Blogosphere vitriol is apparently a problem [SFGate], and in the NYT, Brad Stone [personal blog] reports that some “big bloggers” are calling for civil rules of engagement (HT to DPRK Studies). This is an issue we’ve attempted to deal with [Marmot's Hole], although some are apparently still dissatisfied [Have a Nice Day in Seoul!] with the discourse here.
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37 Comments
Frankly I’m surprised the Korean gov’t hasn’t announced something like this:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap.....oggers.php
Nice to see the comment moderation is going swimmingly.
dogbertt—The Oranckay is not a robot. He requires sleep.
> dogbertt—The Oranckay is not a robot. He requires sleep.
Niiice. Never let on the truth about the Oranckay. Never even think the truth about the Oranckay. You can’t stop him. He’s a remorseless moderating machine.
Don’t you have admin power of your own site and an ability to tell what is beyond the pale and what isn’t, Robert?
And Schroepfer sleeps during the day? What is he, a vampire?
Then again, I suppose Gen. Sec. Ban is probably asleep right now, so the mess will be cleaned up before he hits this site first thing tomorrow morning.
Hey, New York Times…
The recent behavior of R.Elgin — deleting comments that called him on HIS fuck-up and foul manners — discredits this site’s policies and underscores the whole problem with the concept of net nannyism.
Wrong Slim.
When people are off-topic and cross the line of just criticism and engage in personal attacks, then they get deleted. I never act rudely towards anyone nor use foul language since one can never tell just who might be reading my commentary. I did imply that *some* people that deliberately posting on my threads are without a sense of humor and make snide, off-topic comments. I treat people they way I would want to be treated. If they act badly, I cut them off.
I wasn’t even aware that R.Elgin was deleting comments. Would help to know who and what got deleted.
What was comment #20 (I think) by dltan (or something like that) on the “Freedom is not free” thread was deleted. That comment needed to be policed, but the better method is to line out, edit, or delete the text (as Oranckay did), since following comments replied to specific comment numbers, but the numbers had changed due to the deleted comment.
Good point.
Guys, this is what “dltn” posted, which I deleted as being inflamatory, off-topic and very derogatory:
The reasons why this was deleted are very obvious. If Robert wants me to do a
“strike out”, or a note to that effect, please let me know.Hi, Richardson and all.
There are various reasons (that aren’t entirely worked out yet) as to why I’ve deleted comments completely and done other actions elsewhere. (I may not be the only one doing deletions right now, we’re trying to figure that out.)
Using
strikethroughor XXXXXX to “delete” a comment makes it obvious that moderation is happening and while that may be okay sometimes if there’s a thread that gets out of hand in a matter of a couple hours and then needs to be cleaned up, what you then have looks like a bloodbath. (It might also make people angrier at being deleted, which is fine if it has to happen, but if they can be less angry and not take it as personally, that’s always good.) Sometimes it may be good to do make the action visible to all just to make a point, other times it may be better for all to be able to pretend nothing ever happened.Richardson is right about comment numbers. I’m not sure what (if anything) is best on that. Deleting a comment by making it go “poof” still keeps it visible in admin mode, which means that it can be reinstated if poofed by mistake or can be read later by an admin if need be, for reference. Exing things out while keeping the comment’s place in a thread means no one is ever going to able to know what was said. And again, IMHO having comments disappear from the thread completely is probably better for the overall atmosphere. Not sure….
And to Mr. R. Elgin - it was I who deleted that one. They must be talking about something else. Maybe it’s what Richardson is referring to, but probably not what Slim is talking about (and I’m not sure what that is).
dlatn,
None of my comments in that thread were deleted.
Yours was right to be, and I’d ban you from my site.
“oranckay” you deleted *that* comment? Man, I thought I did it because I pressed the buttons and all that. Maybe in an alternate universe . . . anyway I did not and would not delete anything the others said because it is all related to the topic with the intent to discuss, thus is legit by most standards.
If Robert would be so kind as to provide some direction regarding this sort of issue, I am happy to comply. I hope Robert has some measure of confidence in my abilities to filter the dross . . .
FTR, I have deleted trolls in the past with no other commentary and rest assured that their absence is not missed by anyone with any sense.
How many chances do racist trolls get before they’re banned?
It’s simply unbelievable what’s going on here.
So-called “community standards” are merely the latest example of the agents of normalcy and entrenchment subconsciously attempting to organize, dictate, tame and pacify.
As always the salvos come as a reactionary countermeasure to some unusually extreme example of the worst of human nature.
As always each one of this “community” of normalcy has their own ax to grind.
As always with “community standards”, new attempts are made to classify and control speech. And parody, satire, dark humor, as always, are feared and maligned implicitly if not explicitly.
As always, the “community” wants nothing but the best, they want to save us all from ourselves.
The only surprise to me is that so far the “community” hasn’t figured out a way to tie pedophilia in with all of this. But don’t worry, that will happen soon enough.
The old media dictator is dead. Long live our new media overlords.
I love how “free speech” is the first refuge of the rude.
dlatn, I don’t know how it is where you are (can’t tell what flag that is), but free speech generally means speech without fear of government intrusion. This is a private blog, remember? Private individuals can, and in this case, do, impose guidelines on how their property is used. If you want to spout off freely, you’re free to get your own soap box.
Frankly, your apparent understanding of “free speech” as “say anything, any time, anywhere” is uninformed and quite childish.
-Tony
Amen, Tony.
Free Speech is not Free…
My own opinion is that the strikeover strategy is a waste of time - you show your disapproval but the dreck can still be read. So what is the point? I don’t mind (in fact I support) attempts to focus the debate and weed out trolls and folks who only want to slime other’s points of view. I visit this site to read about controversies concerning Korea and exchange thoughts and opinon with fellow Korea enthusiasts. I don’t like to waste my time scrolling down through a mess of off topic observations and various personalist rants. And free speech was never inrtended to give folks the right to say whatever they want anywhere they want to say it. I prefer the new system.
RE: deletion format
Suggest erasing the remarks but leaving the post’s place in the thread since commenters do use post #s when referring to previous comments. The whole point of moderating is to filter out the trash in order to make the thread more readable. Xs and strikeouts defeat that purpose. Just erase and leave a message like “edited by moderator.”
I think Sonagi is correct; that’d get rid of the trash, but retain readability for longer threads.
If a thread has only a few comments or none referring to other comment #s, however, I’d say just delete the offending one(s) entirely.
When people are off-topic and cross the line of just criticism and engage in personal attacks, then they get deleted. I never act rudely towards anyone nor use foul language since one can never tell just who might be reading my commentary. I did imply that *some* people that deliberately posting on my threads are without a sense of humor and make snide, off-topic comments. I treat people they way I would want to be treated. If they act badly, I cut them off.
dlatn’s banal shite should have been the first to be deleted in that case.
The way I (still) see this, you aborted an argument that you were bound to lose (admittedly, an off-topic argument not worth pursuing in a pointless thread about an innocuous map) and you did crassly call people an ass, which is not IMPLYING anything or treating anyone politely.
At the very least, if moderation must take place, let’s not have the original poster play referee on threads he’s involved with. (Although that would be a fun power to have as we’ve seen)
[DELETED. Reason: Inappropriate comment.]
if someone calls me a derogatory name ‘goose’ that’s ok too.
If that is derogatory, why self-apply that Korean handle?
[DELETED. Reason: Response to off topic comment.]
[DELETED. Reason: Response to off topic comment.]
Marmot, why not have Oranckay directly warn folks with a pattern of malicious comments once or twice, explaining why they’ve been warned, then ban them? Seems like you’re making it overly complicated.
Like Sonagi said in #23, just put a note where the deleted comment was.
Michael -
That might even be happening. You’d never know, because it shoudn’t be a public scolding.
(And frankly I’m not sure how many times people should be told to not respond to inappropriate comments before banning the responders. It is they who make the most work.)
As for banning, whenever it comes time to do that, there are different ways to do that, some more effective than others, and various methods are being studied. This is not a topic for open discussion. Not because it’s off topic in this thread but because I’d be giving hints about how to spam the blog despite the checks.
Personally I’d like to be able to make it so that some comments from repeated offenders require approval. So far I haven’t seen a plugin that lets some commenters comment freely while requiring others have each comment approved.
Ah, I see. If I remember right Korea Liberator had some approval function (I’m not sure how they did it though) because they mentioned holding comments pending approval, so you might contact them.
[DELETED. Reason: For heaven's sake, please don't respond to inappropriate comments.]
Michael,
We at the late Korea Liberator (James, Joshua, and myself), put a few trouble-makers on a list within WordPress discussion options that automatically routed all their comments to moderation for approval if appropriate. It wasn’t done often, however, and a couple were ultimately just banned.
Please don’t ban even vicious racists such as dlatn. Free speech is so much fun.
If you would like to pass the hat for his involuntary sterizization, however, include me in.
PS: Dogbertt #33, you’re so right.
When I first saw this post I thought, “oh no, here we go again,” but this is turning out to be somewhat helpful.
I can’t tell why attempts to require approval from comments isn’t working as well as I’d like. For reason I described in #31. But thanks for the ideas about making that happen, pls keep them coming.
Another thing I’d like to have available is a function that lets you require approval for comments on some posts and not on others. So if, based on experience, we expect a certain post is going to turn into an ethnic/personal/just-plain-stupid fight in the comment section, require everyone to get approval, then let open threads and less controversial subjects be comment-at-will. That would be nice.
On a personal note, as far as my own personal preferences are concerned, let me tell you about the bicycle related email lists (two in English, one in Japanese) I’m on. I’m on several bike-tech and bike-culture-for-retrogrouch lists that actually prohibit discussion of some subjects - namely whether one should wear a helmet and whether bike lanes are good or not. You can say “hey here’s a new helmet I’ve tried and liked and you might like, too,” but you can’t argue the merritts of whether riders should be required to wear them, whether gov’ts should get involved, and so on. The reason is simple: the arguments have been heard a billion times over and there’s nothing new and - most importantly - the subject always manages to turn into a fight and lead to complete meltdown and scare away anyone who wnats to have civilized conversation about whether Toei of Japan (my personal favourite) is going to have enough of the French parts from the 1940’s to keep up production on their “retro” bikes into the next century. Ponder that for a moment - bicycle discussion groups that ban talk of helmets and bike lanes. I’ve wondered what can be learned from this in our case here. I for one might be in favor of banning all talk that makes any reference whatsoever of the ethnicity of the commenters. (You would be able to say, for example, “What would that mean for foreigners in Korea?” or “Do gyopos in the US tend to agree with that?” but not “Your motive for saying that is that you’re such-and-such.”) It’s not that it can’t be done or shouldn’t, or that talk about that is racist in and of itself. Heck, sometimes it’s even quite relevant as far as the initial comment is concerned (and NOT the follow-ups). It’s just that it’s never, ever, EVER, helpful when it happens here and it is a double whammy to people who are just waiting to go ballistic because it’s _personal_ in a _racial_ kind of way, like two live wires suddley linked together. Worst of all, it’s the same thing all over again, every gosh darn time. Anyway, things like this are just my own personal desire based on what I’d _like to think_ is a lot of experience. Obviously I would never decide this on my own and would probably be an idea for the long-term so fret not if you don’t like the sound of it.n
“And parody, satire, dark humor, as always, are feared and maligned implicitly if not explicitly.”
Poor mis-understood datln. He posts an extremely offensive and racist comment and expects everyone to have a good chuckle.
Personally, I don’t mind reading any and all comments, no matter how moronic or offensive (I don’t like personal attacks though) but this site is Robert’s, therefore, he can set the rules any way he likes.