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	<title>Comments on: K-Educ Trends: teaching King Dan-gun as real, in English</title>
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	<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/</link>
	<description>Korea... in Blog Format</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 04:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: sanshinseon</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72311</link>
		<dc:creator>sanshinseon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72311</guid>
		<description>The whole "5000 year history" thing started with Park Chung-hee's administration in the early 1970s, i seem to remember -- he sent out the first international exhibition of Korean artifacts and culture under the title "5000 Years of Korean History".  I think that he modeled it after Japanese fascist theories that Japan has 5000 years of continuous cultural history, longer than China (and that all the cultural &#38; artifact creations we think of as 'Chinese', even Confucianism, were really invented in Japan and spread westward). 

It slowly became official policy in the various ministries, used as a standard line in tourism and cultural promotion, and more.  It's become a standard thing taught to schoolchildren without critique; everyone seems to know/believe it.

The excuse for it is that Third Day of the 10th Moon in 2333 BCE date -- sometimes held to be when Dan-gun's father descended from Heaven, sometimes to be when he was born, and sometimes to be his establishment of Gojoseon Kingdom.  This was apparently first calculated by cultural nationalists in the early 20th century, and was officially adopted by the Rhee government in 1948; during the 1950s they established the Gaecheon-jeol Holiday on October 3rd for it.  When East Asians talk about historical periods or other large numbers like that, they typically round upwards -- whereas we Americans would say 4300+ is "more than 4000" or "just over 4000" they just call it "5000".

I think that the beginning of "History" is when written records of past or contemporary events appear, at least those that are extant in some form today so we can be sure of their existence and date.  Anything before that is "pre-historic" by definition; if this standard is not held than the word 'history' has no clear meaning -- should we say that the USA has 20,000 years of history?  So by this standard what is usually grouped together as "Korea" has roughly 2000 years of history.  It seems like all Korean nationalists would strongly disagree, and most of the population is on their side.

When I worked for the Ministry of Culture &#38; Tourism for five years i made several attempts to change their minds on using the 5000 thing, with memos and personal pitches to high officials, saying that it just looks ridiculous to outsiders; my friend E.C. working for KNTO did the same.  We got nowhere -- it's quite deeply entrenched by now and nobody in Korean government, education or politics would dare risk vehement public criticism by trying to change it...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole &#8220;5000 year history&#8221; thing started with Park Chung-hee&#8217;s administration in the early 1970s, i seem to remember &#8212; he sent out the first international exhibition of Korean artifacts and culture under the title &#8220;5000 Years of Korean History&#8221;.  I think that he modeled it after Japanese fascist theories that Japan has 5000 years of continuous cultural history, longer than China (and that all the cultural &amp; artifact creations we think of as &#8216;Chinese&#8217;, even Confucianism, were really invented in Japan and spread westward). </p>
<p>It slowly became official policy in the various ministries, used as a standard line in tourism and cultural promotion, and more.  It&#8217;s become a standard thing taught to schoolchildren without critique; everyone seems to know/believe it.</p>
<p>The excuse for it is that Third Day of the 10th Moon in 2333 BCE date &#8212; sometimes held to be when Dan-gun&#8217;s father descended from Heaven, sometimes to be when he was born, and sometimes to be his establishment of Gojoseon Kingdom.  This was apparently first calculated by cultural nationalists in the early 20th century, and was officially adopted by the Rhee government in 1948; during the 1950s they established the Gaecheon-jeol Holiday on October 3rd for it.  When East Asians talk about historical periods or other large numbers like that, they typically round upwards &#8212; whereas we Americans would say 4300+ is &#8220;more than 4000&#8243; or &#8220;just over 4000&#8243; they just call it &#8220;5000&#8243;.</p>
<p>I think that the beginning of &#8220;History&#8221; is when written records of past or contemporary events appear, at least those that are extant in some form today so we can be sure of their existence and date.  Anything before that is &#8220;pre-historic&#8221; by definition; if this standard is not held than the word &#8216;history&#8217; has no clear meaning &#8212; should we say that the USA has 20,000 years of history?  So by this standard what is usually grouped together as &#8220;Korea&#8221; has roughly 2000 years of history.  It seems like all Korean nationalists would strongly disagree, and most of the population is on their side.</p>
<p>When I worked for the Ministry of Culture &amp; Tourism for five years i made several attempts to change their minds on using the 5000 thing, with memos and personal pitches to high officials, saying that it just looks ridiculous to outsiders; my friend E.C. working for KNTO did the same.  We got nowhere &#8212; it&#8217;s quite deeply entrenched by now and nobody in Korean government, education or politics would dare risk vehement public criticism by trying to change it&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Uri Onara</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72292</link>
		<dc:creator>Uri Onara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Feb 2007 07:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72292</guid>
		<description>I never got the whole "5000 year history" thing. It is a stock phrase used by the Chinese about themselves and the Koreans seem to have appropriated it. But at least the Chinese have turtle shell and oracle scribblings going back to 1200 BC. (If history is determined by written documents, that would only be 3200 years). What is the oldest historic writing on Korea? Don't the Chinese have something older than this Tangun myth?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never got the whole &#8220;5000 year history&#8221; thing. It is a stock phrase used by the Chinese about themselves and the Koreans seem to have appropriated it. But at least the Chinese have turtle shell and oracle scribblings going back to 1200 BC. (If history is determined by written documents, that would only be 3200 years). What is the oldest historic writing on Korea? Don&#8217;t the Chinese have something older than this Tangun myth?</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72265</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72265</guid>
		<description>They can push the Bronze Age around as much as they want, as Sonagi's article said, there are "no mainstream archaelogists or scholars who accept 2,333 BC as the date of the establishment of Old Chosun." Also, any real history of the period would mention that genetically the people on the Korean Peninsula were related to ones in Japan and Manchuria and became ethnically distinct much later:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O2b_%28Y-DNA%29

This of course would contradict the "uri minjok" propoganda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They can push the Bronze Age around as much as they want, as Sonagi&#8217;s article said, there are &#8220;no mainstream archaelogists or scholars who accept 2,333 BC as the date of the establishment of Old Chosun.&#8221; Also, any real history of the period would mention that genetically the people on the Korean Peninsula were related to ones in Japan and Manchuria and became ethnically distinct much later:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_O2b_%28Y-DNA%29" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.....28Y-DNA%29</a></p>
<p>This of course would contradict the &#8220;uri minjok&#8221; propoganda.</p>
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		<title>By: SomeguyinKorea</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72263</link>
		<dc:creator>SomeguyinKorea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Feb 2007 00:24:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72263</guid>
		<description>Wouldn't they have skulls of people that lived in "Old Chosun"?  Have any of you seen artistically rendered images based on these skulls?  It would be very interesting to see how Koreans could have looked back then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t they have skulls of people that lived in &#8220;Old Chosun&#8221;?  Have any of you seen artistically rendered images based on these skulls?  It would be very interesting to see how Koreans could have looked back then.</p>
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		<title>By: Sonagi</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72249</link>
		<dc:creator>Sonagi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72249</guid>
		<description>Commenters proficient in Korean might check out this story critical of the effectiveness of the 10-yr-old government-subsidized GSIS programs at nine top universities:

[국제대학원 현주소]국제기구 진출, 졸업생의 2% 수준 
http://www.donga.com/fbin/moeum?n=society$c_702&#38;a=v&#38;l=3&#38;id=200702260082

The programs were established in 1996 to help Korean university graduates find positions in international organizations, yet ten years later, the placement rate is a mere 2% for international bodies like the Asian Development Bank and 14% for foreign companies, which have far more job openings than international organizations.  The great majority of graduates found work with domestic employers.

This story makes the Newsweek article look like a bit of a fluff piece.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Commenters proficient in Korean might check out this story critical of the effectiveness of the 10-yr-old government-subsidized GSIS programs at nine top universities:</p>
<p>[국제대학원 현주소]국제기구 진출, 졸업생의 2% 수준<br />
<a href="http://www.donga.com/fbin/moeum?n=societyc_702&amp;a=v&amp;l=3&amp;id=200702260082" rel="nofollow">http://www.donga.com/fbin/moeu.....0702260082</a></p>
<p>The programs were established in 1996 to help Korean university graduates find positions in international organizations, yet ten years later, the placement rate is a mere 2% for international bodies like the Asian Development Bank and 14% for foreign companies, which have far more job openings than international organizations.  The great majority of graduates found work with domestic employers.</p>
<p>This story makes the Newsweek article look like a bit of a fluff piece.</p>
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		<title>By: Sonagi</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72244</link>
		<dc:creator>Sonagi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72244</guid>
		<description>Robert asked:

&lt;i&gt;"i wonder if there is more extensive coverage elsewhere?"&lt;/i&gt;


I found this related story in the education section of the Chosun Ilbo:

새 학기 역사 교과서 기술 달라지는 것
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2007/02/24/2007022400030.html

The article is too long to translate, so I'll summarize a few important points:

     Korean archaelogists and scholars agree that the current dating of the Bronze Age on the Korean peninsula from 1,000 BC needs to be revised, but there is some disagreement as establishing a time period that is supported by archaelogical evidence.  The earliest archaelogical finds have been radioactively dated to 1600 BC; however, scholars generally agree that 1300 BC marks the beginning of the Bronze Age.

     There is some mention of archaelogical relics from discovered in Liaoning Province, which have been dated to 2,000-2,5000 BC.  However, Korean scholars say that archaelogical finds in Korea are culturally distinct from those in Liaoning and thus have no bearing on this issue.  Korean scholars accept the current historical timeline which dates the Bronze Age to 1300 BC at the earliest. (I note that most Chinese firmly believe their nation to have 5,000 years of continuous civilization)

    There is some discussion of the wording in the textbooks regarding the foundation of Old Chosun by Dangun.

current wording:  According to the Record of the Three Kingdoms and the 동국통감, it is written that Dangun founded Old Chosun in 2333 BC.

proposed wording:  According to the Record of the Three Kingdoms and the 동국통감, Dangun founded Old Chosun in 2333 BC.  (article notes that by taking out the indirect speech of 'it is written' the statement seems more factual.)

According to the article, there are no mainstream archaelogists or scholars who accept 2,333 BC as the date of the establishment of Old Chosun.  Their reasoning is that the Neolithic people whose culture created earthenware pots with comb teeth patterns did not have the capability to establish a large kingdom.  Moreover, there is no direct evidence to prove that Old Chosun was in existence at that time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert asked:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;i wonder if there is more extensive coverage elsewhere?&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I found this related story in the education section of the Chosun Ilbo:</p>
<p>새 학기 역사 교과서 기술 달라지는 것<br />
<a href="http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2007/02/24/2007022400030.html" rel="nofollow">http://news.chosun.com/site/da.....00030.html</a></p>
<p>The article is too long to translate, so I&#8217;ll summarize a few important points:</p>
<p>     Korean archaelogists and scholars agree that the current dating of the Bronze Age on the Korean peninsula from 1,000 BC needs to be revised, but there is some disagreement as establishing a time period that is supported by archaelogical evidence.  The earliest archaelogical finds have been radioactively dated to 1600 BC; however, scholars generally agree that 1300 BC marks the beginning of the Bronze Age.</p>
<p>     There is some mention of archaelogical relics from discovered in Liaoning Province, which have been dated to 2,000-2,5000 BC.  However, Korean scholars say that archaelogical finds in Korea are culturally distinct from those in Liaoning and thus have no bearing on this issue.  Korean scholars accept the current historical timeline which dates the Bronze Age to 1300 BC at the earliest. (I note that most Chinese firmly believe their nation to have 5,000 years of continuous civilization)</p>
<p>    There is some discussion of the wording in the textbooks regarding the foundation of Old Chosun by Dangun.</p>
<p>current wording:  According to the Record of the Three Kingdoms and the 동국통감, it is written that Dangun founded Old Chosun in 2333 BC.</p>
<p>proposed wording:  According to the Record of the Three Kingdoms and the 동국통감, Dangun founded Old Chosun in 2333 BC.  (article notes that by taking out the indirect speech of &#8216;it is written&#8217; the statement seems more factual.)</p>
<p>According to the article, there are no mainstream archaelogists or scholars who accept 2,333 BC as the date of the establishment of Old Chosun.  Their reasoning is that the Neolithic people whose culture created earthenware pots with comb teeth patterns did not have the capability to establish a large kingdom.  Moreover, there is no direct evidence to prove that Old Chosun was in existence at that time.</p>
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		<title>By: Sonagi</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72234</link>
		<dc:creator>Sonagi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72234</guid>
		<description>Looks like the history pissing contest between Korea and China is getting wetter. 

RE: the Newsweek article.  Yonsei got most of the good press, yet Ewha beat Yonsei to the punch in establishing an English-medium undergraduate college and its GSIS got top billing a few years ago when the government studied the effectiveness of the subsidized GSIS programs launched at several top universities.  Yonsei is doing good things, but I suspect that a Yonsei alum had a hand in writing the article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like the history pissing contest between Korea and China is getting wetter. </p>
<p>RE: the Newsweek article.  Yonsei got most of the good press, yet Ewha beat Yonsei to the punch in establishing an English-medium undergraduate college and its GSIS got top billing a few years ago when the government studied the effectiveness of the subsidized GSIS programs launched at several top universities.  Yonsei is doing good things, but I suspect that a Yonsei alum had a hand in writing the article.</p>
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		<title>By: trachys</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72230</link>
		<dc:creator>trachys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72230</guid>
		<description>A bit more at the Hankyoreh: http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/192616.html

Looks like the Ministry of Education is doing its best to support the argument that all knowledge, even the "scientific" stuff, is socially constructed ..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bit more at the Hankyoreh: <a href="http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/192616.html" rel="nofollow">http://english.hani.co.kr/arti.....92616.html</a></p>
<p>Looks like the Ministry of Education is doing its best to support the argument that all knowledge, even the &#8220;scientific&#8221; stuff, is socially constructed ..</p>
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		<title>By: seouldout</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72228</link>
		<dc:creator>seouldout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72228</guid>
		<description>Just want to make sure we're talking about &lt;i&gt;the&lt;/i&gt; Dan-gun, the progeny of a she-bear and God's son, right?  If so I remember Paul Bunyan remarking Dan-gun was a helluva guy.  'Bout time he gets the props.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just want to make sure we&#8217;re talking about <i>the</i> Dan-gun, the progeny of a she-bear and God&#8217;s son, right?  If so I remember Paul Bunyan remarking Dan-gun was a helluva guy.  &#8216;Bout time he gets the props.</p>
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		<title>By: Korea &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Korea.net : The Republic of Korea official website</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72227</link>
		<dc:creator>Korea &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Korea.net : The Republic of Korea official website</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2007/02/25/k-educ-trends-teaching-king-dan-gun-as-real-in-english/#comment-72227</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8211; more &#8211; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8211; more &#8211; [...]</p>
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