The New York Times has weighed in on Japanese Prime Minister Abe Shinzo’s attitude toward the comfort women issue:
Mr. Abe seems less concerned with repairing Japan’s sullied international reputation than with appealing to a large right-wing faction within his Liberal Democratic Party that insists that the whole shameful episode was a case of healthy private enterprise. One ruling party lawmaker, in his misplaced zeal to exculpate the Army, even suggested the offensive analogy of a college that outsourced its cafeteria to a private firm.
Japan is only dishonored by such efforts to contort the truth.
The 1993 statement needs to be expanded upon, not whittled down. Parliament should issue a frank apology and provide generous official compensation to the surviving victims. It is time for Japan’s politicians — starting with Mr. Abe — to recognize that the first step toward overcoming a shameful past is acknowledging it.
Now, for the record, I think it’s ridiculous for the U.S. Congress to lecture Japan on historical issues, as I said here. Curzon of Coming Anarchy does an even better job of explaining why the Congressional effort to call Japan out on its understanding of its own history is “batshit crazy.”
Be that as it may, if Abe has a beef with the U.S. Congress, he should have simply told the United States (or Congress at least) where to stick it. There were plenty of ways to do so—noting how Virginia only last month became the first U.S. state to issue a statement of regret about slavery for starters.
What he didn’t have to do, however, is try to start a debate over the definition of coercion. I mean, if the Chinese passed a resolution calling on the United States to acknowledge and apologize for slavery, I might remind Beijing that it has more than enough historical baggage upon which to reflect without concerning itself with U.S. history. What I wouldn’t do is start debating the role African kingdoms played in the trans-Atlantic slave trade.
Now, I will grant that if it were easy for countries to own up to their own history, the United States would have fessed-up and apologized for its long list of sins ages ago and the Turks wouldn’t be going ballistic anytime someone mentions “Armenians” and “genocide” in the same sentence. Even so, Abe—and especially Abe, given that his track record on the comfort women issue could be charitably described as perplexing—would be doing himself and his nation a favor by issuing a clear apology as the prime minister to the comfort women. He doesn’t even have to elaborate on the historical details; in fact, it’s probably better that he doesn’t. It would go a long way in dispelling the perception that the 1993 apology—issued not by the prime minister but by the chief cabinet secretary and followed in 1995 by the establishment of a private rather than public fund—was nothing but a way for Tokyo to apologize for the issue while not really apologizing.
108 Comments
I cannot begin to describe how bored I am with talk of national apologies. Really, who give a f***? I would far rather Abe (along with all Asian leaders) lead a move toward an open and frank discussion of the past. Anytime I hear a politician talk about how “Such and such a topic will make our young people hate our country,” I really want to barf. If the truth is not on your side, who the hell’s side are you on?
More specifically for this issue, I think apologies and compensation funds are pretty much useless. But I would like to see the Japanese government leading the historical exploration of this subject (and not deny-deny-deny until someone digs up an irrefutable document). But what do I know?
I do think Koreans’ endless demands for apology from Japan are getting ridiculous, but Abe’s denial of a historical fact is just repulsive on a whole new level. Especially when you consider many of former comfort women are still alive today, wanting to have back the dignity that Japan has taken away from them decades ago.
Even sadder is the fact that Abe’s popularity will probably rise now that he satisfied the right-wing nuts in Japan.
Abe was flat out wrong to make the denial he did, particularly in light of documents that came forward in ~1992. I’m not sure if Japan owes Korea et al another apology, nor do I think it would do much good as the Korean’s would only ask for another (unless perhaps Abe apologized to a Liberation Day throng in Seoul Plaza and immediately thereafter committed ritual suicide, all on national TV – beyond finger chopping).
Overall it was an amazingly inept diplomatic move, considering ROK ties and ongoing talks with North Korea on the abduction issue.
Nor do I agree with the U.S. resolution; not our business and there are other, more private ways to express official and unofficial opinions.
I’m guessing this will be a post for heavy moderation.
I want to ask just simple question. I am (honestly) a little bit tired of this intentionaly misinformation from the “yellow paper” NYT.
Do you have ever read this?
http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/w.....etter.html
Do you know that most of the “private rather than public fund” money is covered almost by the govermental money?
Do you know why it is so?
The reason for that is because of some “dirty negotians” both by the Korean governments and the Japanese governments.
Sorry it is all in Japanese, but there is an interesting comments by Acefase in the mutantfrog.
http://www.mutantfrog.com/2007.....dumb-when/
The 18th comment is the relevant comment which includes a disscusion from the Japanese national diet, 1997,march 12th and an interview why the Kono statement came out as a compromise among the Korean government and the Japanese government at this time, to cover up certain political problems which were unacceptable for both governments. maybe someone who can read Japanese could help with the translation in english(Sonagi?)
Do you know about the interview the former president of Korea, Roh Tae-woo? He gave an interview to the Japanese journal “Bungei shunju” in 1994,march, and criticised that the Japanese activitists(feminists) and media “created” this problem, and fueled the anti-Japanese feelings of Korean, and let it exploded. He said that the “Comfort women” problem was not a “Korean” problem at all, everybody knew about the comfort women, until the 90ties, but nobody thought that this was a problem. So, according to him, this was a purly “Japanese” problem.
I am realy tired of these politics.
I am tired of the intentionaly misquote by the NYT.
Do you know that these “narrow definition(directly kiddnapping by the Japanese Army and Police)” and the “broader definition (resposibilities of creating maintainig the comforte women system, thus dragging deceived woment to comfort places”) arguments was not raised by conservatives in Japan, but after a conffesion of a certain Yoshida Seiji, who said the he kidnapped 1000 korean women following the order of the Japanese army was exposed to be a fiction, and thus Japanese feminist with accordance of Korean activitist insited that maybe the “narrow definifition” that Japanese millitary and police directly hunt for korean women was wrong, but the “broader definiton”, that Japan created a system which allowed to korean and japanese pimps to deceive, coerce women to prositute consit a “coercion in the broader sense”, so the concept of coercion is stil alive?
I have posted what i think here.
http://asiapages.wordpress.com.....ment-18007
feel free to condem me as a revisionist, a right winger, an aplogist.
I am just tired. I get some sleep.
I’m not 100% sure, but 99% sure that this US telling of Japan what is bad and good is consistent with US policy in the past.
Fully consistent. Absolutely consistent.
Case 1. Apartheid. South Africa.
Case 2. Humans Rights. China.
The onus is on Japan. Proven by previous cases of consistently denying first, coming out when some whistleblower comes out, and there is more than enough proof that they burned a lot of paper in 1945.
The strategy was classic. Work at a factory, poor girl. High pay.
The key difference is the use of their own military docs.
tomojiro, what you say is reasonable. Although I don’t agree 100%.
‘all this is based on a misquote by the nyt.’
yeah, then, why after several days, none of the major news organizations have moved to correct this ‘misquote’. japanese is not an obscure language. i’m sure many fair minded people (rather than sycophants for japan) can speak it. why hasn’t it been corrected?
there’s no misqoute here. he said what he said right on march 1. chose a great day to do it, huh?
‘the us congress has no business with this…’
not too long ago, the turks were condemned by congress. they can do the same with regards to the japanese and comfort women specially after the truthful testimony we heard these women give the other week. i support the resolution and hope it will pass.
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goodbye.Re: #3: Is this any business of the US? Well, considering that the US weighed in on the Nazi war crimes after WWII and helped try the Germans who committed crimes against humanity (even though the victims weren’t American, as far as we know)…and considering that the US weighed in on apartheid in South Africa in the 1970s and 1980s….and considering that the South Korean government didn’t do crap for the Comfort Women….why isn’t it the US’s business? What IS the US’s business?
Mike Honda’s motives for this gesture/bill are not entirely clear and probably constituent-driven, but US strategic interests in Asia are poorly served by having its closest ally estranged from important neighbors like China and Korea — particularly over matters in which there is no principled argument one can make in defense of Tokyo.
I’m sure, as Tomojiro points out, there is plenty that is fishy about how Seoul handled this matter in secret dealings with Japan over the years. That seems often to be the case in ROK agreements with USFK, China etc.: reach a deal, cover it up and then deny everything when there is public outrage.
I don’t know what Mike Honda’s motives were, but even if they were constituent-driven….isn’t that the point of being a Representative of the people?
“noting how Virginia only last month became the first U.S. state to issue a statement of regret about slavery ”
Kindly remind me, sir, of the last time a US government offical, federal, state, or local, denied the existence of slavery or claimed that there was no coercion involved.
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
Apologies are meaningless. America is actually DOING something about the past.
I am and above meant to be flatly neutral about Rep Honda’s motives.
regardless of government deals, i think if you do any academic investigation of the literature available on the comfort women issue, you’ll find that it’s problematized by domestic Korean nationalism in several ways. Certainly, it’s become one of the lightning rods along with tokdo for korea’s nationalist pissing contest with japan. The important thing is, there are surviving women alive today who want an apology (however useless it might be to you, or korea, or the US, whatever) and money to die comfortably with, which is given by the japanese government (some of them don’t even care about that). This is so much more real than grappling with an objectified history and “DOING something about the past.” Abe’s lies have victims now.
point being, these women are not necessarily well represented or representative of “the Korean state,” and that shouldn’t matter. In fact, Korea has just about as far to come in helping them as Japan does.
Robert wrote:
Abe should apologize to the comfort women for what, Robert? For the Japanese military systematically kidnapping women to be used as “sex slaves”? Why should Japan apologize for something she claims she didn’t do?
Yes, the Japanese military arranged for its troops to have access to prostitutes, but that is something that even the US military has done.
In the late 1970s, when I was stationed in Korea in the US navy, the US military worked with Korean government officials to help ensure that the thousands of Korean prostitutes working in the bars outside US military bases were disease free. If the women in the bars did not get their weekly VD exams, the US military would put the offending bars off limits.
During that time, Korean pimps regularly lured women to the bars with promises of high-paying waitress jobs, but after arriving, the women were quickly put into high-interest debt, which they were forced to pay off by prostituting themselves.
Considering the above, Robert, would you also have President Bush apologize for its military’s kidnapping women to be used as “sex slaves”? Or would you argue that the United States did not kidnap the women and that it was the pimps who were “coercing” the women to be prostitutes, not the US military?
gbevers: you make an excellent point, but it’s not really the issue, is it? Certainly there’s plenty of room to argue that prostitution in any and all contexts is the product of an inherently unequal, coercive patriarchal system of exploiting women. To rationalize, from that, the inadequacy of apology or, even worse, that apology and compensation is uncalled for — that is, to frame prostitution normatively — is a complete moral departure that I’m not sure you want to make. Which is why I think it’s important to consider this from the individual perspective of that group of women who were exploited, and not through a nationalist screen of male shame-politics and dick-measuring.
In the case of obvious victims of crimes against humanity, and the institutional apparatus that carried out those crimes, are an apology and compensation so ridiculous? And to argue for them in the case of the comfort women of korea is not to say that it is justified in any other context — EVEN, or ESPECIALLY in the context of a capitalist free-market.
Gerry, the key is they didn’t see US docs. US govt wasn’t involved and you seem to have a weak spot for Japan with regard to everything, pretty much.
Some LDP members have already voiced that Comfort Women did not exist AND Nanjing did not happen. Given that many Japanese Nationlists deny Unit 731 as well, it’s only a matter of time before they feel secure enough to announce that Unit 731 was a lie, too.
Gerry, with respect to King Sejong, would you say King Sejong taught the Japanese to adopt the now ubiquotous strategy of
” offer the poor girl a clean labor job. Then, trap her with a sex job.”?
By the way, how about some proof of your US Korean 1970s claim?
You are free to find the March, 2007, LDP statement that both Comfort Women and Nanjing are lie. It’s available, if you google it.
Mike Honda is an honorable man with the purest of intentions, but if you’re wondering why he is able to spend so much time on something like this, it might be worth noting that his district, in Santa Clara County, supposedly has the largest Korean-American population in Northern California. His district is also the backdrop for the “New White Flight,” a story in the NYT not so long ago about how Asian immigrants and Asian-American students are causing whites to leave because high school was becoming too competitive. Needless to say most of those Asian-Americans are not of Japanese descent, even though San Jose still has an old Japantown, a relatively lively one, as Japantowns in the U.S. go these days. At any rate, though, I’m glad that it’s coming from him if the U.S. House of Representatives is going to pass something like this at all.
Sorry seems to be the hardest word for Japanese politicians, huh? Sad thing is that the Survivors of the “comfort women” system are now elderly and that their days are numbered…
A sincere bow of apology from Mr. Abe and cabinet members will heal the soul of these “comfort women”. Only a deep bow needed to heal the past…A deep bow that the Japanese politicians, gov. Officials, CEO,..gave to Japanese nationals whenever they have to apology.
If, as one poster claims, this resolution was in the U.S.’s interests, let’s simply look at how it furthered U.S. interests or not.
So far, we have irritated the U.S.’s most important and steadfast ally in Northeast Asia.
Japan has not apologized or offered fresh recompensation to comfort women; instead it has dug in its heels. Counterproductive. As another poster noted, if the U.S. were sincerely interested in prodding Japan to action, it would have chosen other, more effective ways to do so.
The resolution has done nothing to mitigate anti-U.S. sentiment among Koreans and within the Korean government.
As I said earlier, and as Oranckay more eloquently described, the resolution is nothing more than the pandering product of identity politics.
Koizumi already apologised. Is every new Japanese Prime Minister expected to repeat the apology to all eternity?
The Japanese government cannot establish a public fund because all issues between Japan and Korea were resolved by treaty in 1965. The Japanese government already paid the Korean government, with the expectation that the Korean government would use the money to pay individual claims. If the Japanese government set up a public fund, it would open the country to endless lawsuits, and not just about comfort women either. It simply cannot be done.
“I’m sure, as Tomojiro points out, there is plenty that is fishy about how Seoul handled this matter in secret dealings with Japan over the years.”
Let me try to understand this. Abe said something stupid that most of the world (except for Japan and her admirers), think is dishonest. But it’s Koreans’ fault again for whining about apologies and trying to deal “fishy” secret dealings with Japan. That’s why Abe was forced to say those things which are all true anyway. Koreans please STFU.
Really? I was watching a Japanese TV show on Youtube, and they claimed that Mike Honda was a notorious race hustler. They said “He is the type that turns race into money”.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement here. A bow of apology from Japan will not likely be regarded as sincere (regardless of whether it is or not) under these circumstances. I cannot think of one time when an outside apology has actually been accepted (please fill me in if I am wrong). I think that it would only add fuel to the fire and be grounds for further demands.
As for Honda, he is simply trying to assure himself future employment by pandering for votes. I have yet to hear about any possible positive benefits this may have other than giving interest groups a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
The apartheid and human rights in China are not strictly valid comparisons in my opinion. If I understand your comment correctly, the US involvement was (and is) regarding current events - not a historical (and disputed) events. The US involvement in the German war crimes was hardly independent action either.
Somebody mentioned that reflection must come from within - and that certainly is the case here. If it can be proven (other than by contradictory testimonials) then Japan would have little choice but to act. In the current political climate, an ‘appeasement’ apology made without concrete proof would probably do more harm than good.
Who Benefits from this resolution? Cui Bono? Certainly not the US. However, a lot of countries that are deeply involved in the comfort women issue would like to see a rift in the US-Japan relationship. The US is in its most internationally isolated position it has been in for more than a century, perhaps ever. How can the US afford to risk so much for the ethnic hatreds and feuds of minority groups living in the US? It makes no sense.
“I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement here. A bow of apology from Japan will not likely be regarded as sincere (regardless of whether it is or not) under these circumstances.”
What do you think about then, Japanese parliament passing a bill to officially apologize to everyone - all Asian comfort women, germ warfare victims, forced laborers, allied POW’s, etc. Then set up a fund to help the former victims. It’s never been done, so how do you know it’s not going to be enough to at least start the healing process? What is more inflaming to Japan’s neighbors other then apologies mixed with contradictory behaviors that cancels out any apologies?
cm,
I would then think that the Japanese government is incredibly stupid for writing a blank check on issues as emotionally charged as those. Not to mention it would be a bad precedent for a money grab by placing current values on historical events.
If, as you say, that would “start the healing process”, what would actually finish it? This issue (among others) will outlive us all….
trying to have it both ways?
It did not happen. No need to apologize.
versus
They apologized. No need to do more. They paid. No need to do more. Well, in this scenario, their PM was “wise” enough to say, there is no proof, taking back/revising the apology, etc.
“what would actually finish it?”
Time.
I have to second wjk. I’m confused myself with this double speak. If I say we don’t need to apologize anymore because we already did it many times, and by the way, there were no evidence that we did anything wrong. I mean, does this make any sense to you?
Koizumi’s “apology” was, at best, a personal one. And a muted one at that, done in the form of a letter. He also sent a 2003 letter to Filipino comfort women.
But for the record, in theory, no, I don’t think every Japanese prime minister should apologize from here to eternity. But Abe is a different matter—thanks to stuff like this, there are some real questions about his views on the subject, and now Kyodo News is reporting that Abe wants the government to reexamine whether the Japanese army forced women into the wianbu even while he claims his government will stand by the 1993 Kono Statement that acknowledged that it did.
I don’t see how a bilateral treaty has anything to do with the manner in which the Asian Women’s Fund was set up—even if we granted that the 1965 treaty resolved claims from Korea, that still wouldn’t resolve issues involving comfort women from The Philippines, Taiwan, China, Indonesia and the Netherlands. Again, for the record, I do recognize the complexity of the matter—further reparations to Korea and China were supposedly waived by bilateral agreements in ‘65 and ‘72, respectively. But given the improvements in the status of women in both Japan and Korea since 1965, wouldn’t you agree that Tokyo has a moral obligation to reexamine whether the 1965 agreement was really fair compensation for women who were serially raped by Japanese troops during the war?
I hate to say it, but the ‘double-speak’ depends on the definition. The apology does relate to a specific aspect of the history (as far as I know) but the scope of what is being asked right now is much greater.
It seems to be quite straightforward in the sense that the government can apologize for one but not the other as there is no current (concrete) proof that the expanded version happened (as defined by the Japanese government…not me).
Want to write some more but duty calls.
It is legitimate to question a prime minister’s view about history, sure. But it should be based on facts, not on hoax.
Due to the US congress bills, some politician inside the LDP were discussing whether the Kono statement should be changed or not. PM Abe was asked by a reporter, but not during an interview or a press conference, simply during walking what he thinks about it. He said that he will follow the Kono statement albeit the definition of coercion became different from the initial one (narrow definition to broader definition).
In other words, he said regardless of the movements inside LDP, that he will follow the Kono statement. That was just the same what he said when he became PM. He said about it during national diet disscussion, on TV. The next day it was reported on every major news papers.
http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=1259
Why did the media, Korean include, made not a fuzz about it when they felt that there was a problem in his view about the comfort women? I thought, everybody knew that he was a hawk, right? Isn’t here a hypocracy?
BUT this time, the NYT (intentionaly I suspect) dropped the context, changed what he said and reported “Abe has denied coercion of comfort women”. Now, I wonder when you became worried about his historical view.
After the NYT hoax?
Isn’t it a bit unfair to criticise someone based on hoax?
Ofcourse the question, whether his historical view is appropriate is a legitimate one. But everyone knew that he was a hawk but welcomed that he swallowed his hawkish view and did try to communicate with the Korean and the Chinese government, wasn’t it?
So, what changed since he became a PM? His historical view? His attitude toward the Korean and Chinese government? Did he said something inappropriate? I believe, nothing. at least until now.
Who is to blame here Abe? The Korean government? The US congress? No, NYT!
I am sorry, I wanted to write
“Who is to blame here Abe? The Korean activities? The US congress? No, NYT!”
By the way, no news here in Japan that Abe is trying a re-analys of the coercion. A friction of LDP politicians are named.
But if he actually do this, that would be the dumpest thing. He should shut up and leave the history to historian. Otherwise, he is gone. With a lot of damage to Japan.
Best
I actually left a meeting tonight in DC (actually northern VA) of Korean-Americans who have worked with Rep. Honda’s office to get this on the floor of the House.
I congratulated them on the fact that regardless of whether the issue is passed by the US House and then the Senate or not……we had done a lot of good by bringing this to the attention of the world (both offline and in the online world of blogs)….and shaking the very foundations of modern history as it is taught in Japan. Even when the South korean gov’t knew about what the Japanese had done to the Korean comfort women and how they tricked/forced them into being sex slaves….they did nothing. It took Americans of various ethnicities, but particularly Korean-American, to get this issue the attention it so long deserved…and I am happy to see it has made waves to the point it is being discussed.
I only hope we can move faster before these brave, heroic women all die off.
PM Abe’s remarks only help our cause. Thanks, Abe!
tomojiro—Of course, it doesn’t speak well of the New York Times that it’s using a questionable translation. And sure, the NYT probably carries more weight internationally than it should. But don’t you think part of the reason this is even an issue—and why people were so quick to pounce on him following the NYT article—is because Abe has a long history of making controversial statements about the comfort women?
JK—
This is something that I think we really must consider when discussing whether the ‘65 treaty really put this issue to rest. Not for nothing, but South Korea was run at the time by Park Chung-hee, who—one could imagine—might have held the same attitude toward the comfort women then as he probably did when he was a second lieutenant in the Kwantung Army—”Shut up and take one for the team.” And at any rate, I seriously doubt that either party in 1965 really understood the gravity of what had happened to those women.
tomojiro, Korean silence was due to Lt. Okamoto, Chun Doo Hwan, military govt, etc.
tomojiro, assuming what you are saying is true, you do have a point. But New York Times is not a tabloid paper. New York Post is, but… New York Times has been caught though recently with a reporter making up a story without ever having gone to the site to cover the story. Still hard to discount totally. This was also an AP story…
jk, credit is due to Japanese people who came out, too, with whatever information they felt they should express to the world.
tomojiro, what does jiro mean? Tomo I heard or understood to mean, “friends”? Mind explaning why Tomo goes into many Japanese male names, such as Tomokazu Ohka? Thank you.
Anti-Japan feeling is very strong in America. Just any auto workers in Detroit.
The US will pull troops out of Korea first. Then, when China-Japan relation starts to detriorate, the US will pull troops out of Japan as well, which is prudent because Americans do not want to get involved in this regional conflict between China and Japan.
Maybe this article of Japan-bashing is written by those working toward this goal.
i’m sure this is off topic, but regarding the famous China-Japan war, it’s more likely going to be a US-China war. I talked to a Chinese citizen, and he says China shot up its satellite to disable US ones. So that on a whim, they can take over Taiwan and break the island chain. Island chain? What the hell?From the Chinese view, US bases in South Korea, Japan, Guam, Saipan, Phillipines, and the military presence of Taiwan blocks China’s “rightful” right to venture into the Pacific Ocean militarily. From their view, if US military ships can go anywhere in the world, so can they. Taking Taiwan back is key to this.
Scary, isn’t it? Island Chain. Interesting view point.
[Comment deleted by Robert---Off Topic]
China is paying for more of the US national debt than Japan. The US cannot choose between China and Japan and it has to maintain the neutral stance toward two countries.Besides, if two countries go to war, it is great opportunity to pay back those debts by selling US weapon systems, war supplies, foods and general goods and services.
Let these two Asian relics duke it out in the Sea of Japan(no DongHae bs) and in Korean peninsula(Koreas will side with China). The US shouldn’t feel guilty at all. These two jokers want to fight it out. The US didn’t cause it; they have historical reasons to hate each other’s guts.
Let the children play.
[Comment deleted by Robert---Off Topic]
hamel’s old maps indicate Sea of Coree. And VANK had nothing to do with it. Just old maps.[Comment deleted by Robert---Off Topic]
wjk,Yes, China hates the US military presence in South Korea. And, recent budding relationship between North Korea and the US smells of a “deal”.
Maybe China and the US have struck a deal exchanging the withdrawal of troops from SK and China guaranteeing the elimination of NK nuke.
The Chinese money has arrived in Washington.
[Comment deleted by Robert---Off Topic]
let’s keep mind that abe is the one causing problems for abe. the nyt did not manufacture abe’s statements; mr abe did that for himself. if he was misquoted, why isn’t he pushing that? answer: he wasn’t misquoted.
btw, have you noticed a lack of reaction on the part of the koreans? i don’t see any grand protest about this. and thank god! the way they are reacting now is the way they should act in the future-quietly but with dignity.
’santa clara lots of koreans….’ oranky
your implication is that korean votes are pushing honda. but how many koreans actually vote in his district? i doubt there are many compared to their actual numbers. isn’t it possible he’s doing what he’s doing because it’s the right thing to do? i hope you still believe in altruism.
lastly, i hope abe does more to get this resolution passed in the house.
‘He also repeated his position that there is no proof that Japanese military officials took the women — from Japanese-occupied parts of Asia — by force to frontline brothels.’ the japan times march 8th from a story entitled: Abe firm: No Coercion
just another misquote?
http://www.latimes.com/news/pr.....ws-comment
Baduk wrote:
“Anti-Japan feeling is very strong in America. Just any auto workers in Detroit.”
I am from a Michigan family of auto workers,and I can tell you that the people of Michigan quit blaming the Japanese a long time ago. It is perfectly safe to drive your Japanese or Korean car around Detroit without fearing key scratches.
Mike Honda is most certainly not appealing to a handful of elderly whites who still remember Pearl Harbor with his resolution.
Despite our many differences, Sonagi, it appears we have something in common. My family was an equal employer opportunity group with folks working at Ford’s, Chrysler, GM, the old Fisher Body and a couple of old-fashioned production tool fabrication shops. Pretty much all metal benders.
Wjk wrote:
Wjk,
First, you are assuming the women were duped. Second, you are assuming that it was the Japanese who duped them, not the Korean pimps. Third, I do not know who taught the Japanese about “comfort women,” but King Sejong suggested using them for his frontier troops in 1436, and he said the practice “had a long history.” Here is the link:
“King Sejong Ordered Comfort Women for His Troops”
You call that a reliable source, gbevers?
Then again, you once used http://www.kimsoft.com as a source to “prove” your point that most Koreans were collaborators with the Japanese. When a Korean said the site was known to be questionable, you asked how so. Then that Korean showed how the link also accused American troops for numerous, unprovoked atrocities against innocent Koreans. You then asked the Korean who put the links from http://www.kimsoft.com why he was slamming America so much, but everyone at the Korea Times, whether they be Korean and American and Canadian, understood that the Korean was posting examples of some of the crap on that site and that you were trying to play word games with the Korean who was showing this to you. But to you, if the source made accusations about Koreans it was okay, but when it made accusations about Americans, it was wrong.
If you have a point to make, use a reliable source to support your already reached negative conclusions about Koreans, gerry.
And yes, I think this comment was relevant to the discussion since it is a reply to another comment. At least I THINK it’s relevant to the discussion.
Robert writes that Abe “would be doing himself and his nation a favor by issuing a clear apology as the prime minister to the comfort women”, but that is ridiculous. Without clarifying what he will be apologizing for won’t put any of this current problems to rest. In fact, it would only create more problem because now we’ll be hearing “Abe has apologized, which must mean that Japan IS guilty of direct involvement in sex slavery!”, just like Kono Statement is now being used.
I’m disappointed to read that Robert, and many others here, assumes that direct coersion of sex slavery by the Japanese military DID occur during the war, without seeing any proof to back it up. The Japanese government is saying that there was no documental evidence indicating the military’s direct involvement; there’s a U.S. report made after the war about the comfort women that indicates most were prostitutes; some of the women have made contradicting testimonies. Why are you all ignoring all that and just swallowing the women’s accusation whole? That’s called bias.
What you should know is that Mike Honda, who is sponsoring the legislation, in an interview with Japanese news show, admitted that his only “proof” is the Kono Statement. How sloppy can you get?
The accused is innocent until proven. What you all are doing is no different than a witch hunt.
JK wrote:
The source is the Annals of King Sejong, part of the official history of the Choseon Dynasty.
As for your other silly claims, I will not respond because I do not want to be arrested by The Marmot’s new sheriff.
“The problem that Japan — and its neighbors — have today stems from the lack of an equivalent of the Nuremberg trials to establish a complete and irrefutable record of the war crimes in Asia. Moreover, the Japanese government burned many of its own records, and others fell into private hands. This historical vacuum provides the opening for statements like Abe’s that there is “no proof” that women were coerced into sexual bondage. Those who oppose the International Criminal Court should be mindful of this pitfall. Meanwhile, Japan owes far more than an apology to the comfort women. Redress is legally and morally required.”
L.A. Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/op.....5385.story
“The emperor Akihito could now go one step further and offer a more forceful apology for all crimes committed in his family’s name. Such a gesture would be far more definitive and meaningful than any statement issued by a Japanese politician. It’s time for both Japan and its neighbors to move on. ”
http://www.latimes.com/news/op.....editorials
I suppose the yellow paper list includes, New York Times, LA Times, etc.
Japan brought this upon itself. 1945. Lot of paper burned. Burn, baby, burn. (Not Bern, baby, Bern.)
Gerry Bevers, I wasn’t interested much in the often quoted Sejong records, which seems to provide a clause for unmarried men and women who were already professionals, but I was interested in your US ROK co-project in the 60s and 70s. Did they see US Army doctors in a patient-doctor setting? Impossible. I know for a fact there would be no proof of that.
Jimong,
The LA Times article contradicts itself, at least, twice.
The article talks about there being no “complete and irrefutable record of war crimes in Asia.” Next, it talks about there being a “historical vacuum” because Japan burned many of its own records, which created a situation in which Abe can say there is “no proof” that women were coerced into sexual bondage.
The first contradiction is that after essentially admitting that there is no “irrefutable record of war crimes” and “no proof” that women were coerced, the LA Times, nevertheless, pronouncing Japan to be “legally and morally required” to pay the comfort women “far more than an apology.”
The second contradiction is when the LA Times article says, “It’s time for both Japan and its neighbors to move on.” If it is time to move on, then why is the newspaper suggesting that Japan and its neighbors continue their apology game?
It’s convenient to say that Japan burned all evidence related to their crimes, without proof that they burned evidence related to their crimes, and say that’s the proof that they’re guilty, isn’t it.
GHQ had all access to all files, had all the power to investigate, and did in fact conduct study regarding the comfort women as well. There also was the Tokyo trial.
Don’t close your eyes to inconvenient (to some) facts. Never judge on one-sided information.
As for the LA Times, why it demands the current Emperor to apologize for what may or may not be his father’s crime is beyond me. I didn’t know that crimes and accusations pass on to children to bear in the U.S.
GHQ didn’t have a clue about many things, because files were burned and mouths were shut tight. My previous link to the 2006 Japanese nurse who spoke out about human medical experiments being buried and residential areas being built over is just one, juse one, just ONE example.
GHQ did not have access to everything.
That nurse was in her 20’s when she served. Now in her 80’s. Which means all the docs, other nurses, workers, and govt and military officials took that secret to their graves. Quite impressive.
in a murder trial, a jury can convict without the murder weapon. They can convict by eyewitnesses alone.
Is it the women’s fault, that the murder weapon, so to speak was hidden or destroyed?
What motive do these eyewitnesses have in voicing one consistent account across borders, languages, and backgrounds?
See, before the US Congress testimony of Ms O’Hearne, I think that’s her name, I used to believe a certain website that claimed no European women will be found that claim they were raped by the Japanese. She not only claimed she was abducted, but also raped by a Japanese military doctor ! Did these docs never hear of Hipp’s oath, or something? I bet you though, that doc somehow found a very good job after the war in postwar Japan, with the tremendous shortage of people who can care for patients. In the US, you might be disbarred for life. Raping a patient. Hmm. I already didn’t trust much of their contents, but they got even less credibility from my head, anyway. I’m sure that doesn’t count much with anyone here.
“The Japanese burned the documents” is a refrain we hear from Korea for everything from Takeshima, to the colonial period, to comfort women. It is not a claim that has any credibility.
Ms O’Hearne’s story actually works against the theory that most comfort women were forced. What you didn’t see in her testimony before the House of Congress was the fact that when the Imperial Japanese Army command found out about what was going on, they shut the brothel down. So while she was a victim, she was not a victim of a government policy of sexual slavery, but rather of private malfeasance and criminality, that was stopped when the IJA command learned of it.
I’m sorry. I take it the Coomaraswamv report didn’t do it for you?
Of course there isn’t—the Japanese government made sure of that in August ‘45. The same reason why Tokyo was able to remain silent about Unit 731’s activities until 2002.
Not this report, by any chance?
Perhaps. Or maybe it’s just an aversion to going to bat for Shinzo Abe by playing credibility games with the victims of wartime sexual slavery.
I don’t support the U.S. resolution. I thought I made that perfectly clear.
And what you are doing is no different from the National Human Rights Commission and “progressive” civic groups that go around denying human rights violations in the North due to lack of documentary evidence and exaggerations/inconsistencies with defector testimony.
Perhaps, although there was a large-scale and pretty successful attempt to do just that. At any rate, it goes both ways—”Lack of documentary evidence” is a refrain we hear from Japan for everything from Nanjing to Unit 731. It is not a claim that has any credibility, some might say.
JK—If you read Korean and do a little research on gisaeng, you’ll see that Mr. Bevers’ claim about the gisaeng is correct—one of the roles gisaeng did play was to comfort soldiers in isolated military zones, especially along the northern frontier with China. That’s not to excuse what Japan did in the 30s, but historical facts are facts.
[DELETED. Reason: Personal Attack]
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03.....ref=slogindon’t know if you’ve seen this, robert.
i’d like to see the bevers/shakuhachi/ampotan triad tell those poor elderly ladies that they’re just liars looking to cash in.
If anyone would like to call them lying whores to their face, some of the survivors can be found here:
http://www.nanum.org/eng/index.html
As for Coomaraswamv report, a historian (Hata) estimated that it was not a fair report;It didn’t take the US report made in 1944 into her account but did used the controversial book by G. Hicks, and it didn’t received high appraisal from UN.
As for the testimony, it is not cross examined nor
is it confirmed by other witness.
In the the collection of the testimonies published in 1996, an Korean professor says,
“This book was begun in March 1992, when members of the society began speaking to about 40 former comfort women who had given their addresses and had indicated a willingness to be contacted. In the process of recording testimonies, the number of women we decided to include here was narrowed down to 19. We eliminated those who were reluctant to talk about the details of their experiences, those whose stories contained inconsistencies and those who contradicted themselves. The surviving comfort women are now quite old, and have lived through so much adversity that many can faintly remember the sufferings they endured. To help them remember their experiences more clearly, all the researchers compared the details of the accounts with what we know about the military history of Japan through documents . In an attempt to obtain accurate testimony, researchers had to interview each survivor more than ten times.They were forced restrain their emotion and to maintain objective attitude while talking about heart-breaking experiences.”
Looking at one of the testimonies Coomaraswamv cited, one testimony reads:
“When I was 17 years old, in 1936, the head of our village came to our house and promised me to help me find a job in a factory. Because my family was so poor, I gladly accepted this offer of a well-paid job. ”
I wonder why Korean government didn’t search for the Korean head of her village or someone related to him to confirm her testimony.
Probably it couldn’t be done. In the collection of stories by Korean-Americans who lived under Japanese rule, (Under the black umbrella)
the author wrote:
“Most of the women who talked with us said they never heard of “comfort women” when they were young.”
She cites two cases that mentions comfort women.
The first case is that an aunt was mobilized to teshintai, the woman service Brigade, but it was not the comfort station.
The second case is the story in which a Korean woman recollects village women being mobilized to Teishintai, The Woman Service Brigade, but she concluded for some reason that it was comfort station, but she didn’t give reasons how she found it out. The only reason she give why it must have been the comfort station was that her Korean husband drafted into Japanese army saw Korean women serving soldiers at the comfort station, though she emphasized that her husband didn’t do it, thinking of her.
Did Japanese police and military officers really kidnapped them?
After the Japan’s defeat, during the occupation by the allies, Japan set up Recreation and Amusement Association (RRA) for GIs in Japan, similar to comfort station .(BTW GHQ asked to help apportion the prostitutes into separate districts to be reserved for use by U.S.
Japanese government was involved for sure, she had pimps recruit the woman just as she did in Asia . She licensed brothels just as she did it in Asian. Some women were deceived, other were so poor and had no relatives to help them. still others were encouraged to work for Japan’s “honor” , but I have never heard that Japanese police or GIs kidnapped women.
I think it is reasonable to suppose that there was no systematic kidnapping by Japanese military/police as some people imagine.
There might have been individual cases where military officer was involved if Ms O’Hearne’story is correct, but note that, as Matt said, the brothel in n Semarang was closed by Japanese military because there was a report to the military
that the women were forced.
Suppose I “testify” I was raped by Korean men 60 years ago, I faintly remember, but with the help of the detective I “remember” I was taken away by Korean soldiers in Korea , but still it turned out my memory was inconsistent. And suppose further there is no witness and that other documents show Korean soldiers were trying to regulate the thugs at the time.
Do you still believe me?
“If anyone would like to call them lying whores to their face, some of the survivors can be found here:
http://www.nanum.org/eng/index.html”
1991년, 정부는 전국 읍면동에 공문을 보내 “위안부에 대해서는 비밀을 보장해 줄테니 창피해 하지 말고, 신고하라”는 취지의 공문을 보냈고, 이에 따라 신고자는 총 200명 정도였던 것으로 알려져 있다. 이들 중 지금 남아 있는 사람들은 125명 정도이며, 이 125명 중 진짜 “일본군위안부”라고 자기들끼리 확인한 노인들은 33명이다. 이 모임은 약칭 “무궁화회 할머니회”로 불린다. 이 할머니 대표가 바로 일본 대법원에서 진짜로 확인된 ´심미자´(82세) 할머니이며, 2005.4.13. 오전과 오후에 걸쳐, 필자가 여러 시간에 걸쳐 인터뷰를 했다.
이 곳은 관광하러 한국에 온 일본인들의 관광 코스로 되어 있고, 국내외로부터 성금이 답지된다고 한다. 먼저 나눔의 집을 지어달라 호소했던 할머니들은 운영자측에 대해 많은 불만이 있어 나갔고, 현재 홈페이지에는 10명의 위안부 얼굴들이 나타나 있지만 이들 중 약 5명 정도는 중국에서 온 할머니들이라 한다. 이 중국 할머니들 중 몇 명씩이 하루에 3만원을 받고 수요일 일본대사관 앞 집회에 나간다고 할머니는 말한다.
인터뷰에서 심 할머니가 거론한 두가지 큰 불만사항은 두가지.
1) 위안부봉사단체인 두 기관들은 위안부를 이용하여 국내외로부터 모금도 하고, 자신들의 명예를 올리기 위해 일하며, 모금한 돈을 나누어 주지도 않는다.
2) 몇 명 안 되는 할머니들을 앵벌이로 삼아 국제 망신을 시키고 다닌다. 우리는 돈을 바라지 않는다. 우리가 바라는 것은 명예다. 우리를 이용하여 국제 모금을 하는 것은 우리를 두 번 모욕 주는 행위다.
또 우리 정부와 시민단체 등이 툭하면 위안부 할머니들을 내세워 일본을 비판하고 일본에게 배상할 것을 요구하고 있으나 정작 정부와 시민단체 등이 위안부할머니에게 해준 일이 별로 없다고 지적하고 오히려 일본인들이 위안부 할머니들의 건강과 소송문제, 또 장례식 등까지 세세한 부분에 대해 지속적인 관심과 보살핌을 펴왔음을 역설적으로 전했다.
.
이와 관련 2004년 위안부 할머니중 한명인 박봉순할머니가 사망했을 때 장례식장에 한국인은 거의 없고 일본인들이 몇명 모여서 장례를 치뤘는데 화장비도 일본인들이 내고 유골을 운반할 때도 무궁화회 회장인 심미자 할머니가 먼길을 걸으면서 홀로 운반해야 했다는 가슴 아픈 일화를 소개했다. 봉사단체 관계자는 보이지 않았다면서 위안부봉사단체의 허구성을 통열히 비판했다.
언론이나 TV에 나오는 할머니중 일부는 일본에서는 진짜가 아니라고 본다면서 이로 인해 한국이 불신을 받고 국제적인 망신을 당할 우려가 있음도 지적했다.
(지만원)
ponta—Damn, I guess you’re right. Must be a conspiracy by old, senile, lying whores in several different countries to embarrass Japan.
PS: Do you even know who Ji Man-won is?
Robert Koehler
Thanks
“ponta—Damn, I guess you’re right. Must be a conspiracy by old, senile, lying whores in several different countries to embarrass Japan.
PS: Do you even know who Ji Man-won is?”
I am not sure if it was conspiracy or not.
I have never said old women were lying. Rather I think the memory was constructed with the interviewers who had preconception about what the Japanese system of recruiting must have been. And it was an example of Korean tide among Korean politicians and most of Korean professors that has been present until today.
An even researcher who sides with Korean “sex slave” says:
”
Since many women gave testimony orally, partly because most of them were illiterate, most testimonies were recorded and edited by
researchers or journalists concerning stories provided by researchers, it is hard to differentiate what was really said by the women themselves and what was added or omitted by the researchers in the course of their own researches.
It seems likely that when researchers recount the lives of ex-“Comfort Women”, in summarising their testimonies, they unintentionally modify or sometimes change the testimonies in order to suit their own perspectives and need”
ttp://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/genderInstitute/pdf/listeningToVoices.pdf
Japanese documents and the US document confirm that there were contracts between a girl/parents and pimps; they were economically and socially
forcedm and many might have been deceived. And even some of testimonies confirms that they were sold.
And as you know, after independence from Japan, Korean women were still deceived and sometimes kidnapped by Korean pimps and were made prostitutes and some of women were economically forced to be prostitutes. But I suppose there was no case Korean
government official systematically kidnapped them. Sure there might be such a case, but in that case he is committing a crime against Korean government policy and law.
And under the occupation in Japan, there was a similar system but no case where Japanese police kidnapped women.
Why do we have to suppose Japanese military systematically kidnapped Korean women only in the case under Japanese rule, though many of testimonies are inconsistent, not cofirmed, and other documents point to the other direction?
That is my point.
Calling them old senile lying whores is really insulting. I don’t claim that, and I have never said it;you said it albeit sarcastically..
but I would say it is highly probable and reasonable that the testimonies were constructed in accordance with hindsight and Korean anti-Japan
tide but they were not based on the facts.
And note I have never said there was no rape cases by Japanese military officers; there were, but that
is another story.
As for Ji Man-woris, I hear some Korean people describe him as a rightist. Do you think he is telling the false interview? Is that what you are insinuating? If so , I wonder what his point of telling the false interview?
But really, isn’t that what you are calling them. I mean, this pretty much says it all, no?:
I guess that would make them old, senile, lying, anti-Japanese whores.
Boy, Nozaki Yoshiko wasn’t joking:
Robert Koehler
thanks
“But really, isn’t that what you are calling them. I mean, this pretty much says it all, no?:”
Not at all.
Note that Maki Kimura I cited who questioned the nature of testimonies is not neo-nationalist or whatsoever at all.
All Robert and Nozaki is saying, in my understanding, is that just because there are inconsistencies, it does not follow that all that was said is false. That itself is true statement.
But note, conttrary to what Nozaki said, it was not impossible to verify comfort women’s testimonies. In case of Korea it was relatively easy, just search for the Korean head of village or the pimps, or some other people who could confirmed the testimonies.
And in case of Seju islands, a Korean historian confirmed that there were no such case where women were abducted by Japanese military. We know it because Yoshida, ex-Japanese military officer, claimed he abducted women in Seju island, and a historian visited the island to confirmed the fact. The result was to the contrary. The village people testified if there were such a big incident in a small village like this, somebody must have witnessed it, but there is no such fact. A Korean local historian’s conclusion:it is a lie motivated by evil Japanese commercialism.(it is published in the local newspaper in Korea, Seju newspaper/aug 14 h1984) and either side of historians ceased to trusted him:Yoshida was found be a liar.(By the way it is yoshida’s statement that inflamed this issue.)
What I have argued is, coupled with objective evidences and the way testimonies were collected, it is most likely that they were constructed in accordance with hindsight and hence are unreliable. In particular the part ex-comfort women claimed they were taken away by Japanese military officers/police is least likely to be based on the fact..
I am afraid it is Robert and Nozaki who, by prohibiting questioning the authenticity of testimony, are making another sacred cow out of the issue of comfort women just as Dokdo issue is sometimes claimed to be such in Korea.
“I was raped by Korean men 60 years ago, at the time Korea started. It was at school near X. I was taken away by Korean police.”
“There was no school at X and and korean war didn’t start 60 years ago. There was a record that because the thugs were rampant, Korean police regulated them. I think at least you are mistaken about your memory that Korean police took you away.”
“you are neo-nationalists, and what you are saying amonnts to calling me old senile lying whores”
Calling the opponenent neo-nationalists, or attributing misleadingly the statement ex-comfort women are old senile lying whores to the opponenent may be easiest way to attack him when there is no substance to refute him, but I am afraid, it is immature way and not fair.
Boy, lankov wasn’t joking..
“In Korea you do not criticize nationalist assumptions, at least, you do not do it too actively.”
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/.....omment-608
I don’t know what leaves me more with bad taste in my mouth, the actual Abe comments, or all the pro-military Japanese history revisionists defending/excusing/denying everything (which seems to be the increasing pattern as memories of that era fades away). Probably the latter.
There are numerous way to construct testimonies without lying.
“I was taken away by pimps”
“What did he look like?”
“I don’t remember well”
“Weren’t they wearing soldier like clothes?”
“Maybe”
“According to our studies, there are a lot of cases there Japanese kenpei took Korean women away, they wore black clothes. Wasn’t he wearing a black clothes?”
“I guess so”
Let’s write it down, you are taken away by what looked like Japanese kenpei, right?”
“Right”
She was not lying but it was constructed.
(Sorry about grammatical mistakes in the above comment, but I hope the reader can guess what I was getting at.)
“I don’t know what leaves me more with bad taste in my mouth, the actual Abe comments, or all the pro-military Japanese history revisionists defending/excusing/denying everything (which seems to be the increasing pattern as memories of that era fades away). Probably the latter.”
Again, I am afraid it is too common among Korean blog shphere to just label Japan denying then pro-militalist history; Abe and mojority Japanese people are against then militalism and militarism in general.
I am afraid it is a clumsy way to argue.
I am afraid I have to agree with Ponta a bit, though I condemn the thrust of what nationalists here in Japan are trying to do — construct a “beautiful Japan” by covering up important truths and distracting from key issues. Their methods are provocative. But inflammatory namecalling and the like doesn’t help settle the debate, though the emotions behind them are in my opinion justified. The Japanese revisionists make points that need to be answered one by one, even if they are absurd or wrangling about the meaning of words like “coercion.”. Many revisionist points are valid; this too must be recognized, though a lot of it is a smokescreen obfuscating the real issue (i.e., that women were raped by Japanese soldiers). Testimonies are evidence. When they can be corroborated they are stronger evidence. If there are contradictions, it weakens it. But even if many cannot be corroborated, that does not make them absolutely worthless. We cannot just assume that leading questions were used either, Ponta. Unless you have a transcript as evidence for that, you are just vainly speculating. But sure it could happen. But in every case? And it could also happen that documents were destroyed intentionally in a cover up. Yet I have no “document” to prove that (ironic?). Humans are indeed often liars — as well as rapists — and prostitutes. In sum, if history is important, then historical methods are important.