Let the Sino-Korean netizen war begin!

by Robert Koehler on February 4, 2007

in China, East and Central Asia, IT Korea, Korean History, South Korea

jumong.jpgGod, I love this place.

Yonhap is reporting that Chinese netizens are pissed off at what they consider historical distortions in the Korean historical dramas “Jumong” and “Taewang Sasingi.”

According to a Hong Kong current events weekly, Chinese netizens are criticizing the MBC drama “Jumong” for distorting history. “Jumong,” strangely enough, deals with the life of Jumong, the founder of the Goguryeo kingdom. Hong Kong’s ATV, watched throughout much of southern China, has recently begun daily broadcasts of the drama.

The Chinese website Tiannya, however, has labeled the show an “anti-Chinese drama” and slammed its content. Among some of the things Chinese netizens have been saying:

  • “One Japan is enough, but now even Korea…” (Ooo, low blow)
  • “Koreans have intentionally distorted history by depicting themselves as virtuous and Han Dynasty Chinese as cruel” (Hey, count yourselves lucky. We had to pay 35,000 dead saving them from the North Koreans for the privilege of being bashed in their films and dramas)
  • “The drama is full of just animosity toward the Han Dynasty. It depicts the Han Dynasty as worse than Japan.” (At this point, the Japanese are no doubt wondering how they got involved in the discussion)

Anyway, with critical opinion mounting, ATV changed the subtitling a bit, substituting different terms for “Han Dynasty” and “nation” to make it more paletable to Chinese viewers. Said the vice-president of ATV, “We’ve changed some of the sensitive terms… From the audience’s position, it’s an interesting and well-made drama, and even the subject is nothing more than a legend and myth.”

“Taewang Sasingi,” a fantasy-historic drama which deals with the life of King Gwanggaeto the Great of Gogureyo, might be even more problematic for the Chinese authorities. Scheduled to begin in September, Chinese netizens have already begun focusing their attention on it. Staring Bae Yong-jun, a major Korean Wave star making his first appearence in five years, and blessed with the largest production cost in the history of Korean dramas, the Chinese are already expressing concern, with the Propaganda Department of the Chinese Communist Party banning media reports on the drama.

Moreover, according to Yonhap, with Korea airing other historical dramas dealing with Goguryeo and Balhae history, the Chinese are starting to feel, well, disconcerted.

The Hong Kong weekly noted, however, that Korean experts say that the Korean Wave does not constitute a “cultural invasion” (Remember, children, it’s cultural imperialism only when the Americans do it); Korean interest in Chinese dramas is also on the rise, and that through mutual cooperation you’ll see a “cultural fusion” over the long term. In particular, they noted that Korean stars have been acting in a lot of Chinese dramas, and you’re seeing a continuing number of joint Sino-Korean productions, so this could be the start of a “New Korean Wave.”

Meanwhile, on the Baekdusan Front, Chinese netizens have been having a bit of fun with the Korean women’s short-track skating team’s “Baekdusan Ceremony.”

The Chinese government has banned local media reports of the problematic photo, but that hasn’t stopped Chinese netizens—busy little bunch they are—from ripping off the photo from the Chinese-language editions of Korean newspapers and doing a bit of Photoshop work.

At a bulletin board at Baidu.com, some clever Netizen played with the photo to read, “Mars is our territory!”

mars-korean.jpg

This might actually be true, if we assume for a moment that North Korea might as well be Mars.

Others on the bulletin board penned slogans that read, “Our step-father is the United States” and “We want a large American army,” delivering the message that they regard Korea as an American vassal state.

Another poster at a forum at Drblogs.com coined this creative slogan, “We are the sons and subjects of the cheonjo.” Cheonjo, or “Court of Heaven,” is how China used to refer to the Chinese emperor before foreign countries. The message here should be fairly obvious.

Still others, through creative application of Photoshop, changed the silver medals into ears of corn. Apparently, a dialectical Chinese term for corn is bangzi, which is also used as a deragotory term for “people,” as in gaoli bangzi, a deragotory term for Koreans reportedly favored by some Chinese diplomats to refer to their North Korean allies.

One of the commenters here at the blog linked to several stellar examples (search around in the thread), including this one requiring very little in the way of translation:

fuckme.jpg

Even though Chinese netizen opinion is overwhelmingly critical of Korea regarding the “Baekdusan Ceremony,” you could still occasionally spot Chinese netizens expression disappointment and shock over the incident. One netizen was disappointed that even “virtuous Chinese” who’d been protecting the friendly Sino-Korean relationship were being forced into confrontation, while another netizen slammed both nations, saying that while Koreans “knew no shame,” China was incompetent.

UPDATE: When the Chosun Ilbo is right (as in correct, not its politics), it’s right (HT to wjk).  The caption, BTW, reads, “What, you’re not going to declare diplomatic war on China?”  And in the Chosun’s “make your own caption” section (nice idea, BTW), one reader—alluding to this—wrote, “Mu-hyeon, you need to call Goguryeo the Country of Peace and Baekdusan the Mountain of Peace.”

UPDATE 2: Commentor Sonagi links to more Chinese parodies of the “Baekdusan Ceremony” and provides translations.

{ 96 comments… read them below or add one }

1 Mark February 4, 2007 at 4:18 pm

War on two fronts. Nice. :cool:

2 Won Joon Choe February 4, 2007 at 4:47 pm

A trivial correction, Robert:

I think you got this:

“Moreover, according to Yonhap, with Korea planning to produce even more historical dramas dealing with Goguryeo and Balhae history, the Chinese are starting to feel, well, disconcerted.”

from this:

“이밖에도 `연개소문’, `대조영’ 등 고구려와 발해 역사를 다룬 드라마가 한국에서 계속 제작되는데 대해 중국은 불안감을 느끼고 있다.”

But both “연개소문” and “대조영” have already been on air for a while and are not merely in the “planning” stage. Further, to my knowledge, there are no other Koguryo dramas planned by the Big Three stations in the immediate future, though there is one about Dangun.

As an aside both “연개소문” and “대조영” contain far more serious historical distortions than “Jumong” (and, no, Sonagi, they are presented as historical dramas and not “fantasy historical dramas,” unlike “Jumong”). I suspect these two far more incendiary dramas have gone under the Chinese radar mainly because neither of the two leading actors, respectively, Yoo Donggun and Choi Soojong, are young heartthrobs in the mold of Song Ilguk of “Jumong.”

3 Robert Koehler February 4, 2007 at 4:50 pm

Woops, my bad. Corrected.

4 a-letheia February 4, 2007 at 4:53 pm

“This might actually be true, if we assume for a moment that North Korea might as well be Mars.” Good one!

5 wjk February 4, 2007 at 5:02 pm

they can’t tolerate a mountain that has little to do with Han China but more to do with the Manchus, Koreans, and Jurchens.

No surprise they get pissed off about anything about Koguryeo.

Hey, it covers more territory.

Han Chinese.

What do the Chinese have to say about the Manchus, Jurchens, Mongolians who ruled China as Emperors over the Han Chinese? I guess nowadays all these people are counted as under the Han Chinese umbrella.

See, I knew Goguryeo was a Gook Nae Yong education. This is all thanks to the Kim Dynasty of Shilla who started this tributary to the Chinese system. Hail General Kim Yoo Shin. The greatest Korean general ever. LOL. His greatest accomplishments were in defeating Baekchae and Koguryeo. Personally to me, in the same line as Lt. Okamoto defeating Korean independence fighters. What’s the difference?

6 wjk February 4, 2007 at 5:08 pm

give inner Mongolia back to Mongolia. Oops. That might cause some hatred…

7 kimchi2000 February 4, 2007 at 5:09 pm

chinese are finally showing their true face. koreans, we must wake up and confront the truth. koreans are slowly losing everying. we already lost mount bakdu and gando to chinese, and we will lose whole north korea to chinese in the future. we must do whatever it takes to preserve our land and people. however, if history does indeed repeat itself… korea’s future doesnt look so good.

8 Robert Koehler February 4, 2007 at 5:22 pm

give inner Mongolia back to Mongolia. Oops. That might cause some hatred…

I’m not sure if the Mongolians really want it. Mongolians only make up 17 percent of the population of Inner Mongolia, although oddly enough, in terms of absolute numbers, the Mongolian population of Inner Mongolia (about 4 million) is actually twice that of the independent Republic of Mongolia (i.e., Outer Mongola).

9 wjk February 4, 2007 at 5:28 pm

that would be a classic Han Chinese tactic of sinicizing other people. By marriage or just moving Han Chinese to settle there. Then, claim that everyone is Chinese. Doing it to the Koreans and the Manchus in the PRC, too.

10 mcnut February 4, 2007 at 5:31 pm

my wife watches that stupid drama…..its funny because it shows korea guys kicking a lot of ass and i am sitting there saying hmmmmmm why dont i beleive this??????

oh well the mars picture was quite funny

koreans can seem like they are from another world quite often

11 mcnut February 4, 2007 at 5:40 pm

and another thing

kimchee2000 if korean guys grew a pair of nuts maybe you wouldnt lose all the time

12 wjk February 4, 2007 at 5:42 pm

I have a feeling South Korea will just sit and watch when the Chinese militarily claim North Korea as part of China.

That’s why I advocate South Korea to make their own nuke.

13 kimchi2000 February 4, 2007 at 5:59 pm

mcnut
i completely agree with u. korea have history of losing their land and women to japanese, mongolian and chinese. innocent koreans suffered so much throughout korean history because koreans would not (and could not) fight back. i hope cycle of suffering would end but i fear it will continue.
i agree with wjk, korea should have nuke. they must do everything possible to protect themselve.

14 wjk February 4, 2007 at 6:45 pm

http://photo.chosun.com/site/d.....00774.html

I love political cartoons. This one is notable.

15 wjk February 4, 2007 at 6:48 pm

• 최춘기 (kckmd) 찬성하기 0 반대하기 1
주 몽.연개소문,대조영,계백 이런 것들은 다 뺄갱이들의 장난인기라! 고구려와 백제,발해는 이미 신라가 중국에 팔아 묵은 패망한 왕조에 불과 흔기라! 오직 신라만이 우리의 정통 민족이라꼬 며칠전 역사학자도 애기 흔기라! 고구려 만주를 애기하모 북한를 돕자카는 넘들은 다 뺄개이가 학씰한기라! 오직 신라와 신라의 후손만이 우리의 정통이고 한나라당만이 정통이다.한나라당만세! (02/04/2007 18:40:14)

/there are Kyong Sang people who think like this.

16 Robert Koehler February 4, 2007 at 6:57 pm

Cute comment. Probably some dude in Mokpo writing it, but still cute.

17 shakuhachi February 4, 2007 at 8:13 pm

“Koreans have intentionally distorted history by depicting themselves as virtuous and Han Dynasty Chinese as cruel” (Hey, count yourselves lucky. We had to pay 35,000 dead saving them from the North Koreans for the privilege of being bashed in their films and dramas)

This reminds me of that Korean movie called Musa. In it the Mongolians are barbaric and filthy, and the Chinese are greedy and ugly. The Koreans on the other hand were handsome, brave, and intelligent along with having enormous martial prowess. The Chinese person who I was watching it with was laughing at it and asking “why do the Koreans want to show themselves as being so great?”. We watched until half way through until we completely tired of this boring cinematic exercise in masturbation.

18 Sonagi February 4, 2007 at 9:26 pm

Those Photoshopped pictures are hysterical!!! No one can say Chinese netizens don’t have a sense of humor! In fact, the previous historical clash over the history books inspired gales of laughter and hoots of “gaoli bangzi” more than indignation.

19 Sonagi February 4, 2007 at 9:27 pm

@mcnut:

Please don’t feel the troll who may not even be Korean.

20 Sonagi February 4, 2007 at 11:47 pm

Chinese netizens are really having fun with this. One commenter posted the picture with the words blanked out and challenged Chinese netizens to do their own creative Photoshopping:

http://www.tianya.cn/publicfor.....8735.shtml

Below I’ve translated a few of the Photoshopped images:

“We want to go home, thanks”

“The second girl from the left isn’t bad, eh”

“Give us the second girl, send back the rest”

“I love Beijing Tiananmen”

“only 200 yuan for 6 P”

“The person in the middle is free” (beard drawn over girl’s face)

“Korea sends its love to the US government”

“We sell our beauty and our bodies”

“Gaoli banzi are not people”

“We grew up to become pigheads”

“It was hard to get tickets for Lunar New Year”

“Korean men are little chickens”

“This is our hometown” (photo of elephants in Africa)

Well, you get the idea.

21 Sonagi February 4, 2007 at 11:51 pm

I noticed in the Naver picture that the martian’s placard was blanked out and guessed that it might read “gaoli banzi;” I finally found an original picture way down on the previous Chinese BBS link and the little martian’s sign reads “SB bangzi.”

22 R. Elgin February 5, 2007 at 12:29 am

All this is only the beginning. The Chinese Government’s appetite for control and misdeeds will only increase in time; the two will feed each other.

23 cm February 5, 2007 at 1:18 am

I’ve been watching Jumong for a while and I can’t believe that anyone would take it seriously. It is so obvious that a lot of the stuff are made up based on a Korean legend.

“What do the Chinese have to say about the Manchus, Jurchens, Mongolians who ruled China as Emperors over the Han Chinese?”

The Chinese would call them “Chinese”. To the Chinese, Koreans, Japanese and most other Asian groups are considered “Chinese”. So naturally for the Chinese, “Koguryo” was Chinese. The Chinese see themselves as the original source of all Asiatic people, so therefore they deserve respect as would a father deserves respect from children (in other words, there is no such thing as a Mongloid race – because they’re all “Chinese race”). I think this is where it’s becoming problematic.

24 pawikirogi February 5, 2007 at 1:27 am

‘my wife watches that stupid drama…..its funny because it shows korea guys kicking a lot of ass and i am sitting there saying hmmmmmm why dont i beleive this??????’ mcdummy

they established parhae and koguryeo, didn’t they?

‘why don’t i believe that?’ mcass

because korean men make fun of you?

****

where’s the condemnation of the korean stereotypes? i remember marmot going all haywire when koreans ran cartoons with chinamen in them. interesting he doesn’t go haywire when the chinese do it to koreans. why the hypocrisy?

****

fuck the chinese. don’t like it? don’t watch it!

25 cm February 5, 2007 at 1:43 am

“‘my wife watches that stupid drama…..its funny because it shows korea guys kicking a lot of ass and i am sitting there saying hmmmmmm why dont i beleive this??????’ mcdummy”

That happens because it’s Korean drama with the target audience being Koreans. Same thing happens in Chinese dramas where Chinese kick ass of everyone else. Same in American movies, it’s always American heroes saving the day.

26 Sonagi February 5, 2007 at 1:56 am

pawi asks:

“where’s the condemnation of the korean stereotypes? i remember marmot going all haywire when koreans ran cartoons with chinamen in them. interesting he doesn’t go haywire when the chinese do it to koreans. why the hypocrisy? “

The sexism in the photoshopped images – the body part drawings and calling the girls prostitutes – is crude and tasteless. Otherwise, one cannot fault the Chinese for mocking the childish displays of Korean nationalism. Keep in mind that these images were created by netizens not by the government or any state-owned media organization. It’s called “blowback,” pawi. Childish Korean nationalism fuels Chinese scorn.

27 xixi February 5, 2007 at 2:06 am

sonagi,

Some of your translations are not right. And you missed the best ones.

28 tomas February 5, 2007 at 2:10 am

You know, I just got finished watching “The Godfather” trilogy, and it hit me like a stone as I saw the character portrayals of all of Don Corleones sons.

If Corleone brothers represented countrees…Fredo is Korea to a T. Trying so hard to be great and “noticeable”…to such extreme and ridiculous ends where it works against him. All of which can be attributed to a very damaged ego and inferiority complex.

I feel sorry for Korea in a way.

29 Sonagi February 5, 2007 at 2:16 am

Yes, Xixi, it was a quick job, done before I had scrolled down to the end. I learned some new slang. The third quote should be corrected to read F*** the second girl, send the rest back. Regardless of inaccurate translations the overall message is very clear.

What is “P” in the “six P” placard? I saw it on other photos and have seen it elsewhere on the web. There seem to be a lot of acronyms entering Chinese slang usage.

30 wjk February 5, 2007 at 2:23 am

shakuhachi, for you to say that, you must say that all or almost all US based movies with US as the protagonist is cinematic masturbation.

Not sure what attracts you so much to Korea every single day of your life, costing you money and time, but all you get from it is a negative and nothing positive, you’re one of the saddest creatures I know of.

31 wjk February 5, 2007 at 2:31 am

Marmot posts something on his site, at least 20 different people respond with comments reaching 100.

Shakuhachi gets jealous, goes to his site, posts the same exact thing, only 5 different people (most of them residing in Japan, too) respond with about 20 comments, all affirming to each other that they love each other and Japan.

32 wjk February 5, 2007 at 2:32 am

Gerry, so handsome.

Matt, so handsome.

/ I can’t make this up.

33 ggoma chief February 5, 2007 at 3:37 am

lets home the long belated reality kicks into koreans. China = hegemony

34 ul February 5, 2007 at 5:53 am

Re: cm’s post # 23 and 25
I’ve also heard that line of thinking from some Chinese people. Yup, that’s where things become problematic. #25 hits it right on too. I think both sides are wrong in doing this.
Didn’t China start with the politics by making certain references to the mountain at the beginning of the ceremony…?

35 cm February 5, 2007 at 6:41 am

“Didn’t China start with the politics by making certain references to the mountain at the beginning of the ceremony…?”

I actually like to think this all started with China’s the great North East Asian history project started back in the 1990’s, and their sudden and deliberate erasing of Korean history prior to 1945 in their government sponsored web site. Now China did not have to do that. That was mean.

36 dogbertt February 5, 2007 at 8:57 am

Unlike Dokdo vis-a-vis Japan, isn’t China acknowledged as having parts of 백두산 within its borders, at least by North Korea? Has South Korea never recognized this, or is this protest part of an irredentist movement? Or is it simply a protest against China’s use of its own name for the mountain?

37 SomeguyinKorea February 5, 2007 at 9:51 am

Well, if the following is true, don’t expect the new 10 000 won note to be printed for long. Many Koreans are demanding that the Bank of Korea redesigns the bill because some historians have said that astrolab on the back of new bill is in fact Chinese. Given the ongoing spat over history between Korean and Chinese netizens, lots of people are quite naturally embarrassed by the mistake.

38 xixi February 5, 2007 at 2:01 pm

sonagi,

6P means sixsome in netzen language, just as 3P means threesome. In our case, we have five girls here… You get the idea. I admit there are so many abbreviations using Latin letters in Chinese netizen language. And everyday there are new ones poping out. It’s hard to follow all of them even for a native speaker.

39 Origami February 5, 2007 at 3:39 pm

China claims Genghis Khan as its own:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/1a6986.....e2340.html

I’m surprised they are showing the drama over there. I didn’t think it would pass their censors.

I’m really getting tired of these overbearing Chinese.

40 SomeguyinKorea February 5, 2007 at 4:22 pm

Origami,

That’s just nuts. Looks like the Mongolians need to start worrying about being invaded by the Chinese, too.

41 pawikirogi February 5, 2007 at 6:51 pm

btw, ‘chumong’ is just a good show and for those who don’t hate korean men, i highly recommend it. unfortunately, you also have to speak korean because there’s no dvd subtitles.

one last thing, let’s not forget that all these shows on parhae and koguryeo are a direct result of china’s attempt to steal korean history.

42 SomeguyinKorea February 5, 2007 at 7:26 pm

No, pawi,

Those aren’t attempts to steal Korea’s history. It’s more serious than that. They are stage for the annexion of North Korea before it collapses and the eventual invasion of South Korea.

43 SomeguyinKorea February 5, 2007 at 8:22 pm

“They are setting the stage for the…”

Darn ‘insert’ key.

44 Breaktrack February 5, 2007 at 8:30 pm

Koreans do it to other people, it’s going to get done back to them. Koreans can dish it out, but they can’t take it. Plain and simple. As far as Korean dramas go, I’ve seen monkeys with bongos in the circus act better than the actors in Korean dramas.

45 railwaycharm February 5, 2007 at 9:45 pm

wjk,

Did you and pawi ride to school together on the small bus?

46 ggoma chief February 6, 2007 at 2:36 am

its funny how jumong is even deemed anything near a historic drama (and was never really meant to be one). why so much fuss over a semi-realistic cartoon?

47 wjk February 6, 2007 at 3:35 am

railwaycharm, no, but I was probably the kid who laughted at you.

48 Won Joon Choe February 6, 2007 at 3:48 am

Ggoma Chief,

I’d have to agree with you. And even the content of “Jumong” itself isn’t really that anti-Chinese.

On the same token, it amazes me that both “Yeon Gaesomun” and “Dae Joyoung” have flown underneath the Chinese nationalist radar, given the historical distortions there are far more serious, and both dramas (esp. “Yeon Gaesomun”) explicitly claim to be offering a true, albeit revisionist, history.

49 pawikirogi February 6, 2007 at 5:36 am

‘Those aren’t attempts to steal Korea’s history. It’s more serious than that. They are stage for the annexion of North Korea before it collapses and the eventual invasion of South Korea.’

wow! china is sure going to do a lot of invading. first, they’re going to invade taiwan. then, they’re going to invade north korea. after that, they’ll invade the south. when they’re done with that, they’ll move on to invade mongolia and vietnam.

‘going to invade north korea.’

america vs iraq
russia vs afghanistan
israel vs hizbollah
america vs vietnam

50 ●~* February 6, 2007 at 6:43 am

Chinese bachelor bombs are finally expoding. Pop! Pop! Pop!!

http://www.iht.com/articles/20.....degner.php

51 ggoma chief February 6, 2007 at 6:48 am

Its funny how this whole Chinese overreaction is really gonna buoy the attention and viewings these ‘anti-Chinese’ dramas will receive.
Similarly how the Japanese nation turn towards right as frenzy Koreans protest over dokdo, perhaps the Koreans will turn more firmly right (especially foreign policy wise) thanks to the overreactions of rabid Chinese nationalists. That is, of course, if these dramas can raise enough attention, and convince Koreans protestors to move from the dokdo issue (a really useless topic to protest over, as it is practically Korean territory) to Northeast Proj/Mt. Baekdu. If these drama writers can make the stubborn Korean netizens understand that China IS indeed a far greator threat to them than post-imperial Japan ever was, then they are doing a great favor to their country.

52 ●~* February 6, 2007 at 7:01 am

Japanese are making quarrels bigger by disguising Korean or Chinese, as you see at Jacky Peng’s blog, http://www.jackypeng.com/blog/.....-textbook/ . So, this on-line war may be a fake one.
Don’t be deceived.
Japan is demanding 釣魚台 to China, too. All are Japan’s. :(

53 Sonagi February 6, 2007 at 7:08 am

Blame nutty Korean nationalists Oh Jaesung and Lim Taegyu. Given the the uproar they caused amongst the Chinese, I can see why Koreans might feel more comfortable pinning this one on Japan.

54 ●~* February 6, 2007 at 7:18 am

소나기씨에게,
재밌잖아요. :(

실질적으로 권력의 상부에 있는 사람들에게는 이러한 일이 즐겁지만은 않아요.
내부적으로 권력 다툼이 없을 수가 없고,
이웃한 나라는 만약의 경우에 좋은 도피처가 될 수 있기 때문이죠.
이웃한 건 아니지만, 칠레의 대통령이었던 후지모리 의 경우를 보죠.
http://www.voanews.com/Korean/.....-voa10.cfm

But, who’s Oh Jaesung and Lim Taegyu ?

55 SomeguyinKorea February 6, 2007 at 7:58 am

pawikirogi,

I wouldn’t let it past the Chinese. They’ve invaded Tibet, after all.

56 SomeguyinKorea February 6, 2007 at 8:01 am

●~*,

The ‘quarrel’ got bigger the moment those Korean girls decided to display their lack of maturity to the world. Japan had nothing to do with it.

57 Sonagi February 6, 2007 at 8:20 am

Who’s Oh Jae-sung? Read about him here: http://news.naver.com/news/rea.....enu_id=117

If the link doesn’t work, use Naver to search for “오재성 국사” and look under 최신뉴스.

And read about Professor Lim’s book here: http://news.naver.com/news/rea.....enu_id=102

If the link doesn’t work, Naver “상하이는 한국땅”

No Japanese conspiracy here.

58 wiesunja February 6, 2007 at 8:48 am

SomeguyinKorea

Japan had nothing to do with it.

No way! It’s impossible…as a Korean, I must make a connection to Japan no matter what! Japan has everything to do with it!

- Why does my Hyundai car sucks? It’s Japan’s fault!
- Why do westerners laugh at Koreans? It’s Japan’s fault!
- Why did Koreans look so stupid when we threatened to bomb the Swiss embassy after we lost the World Cup game to them? – It’s all because of Japan! Waaaaa!

Koreans are entertaining to watch…that much is true.

59 snow February 6, 2007 at 12:47 pm

“If these drama writers can make the stubborn Korean netizens understand that China IS indeed a far greator threat to them than post-imperial Japan ever was, then they are doing a great favor to their country.”

Ggomma chief, spot on comment.

For the most part, the Japanese don’t really care much about Korea (similar to Americans and Canada) and in fact, in many ways even admire the place and its influence on Japan (yes, Japanese people readily admit that the Koreans had a lot of influence on Japan in the past-actually China through Korea). Present day Japan is not an enemy. The Chinese are the ones not to be trusted.

60 ggoma chief February 6, 2007 at 1:20 pm

@wiesunja
“Koreans are entertaining to watch…that much is true.”

unecessary racial comment. Every culture has its own quirks and vices.

@snow:
yeah, i remember when I was in gradeschool in Korea, the scenario that Japan could remilitarize and one day prey on Korea again was tangibly real. Of course in those days, there wasnt a rapidly growing superpower-to-be china. But now there is, and leftist Koreans need to realize it :(

61 wjk February 6, 2007 at 1:38 pm

“학자들을 곤혹스럽게 하는 것은 백제의 요서영유에 대한 기록은 남조계 사서에만 전해지고 당사국인 백제와 북조의 사료에는 전혀 없다는 것이다. 백제가 중국 본토에 위치하고 있었다면 당시의 동북아시아사상 중요한 사건임에도 불구하고 그 내용이 당사국인 북조계 사서에는 나타나지 않고 남조계의 사서에만 기록되어 있다는 것은 남조와 북조에서의 인식이 달랐기 때문으로 판단된다. 문제는 백제의 사료에도 기록되어 있지 않다는 점이다. 물론 『삼국유사』, 『삼국사기』가 워낙 후대에 저술된 것이므로 요서영유(설)에 대해 일연과 김부식이 여러 가지 이유로 누락했을 가능성도 생각해 볼 수 있다.”

http://news.naver.com/news/rea.....enu_id=117

From Sonagi’s link.

All we know is that Shilla forces wrote about Korean history during the middle of the Koryo period, when it had already made up its mind to keep Korea a subject to whoever ruled China. Tang, Song, etc. Hundreds of years after the actual events took place.

And we know that no historical records of Koguryo, Balhae, or Baekjae exist. Probably destroyed by Shilla forces. This strengthens the Chinese claim, ironically.

What is interesting is that Chinese records from a time when China was divided differ on Korean influence on China. Why? Why do Chinese records show things on its books, when it doesn’t show up Korean books, which were written to cater to unified Chinese Empire’s tastes?

So, the truth is unknown and nobody knows for sure. I don’t even know which historical texts the Chinese of the PRC consider valid and invalid in 2007.

Sonagi, don’t be so quick to suggest that Korean historians are bull shiting and deserving of backlash and shit coming back to their faces, when no one knows for sure. Part of being an academic is to offer up new insights and discover new things.

62 wjk February 6, 2007 at 1:41 pm

I mean no historical records on Koguryo and Baekjae exist that were written by Koguryo or Baekjae. Maybe some remarks and engravings on tombs, but that’s it.

And the Chinese won’t let South Korean archys enter and examine even these tomb writings. Why? Fearful of what?

63 wjk February 6, 2007 at 1:42 pm

similarly, the Koreans claim that the Japanese won’t let any examination of DNA or tomb material from Tenno tombs in Japan, but that’s another matter.

64 wjk February 6, 2007 at 1:47 pm

it’s okay for some scientist to compare DNA samples from Europe, southern Africa and India and conclude that some Indians of today migrated from Africa and Europe, but it’s not okay to check the same on past Japanese Emperors.

65 wjk February 6, 2007 at 1:50 pm

the fact that non Han Chinese people occupied Han China territory for hundreds of years here and there is a truth that can’t be hidden.

Why all the fuss, when they say Koreans did it here and there, too?

Is it because most or all of those other recognized tribes got sinicized and absorbed to the Han Chinese in 2007, whereas Korea is still and independent country with its own language and borders. I think the latter is the reason why.

66 wjk February 6, 2007 at 1:52 pm

add Balhae to the list. Just a lot of unknowns and Korean archys are not allowed to study even the tomb writings. They’re just supposed to take the PRC’s official interpretation.

67 wjk February 6, 2007 at 1:55 pm

i don’t see the Turkish barring Europeans from digging up Troy and coming to new theories. Why do the Chinese bar Koreans from digging up places and discovering things?

68 shakuhachi February 6, 2007 at 1:55 pm

The Koreans always claim something was either destroyed or hidden when they have no proof for something. It is always the same mantra for everything, from ancient history, to dokdo, to comfort women. Someone needs to tell Koreans about the boy that cried wolf.

69 wjk February 6, 2007 at 2:00 pm

then let the Koreans explore. DNA samples can be obtained from dead kings. Digging stuff can bring up new knowledge. People thought Homer was lying or was hallucinating when he described the Trojan War. After digging, now the established theory is that it was true.

“Always” and “no proof” ? Typical of you.

70 SomeguyinKorea February 6, 2007 at 5:29 pm

wjk,

How do you figure most Koreans would react if some Chinese or Japanese scientists would come to Korea to inspect/desecrate the tombs of Korean kings?

71 wjk February 6, 2007 at 6:02 pm

I would be fine with it. More mysteries revealed and more uncertainties resolved. Can’t say what most Koreans would do or say, but I suspect something negative.

72 SomeguyinKorea February 6, 2007 at 8:25 pm

It was a rhetorical question.

73 slim February 6, 2007 at 10:08 pm

Again, wjk, writing 6-7 comments in a row is simply bad manners. It bothers me even though I tend to skip over your comments and I can’t imagine I’m alone here.

74 Robert Koehler February 6, 2007 at 10:33 pm

Actually, wjk, if you’d be so kind, please put what you need to say in one or two comments rather than five or more.

75 railwaycharm February 6, 2007 at 11:16 pm

Marmot… it is a lost cause. You can’t teach a pig to dance.

76 wjk February 7, 2007 at 1:10 am

they don’t speak to me all at once.

77 wjk February 7, 2007 at 1:15 am

I’ll try, though, and respect everyone’s wishes.

Railway, a pig doesn’t need to dance.

78 ●~* February 7, 2007 at 1:37 am

Though the pig couldn’t learn how to dance, the pig with full stonmach has risen to Renaissance, of course, including dance art. Bulging-bellied Dogbertt helped the pig, you know.

79 SomeguyinKorea February 7, 2007 at 10:35 am

“Though the pig couldn’t learn how to dance, the pig with full stonmach has risen to Renaissance, of course, including dance art. Bulging-bellied Dogbertt helped the pig, you know.”

Well, that’s a tad cryptic. It reads like the English subtitles of a Korean TV drama on Arirang.

80 babarian February 7, 2007 at 3:10 pm

“Again, wjk, writing 6-7 comments in a row is simply bad manners. It bothers me even though I tend to skip over your comments and I can’t imagine I’m alone here.”

Indeed.

81 ●~* February 7, 2007 at 8:30 pm

Mr. SomeguyinKorea,
Study liberal arts more to decode me.
It’s because of your lack of liberal arts knowledge, I gues.
Maybe, it’ll be corect.

82 The Goat February 7, 2007 at 9:25 pm

Liberal arts are about as useful as a c**k flavored lollipop.

(somewhat modified movie quote).

83 Zonath February 8, 2007 at 1:16 am

Pepe,

I was an English major in undergrad (which is about as liberal-artsy as you can get without being a philosophy major), and even I didn’t understand what the heck you were saying.

84 Sonagi February 8, 2007 at 1:30 am

@●~*

“And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.

And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast;

and they worshiped the beast, saying, ‘Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?’

There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. “

85 ●~* February 8, 2007 at 3:23 am

To Zonath,

I mean, you know, starving-to-death Socrates cannot have time to learn how to dance, whether it’s needed or not. It’s impossible at the start for the Socrates. He endlessly cried, gruntled at his life time while begging for his stomach.
And his rich disciples compiled Apologia Sōkratous, Symposiomet et al after his death.
But, the pig whose stomach is full have time, money, etc, so the pig brought about Renaissance.

86 SomeguyinKorea February 8, 2007 at 9:54 am

●~*,

Lack of knowledge of liberal arts? Please, don’t make such assumptions. I’m a musician and an avid reader. Heck, I even majored in linguistics in grad school…and I still couldn’t decode what you were trying to say. Just stop using Naver to translate your original Korean text to English and you’ll be in the right direction.

87 SomeguyinKorea February 8, 2007 at 10:10 am

●~*,

By the way, took me a while to remember, but everyone who’s taken freshman philosophy at university probably knows about Socrates and the pig (”Which are you, a starving Socrates or a happy pig?”, right?)

PS. ” It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, are a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question. The other party to the comparison knows both sides.” (John Stuart Mill, Utilitarianism)

Question is, can anyone else truly know how a pig, or a fool, feels?

88 Zhang Fei February 8, 2007 at 10:31 am

SGIK: How do you figure most Koreans would react if some Chinese or Japanese scientists would come to Korea to inspect/desecrate the tombs of Korean kings?

I’m not sure this is a good analogy. All the Koreans need is a single hair from the skeletal remains. They don’t need to enter the tombs.

cm: The sexism in the photoshopped images – the body part drawings and calling the girls prostitutes – is crude and tasteless. Otherwise, one cannot fault the Chinese for mocking the childish displays of Korean nationalism. Keep in mind that these images were created by netizens not by the government or any state-owned media organization. It’s called “blowback,” pawi. Childish Korean nationalism fuels Chinese scorn.

Let me suggest that unfurling a territorial claim during a sports event isn’t real professional, but it’s not at the level of calling the people who did it loose women, lesbian orgiasts and American lapdogs (which is another one of those weird displays of Chinese logic, where standing for your own rights is evidence of subservience to someone else – only subservience to the Chinese state is politically-correct). I am glad that Chinese culture has gone through 5,000 years of development. Given the examples I’ve read here, I’d hate to have to hear what these Chinese netizens had to say without the benefit of these thousands of years of cultural refinement.

89 ●~* February 9, 2007 at 12:39 am

Gosh!
I read Thomas Jefferson, Goethe(in English), Aesop’s fable and Paradox Aesop Up-to-date. I read many and many, and I think I SAVORed them.
But why at this time do I have difficulty in communicating with some?
I’ll go to talk with my lover Goethe. kkkkkkkkkk

90 virtual wonderer February 10, 2007 at 4:44 am

WJK, i don’t understand you. There is no reason to partake in the circle jerkin’ goin on here. If you say anything that smells of “defending” Korea, slim or someguy or sonagi or dogbert or some such guy will sooner or later accuse you of being Pawigirogi’s alter ego.

I’ve given up on reasoning here a long time ago. To be honest, Shaku is not the complete imbecile that i remember him to be 5 years ago, so I guess we all learn something given time.

91 Zonath February 10, 2007 at 4:55 am

But why at this time do I have difficulty in communicating with some?

Because you’re spending too much time trying to understand long-dead authors, and not nearly enough time with the hip youth of today? I’m pretty sure that if Goethe or Thomas Jefferson were to come back to life and jump on the Internet of today, people would rag on them for being just a bit obtuse as far as their usage of their respective languages goes. ;)

Remember: It’s all well and good to harp on obscure references and in-jokes in your writing, but if you actually want people to bother with reading your stuff you might want to lay off the pig and Aristotle references. ;)

92 slim February 10, 2007 at 7:01 am

“I’ve given up on reasoning here a long time ago.”

Sorry I didn’t notice the change and kept reading.

That’s a joke, but more reasoning would be a good thing on the world wide web in general and the Korean part of it in particular.

Accuracy requires a disclaimer that neither I nor Sonagi (not sure about the others) lumps anyone with pawi, which would be a cruel and slanderous act. The record will show that I have argued against confusing Shin Jong-il (an earlier version of pawi) with Sugar Shin and quite recently admonished those who would associate bluejives with the execrable pawi. If what pawi does counts as “defending Korea,” everyone who loves that country should demand he be banned forthwith. (Hell, I’m a fellow American and I’m ashamed over what that “child left behind” says about the US educational system.) I don’t read wjk’s comments as a rule and my beef with him was the annoying habit of multiple repeat posts.

As to the topic at hand (what was it again?): While I believe life is too short to watch Korean TV dramas unless it is for language study, I’d warn Koreans not to fuck with China too much or they will (re)learn what an actual imperialist country is all about.

93 cydevil February 23, 2007 at 11:49 am

What it is important for Koreans to realize is that China is an actual “imperialist” country, as opposed to Japan that renounced imperialism upon their defeat to the Allies. I wholeheartedly agree with ggoma chief that Koreans are too concerned with Japan, but as China continues to fuck with us, nationalistic animosity will gradually shift from Japan to China, which is already the case for threat perception. However, remilitarization and rerise of nationalism in Japan is yet a variable that may change things to come.

94 joe February 21, 2008 at 2:35 pm

We have alot of ESL teachers talking shit here. China is a threat if the US stops giving a shit. China threatens the US’ status as superpower. The moment China goes militaristic the US will probably bomb them back to the ching chong dynasty.

95 joe February 21, 2008 at 2:41 pm

I dont know who’s on who’s side here, but lets be certain of one thing. China is nowhere near a threat. When China is, you can expect the US military right at China’s doorstep.

Dont overblow the threat of China.

As for past mistakes militarily speaking, ie the Japanese, they are due to US weaponry making way into Japan first. They decided to bite the hand that feeds them and lost everything.

96 joe February 21, 2008 at 2:47 pm

And, NO there will never be a militarization of Japan.

The Jews in America HATE Japan for obvious reasons. They would never let that happen seeing how they control US foreign policy.

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