Over at Salon, Andrew Leonard looks at the Sino-Korean Wiki-War over Goguryeo [Salon.com]. Be sure to read it in its entirety, but allow me to reprint the money shot:
Critics of Wikipedia are wont to point a finger at amateur authorship as a reason to distrust its veracity. Paradoxically, I find the lack of central authority and profusion of multiple contradicting viewpoints to be a more truthful reflection of “reality.” So what if an examination of the inner workings of Wikipedia makes its editorial process seem chaotic and causes one to distrust the product? That’s a good thing. All history should be distrusted! It’s equally easy to mock the Chinese and Korean academics who are playing games with Northeast Asian history in service of their own nationalism, but I say hurrah to them as well: They’re just engaging in an egregiously blatant display of what historians and reporters and bloggers are doing everywhere, all the time. By allowing us to track editorial changes, alter content ourselves, and participate in metalevel arguments, Wikipedia gives us a window-seat view of how “knowledge” is fabricated. The more context that is made available, the easier it is to make up our own minds.
Talk amongst yourselves.
56 Comments
Of course the irony of Leonard’s piece is that, after trashing the ideas that objectivity and historical truth are possible, he ends up by subscribing to a position himself - the one most persuasively articulated by the Korean researcher at Leipzig Uni:
And the tragedy of Leonard’s reasoning is that for him this is a matter of asserting a value rather than a more or less verifiably established fact:
So, what exactly do I believe at the end of this exercise in ancient and modern historical construction?
Good luck to Leonard when China decides to press its claim to the West Coast on the basis of the Chinese discovery of north america.
Yeah. Let the anarchy reign —- until they start shooting each other….
what happenned to the mainland Chinese commenters? Blocked from visitng the site by the PRC?
Korea’s historical disputes are unfortunately a product of its own internal foreign policy. Sa Dae Bu. Hail General Kim Yoo Shin. Greatest Korean General, ever. He saved the Koreans from ____.
Well, I for one am glad that most outside researchers come down on the Korean side (from what Leonard said). I just don’t like the idea of the Chinese being able to legitimately claim that their historic border goes all the way down the Gaeseong.
As for distrusting all history, I certainly agree that it is a good thing. I like reading Frog in a Well (for example) but I certainly would not accept their conclusions as face value. I learned to take was scholars told me with a grain of salt way back in college.
It’s a waste of ink. It’s just a bunch of Chinese and Korean teenage boys who have nothing better to do than argue with each other because they don’t have girlfriends.
1. china’s claim cannot be treated as an equal to korea’s. korean people have seen koguryeo as part of their history for over a thousand years. the chinese government just twenty.
2. in the article, the author wrote something like this: ‘korea wants to date it’s history prior to chinese and JAPANESE (my emphasis) influence.’ i hope the author reads this blog because his stement tells us he doesn’t know his history. japan did not have any influence on korea until the 1900s; the koreans basically ignored them. people i tell this to are always surprised. of course, the chinese are a different story.
3. because of china’s attempt to steal korean history, i no longer trust them and look upon them with a sharp eye. korea must develope nuclear weapons that can target cities beyond xian, china. of course, if the koreans and japanese stopped fighting one another, they could develope such a weapon together since both need to worry about this new red menace.
4. this koguryeo flap is just one example of the growing threat china poses to the world.
5. 大家小心!
#6: “3. because of china’s attempt to steal korean history, i no longer trust them and look upon them with a sharp eye. korea must develope nuclear weapons that can target cities beyond xian, china. of course, if the koreans and japanese stopped fighting one another, they could develope such a weapon together since both need to worry about this new red menace.”
Has Baduk co-opted Pawi’s identity?
I think Sperwer made a very good point. And I would also like to point out that the Korean researcher Andrew Leonard cites is by no means an expert as far as Koguryo is concerned. Yonson Ahn, the researcher, is a feminist who holds various degrees on feminism, but none on any history-related subjects. I doubt she has scholarly understanding of early Korean archaeology and history as other historians do who often define or categorize Koguryo as something “Korean” one way or the other.
And no doubt nationalism from both sides are at the work here. In understanding that, Peter Hays Gries offers an interesting perspective which can answer one of the most baffling questions in this issue - why do some of the Chinese, who don’t even know what Koguryo is, be so obsessed about it? This is not about the governments or political agendas, but why some Chinese nationalists are engaging themselves in heated debates over something they didn’t care about at all. Anyways, the article is “The Koguryo Controversy, National Identity, and Sino-Korean
Relations Today” by Peter Hays Gries, so if anyone’s interested in how nationalists on either sides are motivated to engage in heated debate, this article’s a good read.
How you edit your comments here?
You don’t. Just tell us what you need fixed and one of the very nice administrators will do it for you.
I find myself, more so, in agreement with “Pawi” — this time. I would feel better knowing there were nuclear devices that could easily fit onto one of those new cruise missiles SK has.
Madness.
Madness indeed. It is madness that people could advocate arming SK with nuclear weapons because of a difference in historical opinion, without any territory even at stake.
Pawi: “japan did not have any influence on korea until the 1900s; the koreans basically ignored them.”
The Treaty of Kanghwa was signed in 1876.
I also second #12 and #13.
You mean you haven’t met any of the Great Korea irredentists?
I once met a Baekje revanchist who was still looking for payback against Silla and Tang.
Korea’s problem in this regard is not limned by the old saw about repeating history because of failing to study it, but more by Nietzsche’s perspective in the Use and Abuse of History about the danger of obsessing about it.
This comment deserves some kind of prize.
“i hope the author reads this blog because his stement tells us he doesn’t know his history. japan did not have any influence on korea until the 1900s; the koreans basically ignored them.”
who doesn’t know what history?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pirates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imjin_War
“Within four years, 90 percent of Koreans were uprooted from their homes and forced to wander the countryside in search of meager food and shelter.”
what happened to this place? the comments here used to make sense. kind of.
What umetaro said. I can’t recall visiting a historic temple or other site in Korea that didn’t include the obligatory “Burned to the ground by Hideyoshi in 1597.”
South Korea should make its own nuke. This will prevent war with China.
The question is not so much of Manchuria.
China wants to take North Korea.
That is what is at stake.
Nukes should be in the hands of rational, democratic govts.
China is not one. Nope, business families doing well in Chinese mainland support Hu Jin Tao, who publishes news and propaganda promoting Taiwan’s reabsorbtion into Chinese mainland, so they can break the US island chain that prevents the Chinese navy from free floating in the Pacific ocean.
This island chain, described to me, by a Chinese national includes, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Phillipines, Guam, Saipan, etc.
Taking Taiwan seems strategic to China for punching a big hole thru it.
They don’t see why the US should strategically limit Chinese navy away from the Pacific.
I see many, many, good reasons as long as it’s called the PRC. I don’t care if money rules now. It’s still a very irrational, communist collective dictatorship.
NO serious wars on UK, France, China, Russia, Pakistan, India and US mainlands that threatened capitol cities being in jeopardy of being sacked since…they had nukes.
Seoul should make its own nukes. China, Japan, Russia cannot be trusted.
I believe in Mutual Nuclear Deterrance.
They simply have too much people, and Korea simply has too little land to suffer another war.
let South Korea have its nuke. The desired total US pull out can begin, as long as Uri, Roh, and similar heads are replaced by Lee Myung Bak.
If they dare to raze Seoul with a nuke, say good bye to the civilization in Bei Jing.
Nationalism is a pain in the ass. Imagine no more borders. Celebrate hybrid complexity.
So what do the advocates of the John Lennon School of Geopolitical Resolution suggest as the post nation-state model? One world gov?
‘imjin war….’
yeah, a war is not influence. so many people in this world are under the impression that korea and it’s culture are the offspring of china and japan. most of you know that isn’t true. for instance, did japan have a cultural influence on korea? nope. has korea ever endeveored to attack japan to plunder it’s art (ie imjin war)? nope. was korea interested in trade and relations with japan to the point they’d threaten war? nope. did the koreans basically ignore the japanese throughout their long history? yep.
the author’s implication is that japan has had a major influence on korea. it did not.
indeed, it’s the other way around. the author might look into the hand korea had in the developement of ancient japan. he might be surprised at what he will find.
lastly, the very same people who would argue that the imjin war constitutes ‘influence’ on korea are the very same people who would say that the war had no lasting effect. just depends on the subject at hand and whichever side is opposite the korean position.
btw, umetaro tells us that a war and pirates constitutes ‘influnece’. let’s accept that and point out that both are negative ‘influneces’. let’s then point out that the war umetaro refers to had a postive influnece on japan. let’s look at what the japanese call the ‘imjin war’, they have several names:
war of pottery
war of celadon
war of pottery and metal type printing
you get the idea don’t you? i wonder if the author would ever write:
the japanese want to rid their history of korean influence.*
of course he wouldn’t because it seems obvious he doesn’t know his history.
*japan has been very successful in erasing the korean hand in the shaping of their culture. look up:
‘japanese roots’ by jared diamond
easy to find on the net.
umetaro’s still correct here once you ignore the red herrings, ass-covering evasions and absurd reasoning. I don’t recall umetaro arguing that Korea did not influence Japan.
Using a super weapon to defeat the numerically superior Chinese is not a new tactic. It was the most successful tactic in Korean-Chinese warfare. Ul Ji Moon Duk and Kang Gam Chan, what did they use against the Chinese? ………………………….Water. Guess why Taiwan is split evenly between bowing down to Chinese pressure versus seeking state recognition? Sheer numerical superiority. The nuke is the equalizer to stop Chinese aggression. Perhaps the only one. They want North Korea. Even retired US Generals say so.
I’ve commented enough as it is on this issue so I’ll simply post the cliff notes version for everyone new to the debate.
I give you shorter Koguryeo…
Korea: Dokdo is ours! Koguryeo is ours! Gando is ours! Manchuria is ours! RAWR!
China: Hmmm, the history Koguryeo can be interpreted as part of the regional history of the Chinese dynastic period.
Korea: OMGWTFBBQ! They stole Koguryeo! The bastards!
China: But… its our territory.
Korea: OH NOS! They are also out to steal from our friendly but backwards Jucheist neighbors to the north!
China: Huh?
Korea: Corean POWAH! *Nukes You*
China: !
Clueless crowd: Those dastardly commies!
/end shorter Koguryeo
The problem is, is that China admittedly has a perhaps not undeserved reputation as a authoritarian nascent hegemon and an altogether not very popular reputation simply by being the 800lb gorilla next door.
Unfortunately, most of the petite bourgeoisie who fancy themselves intellectuals are wholely incapable of independent thinking, particularly when such popular pre-fabricated paradigms are available. China = communist dictatorship = up to no good!
By accepting such a paradigm, they are entirely incapable of understanding or even bothering to search further for the root cause behind the entire issue. Which has been South Korea’s shrill and consistent revanchism on both the active political and popular fronts. Illogical and asinine official demands for actual PRC territory coupled with widespread and widespread popular irridentist fantasies are all mutely swept under the rug to indulge in the fiction that China is out the absorb “Korean” territory. The Korean’s, unable to face their own psychosis, projects it onto someone else.
“China: Hmmm, the history Koguryeo can be interpreted as part of the regional history of the Chinese dynastic period.”
No, that’s not what China is saying. They are saying Koguryo was one of provincial state of China - in other words, all the territory right down to the Han river in Seoul as former Chinese territory invaded and taken by Shilla kingdom (I’m surprised the Chinese are not claiming that kingdom as Chinese as well - not that they won’t, sometime in the future).
Jing, then what do you think Mongolians did to deserve this?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/1a6986.....e2340.html
Are you going to blame it on them too, that they’re outright pissed off at China for undermining their history and cultural identity?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/wor.....23264.html
And is China simply a 800lb gorilla next door? It’s a 800lb gorilla that ate its nextdoor neighbor when it was only 100lb, then got into a major fight with another nextdoor neighbhor when it was only 300lb. Now, this 800lb gorilla is running around shouting at its neighbors that “that house used to be mine!!!” What can we expect from such an unscrupolous neighbor when it reaches 1500lb?
I recall a Chosun Ilbo columnist, a Korea University professor on political science if I remember correctly, making a very pithy argument on China. It is that regardless of China’s intentions in its historical distortions, the indisputable fact is that it’s an unscrupolous and unstable state that cannot be trusted. For instance, if your nextdoor neighbor, who’s piling up guns and ammo in his house, forges documents that your house used to be his, then it’d certainly be wise to buy some guns yourself, bring in some security equipment and keep in close contact with the law enforcement. Also, if this neighbor was doing it to other neighbors as well, it’s apt to make a concerted effort to keep a watch on this unscrupolous neighbor and prepare for any possible violence.
And if China’s intention was to secure its territorial hold onto Manchuria, then they miserable failed. Don’t you realize that China’s provocative measures can only *fuel* irredentism in Korea? Especially when it’s claiming that the core of Korean collectivity on territorial grounds, don’t you think more and more Koreans will be convinced that the way to resolve this problem for all is to get rid of the territorial basis that China has to claim on Koguryo? So, the fact is, either China’s completely stupid, or it does have political intentions other than securing its territories.
When China, communist or otherwise, starts getting honest about history, there is the risk that the PRC will shrink in half and end up with some mighty hostile ex-colonies on its western flank. Sadly, regional if not world peace requires the world to humor Chinese delusions.
try again cm, thats what the Koreans are claiming and the Western press has been lazily repeating.
cydevil “then what do you think Mongolians did to deserve this?”
Does one even need to ask? For destroying the proto-industrial society of Song China, I would not be amiss if the Mongols had simply been exterminated, a fate they themselves were fond of visiting upon others. Simply crushing them into eternal irrelevance and destroying all traces of their barbarous history is a close second. (I’ve probably roused the Marmotess with this one!)
The rest of your post simply proves my point. The house you speak of? It IS already is China’s. Any and all ideological justification is just icing on the cake. Let me put it pluntly in another little scenario.
Korea: You know, that house of yours belongs to me.
China: No, im pretty sure its mine.
Korea: You are stealing my house!
Korea doesn’t need anyone to “fuel” it’s lunacy. Just look at the state of it’s dysfunctional relations with what should be its two closest allies, the United States and Japan. Korea is perfectly capable of flagellating itself into a frenzy and the whole Koguryeo/Gando/Manchuria what have you issue as I mentioned had been active in Korea before anyone in China knew it as anything but an old name in a history book.
That Koreans are even remotely convinced they can “resolve” the issue by “getting rid of the territorial basis of China’s claim” as you put it simply proves those who believe so are delusional. Unless the Koreans have some magical powder of a kind used for other than sniffing, I don’t see them realistically making some 200 million Chinese citizens kimchee lovers overnight. Unless of course you happen believe that the Korean wave will push them towards seccession?
One final point regarding China, or at least the Communist Party that rules it. Yes it is completely stupid, or at least single track where it feels it’s core interests are at stake. Where a soft caress may sway the day, the party believes nothing to be as effective as a clenched fist. Compared to tanks and gendarmes, this NE asia history project is the height of subtlety for the communists.
Jing, what about the “US island chain” ?
I had to play a lot of dumb-dumb to my friend to make him talk more about it.
He’s from mainland China.
Why does the PRC Navy want to expand into the Pacific Ocean?
Moreover, not for nothing, but the Koreans aren’t exactly blameless here—the NE Project may very well be defensive in nature. After all, while I have yet to read Chinese lawmakers making territorial claims on large swaths of North Korea, 59 Korean lawmakers DID sign a bill virtually claiming sovereignty over Gando. It’s not like Koreans are particularly shy about pointing out how much of Manchuria used to be Korean. That’s not a defense of the NE Project… just an observation.
It should also be noted—since you brought up Genghis Khan—that Korean attitudes toward Mongolia often border on historical appropriation. And even Korean Goguryeo scholars engage from time to time in the same kind of nonsense the Chinese do—like calling for incorporating Jin and Qing history into Korea’s.
Mr. Koehler,
I think you’ve pointed out some very interesting cases, because they are the very ones that prove my point - the PRC government is absolutely stupid if its intention was to secure territorial security of Manchuria. Both cases, that of Korean claims on Gando and Jin/Qing dynasties, were made as *countermeasures* to China’s Northeast Project.
As for Mongolians, a lot of Koreans would think that the two people are related and cherish such a relationship, but I believe our claims amount to nothing like that of ideologically-driven claims made by Chinese. Korean ethnic nationalism is compatible with exclusive homogeneity, not expansionist heterogeneity that Chinese “Zhonghua Minzu” ideology employs. Nonetheless, I admit we do have our share of idiots, but the difference is that our government doesn’t sponsor such expansionism, nor does the Korean mainstream historical society.
Jing, so Mongolians committed some atrocities hundreds of years ago, and that somehow justifies claiming Gehnghis Khan as a Chinese? I don’t see the point.
As for China, it has “clenched its fist” one too many times, and is already regarded an unscrupolous troublemaker in the neighborhood. I think you should be more worried about China’s dysfuctnional relationship with its neighbors. You see, we didn’t invade Japan and kill tens of thousands of their civilians like China did to Vietnam. And what dependable security alliances does China have? Does it have the moral authority to secure such alliances with its neighboring states? I doubt it.
Wikipedia is just a trouble maker.
the whole koguryo issue is just so dumb. it is pointless to bring up the issue. korea does not want manchuria… maybe we want gando but that’s about it. chinese need to relax bc korea does not want her land. they should peacefully let nk absorb into sk so there will be just one Korea (or Corea :D).
one thing i realized is that in east asia, history brings nothing but trouble. all east asian countries tried to forget certain part of their history or they get too obsessed with certain part of their history. why cant we just look forward and be more like europe?
‘umetaro’s still correct here once you ignore the red herrings, ass-covering evasions and absurd reasoning. I don’t recall umetaro arguing that Korea did not influence Japan.’ slim
here we go again. just make a statement and leave it at that. that’s all you ever do. just in case you might actually argue a point:
1. about what is umetaro correct? other than criticize me, i don’t see him making a point, though i do see him using implication to suggest that the imjin war counts as influence on the korean people. the author said the koreans are moving their history back one thousand years so as to predate japanese influence. the imjin war happened in the late 1500s. the author’s implication of ‘influence’ is about culture. the japanese had no influence the evolution of korean culture until the 20th century. are you saying that it did?
moving on, what ‘ass-covering evasions’ and ‘absurd reasoning’? you don’t say in your post. but then, you never do.
people who post here should be made to address the issue rather than attack the poster. some people seem to be shown more tolerance than others.
*****
i’ve always said that this koguryeo thing is korea’s fault but it ain’t korea with a twenty billion dollar history project. you don’t counter a claim (ie gando) by making up lies. korea’s talk about gando is based on fact. china’s talk about koguryeo is based on politics. if china is so worried, then, why don’t they say it? why make up some bullshit lie?
‘one should be careful in playing with a hive of hornets.’ kirogian proverb
‘Has Baduk co-opted Pawi’s identity?’ corpy carly
lol
At the risk of sounding like Shakuhachi, Cydevil you’re the archetypical kyopo who can’t see the facts written on the walls.
What Marmot brought up are only some recent examples. Like Don Quixote tilting at the windmill, Korean revanchists ludicrous demands go all the way back to the late 19th century.
Frankly, China doesn’t really need to “secure” Manchuria, a couple of million soldiers and a hundred million or so Chinese living there more than suffice. The way I see it, this is essentially a Chinese way of saying “f*ck you” to the Koreans. Now one might find this as a bit confrontational, but figuring how the Korean polity responds even to accomodation (see U.S. example) with pissing in the face, it is likely the only thing that the Koreans will understand.
In regards to the Gando issue. The claims essentially stem from the fact that a bunch of illegal immigrants from Korea settled in the region in the late 19th century and didn’t want to pay taxes to the Qing government so they claimed it as Korean territory. True story!
One final point:
good old fashioned provincial racialism is such an improvement over inclusionary imperialism. Note sarcasm.
59 South Korean legislators submit bill claiming Chinese territory + “Does not compute” kyopo programming = Government doesn’t sponsor expansionism!
Arguments that are ridiculous from the start, such as ones that insist that a war of pillage and plunder that burned everything of note in a whole country had “no influence” on said country, are self-refuting. And that’s what I like about strident followers of the great Korean sage Fallacious: They save us time by refuting themselves.
Jing, I recall you’re the one who claimed Chinese historical rights to Pyong Yang. That’s not true anymore, since China is being accused of trying to sinicize its neighbors by blood (like the Manchus, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and practically all tribes) and trying to expand into North Korea?
Why are millions of Chinese troops bordering North Korea, anyway? Shouldn’t the 1 million active troop level on the 38th be more than enough to counter 30k US troops and about 750k ROK ones?
Millions of Chinese armed men on the Aprok and Tumen rivers. Sorry, Jing, I guess it’s Yalu for you.
Who are they for?
I suppose Jing, the Chinese concept of a US island chain is totally foreign news to you?
You should look into it. It gets PRC nationals all fired up with glowing patriotism. Their “right” to militarily explore the Pacific Ocean.
Free Tibet.
http://centurychina.com/cgi-bi.....V=0&p=
A piece of what true Chinese Nationalists think.
Crazy kyopos, heh?
‘Arguments that are ridiculous from the start, such as ones that insist that a war of pillage and plunder that burned everything of note in a whole country had “no influence” on said country, are self-refuting. And that’s what I like about strident followers of the great Korean sage Fallacious: They save us time by refuting themselves.’
well, then , slim, according to your logic, the germans had a vast influnce on the developement of most of europe and yet i never see anybody use the fact that germany destroyed much of europe as evidence of it’s influnece. lol.
you can’t refute a point and you really need to read my post again to find those points. alas, all you can do is talk your shit. and why marmot and his deputy allow you to get away with calling me a ‘fallacious sage’ shows their bias. btw, you notice umetaro chose not to back up his claim that ‘90% wondering the countryside’ = influence?
lastly, jing, your people are the new evil of the world so you shouldn’t be surprised that people are hostile to your clan. and besides, all that red and gold, it’s just cheap and gaudy looking.
‘koreans want to push their history back a thousand years so as to predate chinese and japanese influence.’ author of cited article
‘the japanese had no influence on the developement of korea and it’s culture.’ sage pawi
Chinese leadership in North Korea, result = hell.
US and Japanese influence in South Korea = Top 20 economy in the world. Now better than Japan and US at select industries.
Ah, but you said Korea ignored Japan until 100 years ago and Umetaro showed you how fatuous such a statement was.
You could have just corrected yourself and stated the obvious observation that cultural influence flowed to, not from, Japan for most of history, but that would have been an admission that your point was entirely off-topic.
So instead you dug a deeper hole for yourself … and you STILL seem happy to keep digging. Knock yourself out!!!
Jing, if you’re suggesting that I’m a Korean-American, then you’re wrong. I’ve lived more years in China than in the United States. I know there was ultranationalistic irredentism in Korea, but it was usually limited to a minority group of extremists. However, the Chinese provocation only gave more legitimacy as well as popularity to this irredentism, so, in essense, if it was China’s intentions to secure their hold on Manchuria, they did a major screw up by spilling gasoline over a small fire. And a nation that gives a “big fuck you” over some irrendetist ultrationalists is certainly unscruplous and untrustworthy. Get my point? Whatever the case, the fact remains - China cannot be trusted, and its “peaceful rise” is but a ludicrous farce.
And again, the bill proposal submitted by 59 South Korean legislators was made in *reaction* to China’s Northeast Project. So really, what you call “Korean expansionism” was a consequence of what you call China’s “big fuck you”.
‘you could have said the flow of culture was from korea to japan.’ slim
finally, you concede my point. thanks, slim.
18 “I believe in Mutual Nuclear Deterrance.”
I’ve always preferred the coldwar TLA, MAD - “Mutually Assured Destruction”
Come on whats this fuss about the Imjin wars, Pawikrogi clearly qualified that Japan wasn’t an influence because the Koreans ignored them!!!
Let’s just face it some people don’t understand the english language. “Influence” means exactly that it may be small, it may be large, it may flow in both directions, but to say that a mjor power invading you had no influence on your culture, or that germany had no influence on the rest of europe shows a clear lack of understanding of the word “influence”. Still can’t get rid of those damn Beamers and Mercs even now.
How many of you, including you Jing, believe that China will sit idle and let South Korea absorb North Korea and have US influence on Chinese border? Hands?
I mean, the Chinese claim that Mongols (including Gengis Khan) were Chinese.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....hina30.xml
The pattern here is clear for everyone to see.
‘Let’s just face it some people don’t understand the english language. “Influence” means exactly that it may be small, it may be large, it may flow in both directions, but to say that a mjor power invading you had no influence on your culture, or that germany had no influence on the rest of europe shows a clear lack of understanding of the word “influence”. Still can’t get rid of those damn Beamers and Mercs even now.’
yeah, i understand the word ‘influence’ just fine. i wonder if the author was referring to the imjin war when he was telling us the koreans want to move their history back by a thousand years so as to remove japanese influnece. i doubt it. i’ll bet he just assumed that since japan is a major power today it MUST have had some influence on korea. nope.
‘but to say that a major power invading you…’
japan was no major power. you do remember this ‘major power’ lost, right? yeah, yeah, it wasn’t just because of chinese intervention.
1.chinese intervention
2.insurgents harrassing japanese supply routes by land
3.yi sun shin blocking supply route by sea
the flow of culture and influnce was from korea to japan (can you refute that? nope). japan had no influnce on the korean people and their culture. btw, since you say it did, can you tell us how? nope.
thank you for allowing me to correct you. please have a good day.
‘yi sun shin’ should read Yi Sun Shin.
sorry to post one more time but re: imjin war
korea had better technology and better weapons.
‘war of pottery and metal type printing’ japanese name for imjin war
influence indeed.
Hmmm, anyway, I installed mediawiki.
http://law4u.net/mediawiki .
Much contribution is needed.
If here’s anyone to help to improve the program at my site, contact me via law4u.net at gmail.com at MSN.
“yeah, i understand the word ‘influence’ just fine.”
Then why do you keep repeating yourself and proving that you don’t?
The fact that the Japanese withdrew from Korea does not mean it had no influence. If the Imjin wars had no influence on korea and the koreans then you wouldn’t even know about them.
Pawikirogi,
reference:
1.chinese intervention
2.insurgents harrassing japanese supply routes by land
3.yi sun shin blocking supply route by sea
4. korea had better technology and better weapons.
My sole reading on the Imjin was was Stephen Turnbull’s “Samuari Invasion”. It left me with the following impression:
1. chinese intervention - a mixed blessing, and not in sufficient numbers to eject the Japanese. And, Chinese troops were as apt to plunder the locals as the Japanese.
2. “guerrillas”, or “righteous armies” might be a better term, as an insurgent’s aim is to overthrow his own government and replace it with another. Yes, they were a thorn in the Japanese side, but not decisively so.
3. Yi Sun-shin blocking the supply routes. Yi was certainly the most intelligent and forceful Korean field commander, but he never had the resources to do anything more than disrupt Japanese supplies and, more importantly, reinforcements. He understood this, and employed what force he had accordingly. Hitting smaller Japanese forces. Hitting the ships of Japanese forces who had landed and were engaged in pillaging. And employing Korean technological superiority (artillery and compound bows that outranged their Japanese equivalents) to inflict maximum damage on the Samurai before they could get close enough to board, which was when Japanese superiority in close fighting skills would come into play. Unfortunately, Yi was not astute enough in self-promotion and politicking, as his fellow commanders were. Thus they claimed his victories for their own, while avoiding the Japanese, and in the end were instrumental in his relieval. In short, the only light of the Imjin War could not overcome the grevious faults of the system he was a part of. Like Spain’s El Cid Campeador, Admiral Yi was a far worthier subject than his sovereign deserved. Korea’s resistance can be credited with ending Hideyoshi’s plans to conquer China and India, but the evidence is that these goals were beyond the capabilities of his Samurai based army.
4. Yes, Koreans enjoyed technological superiority in artillery and the compound bow, but they lacked small arms, and their cavalry were not armed to withstand the Samurai in battle. Worse, the burocracy and political system that supported it was not able to exploit the technological superiority that Korea did possess. Their king, and I must presume that many of their (politically appointed) generals, were cowards, and not worthy of the Korean people. Which is probably why Yi Sun-shin has been venerated by the Korea people for so many years. One wonders if the Japanese really killed him in that final battle, or if some agent of the court, or his rivals, decided to do away with him as a threat to the dynasty.