Hey, who said the Hankyoreh can’t sympathize with Imperial Japanese war criminals [Hankyoreh Shinmun, English]? Or at least when the criminals are Korean. You guys want an apology and reparations from the Japanese government? You should count yourselves lucky you weren’t hanged, you murdering bastards!
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66 Comments
What happened to the Korean war criminals at Korean
War and at Vietnam War?
OK, ponta, I guess this is where I should start shouting “insufficient documentary evidence” or begin attacking the credibility of witnesses.
But I won’t.
To answer your question, nothing. And your point is?
Robert Koehler
thanks.
My point is just I was curious. Do Korean people tun a blind eye to the korean war criminals at Vientam and Korean war as they “sympathize with Imperial Japanese war criminals “if they are Koreans？
“To answer your question, nothing. And your point is?”
So nothing happened to the war criminals thouth there were civilian victims. They were not even tried. Is that correct?
“I guess this is where I should start shouting “insufficient documentary evidence” or begin attacking the credibility of witnesses.”
Oh I see, did you want to relate it to the issue of comfort women? A bit off the topic, but since you commented….
In case of comfort women, there is no witness
who testified that Japanese military officers/police kidnapped Korean women to make them prostitutes. Remember, most of Korean people
in urban area didn’t know cofort women according to under the black umbrella, and according to Seju newspaper, nobody witnessed Japanese military officers kidnapped women.
In case of Korean war criminals at say, Vietnam, there are survivers at Vietnam and it is reported by for instance, Hankyoreh 21/May 1999 no 256
http://www.altasia.org/hangyore/hangyore99256.htm
(in Japanese)
Hankyoreh sums up the witneess’s account.
Civilians(mostly women and children) were gathered and Korean soldiers fired machinegun
After machine gunning and pushed civilians into the house, they set fire on the houses, burning the the survivors and the dead.
They broke the head and neck of the kids and cut the head or limbs off and burned them.
After raping women, they killed them. they tread the belly of the expecting woman until the fetus break open, etc….
If you think they are not grounded on the fact, I think you should argue for it.
I don’t understand why you won’t begin attacking the credibility of witness even in the case where you believe otherwise.
Do you want to just blame anybody anyway who are suspicious of guilty>. Is that what justice is?
(Sorry a bit off topic comment. you can delete it if you want.)
Oh, come on Ponta, you know that’s what you wanted with your comment.
I mean, I’m glad Korea’s unwillingness to confront its past makes you feel better about the LDP’s unwillingness to confront Japan’s in an honest and sincere fashion.
Ponta’s pattern.
What about Korean pimps?
Comfort women knew what they were doing. They were prostitutes.
What about Korean comfort women in China, North Korea, South Korea, USA, Australia, Canada?
What about Korean war criminals from the Vietnam War?
What about Korean guys who hate Japan, but love Japanese porn and products? All Koreans love Japanese porn.
What about current Korean women being whores? 20% of South Korean women said they participated in prostitution. Here’s a link.
Korea wanted Japan to take it.
Sounds a hell of a lot like…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcCohl88nQc
Note: I found this on youtube, by typing Korean, Japanese. Try it yourself.
Does that sound like something you and your ” I hate korea” buddies in Japan like to say?
Well, first, Japan being a democracy, I don’t see how the LDP manages to win 90% of the time. Almost like a communist country in election results. Japan being “liberal”, I don’t see why that’s tied to sex only. As for Korea wanting to be as liberal as Japan, I think Koreans would want to abandone someone from their family in a similar situation. They probably wouldn’t mind if someone else’s kid was doing it, though.
Japan came with at least 5000 armed troops equipped with gunboats and machine guns, cannons, and rifles. Japan opened up to the West for a much smaller force. And Japan was fresh off finishing off both Russia and China in wars, to emerge victorious. Korean Queen was murdered by the Japanese for plotting to seek Russian influence. If you believe kimsoft, (I do), they were nice enough to stick a sword in here genitals. There was no military threat?
From the article, I find this kind of jacked up,
Same crap they pulled on members of the Yi dynasty family. That’s why one of them branched off to the US, to tend a liquor store. Could you imagine that, Ponta? He was ONCE a relative of the Imperial Japanese Emperor? Now or at sometime, reduced to mind a liquor store, working 12 hours a day, with a gun under the cash register in some run down neighborhood that no one wants their cars stuck in. Could you imagine a Japanese Emperial relative doing that in the US?
I can’t receive you well, because you and your kind are saying
Koreans are whores.
Koreans lie about everything.
Everything Japan did to Korea, Korea wanted it.
Even if Japan wronged Korea, it was all paid and apologized for fully.
Don’t ever thank me again. I won’t thank you, either. I think that was your pet-peeve about exchanging conversation with Koreans.
How was the Aussie PM’s visit to Japan, by the way? Abe’s US visit in April is coming up.
Robert, just delete the comfort woman stuff, then delete my comment to. This thread is already derailed.
I like how Ponta cited a Hankyoreh article as evidence that Korea is ignoring the crimes of its past.
Ponta’s initial comment isn’t necessarily impertinent. I recall local Korean press articles about atrocities in Viet Nam perpetrated by Korean troops. I also recall that the thrust of those articles - like the Hanky’s attempted exoneration of Korea’s WWII war criminals - is that “the Divil made ‘em do it” - in this instance, the Great Satan US. The Korean national mythology of perpetual victimizaton means never having to accept moral responsibility.
“What happened to the Korean war criminals at Korean and at Vietnam War”
Koreans are making efforts to track down the criminals of No Gun Ri massacre because the criminals are evil Americans.
But when it’s about Korean criminals, they just shut their mouth.
Getting back on topic…
This whole Korean war criminals fiasco is really sordid. It particularly annoys me since my grandfather fought in the philipines (he wasn’t a pow thankfully, or I probably wouldn’t be here.)
Koreans had a terrible reputation for viciousness in the pacific, over and above that of their japanese masters. I was told not long back about a british guy who witnessed a korean guard line up a bunch of Australian pows and execute them by bayonetting them in the anus.
Even the Korean “Truth Commision” which exonerated 83 of them of wrong-doing because of the climate of occupation at the time (this process was totally opaque) didn’t dispute that their crimes were commited of their own volition, not by direct order. Not to mention the fact that many of them volunteered for their posts (something that has been covered here in detail in the past).
In other words, these guys were scumbags of the highest order, forgiven because of their ethnicity - their sins notwithstanding.
How they can petition both the Japanese government for treating them unequally to their pure blood japanese “peers” and also seek sympathy from Korea for their “forced mobilisation” on the other is beyond me. What about their victims?
I really hope the Australian RSL and other representatives of their victims weighs in on this at some point.
As the author said, they should be thankful they weren’t hung.
Japanese must have taught that to the Koreans. They shut their mouths for 60 years.
Ponta’s
“the korean war criminals at Vientam and Korean war”
is interesting in that he’s willing to quote Korean papers (left wing Korean papers that are always discredited when it comes to accusations against Americans and Japanese) to hold up as “evidence”.
Do you have any kind of proof other then these, which are really documentations? I haven’t seen any.
wjk, this is not an indictment of “Koreans” as a whole - it is a matter of a small number of them who were vicious and brutal (and volunteers). Blaming Japan for their crimes, many of them commited (as I have already mentioned) of their own volition and not under direct duress is disingenious to say the least.
Why are you turning this into a partisan (or ethnic) issue?
For Vietnam War, whatever ROK soldiers did wrong was wrong, but they were good soliders in their own rights.
They did not, however, have a military brothel of Vietnamese women who saw ROK military medical docs for STD checks and they were not recruited to work in “factory” jobs. Nor were they paid the South Korean “won” for their services.
They were wronged in your favorite Japanese-style, claims of “individual” war crimes.
Someday, this will be dealt with. I’m sure of that.
The Japanese were stupid enough to use govt money and military resources to carry out their war rape, and they will pay for it. Even if they tried to destroy or distort the evidence.
The sympathy for the devil exists only because these people were neglected by both the Japanese and the Koreans. Stateless and hated by all that consisted of your identity. The Korean War saved a lot of them, though. If you believe Kimsoft. I do. A lot of them regained the spotlight, because anyone who is not a commy was serviceable, even a blatant pro Japanese.
sorry, I was just responding to our Japanese friends. Not trying to turn it into a partisan issue.
I’ll shut up, and cease comments on this thread.
Personally, I don’t care much for these men, while I have some sympathy for the Yi dynasty family’s progeny who were caught stateless because of what their grandfather’s top civil servants (Dae Shins) decided to do under Japanese military pressure that just squashed the Dong Hak, Chinese, and Russians.
Ponta, I cannot read Japanese. Could you give me the name of the place, and date, mentioned in the article? FOr ther ecord, I spend 6 months on a Special Forces A Team (A-502) whose area abutted that of the Koren 9th Inf Div. During my six months there in 1968, there were ZERO Korean atrocities that I am aware of, and we had intimate contact with the Vietnamese authorities. There were some atrocities committed by individual Korean soldiers during the war, to include rape and murder, and those Korean soldiers were tried and in some cases executed for their crimes (by the Korean military justice system). So the theory that the Korean military simply shrugged off atrocities, or that no one was ever punished for them, is patently false. Likewise, the idea that Korean “mercenaries” routinely committed war crimes in Vietnam is false, but popular among the modern Korean left wing.
wjk
“If you believe Kimsoft,I do.”
You are joking, aren’t you?
lirelou
Here is what I found.
“1,004 victims allegedly massacred by the South Korean troops during the 6-week operation in February 1966 in Binh Khe district, the place now called Tay Son district”
“The stories of South Korean troops’ atrocities in the Vietnam War is nothing new to the Vietnamese.”
VIETNAM, NEWS ANALYSIS, JANUARY 15, 2000
http://www.vietquoc.com/jan15-00.htm
Robert
thanks.
“Oh I see, did you want to relate it to the issue of comfort women?”
“Oh, come on Ponta, you know that’s what you wanted with your comment.”
I am afraid you are imagining too much.
Did I mention comfort women on this thread?
I was just asking what happened to Korean criminals. What is your reasoning to your conlusion that I wanted to relate the issue of comfort women to this topic except I and you talked about comfort women on another thread .Just because we talked about it on another thread , it does not follow I want to keep talking about it on this thread which has little to do with the issue of comfort women.
And it is you who seemed to want to relate it to the issue of comfort women. As it turned out my guess was right.
wjk
Thanks
I am willing to answer your comment 5, but it seems it is too way off the topic, but if the moderator allows me to , I am glad to respond.
Either delete wjk’s comment or give me a green light to commnent on his comment 5.
Haisan
Thanks
“I like how Ponta cited a Hankyoreh article as evidence that Korea is ignoring the crimes of its past.”
That is not my point. I was not using it as evidene for that. I asked if Koreans were ignoreing the crimes of its past because I din’t know what happened to Korean war criminals at Korea war and at Vietnam War.
I was pointing out, in response to Robert’s comment 2, the differnce between the case of comfort women and the case of atrocity at Vietnam by the article. In the former case, there is
no witness that Japanese military systematically abducted Korean women, In the latter case there are those who witnessed the incident.
Another point is if you have overwhelming evidences to counter the witness, why do you have to believe everything the witness said?
I guess Lirelou might have a lot to say about it. Suppose he has overwhelming counter argument against the witness’s account, why will Robert not “start shouting “insufficient documentary evidence” or begin attacking the credibility of witnesses”? That is another point I wanted to say.
lirelou
Thanks
“Could you give me the name of the place, and date, mentioned in the article?”
I think the best way is to search for the archive since I gave the year and # of the publication.
(May 6th 1999, #256/1999年 05月 06日 第256号 ).
But I’ll try.
(1)
In 1964 Oct 14th south part of Vietnam, at Linh Son temple in Pan ran (?)(パンラン) area, Korean soldiers machine guned at monks.
(2)
In 1965, Dec 22th, Bindinson Quinyon city(?)ビンディンソン、クィニョン市, I described this case above.
Ponta…
The article said that the Australians had not found sufficient evidence to punish him, which to me indicated that perhaps then he was railroaded (no doubt the intention of the article), but I take anything like that from known biased media (left or right) with a grain of salt. Right so it turns out, as I did not know this;
The guy got off extremely easy.
As far as Ponta, why bother responding? It’s like debating with a holocaust denier. He takes one example that is the exception and attempts to disprove the rule. “Look, this bit of desert is perfectly flat, it is well documented that there is no curvature over 50 miles whatsoever. Therefore the Earth is not round.” Conversely, such logic is always rejected in regard to history that portrays Japan in a negative light. But so is the macro type. Replace the flat Earth theory with “what comfort women?” and “what forced name chages,” etc. and you have him in a nutshell. Again, like arguing with a holocaust denier.
Before someone gets technical, replace “The Earth is not round” with “The Earth is not an oblate spheroid.”
“the publication.
(May 6th 1999, #256/1999年 05月 06日 第256号 ).”
Again, Ponta quotes Hankyoreh which he would dismiss if they wrote articles about comfort women. But no same amount of doubts nor same amount of scrutiny here, if it pertains to Korean war criminals, just take it as gospel truth.
(1)
“In 1964 Oct 14th south part of Vietnam, at Linh Son temple in Pan ran (?)(パンラン) area, Korean soldiers machine guned at monks.”
How can this be possible, considering that there were no Korean soldiers in Vietnam, in 1964. Koreans only started arriving in 1965, and only started combat in 1966.
“http://www.vietquoc.com/jan15-00.htm”
Again, what’s the source? A Vietnamese source, quoting Hankyoreh and BBC, who quoted from Hankyoreh. That’s not “documentation”.
Robert
“I mean, I’m glad Korea’s unwillingness to confront its past makes you feel better about the LDP’s unwillingness to confront Japan’s in an honest and sincere fashion.”
I don’t understand what made you think Korea’s unwilling to confront its past made me feel better. Does someone’s unwillingness to confront Japan’s past in an honest sincere fashion make you feel better about Korea’s unwilling to confront its past?
Richardson
Thanks
“#
As far as Ponta, why bother responding? It’s like debating with a holocaust denier. He takes one example that is the exception and attempts to disprove the rule. “Look, this bit of desert is perfectly flat, it is well documented that there is no curvature over 50 miles whatsoever. Therefore the Earth is not round.” Conversely, such logic is always rejected in regard to history that portrays Japan in a negative light. But so is the macro type. Replace the flat Earth theory with “what comfort women?” and “what forced name chages,” etc. and you have him in a nutshell. Again, like arguing with a holocaust denier.
#
GravatarRichardson your flag
Posted March 16, 2007 at 8:23 pm | Permalink
Before someone gets technical, replace “The Earth is not round” with “The Earth is not an oblate spheroid.””
Could you be more specific?
All you are saying, it seems to me, is I am like holocaust denier and you claim it without substantive argument.
Since the moderator seems to allow this kind of comment, let me clarify things a bit.
I am not denying the there were comfort women who
were deceived and/or kidnapped by pimps.
I am not denying that there were case women were raped by Japanese soldiers.
I am saying that Japanese army/police were responsible for failing to regulate illegal pimps and rapists sufficiently . Japan was wrong.
Japan apologized for it, and set up funds.
I am saying this issue should be approached as a
particular in the universal problem, because there are similar issue in other nations too.
In that way, Koreans and Japanese, Americans and Germans can work together.
But for some reason, when I mention it, some people start saying I am not confronting the issue. For my part, I would like to ask which is evading the issue.
Some people seem to think that Japanese case is unique in that Japanese troop systematically kidnapped women to make them prostitutes.
I am saying, however, that so far there is no backed up evidence to support that Japanese troop systematically kidnapped women to make them prostitutes.
Richardson, is this what make you think I am like
holocaust denier?
If so could you give us the backed up evidence?
As for the tesitimonies examined by a korean scholar, out of 40 volounteers, 21 testimonies were dropped, because there were “those who were reluctant to talk about the details of their experiences, those whose stories contained inconsitencies and those who contradicted themselves”
(True Stories of the Korean Comfort Women by Keith Howard (Editor)page 12)
Is the editor like a holocaust denier because he dismissed 21 testimonies because women contradict
themselves?
I won’t repeat my other arguments because I discussed it on the comment sections of “This is why the comfort women aren’t satisfied” and “NYT on Abe and the comfort women”
I would appreciate, Richardson, if you would be more specific about your statement.
cm
Thanks
“Ponta quotes Hankyoreh which he would dismiss if they wrote articles about comfort women.”
I have never denied anything because of who he/she is. Coud you cite the case where I did it?
(The moderator, is the rule still functioning ?)
Though the Vietnamese claims Korean systematically massacred old man, women and children.
http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/.....;oliID=229
http://tamezou.iza.ne.jp/blog/entry/84543/
I guess lierou’s account maybe realistic,
“There were some atrocities committed by individual Korean soldiers during the war, to include rape and murder, ……..the idea that Korean “mercenaries” routinely committed war crimes in Vietnam is false, but popular among the modern Korean left wing..
”
What I am saying is that hold for Japanese case, and in particular the reference to the modern left wing is suggestive here.
.
Notice Richardson and cm shed doubt on the witness account based on the nature of the media which convey the news about atrocity.
And it is interesting how they deny or almost deny the account.
Richardson cites Australian insufficient evidence.
I also cited insufficient evidences.
cm points out three was no Korean troop when the incident happened.
I pointed out there was no military brothels where ex-comfort women said they worked.
When an assailant is Korean, is it reasonable to shed doubt on the account? but when a victim is Korean, is it unforgivable to do that to such an extent the someone who shed doubt on whether ex-comfort women’s statement correspond to the fact, based on circumstantial evidence, inconsistency of the testimonies, and official documents, is blamed as a neo-nationalist, according to Robert, a a holocaust denier according to Richardson.? , though to be fair, Robert might describe Richardson and cm as neo-nationalist, and Richardson might call himself and cm holocaust denier.
I can not help but feel some peculiar bias going on here.——- it is more of ironical for the content of the post—-but I am glad we get back to the topic finally.
“Notice Richardson and cm shed doubt on the witness account based on the nature of the media which convey the news about atrocity.”
Go back and read what I said. I did not doubt it didn’t happen. I said give me written document or “proof” - which you have not been able to produce. It’s the same game you are playing with the comfort women issue - a despicable cowardly copout that anyone can play.
Contrarily, I actually do believe some of the Vietnamese eyewithness accounts. You, on the other hand, will defend the fact that earth is square because you haven’t seen it as a round sphere with your own eyes, and you will argue this all day with “E = MC square” - just like Richardson said.
This is interesting.
When Koreans talk about Comfort women, they believe only accounts but refuse any documentations which prove the women were prostitutes.
But when Koreans talk about Korean atrocities in Vietnam, they refuse all the accounts.
Do they? According to the source sighted, the Hankyoreh, public opinion in Korea was the following:
1. The real facts of the massacre should be publicly revealed 66.3%
2. There is a need to dispatch a fact-finding mission 66.9%
3. The Korean government should make a public apology and provide compensation to Vietnamese victims 77.9%
Nobody here is denying Korean atrocities, with the exception of lirelou, and he’s not Korean. We’re just playing around a bit with the logic of Japanese comfort-women deniers.
Now, if we really wanted to be dicks, we could start arguing that since there is NO documentary evidence proving that the North Korean state ordered the kidnapping of Japanese nationals—Kim Jong-il himself attributed the kidnappings to individual soldiers—and Kim has issued a half-assed apology, Japan should shut up and stop making the abductions an issue.
cm
“You, on the other hand, will defend the fact that earth is square because you haven’t seen it as a round sphere with your own eyes, and you will argue this all day with “E = MC squar”
I have never said the earth is square, that was an example Richard used to call me a holocaust denier without presenting any substantive argument.
“I did not doubt it didn’t happen. I said give me written document or “proof” -”
cm
You are “neo-nationalist ” according to Robert, and you are “holocaust denier” according to Richardson. “come on” cm, “you know that’s what you wanted with your comment” Does denying the past make you feel better?
“Must be a conspiracy by old, senile, lying “Asians to “embarrass Korea”.
….
And this is the game Robert has been playing.
Robert……
ponta—I think you’re missing cm’s point.
Robert
“Now, if we really wanted to be dicks, we could start arguing that since there is NO documentary evidence proving that the North Korean state ordered the kidnapping of Japanese nationals—Kim Jong-il himself attributed the kidnappings to individual soldiers—and Kim has issued a half-assed apology, Japan should shut up and stop making the abductions an issue.”
And this argument fails, because there are other witness that saw people kidnapped alive. And there are no document North Korea regulated kidnapping Japanese nationals.
And people are not arguing that Kim Jong-il ordered, though it is more likely that he approved of it. People are saying, get children back.
“Nobody here is denying Korean atrocities, with the exception of lirelou, and he’s not Korean. We’re just playing around a bit with the logic of Japanese comfort-women deniers.”
As I read Lirelou’s comment, it seems to me , he is not denying Korean atrocities took place, he just denies “the idea that Korean “mercenaries” routinely committed war crimes”
So
Are you saying Korean “mercenaries” routinely committed war crimes and Korean military officers were not against the atrocity but rather facilitated it and Korean atrocity was planed and ordered by the the government level officers and had taken place systematically ?
Robert
“ponta—I think you’re missing cm’s point.”
Robert–I think you’re missing my point.
Ponta, what do you think cm is trying to say?
Who are these witnesses? What are their statements? Couldn’t they simply be recounting what they were told by the anti-Korean Japanese police and intelligence agencies? Or by anti-Korean so-called “abductee organizations?” How did they know they were Korean? How do you know they weren’t Japanese working privately? Or maybe Japanese working for individual North Koreans breaking North Korean law by kidnapping Japanese?
And moreover, yes, I’d imagine that IF there were witnesses to these so-called “North Korean abductions,” I’d imagine the victims would have been taken alive. No sense in bringing a dead body all the way back to North Korea.
Moreover, there wouldn’t be regulations about the kidnapping of Japanese, because the North Korean state wasn’t involved in the kidnapping of North Korean citizens.
North Korea said all the abductees have been returned. There is certainly no reliable proof that the abductees are still alive. And even if they were, what proof do you have that they are not living in North Korea voluntarily? I mean, sure, I guess it’s possible that some Japanese, abducted without the knowledge of the N. Korean state, might be hanging around somewhere in North Korea. Transportation and communications in North Korea isn’t so good, after all. But like I said, there is not proof of that being the case, and at any rate, there is no reason to hold the North Korean state accountable for crimes it did not commit and lacks the institutional ability to rectify. And North Korea wouldn’t have reason to keep hold of abductees, so I have no idea why these irrational Korean-hating Japanese keep trying to bring up an issue that was settled in 2002 except as a way to humiliate and threaten North Korea.
“Nobody here is denying Korean atrocities,”
Really? For example, cm sounded like he/she wouldn’t believe until primary sources come up. cm said “I do believe some of the Vietnamese eyewithness accounts” but atill demanding written document or“proof”.
And recently, Koreans pressured the author of “So far from the bamboo grove” because the book described Korean atrocities against Japanese.
The Koreans refused Mrs Watkins’ account, weren’t they.
cm is simply pointing out the fact that if the Hankyoreh ran a piece on comfort women (and, in fact, it was one of the first papers in Korea to do the story), you two would be the first to point out that the Hankyoreh is a biased leftist rag. But if it runs a piece on the Vietnamese war crimes, and it’s gospel. And isn’t “written documents or proof” what the Japanese are demanding for the comfort women, seeing how testimony from witnesses and scholars is either inconsistent, biased or otherwise unreliable? I mean, if the Japanese are going to deny the state coerced women to become military sex slaves, can’t Korea deny that atrocities took place in Vietnan?
Did they? Which Koreans are you referring to. I mean, some did. I don’t believe the state, per say, denied that rapes and other atrocities might have taken place. The biggest complaint was that teaching the book in U.S. schools, where knowledge of Japanese rule over Korea is next to nill, would be like teaching a book about a German family living in occupied Poland fleeing advancing rape-prone Soviet forces to a classroom that knew nothing about Germany’s WWII behavior.
And at any rate, shouldn’t you support those Koreans who have been seizing upon the minor errors in Mrs. Watkins’ book to discredit her whole story? I mean, if she’s writing about bamboo groves in Hamkyungbukdo and U.S. air raids near Wonsan, clearly she could be mistaken about other things as well, especially given her advanced age and writing about events that took place so long ago. And as far as I know, I know of no reliable documents proving that these so-called “atrocities” mentioned in Watkins’ book took place.
Robert, if you are going to frame the debate as one of either assent or denial, then you need to spell out exactly what people are assenting to or denying. Labeling Japanese people that talk back as “Japanese comfort woman deniers” is a meaningless ploy unless you tell them what you think they are denying.
How about explaining what you think is being denied?
“you two would be the first to point out that the Hankyoreh is a biased leftist rag.”
I didn’t mention hankyore in the begining.
” And isn’t “written documents or proof” what the Japanese are demanding for the comfort women,”
Because the comfort women changes their stories all the time.
The man who brought up the issue first time revealed that he made up the stories.
There are written evidences that the Korean comfort women were getting paid alot more than average Japanese in those days.
“can’t Korea deny that atrocities took place in Vietnan?”
The Japanese do not deny that comfort women existed.
“Did they? ”
You didn’t see the Amazon book review war?
Though Amazon has deleted the mess.
“shouldn’t you support those Koreans who have been seizing ”
The difference is
Mrs Watkins has never demanded apology and money to the Korean government.
She doesn’t try to exchange her experience to money.
But as for the Korean comfort women, getting big money seems to be their achivement.
Did not Ponta make perfectly clear his views on the comfort women here?
Has he not clearly denied that the Japanese state was involved in the coercion of comfort women? It seems to me he’s saying that coerced simply means that economic circumstances forced them to become prostitutes, or—at the worst—that some might have been deceived into it, and even that—we can only assume—by private pimps, many of them local, and NOT the Japanese state. Has he not said, in fact, that if anything, the Japanese military tried to STOP the forcing of women into the comfort stations and tried to regulate the practice?
As for the other “Japanese person that talked back” (cute, shakuhachi), chada, I think he’s made his views—and attitudes—pretty clear in comment #37.
Reminds me of the Kapos.
” Really? For example, cm sounded like he/she wouldn’t believe until primary sources come up. cm said “I do believe some of the Vietnamese eyewithness accounts” but atill demanding written document or“proof”. ”
DENSE, really dense.
“But when Koreans talk about Korean atrocities in Vietnam, they refuse all the accounts.”
Really? I think you really shouldn’t say something that you know nothing about, especially when it is blatantly false.
Robert, the debate in Japan is different to the way it is perceived overseas. No one, not even Yoshiaki Yoshimi, the Japanese left wing historian and member of the Japanese army wartime responsibility group that is quoted most in the comfort women issue, says that the Japanese army was rounding up women and forcing them to become prostitutes. In fact it was Yoshiaki Yoshimi that came up with the idea even if there was no coercion in the narrow sense (kidnapping), there must have been some coercion in the broad sense of the meaning.
When Ponta says that the Japanese tried to stop coercion, I can think of two things that he would be thinking of. One is an order by the Japanese army in Manchuria to be careful that no women are forced to become prostitutes by recruiters recruiting for the army because some of the recruiters had got in trouble with the police because of their heavy handed recruiting methods. The order warned that the honor of the army was at stake. The documents for that order still exist, so that is one indication that the Japanese army tried to stop coercion. Another is the case of some Dutch women being forced to be prostitutes in a military brothel in Sumaran, Indonesia. When the Japanese army command found out about the forcing, they shut the brothel down. Those responsible were among those executed by the allies as war criminals. If forcing was par for the course, why would the Japanese army close down the brothel?
Considering this evidence, and considering there is no evidence to suggest that the Japanese did systematically force women into becoming comfort women, I do not see what is so outrageous about what Ponta is saying.
Robert
Thanks
“Ponta, what do you think cm is trying to say?”
Robert , what do you think i am trying to say?
“cm is simply pointing out the…..”
cm is wrong about his guess on my reaction to Hankyorhe. I have never denied anything just because of who said it. It is rather Robert who attempted to discredit ex-comfort woman’s because it was interviewed by gmanin.
And
cm wrote,
“How can this be possible, considering that there were no Korean soldiers in Vietnam, in 1964. Koreans only started arriving in 1965, and only started combat in 1966.”
He was trying to deny witness’s account by the fact. (and I don’t think the attempt was wrong)
If someone does that to ex-comonfort woman’s testimony, you call him neo-nationalist, Richardson call him a Holocaust denier.
And that is the game you have been playing.
“Did not Ponta make perfectly clear his views on the comfort women here?”
Yes I think I made my view clear there and on this thread too.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/.....ment-74358
Japanese troop set up houses for the comfort station.
Japanese troop transferred comfort women in the battle field.
Japanese military doctor gave them VD test.
Japanese embassy licenced the brothels.
Private pimps recruited women.
private owners run the brothels.
So far Korea and the US and German had the similar system.
Some people think that Japanese system is unique
in that Japanese troop systematically kidnapped women to make them prostitutes.
I am saying that so far there is no backed up evidence to support it.
And that is exactly what Robert, and ,for that matter, Yoshimi, the expert Matt mentioned above, have been failing to show.
And Yoshimi changed the definition of the “coercion”
And under the pressure from the leftist and Korea
to admit the “coercion” anyway by the government,
Kono issued the statement, albeit ambiguous and misleading, in the hope that it would settle the issue. But it didn’t.
So tell me , Rebert, do you admit that Korean “mercenaries” routinely committed war crimes and Korean military officers were not against the atrocity/illegal acts but rather facilitated it and Korean atrocity/illegal acts were planed and ordered by the the government level officers and had taken place systematically ?
Regarding Korea and Vietnam:
“In the first summit between leaders of the two countries [in 1998], Kim Dae-Jung expressed his regret for Korea having inflicted pain on the Vietnamese people during the Vietnam War.”
http://list.msu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.....amp;P=5089
As for Kim Dae Jung regret,
한나라당은 권철현(權哲賢) 대변인은 26일 성명을 내고 “김대중(金大 中) 대통령이 베트남전 참전에 대해 최상의 사과를 표시한 데 놀라움을 금치 못한다”며 “김 대통령의 국가관과 역사관의 실체는 뭐냐”고 따졌다.
이에 대해 청와대의 한 관계자는 사견임을 전제로 “김 대통령이 베트 남전이라는 과거사에 대한 심정을 얘기하면서 유감을 표명했을 뿐 사과한 게 아니다”며 “한나라당이 쓸데없이 트집을 잡는다”고 반박했다
http://vinakorea.com/zboard/zb.....&no=12
witness:
None, in case of Seju island, islanders testified that there was no such cases.
official document:
Japanese troop and policemen regulated illegal pimps.
The US reports states there was a contract between women and brothels.
(At the time when brothel was legal, it was taken for granted that there was a contract.)
newspaper:
Japanese police regulated illegal pimps.
diary
Japanese military regulated illegal brothel owners.
ex-comfort testimonies
True story of comfort women;
, out of 40 volunteers, 21 testimonies were dropped, because either they didn’t want to talk the details, or there are inconsistency.
Out of 19 testimonies, 4 testimonies were such that Japanese officials kidnapped them. Out of two testimonies, two cases were such that they worked where there was no military comfort stations, other two cases were such that two women testified in the suite they filed . they were sold
Japanese government
When Kono issued the statement, there was no backed up evidence to suport the testimonies, but he issued it anyway as a political solution.
Even supposing comfort women’s account is true it seems difficult to conclude that Japanese troop “systematically” kidnapped women in the face of the fact that there are evidence Japanese military/police regulated such illegal pimps.
However, from these evidence, some people conclude that Japanese troop systematically kidnapped women to make them prostitutes. .
I am saying that so far there is no backed up evidence, such as witness and document, official or private, to support it.
And I am not just asking Robert and cm to present official document, I am asking them to present the head of Korean village’s account, Korean pimp’s account who are involved with the practice, and other witness’s account.
I am saying I am willing to change my opinion with reasonable evidence and arguments.
And I am asking Rober if he admits that Korean “mercenaries” routinely committed war crimes and Korean military officers were not against the atrocity/illegal acts but rather facilitated it and Korean atrocity/illegal acts were planed and ordered by the the government level officers and had taken place systematically or if he is a “holocaust denier.” “neo-natioalist”
I really would like Rober to answer this question because it is rather this question which is related to this post.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asi.....249236.stm
Japan’s WWII enemies go out of their ways to say sorry and even repay. Interment camp US, UK, present case. However, Japan goes out of its way to say they were fighting for all of East Asia’s prosperity, their war was right, sex slaves were prostitutes, laborers imported into Japan are illegal immigrants, neighboring countries begged to become a Japanese colony.
All eyes on Japan. Frog in the well when it comes to admiting wrong for WW 1 and WW 2. Yes, that’s right. 1 and 2. They got away with 1, by siding with the winning team.
So, we all know what happened is wrong and terrible. What exactly would The Japanese have to do to make amends for their atrocity?
Ok guys, this is really wuite simple.
A. Humans are hypocrites. The US offered no apology, for slavery; Korea - none for Vietnam warcrimes; yet they demand apologies from Japan.
B. The whole premise that a nation should apologise is false, as it’s personifying a nation. And the personification of any entities other than actual “persons” has no place outside childrens story books and thats about the philosophical level this discussion is on.
Furthermore Abe didn’t rape anyone in WWII, so even if he appologized it wouldn’t be valid. I never owned any slaves, and Noh didn’t machine gun any villagers (or take part in the orders of such acts) so again, whats the point?
C. This is all ver counter productive, the problem about the past is that it already happened, the only thing you can work to make better is the future, and this petty BS about the nationalities of people who did things wrong before any of us were every born is not making the future any brighter.
Or look at it this way, people are to a country what water is to a any location on a river. the water there is never the same, it’s always flowing and never the same.
Or this way: If my father was a criminal, this doesn’t make me a criminal too. People don’t inherit the responsibility from their elders.
The problem we face here is that one side is blaming the other for what their forbearers have done. This wrong then elicits and equally wrong reaction of trying to cover up history, causing more reason to hate the other party, hipocracy ensues.
Next, a supernationalistic and racist China (every bit as much as japan was in WW2) can rise up and bite everyone in the ass while they are bickering about history and in the process of all this history will ironicly repeat itself. All this despite the fact the reason they we are bickering in the first place is “not to repeat history”. (I’m just using this as an example)
So “D.” humans are always shooting themselves in the foot.
captbbq,
I was hoping for a reasonable response, you certainly delivered one. I have struggled with this topic for a few years. What can Japan do? Send money? Pay for re-treads? What message would that send? I have read apologies from past administrations that got nit-picked to disqualification. I guess in ten years or so the problem might dissipate nah…..
wjk
I thought you wouldn’t comment on this thread.
“I’ll shut up, and cease comments on this thread.”
(comment 15)
But that’s okay you couldn’t resist it again, I know you.
Your BBC article talks about the case in which lower court judged in favor of comfort women.
http://www.kanpusaiban.net/map.htm
There were three comfort women.
Ms 河順女
「金儲けができる仕事」とさそわれる
私が従軍慰安婦として連行されたのは、19歳だった1937年の春だったと思います。買い物に行こうと家を出たとき、洋服を着た日本人と韓式の服を着た朝鮮人の青年が私に話しかけ、「金儲けが出来る仕事があるからついてこないか」と言いまし
She was recruited/deceived by Korean pimps
Ms 李順徳
そこに３、40歳位の見知らぬ朝鮮人の男が来て、「そんな事をしているよりも、自分についてくれば、履物もやるし着物もやる。腹一杯食べれるところに連れて行ってやる」と誘いました。…..翌日になると私を連れてきた朝鮮人の男の姿は見えず、代わりに目本人の男が３人いました。男たちはカーキ色の服を着てゲートルを巻き、腹にサーベルをぷらさげていました。
She was recruited/deceived by Korean pimps and handed to Japanese men who were in khaki, with puttees on, the saber hanging from the belly.
Ms 朴頭理
私が17歳のときに、私の村に「日本の工場で働けば金儲けができる」という話が村の娘たちにもちかけられ、男たちが村の娘たちを集めにやって来ました。日本語と韓国語を話す見知らぬ男でしたが、韓国語が上手だったのでたぶん朝鮮人だと思います.
She was recruited/deceived by pimps, most likely , she said, Korean.
The court’s judgement, in my understanding, is roughly as follows.
The court admitted that they received the damage under the brothels Japanese troop was involved in, but for their demand to be granted, there need to be an individual law, but there is no law, however
The lower court judgment.
The present state had an obligation to enact a
law to prevent ex-comfort women who were the victims of brothel system by which women were deceived and forced from receiving more damage, but it didn’t. Therefore as a state compensation for the inaction of the Diet, the plaintiff has a right to receive 300000 yen.
The higher court
The diet has an discretion as to whether or when or how to enact a law to compensate the war damage. It is not evident that the diet had such an obligation just because it was war damage.
The court does not state that Japanese troop systematically kidnapped women to make them prostitute.
I think the sensationalistic media, especially Korean media, have people believe such is the case.
But I am open to discussion and new evidences, but let’s stop calling names like a holocaust denier or insinuating someone feel less guilty discovering other’s sin. Here I am talking to those who want to comment on this topic.
As I said, this issue should be approached as a particular in the universal. Japan should admit injustice she committed, but I don’t see the reason why she has to accept the allegation that has little evidence to support.
Get off your high-horse, Ponta.
Perhaps I should instead ask if you are receiving money from Japanese people to post your comments. Or perhaps point out, as you did with wjk as a way to discredit his comments, that you’re Japanese (and therefore your comments are biased). Perhaps I should ask what you’re wearing while you post your comments. And for a guy who like to throw the term “ultra-nationalist” around a lot, you seem quite sensitive about the terms “neo-nationalist” and “denier.”
railwaycharm,
Thank you for looking at my argument and not judging it by my several typos and lack of editing…. I really need to spend some time to proofread these. (hipocracy -> hypocrisy… geez)
At any rate, on several occasions when I’ve been presented with the argument that Japan has never apologized. To that I’ve pointed out that they have on several occasions, only to get the response “Yes, but I don’t care”. I think someone should instead be making a resolution for Korea to pick an apology and accept it.
Not doing so will only serve to drive the current generation of Japanese further to the right and into a posible resurgence of nationalism.
As long as there is an administration finds Japan as a nation it can thumb its nose at without consequence, thus pushing up their popularity ratings at home, this will never dissipate. This is vile and amounts to one president trading about 4 popularity points for an even higher wall of hate between the generations of two countries.
Captbbq,
I look at substance, not spell check. G-d bless the English teachers out there but they seem to have the single minded currency of belittling the non-anal. My question was serious. I deal with the Japanese regularly. They think they are the best and frankly feel that Koreans are not sophisticated. It is dangerous to think that they will change anytime soon. Japan has hopped up into the lap of America and they feel comfortable with their modus operandi. My question begs, will the apology ever be enough, will it make any difference, will Korea ever be satisfied?
“My question begs, will the apology ever be enough, will it make any difference, will Korea ever be satisfied?”
Probably not.
Getting back to the topic…
The brutality of Korean jailers comes up sometimes in memoirs of Philippine camp prisoners, but often there isn’t much else. Interesting to find out what happened to them after the war.
Robewrt
Thanks
”
Get off your high-horse, Ponta.
Perhaps I should instead ask if you are receiving money from Japanese people to post your comments. Or perhaps point out, as you did with wjk as a way to discredit his comments, that you’re Japanese (and therefore your comments are biased). Perhaps I should ask what you’re wearing while you post your comments. And for a guy who like to throw the term “ultra-nationalist” around a lot, you seem quite sensitive about the terms “neo-nationalist” and “denier.””
Get off your hight horse, Robert.
To answer your question.
I am not receiving money from Japanese people to post my comments.
I didn’t point out wjk is Korean American as a way to discredit wjk.
(I am a bit surprised you quote my comment from occidentalism.)
“BTW WJK is an Korean American.
And in my judgment he is misdirecting the topic. Incidentally I think he is using the same tactics Korean newspapers were using.”
I didn’t say since he is Korean American, he is misdirecting….” I made myself clear many times that there are a lot of reasonable rational Korean American
I have used the term “ultra-nationalist” , roughly, to refer to people who are blind to the faults of their own nationality but blame endlessly other nationalities. and I used it to avoid a hasty generalization about a specific nationality. Just quote my comment where I used it misleadingly without substantive argument.
I mentioned “neo-nationalists” you used and “a holocaust denier” Richardson used to show how immature to use the term without substantive argument.
I don’t understand why you responded this way, without substantive argument on the topic, talking only about me to the comment to the effect let’s argue on the topic but not on the person who argue it, though it IS ironical.
I thought you ” get cracking at producing some, ahem, highbrow “National Review”-quality material then,”
But after all, you wrote before,
“Damn, and I was enjoying the trash posting. Thanks for being a buzzkill ”
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/.....ment-47440
Now Robert, to get back to the topic,
I argued against the allegation that Japanese troop systematically kidnapped to make women prostitutes.
I argued it is unreadable to reach that conclusion based on the evidences so far given.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/.....ment-74495
(Keep in mind, in passing, I also said, I am open to new evidences and new argument.)
You ,on the other hand, have kept attacking my claim (and me) only based on the unreliable testimonies made more than 50 years later that in a few cases Japanese soldiers kidnapped them.
Now there are Vietnamese testimony that Korean soldiers systematically massacred Vietnamese citizens. By your logic, it is not unreasonable to say that Korean “mercenaries” routinely committed war crimes and Korean military officers were not against the atrocity/illegal acts, didn’t regulate it but rather facilitated it and Korean atrocity/illegal acts were planed and ordered by the the government level officers and had taken place systematically.
I asked this question to see if you are fair, or to show how unreasonable your inference is (and to show how self contradictory to use the term “neo-nationalist and holocaust denier to the person who tries to deny it.)
But you remained silent as to this question despite my asking a few times when Korean military crimes are in question.
It might not be sympathy for the Devil, but it certainly shows, it seems, some kind of failures in logic, fairness. And I believe this post is about the same kind of failure by Hankyoreh as to the case about Japanese war criminals and Korean war criminal in World War II. We’ve got to the topic again. albeit ironically.
correction
I argued it is unreadable to
→I argued it is unreasonable….
railwaycharm
I agree with your approach and your assessment “So, we all know what happened is wrong and terrible.”(though I want to take up this issue as
a particular in the universal, as I argued).
But
“I deal with the Japanese regularly. They think they are the best and frankly feel that Koreans are not sophisticated. It is dangerous to think that they will change anytime soon.”
This is not true and I am afraid it is misleading way to approach this issue.
I for one judge people on individual basis. And what do you get by putting the phrase into this issue?
ponta, since you asked, I already stated in Operation nipoff that my intention was to comment on the UK going out of its way to say sorry to seemingly justified action against Japan, while Japan goes out of its way to say,
she wanted the sex.
Chosun wanted to be our slaves.(says Japan after finishing off the Dong Hak, Qing China, and Russia and coming with a force much greater than what caused Japan to open doors to Perry. It was almost like claiming the prize after “earning” it.)
Japan did not attack China, Japan entered China
Ponta, your stuff is hard to read,
http://www.webmonkey.com/webmo.....quote.html
Learn something new today. Set aside the Sankei Shimbun, just for today.
I assume you have a solid interest in such matters, because you seem to read Japanese, English, and Korean.
For the record, yeah I am a Korean and nationalist. I believe almost all of what kimsoft says.
Now, your turn.
To comment on Railwaycharm’s sincere question, I have a solution, inspired by noticing something on the bbc.
Your Japanese Emperor’s status and function in society should be similar to the British monarchy.
North and South Korea will probably accept and stop complaining, if your Emperor issued a personal televised statement, accepting fault, criticising past and present Japanese politicians who denied even the existence of comfort women, Unit 731, Nan Jing, forced labor, etc, and the Japanese Parliament passed a law to take care of these people who will die in 10 years anyway until death, financially from living expenses, health care, housing, and funeral expenses.
Your emperor might even win a Nobel Peace Prize and win Time magazine’s person of the year.
Prince Charles and Queen Elizabeth goes around the world to build goodwill towards Britain. Your Emperor can potentially do the same. Remember, both were hated intensely by neighboring nations for whatever reasons, but Britain’s house is looked upon favorably.
Ponta wrote:
“I didn’t point out wjk is Korean American as a way to discredit wjk.”
Well, then why DID you mention his Korean ethnicity?
wjk
Thanks
wjk wrote;
“she wanted the sex”
I don’t think so.
I af afraid you are not familiar with the situation the prostitutes were in.
As for living conditions of comfort stations, in some cases, it is not difficult to imagine that their living condition was horrible, as the testimonies say, coupled with other historical documents about relevant situation in Japan; in other case, their living condition was relatively good as we can see from the US report and again other historical documents about the times .
But the fact remains that their background plight was horrible.
As the industrialization began, the women of rural area had to find job in cities, but the job opportunity for them was scarce except, roughly , some hard work at factories with cheap payment or the brothels to get the money, to pay the debt she or her parent owed. It was happening in Japan and other Asian countries and it is still happening in some of Asian countries.
I don’t think prostitutes then just wanted sex, and I don’t think most of prostitutes in Asian countries now just want sex.
That is one reason why I don’t call them “whores” though you and Robert call them so or want me to say it.
wjk wrote;
“Japan did not attack China, Japan entered China”
You are not accurate here.
Japan invaded China just as western countries invaded it.
“North and South Korea will probably accept and stop complaining, if your Emperor issued a personal televised statement, accepting fault,”
Emperor has apologized several times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....d_by_Japan
But many of Korean people are not satisfied, nitpicking, for instance, that was not televised, that was not sincere enough or something like that.
Sonagi
Thanks.
I was giving information about wjk including my judgement about what he was doing . He must have been familiar with Korean Americans because he worked with them. It was up to him how he would judges wjk based on the information I gave.
…………………………………
On the whole, what I want to say is this.
I know there are some “righteous” people who want to say for their political agenda, for instance, there are intentional massive killing of civilians by the US is going on. But I don’t think it is wrong to correct the statement with backed up evidence. And it does not means that by doing that he is saying there was no killing of civilians , no injustice happened.
The reality is more nuanced and complex.
I am still open to the discussion, and I am willing to change my opinion, depending on the course of the discussion.
If you go to the Museum of War Atrocities in Vietnam you can see photos of Korean soldiers holding heads of women and children that they have beheaded. They are all smiling as well. You can come to your own conclusion on whether or not that is a war crime. Of course the Korean soldiers aren’t the only ones that committed horrible crimes there, BUT the did commit them.
Nice job, blockhead, you could really tell what he or his dad’s talking about. No more “discussion” with you.
to paraphrase,
” Japan feels the deepest sorrow about ____, this must be never repeated again.”
While…
As of 2004.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asi.....809871.stm
And also while…(sorry I’m doing this here. Very sorry about this. All links from the BBC, though. Honestly, I didn’t even know about some of these things.)
News - Japan rejects sex slave appeal
More than 50 actions for damages have been filed against Japan by women forced to prostitute themselves during the war.
25 Mar 2003
News - Japan internet sex crimes rocket
Japan passed laws in 1999 making it a crime to pay for sex with minors under 18, or to sell or distribute child pornography, but teen prostitution remains widespread.
22 Aug 2002
News - Japan overturns sex slave ruling
The forced labourers came to Japan around 1943 to work at a factory in Toyama, central Japan.
29 Mar 2001
News - Japan WWII sex slave redress call
A group of “comfort women” in Taiwan begin a campaign to pressure Japan over abuse by their soldiers in WWII..
12 Mar 2005
News - China raps Japan over sex slaves
Mr Abe has said Japan will not go beyond a 1993 apology on the issue. Many historians say Japan compelled up to 200,000 women, mostly Chinese and Korean, to become sex slaves.
6 Mar 2007
News - Japan refuses sex slave apology
Many historians say Japan compelled up to 200,000 women, mostly Chinese and Korean, to become sex slaves.
5 Mar 2007
News - Japan anger at US sex slave bill
Japan admits its army forced women to be sex slaves during World War II but has rejected compensation claims.
19 Feb 2007
News - Japan to end WWII sex slave fund
Japan announces the closure of a fund set up to help Asian women forced into military brothels in WWII.. The issue continues to damage Japan’s relations with its Asian neighbours.
24 Jan 2005
News - Japan court denies sex slave case
Historians say some 200,000 young women - mainly Korean, but also from Taiwan, China, Indonesia and the Philippines - were forced to work as sex slaves during the war.
9 Feb 2004
News - Court battle over Japan school books
The book, like several others, omits any reference to the tens of thousands of women - most of them Korean - forced to serve as sex slaves for Japan’s military.
9 May 2001
News - Japan overturns sex-slave compensation
Nine court cases involving compensation claims for former sex slaves from Asian women are still pending in Japan.
29 Mar 2001
http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bi.....;scope=all
I for one judge people on individual basis. And what do you get by putting the phrase into this issue?
Reality
wjk wrote:
“And also while…(sorry I’m doing this here. Very sorry about this. All links from the BBC, though. Honestly, I didn’t even know about some of these things.)”
No need to apologize for hijacking threads like you always do. We’re quite used to this kind of rudeness.
Even the sheriff doesn’t mind.