Speak now or forever hold your peace. Or at least until next weekend.
Marmot’s Open Thread #4
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95 Comments
First!
Gov. Bill Richardson has pissed me off. Yeah, I suppose there is some irony in the name.
BTW Sewing, I see your site is still under construction. I think it’s an excellent resource; do you plan on keeping it up? I hope so.
I hope so, too. Your blog is sure to get a number of hits from Korean language enthusiasts here at the MH.
Thanks, Richardson and Sonagi. I had no idea anyone from the Marmot’s Hole lurked around there, and my only regular commenters gave up long ago. I’m a perfectionist, so once I start on something I won’t give up until I get it right…considering the scope of work involved, it was easier to never start seriously in the first place. Now that the two of you have brought it up, it encourages me to get back on track with it.
Heh. When I first started lurking around the K-blogosphere, I wondered if there was any relation between you (Richardson) and the governor of New Mexico, but I think your political differences pretty much rule that out. At least you have different first names. It’s better than Kim Dae Jung and Kim Dae-joong (the latter being Chosun Ilbo columnist who’s his polar opposite of the former).
“…who’s the polar opposite of the former).”
You might be interested in this Charles Robert Jenkins interview I recorded from Japanese TV last night:
http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=1567
“I had no idea anyone from the Marmot’s Hole lurked around there, “
Don’t you check your site data? It should include referrals (inclicks from other sites).
Is Jodi ever coming back? Is she is alive?
Site data? I’m going to sound really stupid, but how? I signed up once for some third-party thing to link to from my blog, but couldn’t get it to work, then gave up on the whole thing.
Go Canucks! Go!
On the Stanley Cup playoff games.
Yup. Wednesday’s game was the 6th longest in NHL history. Quadruple overtime. I won’t blame them if they’re a bit winded tonight!
I wonder who Robert’s rooting for?
Re #10…okay, I found some resources for site data…I’ll tinker around with them over the weekend.
Sewing,
You’re right – a completely different Richardson. I’ll always refer to him with “Gov.” or “Bill” in front.
As for your site, I’ve been checking monthly for… several months. A lot of good stuff there, and new posts would be great.
Korean politicians and University management are amazingly out of touch. Every day I read more fighting about the three “No” policy. Do they really think that Korean Universities are ranked so low because of the quality of their students?
Someone needs to light a fire under the asses of the professors. I heard the president of Korea University tried just that and the faculty had him canned. These leeches need to look in the mirror.
I love chicken.
YManchun, here is what you asked for regarding alleged korean atrocities in vietnam. a fantastic read!
From: jwest@law.harvard.edu (james west)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean Subject:
Re: Japanese POW Atrocities
Date: 8 Jun 1996 12:12:58 GMT
In article
,
Shinsuri wrote: >The book by Ahn was mentioned
only as an example of this being touched >upon in Korean society
nowadays.
A better novel than Ahn’s is “The Shadow of Arms” by Hwang
Sok-young (published in English translation by Cornell East
Asian Series in 1994). Hwang (now serving a prison term for
unauthorized visits to North Korea) was himself a marine in
Vietnam. His story is in some ways is sympathetic to the
Vietnamese and draws parallels between the partitions of Korea
and Vietnam. The narrative focuses mainly on the commercial side
of the Korean presence in Vietnam — black market operations, in
particular. Hwang includes in his book detailed accounts of
several different atrocities by U.S. troops including My Lai and
the incident of rape-murder of a Vietnamese girl by U.S.
soldiers which in the early 1980s was turned by Brian de Palma
into a movie starring Sean Penn and Michael J. Fox (I forget the
title). Hwang says nothing about atrocities by the Korean troops
in Vietnam, however, and when the English translation was
published, this conspicuous omission was noted by Paik Nak-Chung
of Seoul National University in his preface.
I have been present at business meetings where Korean veterans
and Vietnamese veterans have commented on the fact that, despite
the well known excesses of Korean troops in Vietnam, the
Vietnamese people no longer hold any grudges and are very eager
to develop cooperative commercial ties, as has already been done
in many respects.
Casey Lee argues that the Korean veterans of Vietnam haven’t
been sufficiently recognized, but I think based on my own
experience in Korea that most Koreans felt and feel sympathy for
the rank and file soldiers who served, especially for those who
were wounded or had their health destroyed by Agent Orange. On
the other hand, it is also true that veterans of Vietnam were at
the core of Hanahoe, and the crimes committed by Chun Doo Hwan
and his junta sometimes, most obviously in the Kwangju incident
but also in other activities, displayed the same kind of
terroristic brutality toward “enemies” (real or imagined) that
had been seen in Vietnam. The counterinsurgency attitudes that
led to such violent excesses did not begin in Vietnam — they
had been in evidence during the Korean War and before,
particularly during the counterinsurgency operations in Cheju
Island in 1949, in the course of which thousands died, including
more than a few noncombatants. The top commanders back then were
Japanese trained men like CHong Il-Kwon — who took pride in his
“annihilation” of the rebels at Yosu and Sunchon.
James West ——————————————————————————–
From: Casey Lee
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: Re: Japanese POW Atrocities
Date: 6 Jun 1996 23:47:31 GMT
jwest@law.harvard.edu (james west) wrote: Regarding the
>recent exchanges on Koreans in Vietnam, it’s a little absurd to
>be relying on a work of fiction by Ahn Jung-Hyo as a source
>concerning Korean atrocities in Vietnam. Here is an excerpt
>from a 25 page report done by Diane and Michael Jones for the
>American Friends Service Committee, following in situ
>investigations the Joneses carried out in Vietnam in 1972,
>mainly in Quang Ngai and Quang Nam provinces where most of the
>atrocities by Blue Dragon units of the ROK Marines took place:
Not all stories of brutality can be believed, as Vietnam in
1972 was still in the throes of war, with Vietcong controlling
much of the Vietnamese propaganda and many of those interviewees
were Viet Cong sympathizer. Some of the stories are probably
true especially regarding the Korean Marines of the Blue Dragon
detachment. There are evidences that suggest in 1966, when the
Koreans first arrived, there were rapes followed by massaccres
of civilians. With concerns of its conduct in Vietnam, Korean
military tried, convicted, and executed some of the perpetrators
and the officers who allowed rapes of civilians. Because Koreans
worked under their own command and not were under U.S. command,
and since Koreans weren’t good at cooperating with Vietnamese
forces, there were many unwarranted suspicions of what they were
doing in their tactical area of command.
From 1967 to 1970, there was a Japanese reporter named
Katsuichi Honda visited Vietnam and reported the war through the
Asian eyes. He wrote a book about it, it’s title is “Vietnam War
- A Report Through Asian Eyes”. He had anti-vietnam war views,
so therefore, not certainly partial to ROK in Vietnam. He
discovered that many of the stories concerning ROK atrocities
were rumours based on Vietnamese’s fear of the unknown ROK,
jealousy, and communist propaganda. He himself checked out the
stories by visiting the villages of where it was supposed to
happened but found that they never happened. He also discovered
that the farther the distance from the ROK tactical area of
operation, the reputation got worse.
Among the some 20,000 sq miles that ROK controlled, Honda by
interviewing locals found out that ROK’s were much more popular
than the Americans and government forces. ROK had total control
of their sector providing first rate security for the Vietnamese
at the same time helping the locals with rice plantation,
building of schools, temples, and houses. Americans on the other
hand, had a reputation among the Vietnamese as treating them
with disdain and were often beaten by the communists, although
they were good source of income for the Vietnamese. The conduct
and performance of S.Vietnamese government troops were even much
worse. Honda basically praised the ROK troops as by far the best
Allied troop in everyway including, the way they treated the
civilians and their extraordinary military performances.
As for the captured documents showing the Viet Cong fear of the
ROK, in 1966, a detachment of the U.S. Calvary Division in Bin
Dhin province captured a Viet Cong who carried a document
ordering all Viet Congs to avoid military contact with the
Koreans unless the victory was 100% certain. This was
corroborrated by a young British photographer Tim Page in the
NY. Times article and also his book, Vietnam.
One thing seems to be clear is that ROK were hard on the enemy
captured. Americans who worked with ROK’s often in their
testimonies mention Korean harsh treatment of POW’s. No wonder,
Korean Marine’s motto at that time was; be kind to the
Vietnamese, be merciless to the enemy. The harsh treatment of
POW’s had its share of detractions but one thing was clear,
there were no other Allied units that could match the number of
weapons captured and the level of security. The harsh treatment
of POW’s probably had much to do with the spread of fear than
anything else. Plus that ROK had done nothing to discourage the
fear, but anything, tried to increase the fear of ROK to take
advantage of the Vietnamese fear. The fear in turn lead to
unsubstantiated stories and rumours of ROK atrocities.
To sum it up, I am not denying that ROK troops didn’t commit
atrocities. But so did the Americans(My Lai and countless
others), and the Vietnamese themselves both north and south. But
I’m saying that ROK troops weren’t anymore brutal toward the
civilians than the othere Allied troops. They should not be
singled out. The Americans, despite their share of atrocities,
in U.S, are treated with respect and people understand that the
Vietnam War was an unusually brutual war, with no sides on the
morally correct.
The Korean veterans, on the other hand suffer terribly from
lack of apathy, or general down right contempt from their
countrymen. Many and their children suffer from the affects of
Agent Orange yet unlike the American and Australian veterans who
were compensated by U.S. government, are left to die with
terrible suffering. Now that’s injustice for men who fought for
their country’s future and who had a tremendous hand in
modernizing Korea. Without them, Korean development would at
least be 10 -15 years behind. I think it’s high time for Koreans
stop painting these men as monsters and recognize these men for
their heroism, just like the Americans did with their veterans
despite some of their faults.
P.S. Read some of the books by American soldiers and reporters
who were there and saw what the Koreans did: (sorry, can’t
recall all the authors)
-Allied Participation In Vietnam War (General P. Larsen - 1975)
-Vietnam Above Tree Top
-Vietnam War A Report Through Asian Eyes (Katsuichi Honda -
1972)
-Vietnam War Photographs (Tim Page - 1988)
——————————————————————————–
From: zlee@wwa.com (Z Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean
Subject: Re: Japanese POW Atrocities
Date: 9 Jun 1996 23:37:22 GMT
In article , Casey Lee
wrote:
>jwest@law.harvard.edu (james west) wrote:
>>
>>Regarding the recent exchanges on Koreans in Vietnam, it’s a little
>>absurd to be relying on a work of fiction by Ahn Jung-Hyo as a
>>source concerning Korean atrocities in Vietnam. Here is an excerpt
>>from a 25 page report done by Diane and Michael Jones for the
>>American Friends Service Committee, following
>>in situ investigations the Joneses carried out in Vietnam in 1972,
>>mainly in Quang Ngai and Quang Nam provinces where most of the
>>atrocities by Blue Dragon units of the ROK Marines took place:
>>
>Not all stories of brutality can be believed, as Vietnam in 1972 was
>still in the throes of war, with Vietcong controlling much of the
>Vietnamese propaganda and many of those interviewees were Viet Cong
>sympathizer. Some of the stories are probably true especially
>regarding the Korean Marines of the Blue Dragon detachment. There are
>evidences that suggest in 1966, when the Koreans first arrived, there
>were rapes followed by massaccres of civilians. With concerns of its
>conduct in Vietnam, Korean military tried, convicted, and executed
>some of the perpetrators and the officers who allowed rapes of
>civilians. Because Koreans worked under their own command and not
>were under U.S. command, and since Koreans weren’t good at
>cooperating with Vietnamese forces, there were many unwarranted
>suspicions of what they were doing in their tactical area of command.
>From 1967 to 1970, there was a Japanese reporter named Katsuichi
>Honda visited Vietnam and reported the war through the Asian eyes. He
>wrote a book about it, it’s title is “Vietnam War - A Report Through
>Asian Eyes”. He had anti-vietnam war views, so therefore, not
>certainly partial to ROK in Vietnam. He discovered that many of the
>stories concerning ROK atrocities were rumours based on Vietnamese’s
>fear of the unknown ROK, jealousy, and communist propaganda.
In early September 1970, 15 orphans living in an orphanage run by
Buddhist monks were murdered and injured by Viet Cong in the ARVN
I Corps area.
After the Vietnamese newspapers reported that the massacre had been
committed by Vietnamese soldiers, 7 assemblymen arrived in City of
Hoi An to investigate the incident on September 20.
A woman tipped the assemblymen that Korean soldiers slaughtered
over 200 civilians in the Village of Binh Doung, an area
considered under the control of the communists since September
of 1964. The village was being used by Viet Cong as a base for
launching attacks on 6 villages nearby and was a threat to the
City of Hoi An.
The ROK Marine Corps’ 2nd(Chung-ryong) Brigade was conducting
an operation called Hwang-Ryong Che 7-ho Chagjon
(from 9/16/70 to 9/20/70) to pacify Binh Doung. There was an
air strike and artillery attack prior to the Marines moving in to
the village. Before the operation, there was a broadcast telling
the villagers to evacuate.
Seven enemies were killed and grenades were captured including
stick grenades.
The assemblymen made little effort to verify the woman’s claim.
After returing to Da Nang, on September 22, they announced to
media that ROK Marines massacred over 200 civilians during the
operation. ARVN I Corps Command and ROK Forces Vietnam Field
Command launched separate investigations immediately.
The Korean investigation team identified the units participated
in that operation, interviewed the soldiers, and went to the
village to investigate the alleged massacre thoroughly.
On September 27, the Korean command released its report to the
press and publicly criticized the Vietnamese newspapers for
misinforming the public in a special statement issued on that
same day.
Three days later, the commander of ARVN I Corps held a news
conference and told the whole world that they couldn’t find
any evidence for the alleged massacre. The number of casualties
in Binh Doung area on that day turned out to be thirty.
He expalained to the press corps how the committe was formed,
how they conducted the investigation, and what they found.
In a following Q&A session, he told the reportes that ARVN I
Corps Command would assist them fully if they wanted to do
their own field investigation.
Copies of the report were forwarded to the RVNAF, defense
minister, and president.
This document proves that allegations of mass murders of
Vietnamese civilians in ROK forces sectors did not go unnoticed
by the Vietnamese government(Kukbang-Kunsa Yonguso has a copy
of the report in its archive).
In the end, the Vietnamese newspapers and foreign press
acknowledged that they had given false reports on that incident
to the public
Maddlew, what is the “three no” policy?
Interesting stuff Pawi.
The three no policy disallows Universities from administering their own tests, ranking high schools or admitting students due to donation. The Universities big beef is with the no to administering their own tests.
I still don’t see how that will get them ranked higher in the Times rankings which seems to be their biggest concern lately. Yet the calibre of student that is attending their schools is a triviality. I think they ought to start worrying more about the education they are dishing out. Many of the best students are going abroad because they know the environment for learning is better there. Few from outside Korea are coming here for a degree.
“Many of the best students are going abroad because they know the environment for learning is better there. Few from outside Korea are coming here for a degree.”
Not sure that this is a fair comparison Maddlew. Many of the korean students are going abroad, because of the English language factor in terms of future employment opportunities, not necessarily because they think the education will be better. Other because of avoiding military service and hoping not to have to return. Still other a combination because they think this will give them better opportunities to emigrate and live and work in what they hope and believe is a better environment. Conversly, few students are likely to come to kore to study, not because of the quality of education, but because of the lack of courses taught in any language other than korean.
I for example considered coming here some years ago as a student but was unable to find any suitable courses in english.
Richardson, thanks for the scoop on Gov. Richardson–he just bottomed out the ethics scale for me…funny though that he’s a Democrat trying to take credit for a Bush administration initiative.
Does anyone in Seoul have a contact for marijuana?
newtonkabiddles@gmail.com
Newton, here you go: cnpa100@npa.go.kr
Ask for “Podori”
RE: debate between Maddlew and Arghaeri
You’re both probably right. One of my Yonsei students turned down an early offer of admission to the University of British Columbia because she wanted to reconnect with Korea after being raised overseas. She told me she regretted that decision because she was very dissatisfied with the quality of education she was receiving. Many other freshmen expressed strong disappointment or disillusionment with the university.
About 70% of Yonsei’s faculty hold foreign PhDs. For Korean students who aspire to become professors, the message is clear: go overseas first before you come back and try to grab the brass ring.
English is important, but it isn’t the only attraction for Koreans educating their children overseas. Many of my former Korean K-12 students and their parents expressed to me that they preferred American-style education to schools back home. They liked the emphasis on interaction and active participation. They liked having scheduling choices in secondary school. They liked the freedom to participate in extracurricular clubs and activities. They liked making friends with others from different backgrounds. The kids were happier, the parents saw that, so they were happier, too.
All good points, Sonagi. I believe a bigger concern, however, is the fact that tenured professors have no need to produce. They are in the club and they have no fear of losing their positions. The only innovation is coming from self-motivated staff.
Most University students are laid back and seem to have few academic demands put on them. They work their butts off to get in and then stick it on cruise control.
There is also a noticeable lack of critical thinking. Students who remain in Korea are simply vessels awaiting the contents of an education to be poured into them. There is seldom an ebb and flow, no feedback from the students. Most classes involve a lecturer droning continually with seldom a single question.
My wife was a student at Yonsei and I was able to sit in a few times. I believe it is supposed to be one of the better institutions here. Hell, my classes at San Diego State were more lively by quite a margin. Most people consider California State schools to be the low ebb of the academic pool in the States. I feel like I got a good education but “it weren’t no Hawvawd”.
I understand that Confusionist influences bring about a diffent dynamic between teacher and student, but they should at least be expressing some opinion on paper. That was seldom demanded of my wife. She was basically asked to merely regurgitate.
I see that G. Bevers has a job translating for the local rag here in Seoul. I have to say I am impressed he landed on his feet. I would be the first to think he would be off chasing windmills in another berg.
Maddlew wrote:
“I believe a bigger concern, however, is the fact that tenured professors have no need to produce. They are in the club and they have no fear of losing their positions. The only innovation is coming from self-motivated staff.
That is more true for older profs than younger ones. At Yonsei, younger faculty really are trying to bring up the quality of education to the level of the foreign universities from which they graduated. Yonsei’s University College is modeled after similar colleges for underclassmen in many American universities. While I was there, Yonsei was also in the process of implementing stricter faculty evalution policies with higher expectations for professors.
“Most University students are laid back and seem to have few academic demands put on them. They work their butts off to get in and then stick it on cruise control.”
That’s not true anymore, at least at Yonsei. Even our freshmen don’t get a break as they no longer enter academic departments but rather the colleges of science, social science, humanities, etc. and compete against each other to get into highly desired majors. Those with the highest grades get their first choice. My freshmen complained that they were tired after three grueling years of high school and hated getting back on the treadmill to earn high grades in order to get into their desired departments. They don’t slack once they get in, either. My upperclassmen students worried about finding good jobs after graduation. They were motivated and worked very hard. Yonsei has a curve-style grading scale, so students really do compete against each other for grades.
I’m glad to hear that, Sonagi. A University shouldn’t just simulate the real world but be a part of the community, society, an integral part of the world. If it provides an atmosphere of inovation and imagination, not just for the staff but for those who pay, the quality students will not only come but be excited to do so.
Butt loads coming in periodically. Hang out at Incheon Airport and look for the funny walkin’ guys.
I’ve been thinking a lot about zoos. Not public ones. One that would fit in my study. Between my computer and the bookcases. Stack ‘em. I’m watching Big Secret on TV. This guy owns a boa constrictor, a bat, a porcupine, a skunk (!?), and a kangaroo (!!??). They live in his 20 pyoung apartment with his wife and kids. The wife ain’t pleased. “Shut yer trap and cook him some soondubu.” This I shout at my TV. He’s got a zoo to run. He keeps them in tiny cages. Each maybe large enough for a cat. Cozy.
Where can I buy a kangaroo? It fits pretty well in a cat cage. As long as it ain’t hoppin’. What do kangaroos eat? Or a panda. Yeah, I’d like a panda. Put it on a leash and take it to the park. Train it to play frisbee. Pick up chicks.
Maddlew, thanks for the info and the discussion it precipitated. My wife and I were seriously planning to move to Korea a few years back, and I was looking at the science and technology universities, as my specialization is software engineering. There is some good stuff coming out of those kinds of schools, at least—Naver, for example, came out of research at KAIST (specifically, the idea of integrated, multimedia search results).
“Confusionist influences” (#25) - this typo appears a lot (not trying to single you out, Maddlew), and it is one of my favourite ones.
Yeah, typos. You’ll see that from Cal State grads.
Powi wrote “Now that’s injustice for men who fought for their country’s future and who had a tremendous hand in modernizing Korea. Without them, Korean development would at least be 10 -15 years behind.”
I will go a step further. Without VietNam, there would have been no Miracle in Han River. VietNam was a cash cow. All soldiers were paid the same as the US counterpart and Uncle Park took a hugh chunk of that money. Pres. Park being somewhat of a honest guy did not eat up the money the way Marcos did. Instead, he spent the money to develop infrastructure of Korea. He built factories to produce steel and fertilizer.
You must respect Pres. Park for doing this. He was a dictator but a good dictator. I even respect Pres. Rhee (even for killing KimGu) and Pres.Chun(maintaining the national security after Park’s assaination).
All Korean presidents have been good except the recent pro-North duo.
This is why I believe Korea should go into Iraq in a big way. Set up infrastructure of Iraq, do construction in oil fields, and even get involved in real estate, banking and IT business.
Iraqis do not like Americans but they will love Korean businessmen.
Rho should put aside Commies’ attempt to pull Korean troops out of Iraq. He should increase Korean presence in that country.
And, soon join in on Iran invasion.
they might like Koreans who report on things like this, http://www.ohmynews.com/articl.....ode=404353
but they’ll waste you with a AK-47 once they find out you’re a Christian, Mr. Baduk. You don’t remember Mr. Kim Sun Il? Or the Korean Christians who entered Iraq via Israel and became gunpoint hostages?
tipping them off on a Korean-US Iran invasion will be nice move, too. Even the Sunnis might turn a little uncomfortable. So far, only the Kurds have been the brightest, most reasonable folk, who have not been caught in this proxy Cold War between Syria and Iran, both of whom deserve to get nuked.
Syria’s hiding Husseins’ weapons. The unethical leader of Syria is a world terrorist honcho and the UK was dumb enough to train him as an Ophthalmologist. Probably responsible for more UK people dead than he ever saved.
Iran wants a nuke. To shoot it at Israel.
The old Axis of evil was North Korea, Iran, and Iraq. Correctly so.
Now it is North Korea, Iran, and Syria.
You saw the war in Lebannon. You don’t think Syria was just watching, do you?
So far the Syrians destroyed lives in Lebannon and Iraq. These guys are war criminals.
Notice North Korea has asked for its own money back but failed to meet the nuke deal dead line.
That’s their stupidity. What did they gain? Macao money that was theirs to start with and some South Korean rice. No oil, nothing else.
Stupid idiots.
Dismantle the Yong Byon nuke facility already.
Feed those starving, miserable Koreans.
by the way, anyone know if Kimsoft is doing well health wise?
He hasn’t been updating his site for months.
I hope it’s due to his work, not due to his health.
At one point, it was down and non operational for a couple weeks and it came back up again. Which is a good sign.
wjk, You like Kimsoft (Lee Wha-rang)? He seems to be the polar opposite of our Baduk. Kimsoft is quite old, isn’t he?
yeah, I like Baduk and Kimsoft. Can’t explain to justify it.
Yeah, Kimsoft is quite old. It’s a shame there isn’t a publisher to print his work.
He ought to send his stuff to the publisher that published James Frey.
I have it on authority that gentleman behind Kimsoft has parted with the present life.
His site fell off the internet entirely for a while as a result. I believe it was by popular demand that someone close to him (family had to have been involved at some level) was encouraged to get it back up and running again.
Someone else who lurks here from time to time knows more about this than I. Maybe s/he’ll respond.
The man behind Kimsoft was a great man. May he rest in peace. Thank you for the information.
http://news.chosun.com/site/da.....00107.html
good read
you know, i always like to point out the hypocrisy of your average expat and here’s one good example:
over at ‘frog in the well’ the expat who runs the place wrote a piece on how koreans weren’t invaded that much and that their history is no more tragic than others. in other words, koreans need to shut up because their history wasn’t all that horrible. that’s a standard line from your average expat but here’s what he says when he’s having a bad day:
‘Never ceases to amaze me. Korea’s been walked all over through it’s history. BIG FREAKING DEAL. Get over it. There are so many things wrong with Korea these days, but they refuse to believe it. Newsflash: the world doesn’t center around Korea, and never will. Hate to go on a near-mindless tirade here, but I had one of those days where I can’t stand this country. This article didn’t help.’ mooboo from the thread about hollywood and it’s racists stereotypes about koreans.
see what i mean?
Hey, obey the ROK law.
2nd, you might place this excellent website under watch from ROK police, due to your irresponsible crave for illegal drugs.
Remember, you can’t drink, smoke, have sex all you want, but don’t do drugs.
You’ll be in jail and asking for a lawyer.
sorry, I didn’t get Michael’s joke at first. That was a good one.
can
South Koreans are “enraged” that the TOEFL test announced on its earlier in the day on its Web site that Japanese applicants would be able to register for its’ Internet-based exam in July, while asking those in Korea to revisit the site later for further notice.
http://english.yna.co.kr/Engne.....339E4.html
Wait until later? raaaaagggee.
pawikirogi -
You really need to stop with comments like “the hypocrisy of your average expat.” And kindly don’t suggest to me that “expat” is not an ethnic clssification. It isn’t an ethnicity, of course, but if “expat” isn’t a classification based on ethnicity then neither is “people of color.” “The hypocrisy of your average person of color” would be inappropriate, and so is your comment. Please take what people say at face value and not at the value of their faces.
If many a person from France said his country had been invaded 900 times one would wonder, especially if it appeared some Frenchmen were trying to round upwards in a big way and then draw a lot of significance from the number. Some might laugh - and they’re free to do so, but at the very least anyone serious about understanding French society would need to know about the phenomenon. All nations and cultures are worthy of participation (by immigrants) and observation (by expats, and the rest of the world), for many reasons and by people of many different motives. Korea is no less deserving of respect, and I for one would never insult Korea’s intelligence by pretending I believe in fan death, or that people don’t believe in it. I would never go running around saying, “Hey world, Korea is stupid for believing in fan death,” but any serious discussion by persons (of all ethnicities) who understand Korea well or desire to would have to include discussion of some embarrassing things. Every country, without exception, has such things and each has only itself to blame. (FWIW, the Frog in a Well site is a serious Korea-related site by serious people.)
In the eighties the number of “invasions” (침략) I heard about always numbered in the thousands. Usually 3,000+. I just searched around and the numbers I see range between about 500 and 900ish invasions. I don’t doubt that there were many hundreds of little raids and sword battles by pirates from Japan and such, but the key point here is that at one time in Korea, during much of the 20th century up until say the 90’s, it was fashionable to believe Korean Culture Is Defined By Han, that woe-is-me-kind-of-Han that required Korea make itself out to be even more of a victim than it really was. What’s silly about this is that Korea should not have to desperately count as high as possible. It was a victim and doesn’t need to exaggerate about it. Knowing what you already know about Korean history, would you think it got off easy if the number were 50 instead of 900? I wouldn’t, so I don’t feel the need to look for ways to come up with a bigger number.
Fortunately this “Korean Culture = Han” ideology has been dying out since the late 90’s, but it’s still fashionable in some quarters. In summer of last year I met the author of _Taebaek Sanmaek_, Jo Jeongnae. I was with a group of ethnic Koreans from China, and he proceeded to lecture to us about the importance of minjok. Imagine that, lecturing Joseonjok about minjok. He talked about a good many things in the course of two hours, but half of it was a long lecture about how as the result of his research he has concluded that more Koreans died under the Japanese than Jews died under the Germans.
That’s nonsense, of course, however many Koreans did die at the hands of the Japanese, but even that is not the point. One could write it off as just wrong as far as the calculations are concerned, but I find his claim itself the most telling of all. He spoke with passion, and the research he put into it had to be the result of passion, and like I say he spent a good deal of time explaining his rationale behind his numbers. Clearly he has a profound need to be able to say more Koreans died than Jews. It was as if he thinks if five less Koreans died than Jews then that would mean Korea was having a party under the Japanese. What is it about this author who writes about nothing but Minjok with a capital M that he feels the need to make such a claim? It was embarrassing to have to listen to and it made me angry that he would think we were so stupid and that Korea’s history depended on such calculations. Fortunately no one takes Jo’s claims very seriously. As is often the case when a respected individual in Korea makes outlandish statements, it has mostly been ignored, perhaps deliberately. But he has said the same things elsewhere, so go internet search your heart out.
IMHO an intimate understanding of post-war Korean social discourse would be impossible without some familiarity with the ideology of Han and the places it has led people. My motive for saying this is none of your business. Can you prove me wrong or are you going to talk about my ethnicity? If you agree with me but don’t like it coming from one of Korea’s ethnic minorities, do not you mean to say Korea isn’t a real country like France?
WJK–
The funny thing is, nulji is the biggest hypocrite around. Par for the course.
The Sheriff has spoken.
I can’t make up my mind which post I liked better -Oranckay’s, or Lirelou’s latest brilliant military history brief over on the Korean War massacres thread.
It’s disappointing that so few Koreans make comments here, and that two of them willfully misinterpret what people say for their own agenda, cannot discuss anything logically, and have almost nothing of substance to add. They’re totally unlike the Korean people I know, my friends and others, and more like cartoon versions of Koreans that just reinforce stereotypes.
Moving on…here’s a great blog on Korean food:
http://www.mykoreankitchen.com/
are you instructing this ‘kyopo’ not to use the word ‘expat?’ were you writing to me as ‘The Sheriff’ who has spoken?
‘The funny thing is, nulji is the biggest hypocrite around. Par for the course.’ dogbert
‘It’s disappointing that so few Koreans make comments here, and that two of them willfully misinterpret what people say for their own agenda, cannot discuss anything logically, and have almost nothing of substance to add. They’re totally unlike the Korean people I know, my friends and others, and more like cartoon versions of Koreans that just reinforce stereotypes.’ michael
I generally don’t try to be both comment sheriff and participant in the same thread. But when I’m back to being full moderator mode in some other post, “the hypocrisy of your average expat” and “the hypocrisy of your average person of color” and “the hypocrisy of your average gyopo” will not be tolerated. We are implementing a policy in which no further references to fellow commenters’ ethnicities are permitted if it in any way is meant to challenge someone’s ability, expertise, right, or authority to make comment. For the time being, all welcome to discuss race if it can be done in an academic tone. So in the future, if (for example) Frog in a Well says something you don’t like and you want to mention it here, take issue with what was actually said. “Please take what people say at face value and not at the value of their faces.”
On a personal note, I think maybe the problem may be that one of us thinks Korea is a Third World mess and should be treated especially nicely on the playground because it’s small, while the other of us thinks it can play with the big boys as an advanced nation, member of the OECD, and as a country like France and the USA. It’s still adjusting to that for sure, and even USA and France have Third Wordly problems sometimes, but Korea already looks down on the countries that it imports labor from so it’s pretty much part of the club now.
Not related to Korea, but here’s an article on tensions between Chinese-American and Mongolian-American kids in Oakland:
http://www.mercurynews.com/new.....ck_check=1
though i think all these new rules you’re making are a bit ridiculous, as long as you apply these standards to all. but i’m thinking you’re still going to allow things like ‘koreans are liars, koreans are whores, ect while you won’t allow me to talk aboutm expats as a group. address what people say? really?
‘The funny thing is, nulji is the biggest hypocrite around. Par for the course.’ dogbert
‘It’s disappointing that so few Koreans make comments here, and that two of them willfully misinterpret what people say for their own agenda, cannot discuss anything logically, and have almost nothing of substance to add. They’re totally unlike the Korean people I know, my friends and others, and more like cartoon versions of Koreans that just reinforce…’ michael
why aren’t you telling them that? your personel feelings for me getting in the way?
btw, sheriff, when you going to get around to telling types like dogbert and shakee that ‘kyopo’ is no longer allowed? will you write long post for them too?
don’t ever talk down to me.
Random thought: Is there anything more pathetic than Internet “tough talk”?
I broke my self-imposed rule not to respend to trolls who address my comments, mea culpa Mssrs. Sheriff and Marmot, I’ll not let it happen again.
I really don’t get the “bad kyopo” stuff on here either, we’re all the same, and differences aside, I wish everyone well.
Iceberg, on another board somebody called that being an “e-badass”
As I’ve said, the thoughtless mass introduction of unassimilable population groups into the U.S. is only exacerbating our racial tensions and confounding any efforts and progress toward solving them. We’re paying the price now.
Just because one magical kyopo puts a fatwa on the word doesn’t mean we infidels have to follow it.
You have to earn respect to get respect. A good start for you would be for you to stop talking down to and insulting others. I am truly surprised this is not obvious to you.
Anyone care to comment on the Columbine redux over at Va. Tech that happened this morning? I thought after 9-11, Americans forswore this kind of senselessness and madness. Terrible tragedy.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/.....index.html
“Local television quoted witnesses as saying the gunman was a young Asian man, but little else was known about the shooter, including whether or not he was a student.”
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_.....920.49/afp
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V....._shootings
Our insane gun culture strikes again.
How can you blame our “gun culture” when reports say the gunman had only recently arrived in the U.S. on a student visa?
Marmot and Sheriff Oranckay,
The weekend is over. It would be a good idea to close this thread before the comments slide further into ugliness.
What, he brought the gun with him from China? If the news is correct and he’s a student here on a visa it underlines the too-easy availability of guns in the U.S.
I don’t think it’s legal for F-1 student visa’s to get a handgun. Have you seen Borat?
Borat couldn’t buy a gun.
I base it on that.
Foreigners can’t get guns legally.
It was a F-1 student visa who bombed the WTC towers.
Now, it’s a F-1 student visa who killed 32 with a handgun and injured 20ish.
They are usually from select countries, which I hear that made Ashcroft’s list. John Ashcroft did a good job. He should still be doing his old job.
FYI, the worst spree killing (also involving firearms) took place in Korea:
“But it’s not just North America where the madness takes hold.
The worst such spree killing took place in 1982 in Korea. When police officer Woo Bum-Kom had a fight with his girlfriend, he got drunk, went to his headquarters, raided the armoury and began knocking at houses.
When those who answered saw a cop on their stoop, they opened the door. That was their final mistake.
The killer would shoot anyone he saw or detonate a grenade to take out an entire family. He’d then move on to the next house, working his way through five separate villages in an eight-hour spree.
He eventually grabbed three people and blew them and himself up, as the terrible siege finally ended.
In all, an incredible 57 people lost their lives in the rampage, the worst spree killing in recorded history.”
http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_9859.aspx
Perhaps the murderer was this guy:
http://wanusmaximus.livejournal.com/
“Perhaps the murderer was this guy:
http://wanusmaximus.livejournal.com/”
I am following it on my site. I have his facebook page and everything. I can confirm he is a student at Virginia Tech. http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=593
Damn, that’s a wild story Dogbert, I hadn’t heard that one before.
Still, the U.S. could do far more to curtail gun violence, as I’m sure you know.
I agree that violence in the U.S. is a terrible plague. What do you propose?
It’s not just a wild story but an old one. America has seen countless shooting rampages in schools, shopping malls, restaurants, and offices in the 25-year period since that Korean police officer went postal.
To wit, Dogert: Would you feel safer if Korea liberalized its gun laws to match prevailing laws in the fifty states?
Shakuhachi, your fingering of an alleged perp based on nothing more than your own wild speculations, an unconfirmed rumor and obviously your own racism at work is nothing short of highly irresponsible, if not hysterical.
I suggest you take down your heinous and racist allegations from your website. Better yet, why don’t you just sit this one out and let the professionals sort the facts out. You have proven yourself to be completely incapable of determining fact from fiction or making any reasonable conclusion by yourself.
That is quite a silly question.
The question is not whether Korea’s firearm laws are good for public safety — obviously on the whole they are.
The question is what can be done now in the U.S.?
I hear a lot of bleating about “gun violence”, but no concrete solutions suggested.
The reason I brought up the Korean counter-example is the question of “culture”. I do not think there is a “culture of gun violence” as much as there is a “culture of violence”. The Korean example is meant to illustrate that (1) this is not solely a U.S. phenomenon, but exists elsewhere; and (2) that a disturbed individual who is motivated enough will find the means to wreak havoc.
I guess what I’m saying is that in cases like this, I place more blame on the individual than I do on the society.
For example, let’s say that the killer here really is a foreigner who did not grow up in the U.S. and was not influenced by our supposed “gun society”. Yes, you can argue that it was easier for him to buy a gun in the U.S. than it would have been in his own country, perhaps, but his violent impulses obviously existed before.
Need I remind you you’re the one who invited comment?
Dogbert, I’d propose everything from small technical things like sensor or fingerprint trigger-lock guns to better regulation of gun shows. Since the federal gov’t is useless on the matter local gov’ts should cooperate more with each other. Do something as opposed to nothing.
Also, U.S. society needs to get over its fetishization of guns and violence, but that’s so deep rooted I don’t realistically see it happening.
shaku, you really love linking to pics and names of real people don’t you?
Well, it seems like this time the guy isn’t him.
What are you gonna do?
You and the other guy who linked to him?
Is that that the way you operate?
While you hide head between your ass and let guys claim that you’re handsome?
#72:
Dogbertt, what manner of sleuthery did you employ to determine your perp? Hell yeah, I can do the same thing too — I was lookin’ through a few myspace pages, and voila! Here’s my perp:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi.....tplush.JPG
Q.E.D!
“Shakuhachi, your fingering of an alleged perp based on nothing more than your own wild speculations, an unconfirmed rumor and obviously your own racism at work is nothing short of highly irresponsible, if not hysterical.
I suggest you take down your heinous and racist allegations from your website. Better yet, why don’t you just sit this one out and let the professionals sort the facts out. You have proven yourself to be completely incapable of determining fact from fiction or making any reasonable conclusion by yourself.”
Wait, why is it racist?
Bad time for that Wanusmaximus facebook guy to be posing with guns while Asian.
Wanusmaximus talks to the press:
“It was five for five. I was Asian, I lived in (the dorm), I go to V Tech, I recently broke up with my girlfriend and I collect guns,・Chiang, who initially contacted ABC affiliate KNXV.”
‘Just because one magical kyopo puts a fatwa on the word doesn’t mean we infidels have to follow it.’ dogbert
well, sonn, you’ll have to. didn’t you see the sheriff inform the audience that words like ‘expat’ and ‘kyopo’ will soon be banned?
before you know it, this blog will be as interesting as a commnunist newspaper.
‘As I’ve said, the thoughtless mass introduction of unassimilable population groups into the U.S. is only exacerbating our racial tensions and confounding any efforts and progress toward solving them. We’re paying the price now.’
unassimilable? could you tell us which groups you think can be assimilated into american society? i’d love to hear your response even though i know you won’t answer.
lastly, let me tell you something as a fellow american: i grew up in an america that was almost all white. i prefer to keep it that way, but you know what i realized just a couple days ago, dogbert? that’s just a pipe dream. america ain’t going to stay white for much longer. soon, you will be just another member of just another group. it’s too late. it’s going to happen. but might i soothe your soul by saying that korea too will suffer the same fate?
get used to it, dogbert; it ain’t going to change in your lifetime.
This is the second time I’ve read something similar you’ve written.
No sarcasm intended, but why do you feel that way?
And, I will answer your question. I cannot say that any group is entirely unassimilable into the U.S., but I do believe that rates of assimilation vary widely. Those groups would be ones having an inordinate amount of ethnic/racial/cultural pride, those who have the choice of residing in nearly monocultural enclaves in the U.S., and those who simply view their stay in the U.S. as a way to make money, have their children avoid military service back home, or other reason that makes their residence in the U.S. a matter of convenience above all.
“Michael Jackson is in discussions about creating a 50-foot robotic replica of himself to roam the Las Vegas desert, according to reports.”
http://music.yahoo.com/read/news/41620594
Tee-hee!
anyone care to conjecture on what status Jun Doo Hwan’s 2nd son is in the Los Angeles area with his former tv star/movie star wife and the new baby girl between them, nesting in southern California in a well to do suburban LA neighborhood?
Hmm. Student? Permanent resident? US citizen?
How? Why? What?
@ Dogbert:
Unfortunately, there isn’t much we can do about our gun problem because
1) the Second Amendment has been grossly misinterpreted for a long time
2) there are so many guns everywhere
Nevertheless, tighter restrictions on who can own what kind and how many would certainly not make America less safe. The problem is political. Anytime the government attempts to put any kind of restriction, the NRA and gun lovers across America scream and throw money at gun law opponents while reciting cutesy quotes about people killing people (with guns!) and peeling guns from cold, dead hands. You may argue about whether America has a gun culture, but clearly there is a strong mindset that gun control laws are “unAmerican.”
I agree that someone bent on murder is going to find the means, but the difference between the US and countries that have long had strict gun control laws is the means available.
Why yes, H. Kim, “Americans” have forsworn it.
Unfortunately, murderous immigrants such as Chou Vang and Sung Hi Cho have not.
Guess your pitiful attempt at a dig against white Americans backfired, eh?
Maybe now the insidious myth of the “model minority” will be tossed in the garbage where it belongs.
Well over 400 comments on one of the V-Tech threads alone…surely that’s a Marmot’s Hole record?
Anyhow, it’s good to see some of the comments on some of the longer V-Tech threads get weeded out, but a suggestion for Oranckay:
How about replacing each long “Comment deleted because…” boilerplate entry with just a short sentence and a link to an updated post, setting out the evolved moderation policy that has emerged?
As things are, the “deleted” comments seem longer than the non-deleted comments, so it’s harder to keep track of the dialogue than if the deleted comments were deleted entirely, or just replaced by short sentences.
Sewing wrote:
“How about replacing each long “Comment deleted because…” boilerplate entry with just a short sentence and a link to an updated post, setting out the evolved moderation policy that has emerged?”
Yes, that has been suggested by several commenters. We all know the rules by now even if not all of us follow them all the time. I don’t even think a reason needs to be given. Just delete it and be done with it.