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	<title>Comments on: Tweaking Korean students</title>
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	<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/</link>
	<description>Korea... in Blog Format</description>
	<pubDate>Mon,  1 Dec 2008 23:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: usinkorea</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73693</link>
		<dc:creator>usinkorea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73693</guid>
		<description>I don't bring up issues that I have seen quickly break down into two opposing camps where the chance anyone will budge from their position is zero and 1 or 2 leaders among them will heatedly try to run over the thoughts of the 1 or 2 leaders in the other camp.

I bring in topics to get the students to practice and learn critical thinking skills - not define a world view.  My focus, though they might not know it, is on the process of thinking and debating, not the topic at hand, and the hot button issues just are not that good at getting the students to open up to the critical thinking process.

I've been in too many classes too many times looking at my watch wondering if I would make it out before pulling my hair out, because the teacher got a "good discussion" going from his or her point of view, because so many students were "discussing" it "actively" ----- but I know zero "discussion" was taking place.

Now, I think in college this is different.  Sometimes it isn't.  I had a girl cuss me out in class once for saying that a (potential) father could feel the pain of losing a child if it is aborted (she was dominating the "discussion" in the whole class of 150 students and harping on the pain and suffering an unwanted child would bring)...

but that was a freshman course (first semester), and in general, I think by college, you can have some productive, analytical discussions on some of the issues I won't bring into a high school class, but I still won't get into them with teens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t bring up issues that I have seen quickly break down into two opposing camps where the chance anyone will budge from their position is zero and 1 or 2 leaders among them will heatedly try to run over the thoughts of the 1 or 2 leaders in the other camp.</p>
<p>I bring in topics to get the students to practice and learn critical thinking skills - not define a world view.  My focus, though they might not know it, is on the process of thinking and debating, not the topic at hand, and the hot button issues just are not that good at getting the students to open up to the critical thinking process.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been in too many classes too many times looking at my watch wondering if I would make it out before pulling my hair out, because the teacher got a &#8220;good discussion&#8221; going from his or her point of view, because so many students were &#8220;discussing&#8221; it &#8220;actively&#8221; &#8212;&#8211; but I know zero &#8220;discussion&#8221; was taking place.</p>
<p>Now, I think in college this is different.  Sometimes it isn&#8217;t.  I had a girl cuss me out in class once for saying that a (potential) father could feel the pain of losing a child if it is aborted (she was dominating the &#8220;discussion&#8221; in the whole class of 150 students and harping on the pain and suffering an unwanted child would bring)&#8230;</p>
<p>but that was a freshman course (first semester), and in general, I think by college, you can have some productive, analytical discussions on some of the issues I won&#8217;t bring into a high school class, but I still won&#8217;t get into them with teens.</p>
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		<title>By: The Metropolitician</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73581</link>
		<dc:creator>The Metropolitician</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Mar 2007 02:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73581</guid>
		<description>Have to disagree with the "no controversial issues" tack. 

Even as certain issues may seem "irrelevant" to the students' lives (that the issue of gay marriage is because they don't engage in it is irrelevant is just about as short-sighted as saying that interracial marriage was "irrelevant" as an issue just because most people didn't engage in it before the 1960's), that doesn't mean they aren't irrelevant to the concerns of a society – which is why the issues are "hot button."

It depends on approach, as well as on tone, which again, speaks to academic training and experience in that field. Just as I don't teach real ESL courses (I lack the training), I think that too many people step into hot water and make for bad discussions and uncomfortable students because they are 1) actually not too knowledgable about the content being discussed in a structured way, and 2) often fall prey to the temptations of unexamined personal opinion that they should be busy separating their students intellects from.

I am an opinionated dude. I rant and rave on my blog. One of the reasons I do that is because I don't allow myself to demagogue in the classroom and sometimes feel like my head is going to explode from the pressure of holding my tongue back. 

But I also won't lie and say I don't have a clear sense of what is right or wrong, and that my students don't pick up on it. Yet, I always make it clear that the students are free to disagree – for reals, not just the lip service many profs give before leaping down their students throat – but there has to be a reasoned explanation for it. 

That's why I think teaching hot button topics are hard – they're hard to do without a lot of experience, training, and a structured approach. 

Many of my students remarked at Waedae how their foreign professors always say to feel free to express their opinion, but then often jump on their students for saying the "wrong" thing. It's something that I think foreigners tend to do here (I include myself in this temptation), especially since we're in a position of power vis a vis the academic environment of the classroom. 

So I think it's our duty to remember to allow students to really take new intellectual steps in the classroom, albeit with structured guidance; but it's also our responsibility to challenge them, on every level.

That's a hard thing to do when we're talking about abortion, gay marriage, or the "clitorindectomy" (sic) – it's "clitoridectomy." 

Yet the latter procedure absolutely has relevance if you're talking about Charles Taylor's discussion of "cultural relativism," then this is the #1 issue brought up, espeically since it's so extreme and so clearly demonstrates the slippery definition of "culture" and "human rights" after doing the appropriate reading and preparation. But I agree, if you're just looking for grist for a simple discussion for conversation class, such topics are a bit much.

And other issues don't work for other reasons.

Affirmative action discussions usually lack the extensive legal and historical background required to have an intelligent discussion on an academic level, as opposed to the popular "it's not fair" or "it's reparations" battle, so it just goes in circles, the blind fighting the blind. Messy.

Or abortion, which really just revolves around the question of when life begins, which leads to the question of whether you think abortion is "murder" or not. If you hone in on it, you might have a debate – "when does life begin?" – but if you just ask about "Is abortion wrong?" well...you've set yourself up either for gladitorial battle or complete, awkward silence. 

It takes a subtle hand, is what I'm saying. But I also think it's our duty as teachers to push them, not give them pap. Navigating all this makes our jobs hard. 

And ain't that where the fun is?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have to disagree with the &#8220;no controversial issues&#8221; tack. </p>
<p>Even as certain issues may seem &#8220;irrelevant&#8221; to the students&#8217; lives (that the issue of gay marriage is because they don&#8217;t engage in it is irrelevant is just about as short-sighted as saying that interracial marriage was &#8220;irrelevant&#8221; as an issue just because most people didn&#8217;t engage in it before the 1960&#8217;s), that doesn&#8217;t mean they aren&#8217;t irrelevant to the concerns of a society – which is why the issues are &#8220;hot button.&#8221;</p>
<p>It depends on approach, as well as on tone, which again, speaks to academic training and experience in that field. Just as I don&#8217;t teach real ESL courses (I lack the training), I think that too many people step into hot water and make for bad discussions and uncomfortable students because they are 1) actually not too knowledgable about the content being discussed in a structured way, and 2) often fall prey to the temptations of unexamined personal opinion that they should be busy separating their students intellects from.</p>
<p>I am an opinionated dude. I rant and rave on my blog. One of the reasons I do that is because I don&#8217;t allow myself to demagogue in the classroom and sometimes feel like my head is going to explode from the pressure of holding my tongue back. </p>
<p>But I also won&#8217;t lie and say I don&#8217;t have a clear sense of what is right or wrong, and that my students don&#8217;t pick up on it. Yet, I always make it clear that the students are free to disagree – for reals, not just the lip service many profs give before leaping down their students throat – but there has to be a reasoned explanation for it. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s why I think teaching hot button topics are hard – they&#8217;re hard to do without a lot of experience, training, and a structured approach. </p>
<p>Many of my students remarked at Waedae how their foreign professors always say to feel free to express their opinion, but then often jump on their students for saying the &#8220;wrong&#8221; thing. It&#8217;s something that I think foreigners tend to do here (I include myself in this temptation), especially since we&#8217;re in a position of power vis a vis the academic environment of the classroom. </p>
<p>So I think it&#8217;s our duty to remember to allow students to really take new intellectual steps in the classroom, albeit with structured guidance; but it&#8217;s also our responsibility to challenge them, on every level.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a hard thing to do when we&#8217;re talking about abortion, gay marriage, or the &#8220;clitorindectomy&#8221; (sic) – it&#8217;s &#8220;clitoridectomy.&#8221; </p>
<p>Yet the latter procedure absolutely has relevance if you&#8217;re talking about Charles Taylor&#8217;s discussion of &#8220;cultural relativism,&#8221; then this is the #1 issue brought up, espeically since it&#8217;s so extreme and so clearly demonstrates the slippery definition of &#8220;culture&#8221; and &#8220;human rights&#8221; after doing the appropriate reading and preparation. But I agree, if you&#8217;re just looking for grist for a simple discussion for conversation class, such topics are a bit much.</p>
<p>And other issues don&#8217;t work for other reasons.</p>
<p>Affirmative action discussions usually lack the extensive legal and historical background required to have an intelligent discussion on an academic level, as opposed to the popular &#8220;it&#8217;s not fair&#8221; or &#8220;it&#8217;s reparations&#8221; battle, so it just goes in circles, the blind fighting the blind. Messy.</p>
<p>Or abortion, which really just revolves around the question of when life begins, which leads to the question of whether you think abortion is &#8220;murder&#8221; or not. If you hone in on it, you might have a debate – &#8220;when does life begin?&#8221; – but if you just ask about &#8220;Is abortion wrong?&#8221; well&#8230;you&#8217;ve set yourself up either for gladitorial battle or complete, awkward silence. </p>
<p>It takes a subtle hand, is what I&#8217;m saying. But I also think it&#8217;s our duty as teachers to push them, not give them pap. Navigating all this makes our jobs hard. </p>
<p>And ain&#8217;t that where the fun is?</p>
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		<title>By: The Marmot&#8217;s Hole &#187; Comment &#38; Moderation Policy Update #1</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73477</link>
		<dc:creator>The Marmot&#8217;s Hole &#187; Comment &#38; Moderation Policy Update #1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73477</guid>
		<description>[...] an example, have a look at comment by &#8220;captbbq.&#8221; There is nothing inherently wrong with that comment. It uses no [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] an example, have a look at comment by &#8220;captbbq.&#8221; There is nothing inherently wrong with that comment. It uses no [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Zen Master</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73454</link>
		<dc:creator>Zen Master</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 06:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73454</guid>
		<description>I scheduled a debate in a debate class and set the resolution as "Dokdo Belongs to Japan." When my supervisor found out, the shit hit the fan. I was strongly asked to change the resolution of debate. Reasons given included, "But how can you expect any of your students to debate the 'pro' side?" and "Your lack of understanding of Korea is surprising and disappointing." The end result? I wrote a letter to my students apologizing for forcing them to think critically in a debate class. Then I asked them to choose whatever topic they wanted to debate. Some still chose to debate Dokdo since that was the topic most of them had prepared. The project was successful in the end but stressful as hell for me (and my supervisor).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I scheduled a debate in a debate class and set the resolution as &#8220;Dokdo Belongs to Japan.&#8221; When my supervisor found out, the shit hit the fan. I was strongly asked to change the resolution of debate. Reasons given included, &#8220;But how can you expect any of your students to debate the &#8216;pro&#8217; side?&#8221; and &#8220;Your lack of understanding of Korea is surprising and disappointing.&#8221; The end result? I wrote a letter to my students apologizing for forcing them to think critically in a debate class. Then I asked them to choose whatever topic they wanted to debate. Some still chose to debate Dokdo since that was the topic most of them had prepared. The project was successful in the end but stressful as hell for me (and my supervisor).</p>
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		<title>By: snow</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73440</link>
		<dc:creator>snow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 03:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73440</guid>
		<description>"The teachers liked these classes because it “got students involved” and some of the material in the education program I am currently in for the MA stressing using the issues to “engage” the students, but I hated it so much as a student, I’m not going to do it as a teacher."

I agree absolutely, usinkorea. If a teacher likes doing this kind of thing, fine, but I hate the idea of bringing some topic that is largely irrelevant to the lives of my students (gay marriage) or that they have no knowledge or understanding of (clitorindectomy-I kid you not, this was taught in an MA program as a good subject to give to ESL students). 

Some of these subjects seem little more than a way for a teacher to present their biases in class. I remember a teacher who 'discussed' gender equality in class and some students came away hurt and distressed that their non-politically correct choices in life were made to sound like bad or wrong choices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The teachers liked these classes because it “got students involved” and some of the material in the education program I am currently in for the MA stressing using the issues to “engage” the students, but I hated it so much as a student, I’m not going to do it as a teacher.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree absolutely, usinkorea. If a teacher likes doing this kind of thing, fine, but I hate the idea of bringing some topic that is largely irrelevant to the lives of my students (gay marriage) or that they have no knowledge or understanding of (clitorindectomy-I kid you not, this was taught in an MA program as a good subject to give to ESL students). </p>
<p>Some of these subjects seem little more than a way for a teacher to present their biases in class. I remember a teacher who &#8216;discussed&#8217; gender equality in class and some students came away hurt and distressed that their non-politically correct choices in life were made to sound like bad or wrong choices.</p>
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		<title>By: seouldout</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73421</link>
		<dc:creator>seouldout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2007 00:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73421</guid>
		<description>I understand the point of the assignment, and granted you'll get stronger emotional response on Dokdo is Korea's rather than Texas is Mexico's, but isn't the course on American government?  Couldn't you shift those topics to be a bit more US centric?  That bamboo grove hoohaa may be an issue that strikes your students as interesting since it involves Korean history and they'll research the role of government in education, interest groups, yada yada in the US.  The visa issue is another topic, and especially relevant to the students since they'll need one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand the point of the assignment, and granted you&#8217;ll get stronger emotional response on Dokdo is Korea&#8217;s rather than Texas is Mexico&#8217;s, but isn&#8217;t the course on American government?  Couldn&#8217;t you shift those topics to be a bit more US centric?  That bamboo grove hoohaa may be an issue that strikes your students as interesting since it involves Korean history and they&#8217;ll research the role of government in education, interest groups, yada yada in the US.  The visa issue is another topic, and especially relevant to the students since they&#8217;ll need one.</p>
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		<title>By: usinkorea</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73409</link>
		<dc:creator>usinkorea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73409</guid>
		<description>I like to use the traditional method of teaching rhetoric - have a topic that the students prepare information for, then divide them up into A and -A positions on the issue and debate (or have them write a paper), then in the next stage, force them to flipflop and argue the opposite side - and grade them on what they produce at this final stage.

I avoid hot button issues - however - like the plague.  No abortion, same-sex marriage, death penalty type stuff in my classroom.  I felt strongly over the years I had wasted too many hours of my life in a classroom - where learning was supposed to take place - with teachers using hot button issues that closed minds immediately and were always a waste of effort.  The teachers liked these classes because it "got students involved" and some of the material in the education program I am currently in for the MA stressing using the issues to "engage" the students, but I hated it so much as a student, I'm not going to do it as a teacher.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like to use the traditional method of teaching rhetoric - have a topic that the students prepare information for, then divide them up into A and -A positions on the issue and debate (or have them write a paper), then in the next stage, force them to flipflop and argue the opposite side - and grade them on what they produce at this final stage.</p>
<p>I avoid hot button issues - however - like the plague.  No abortion, same-sex marriage, death penalty type stuff in my classroom.  I felt strongly over the years I had wasted too many hours of my life in a classroom - where learning was supposed to take place - with teachers using hot button issues that closed minds immediately and were always a waste of effort.  The teachers liked these classes because it &#8220;got students involved&#8221; and some of the material in the education program I am currently in for the MA stressing using the issues to &#8220;engage&#8221; the students, but I hated it so much as a student, I&#8217;m not going to do it as a teacher.</p>
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		<title>By: Readalot</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73403</link>
		<dc:creator>Readalot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 16:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73403</guid>
		<description>Not sure what the issue is for question #2. You are asking a question not expressing an opinion. The students will express themselves accordingly (not hard to guess what they'll say) however as an educator isn't it your job to initiate discussion? It's only if you express your opinion in a public venue, that you could be held to task for it (or at least that's how it should be). 

As for question 3, most Korean women I know have very strong views. And usually somewhat different from the men, so you should get some interesting debates. Many of the Korean women I've spoken to, feel that military service is a neccessary evil that all Korean men need to experience "to become a man". Of course this sentiment changes if its a brother or boy friend. But then again most of the people I talk to have been out of Country for a long time so perhaps people there have different views. I certainly agree that Korean women should also have to do military service or something very similar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure what the issue is for question #2. You are asking a question not expressing an opinion. The students will express themselves accordingly (not hard to guess what they&#8217;ll say) however as an educator isn&#8217;t it your job to initiate discussion? It&#8217;s only if you express your opinion in a public venue, that you could be held to task for it (or at least that&#8217;s how it should be). </p>
<p>As for question 3, most Korean women I know have very strong views. And usually somewhat different from the men, so you should get some interesting debates. Many of the Korean women I&#8217;ve spoken to, feel that military service is a neccessary evil that all Korean men need to experience &#8220;to become a man&#8221;. Of course this sentiment changes if its a brother or boy friend. But then again most of the people I talk to have been out of Country for a long time so perhaps people there have different views. I certainly agree that Korean women should also have to do military service or something very similar.</p>
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		<title>By: R. Elgin</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73399</link>
		<dc:creator>R. Elgin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73399</guid>
		<description>Umm, I would not touch the Dokdo issue at all because of the apparent lack of willingness of anyone to discuss it in a rational manner.  It is really proverbial troll bait since it brings out the troll every time it is mentioned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Umm, I would not touch the Dokdo issue at all because of the apparent lack of willingness of anyone to discuss it in a rational manner.  It is really proverbial troll bait since it brings out the troll every time it is mentioned.</p>
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		<title>By: captbbq</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73397</link>
		<dc:creator>captbbq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/03/06/tweaking-korean-students/#comment-73397</guid>
		<description>[DELETED. Reason: Off Topic]

&lt;strike&gt;Oranckay,

not that you need my advice, but for the two cents it may be worth I did once start and moderate a pretty successfull science board a number of years ago for a total of maybe three years. I had similar difficulties keeping the UFO conspiracy theorists off and the rocket scientists on. Devising a number of rules sets (read mini-beaurocracy) to govern was one thing, actually applying them consistently was something else entirely.

1. No matter what: Be robotically consitent in enforcement
    a) don't hesitate to be an asshole
2. Don't give much consideration to appeals. it breaks rule #1, and shows you too afraid to follow "a"
3. it helps to remember: Mandate? You don't need no stinkin mandate (from the commenters...) this ain't no democracy

of course theres always more than one way to skin a cat . . . and you'd be more than justified to delete my comment, as it is off topic, but you don't need me to say that ;-)

Happy Hunting&lt;/strike&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[DELETED. Reason: Off Topic]</p>
<p><strike>Oranckay,</p>
<p>not that you need my advice, but for the two cents it may be worth I did once start and moderate a pretty successfull science board a number of years ago for a total of maybe three years. I had similar difficulties keeping the UFO conspiracy theorists off and the rocket scientists on. Devising a number of rules sets (read mini-beaurocracy) to govern was one thing, actually applying them consistently was something else entirely.</p>
<p>1. No matter what: Be robotically consitent in enforcement<br />
    a) don&#8217;t hesitate to be an asshole<br />
2. Don&#8217;t give much consideration to appeals. it breaks rule #1, and shows you too afraid to follow &#8220;a&#8221;<br />
3. it helps to remember: Mandate? You don&#8217;t need no stinkin mandate (from the commenters&#8230;) this ain&#8217;t no democracy</p>
<p>of course theres always more than one way to skin a cat . . . and you&#8217;d be more than justified to delete my comment, as it is off topic, but you don&#8217;t need me to say that <img src='http://www.rjkoehler.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Happy Hunting</strike></p>
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