The Chosun Ilbo is pissed that U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney will bypass Seoul when he comes to the region to meet with Japanese and Australian leaders to, among other things, relay GW’s appreciation for their support in the War on Terror.
Personally, I think it would have been better for Cheney to come to Korea to thank Seoul for its troop deployment in Iraq—3,600 troops in an unpopular war is still 3,600 troops in an unpopular war, even if they are doing a whole lot of nothing in Arbil. And at rate, it’s not like the two sides don’t have anything to discuss.
On the other hand, one could certainly argue that given Cheney’s popularity these days, he’s actually doing Seoul a favor by NOT coming.
Check out GI Korea, One Free Korea and the Lost Nomad for more discussion of this issue.
78 Comments
Yeah, we could do without Satan incarnate visiting Korea.
Ten bucks says you’re one who’s hoping for a Kim Jong Il visit this year, however.
I find the last sentence of the editorial deliciously ironic:
“It is not just a matter of treating an ally properly, but also a matter of diplomatic courtesy to treat with respect the people of a country that has done so much.”
P.S. It’s a good thing that Firefox has finally incorporated a spelling checker. Only if they’d do the same for grammar!
“Ten bucks says you’re one who’s hoping for a Kim Jong Il visit this year, however.”
Joshua, I wouldn’t bet on it.
As I am sure you well know, the trouble with anti-American, xenophobic Korean nationalism is that it runs across the political spectrum.
I have a feeling Hillary Clinton’s VP will be more polite after 08.
I will decline the troll bait about 2008, thanks, but I think left-of-center Koreans and Korea-watchers are gravely mistaken if they expect US-ROK ties to improve if a Democrat wins the White House, just as I think conservatives overestimate similar prospects in the event of a GNP win in Korea in 2007.
Conservatives are the alliance’s traditional base of support in America, and Democrats have never been in a more isolationist mood (the latter word often being a harbinger of policy consequences with the emotional liberal wing of the Democratic party, and Ms. Clinton’s dye job can’t cover her deep liberal roots). I think Democrats will have a strong visceral reaction to anti-Americanism in Korea, even if they are more likely to sympathize with it. They may also project such sentiment on all of Korea and carry out withdrawals accordingly. The American left tends to be generous with emotional support, but tends to express it by withdrawing material and military support.
That’s especially likely if either Lee Myung Bak or Park Geun Hye wins, since both candidates are fundamentally reactionary, authoritarian in their insticts, and likely to turn Korea into a breeding ground for increasingly ugly anti-Americanism. The left, freed of any of the responsibilities of governing and led by nationalist-socialist demagogues like Kim Geun Tae, would incite more violence and hatred than ever. The American left and the media would demonize the Korean government
Really, the alliance’s only remaining base of support in this town is a shrinking moderate-left-”realist” core within the foreign policy establishment. It has adherents in Brookings, CFR, Georgetown, and State, but very little support in Congress or among the public, which means the support has a half life of about five years.
I have a feeling Barack Obama’s VP will be more polite after 08, also.
Noooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Ten bucks says you’re one who’s hoping for a Kim Jong Il visit this year, however.”
You couldn’t be more wrong, Joshua. I personally think Kim Jong-Il deserves a long and painful execution if and when he is in the custody of the US and the UN.
That doesn’t change the fact that I think the five-time Vietnam War draft dodger/ Iraq warhawk is Satan incarnate.
That is certainly true, but it seems like few people (excepting Koreans) know that.
Not a day goes by when I don’t read some Pollyanna’s comment or another on here saying “There won’t be any xenophobia once Roh’s out of office” or variations on that theme.
Pollyannas.
Dogbertt,
My view is middle of the road when it comes to what a conservative post-Roh administration’s foreign policy may look like. That is, while I do not subscribe to the Pollyannaish view that the U.S.-Korea Alliance will revert to pro-DJ days, I do think there will be a dramatic improvement. So neither inebriated optimism nor despair is warranted.
I do want to emphasize, however, that there is not likely a parallel thawing in the Japan-Korea relationship. Japan, for a variety of reasons, will remain South Korea’s favorite rhetorical pinata. In fact, past conservative administrations (even the ones headed by men who were steeped in Japanese culture like Park Chung-hee or Kim Young-sam) have often displayed the same histrionic truculence that the current regime dispays toward Japan.
Yeah thanks for the “zaytun” troops hiding in Irbil, and thanks for delaying the base consolidations and bitching about paying for America to defend you against your idiot cousins up north, and thanks for holding anti-U.S. demonstrations every week, and thanks for banning U.S. beef imports three tiomes on a flimsy pretext, thank you thank you thank you.
Most Koreans are probably are happier that Cheney didn’t come than they are insulted by the snub.
i wonder if this is related to the snub?
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/i.....index.html
Let’s face it, in terms of international diplomacy Cheney is a turd in the dwenjangkuk. The real diplomats are thinking about who will succeed the ‘dead man walking’ Bush administration and what can be done to make he ROK-US relationship more mutually beneficial. That said, things will never go back to the way they were 15-20 years ago because the world has shifted. The US and ROK do not have as much in common as before and the American position in East Asian will progressively diminish over time. Those of you who think that the 2nd ID will still be here 10 years from now are drinking too much soju.
Good move. Why give the haters…er…activists with the impossibly long names an easy target. Let them fabricate their own.
McNut,
No…that was just the Coreans trying to shut down Occidentalism.
It’s simple: Australia and Japan have converging interests with the U.S. and thus will be allies in the future and Korea doesn’t and won’t.
#1 jk: Yeah, we could do without Satan incarnate visiting Korea.
#9 jk: ….That doesn’t change the fact that I think the five-time Vietnam War draft dodger/ Iraq warhawk is Satan incarnate.
Ok, I think we’ve got your message.
Iran has been dubbing the US as the Great Satan since 1979, and President Chavez of Venezuela recently designated President Bush as “El Diablo” in a speech in front of the UN — one that was televised worldwide. So you’re definitely got some distinguished company, when it comes to your professed ability to detect Satan’s worldly appearances.
Approx 59 million Americans voted for the Bush Cheney ticket in 2004. They’d had 4 years to learn the “true” nature of these candidates — so tell me, do you consider all of them to be “little Satans”?
Seems like a logical conclusion. Since you’re so anxious to get your message across to all of us, I think you should clue us in on any further deep theological conclusions you have come to in this matter.
I suspect that your professed ability to detect Satan is in fact inversely proportional to your actual belief in him. Those of us that truly fear evil in this world, and believe that our country (the US) stands against it as a bulwark, are probably somewhat more fearful to casually invoke Satan. That’s something that should be good for a disdainful laugh on your part — if so, make sure you let us know.
Maybe Cheney will stop by your home or office some day for a visit! If he does, leave some standing water in the sink, and invite him to dip in his finger to make it steam (the way Al Pacino did in that movie).
Now that would be a video well worth seeing. In the meantime, I recommend you watch out for the real Satan, lest he actually come a-calling (perhaps in one of his many non-Cheney manifestations). Once his name is invoked, in a “heartfelt” kind of way, they say he may do so — usually when he’s least expected (or that’s the old tradition, anyway; probably there’s nothing to it).
Paul H., Bush and Cheney are two different people, in case you didn’t know it. And furthermore, it seems most of America shares my negative view of Cheney now (as well as for Bush). What do you have to say about THAT? So I am in the same company with most of America. As for Iran and President Chavez, screw them. The fact that you say they hate Bush is NOT a very good defense of Cheney. That’s like saying that because Stalin hated Nazis, who were also enemies of Americans in WWII, that Communism is somehow good.
Come on, think of a clever response….for once.
It’s funny Americans call Koreans xenophobic, when they themselves are not particularly excited about Mexicans coming to their country.
Americans are not “xenophobic” about illegal immigration, if that’s what you’re trying to say–it’s not a fear of/antipathy toward foreigners, they’re concerned about social services going bankrupt and the possibility of criminals sneaking into the country.
Dickie made a booboo.
He should have come to Korea and ask for assistance in attacking Iran.
The US will attack Iran. Get it into your head. Obama and Hilary can yap all they want. Draw parallel with VietNam all they want. VietNam did not have oil.
Oil is the most important resource on this planet.
The US must take over Iran. That will stablize the US for decades to come. When other countries will be paying $20 per gallon of oil, the US will still be paying only $7.
Iran is the next thing.
Dickie, as the trusted lieutenant of Bush and for all the money he had made through Haliburton (he should go to jail for this!), should have come to Seoul and ask for Korea’s troop committment in Iran campaign.
He should have.
Maybe he is no longer close to Bush. (Then, he will go to jail!)
If that chickenhawk sadsack weak-hearted excuse for a vice president does show up at your door, make sure your shotgun(s) is securely locked in your gun cabinet.
barbarian that was probably the most stupid comparison anyone has every made
even worse than dick cheney is satan
“they’re concerned about social services going bankrupt and the possibility of criminals sneaking into the country.”
So you think Americans’ concerns are fundamentally different from those of Koreans?
Americans, like Koreans, just don’t want to lose out in the end one way or another because of the foreigners.
“barbarian that was probably the most stupid comparison anyone has every made
even worse than dick cheney is satan”
You surely sound like one of those dumn and cocky idiots.
Sigh…I was pointing out that you were misusing the word “xenophobia,” and you still are. I get what you mean though, and I disagree–the distinction is that Koreans fundamentally don’t want any immigration by non-Koreans or even Korean-Chinese people, which is happening anyway in Korea. America was built on immigration and welcomes immigrants on a scale unimaginable in Korea. Huge difference there.
“Koreans fundamentally don’t want any immigration by non-Koreans or even Korean-Chinese people.”
You’re generallising here, Michael.
“America —– welcomes immigrants on a scale unimaginable in Korea.”
You should have added ‘Only if those immigrants are beneficial to America.’
“You should have added ‘Only if those immigrants are beneficial to America.’”
No, because that would be untrue–and a generalization.
I live in Korea and I know full well how the Korean government treats immigrants and how the media portrays them, and it’s not “welcoming.” Show me otherwise if you have evidence to the contrary.
michael, I don’t want to get into long discussion here. Let’s agree to disagree and see what others think.
You’re a stand-up guy (gal) babarian and I didn’t mean to pile on you
Time for a beer
hmmmmmm i guess barbarians logic is that mexicans should be welcome even though they come illegally, work illegally, dont pay taxes, want their kids to get a free education, want voting rights, get welfare and food stamps, commit crimes so on and so on
yeah lets agree to disagree
signed
mcnut aka cocky and arrogant
i guess you sound like one of those canadian dipshits nothing to be cocky and arrogant about there
Cheney, should bring the troops back home! Stop wasting money and time on Korea. If Korea removes it troops from Iraq, the US can take away those construction contracts. Is Korea a racist and xenophobic country? Most Koreans will deny these concepts exist in The Land of the Morning Calm. Only the white barbarians are racist remember. Just look at how many “foreigners with Korean citizenship” are serving in high level political and business positions here. Multi ethnic people are never discriminated against in Korea. Why doesn’t anyone ever talk about illegal Koreans in the US? There are quite a few. Cheney, get the troops out of here. It’s time for Korea to take the reigns.
barbarian wrote: “michael, I don’t want to get into long discussion here. Let’s agree to disagree and see what others think.”
I think that barbarian doesn’t understand American society as well as s/he thinks, and I think a majority of commentators here would agree.
It seems that s/he thinks that Americans are xenophobic, which they, in general, most certainly are not.
Furthermore, barbarian seems to want to rationalize (erroneously) Korean racism by equating Korean and American societies, viz:
“Americans, like Koreans, just don’t want to lose out in the end one way or another because of the foreigners.”
Americans don’t want to lose out to the NEXT PERSON; that person’s citizenship is of little to no cosequence.
#21 JK:
“Paul H., Bush and Cheney are two different people, in case you didn’t know it.”
Americans cast one vote for a “ticket” of Pres and VP, at the top of their ballot, in Presidential election years. Unlike the other federal elective races with single candidates, voters can’t “split” their votes on the Presidential ticket, between the Presidential candidate of one party and the VP candidate of the other (this was actually possible in the very early years of the republic, with predicatably bad consequences, thus it was quickly corrected by one of the early post-Bill of Rights amendments to the Constitution).
Evidently you don’t know that.
So — exactly as many Americans voted for Cheney as for Bush. I guess you’re just not willling to take the logical next step and characterize all of them as “little Satans”. Maybe I can get Dogbertt to take the logical next step for his posting, how about it Dogbertt, are all of the 59 million 2004 Bush-Cheney voters “chickenhawk sadsack weak-hearted excuses for human beings”? Feel free to add in any other suitable epithets may come to mind.
BTW, what’s your citizenship JK? I always make mine clear when it’s appropriate, indeed I think everyone here ought to do so; no “high-minded” “citizen of the world” postings should be allowed, though since I’m sadly lacking any of Satan’s infernal powers I’m unable to enforce this dictate on the Marmot.
I may or may not be clever, that’s for others to judge — but I am sincere. I don’t propose to curry favor by demeaning or even literally cursing my own government in front of other countries’ nationals, and you can be quite sure I am contemptuous of those Americans (and those of our “allies”) who choose to do so.
“Americans cast one vote for a ‘ticket’ of Pres and VP, at the top of their ballot, in Presidential election years.”
I am aware of that, Paul H. You obviously missed the point, being that because I called Cheney “Satan Incarnate” you ASSumed that I joined President Hugo Chavez and Iran when they called BUSH (a separate person from Cheney) “Satan.” Bush is NOT Satan…he’s just an *ss.
The American people voted for Bush (almost 3 long years ago). The American people also voted for Clinton. They also voted for Tricky Dick. WHAT’S YOUR POINT??? THAT AMERICANS CAN MAKE MISTAKES? I AGREE WITH YOU.
I am a US citizen, an American. And like a LOT of Americans, I think our VP is a crook. Strange, a LOT of Americans said it in 1998 about Clinton. A LOT of Americans said it in 1973 about Nixon. Does this somehow make us unpatriotic?
I await your response, Paul H.
BTW, Paul H., how about address the other (American) commenters on this thread who were also insulting of our sack-of-sh*t Vice President?
babarian wrote:
““America —– welcomes immigrants on a scale unimaginable in Korea.”
You should have added ‘Only if those immigrants are beneficial to America.’
That is untrue. There are two basic categories of immigrant sponsorship - family and employment. Most legal immigrants obtain visas through the first - family sponsorship. In fact, some immigration reform advocates are critical of current US immigration policies that favor family connections heavily over skills and resources that increase an immigrant’s potential to contribute to society. These family members include elderly parents and older siblings with little or no English and limited formal education.
One reason why the US government instituted a five-year residency requirement for green card holders to receive public assistance was that when US citizens sponsoring family members were not keeping their promise to support those family members, who were receiving food stamps and living in subsidized housing. Since the US government imposed the restrictions, many US states with large immigrant populations have stepped in by offering benefits to new residents ineligible for federal public assistance.
We do welcome immigrants, Michael. Not all of us, but many of our public institutions and private organizations do. The undocumented children at my school receive the same education as their US peers, who embrace them as friends. Immigrant families are kept informed through bilingual communications and Spanish-language evening forums, which many monolingual English-speaking teachers attend to show their interest and support. Most of the undocumented mothers are pregnant or have given birth to a child while living here, and their US-born children are immediately eligible for free infant formula, milk, cheese, beans, and other foodstuffs through the WIC program.
“America was built on immigration and welcomes immigrants on a scale unimaginable in Korea. Huge difference there.”
Another key difference is that many of the foreigners coming to Korea don’t come to Korea to become citizens, while immigrants coming to America usually tend to crave American citizenship.
Also, since it’s obvious that America and Korea have different statuses, it is fact that while the best and brightest of other countries tend to want to come to the US (hence the so-called brain drain of these countries) because of more money and better opportunities, those foreigners, particularly from the West, tend not to be among the “best and brightest” in their own countries. Add to the fact, as mentioned, that they don’t want to become Korean citizens and you can that they won’t be treated as well as recent immigrants to the US.
JK wrote:
“Another key difference is that many of the foreigners coming to Korea don’t come to Korea to become citizens, while immigrants coming to America usually tend to crave American citizenship.”
Which immigrants are you talking about? I believe Chinese nationals, many of whom are ethnic Korean, comprise the largest share of foreign residents of Korea. As you probably know, ethnic Koreans from China, Russia, and Central Asia are ineligible for the F-4 visa.
You are correct that most Western residents do not intend to make Korea their permanent home. However, some, like myself, have considered it, but current laws make permanent residency rights impossible and citizenship unfeasible. Contrast Korea with Japan, where a large number of foreigners from many countries have made themselves at home. Economic differences partly explain the gap, but Japan also offers more feasible options for foreigners seeking permanent residency.
#39 & #40, both by JK:
1) “…..being that because I called Cheney “Satan Incarnate” you ASSumed that I joined President Hugo Chavez and Iran when they called BUSH (a separate person from Cheney) “Satan.” Bush is NOT Satan…he’s just an *ss….”
A “distinction without a difference”, but I reckon that’s a matter of opinion. I still say you’re in “distinguished” company in your choice of egregious insults toward our Pres/VP team; if that makes you even the slightest bit uncomfortable, then that’s just fine with me.
2) “….WHAT’S YOUR POINT???”
To emphasize the difference in outlook between us. For the benefit of what audience? Not you, I’m not so vain as to think I can shame you in the slightest, but for the benefit of any readers here (esp ROK citizens) who might be tempted to think that the use of the vilest invective imaginable toward their own national leadership is the “norm” for most Americans.
(I had you figured for a Canadian, my apologies to Canadians here for the mistake, though I suppose at least some of them may now be happy to come forward and associate themselves vigorously with your views).
3) “BTW, Paul H., how about address[ing] the other (American) commenters on this thread who were also insulting of our sack-of-sh*t Vice President?”
I picked you out because of your choice of “Satan incarnate”. Everyone these days uses “ass”, “sack of shit” etc etc outinely on line, it’s just background noise. (And btw, what’s with the “fig-leaf” usage of the asterisk? My goodness, if you’re going to say it, spell it out in full, no need to further confuse the “English as a second language” Korean students, the ones whom I always assume are here watching and listening carefully).
Your very deliberate choice of “Satan” evoked the image of President Chavez’s recent UN speech calling Bush “El Diablo”. And an extraordinarily vile insult such as that (in an “old-fashioned” sense of the word “insult”) deserves in turn an individual and very deliberate response.
Indeed, for some of us this particular “sensibility” is codified in law, and rather than decrying this “burden” we take pride in being held to a higher standard:
Uniform Code of Military Justice:
[Punitive] ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
First, I think it is quite rich for anyone who starts a thread calling Cheney Satan incarnate to be lecturing anyone on the logic of their responses. I’m not saying that’s not an honestly held view — or that I can prove scientifically that Cheney is not the Dark Prince walking among us (notice how you never see the VP and Satan in one place at the same time?) — I’m just saying that it is an emotional position that robs one of any ground in a rational debate. (Perhaps that’s why JK goes on flailing about Clinton, Nixon etc..)
Second, we have to take the Chosun Ilbo’s account on faith that Cheney was ever considering going to Seoul this time or that the trip was designed to issue the umpteenth U.S. expression of thanks to those other allies. It may be the case that Korean media view every phenomenon in the universe as “all about us” (and that it is Korea 24/7 at the Marmot’s Hole) but that doesn’t make it so in the wider world. Where is the evidence that he was ever invited by Seoul? Usually these things are reciprocal: Roh for Bush, minister for minister…
GI Korea and OneFreeKorea lay out the military and political cases quite well for not going. I’d have to say that if I were Cheney (or even Roh), I’d see mostly downside to his visiting the ROK when the South Koreans are already practically in election mode and when there are so many sore points, from North Korea policy to beef trade to USFK issues. What would he talk about?
Slim, yes, I said it and then addressed the LACK of logic displayed by Paul H when he said I attacked Bush. If you don’t like, your tough luck.
Paul H. Haha, arrest me. I’ll say it again….the 5-time draft dodger during the Vietnam War (I don’t care if he calls it “deferments” because he had “other priorities”) who is still the biggest advocate for the continued war in Iraq based on CRAP for excuses (WMD? Insurgencies in its “last throes”?) at the cost of tens of thousands of young Americans is a CROOK. Ever heard of Halliburton? Dick is a crook and liar. And hopefully this Scooter Libby thing will show him for the crook he is when he sold out a US CIA official who was working undercover. You don’t get much lower than that.
Sonagi, it seems like you’re confusing me for babarian up there in #41
#46 JK: “…Dick is a crook and liar. And hopefully this Scooter Libby thing will show him for the crook he is when he sold out a US CIA official who was working undercover. You don’t get much lower than that…”
Well, at least I got you to go for one post without calling him “Satan” again.
I presume you’re over there (in ROK), and you have Korean language skills. Why not write to the Chosen Ilbo and let them know that instead of whining, they should be exulting over Cheney’s absence? I’m sure they’ll be relieved and happy, once they get the “straight poop” about Cheney from such a high-minded fellow as yourself.
If they still don’t like it — well, tough luck.
It really is difficult to see why anyone would defend Cheney. What has the man done that’s been of benefit?
Ah, the “If you don’t like, your tough luck” school of discourse!
“Contrast Korea with Japan, where a large number of foreigners from many countries have made themselves at home.”
If I take your ‘made themselves at home’ as having permanent residency or citizenship, I think you’re not likely to be accurate. Having observed and dealt with the Japanese over the years, read and heard about them in the media over the years, and briefly visited the ocuntry,I would be very surprised if it is easier in Japan than in Korea for an American, or foreigners in general, to get permanent residency. I doubt that you would be able to substantiate your view.
“And furthermore, it seems most of America shares my negative view of Cheney now (as well as for Bush).”
Most Americans hate Cheney and Bush? Most Americans think they are the devil incarnate?
“all the money he had made through Haliburton (he should go to jail for this!),”
Did Cheney recieve money illegally in his dealings with/for Halliburton? I think not (where’s your proof), so no reason for him to go to jail.
“I think our VP is a crook.”
Where’s your proof? Just because you hate the guy doesn’t make him a crook.
“It really is difficult to see why anyone would defend Cheney.”
It’s not difficult in the least. He is one of the most intelligent politicians I’ve seen interviewed. People may not agree with him or like what he does, but he certainly seems to be very shrewd.
What has his intelligence and shrewdness done for the betterment of the United States and its citizens? That’s what I’m asking.
Throughout history, there have been myriad shrewd politicians, many of whom merely lined their pockets and shafted those they ostensibly were elected to represent.
As far as interviews, again, what does that have to do with his performance as Vice President? What has his time spent in “undisclosed locations” and on hunting trips done for the good of the nation?
He may have had a good interview. I’ve seen interviews of Cheney where he comes off as sarcastic, smug, self-righteous, and just plain wrong.
No, Paul H., I am not in Korea now. Actually, I occasionally go to a church where one of the members works personally for Cheney (not that he said anything bad about the fat bastard of a VP). That should tell you the general vicinity of where I live.
Oh yeah, Paul H., Cheney is STILL Satan incarnate.
babarian wrote:
“If I take your ‘made themselves at home’ as having permanent residency or citizenship, I think you’re not likely to be accurate. Having observed and dealt with the Japanese over the years, read and heard about them in the media over the years, and briefly visited the ocuntry,I would be very surprised if it is easier in Japan than in Korea for an American, or foreigners in general, to get permanent residency. I doubt that you would be able to substantiate your view.”
Please see Debito’s website for permanent residency requirements:
http://www.debito.org/permres.html
and naturalization requirements:
http://www.debito.org/naturalization.html
Korea has no green card comparable to the US, Canada, or even Japan. The only foreigners with true permanent residency are Taiwanese passport holders. Missionaries do enjoy long-term residency, and spouses of Korean nationals have family visas that can be renewed as long as they remain married to Korean nationals. Among the requirements for naturalization in Korea, foreign applicants must invest a certain amount of money - $60,000, I believe. Japan requires naturalization applicants to have secure employment, but there doesn’t appear to be a specific savings/investment requirement.
1) #54 jk: “No, Paul H., I am not in Korea now…”
Seemed like a logical conclusion on my part, based on the “we” in your #1:
“Yeah, we could do without Satan incarnate visiting Korea.”
I recommend in the future you stick to “I” for your assertions, rather than the rather imperial usage of the plural first person; you don’t speak for me, especially in theological matters.
2) “Actually, I occasionally go to a church where one of the members works personally for Cheney (not that he said anything bad about the fat bastard of a VP)….”
Glad to hear you’re in church. I recommend you privately renounce there your assertions as to personal knowledge of Satan’s worldly manifestations — lest he has heard you, and is currently fitting you into his upcoming schedule.
But if that’s unacceptable, why don’t you confront the Cheney assistant personally in church and let him know your opinion as to his boss’s true identity? Get someone to take video of it and post it on YouTube, then let the board here know so those who wish can see it for ourselves.
That way I can be impressed by you as a genuine tough guy, vs just another garden-variety internet boaster.
I said:
“Yeah, we could do without Satan incarnate visiting Korea.”
And Paul H., I mean WE, the American people. WE, which would include you, can do without Satan incarnate visiting Korea.
Boy, you REALLY are taking my calling Cheney more personally than I realized (and a little too literally). Too bad…your problem. To me, he is still Satan incarnate. You can take that any way you like. I really don’t care.
The guy at the church I occasionally attend who works for Cheney…I won’t say anything to him or about him on this blog. What would be the point? He himself is a good guy. It’s his boss who is the evil *sshole.
I never understood how some people can defend the chickenhawks in the White House. But it makes sense that those who AVOIDED the military draft in their youth (Bush and Cheney) would be those who know the least about war and who are the ones making the biggest blunders in fighting the current war in Iraq. Meanwhile, people who participated in wars in their younger days, like Colin Powell, who recommend a more cautious (and proven) approach to fighting, get squeezed out of office.
But surely Cheney and his policies can be opposed or criticized in an at least somewhat intelligent fashion, no?
“But surely Cheney and his policies can be opposed or criticized in an at least somewhat intelligent fashion, no?”
Hear, hear, Slim. Excellent point. Calling someone ’satan incarnate’ gives the name-caller about as much credibility as Mickey Mouse.
“What has his intelligence and shrewdness done for the betterment of the United States and its citizens? That’s what I’m asking.”
I believe the Bush admin is very focussed on doing what THEY think is best for the country. Did they fail to achieve what they intended? That’s obviously very open to debate. And what has him hiding out in bunkers and going on hunting trips got to do with his performance? I don’t know what the VP does, but I figure he plays a critical role in the Bush admin.
It’s easy to defend him. I just like the guy. You’ve given no clue as to why he should be hated. Where’s your proof that he acted only in his own interests, the interests of cronies or against the interests of the US? Halliburton is not a good answer because in fact, Halliburton was really the only firm (besides a French one) that was big enough to handle the logistics of the scale of work in Iraq (as stated by The Economist). And anyway, Halliburton has not done well from Iraq, so what good has their connection to Cheney done them?
As Slim said, rational and reasonable criticism of Cheney and Bush are fine, but irrational nutty hatred is tiresome.
And I happen to believe that the results of THEM doing what THEY think is the best for the country should be measured objectively, not subjectively. By any objective standard, Bush and his administration have failed to do what’s best for the nation.
Oh wait…I see you’re being sarcastic. OK.
Sonagi,
You provided only the Japanese link, so I cannot really compare the two.
As you might know, the Japanese government required foreigners to take fingerprints to register as aliens (I think they had to do it every year, but I’m not sure.) until the 90’s when they were effectively forced to abandon because of the international controversy.
Until very recently, naturalization was pretty much non-existent in Korea. If somebody became naturalized, they would become the news. However, it seems very different now. This article says there were 1471 in 2005 and 1838 in 2006, and rapidly increaing each year. (http://news.naver.com/news/read.php?mode=LSS2D&office_id=001&article_id=0001538278§ion_id=103§ion_id2=245&menu_id=103)
That’s a radical change.
Sorry, my link doesn’t seem to work. It was the naver article posted here a few posts earlier regarding naturalised foreigners taking Korean names.
“Oh wait…I see you’re being sarcastic. OK.”
Why can’t Cheney be working in the bunker? So he goes hunting, what’s the big deal? He supposedly stays in a bunker (keeps a low profile) and goes hunting. If this is the worst criticism of Cheney then it’s a joke at best. He probably figures it’s better to keep a low profile. It seems that no matter what Cheney does, he’ll be called evil or dangerous or whatever. And I’m still waiting for a shred of proof that he has ever committed an illegal act.
And yes, Bush et al are doing what they think is best for the country and you don’t think that what they’ve done is best for the country. Fair enough, but it’s obviously a question open to debate. According to your subjective opinion, he has failed. So what wonderful suggestions do you have for improving America?
The myth of the informed electorate. Seriously, I nearly cried when I read that.
For starters:
1. Get out of Iraq. Halt military adventurism there and elsewhere.
2. Pursue further engagement with the Chinese, in particular, seeking greater influence over them and their actions.
3. Drop sanctions against Cuba and North Korea.
4. Institute a foreign policy based on pragmatism, not idealism.
5. Severely restrict legal immigration for a period sufficient to allow a comprehensive and rational overhaul of the nation’s immigration policy. Do more to combat illegal immigration. Abandon the jus solis policy of bestowing citizenship.
6. Select advisors, cabinet members, and diplomats upon the basis of merit, discounting party membership, shared ideology, and fundraising prowess.
7. Do more than give lip service to developing non-petroleum based sources of energy. Strongly encourage the development of nuclear power generation. At the same time, encourage/incentivize energy conservation.
8. Drop tariffs on imported goods and eliminate trade barriers. But do not shy from using the same as internal incentives to encourage positive social change.
9. Legalize the use of controlled substances. Monopolize their production and sale by the state.
10. Remove development subsidies and zoning anomalies that encourage sprawl, destruction of nature/farmland, and inefficient use of land.
That’s just for starters. I haven’t even touched on public transportation, health care, and a host of other things.
But what do I know compared to an alcoholic C student who is subject to the whims of a peculiar form of Protestantism?
“The myth of the informed electorate. Seriously, I nearly cried when I read that.”
I’m not an American. And why doesnt the genius inform us of exactly what Cheney does?
“But what do I know compared to an alcoholic C student who is subject to the whims of a peculiar form of Protestantism?”
Haha. You really are a smartass. Most of your claims as to what Bush should do are certainly very debatable, but certainly not objective. I even agree with some of them, but so many of them are typical pie in the sky bromides.
1. Get out of Iraq. Halt military adventurism there and elsewhere.
Yes, the wonders of cut and run. And the wonders of isolationism.
2. Pursue further engagement with the Chinese, in particular, seeking greater influence over them and their actions.
Nice generalization. What exactly should the US do different than what they are doing now?
3. Drop sanctions against Cuba and North Korea.
What would be the benefits of doing this?
4. Institute a foreign policy based on pragmatism, not idealism.
The Bush admin’s foreign policy is based on idealism? Underneath it all, the Bush admin absolutely acts on what it thinks is pragmatic, despite the claims of doing it all ‘for democracy’. I never believed that Iraq was about making a democracy.
5. Severely restrict legal immigration for a period sufficient to allow a comprehensive and rational overhaul of the nation’s immigration policy. Do more to combat illegal immigration. Abandon the jus solis policy of bestowing citizenship.
Hey, I agree here. Immigration has to be more controlled.
6. Select advisors, cabinet members, and diplomats upon the basis of merit, discounting party membership, shared ideology, and fundraising prowess.
Oh, so do what neither the Republicans nor the Democrats will do?
7. Do more than give lip service to developing non-petroleum based sources of energy. Strongly encourage the development of nuclear power generation. At the same time, encourage/incentivize energy conservation.
Lip service? Didn’t Bush just make a state of the union speech and put alot of cash into developing alternatives. Where were you? There’s definitely a big push on for nuclear, opposed by many Democrats and other assorted leftists.
8. Drop tariffs on imported goods and eliminate trade barriers. But do not shy from using the same as internal incentives to encourage positive social change.
Good luck there. If anything the Democrats are more protectionist than the Repubs. And how is the dropping of tarriffs supposed to tie in with encouraging positive social change? Sounds pie in the sky.
9. Legalize the use of controlled substances. Monopolize their production and sale by the state.
Hey, another one I agree with. How about that?
10. Remove development subsidies and zoning anomalies that encourage sprawl, destruction of nature/farmland, and inefficient use of land.
I’m not sure this has anything to do with the federal government. Isn’t this under state jurisdiction?
“9. Legalize the use of controlled substances. Monopolize their production and sale by the state.”
On second thought, though I agree with the legalizing of some controlled substances, I’m not sure I like the idea of monopolizing production and sale by the state. You seriously want to give yet more power to the state? Why do so many leftists hate government and yet hold that the solutions to so many problems is ‘the government’ (not saying this is what you claimed)?
Yes, WE are still better off without Satan Incarnate visiting Korea. Not the best thing for US-Korea relations……
And like most Americans, I still think the man’s a lying crook.
Pissed?
The Japanese should count their blessings and feel honored.
One thing to be said about my xenophobic America, if we are hell bent on treating immigrants poorly, why would we develop a credit card for them? BOA has a new credit card that does not require a social security number. How about drivers licenses for illegal immigrants in the states? Thinking back on my experience of acquiring a local credit card and cell phone as a legal waygook….Oh My!
Hate Cheney all you like, we have not had terrorist attacks in the soil since 9-11, unless you count the hunting accident.
Yeah, and don’t forget over 3,000 US men and women in arms who have died in Iraq for those WMDs.
Yeah, and don’t forget over 3,000 US men and women in arms who have died in Iraq for those WMDs.
This is an incredibly low number. We lost more in 9-11. How many people have we lost in the US to terrorists since then?
So….it makes it okay to go to war in Iraq over a lie perpetuated by a corrupt US administration, run by chicken hawks, because of a horrendous crime that occurred because of Al-Qaeda terrorists that had nothing to do with the crime on 9-11?
Correction: I should say: “…that had no known connection with Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with the crime on 9-11?”
Saddam Hussein was a weapon of mass destruction that needed to be removed. If we would have moved sooner, like when the UN suggested we do, we would have found the weapons that are now in hiding in Syria. I have zero problems with our actions in Iraq, I just regret that we did not take Baghdad the first go-around. George and Dick should be applauded for doing G-d’s work.
Of course you don’t; you’re Jewish.
I do not trust Bush when he says he knows what God wants.
double tt dogberts? What is that?
Of course you don’t; you’re Jewish.
Your myopic statement made me laugh out loud. Where the hell did you pull that silly ass assumption from? I expected more from you!
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[...] Marmot, Lost Nomad ,OFK, and GI Korea make light of Vice-President Cheney’s decision not to visit Seoul as he tours Japan, Australia, and Guam. The argument expressed in the Chosun editorial emphasizes the source of South Korea’s disapproval. “The only reason the Korean government dispatched troops there is because of our commitment to the alliance.” (Italics mine) Now, we can quibble with the partisan political tactics the Roh administration and (no longer)-ruling Uri Party are using to disparage the Bush administration, and all the assorted other issues involved in a situation where the ROK-US alliance becomes ‘irrelevant’ (GI Korea does a particularly good job at articulating this sentiment.), but such sentiments in themselves, on both the American and South Korean sides, are irrelevant. Even if he has to grimace through a few hours of photo opportunities slap hands, and move his lips, such is the lot of an American vice-president, America’s most worthless job. That’s why we elected Cheney to the office. [...]
[...] Make sure you check out the Marmot, Nomad, and OFK for more views on the Cheney [...]