The Korea Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society will hold its second semi-monthly Lecture-Meeting of March this Tuesday the 27th, at 7:30 pm, in the 2nd-floor Resident’s Lounge of the Somerset Palace Residence (downtown, near Anguk Station, west of Exit #6; north of Jogye-sa Temple). All in English, for free and open to the public, as always; more info: 763-9483 and www.raskb.com. (includes map for the Somerset, and a complete description of the talk).
This should be one of the best of the season: well-accomplished translator of poetry & literature and overall Koreanist Brother Anthony of Taizé (a.k.a. An Sonjae, Korean citizen since 1994) of Sogang University will speak on a ”Korean Patriot and Pioneering Tea Master” — refering to the Buddhist monk “Hyodang” Choi Beom-Sul, who at 15 years old was active in the 1919 Independence Movement with many political adventures (against SK dictatorships, too), then later became abbott of venerable Dasol-sa Temple near the south coast, turning it into one of the primary sites of the dramatic 20th-Cen revival of Korea’s green tea traditions. He was one of the great pioneering leaders of that resurgence which has by now grown so large-scale, vital and culturally-rich. He married his leading student, Madame Chae Won-Hwa, who is still today Korea’s best-known Tea Master (with a studio in Insa-dong, where she teaches her own stlye that combines tea-ceremony with Seon (Zen) Buddhism.
If you’re interested, i recommend that you arrive early to get a seat, as the room is likely to be packed…
Those into this subject who haven’t already seen them might want to warm up with my own page on Jiri-san’s Hwagye-dong Tea-Valley and my two-page essay on Korea’s green tea traditions.
And i will finally note that my RAS Lecture about Jiri-san as a sacred mountain is now the featured one linked from the upper-right page at http://www.korea.com It’s not really my best speech, the volume seems too low and the lighting on me is terrible throughout, but there it finally it is; might be of some interest to some people who weren’t there…
14 Comments
How does someone get the Mrs. to Madame upgrade?
When she’s a senior figure, given extraordinary respect to to both age and accomplishment. I guess it’s a European thing, originated with the French; still widely used in diplomatic circles, for example: “Madame Ambassador” “Madame Prime Minister” etc. She doesn’t have to be currently married or have ever been married to merit this title of address. “Madame Professor” certainly wouldn’t be out of line for a senior academic who happens to be female… Korean has a few roughly equivalent terms, i believe?
Dictionary.com tells us:
(in English) a title of respect used in speaking to or of an older woman, esp. one of distinction, who is not of American or British origin. Abbreviation: Mme.
Anyway, it certainly applies to Madame Chae, one of the contemporary cultural greats. I suppose it’s possible she might show up in the audience Tuesday evening — she does speak English, and last time i was with her she seemed in great health…
You kind of guessed wrong, sanshinseon. In French it is also commonly used as a courtesy title or a polite address for a married woman. Restricting its use to that of a title or rank is an English language thing.
Huh? I did not “guess”, and what i said in #2 has nothing wrong in it. I was writing in English, this blog is conducted in English, and i specifically quoted the dictionary definition that applies in English. I know along with every other well-educated person that this term originated in French referring to married women. But in contemporary English use, it has nothing to do with marital status, as i stated. A female Ambassador or Prime Minister who has never been married would be formally addressed as “Madame Ambassador” or “Madame Prime Minister” (by those speaking English) pretty much anywhere in the world these days… Condi Rice is received as “Madame Secretary” in foreign capitals, if i’m not mistaken…
Understood about the diplomats and secretaries and ministers being given the honorific. Madame Professor??? C’mon. Why her? For tea? If she gets it why not Madame Martina Navratilova?
Anyway, such an honorific is bestowed upon someone. Who or what bestowed it upon Mrs. Chae?
Uhmm, i did. Who is or is not to be honorificly respected is a subjective judgment, status is in the eye of the beholder when a public office is not in question. If you wish to have or display no respect for Chae Seongsaeng-nim or anyone else on Earth, that is your choice to make.
> Madame Professor??? C’mon.
That would be the proper way to personally address a senior and accomplished scholar holding a professorship who happens to be female, in a formal situation. I’ve used it at academic conferences and diplomatic receptions…
> Why her? For tea?
Yes, in my opinion, which is what was posted. She is almost certainly the most senior, most accomplished and most highly respected tea-master in Korea today.
If you don’t know what a tea-master is, or are unaware of the respect they are usually regarded with in Korean (Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, etc) society, or you just don’t care about that, or if you don’t think that green tea is a legitimate field of study or spiritual practice in which one could gain respect — in other, simpler words, if you are a barbarian
then that’s fine, you may call her whatever you wish.
> If she gets it why not Madame Martina Navratilova?
Uhmm, because she’s young and therefore not older, elder or senior — and is not really “accomplished”, not yet anyway, has not earned any particular respect that i’m aware of. Please re-check the definition for usage of this term posted above, and any other such definitions you can find for it.
There are other contempary english usages,with rather more negative connotations. Personally my family would be rather upset if I told them I was going to marry a “madame”
Why, your family doesn’t want you to marry a woman with a good income in a business that never fades away…?
I do believe you are referring to “a madam” — the spelling and the “a” make the difference — in English “Madam” before her family-name is a polite way to address an older/respected woman, can be equivilent in usage to “Madame”. To use “a madam” as indicating her employment status is what you’re referring to, Argharei.
Dictionary.com is your Friend:
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary:
madam - noun — plurals madams, ~mesdames
a polite form of address to a woman
American Heritage Dictionary
Madam n. Abbr. Mdm. pl. Mes·dames
1. Used formerly as a courtesy title before a woman’s given name but now used only before a surname or title indicating rank or office: Madam Ambassador.
2. Used as a salutation in a letter: Dear Madam or Sir.
3. madam - Used as a form of polite address for a woman: Right this way, madam.
4. madam - The mistress of a household.
5. madam - A woman who manages a brothel.
Wordnet:
1. a woman of refinement; “a chauffeur opened the door of the limousine for the grand lady” [syn: dame]
2. a woman who runs a house of prostitution
Online Etymology Dictionary:
madam — 1297, from O.Fr. ma dame, lit. “my lady,” from L. mea domina (cf. madonna).
Meaning “female owner or manager of a brothel” is first attested 1871.
seouldout in #6:
> Anyway, such an honorific is bestowed upon someone.
It occurs to me that here our esteemed Mr. seouldout is confusing the rather unofficial horrific Madame with “Lady”, an aristocratic title officially “bestowed upon someone” by royalty, as in “Lady Margaret Thatcher” or etc. This is equivalent of the male Sir put before the name, as in “Sir Mick Jagger”, “Sir Elton John” and “Sir Paul McCartney” — believe it or not…
Madame Navratilova is the senior stateswoman of women’s professional tennis, isn’t young, and is the most accomplished female athlete. Ever.
Not quibbling about the scholarly or spiritual interest of tea. Big fan of Earl Grey, you know. The honorific madame struck me odd, especially since it’s used for diplomats or is bestowed upon someone, like the OBE. Its use suggests that she’d been a recipient of such an title-granting honor. Or arranges upper-crust marriages. But it’s just you handing out honorifics.
What honorific do you use for the elder male professors at academic conferences and diplomatic receptions? Sir professor?
This barbarian will stick with Mrs. unless she prefers Ms.
Nah, not confusing it. Understand Lady and Dame just fine. But since honorifics aren’t so commonly used I thought Mrs. Chae had been bestowed some type of Korean honor which necessitated Madame. And why not Madam, which is the female honorific of Sir?
And esteemed and Mr. aren’t really necessary. Seouldout is just fine by me.
Good to know.
> Madame Navratilova is the senior stateswoman of
> women’s professional tennis, isn’t young, and
> is the most accomplished female athlete. Ever.
Oh, right, i confused with that pretty blond Russian one that’s on the cover of magazines these days, sorry — don’t pay attention to sports much.
Then, yes — if you were, say, introducing this accomplished senior female athlete at some public function, you might very well refer to her as, or call her, “Madame Navratilova”. Or “Madam Navratilova”, either way.
Usage of either Madame or Madam before a woman’s name might result from that woman having having had some official honor bestowed upon her, but that is not necessary; all that’s necessary is your respect for / to her.
> The honorific madame struck me odd, especially since it’s used for diplomats
> or is bestowed upon someone, like the OBE. Its use suggests that she’d
> been a recipient of such an title-granting honor.
I am not actually aware of Madame being used as a “title bestowed upon someone” in itself, or as an indication that the woman has received some official honor; i don’t believe that’s true, seouldout. A woman who receives the OBE is referred to as “Dame”. Madame is, as i have said, entirely unofficial — an honorific that demonstrates your respect for the woman in question (presumably due to her seniority, age, accomplishments, status, wealth, whatever).
Back towards topic, a dose of healthy skepticism about the purported health benefits of green tea was just published in a short Newsweek column:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17...../newsweek/
…not much has been “proven” yet, but that don’t mean it ain’t good for ya…