think anything directed against whites would have resulted in fewer minority victims, especially another Korean student.
hey BADUK!
You say you’re not justifying what he’s doing but you ARE. Just read what you’re saying. You’re trying to make up reasons of why he would do such a thing. Looks like you sympathy for this pathetic piece of shit. You have NO IDEA why he did it so stop coming to conclusions about a situation you know NOTHING about.
Naver is reporting that a half-Korean student wounded in the massacre has now died.
http://news.naver.com/news/rea.....enu_id=104
I certainly hope that this tragedy doesn’t spark a frenzy of hatred or incidents against Koreans in the US. This shooter was a loser, pure and simple, no matter what nationality.
[Rest of comment deleted at commenter's request: Robert]
Re: Korea, Sparkling
I just heard that there was to be a huge rollout of ads for TODAY in the US.
They were all pulled. No refunds. The KTO’s just going to suck it up.
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FiRe,
I have similar background as Cho. Yes, I feel sympathy toward him.
As I wrote before, if he had stayed in Korea, he might have turned out to be a fine person. He would have been incorporated into the “mainstream” of society.
However, in US he had too many problems. Language problem, racism, money, different skin color, shyness, etc. Why did he choose English as his major, I have no idea. He had chosen the worst major for himself. I bet he was getting C’s. If he had chosen accounting or hotel management, he might have been OK. He had poor vocabulary. Many who have read his plays thought that it was written by a junior high school student.
His life was hard. His grades were poor and he had no future. And, he had no friend. He felt he did not deserve to live. No reason to live. A failure at 23. He befriended a beautiful girl but she made it clear that she did not want him. He had nothing to live for.
He shot everyone.
My brother brought an interesting point. It is known that those anti-deprescent pills have side effects. Sometimes it can make the patients very violent. Some explode as Cho did.
Marmot: the fact that the shooter is Korean is, ultimately, irrelevant. He was a sick kid. Period. You can talk try to read into this tragedy cultural factors all you like … but the fact remains that there are 100,000 Korean students in the United States, not to mention about 1 million Korean-Americans, many of whom share the same cultural background as the shooter, and NONE of them have shot up their schools.”
That is similar to what I said about Hines Ward, but nobody listened. When a Korean does something great lets remember that there are lots and lots of mediocre Korean nobodies in the US who never did anything unusual. After all, most great great NFL players are Black. Hence, “Koreaness” has nothing to do with it.
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Although marmot seems to think “Koreaness” has nothing to do with this kids mindset, I find nothing offensive in Baduk’s speculating. While maybe Baduk Baduk is terse (I think we can expect that), as a Korean-American he has some insights into the kid’s head.
Stop speculating and read the facts:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....id=topnews
Have some respect for the dead and injured.
I suspect that when all is said and done, someone will have missed the pile of twinkie wrappers in this kid’s wastebasket. Just glad this wasn’t done by some psychotic vet back from the war.
Robert, I for one thank you for being objective and impartial on this matter. Liberal vs. Republican, White vs Non-Whites, Japanese vs Korean, political agenda pushing is getting out of control.
I cry about the victims. I feel so sad. I felt depressed a whole day.
I am not condoning his action. It is so horrendous. So savage. So destructive.
Yet, I do not simply want to dismiss him as a sick and mad man. I want to understand him. Like the Son of Sam. He was disliked by girls. That is why he went around shooting a couple making out in a car.
Cho was heavily depressed. He listened to Gun’s and Roses. He saw cheap horror movies. His English was poor. He did not speak in his classes. He felt isolated. He had no friend.
I know some of you expats are going through similar experiences in Korea as a minority.
I am not blaming the US society for Cho’s problems. Yet, I do blame the society for letting Cho carry out his sinister plan. I think people’s freedom to own guns should have limits.
Can the US face another tragedy like this? Columbine occurred a few years ago. Should we expect another shootout like this a couple of years later? How about next year?
I heard that California does a better job than Virginia. Cho would have to wait for one month prior to getting his gun. In Virgina, he got it that day. California does more background check.
Instead of saying “what can we do?”, let’s do something about it. I have two kids attending college. I don’t want them to die like these kids did.
This guy was a loser and a completely selfish a**hole. He could have chosen to take all the problems and suffering he had and turn it into something positive. As pointed out by so many, the vast majority of Korean-Americans are doing quite well. Instead, he took a wrong turn.
This guy deserves no excuses nor no pity whatsoever. He is yet another example of extreme narcissistic selfishness. Seems a common trait with violent criminals. He didn’t give a crap about anyone or anything. His own feelings were the only important thing in the world to him.
I do feel sorry for his family, though.
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The word I am looking for is “Adjustment”.
Some do adjust to his/her surroundings when one gets moved from one environment to another. Going from Korea to America is quite a change as many of you who made it in the reverse direction would attest to.
Some do adjust while others do not. Cho’s sister is doing well. Cho was not. It may have something to do with ability to pick up language. Language is so important to one’s self-esteem.
Again, I wonder why Cho chose English as his major. It is like a dwarf choosing basketball as his sport. Tragedy waiting to happen.
Thank, Michael, for good links.
I hope and pray all you expats do find a good surroundings in Korea and your Korean expriences be enjoyable ones. And, don’t go killing Koreans at random because your hate toward some Koreans. It is so unfair to take out your feeling on innocent victims.
After reading that Washington Post article michael posted, I’m somewhat confused about the girlfriend thing. It doesn’t sound like he had a girlfriend at all.
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here’s one local angle from korean americans in seattle.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....ean18.html
“It doesn’t sound like he had a girlfriend at all.”
I suspect that she was some beauty he loved from afar and he somehow believed that she secretly loved him, though she may have never met him before.
Oranckay:
May I politely request you to delete H. Kim’s comment #108, as it is a personal attack. The German text which H. Kim put there reads in translation:
“You asshole, do me the favour, shut up and fuck off.”
I think this statement of H. Kim’s speaks for itself. No further comment necessary…
Seoulmilk, interesting take on the whole thing, but I find it ridiculous that Koreans or Korean-Americans feel the need to apologize for the actions of this loser. There is absolutely no way that any Korean should apologize for this!
There would be not a chance in hell that I would ever apologize for the actions of some white Canadian male with French blood, despite being all three (I think that mass murderer in Montreal might have been this-Marc Lepine, who is hopefully rotting in hell). Guilt should be felt by those who commit wrong acts. Other apologies are bizarre and absolutely unnecessary.
“Robert, I for one thank you for being objective and impartial on this matter. Liberal vs. Republican, White vs Non-Whites, Japanese vs Korean, political agenda pushing is getting out of control.”
I couldn’t agree more when it comes to this story.
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“In America, the whites view non-whites as “them”.
In the ROK they view you as “them.”
I didn’t say either was right.
Both are wrong.”
# 195.
WJK:
Yes, I fully agree that such attitudes exist on both sides of the Pacific.
But, as a Non-White (though Caucasian), who used to live in various Western countries (Germany, France, Britain, and Canada among them), as well as in Korea, I can confidently say that the extent to which I was perceived as “the other” varied considerably in the different countries – and was incomparably lower in the afore-mentioned Western countries than in the ROK.
By the way, in Singapore, where I spent my teenage years, I never felt as “the other” in any way. Which is why regard Singapore as my real “native” country, although I hold a German passport and am of Romanian descent…
The responses by the two national medias are quite interesting. The American media has apparently chosen the route of exoticizing Cho as a “South Korean national” in the United States as a student. Of course, racism and xenophilia rear their ugly heads whenever push comes to shove, and I expected nothing less from the American media. It is fascinating as how they’re reporting his name too, as Cho Seung-hui (in a traditional Korean order) rather than as Seung Cho or Seung-hui Cho (with the family name coming last as all Koreans do when they move to the States) as he apparently referred to himself. I mean, they don’t refer to the Korean-American actress Yunjin Kim as Kim Yunjin, do they?
The fact is that this kid was 8 years old when he immigrated to the US with his family. So Baduk, I do not understand why you presume that he had poor English. Have you even actually read some of this kid’s writings? His plays did not have particularly sophisticated vocabulary, but his linguistic abilities were clearly at least on par with typical American college students. And besides, I can attest to you that as a Korean male who immigrated to the States at almost 12 years old and majored in literature, this kid was not like a midget trying to play basketball.
Any linguistic expert will tell you that a child who moves to another culture before the age of around 11 or 12 can acquire the new language at a native or very close to native efficiency.
If anything, this particular AP article written by a journalist of Korean background provides much insight to Cho’s family background.
http://www.chron.com/disp/stor.....25036.html
Here’s a telling excerpt from the article.
“Cho Seung-Hui’s family lived in a Seoul suburb in a rented basement apartment — usually the cheapest in a multi-unit building, landlord Lim Bong-ae, 67, told Chosun Ilbo, South Korea’s largest newspaper.
“I didn’t know what (Cho’s father) did for a living. But they lived a poor life,” Lim told the newspaper. “While emigrating, (Cho’s father) said they were going to America because it is difficult to live here and that it’s better to live in a place where he is unknown.”
Does that sound like a father who would have instilled much self-confidence or self-esteem in his son? Cho’s father felt disenfranchised in his own country. Pretty powerful revelation, if you ask me.
But I do applaud Baduk’s efforts to understand the killer’s tortured mind. Because the only way we will be able to help prevent such horrors from occurring in the future is to understand the conditions that foster such horrors.
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Dogbertt, # 230:
“The only thing about Robert’s note, it would be great if he would tweak it a bit and translate it into Korean and then post it everytime a GI or English teacher committed a crime in Korea.”
Exactly my thinking…
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baduk wrote: “However, in US he had too many problems. Language problem, racism, money, different skin color, shyness, etc…”
baduk, what are you doing? We don’t know anything about Cho. Are you just trolling for kicks?
You really have drunk too much of the local Kool-Aid.
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Bluetranslator: “Of course, racism and xenophilia rear their ugly heads whenever push comes to shove, and I expected nothing less from the American media. It is fascinating as how they’re reporting his name too, as Cho Seung-hui (in a traditional Korean order) rather than as Seung Cho or Seung-hui Cho (with the family name coming last as all Koreans do when they move to the States) as he apparently referred to himself. I mean, they don’t refer to the Korean-American actress Yunjin Kim as Kim Yunjin, do they?”
Care to clarify how that is racism and/or xenophobia? Just ridiculous.
I’ll tell you why I think that there is at least a xenophobic bent to the coverage in the American media. Every major headline has included the words “South Korean national” and has printed his name not as Cho himself used it in the States or as it would’ve been seen on any legal papers in the States. You may think that whether he’s referred to as Cho Seung-hui or Seung Cho (as he wrote his name on his college papaers), but it is an important distinction as to how an ethnic Asian defines his or her identity. And what I’ve stated is that however subtle as it may seem, the coverage by the US media has been xenophobic and racist.
My point, to reiterate, is that they are DE-AMERICANIZING the kid. He may technically have been a South Korean citizen, but he was in essence a suburban American kid who happened to have immigrated to this country at a young age. They’re making him seem like a FOREIGNER with an exotic name, when he grew up speaking English since the age of 8 in a DC suburb. One of THEM, in a nutshell.
And by the way, the US does NOT have an unrestricted immigration policy. Please, give me a break. And his family came here as LEGAL immigrants. He was a legal permanent resident. For whatever reason, he never chose to go through the naturalization process. I’ve lived in the States for some 20 years now as a legal permanent resident, and I’ve chosen not to get naturalized. It’s a personal choice. Legal residents do everything US citizens do except vote and serve on jury duty. Shame on you for trying to turn this into a rallying point for the anti-immigration cause. Talk about demagoguery.
i for one don’t always agree with iheartblueballs, but what he just wrote is exactly how i feel and what i want to say to koreans. i really don’t won’t to get involved with who’s right/wrong and about the two societies, but blueballs said what needed to be said. but he needs to point this out to koreans as well on naver. can anybody translate it and post it up there?
Yes. Yes. Sophisticated Americans would know that Cho Seung-hui was a Korean but Seung-hui Cho is obviously an American. Would that they did.
Perhaps
Who are you referring to?
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If I were in charge of VT and this happened I would be concerned about some idiot retaliating against the “East Asian” students. I’m not projecting something from “my culture”, it’s just something we must consider.
Newton Kabiddles:
I agree to some extent with you that there is such a possibility – my wife (a ROK national) is worried to some extent about this danger, as well. But then, it is the Korean, not the Caucasian, side who is usually fuelling the ethnic tensions in the ROK, in Germany, and elsewhere…
My wife (a Korean medical student in Germany) just told me on the phone that the Yuhaksaeng over there are fêting the killer as a national hero…
First of all, why is it that some people have to resort to ad hominem attacks just because they don’t happen to agree with other people’s opinions?
What I said was that every headline that identified the killer said “South Korean national”, and I don’t see what his technical nationality has anything to do with it. And the deliberate “Orientalizing” of the order of his name, in a way that never would have been used in the States is troubling. If you think that most of these elites in the media do not really know the difference, you are fooling yourselves.
And I have never tried to exonerate Cho for the crimes he committed. I’d never even try. Ultimately an individual has to be held responsible for their own actions, and in a way that is all that can ever be truly said about it. You can look for biological predispositions or environmental factors, but in the end all we can do is hold individuals culpable for the crimes they commit. And I can go on and on about how I think that his Korean background may have contributed to his psychological breakdown. In fact, I am not particularly rosy in my assessment of contemporary Korean culture at all. But that was not the issue I was addressing. I was specifically addressing the reaction of the US media in regards to the killer’s identity.
I think the Asian-American reaction to worry about retaliation is normal. To say their concern is a reflection/projection of THEIR culture is bigotry. All of us worry about this type of thing. This is not unique to East Asian culture.
“…it is the Korean, not the Caucasian, side who is usually fuelling the ethnic tensions in the ROK…”
I don’t know if that is true. And how does that relate to the topic?
Now it’s “Orientalism” to use Korean name order. God I hate Edward Said who, of course, was talking about the Middle East.
PS: Why do we say Chinese names properly and Korean, Japanese, and … names improperly?
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“…it is the Korean, not the Caucasian, side who is usually fuelling the ethnic tensions in the ROK…”
I don’t know if that is true. And how does that relate to the topic?
Newton Kabiddles:
I did not only mention the ROK, but also other countries where large Korean minorities exist. My (Korean) wife is somewhat scared of a backlash herself, but she is aware that, if such a backlash were indeed to occur it would be partly due to the persistent race baiting by the Koreans (and this term in my terminology means only Korean nationals, not Gyopo with a foreign passport and a different cultural background) in the respective countries. It is not difficult to imagine that this makes them extremely unpopular…
Yes, Said, in his book, used “orientalism” to refer specifically to the Middle East, but the term can be and is now often used to refer to all of Asia. “something considered characteristic of the people of west, east, or central Asia.” as defined by Oxford English Dictionary.
“See, what happened with this Korean-American kid did was a sick twisted act of a lone individual. In fact one Korean-American out of about a million Korean-Americans…”
Bluetranslator:
Yes, that is 100 pc correct – but why was I viciously attacked by a large group of Yuhaksaeng in Britain in 1991 when a Korean langauage student had been murdered by a rapist in Germany. And, btw, although I’m German, I am not even “White”…
http://occidentalism.org/
yet again the insensitivity of many Koreans is shown in the cartoons here. scroll down for a look
Anyone who mentions Hines Ward in a post loses all his credibility. Also, Koreans are not the only group fearing backlash.
We’re not talking about united American front. We’re talking this event mobilizing the set of racists and “bad apples” that already exist in America.
To those making an issue of the guy’s name as it appears in the press: Get over it. The AP Style Guide (and probably NYT) says the names of South Korean nationals are to be rendered thus: Kim Young-sam. The scrote was legally a South Korean national, so they’re just following the ol’ style book, no xenophobia (or xenophilia
#262) intended.
Really? How shocking. By over there, you mean in the US, right?
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“Really? How shocking. By over there, you mean in the US, right?”
No, Matt/Shak, read my comment with care and you will see that I mean Germany – there is no reference to the US in my post.
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Strange that I suddenly get attacked by you – still have to get used to that…
Never mind.
Fantasy
(any country, okay, I was not trying to manipulate your post)
I think I understand your idea but I’m not sure.
Are you saying that overseas Koreans nationals are more likely to feel threatened in this present situation because of their general behaviour and attitudes about racism? That if, for example, the shooter was Turkish, the Turkish students would not feel the same way?
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Omg, I did put xenophilia instead of xenophobia, lol. Wow, what an ass… well, you know what I meant. Accidentally replacing a word with another that means the complete opposite…. sigh
An American goes insane and somehow kills a bunch Korean students at Sogang University. The next day other innocent Americans students in Korea feel they might be randomly attacked by Koreans. Why?
Is that somehow different than Asian students at Virginia Tech thinking the same thing?
Marmot wrote:
1. You castigate those who might want to draw conclusions on the basis of cultural factors.
2. You then proceed to do just that, castigating young white males.
Perhaps? QED.
But in a way, you helped me make my argument. The thing is that the media had a choice in how to present his name. 1) In the fashion reserved for Korean nationals as in Kim Young-sam 2) In the fashion reserved for Korean-Americans as in Yun-jin Kim.
But even though the killer used his name in the Korean-American fashion as Seung Hui Cho, the American media almost universally uses Cho Seung-hui. It’s just strange why they’d present his name in the Korean way rather than the American way.
His name order is in the Korean manner because he is a South Korean national, not a Korean American. I do not think it is strange at all that the media should not care how a mass murderer used his name. He may have used it in the manner of the locals, but he was a foreign national.
Since nationality in America is decided by government fiat, the government decides who is American and who is not. No matter how many years he lived in America, without the piece of paper, he is not an American.
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#299: But he WAS a Korean national, not a Korean-American, so there’s no choice.
Thank God for blueballs…er…in a manner of speaking.
I’m at a loss for why people would decry the use of “South Korean” in a byline or headline. Seems to me there is an enormous expectation here that a national label carries social implications everywhere. But, an awful lot of people throughout this thread seem to be saying that the American media ought to be fully cognizant of the, frankly, unhealthy sense of personal implication many Koreans might feel simply from this man being called South Korean while not understanding that Americans don’t feel an ounce of guilt for what one wacko American might do in another country. “I didn’t do it so I ain’t gonna feel guilty.” If an American commits a crime in another country and that countries media prints headlines with “American does such-and-such” big whuppdy do!! That’s what is is and I don’t care; doesn’t impact my sense of guilt one single bit. It’s when the media starts saying “Koreans are like this” or “Americans are like this” that there comes a reason for concern. So far, all I have seen is accurate labeling of this man as a foreign national who comes from South Korea. Get over the whole “we’re all americans” crap! A distinguishing feature is his coming from Korea. I would expect the response from other Koreans in America to say “so what” and not to bellyache about the use of “South Korea” in a byline. I mean really, has anyone heard any American media member ask “what part of Korean culture might have caused this” or “what might other Koreans do next?” Not me.
Addendum to #302: Maybe I need to add the personal preference of the person being named doesn’t enter into it.
Just now I heard “Jeong Seong Wee” on a tv.
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“Are you saying that overseas Koreans nationals are more likely to feel threatened in this present situation because of their general behaviour and attitudes about racism? That if, for example, the shooter was Turkish, the Turkish students would not feel the same way?”
Newton Kabiddles:
I am saying that, to some extent, the Yuhaksaeng are projecting their own xenophobia and aversion against people of other races onto the people around them, whom they believe to have the same aversion against them as they have against these people.
Okay, maybe that is so only in Germany…
blueballs, re #268, that’s one helluva comment. Well put.
#63 Baduk, Americans have had guns in the home since day one. The differnce today is personal responsability.
Another masterpiece from iheartblueballs. Do you have a blog?
#297-
Oh, I don’t know, maybe the extensive history of such attacks in the wake of incidents such as the 2002 armored vehicle accident?
Yup. Because in the Land of the Morning Calm there’s a history of that sort of thing. As iheartblueballs put it so well, the fears are projection.
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“I think that’s a bunch of horse shit. No one is thinking like that other than a some expats in Korea. Expats are projecting thier anger about some shit in Korea.”
Newton:
Let’s settle this issue by the conclusion that there is some quite serious shit in the ROK (and I, and other expatriates, have experienced it) – and there is some really serious shit in Germany, as well. And nobody is denying that there is also some very, very serious shit in the US.
I do, however, uphold my contention that Koreans (and when I say “Koreans” I mean those born and bred in the ROK, respectively the DRPK) due to their Confucianist upbringing are more likely to take events such as the Virginia Massacre as issues with relevance to their entire group, whereas we Westerners (and this includes Caucasians, Asians, Blacks, Browns brought up in Western countries such as the US, Canada, Australia, Britain, France, or Sweden) generally do not think this way.
You see, back in 1991 when I was student in Britain, I heard about a young Korean lady being raped and murdered in Berlin. I felt sorry for her but did not expect that the crime would affect my own life in any way. I was (and still am) a German national, but I had left Germany in 1974, I had never been in Berlin, and I was not even white. So why the fuck should I worry ?
Many Yuhaksaeng, however, very quickly made clear to me that I had reason to worry. I could only regain my safety by requesting the university to institute formal disciplinary proceedings against the culprits, with the possibility of their eviction being announced to them in the case of their continued misbehaviour.
See my point, Newton ? This observation of mine concerns KOREANS (including Yuhaksaeng) – definitely no offence to Gyopo intended – I’ve never had much to do with Gyopo…
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So, the kid was born in South Korea/grew up in the US? Get over it (regardless of whether you are de-Americanizing or de-Koreanizing him).
I think some people are overplaying Koreans reaction to the identity of the murderer. As much as people like to say Koreans are overly conscious of how they are perceived abroad, this won’t really affect South Koreans. For one, the fact that the kid grew up in the US allows South Koreans to distance themselves psychologically (and geographically) from him. That’s pretty much how they’ve been coping with Kim Jong Il’s infamy for years (far more blood on his hands and he and he isn’t halfway around the globe like that kid).
Netizen Kim # 200:
“The only problem I have is too many headlines do keep saying “South Korean” to describe the gunman, as if he were a fresh-off-the-boat foreigner who just arrived recently. This guy is a pure kyopo, who majored in English Literature and has been living in the US since an early age. Not an international student on a student visa or anything like that. But I guess that’s a subtle distinction that only a kyopo would know.”
Here is one of the rare statements of Netizen Kim’s I can fully assent to…
And I agree with him, even though I am definitely not a Gyopo…
I guess it was inevitable that some would attempt to put an anti-American angle to killings in order to distance themselves from it (so, he was Korean? Get over it)…but this is just wrong…
http://news.msn.co.kr/face/v2/.....1200058000
“….the fact that the kid grew up in the US allows South Koreans to distance themselves psychologically (and geographically) from him.
I wonder…
Did this kid speak Korean?
The news reports all over the net right now are saying Cho was known by police and did spend a little time in a mental hospital back in 2005.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....ional/home
It is not just Koreans who were concerned of backlash:
http://www.jacl.org/Virginia_Tech.pdf:
Re: the order of his name, not only would the American-style name order be on all his legal documents, but it appears even on his now infamous writings simply as “Seung Cho”:
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/20.....uis-plays/
Baduk wrote:
“However, he had grown up in a small town in virginia. He suffered much racism. He was judged to be less than his peers.”
Baduk: Centerville, VA is not small town America. It is a suburb of Washington, DC! There are over 52,000 ethnic Koreans living here. In fact, white people are actually a minority in this area! There are few places in American more diverse than the Washin