Japanese Deputy Chief Cabinet Secretary Hakubun Shimomura, a close aide to Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, told Radio Japan on Sunday that there were no “embedded comfort women” during World War II [Reuters], and that while there were “comfort women,” he believed that “some parents may have sold their daughters.”
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Translation alert - I have not seen the Japanese text, but it is obvious that he is saying that the women were not 従軍慰安婦 (army commissioned comfort woman) just 慰安婦 (comfort woman). A 従軍慰安婦 would be a commissioned staff member of the army, like a 従軍看護婦 (commissioned nurse), or 従軍記者 (commissioned reporter) that carries an army insignia, ect.
In fact, comfort women were never referred to as従軍慰安婦 in contemporary times, just as 慰安婦.
There seems to be limited Japanese language coverage of this talk at present. With the most being from the Korean Media such as this JoongAngIlbo article.
However the quotes used in that article can be found in the Nikkei, however with limited commentary and a slightly different wording wich would lead me to believe that the Japanese language articles being written by Korean media sources are translations either from Korean or English, and not taken directly from what was said. Here is what was said according to the Nikkei.
He uses the term 従軍慰安婦 only to say they did not exist, and uses the term 慰安婦 to acknowledged their existence. Matt’s speculation as to the terminology used in the actual quote is correct.
For those interested, the wording being used by the Korean media in Japanese language articles is:
Again, it appears to be a translation from English, not what was actually said in Japanese. But it is saying pretty much the same thing.
Hey, I am a first timer here.
BTW, Why these japanese governmental officials are making a fuss out of the comfort women issue?
I guess these are not so smart moves for them at all.
Here is a development:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asi.....495115.stm
I found this article from the BBC of interest in relation to this thread here.
I guess I just don’t see why, in this persons case, she was sold as a prostitute by her step-father, and she wants the Japan to compensate her for it.
“how brutally she was beaten and raped by soldiers”
“I guess I just don’t see why, in this persons case, she was sold as a prostitute by her step-father, and she wants the Japan to compensate her for it.”
Yes, and the soldiers who beat and raped her were not Japanese ?
And the Command of the Imperial Army tried everything humanly possible to prevent such incidents from happening ?
THIS IS NOT A DUPLICATE COMMENT !
“some parents may have sold their daughters.”
1. This is different from virtually every other pre-modern society, how??
2. Yet, this relieves Japan of the responsibility of what their military organization made possible and fostered, how??
I personally don’t think the Japanese passed legislation and orchestrated events by which girls would be kidnapped and forced into prostitution. Maybe they did but of that, and that only, there is no evidence. But, some within the system that sponsored this activity were clearly willing to take advantage of circumstances that allowed them to manipulate the misfortunates of a large number of women to support a war effot that was, no doubt, the sole responsibility of the Japanese government. I don’t know what percentage of the “comfort” women were voluntary due to economic issues or involuntary by means of someone else’s (Japanese, family, local authority, thugs, etc.) force but the system was Japanese and therefore the operation of it was of Japanese reponsibility. They should have either accepted full responsbility for the crimes or investigated and taken measures to ascribe responsibility to individuals. It’s too late to do the latter, I think, so today’s Japanese government is left the choice of the former.
MrChips is absolutely right - the Japanese government simply cannot wriggle out of its responsibility.
That’s the major point, Fantasy. But is that a legal or moral responsibility? In a society where it’s legal to sell your child, then the buyer is within their legal rights to do such things.
But morally it has never been right to buy and sell people, yet it has happened all around the world, and still goes on today. So, what aught Japan do to resolve it’s moral responsibility? For starters, apologize.
But that has happened many times over. Any sort of financial compensation would venture over to the legal side would it not? However that has already been covered as well, with the normalization of relations between Japan and Korea where Japan paid a large sum of money and Korea threw out the rights of it’s private citizens to seek compensation.
There has also been the creation of the Asian Women’s fund. People will say that doesn’t count because it is not compensation received from the government, but from a private foundation. However, when you look to see where the money for the foundation came from, you see that it was started with a large sum from the government, and then further funding by private companies that may have benefited from the suffering of others. If the Japanese government is to held responsible through the actions of a middle-man broker and a horrible excuse for a human-being parent, then the ASW should be attributed to the Japanese government in the same way. However to this day, very few people choose to accept any money from it.
So, if the Japanese government is standing to make amends, and the victims refuses them, does the victim still retain the right to remain vocal? Legally speaking, no, of course not. Morally speaking, the ‘victims’ are in the wrong if they refuse amends and continue to complain of amends not being made.
I’m not saying these women deserve nothing for their pain and suffering. There is a large sum of money in the AWF with everyone’s name on it, and there was a large sum of money handed over to the Korean government that should have been used for that purpose as well. Sadly, these womens’ compensation money became the highway that connects Seoul to Busan as well as financed then leaders friends’ ship building companies, but the money in the AWF is still awaiting.
I love how you put italics around the word “victims” and claim that they are morally wrong in refusing to accept amends Peter Pan. Or that the Japanese government is somehow not responsible for the actions of likely hundreds of thousands of its own soldiers in uniform. You know, the ones who did the actual raping and beating. But lets ignore all that and focus on those dastardly middle men.
Typical Japanoid Japologist mealy-mouthedness. The reason so many people are unsatifised with any so-called Japanese apologies is precisely because of the attitude you display. The “Im sorry” but not really, and it was your own damn fault anyways kind of apology.
The equivalent of a 10 year old boy taunting his younger sister by flailing his fists about and claiming that its her fault if she happens to gets hit.
Actually, this would be italics, those are quotes, but I understand what you are getting at even though I put the word in quotes in a single isolated incidence specifically to illustrate a point. Look, all I’m saying is this was a much different time, so that if this where to happen today it would be a much easier open and shut case, but it didn’t happen today. It happened in a time and place where it was considered okay to sell your daughter into sexual slavery. In that world, who takes the blame, the person who purchased a women as though she was a piece of property, or the person who made the choice to put her up for sale as though she was a piece of property? Morally, both, legally, neither. So morally, who takes the majority of the blame? The buyer or the seller? In this case their is no mention of direct force to make the father sell the daughter, so that would have to mean it was a choice made by the father. But their was a demand created by the market, so is the market more at fault? Well, as long as the market doesn’t put a gun to the sellers head and force him to sell his daughter, I don’t think so. In this particular case, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence to show that happened, but it could have as this was just a small mention in a much bigger article.
You don’t have to agree with my view of the available facts, and I don’t have to agree with yours, but I do wish you would read what I wrote rather than saying things like:
–”claim that they are morally wrong in refusing to accept amends Peter Pan”
Nope, I question the morality of refusing amends and they complaining that no amends have been made.
I don’t think anyone is saying, “I’m sorry, but not really because it’s your own fault” in the way you mean it, but what is really happening is apologizing for the act of allowing prostitution and sexual slavery to take place, but not apologizing for something that there is no evidence to support ever happened, such as the thoughts that the Japanese government gave the order for people to run into homes and kidnaping young women. For example, in a court case any testimony must be backed up with evidence to be taken seriously. Why can the same due process not be afforded in this case?
… Am I the only one who sees the irony in someone with a half-naked women for an icon speaking on behalf of womens rights?
I love that the AWF keeps getting brought up as an example of steps the Japanese Government is taking to make amends. For real guys, who doesn’t understand what sort of issues the women might have with taking money from it? Sure, these women are not living large and many could use money to make their lives more comfortable, but the detached nature of the fund is what cripples it. Many women would be happy to take just a dollar if it were given by the Japanese government in reparations, it’s not like you can put a price on that suffering which is anything but symbolic.
And the fact that an Asian Women’s Fund has to be established for the Japanese Government to give them money… obviously the government thinks it’s a big deal how the money is to be given, as well… and yet some people are still talking about how it’s about the same thing.
Let’s get over that.
About the sale of women, I wonder how long a moral defense of brothels would last using these same arguments. The thing is, disadvantaged people do some crazy things, like join the military or send their children off to work. Actually, “selling” young women to do factory work was very common in both Japan and Korea in the early colonial period. It followed about the same format: capitalists told parents about good conditions and learning opportunities for their daughters, poor parents sent their children thinking it wouldn’t be so bad and would help the family (as well as their social position/marriagability afterwards), but the contracts were crap, deducted money for housing and food, and many of the families were put in debt to the companies in the end. And the health conditions in the factories were absolutely terrible. A lot of families tried to pay back the debt when they figured this out, but it’s not easy being poor.
Anyway, how are the moral implications of the comfort women’s case different? Except instead of factory owners, it the Japanese government that’s institutionalizing prostitution. Japan was instrumental in this program, and that’s what’s so important to a lot of people.
“It happened in a time and place where it was considered okay to sell your daughter into sexual slavery”
Not sure the facts back you up on this one. See above about slave-like labor women were forced to do, but there’s a whole economics of information going on here. We’re not talking about fathers (and/or mothers) standing on the porch hawking their daughters, that’s a rather childish reimagination.
On a side note, what is it about half-nakedness that’s mutually exclusive with women’s rights? OK, I understand what you’re saying, but all states of undress belong to both the sexes, lol.
“… Am I the only one who sees the irony in someone with a half-naked women for an icon speaking on behalf of womens rights?”
I agree with you thus far, Peter Pan…
But not much further:
“For example, in a court case any testimony must be backed up with evidence to be taken seriously. Why can the same due process not be afforded in this case?”
The usual standard of proof, suitable for the trial of an individual before a court of law, does not make much sense when applied to state responsibility. Unlike the individual defendant, a state simply has to many possibilities open to her to hide behind the deeds of her agents which it may claim not to have authorised.
How would it ever have been possible to nail down Germany (my home country) for her war crimes, if the usual standard of proof had been applied. E.g. there has never turned up any government order for the construction of extermination camps, yet these were undoubtedly not the product of mere private entrepreneurship.
All German post-war governments, starting with the Adenauer chancellorship (1949-63) simply accepted the fact that they had inherited the burden of responsibility based on their realisation that insistence on the usual standard of proof would simply not be proper with a view of the magnitude of the crimes committed. And that was the only dignified solution to the conundrum…
Good evening, Japanese speakers, who read Korean and English,
please evaluate these statements, and I would be interested in knowing whether or not either is true in Japan. Gam Sa hab ni da.
http://news.chosun.com/site/da.....00501.html
I suppose at least Ponta can provide input, but I’m not sure if it’s a reliable output.
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=567
Bevers and the boys at Occ have been saying this is proof that Comfort Women was a natural thing in the ROK.
I think the year being 1961, it works against the “I believe Japan” crowd.
This proves the South Koreans learned this from the Japanese.
http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?u.....re_Gallery
Look at this picture.
The Japanese are spinning their little heads wildly. They are admitting there was comfort women.
But, they want to deny it was forced.
They want to deny the Japanese govt and the military was behind it.
What are these Jap docs and nurses doing?
Providing free health care for the local population in South East Asia, of course.
link won’t link right. Click on number 3 to see, smiling Japanese docs and nurses.
wjk, what is the purpose of posting those racial slurs? Is it so you can make a racial comment and say later on “well it wasn’t me, it was this other guy, I was just copy/pasting”, when someone points it out?
Japanese like to say, where was the Korean peasant revolt against the Japanese taking women durign the occupation.
Okay, you name one peasant revolt that succeeded in any colony across the world without an army of armed riflemen. Name one. There is none. Cinqo de Mayo is an exception.
Just like in any colony, the “masters” didn’t ask these women out on a date.
Just like in the movie Hong Kong, 1941, (movie came out in early 80s, before Koreans were allowed to voice on the matter and Koreans didnt tell what to think for the Hong Kong Chinese at this point), the Japanese military officer sees an attractive face and some boobs, and…forces himself on the local woman. Rape. Isn’t that the way people who were colonized dealt with across the globe?
Be honest.
what is the purpose of you using Lee Wan Yong’s face? So you can say, it’s not me, it’s Lee Wang Yong?
purpose is to point out the cultural and thinking difference between Kor and Japan.
“purpose is to point out the cultural and thinking difference between Kor and Japan”
WJK:
While I agree with you on this specific issue in question I do, in general, very much prefer the Japanese thinking to the Korean one. The difference in politeness between the Japanese and the Koreans, whom I believe to be the rudest people on earth, strikes me each time when I, or my (Korean) wife get in contact with any of them - and I really have the possibility to compare the behaviour of people in different cultures as I’ve lived in a good number of countries around the globe.
JK (though I’m not sure you are reading this):
Before you get upset again, I want to clarify that the above-mentioned statement only refers to authentic Koreans, not to Gyopo.
I agree.
Japan didn’t systematically kidnapped women to make them prostitutes.
But surely Japan was involved with this system.
Japanese troop set up the house for the brothel and let the pimps recruit women and let them run the brothels. Though the police tried to arrest and in fact arrested the illegal pimps, mostly Koreans as far as I read the testimonies, and Japanese troop closed down the brothels on suspicion that the women was forced, a lot of women were deceived and in some cases forced by pimps; many were told that they could earn a lot of money at factory but instead sold to the brothel.
In some brothels the living condition was good, but in other brothels it was horrible.
Facing it, Japan set up the fund and PM apologized.
Korean ultranationalist tried to prevented ex-comfort women from receiving the fund.
A Dutch women testified at war tribunal and as a result one is sentenced to death and ohters were sentenced in prison, and yet she is not satisfied with it and is not satisified with the PM’s apology.
During Korean War, Korean military set up and run the brothels for the UN soldiers, and Seoul registered the prositutes. Some women were raped and made prostitutes.
In 1947 the number of “official prositutes were 2124, in 1948 the number of prostitutes increased more than 50000, and after Korean War the number of prositutes was more than 300000. Are they volountary prositutes who could reject the service when they felt like it?( OhmyNews(2002-02-26))
As for A-twon,
.
And how were women initiated?….
And how were they treated?…..
Were they free business women ?….
Why did they become prositutes?….
…..
So they were ecnomically and socially forced just as many Korean comfort women were.And some were deceived and forced by pimps just as the comofort women were.
And how do Korean people see them?
( Sex Among Allies by Katharine H. S. Moon)
Surely somthing must be done.
Is it only me that it reminds of the case where Korean girls were run over by the US
tank and however the US apologized, the media kept distorting the story?
Ponta,
I see the similarities you are alluding to.
But there are differences, as well. The death of the two girls was accidental - but the comfort women were not forced accidentally into prostitution.
Regards
Fantasy
jury shouldn’t acquit the villain, because he shaved, showered, and dressed up in a suit.
At somepoint in history, they weren’t even allowed to present their “best” look.
Fantasy
Sure there is a difference. But I am glad there is somebody who see the similarities.
Typical Japanoid Japologist mealy-mouthedness. The reason so many people are unsatifised with any so-called Japanese apologies is precisely because of the attitude you display.
Bevers and the boys at Occ have been saying this is proof that Comfort Women was a natural thing in the ROK.
This reminescent of the old dialogue back in the States where black people say “400 years of slavery!” and white people say “we’re not responsible because your own African ancestors sold you into bondage”.
The Japanoid Japologists have had plenty of practice in revisionist deconstruction back home.
The problem with some people is that they just make up the opponent’s argument so that they can attack easily, they can change the subject. Nowadays it seems some post-modern people mistakenly call it “deconstruktion”. I for one don’t endorse logo-centrism but I prefer it to humpty-dumpty argument.
“This reminescent of the old dialogue back in the States where black people say “400 years of slavery!” and white people say “we’re not responsible because your own African ancestors sold you into bondage”.”
Well, I don’t know about anyone else, but when someone says, “400 years of slavery!” I respond with, “More like 260!”
Since the end of WW2, Japan and it’s people have been very good world citizens. Not perfect, no country or it’s people are, but on the whole Japan and it’s people are admired and respected. Then along come the lying revisionists, who damage a lot of the goodwill that exists in the international community towards Japan. This also damages Japan’s exports. Doing the right thing will only increase Japan’s respect amongst the international community.
Abe is now considered a liar and a crackpot in the international community. Japan deserves better.
wjk wrote:
In that case you’ve succeeded. You’ve shown that Koreans are foul-mouthed, vulgar, irrational whiners, while Japanese are able to discourse in a rational, polite fashion.
Nothing we did not already know, of course.
I don’t see a denial of those chosun ilbo quotes.
Then, it must be true..
Isn’t it the villain at court who is cool and collected, while the victim or the families of the victim who are bawling for justice?
Why, yes it is.
Yes it is, my friend.
To apply the ” I believe Japan” analogy, it’s not being foul-mouthed, if it’s true what I quoted.
Look how cool and collective and polite Ponta is in pointing out in a long winded way that they were whores. Nice guy.
OK, wjk, if I read your post correctly, you are justifying and excusing the naked and ugly racism. arrogance, and vituperation of a generation of young Koreans on the allegation that they are somehow victims?
Good luck getting your “justice”, then.
young? Chosun’s readers/commenters are averaged aged in their 50s.
Ugly and naked racism?
Let me pull a Ponta-ism here.
It’s not racism or offensive. If it’s true, you see?
Assuming it’s true anyway, saying ANYTHING is ok. …
Here’s a translation.
In Japan, when a husband’s wife dies, the wife’s un-married sister serves as the husband’s new wife. (wjk notes, This is the year 2007.)
In Japan, fathers sell their daughters to be whores when the house is too poor. (wjk notes, This is the year 2007.)
That’s what the chosun reader says, who by stats shows readership is in their 50s in age.
These are not “young” Koreans.
I think it’s a fair tit-for-tat from people in the Japanese isles who say in elaborately “polite” and collective ways that these women were not victims, but were voluntary whores.
Abe is already caving in. But only back to the status quo. Why he bothered to deviate from it from the first place, I don’t know. He must not be a very good thinker.
Koreans are frog in the well. They say. Well, the Japanese are frogs in the well, when it comes to dealing with their war legacy.
i really appreciate wjk’s commentary. he’s like that barking dog you think will never bite, but then, you discover half your ass is missing. however, in cases like this, it’s better to let the apologists for japan make apologies for their people. informing us that the little old ladies were whores sold into prostitution by their pimp fathers does not need a counter-argument since these kind of statements usually collapse on themselves due to faulty construction.
in fact, i want to encourage the japan apologist to keep on talking. the more he says the better.
“This reminescent of the old dialogue back in the States where black people say “400 years of slavery!” and white people say “we’re not responsible because your own African ancestors sold you into bondage”.”
Not really. Japanese families also sold their daughters into prostitution (sexual slavery) and some estimate a large number of the comfort women were Japanese. It was not rare for Japanese, Chinese and Koreans to sell their own kind into prostitution at the time. It’s completely different from slavery in the Americas, where westerners only considered non-whites as legal slaves.
wjk, you forgot to translate “왜놈” and “일본놈” (or it’s variant “넘” used in an attempt to evade the auto-censors).
Is that considered proper language for Koreans in their 50s? When will you finally learn that you are not accorded respect because of your age — you are accorded respect due to the content of your character and your respect for others?
dogbert, i’m sure the wae-noms have their own set of colorful expressions to describe Koreans. This is an understood thing between old Koreans and old Japanese. Big-nose yang-noms need stay out of this.
Bluejives, frankly I don’t care to take sides between Koreans and Japanese. I just enjoy pointing out the hypocrisy of Koreans and Korean-Americans from time to time. As you illustrate, Koreans, in their arrogance, deign to insult everyone, not only Japanese, using ethnic slurs.
wjk, your translation did not include the translation for the Korean racial slurs towards Japanese. Besides the racial slurs, are you saying that what you translated is true? A simple yes or no will do.
Actually, I don’t see what the problem is with a widower marrying his wife’s unmarried sister is. It was not an uncommon practice in the U.S. in days past and I would be surprised if it were unknown in Korean history either.
What is the world coming to when Koreans or Korean Americans think they can tell us what to do?
“Yet, this relieves Japan of the responsibility of what their military organization made possible and fostered, how??”
Japan has no responsibility any more. They paid 800 million dollars worth of reparations to South Korea in 1965, with the condition that they no longer be responsible to compensate individuals. That was up to the SK government. If you don’t like it, dig up Park’s ashes and bitch at them.
The South Korean government paid compensation to people who lost property and to the families of those who died, but not to comfort women. Why?
Likely because they realized they could make no definite determination of who volunteered for duty–and there were many–or who was sold by their parents–and they existed too–or those who were tricked by Korean agents, such as one woman who testified in Congress.
I hope you find the arguments in the Comments sections of blogs fun, because it’s never going to transcend that.
A deal’s a deal. I realize, from looking at recent history with Pyongyang, that upholding their end of a treaty may not be a Korean strong point, but don’t be surprised when other countries draw their own conclusions.
“Koreans are foul-mouthed, vulgar, irrational whiners.”
How does that square with your earlier statement that you do not hold contempt for Koreans?
hoju_kyopo wrote:
You’re being somewhat of a literalist.
My statement is based upon wjk’s cites, which he used as the basis for his assertion. I in turn used it as the basis for mine.
To satisfy you, I should write:
“[Many] Koreans [who post comments on online news sites] are foul-mouthed, vulgar, irrational whiners.”
which would be a literally correct observation.
Of course, I do not have contempt for Koreans as a whole, but I have nothing but contempt for those many Koreans who, in their unwarranted arrogance, insist on referring to people as “양놈”, “왜놈”, and “짱께”, among other slurs. As I keep trying to impress upon you, one must give respect in order to receive respect.
@bluejives: the only pejorative Japanese term for Koreans I am aware of is the mild “sangokujin”, whose parsing I shall leave for anyone who is interested.
Pardon me, for this attempt to return more to the comments made by Abe’s aide.
The statement made by Abe’s aide was, “some daughters were sold by their parents.” The BBC article I referenced quotes a girl who translated a former comfort women’s memoirs where she was aware of the fact that she was sold to be a comfort women by her step father. However she clearly wasn’t happy with his actions as she referred to what happened next as rape, not work.
So I question, was it possible for a case such as this to take place: where the father sells the daughter, and doesn’t tell her. Latter, someone comes to ‘collect’ their ‘property’ and the parents do nothing to stop them. If the girl did not know she was sold out by her parents, she would think as though she was being kidnapped.
Could that explain some cases where women say they were kidnapped, but have no evidence to support the claims in apposition to evidence that shows records of payments received for ‘work’?
Fantasy:
I found your comment of how there is no need for things such as evidence or proof in a case like this to be incredibly interesting. After my head exploded and I put it back together, I continued reading and you say that there was no evidence in the case of Germany either. Again, head exploded, now re-assembled. Could you please elaborate more on how evidence is trivial, and there was no proof of the concentration camps? I’m aware that this thread is not the place for it (however it has gotten very far off track, partially my fault, and with the comments above I am trying to bring it back on) so if you could please email me more information about that I would very much appreciate it.
p.pan.in.neverland@gmail.com
[MODERATOR COMMENT: In my capacity as comment section moderator and as part of this blog's ongoing experiment in comment moderation, I regret to inform readers that the comment section for this post is hereby closed for a 12 hour period starting KST 14:00 20070327, for discussion that is off topic and disputatious. No comments have or will be deleted unless specifically noted.Please note that (1) deciding moderation policy is an ongoing process and (2) as noted elsewhere, reacting to off topic or inappropriate comments is itself deemed inappropriate. Your comments about moderation are welcome HERE. Discussion of comment moderation policy elsewhere is considered off topic.]“Fantasy:
I found your comment of how there is no need for things such as evidence or proof in a case like this to be incredibly interesting. After my head exploded and I put it back together, I continued reading and you say that there was no evidence in the case of Germany either. Again, head exploded, now re-assembled. Could you please elaborate more on how evidence is trivial, and there was no proof of the concentration camps? I’m aware that this thread is not the place for it (however it has gotten very far off track, partially my fault, and with the comments above I am trying to bring it back on) so if you could please email me more information about that I would very much appreciate it.
p.pan.in.neverland@gmail.com”
Peter Pan:
I am seriously sorry that, on your own account, my way of arguing annoyed you to such an extent that your raesoning power was affected, thus indirectly leading to the creation of the “concentration camp” strawman on your part.
Peter Pan, I quite fequently debate, on a whole array of very different topics, with people who claim that a certain matter “has not been proved.” As I have got a law degree (from a quite reputable British university) I tend to answer their submission with the counter question “So, which standard of proof do you require - the standard for criminal cases (proof beyond reasonable doubt) or the one for civil cases (proof on the balance of probabilities) ? And do you also want the whole array of technical rules demanded by procedural law to be observed ?”.
Now, I have no idea how you would answer this question with regard to the comfort women issue, but let me share with you, as well well as with the other readers, my own opinion on the matter :
Neither standard does apply. Because if we applied procedural standards of evidence (including e.g. the hearsay rule and the requirement for whitnesses to be available for cross-examination) to historical events, we would have to come to the conclusion that, for a whole variety of reasons, it would hardly be possible to “prove” any historical event, at all.
So, there is a special standard of intellectual honesty the application of which can furnish “proof” in a historical, not legal, context - and this standard is very different from what constitutes “proof” in a criminal, or even in a civil, court of law.
Japan does not stand accused in a court of law on the comfort women issue, nor can an entire country ever stand accused, at least not in a criminal case. Japan stands accused in the “Court of History”, instead. If found guilty, she will not be convicted (and locked up or executed) but it will merely be subject to a moral (not legal) obligation to make amends for the wrongdoing of her agents, as far as this is possible, at all.
As for your request to contact you via private e-mail, I would like to point out my own personal policy to only enter into private correspondance with those who are of a certain standing in the K-blogosphere. I have entered into occasional correspendence with long-time commenters, such as JK and Shakuhachi who both are, their obviously diametrically opposed views notwithstanding, men of repute in the K-blogosphere. You are not, so why should I bother ?
Erratum - it should read:
If found guilty, she will not be convicted (and be made to serve time or be executed) but will merely be subject to a moral (not legal) obligation to make amends for the wrongdoing of her agents, as far as this is possible, at all.
Fantasy
Japan has apologized to korea many times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....d_by_Japan
As for the amend,
(Agreement Between Japan and the Republic of Korea Concerning the Settlement of Problems in Regard to Property and Claims and Economic Cooperation)
Japan insisted paying individually as Germany did , but Korea rejected the offer.
Korea was not satisfied.
Japan responded.
Japan set up the fund.
And PM issued apology.
http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/w.....etter.html
People who just insist, with Abe, that there is no backed up evidence that Japanese military systematically orchestrated and kidnapped women have sympathy for the comfort women.
http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=573
It is just that some people are getting sick and tired of this political game.
Surely the comfort women system was the tragedy not only for Korean women but also for Japanese women. The similar tragedy happened under Germany, and it has been happening in Korea:Germany has not apologized has not set up the fund and Korea has not been avoiding the issue.
Why does the media just focus on the comfort women in Japan to which Japan has already apologized while ignoring Germany forced prostitute and Korean forced prostitutes system?
Are they really thinking of restoring the honor of the victims?
Because IMO Koreans and Korean American people keep picking up the issue, rejecting to accept apology and the funds, putting pressure ex-comfort women who need the money not to receive the money, paying ex-comfort woman for sitting in front of Japanese embassy while smiling at North korea.
Are they really thinking of restoring the honor of the victim? or is it just a political game?
I was stating a fact based on reliable historians on this forum, but just that makes hysterical reaction as if comfort women issue is the sacred cow in Korea (while in truth Korean people despise new generation comfort women under Korean government.)
Some people want Japanese to say the comfort women were senile ” whores” because they want to demonize Japanese who doubt Korean nationalistic assumption.
Isn’t it political game?
Kono’s statement was a political concession which
was supposed to settle the issue, but it didn’t work. I think many Japanese are beginning to feel another apology will not work either.
Ponta:
I fully acknowledge the validity of some of the points you are bringing up - you know very well that I am not really a fan of the Korean nationalists (a term I use only because I want the avoid describing them by the tainted word “racists”) who are trying to instrumentalise the comfort women issue for their own political purposes.
As my (Korean) wife always says:
An apology to be made by the Tenno to the old ladies - yes !
Compensation to be paid by Japan to the old ladies - yes !
Appeasement of the nationalistic Korean Chauvinists to be sought - no way !
(For your better understanding of this statement of hers you should know that my wife has habitually been attacked as a “traitress” for marrying a dirty dark-looking “waygook” like me and is thus full of resentment for her nationalistic Korean compatriots.)
The apology (and the compensation payment which might accompany it) is owed to the women personally, definitely not to Korea as a nation. The earlier the Tenno is made to come forward and to deliver an unequivocal and unqualified apology, the better it is for Japan, which will then finally be able, after paying compensation to the actual victims (the payments in the 60s have never reached them), lay the issue to rest.
Why should the apology be delivered by the Tenno ? Because he is the only person to speak with authority for the whole of Japan, irrespective of the vagaries of the day-to-day business of Japanese politics. By delivering the long overdue apology he could do a great service for his country.
And after Japan has fulfilled her duty by making the Tenno deliver sincere unequivocal apologies and compensation payments to the victims of the sexual enslavement by her agents and by those who acted with her connivance, the Korean side should finally shut up and stop blaming Japan. If the nationalists in the ROK then still continue they should be universally ostracised.
Ponta I agree with every facts in your post, but not with the logic. I know that these “facts” irritate especialy younger generations of Japanese, and that is currently a drive to push them to the more nationalistic side.
I agree with the logic of what Fantasy wrights althouh I can not imagine that it will happen, at least in the near future.
And Fantasy, no offense intended, the difference in the German case and Japanese case is, reconciliation about the past can only acomplished when both sides wants reconciliation.
Actually after WW2, every party who participated in the war in Europe were completely exhausted after having already two total wars in a row.
Most Asian Nations still don’t feel this kind of exhaustion about nationalism. Some even feel that their nationalism should also have the chance to prove themself in the world.
You see, I think the historical implication of the Japanese invasion and warfare in Asia could be maybe better understood if you compare it with what the Napoleon’s warfare meant to 19th century Europe. It spread the seed of Nationalism. And especialy,in case of nationalism in countries like south korea and in china, taiwan, if you look close enough, you can find the brand mark “Made in Japan”.
Fantasy.
Thanks
Yes, I know you are critical of Korean nationalist, and as wise as your wife may be, I don’t think that will work.
Japanese government set up the fund.
Some ex-comfort women have received the money through the foundation, Indonesia received it as a nation, saying “インドネシア政府は、元「慰安婦」の認定が困難であること、元「慰安婦」の方々やその家族の尊厳を守らなくてはならないこと、日本・インドネシア間の賠償問題は平和条約等によって解決済みであること等の理由から、元「慰安婦」個人に対する事業ではなく、「高齢者福祉施設」整備事業への支援を受けたいという方針を持つにいたったのです”
It is difficult to identify ex-comfort women, and
it is important to protect the dignity of ex-comfort women and her family, the issue of compensation had been settled by the peace treaty, Indonesian government would receive it as a project for the older people, not as a project for individual ex-comfort women.”,
http://www.awf.or.jp/ianfu/country_in.html:
others are others are rejecting it, saying they want money directly from the government.
(In case of Indonesia, if I remember correctly, when Japanese asked ex-comfort women to come forward, there were so many women that in calculation, each Japanese soldiers had one prostitute.)
And if you look at the constitution, it is clear Japanese Prime minister represents Japan.
Who’s going to apologize to ex-forced-prostitutes under Germany /Korea :they have no emperor.
Japanese PM issued apology.
(Germany and Korea have not)
Korea complained that they should be given money, saying she will take care of individual cases.
They got it.
They complained they wanted an apology.
They got it.
They complained they wanted more money individually for comfort women.
The wish is granted.
But they are not satisfied, saying the attitude was bad when the apology was made etc.
Korea will keep complain whatever, under Roh, under whoever. More and more Japanese are beginning to realise it.
Tomojiro
What is your logic to refute my logic?
Fantasy, I think you need to review what you’ve said before you accuse me of setting up a straw man.
(I’m not frustrated, just saddened that someone such as yourself who has a law degree from a respectable British university would say one thing, and then when questioned about it say I created a straw man; especially when said one thing is to say that evidence is not necessary.
I’m sorry that I have not yet proven my worth to you in order to be graced with the awesome power that is an email from someone such as yourself, but after reading your last comment, I am confidant that I’m not missing out on anything.
Please let us know when your well respected law degree allows for you to read your own comments.)
… I understand you’re thought that if there is only one single way something could have happened, then that is the way it happened. But in this case it’s not so simple. Parents did sell their children. Women did work as prostitutes. Not all of them, but there are known cases. Therefor we can not say the Japanese government went into the homes of people and abducted them when we have no evidence to support that. Again, testimony is nothing more than hear-say without evidence to support it. There are hundreds of people would would swear on their life that they have seen bigfoot. But only a fool would believe that without evidence.
The construction and the operation of the German concentration camps (better to be named extermination camps) has never been formally ordered in writing by the members of the government of Nazi Germany. Therfore, later at the Nuremberg trials, the former German “Rüstungsminister” (Minister in charge of the Military) Albert Speer could successfully claim not to have known about the camps. And he made this claim despite the fact that he had, as from the end of 1943, effectively been the No. 2 in the government (in terms of actual power rather than formal status), directly after the “Führer” himself.
This lie of Speer’s saved his head at Nuremberg. Instead, he was sentenced to 20-year imprisonment, and was thus released in 1966. From then on he lead a quite glamorous life as the only Nazi Government Member who was still alive and available for interviews. After effectively doing little else but giving talks about the era for 15 years he died peacefully in 1981 (of all places in London (!), because there, as well as in the US he enjoyed the highest possible reputation as a war time whitness and as a “really bad guy” turned round).
Meanwhile, in Germany there were serious doubts all along as to his lack of knowledge - and soon after his death the leading specialists for the period in question came to the conclusion that there was ample proof (historical, not legal proof) to warrant the conclusion that Speer not only knew very well about the camps but also had made clear on several occasions how the inmates should be dealt with - in his view merely pointlessly gassing them was futile, instead they should be put to their best possible use by being made to work themselves to death. Hitler, however, favoured the use of gas chambers as the most reliable and expedient extermination method. And as Hitler was the “Führer” he had his way.
In dictatorships, such as Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, or Communist North Korea the top dogs do not need to give formal orders, nor even do they need to state their intentions clearly, to get done what they want to get done - they merely drop coy hints, but these hints are clear enough to let those further down in the hierarchy know what they are expected to do.
Peter Pan, FYI:
It is my policy to enter inter private correspondance only with commenters who have been active members of the Korea-related blogosphere for at least half a year, covering an array of various topics with their comments. I am not interested in entering into correspondence with those who do not seem to be genuinely interested in Korea-related issues, except for the refutation of claims brought by Korea as a country, or by Korean nationals, against other countries or their nationals.
The above statement is in no way intended to express support for each and every of those claims. Members of the K-blogosphere who have actually read my comments, or some of them, during the last year will be well aware of this.
The consruction and the operation of German brothels were ordered directly from the top level military officials in case of Germany.
In case of Japan there was no systematic order except for the tranfer of the prositutes.
And Japanese police and military were very aware that there are cased where women were deceived or kidnapped. That is why they regulated illegal pimps.
Ponta:
You may well have a good point here - I am definitely not contradicting you this time.
Peter Pan:
“testimony is nothing more than hear-say without evidence to support it”
This statement of yours is obvious nonsense.
If testimony turns out to be hearsay it will be inadmissible in court and it is the judge’s duty to prevent its presentation at the trial. If such testimony has, deliberately or accidentally, been introduced into the trial without the judge having prevented this, s/he will rule it inadmissible and will tell the jury to disregard it - a most akward situation for all those who are responsible for the blunder.
Otherwise, testimony is perfectly good evidence, often the only evidence available. There are, however, certain forms of testimony (e.g. testimony given by children or by the mentally impaired) which are in need of support by other forms of evidence, in order to be admissible in court as evidence.
Peter Pan, before you continue lecturing us what does or does not constitute evidence I suggest you go down to your local library, grab a law book, and try soaking up some knowledge about the topic, especially about the nature and function of the hearsay rule.
Or, alternatively, I suggest watching some of those popular US courtroom dramas - many are of excellent quality as far as the presentation of the legal issues is concerned. You might be able to pick up a lot of legal knowledge from them - and thus the quality of your comments may take a definite and much-needed turn for the better.
Okay, Peter Pan, I’ve just gathered from your own blog that you were a professor back in the States, before you move to Japan.
This fact, hitherto unknown to me, does, of course, change your entire standing as a commenter. Under these circumstances I should definitely not have refused to enter into private correspondence with you, instead I should have respectfully addressed you as “Esteemed Professor Peter Pan”.
It is, however, truly sad that the university you worked at obviously did not feature a Law School…
Hey man, sorry I misrepresented you in what could be seen as a straw man; not my intension, just didn’t write everything out to say that there was or wasn’t evidence for the orders from above to create camps, and rather just shortened it to evidence about the camps.
… I’m not sure who’s blog you were reading, but it may not have been mine, because I’ve never been a professor anywhere.
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