An in this week’s installment of the KT’s “A Foreigner’s View of Korea,” Korean-American Alex Lee reflexes on gyopohood, prejudice, “ex-patriots” and white privilege. For the record, as a cracker, I don’t feel particularly marginalized, except this evening when I joined a game on a Korean server for Battlefield 2142—boy, those guys don’t fuck around. (HT to Lost Nomad)
One gyopo’s frustrations
This entry was written by Robert Koehler, posted on March 21, 2007 at 11:13 pm, filed under Asides, Korean Diaspora, Ministry of Barbarian Affairs. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post.
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92 Comments
What’s an “ex-patriot”?
Ex-patriot? Dresnok comes to mind.
Very good essay!!
I find them to be easily pwned in Red Orchestra, probably due to a combination of realism and Valve anti-cheat.
Mr. Alex Lee, if you’re reading this and I expect eventually you will, let me say I think we could get along well and I’d enjoy having a few beers with you. That said, you are making some presumptions here that are in effect racist and because of our shared love for Korea I’m going to be presumptuous here and help you see why. (Since you will wonder I’ll just tell you: I’m white, American citizen, got all of my edu in Korea and spent more than half my life there, perhaps longer than you’ve been alive.)
More than anything, I think it’s silly that you seem to believe the existence of “perks” enjoyed because of one’s race means that because of those perks the beneficiary is not in a position to be complaining about racism.
In America, being called a “model minority” is a perk. Many Asian-Americans hate the term and there are plenty of good reasons to dislike it, but it’s a perk nonetheless. If this is hard to accept, ask yourself which ethnicity or ethnicities it is the most adventageous to be when applying for a business loan at an American bank, as opposed to ethnicities that would have at least a slightly harder time convincing bank employees they are worth the risk.
Consider how there are so many Asian-American women on American television news channels, especially compared to Asian-American men. Is there nothing racist (if not by intention, then at least in effect) about that? Yet as far as the women are concerned, and especially from the perspective of Asian-American men, is that not simultaneously a perk?
As a white male, wouldn’t I be a real @$$hole if I said, in America to an Asian-American woman, “You’re worshiped as the model minority and worshiped on television screens, so SFTU about racism already!!”? And isn’t that the same kind of thing you’re doing here?
To be sure, it can be amusing to see “expats,” as you call them, here for so short a time that their daily lives are not seriously affected by racism yet complain about it to no end in a foreign language. (Some are reacting to racism for the first time, as you mention, while others actually seem to be enjoying the new found victimhood they’ve been unable to partake in in their countires of origin, and I imagine being able to say, “see, THEY do it too!!!” goes a long way in alleviating burdens of white guilt for those who struggle with that for some reason or another.) The racist assumption it appears you are making here is that all whites in Korea are alike and that none of them are regular, functioning members of Korean society born, raised, and educated in Korea who have to deal with the “perks” and “worshiping” you speak of on a level where it means you are exocitized and forever (and for generations of your posterity) seen as, at the least, “different.”
I don’t complain about Korean racism in English very much because I don’t see how it helps anything or could possibly be anything more than venting, and it reminds me of some of the Koreans I’ve seen in LA who live 20+ yrs in the US among Koreans, speaking only Korean, complaining to each other about it in ways that make me wonder if they know what they’re talking about, all the more so when I see them complaining about white racism while engaging in a little of it towards non-whites. Anyway, for the record, here’s one “expat” who thinks the Korean public makes itself sound a lot more racist than it really is, and that while racism in Korea needs to be addressed, it isn’t nearly as bad as it can seem sometimes.
Wow, oranckay, you lived quite a few years in Korea (ala a Dr. John Linton). But I won’t insult you by comparing you to the good doctor (quack).
Anyway, I think the point the writer of the article was making was that “It behooves white ex-patriots to give Koreans the benefit of the doubt before denouncing them as crass, superficial and prejudiced toward everything female, foreign or poor _ a sentiment many Koreans themselves admit.”
Like the Italian-American roommate of the writer who got irritated that all the other foreign students in Italy so easily negatively generalized and criticized the native Italian people, I and many of my Korean-American and Korean-Canadian friends got irritated by the constant complaining by a large percentage of the white expat crowd we encountered about the Korean people. Is there racism against white people in Korea? I’m sure. Do white expats complain too much about it? Who is to say. Does this make Koreans more racist and f*cked up compared to Americans? Well, from my perspective as someone of Asian descent living in America, no. Yet, I also don’t go drinking at some place in America, ala Hongdae, Kangnam, or Itaewon to drink and b*tch about white people with my Korean-American friends.
Again, not saying racism against white people in Korea doesn’t exist….I’m just saying that nothing was more draining than to be around a bunch of white expats sitting at a table at a bar as they go on and on about Korea being a f*cked up country and Koreans being a f*cked up people.
Was some of the complaining I had to hear legitimate? Yes, some of it. Was a lot of it crap? From my perspective, yes. A hagwon owner broke his contract with an white English teacher, yes, this is worth legitimately complaining about and bringing to the attention of others. Koreans use toilet paper as napkins at an eatery; no, b*tching about this is stupid.
But regardless, my Korean-American and Korean-Canadian friens heard it all from certain segments of the white expat crowd. And later, when looking at each other, we could only roll our eyes.
JK wrote:
“Wow, oranckay, you lived quite a few years in Korea (ala a Dr. John Linton). But I won’t insult you by comparing you to the good doctor (quack). “
The good doctor is a US citizen but was born in Chollanamdo, I believe, and speaks Korean with the local accent.
“The good doctor is a US citizen but was born in Chollanamdo, I believe, and speaks Korean with the local accent.”
Yes, I am aware of that. A major asset for him.
But after a few visits to him, I went to Korean doctors at Samsung Irwon Hospital. So did a lot of my American and Canadian friends. All the good Korean-speaking skills didn’t counter limitations, as we saw it, in his medical skills.
Relating Dr. Linton back to the topic at hand, while waiting to see Linton’s Korean colleague in the waiting room of the International Clinic, a young white man speaking North American English strode in and announced to the receptionist that he wanted to see foreign doctor because he wouldn’t trust a Korean doctor if his life depended on it. The Korean colleague is a fine doctor whose patient roster included many foreign nationals; unfortunately, he moved to another practice several years ago.
I was also seen by excellent Chinese doctors at the international clinic in Qingdao, China. Westerners who limit themselves to Western doctors are limiting their care choices.
I couldn’t agree more.
Still, the best response is to get up and leave.
And in the US (where the author is from), when a member of the racial majority lectures a minority about what they have a right to “go on and on about,” that member of the racial majority has his “motives” questioned.
JK wrote:
“Again, not saying racism against white people in Korea doesn’t exist….I’m just saying that nothing was more draining than to be around a bunch of white expats sitting at a table at a bar as they go on and on about Korea being a f*cked up country and Koreans being a f*cked up people.”
I haven’t spent enough time around Koreans in the US to make generalizations about their views of the host country, but I did get an earful of whining and complaining from South Korean expats in China about the level of cleanliness, efficiency, honesty, and work ethics. These sorts of complaints are made by Westerners, too, but the Koreans seemed worse. I had a student whose mother told her not to sit next to any Chinese students because of SARS! Another student shared how his whole family would go to the bathhouse before returning home to Korea to “scrub off the dirt of China.” A Korean mother told me she had to bring everything from Korea, even towels, because Chinese goods were such poor quality. A Korean factory owner made a Chinese employee kneel outside without a coat in the winter for some mistake. Korean kids spoke banmal to ethnic Korean adult employees of their parents.
For me, it was an eye-opening experience talking with and interacting with South Korean nationals living in a less developed country. It ain’t only Westerners, JK, who can be whining expats.
Sonagi, I agree. Ask me who I would go to first in Korea if I had an ailment….a white American doctor went to college and med school in Korea and who speaks fluent Korean in addition to fluent English but seems to be more noted for his Korean-speaking skills (to the point he is repeatedly on Korean TV talk shows) than he is his medical skills….
OR
a native Korean person who went to Seoul National University who then did his residency in the US and practiced medicine there at a reputable hospital in one of the big metropolitan cities (like NY, LA, DC) and then returned to serve at Samsung Irwon Hospital as chief of staff. Having worked as a doctor in a major hospital in the US, his English is excellent but slightly accented.
I know that when I first moved to Korea, I found the former a more “safer” option (perhaps due to my own unconscious racism, ironically against Koreans??). But after a misdiagnosis of one of my friends and a few questionable comments about medicine that the good Dr. L made to me…..I never went back; I didn’t care how American he was or HOW good his Korean and English skills were. From then on, I went to Samsung Irwon to those Korean doctors who had had solid medical experience in the US. Let me hear there accented English as long as the doctors there know what the hell they’re talking about.
“I couldn’t agree more. Still, the best response is to get up and leave. ”
Well, a WORSE response, which is what I did, was to dispute many of the generalizations, resulting in a retort like “If you don’t get it…you’re an idiot!” to which I then retored, “Who are you calling an idiot, you *sshole!” And then tempers flared…and then after some yelling, we then cooled off. And then all parties walked away having made up….but all the whites were convinced that we kyopos were brainwashed servants of the motherland and we kyopos were convinced the white expats, who we didn’t consider to be the “mainstream” American or Canadian anyway, complained too much about everything. Not saying some of the complaints weren’t legit…but, for example, I got tired of hearing this one Canadian say how in Canada, unlike Korea, a plow would clear the streets as soon as the first snowflakes fell on the street. Or when I asked another Canadian about the nearest dry-cleaner, he told me how to get to one….then went on a 5-minute tirade about how the dry-cleaners were f*cked up in Korea.
And now it’s been years since I’ve lived in Korea…but the difference in opinion of Korea still exists to some extent even on blogs such as this one. And the differences are oftentimes based on ethnicity. Not always but often enough.
I’m happy that the author wrote the article for the newspaper just so I could read Oranckay’s response to it. They were both well written and enjoyable to read.
re: Dr. Linton, worst bed side manner I ever experienced. I don’t go there anymore, instead I go to a local clinic for small things and head over to the 백병원 if it’s bigger or more important. Dr. Linton, quack mmm I don’t know but definitely lacking in empathy.
Am I the only one that found the article totally off base?
No, I did as well. You can be sure that Alex Kim complains about white Americans with his fellow kyopos, just as he rages against white Americans complaining about Koreans. It’s really just the same thing.
The difference is, minorities hypocritically try to rationalize and justify their own hatred and contempt of white people by manufacturing such imaginary evils as “white privlege”, etc. that can be used as talismans cast to negate and invalidate our own opinions on any topic involving race.
Hateful, unproductive, and just plain false (Discrimination against kyopos? Tell that to John Yoo, Yul Kwon, Ronald Moon, et al.)attitudes like Alex Kim’s are a cancer in the U.S. It is truly a pity that much of the hard won progress in race relations between American blacks and whites that occurred through the 60s and 70s has been undone by the introduction into American society of large numbers of persons of other races who have brought with them their own deep racial prejudices along with a tremendous sense of entitlement and arrogance.
Ah, give the kid a break. He’s just young, and learning that the wider world follows a whole bunch of rules that don’t conform to the ones he grew up with.
My first year in Korea, I wrote several really critical letters back home, too. Glad that was pen-and-paper days, and those words aren’t eternally embedded on the Internet where I’d be forced to defend or deny them now.
I agree. Even if there are some whites in Korea that direct some unfair criticisms at Koreans based on cultural misunderstanding, they are only temporarily in Korea, and almost always return to their home country, so the problem is self correcting. Kyopo on the other hand presume to live in the west forever, so Kyopo like this Alex Lee are a problem that will never be resolved.
Lets take a look at the article itself -
Unsupported assertion. He says that Kyopo suffer prejudice in Korea, but there is little evidence for this. Kyopo have avenues open to them that are closed to whites, like job opportunities and social opportunities. They also have favorable visa conditions for simply being Kyopo. There is also no evidence that a English conversation school pays Kyopo that are born in America less than a white American. A cursory look at Daves ESL Korean jobs board reveals no difference in rates of pay for native speakers, be they white or Kyopo. However many, perhaps most, Kyopo are actually the so called 1.5 generation of Korean Americans, that were not born in America, and are not native speakers of English. Comparing these people to native English speakers and complaining of discrimination and privilege if they do not receive the same rate of pay for their lesser skills is nonsense.
Second point, because of the privileged visa status accorded to Kyopo, not all of them are college graduates, while all the whites in Korea are required to be college graduates as a condition of getting their visa. A non college graduate Kyopo working in an English conversation school should not expect the same pay for lesser qualifications.
Irrelevant statement. Anyone that says Koreans “worship” whites can never be objective. I wonder why white people should not be considered westerners, since that is what they are?
Confusion about economics mixed with fear of sexual competition. To get people to leave their own countries, the conditions on offer must be at least as good or better than the ones they have in their own country. This is why English teachers are paid better than the average Korean white collar worker. The fear of sexual competition from white men from this Alex Lee is palpable. White people do not “saturate” the Korean media, and what white people are in the Korean media are there to make Koreans feel good about themselves. A good example is 미녀들의 수다 (The Chatting of Female Beauties) which is made so Korean men can feel good about themselves. You can tell by the questions like “why do you like Korean guys?” or “what does your Korean guy oppa say when he gets drunk?”, etc. A show that features foreign guys flirting with female Korean celebrities, saying how much they like Korean girls, or talking about what their Korean female friends do when they get drunk will never be produced in Korea.
Demand for special treatment combined with rejection of universal values. This is an open demand for Koreans to not be held to a universal set of values. In this case he expects whites to continue to criticise other white for racism or sexism, but to give a free pass to Koreans. This is a relativist, arrogant, and ethno-supremacist demand that no one should take seriously. Alex Lee is also confused about economics again. That third world laborers are paid less is an economic matter decided by supply and demand in the labor market. However, the Korean behavior towards these workers, which includes beatings by employers, has no economic utility, and thus must simply be considered to be Korean cruelty.
There is a massive plank in the eye of Alex Lee. I would prefer that he remove it before he points out the speck in the eyes of his American “brothers”.
All you need to read to understand lil Alex Lee’s mindset are those three words in parentheses. Yet another Korean/kyopo upset that whitebread is laying the pipe to a Korean woman, i.e. his god-given property. Nothing could be more cliche or absolutely fucking boring than the 25 millionth adjoshi to have that chip on his shoulder.
I found it off-base as well. Since I’d already posted my opinions on Nomad’s thread (which Robert linked above), I decided not to bother repeating them.
Well, I think the problem here (and is usually the case with the issue of race and many North Americans difficuty in talking about it) is when people speak in absolutes when in fact, “all of the above” tends to be the right answer.
Our friend Alex, who started this whole debate a’spinnin’ again, confuses the fact of “white privilege” with whites having it unequivocally “better.” That’s not true, as being able to have an F-4 visa and having the same rights to work (or quit) as a Korean without affecting my visa status is certainly a concrete privilege. For my “full-blooded” Korean friends, the flip side of being unrealistically expected to be a perfect “Korean” is that you’re invited to all the special parties, so to speak. You’re an insider, like it or not. Whites aren’t.
But for whites, to deny the privilege that comes with being white and from the West is pretty silly. Ask the next brown man you see be socially invisible on the subway even as Koreans go up to my white American friends all the time to be English “friends.” Or do an experiment, like I did with a couple white buddies, of going up to similar places and comparing treatment by the wait staff. I ought to do that on videotape sometime.
In any case, both things are at work. I have a million (OK, rhetorically speaking) kyopo buds who get the shaft all the time because their face doesn’t match a Korean hagwon or language camp’s notion of a “real” American. Most recently, I had some pissant English conversation company trying to get me to do some morning tutoring and when I said I had a friend who had just come to Korea to do her “roots thang” with a double-dipping degree from Berkeley and Columbia, the contact sucked air through his teeth and said that would be “a problem.” Or the recruiter for the summer camp who got my number and wanted to get some of my “distinguished” friends. I told that person to take a flying f**k because the camp explicitly refused to take anyone who wasn’t white, and even kyopo friends looking for summer work with Ivy League credentials and near- Ph.D.’s needed not apply. So that’s frustrating. To say there’s “no discrimination against kyopos” is so far off base that I wonder if anyone believing that really lives in the same Korea I do.
On the other hand, whites are eternal outsiders here, are seen as walking dictionaries, and are otherwise treated as not “less” than human, but somehow “other.” Exoticized, Otherized, and socially boundes whites are, to use Yoda syntax. Is it all bad? No - frankly, that tends to result in easy pickings when it comes to the ladies (for many men), but there’s always a flip side: ask the white dude from the Midwest I once met at a party, with whom I had an amazing conversation, after we compared notes about this subject: he said he envied me, since I wasn’t dating in Korea and white, and I was like, “whigger, please” - but this guy, good looking and a fluent Korean speaker, kept saying that on the face of it, he had things “good” and yes, he had beautiful women as options all the time, but as a guy who actually wanted a “good” one, he still wasn’t “sticky.” Basically, he was a good roll in the hay for a few months, or the relationship before settling down with the Korean doctor/lawyer/rich guy from a SKY university, but he wasn’t marriage material, not for a “good” girl with sparkling credentials.
I’m not trying to generalize to others’ experiences, but triying to make a point: there’s a definite flip side to either being a kyopo “insider” or having white skin - and lest we strain ourselves fumbling for the who has it worst trophy, let’s all acknowledge the privilege of being native speakers of English coming from Powerful Passport Countries such as the USA or Canada. Ask a Pakistani or Malaysian factory worker whether they’d love to sit on their asses and make per hour what many of us would turn down with a snort and sense of being insulted. The very fact of the privilege that we get from being in this class of people gives us privileged entry to this society in ways none of us would get back in our own countries: from Dr. Linton being a medical and veritable superstar, down to Alex Lee, inexperienced and green as he is, writing columns for a national newspaper.
On that note, as much as I grumble and complain, I wouldn’t be able to make more here with my credentials than as a starting professor back home. The list could go on; point is, we’re all actually in the same boat, from the Korean perspective of the nice kid who wants to meet his new foreign teacher, the office worker who wants to practice for her TOEIC, or the seedy hagwon owner who really doesn’t care much about skin color as much as his bottom line and what moms seem to want.
So all this “who has it worse” stuff rings a bit like people in one of the few lifeboats from the Titanic complaining about their seat while the people from steerage envy us any one of our asses.
OK, got a bit carried awaythere, but you see my point, no? Speaking in absolutes like “No, they have got it unequivocally better!” just seems wildly unreal. I’ve got kyopo friends and white friends, and I’m neither. Let me just say that I both envy and “feel your pain” at times. Trust me - neither has it “better” across the board.
White privilege? Sure, I think if you’re really honest you can admit that it does exist in Korea. Anyone who denies that needs to wake up.
But there are also privileges for those on the other side of the spectrum and I’m sure over time Alex will come to recognize what they are as well. I’m sure such examples are instances non-Koreans complain about as well. (In fact I know they do and I’ve seen it on this very blog as well: Selective entrance into certain clubs based on whether or not you look Korean, “inclusion” vs. “exclusion” aspects of the culture, etc.)
There are also aspects of living in Korea that non-Koreans can justly complain about: Being the token white person, being treated as a monkey, being treated with little respect if you are fluent in the language but don’t look the part, etc.
To be fair, I think Alex’s statement “Korea, on the other hand, is still a country in awkward adolescence, trying desperately to make sense of a tragic and often undemocratic history” is very accurate and fair. At least he can recognize that while clearly there are many (including white people) who cannot.
I liked his essay and I thought it was an interesting perspective. Perhaps dues to the sensitive nature of the topic, a better way I would have printed it would be to have Kim’s opinion and then a counter-opinion and publish them side-by-side but I suppose the folks at the KT aren’t that innovative.
Having said that, no doubt they’d publish a counter-opinion to his essay if anyone is up to the job.
correction: “Non-Koreans” should probably be t”hose who don’t look Korean.” I’m never sure how to address that. Sorry!
God sorry not “kim”…I was talking to a Kim when I wrote that.
Interesting but finally unpersuasive, Metroman, because of your fixation on the concept of white privilege. Koreans discriminate against whites as non-Koreans. That Koreans differentially discriminate against whites relative to various other non-Koreans - Asians, Africans - and even inter sese, depending on place of origin and vis-a-vis the kyopos whom Koreans regard as sort of polluted quasi-tribesmen, doesn’t make them “privileged” in the sense in which a white person in the US may be privileged. Whites, if they are from North America, Western Europe, OZ or NZ, may be the house niggers of Korea; but they are still niggers here. (Russians generally seem to be regarded as fit at best for the stables.) This was brought home to me many years ago shortly after my arrival in Korea. I was walking downtown with my girlfriend (now wife) when I was stopped by a very excited middle-aged Korean white collar sort. He wanted my autograph. My girlfriend, whom he had not noticed was with me, decided to join the fun and amusedly asked him whom he thought I was. “The famous boxer, Marvin Hagler”, was the reply. I have a shaved head, but you can guess the rest.
Why do I think that as a person of color who happens to be white I wouldn’t get such a good reception were I to make such an observation about this 5000 year old adolescent?
“White privilege” is nothing more than a cheap canard.
To say that “white privilege” exists in Korea is as ludicrous as saying that “Korean privilege” exists in the U.S. Even by the definition of those who manufactured this insidious nonsense, “white privilege” exists only in Western nations.
I’d be interested to know what all these frustrated people want me to do, exactly. As the image of what seems to enjoy so little popularity among the bitter masses- white, male, resident in Korea, and a total asshole- it’s not clear what I could possibly do to satiate them. Enjoy white privilege, but feel guilty later? Or do they really just want us all to leave the peninsula, but realizing how asinine that sounds, they don’t say it in public? Maybe they just want to high-five me and buy me dinner, I’m not a mind reader- but neither are they so maybe all the conjecture about what “the others” experience should be dropped.
I think it was a dull essay from a dull perspective. If we want to talk about white fetishism, we can start with people assuming that we enjoy all sorts of ridiculous privileges. Does this kid have any white friends in Korea?
Speaking of canards, the theory of “white privilege” reminds me of anti-semitic canards of clannish Jews working in concert to disenfranchise non-Jews. In fact, the similarities to the anti-semitic canards are so striking that in many cases it just looks like they have replaced “Jew” with “white”.
So you decry higher salaries given to white grads, but then blame the same white grads for the discrimination?
It’s your adopted country people, Alex, that are at fault.
Whitey is just here making some money.
If you want Whitey to respect Koreans, start holding Koreans to the same standards with regard to racism as you expect from Whitey.
Given that I could get a position at university or college back home, I’d say my employer is getting a bargain at the rate they pay me…even more so when you compare my wages to the Korean professors’s.
Very good essay!!
Good at pointing out an insecure racist who wants to be treated special and wishes he could pull a Michael Jackson.
This is a cheesy debate. Those of us foreigners who have been here a while–whether kyopos or people of pallor or color–tend to figure out a way to fit in and make the best of our own particular situations. In short, we deal with it.
Kids, like the author of this article or the FOB teacher mentioned above, cry to mama when they find out life isn’t fair after all.
“White privilege? Sure, I think if you’re really honest you can admit that it does exist in Korea. Anyone who denies that needs to wake up.”
Jodi:
I believe to be honest but really did not notice anybody “worshipping” me in the ROK - however, I encountered a lot of hostility from a whole variety of Koreans there and elsewhere.
Okay, maybe the Koreans had their reasons for their behaviour, maybe I am not “white” enough for their taste…
But, as a matter of principle, I simply find the purported North American / Asian idea of the desirability of white skin and blond hair simply ludicrous. Far from being internationally accepted, it even runs counter to everything we have been taught over here in Europe.
Unreasonable Northern European people expose their bodies to the midday heat during their vacations in southern countries like Spain, Greece, the Dominican Republic, or Thailand, merely in order to get rid of their unattractive “whiteness”. They hold the staunch conviction that coming back from their holidays and still looking “white” will lay them open to universal criticism…
The most widespread ideal of an attractive male in Europe is the “Latin Lover Type” - and blond would-be actresses habitually dye their hair auburn to improve their chances of landing a star role.
White Privilege ?
Bla…
In Northern Europe (Germany, the Netherlands, Scandinavia) those with skin deemed too light and with hair deemed too blond are tainted with the reputation of being dim-witted.
An unfair racist prejudice, of course. But a deeply entrenched one, that’s for sure.
Alex seems pretty defensive and his complaints are cliche. The toilet paper on the tables being a point of contention or criticism seems contrived. I haven’t heard it mentioned in three years and before that it was not being complained about, only laughed at. Who would complain about something like that? It’s not like toilet paper is manufactured in sewers. It’s just paper for crying out loud.
People gotta remember that what isn’t true doesn’t really have an impact. It’s innocuous. When the criticism touches on the truth, that’s when we bristle.
I find it interesting how protective some people are of their ancestral country, not their native one.
First of all….the response to this essay was much as I had expected. It’s like the response much of white America will give when a Black Muslim leader gives a speech about race or the response much of black America will give when a white right-wing Republican comment presents his views on radio about African-Americans; both use the term “racism” and their supporting base go “right on!” while the other ethnic goes “bullsh*t!”
Second of all, as for certain posters (two come to mind) that have made disparaging remarks about the overall group of “kyopos” constantly….they are not really in a position to claim that Alex Lee is a racist or that he belongs to a group that is racist….when they themselves have consistently made racist comments about kyopos. One of them, in fact, has referred in a similar vein about Jews and THEIR loyalty to America like he has with kyopos. That, ladies and gentlemen, is called racism and hypocrisy on that person’s part. The other one, despite his being of partial Japanese descent, I need not comment on. His blog says it all.
Third, someone said they needed proof that kyopos face discrimination in Korea. He wrote:
“He says that Kyopo suffer prejudice in Korea, but there is little evidence for this. Kyopo have avenues open to them that are closed to whites, like job opportunities and social opportunities. They also have favorable visa conditions for simply being Kyopo. There is also no evidence that a English conversation school pays Kyopo that are born in America less than a white American.”
This, of course, is the same person who claimed there is no proof that Koreans suffered under Japanese rule as much as they claim they did. This despite the fact that I had my own family members suffer under Japanese rule in Korea. This despite the fact that there is sworn testimony by former comfort women of what they endured with the Japanese soldiers. Well, sir, let me tell you of MY experience, which is proof enough for me to make my assertions about discrimination against kyopos in Korea.
When I first got to Korea to live in the late nineties, I tried to get into a financial securities position. But as the impending IMF crisis was coming, I was forced to look for English-teaching jobs. So I went to hagwons like Pagoda in Chong-no-3ga. I was told by them that I could get a certain pay….but that I would not get housing because I could only get that if I was only if I was white.
I looked around for some time and heard the same thing from various hagwons and universities. Housing and better pay would be provided if I was white. Never mind that I spoke a certain amount of Korean and most of these white people who WERE working there could not speak ANY Korean.
I even once got a lecture by a random white Canadian I met at a Burger King near Ewha Women’s University. He kind of arrogantly told me that as I was a kyopo and spoke limited Korean at the time (even though it was better than HIS Korean)….someone like me would always have a harder time getting a teaching job than someone like him. But he was right.
I eventually learned my Korean while doing consulting work…..became fluent…got a job teaching at a university (among the guys, 3 kyopos….6 whites)….and eventually got a job in finance.
But the point is….who is daft enough to claim that kyopos are denied job opportunities because they are not white? So because there is no evidence that satisfies you…that is supposed to mean I didn’t see and experience what I did?
Amazing.
I WITNESSED this and EXPERIENCED this firsthand. Yes, kyopos are discriminated because they are not white. Yet on THIS board, I have to read that kyopos have it good and are whining about nothing and that whites (the same ones who complain about kyopos)are the ones with the true legitimate gripes.
JK -
Please (!!) see my comments above.
I think the key problem here is that people (kyopos in particular) are comparing how easy it is to get an English teaching job. An English teaching job, for crying out loud. This is sort of like saying a midget or giant has an easier time getting a job at the circus, while conventionally “normal” people have a harder time.
The comparison is racist because the premise is that whites want to stay in English teaching jobs (as if blacks in the US want to stay in the sports and entertainment biz).
The reason kyopos are discriminated against in English teaching positions is because non-Koreans are being discriminated against in society at large. Kyopos are considered “one of us” by the people doing the hiring. A kyopo who speaks no Korean and has an English undergrad degree from an American institution has a harder time getting an English teaching job than a white man who is a Korean citizen and is from a family that has lived in Korean for generation and was completely educated in Korea precisely because the white man is a freak show of sorts, since we’re talking about the teaching of a _foreign_ language, and that Korean-racism-based image sells to the students who pay for hagwon classes. The fresh-off-the-boat kyopo is “one of us” the very moment he lands, yet the white man, well, he’d better maintain his English because what else would he be good for?
I have not doubt it is “easier” being a non-Korean speaking white man in Korea than a non-Korean speaking kyopo male (from an English speaking country) if - and ONLY IF - we’re making the comparison about people only in Korea for a very few years. If we’re comparing two men who are here for 2,3 years for a “Korea experience,” to look at the society largely from the outside then go their merry way home and never become fully participating members of Korean society. Try comparing those two after they’ve both lived in the country 50 years, and then compare their children.
I would never expect a gyopo to even begin to understand what it’s like to be a non-Korean living a normal life (not the “expat life”). Frankly I wouldn’t know where to begin - since if I were to make a list it would go on forever - but if you’re impressed by “EXPERIENCE,” how’s this: During my undergraduate biology class (at a Korean uni) I (white) was asked to stand up in the middle of our class of 300 while the prof pointed at me and explained how ethnicitites adapted through evolution. I majored in Korean lit at a Korean uni and when I tell people that (and my pronunciation is just fine), I am invariably asked if I know how to read Korean novels, and, sometimes, even if I can “actually read han’geul,” as if it’s okay to ask a physics phd if he has memorized his multiplication tables.
Kyopos are discriminated against in English teaching jobs but you need to ask just why that is. Whites are _foreign_. They’re not even refered to as “white” (백인) in regular Korean discourse, they’re called “foreigner” (외국인). Imagine being called “foreigner” all you life. There isn’t even a term for a “Korean” who is not ethnically Korean. Not a problem for the short-term expat, but the white man’s children will be called “foreigner” as well, and so will theirs. Contemplate going through life knowing that. Still, as I said in my first comment way above, I still don’t think Korean racism is all that bad and serious.
I think orancky’s comment is fair and accurate but I think his experiences relate to a minority of whites/foreigners in Korea. I would venture to guess there are not many like him in this country and so not many people can identify with what he is saying, although we can sympathize.
I also think that while it is impossible for “gyopos” to understand some of the things he talks about, it is also impossible for whites to understand some of the frustrations “gyopos” write about.
I also believe there are differing views on this thread of what defines the said privilege Alex refers to. Some seem to think it is related to being “worshipped” while I believe that it is related to having some benefits based on the color of one’s skin. I’ve experienced instances of this first hand outside of the English teaching industry I but won’t write about it until I leave Korea and have a new job in the U.S.
As I said before, I think both whites and those with Korean blood in them will experience benefits in Korean society based on the politics of their skin and none of us should feel any guilt about this … Korean society should.
And while some people feel Alex’s article didn’t recognize that and seem to think that he is attacking whites, I read it as him criticizing Korean society…and I think society does deserve criticism for such tendencies.
Having said all this, when will the IP ban on my home computer be lifted, Marmot? I think it was unfairly enforced against me. Either that or a troll had my IP in the past thus resulting in the blacklist.
I think the key problem here is that people (kyopos in particular) are comparing how easy it is to get an English teaching job. An English teaching job, for crying out loud. This is sort of like saying a midget or giant has an easier time getting a job at the circus, while conventionally “normal” people have a harder time.
Wow, I am sorry to hear that teaching English in Korea makes you feel like a freak. I guess I’d feel like a freak also if I had to go to a foreign country and be paid sums of money to teach a language that I’ve only spoken, read, and written for my entire life, despite the fact that I only have a useless liberal arts degree. Man, I feel so marginalized thinking such an possibility could even exist!
#38:
The problem with Oranckay’s rather lengthy and convoluted claims with regards to Gyopos and their experiences in the motherland is that they are curiously devoid of any cites or supporting evidence — anecdotal or otherwise.
Baseless statements and distorted perceptions notwithstanding, I seriously doubt Oranckay has any Gyopo friends or interviewed any significant number of Koreans from other countries to be able to support his very narrow-minded suppositions and perceptions of them.
Nevetheless, he seems undeterred in proffering his opinions as facts while portraying himself as an expert in all things Korean — including having keen insight into the mind of overseas Koreans.
Clairvoyance?
ESP?
Poseur extraordinaire.
Jodi -
Thank you for your kind words.
I expect you already know that white people who laugh at the possibility something like white priviledge exists can be rather annoying. What’s annoying from a very similar type of person, who happens to be gyopo (and I think there’s little difference between the attitude you see in the comment by H.Kim and the whites you’ve seen all your life who laugh at talk of white priviledge), is what you see in H.Kim’s commet #41. I agree with Alex Lee, JK, you, and others that gyopos are discriminated against in certain contexts, and yet I am the one singled out. Wonder why that would be.
I don’t see the difference between a white person who doesn’t see that there are times he enjoys certain “perks,” as Alex Lee said, and a gyopo who doesn’t see that he enjoys certain benefits for not being the object of the same racism that means perks for the white guy. Each type deserves the other.
BTW,
teaching English in Korea is not an option for “Western” expatriates (White or not), whose native language does not happen to be English.
So where is my goddamn privilege ?
White privilege IS a myth, even if some whites do drink the Kool-aid.
Netizen Kim wrote:
“Wow, I am sorry to hear that teaching English in Korea makes you feel like a freak. I guess I’d feel like a freak also if I had to go to a foreign country and be paid sums of money to teach a language that I’ve only spoken, read, and written for my entire life, despite the fact that I only have a useless liberal arts degree. Man, I feel so marginalized thinking such an possibility could even exist!”
I taught English for almost ten years, and I did feel like a freak. Hakwon teachers work long hours, often split shifts, and are not respected by society at large. I was glad to get a more humane schedule and a little more respect after moving up to university. My salary and status were bumped up further after I switched into K-12 teaching. Plus, my fourth graders don’t ask inappropriate personal questions like “How old are you?” “How much money do you make?” and “Why aren’t you married?” I’m not complaining about Koreans at large here, but Korean university students who ask personal questions to their foreign teachers, questions never asked to their Korean teachers. I don’t regret going to Korea, but I do regret staying so long.
Sonagi,
Why do you regret staying so long?
Sonagi:
And for those of us who ARE married:
“Why haven’t you got any children yet ?”
But then, I guess, being asked all these intimate questions should be considered a privilege…
Sonagi, every kyopo has heard the phrase “if you dont like it here, then go back to your own country”, usually said by whites whenever a minority in America complains about something. Sometimes that is said even if the minority didnt complain about anything.
I guess in your case, that is what you did.
As a kyopo who watched his parents truly suffer, struggle to learn English, trying to make a living operating businesses in some of the most dangerous parts of inner-city America, the various grievances of expats in Korea seem laughable.
When I read Alex Lee’s article, I didnt think he meant to spark a dick measuring contest about who’s got more discrimination or what have you. Basically his was a polite way of saying: “sucks to be a minority? feel like a freak surrounded by hordes of people who dont look like you, talk like you, think like you? Yes…btw, welcome to the club. But as far as minorities go, white expats in Korea are still at the top of the food chain…so please golly please…STFU already!”
“As a kyopo who watched his parents truly suffer, struggle to learn English, trying to make a living operating businesses in some of the most dangerous parts of inner-city America, the various grievances of expats in Korea seem laughable.”
Being assaulted several times for no reason at all (as in my case) is not laughable…
“surrounded by hordes of people who do not…talk like you, think like you”
Sure, this applies to first generation immigrants to the US, such as your parents, no doubt about that.
But you, Netizen Kim, do not seem to be one of these, am I right ?
By the way, my flag notwithstanding, I live in Germany, not in the US.
“One gyopo’s frustrations”
Yeah, I’m tempted to vent my own frustrations about my life in the ROK…
Sorry about that.
Okay, there were good moments, as well.
“Sonagi, every kyopo has heard the phrase ‘if you dont like it here, then go back to your own country’, usually said by whites whenever a minority in America complains about something. Sometimes that is said even if the minority didnt complain about anything.
Amen to that, Netizen Kim!!
oranckay,
I did read what you read. I am sure you did experience racism. Your experience in the classroom at the Korean university sounds distasteful indeed.
But my comment in #37 was more of a response to two certain posters who made comments #15, 16, and 18. I am sure there were things in THEIR comments you found, at the very least, questionable or of which you even disagreed. (No need to answer about that one way or the other.) Anyway, this was not an attack of you.
As a kyopo who watched his parents truly suffer, struggle to learn English, trying to make a living operating businesses in some of the most dangerous parts of inner-city America, the various grievances of expats in Korea seem laughable.
Netizen Kim,
Spare me! The United States is the best thing that ever happened to you and your family. You are disingenuous at best!
railwaycharm, you really don’t get it.
I could say back to you now, “Spare me! Korea is the best thing that ever happened to you (and your family).” And even though YOU may not agree with it….if I see you working and saving money and getting a special status that ALLOWS you to work speaking your own native English, a status you would never have in your own country…then I might be right in my statement. And I might be tempted to tell you and other white expats to stop whining.
But then, I’ve learned on this thread and others not to question the complaints about white expats in Korea since I am not one. Yet quite a few white expats on this blog DO question the challenges we kyopos say we experienced growing up in the West.
Having said all this…how do you feel when you hear us kyopos talk about our struggles in the US? Yes, the US has been very good to us. But we did have our challenges, and just because you deny this doesn’t mean we didn’t have those challenges. Likewise, Korea has been very good to you. That does not mean you didn’t have your challenges like we kyopos did in the US.
JK - Railwaycharm:
Both your statements are correct and not really in contradiction with one another.
Bluejives wrote:
Wow…they must have had it really bad in Korea.
JK, and others,
The view expressed by dogbertt above seems to me to be not that unlike what Alex Lee is doing in the sense you see an expression of entitlement or exclusive ownership.
At the end of the article he talks about an Italian-American’s experience in Italy and how he can finally understand that person.
It’s the sense of entitlement that’s so patronizing here, the idea that one owns the “old country” like no others can, and therefore the returning ethnic brother wants to protect the old country from the irreverent outsiders who don’t have the same rights to talk about his land of ethnic origin.
Korea is a real place, a real country, not some ethnic Disneyland. It is worth more than the sum of its value as a source of ethnic empowerment, and it is not something a gyopo kid on an American playground gets to show to the other kids while not letting them actually touch it.
What business does Alex Lee have telling “expats” (a word I hate because it’s a verb (expatriate) and implies it’s a temporary state of being) what they can complain about? Who does he think he is? If they are saying something factually incorrect or that he can help them understand, it would be nice of him to talk them down based on a deep knowledge of Korea (which I sense he doesn’t have, since he would see the why the “perks” are racist), but since he can’t challenge what they say (since he doesn’t deny korea has racism, has things to complain about, etc) he says they’re white and should appreciate all they enjoy because for being white. Go to any English-speaking summer semester at a Korean university and you will see plenty of off-base complaints and condescending comments about Korea by gyopos. If I were to challenge them for what they’re actually saying, for the facts, that’s because I think they’re worth my time. But what would I be if I said, “You all should stop bitching and think of how good you’ve got it, you could never understand what it’s like to be an ethnic minority here”? They can’t understand what it’s like, but that doesn’t mean I have a place telling them they should stop complaining _just_ because their ethnic Koreans, this is _my_ home, I’ve been here longer, etc.
oranckay,
Before I begin, let me ask: You are comparing teaching English at a university or hagwon to a job at freakshow “circus”? You have many English teachers among the readers of this blog…why insult their profession? (Actually, I suppose I just unintentionally insulted circus workers.)
Sense of entitlement? No, it’s more like having your own family (since we kyopos’ families DID come from Korea) insulted by someone outside of the family.
To illustrate my point, oranckay, let me give you this (truly fantastic) hypothetical example:
Let’s say you and I are trying to get jobs on your father’s farm in the US. The only skill required is that we speak Korean and teach the other laborers, who happen to be white, how to speak Korean. We both apply. We both can speak Korean equally well, let’s say.
Your father hires me and gives me housing because…I LOOK Korean. You get hired also but get lower pay than me and no housing. Your father explains that it’s good for business and hopes you understand. You don’t like it but you understand.
Soon, I start complaining about your father and your other family members because they are not treating me that well always. You may have had similar experiences with your family members, but as they are your family, you try to be understanding and generally are, though you also b*tch every now and then about them.
Soon, I start to b*tch about my housing, saying that your father and other family members are corrupt and suck for not giving me better housing. I say it’s because they are racist against me because of my Korean background. Soon, I start to complain about white people, even white people living in other countries (white kyopos, haha). You, who didn’t get housing, look at me with an ironic look on your face as I complain about the very perks I would not have gotten from your family had I NOT been of Korean descent. Yet here I am complaining day in and day out of racism by your family.
My complaints especially start to irk you because in addition to complaining about the very perks I got BECAUSE of my Korean face (due to racism, I claim), my complaints are about something of which you are very sensitive….your family. When my complaints are legitimate, you go “okay, I see where you’re coming from.” But when I seem to go overboard and when I cry racism because every now and then your father gives you a pat on the back because you are his son (something I don’t get and which I stew about in my free housing he provides me) or he gives me a glare for no apparent reason that you don’t get, you feel like saying, “Uh, maybe you should cool it just a little. You don’t really have it that bad. Cut my father a break. He’s admittedly not as open-minded as you, but you are also overreacting.” Now maybe you’re wrong about your second assertion that I don’t have it that bad. But it would be understandable if you were tempted to say that to me (in this hypothetical situation).
I think THAT was what Alex was trying to get at. We kyopos don’t have some exclusive right to Korea….but for a people that seem to have less doors being opened to us in Korea than white Westerners in terms of work and, as the Metropolitan put it, “superstar” status in whatever field, like Dr. Linton in medicine, it sure seems that those very same white Westerners do complain a lot.
Just my opinion since you presented yours.
JK,
I would gladly have traded my white face for F-4 visa eligibility. You have no idea how golden that is. Because I am single and not of Korean ethnicity, my right to stay in Korea was tied to my annual E-2 visa. When I first arrived in Korea, the E-2 had a maximum of nine years and has now been extended to 18 years. E-2 isn’t just for hakwon teachers but any foreign language isntructor who does not hold the rank of professor. Had I remained in Korea, I would have exhausted my eligibility at the ripe old age of 45, 20 years away from retirement. There is age discrimination, and I realized that the longer I waited, the harder it would be to repatriate. I didn’t leave Korea because I didn’t like Korean culture or didn’t like being a minority. I left Korea because Korea does not give green cards or make possible permanent residency for foreign nationals not married to Koreans. Long-term security is not important to young people fresh out of college but it is to experienced workers planning for retirement.
I respect the hardships and sacrifices of Korean immigrants who operate small businesses in tough neighborhoods. At least those immigrants receive from America in return the legal right to put down roots and establish a life. They don’t even have to give up their Korean citizenship. With a green card, they can do everything but vote and hold office. They can even get public assistance if they’ve met residency requirements.
It’s funny to hear Western gyopos who can stay in Korea on F-4 visas b*tch about white privilege; as an ethnic Korean citizen of a developed country, you enjoy the right of long-term stay and free agent status in the job market, a right denied to single non-ethnic Koreans and ethnic Koreans from poor countries like China and the Soviet Union.
JK -
Thank you for simplifying things, because this is exactly the sense of entitlement I am talking about. I am not a guest of YOUR (singular) country and YOUR culture, as if I am on YOUR father’s farm. You, too, are engaging in the same racism Korea has problems with when you suggest a white person is by definition a guest of your family.
My family “DID” come from France, Germany, and Italy. As much as it may feel like I’ve returned to the Warm and Loving Arms of the Motherland to go to a town where the family has history, I don’t yell at the Koreans who insult those countries when they do so without basis and furthermore (and this is key) I don’t take the ethnic Koreans who live in those cultures and lump them into one big generalized group and tell even the latter group is a migrant worker on my father’s farm. If I see Korean tourists who don’t know those cultures insulting them to feel superior - and it is not hard to find such commentary on the net if you look - I just laugh. My countires of ethnic origin don’t need me to protect them and you are patronizing Korea to think it needs you to protect it from the expats.
I still don’t see the difference between an expat who rants on and on about Korea while not seeing how he enjoys certain colonial priviledges and a gyopo who is so imperialist he decides he needs to tell people what or what not they should be grateful for.
“It’s funny to hear Western gyopos who can stay in Korea on F-4 visas b*tch about white privilege”
Why so? I don’t want to reveal TOO much personal info, but I actually tried to get the F-4 visa in my last year of Korea around 6 years ago. I was told I could get it…..after I served in the ROK military. I was like “WTF????” After all, I had been born in the US and had spent the first twenty-something years of my life in the US. But a new law had been enacted whereby a Korean-American male, if he is born in another country but his father was still a citizen of Korea at the time of his birth, had to renounce his Korean citizenship before the age of 17. Well, being born in the US and living in the US up until I was twenty-something….I never even KNEW I had Korean citizenship. and by the time I found out…..I was told I couldn’t renounce it until AFTER I had done my mandatory service in the ROK military. Thus, my last work visa could not be processed….until I served that stint in Korea. (Ironically, my kyopo friends who were born in Korea but immigrated to the US as children were exempt because they had CANCELED their Korean citizenship when they got US citizenship; I, on the other hand, was born with both citizenships, though I didn’t know about the Korean one until it was too late).
So facing a choice between serving the armed forces of another country other than my own (my “own” being the US) or leaving Korea, I left Korea. And thank God I left when I did; other US-born kyopos like myself were forced to serve in the ROK military.
Oh yeah, sonagi, none of the white Americans I knew in Korea faced a situation like mine. Yep, we really really privileged Korean-Americans and Korean-Canadians. We had it so good compared to you white expats, huh?
oranckay,
If you think I feel ENTITLED to anything based on my hypothetical example, then I must wonder about your reading comprehension skills. Just because I feel a strong sense of emotional attachment to the country of my forefathers does not mean I feel ENTITLED to anything. And when white expats, who do have a special status in Korea and who have doors open to them that are barred to kyopos, and yet these same white expats STILL complain excessively about Korea, I think it’s okay for the kyopo to think to himself, “These guys need to cool it with their b*tching.” Now WHAT about what I just said implies ENTITLEMENT? I can’t speak for other kyopos, but I and my friends made the most of our stay in Korea despite the fact that we didn’t have certain doors open to us that were open for white expats. Did I once say I was ENTITLED to anything?
Amazing how some people see what they want to see….
JK,
I am sorry about your complicated legal problem, but it has nothing to do with racism or privilege. You didn’t know, but what about your parents? Your father must have entered your name on his family register or the military wouldn’t have caught up with you. New laws aren’t enacted in secret. Even before the internet, Korean language newspapers and word of mouth have kept the Korean-American community informed.
JK wrote:
“And when white expats, who do have a special status in Korea and who have doors open to them that are barred to kyopos, and yet these same white expats STILL complain excessively about Korea, I think it’s okay for the kyopo to think to himself, “These guys need to cool it with their b*tching.””
Excessive b*tching about petty problems is annoying period, no matter who does it. As I mentioned in a much earlier post, Koreans living in relative luxury in China - cheap housing, cheap food, maids to cook and clean - found plenty of reasons to whine, and their whining was not well received by ethnic Korean Chinese.
It’s perfectly cool and okay for the gyopo to think “these guys need to cool it with their b*tching” to himself. Plenty of “foreigners” think so as well. Like I’ve said, those guys can be quite annoying.
But writing “You all have it much better than us so enough already” in a newspaper column is insulting and just silly, because the gyopo in question (Alex Lee) is doing the VERY SAME THING - forgetting all the perks he enjoys, even if they are different perks.
Words of wisdom—getting a white person to acknowledge white privilege = FUTILE EXERCISE. give it up, keep it moving.
JK, why do you think doors open for whitey and not you? The reason why I am here is KOREANS want a white face in the roll. The doors slam shut because of your people, not mine!
I have some Korean-American friends here and they really do work for less. As far as their priveleges, I don’t know that the doors that are open to them are ones I’d like to go through.
I think there are those who may have lived in the US who still don’t understand it. The US has one of the strongest middle classes ever to have existed. Poor people are too busy surviving to promote change. Rich people don’t want change. Only the middle class can show irritation and sway the powers that be. We are raised to complain. Bred to complain. If I were back home I’d be complaining there. In fact, I’m not there and I’m still complaining about things back there. If I see something f’d up here, I will complain. If it ruffles some feathers, all the better.
I’m sorry that Kyopos have it tough. It wasn’t me that set this up. Korean business owners and parents set this up. You got a beef, take it up with them. I can’t help it that being the white bread teacher makes me a commodity. I like it here, but it doesn’t mean I’m going to shut up while wrongs are committed.
I’m gonna keep on complaining. And you’re perfectly welcome to complain about my complaining.