The GI who “got his ass beat by the KNP” (or so he claims to be—some think otherwise) when he paid a visit to the police station in Itaewon to protest the arrest of his battle buddies speaks in the comment section, and he’s not a happy camper.
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24 Comments
So — do you think he got what he deserved, M? I detect a certain amount of “social Darwinism” in the attitudes of many previous commentors (ie, along the lines of “he should have known better, if he raised his hand to the cops when they tried to shove him out it’s his fault”, etc etc).
It sounds like he wasn’t the first to initiate physical contact, nor did he have any sort of weapon in hand; in which case his Rodney King parallel is an apt one. As I recall that videotape was played endlessly, in fact somebody in the US Congress insisted on getting up and verbally recreating into the Congr Record (and for the watching CSpan cameras) all the blows (”57″(?)”bams”, timed at the exact intervals).
So will any commentors here (who might have been outraged by RK) nevertheless make this chap a target for further scorn/derision (let’s see, what was the phrase used in a very recent thread — the ready and willing enlistment of “ghetto thugs?”). Especially since he’s not a particularly good writer, and inevitably (ie, like most of us humans) a certain amount of “shift-the-blame” creeps into his self defense (ie, stuff was “beamed into his head..”).
If in fact there were one or more police videotapes of what happened to him, and they’ve become suddenly “nonexistent, not to mention nonavailable when they were existent” — well, to me, that seems like the type of thing that ought to draw some at least a little official “eyebrow-raising” from Cdr USFK and the ambassador. Though again, of course, I predict a standard reaction here (a shrug, followed by “what did you expect?)”
I’ll have to recheck the reg, but I’m pretty sure a chapter 14 for misconduct is an administrative discharge (not a “punitive” discharge done as a result of a court-martial). I’m interested if this incident is the only reason for the “14″; such an action is not automatic, it has to be initated by a commander at some level, normally the company.
If he’s being “chaptered” due to this being the capstone of an accumulation of previous minor disciplinary actions, then it will be difficult for me to defend him any further; still, he does sound like the kind of guy you might want to have around, if it’s a question of stopping an advancing squad of Nork’s intent on storming your apartment in Seoul and killing everyone therein.
Maybe he should change his “handle” from “kriegersoldat” (an interesting choice, wonder if it was his own) to “Tommy”.
I recommend, M, that you email him (he provided his “dot mil” gi email address) and invite him to comment further here; I’d be interested in his “first-hand” version of how things are progressing with his case. I’d also be interested in what his company level-chain of command has to say, though if he’s got an administrative discharge pending, he has a right to the assistance of JAG counsel and a due process hearing before a formal board. In which case, both common sense and legality will constrain his c/c from commenting publicly.
“….they are my fellow comrades and I will look out for them, that is how we are trained.”
“I am taught how to act and defend my self by the Military”
Perhaps I am wrong, but doesn’t this training apply to the battlefield, and not in the streets of Seoul. If this guy (and others like him) take this attitude to civilian life then he is no longer protecting Korea.
What upsets me most of all, is that I (an American) defend these GIs against university students all the goddamn time. And this guy comes along, and what does he do? He makes a liar out of me. Don’t come here looking for sympathy.
Well, there’s the reaction I predicted.
“…doesn’t this training apply to the battlefield, and not in the streets of Seoul…”
Well, if he tried to kill a policeman with his bare hands, or went after one with a knife, I guess he indeed doesn’t deserve any sympathy.
If however he was truly just trying to stay with his buddies (even though he should have left), and shoved back (after being shoved) in a fit of drunken anger, he certainly didn’t deserve to be beaten within an inch of his life.
If university students of your acquaintance are eager to throw each and every incident involving a US GI in your face, tell them that as far as an increasing number of Americans are concerned, the best solution is for our US troops to be pulled out of ROK.
I’m sure they will agree. Make sure you then tell them I look forward to the happy day when the youth of ROK can man their own military, protect their own country, and set an example of disciplined military behavior that will astonish the world.
Mandatory disclaimer: The following is not legal advice. Kriegsoldat, go to TDS, get a lawyer and listen to his/her advice (and the video) very carefully. The first advice would most likely be, “Stop incriminating yourself in the Marmot’s comments, unless you want to hear the prosecutor reading them back to you at an O.T.H. board hearing.”
I do not believe you deserved what you got. You and your family have my personal sympathy for how things went down. I support you, if not all of your conduct, which is not objectively more stupid than things I’ve done myself at a younger age. IED’s weren’t going off when I signed up, so in that sense, I’m not fit to lace your boots. We owe you our thanks for signing on the dotted line, but all in all, I wish you guys would have invested in a Nintendo Wii and spent the evening playing “Legend of Zelda.” And dude, you’re married and have a family. I’ll tell you what your platoon sergeant and your big brother should have: you’ve got no business being on that hill if you have a family. That’s no place to find wholesome entertainment. Plenty of married guys suck up their tours and send their paychecks home, although you never hear about them unless you’re in their platoon, barracks room, or Bible study group.
In response to Paul H and to any USFK personnel who read this, from the best friend you never met: the “right” to “protest” the arrest of one’s battle buddies no doubt depends on one’s chosen method of protest. I think the extent of a US soldier’s “rights” in Korea ought to be pretty damn obvious by the time you draw your TA-50. To anyone else who confronts a similar situation, a call to your CO or 1SG through the CQ desk makes a whole lot more sense. Here’s an even better idea: stay the fuck on post unless it’s daylight and you’re with friends. If you’re at Camp Colbern or suchlike, take the bus.
While I fully realize that most KNP’s couldn’t find their own asses with GPS, they are the lawful civil authorities of the Republic of Korea, and it’s just tough shit if you disagree with them. I’ve also had clients get beaten by KNPs, or had guns put to their heads. I encourage you to complain to your congressman: seriously, I do, because it will force the command to demand some answers. Eventually, they may get a few. When you write that letter, I hope you’ll also be honest about your own role in that situation. But in this case, presuming that any police misconduct all follows the exercise of this non-existent “right” to “protest,” it’s a serious issue, but a separate one.
Paul H: Per AR 635-200, Chapter 14 discharges are administrative, not punitive. Only a court-martial can adjudge a punitive discharge. The chapter in question here is most likely 14-12c for “commission of a serious offense.” It’s generally an honorable or general discharge, but it can be an OTH (other than honorable) if there’s a board and it votes to give it to you. The Chapter 14-12c is often served with a side order of Article 15, thus forming the dreaded “Charticle 29.”
In all sincerity: good luck to you, soldier.
Yes, I’m well familiar with the general outline of AR 635-200, one of those reg numbers that every company grade officer finds he commits to memory. I put in the qualifier because I insist on trying to be accurate in my assertions; I haven’t had occasion to look at a copy in many years, the reg gets revised/rewritten periodically, and downloading a pdf on my dial up modem seems to be very slow lately (if it doesn’t “hang up” completely).
If this incident forms the only basis for the “chapter”, then this guy indeed ought to get a lawyer and fight it. He may not be successful; after all, the command court-martialed the two vehicle crewmen in the AVLB accident (though they were eventually acquitted).
I of course concur with the general tone of your advice to the average GI resident in Korea. However –
since these “incidents” happen periodically, why do you suppose the US generals haven’t just put everything “off-post” “off-limits” for the troops, after all this time? (A rhetorical question on my part; I think I know the answer, but perhaps others will care to comment on their own particular perception of the answer).
Because it’s wrong to punish the majority, who know how to behave like adults, because a few can’t. Maybe Itaewon is a culture that dates back to another Army that existed post-Vietnam, and when we couldn’t afford to discipline people or deprive them of purient fun. For a long list of reasons on which we can agree, that time has passed, although the Cowboy Sign on the Nashville Club and the Asia-mod neon in front of the King Club remain as the markings of that anachronism.
Fact is as such: most off-post misconduct is caused by frequent flyers who should be restricted to post and (in many cases) send to ASAP to dry out.
OK, Paul H., I’ll take the bait.
With the talk of “battle buddies” and what must be done for them, can we conclude that that night there was a “Battle of the U.N. Club”? I agree with he who wrote:
Frankly, I am worried that the hundreds of thousands of soldiers returning to the U.S. from Iraq will bring home with them the attitude that they are above civilian authority.
I think people need to drop the arguement about “battle buddies” personally i dont think it holds any water.
Battle buddy is just the term the military use, they have come up with that phrase to remind people to look after your friends wherever you are.
I would like to think that i would help out a friend in that situation and would like to think that they would do the same for me. I am not in the military so therefore i cannot be classed a “Battle buddy”.
Personally i feel that the issue here is that he made a bad decision in going into the Police Station, whilst drunk, and probably agitated at what had happened. This in turn became a confrontation, which in his state of mind at the time he probably didnt react to in a way which enabled him / or others to diffuse the situation in a rational manner.
Thirsty: “Personally i feel that the issue here is that he made a bad decision in going into the Police Station, whilst drunk, and probably agitated at what had happened. This in turn became a confrontation, which in his state of mind at the time he probably didnt react to in a way which enabled him / or others to diffuse the situation in a rational manner.”
I fully agree with this. But this wasn’t merely a case of “beer balls”. The “battle buddy” training (as he mentions several times) is EXACTLY what drove him, drunk, to barge into a police station. He said it, not me.
i wonder if you would have ’stood with your buddies’ if you were in the states. i wonder if you would have had the smarts not to enter a police station drunk. i wonder if you would have had the smarts not to become hostile to those who have a reputation for having a short fuse. something tells me you would have had those smarts. you felt emboldened because they were the korean police. you felt you could get away with it. you were wrong. now, you must pay. but not for the actions of the knp, but for the actions and events that you yourself brought about.
btw, here’s your whopper:
‘if somebody there had spoken english, this wouldn’t have happened.’ the accused
first, let’s get the real impact of this statement by having a latino say this here in the us:
‘if the police had spoken spanish, this wouldn’t have happened.’
now, let’s change your sentence so that it’s correct:
‘if i had spoken korean in korea with koreans, this would not have happened.’
do you see my point?
I Actually think that those of you who feel this guy trying to look out for his friends was the problem…call it battle buddy, wingman, best mates or whatever would probably not be the best people to call friends, you would probably just high tail it out of there and leave your “friends” to deal with it themselves.
In the context of a fun and safe night out a friend is…
..someone who puts you in a taxi when you are too drunk.
..tells you the woman you are talking only looks pretty because you have been drinking too much
..makes sure nobody steals, or worse, spikes your drink if you are not around
…and trys to make sure you are ok, whatever the incident.
His actions were not ideal, and where a result of the fact he had been drinking BUT i would rather he was out drinking with me than some of you guys going from the responses on here.
Ot to draw teachers into this!! If this incident involved teachers we wouldnt mention battle buddies but just say the guy was looking out for his friends, but he was drunk and handled the situation badly.
The only people I have to help me in my chain of command are a SGT.K and a SGT D I feel that the Army has washed their hands with me of one thing I have done wrong here. I understand the issues with GI’S are getting worse every weekend, the only thing I want it for the public to listen to what happened. The Korean Police will protect each other just as we soldiers will, but I am in their country and what they say goes. I will not win I admitted what I did was wrong, I apologized to the Korean police and they accepted. I will not lie to you I did go into the police station as I said drunk and protesting about what happened. No need to use force for a verbal protest. The police were all ready amped up from the UN fight and I feel they might have lost patience with the situation. And as for interfering with an arrest they were all ready in hand cuffs and detained. I have too many positive monthly counseling statements from my chain of command to be labeled as a criminal by anyone. The police officer left with a scratch on his leg, they let the issue go; now the Government is on the case. I have court on the 23 of Feb I was suppose to PCS on the 18th I am upset about having to stay here for longer. Now since I am staying here I will report the case to the National Human Rights of Commission of Korea. Do you think I will win probably not but I will do what I can to defend my self? What makes my case so special what about people cracking each other with beer bottles, the rapes and taxi problems? Also the robberies and vandalism, It will never go away Let the ROK defend it’s self and we will see what happens? Wish those tapes were around I did act like a fool and call them shit bags, but it is no need to get physical over.
# 10 Lets change that around one more time ” If I had understood Korean” I was wrong, thats it. Now I am fucked. End of issue. I got a beat down and I will be prosecuted by the Korean Government and also by the US Government. By the way who are you people?
kriegersoldat,
Perhaps you are fucked, but why are you potentially passing Viagra to the folks who are fucking you by commenting about the incident here?
I would recommend that you follow Joshua’s advice in comment #4 and keep quiet until you have talked with a lawyer.
Good luck.
(As for me, am one of those expat English teachers.)
pawikirogi (#10),
So are you now on record as saying that police departments in the States should not have to worry about having Spanish-speaking officers?
kriegersoldat,
I see you admit that you set in motion the events that led you to this state of affairs (earlier you claimed the the cops were out to get a GI). That is a good start. What impressed me about that guy that was charged with raping the 67 year old woman was how he apologized for hurting the woman, her family, the Army and America’s reputation. I am no lawyer, but in my experience, apologizing for the harm done to others goes a lot further in Korea than complaining about the harm done to one’s own self.
Kriegersoldat,
I think as some have already mentioned, silence is golden at this juncture. I hope this misadventure does not mortally wound your chances in life. It is a sad happenstance no matter who is right or wrong. Keep your cards close to your chest and ask family to spring for a good lawyer.
Dogbertt, #7:
There’s no “bait”; Joshua answered the question. I haven’t been to Korea so I don’t know the notorious “Itaewon”, though I recognize the name from reading it many times on this and a few other Korean blogs.
Sometimes even in connection with incidents NOT involving US GI’s? Maybe that’s just my faulty memory, like I said I’ve never been to Korea.
“…Frankly, I am worried that the hundreds of thousands of soldiers returning to the U.S. from Iraq will bring home with them the attitude that they are above civilian authority…”
Huh? Thousands of young Americans have an “attitude” towards civilian authority already — but usually, they are ones who’ve never joined the military or left the country.
Do you personally know any Iraq vets? Your “worry” certainly doesn’t jive with the attitudes of the ones I’ve met, around the Army and USAF bases in San Antonio, also elsewhere in the country where I have had occasion to travel.
Are you going by some old stereotype of crazed Vietnam vets? To the extent that was ever even a “true” one (I think serious stats won’t bear it out either).
It is true that the US Army was seriously degraded in discipline in the latter stage of the Vietnam war. The “replacement by individual” personnel assignment procedure (still used for USFK) bears a lot of the blame for that, IMO; significantly, that’s not the way we’re doing business in Iraq/Afghanistan (battalions and brigades rotate in and out as units).
We still rotate troops into ROK for individual one year tours; I see where Cdr USFK in his 10 Jan news conference spent some time emphasizing how he wants to change that, by making all tours “accompanied” ones (so guys like Duprey can be accompanied by their families).
I concur this would be a big help (not that Cdr USFK needs my approval). Failing that, if it’s necessary to station US troops in ROK, in the future they should rotate in as battalions/brigades, yearly for a month or so (along the lines of Exercise “Team Spirit”).
To train with ROK for a while and then return back to Hawaii or CONUS to be with their families.
Lets just say things happen for a reason. I said I was sorry for what happened directly to the police and the Prosecutor and I am. I’m sure they are too. Life continues and goes on. It’s how you bounce back from the hard ship not how you fight it. I am not a criminal so stop treating me like one. Army Strong….
By the way I am commenting about the incident here because you all are Gossiping about me and I want my voice heard. I all ready said I was guilty because I know I can’t win and I should have never hit a police officer even thought I stand behind my reason of defense I just want to get back home to my Family So leave me a lone and let me just live my life.
kriegersoldat,
I understand that you want to defend your name. However, I would still advise against it.
When we talk about what happened that night, it is gossip.
When you talk about what happened that night, it is evidence.
kriegersoldat,
I’m a lawyer — although not your lawyer — and I have to second the advice you’re getting right now from joshua (also not your lawyer, but a former JAG) and other posters. STOP POSTING HERE AND ELSEWHERE! Stop talking to people in the barracks! To the extent your statements may credibly be attributed to you they become evidence. You have the right to remain silent — use it!
You’re in real fight, soldier. When you’re getting mauled by a bear, your best chance of survival is not to fight back. It’s to play dead: Curl up in a fetal position, protect your important bits, and wait for the bear to finish with you. (The best course, of course, is to avoid the bear altogether — but it’s too late for that once you’re under attack.)
For the love of God, and your own sake, ZIP IT and seek counsel from Trial Defense Service or a private lawyer. To my way of thinking, private lawyer is a waste (and I’m one of the private lawyers) — TDS counsel take great pride in fighting for their clients’ rights and contrary to your expectations, TDS counsel have no fear of reprisals from “the system”. Servicemembers often don’t believe it, but it’s 100% — maybe 110% — true; this is because we lawyers have employment possibilities Military judge advocates, when assigned as defense counsel, are rewarded for sticking it to the command. “A Few Good Men” is a joke in many respects, but it accurately portrays the commitment military defense lawyers have to their clients. So don’t waste your money. Joshua, that’s right, isn’t it?
how do you know I am even who I say I am??
You aren’t who you say you are. That’s why I haven’t said anything.
Care to expand on that, Mark?
Kriegsoldat: I urge you to listen to Mr. B. Carr and get yourself a free military lawyer, if you have not yet done so. Right now you feel all alone and discouraged, and it sounds like you may decide just to accept whatever happens.
You may have ultimately no choice but to accept whatever your chain of command decides, but I recommend you use all legal methods to “fight” the chapter 14 administrative discharge. My problem is I’m not a lawyer and I don’t have the reg (AR-635-200, Chapter 14) in front of me; however, it’s on-line, plus the JAG will have a paper copy you can sit down and read.
It may cost you financially, not in terms of legal fees but in terms of having to pay a fine to the ROK court. I don’t have any idea if you can afford it or not; I take it you have a wife back home, don’t know about any kids.
If all you did was push back, or take a swing at a cop after they pushed you, without using a weapon of any sort — and your military record is otherwise clear of prior offenses — I (emphasis on “I”) don’t think you deserve to be administratively chaptered out. However that’s just one man’s opinion; I have some experience with this type of thing as a former company commander, but from 20 years ago.
Your major serious problem is that if the Korean courts put you in jail for any length of time, that’s “bad time” for which you are not eligible to be paid, also (at the Army’s option I think) it gets tacked on to the end of your current enlistment obligation. Most of the time, in this situation (ie a soldier in civilian jail for a civilian offense) this “tacking-on” doesn’t happen, because the military just goes ahead with an administrative discharge.
So with a family you can find yourself in a real financial bind (no pay coming in). Unless you have some savings. Or maybe your wife is working and can carry the load, or maybe others in your family can help out.
However, if you can use your accumulated leave time to serve any “short” Korean jail sentence, the time won’t be counted as “bad time” (ie you go on leave to serve any short-term jail sentence, and you still get paid as normal during leave). Depends on whether you have any accumulated or not; I don’t know if the chain of command will oreven can allow you “advanced” leave to do this, don’t recall if it’s allowed by the leave reg, there are normal limits on how much “in the hole” you can go on leave.
So the problem with this is that anything much more than 60 days is not practical, depending upon how much leave time you have accumulated at this point, and how much time you have left in your current “hitch”; there are fairly strict regulatory limits put on how much “advance” leave you can take, especially if the chain of command initiates a “bar to re-enlistment” for you.
The vast majority of the time soldiers in this kind of serious trouble just say “the hell with it” and accept whatever happens. My instinctive advice is that if you’re a “good soldier” except for this incident, try to pay any fine to the Korean court, ask the court to forego any jail time, or at least keep it only to a very short period of a few weeks. Use your leave to serve it (if you can), then fight the chapter and try to serve out at least the remaining time on your enlistment and get a “normal” honorable discharge.
If you think you might want to do what I advise, sit down and talk it over first with some senior NCO’s that you trust. Preferably your platoon sergeant and first sergeant, if they’re not sympathetic consider asking to see the Bn or Bde Sergeant Major.
It may not seem this way now, but I think that in 10 or 20 years you’ll regret it, if you just allow the Army to chapter you out, especially if you get a general or OTH. Though your chances for re-enlistment may be gone, depending on how much time you have left in your current enlistment and how this comes out in terms of any jail time served.
And of course maybe you were planning on getting out anyway at the end of your enlistment, even before this happened.
If you decide you have to accept the chapter, I think you should at least go into a board hearing and fight for an honorable discharge. I don’t think you deserve an OTH or a general, assuming you have no prior offenses and your military record is a good one before this incident; again, though, that’s just one man’s opinion, one who doesn’t know you.
I’m impressed though that you came up on the board here and tried to defend yourself in a literate way, though as the others have said it may not be the best thing to do legally. Good luck.