Is the term gyopo offensive?
Personally, I think it’s a rather odd topic of discussion, but I’m tired of seeing the discussion about So Far from the Bamboo Grove hijacked, so if you want to debate this issue (and it seems some of you do), do it here, please.
59 Comments
Gyopos suck.
(Just kidding.)
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
No.
Kyopos of the variety for which H. Kim seems to want to make himself the spokesman obviously need their own Chrissie Hinds; they’re just so precious.
What does gyopo even mean? I’ve seen the debate about if it’s offensive or not many times, but only been able to guess at the meaning. Something like a Korean living abroad right?
Click the word “gyopo” in the first sentence of the OP to read a detailed definition.
First of all, this subject shouldn’t have come up for debate.
Second, I, as a Korean who has spent half his life overseas have been called “kyopo” several times, but I didn’t and don’t find the word offensive.
Heck even Han Ye Sul called herself “kyopo” during an interview on MBC.
Third, H. Kim sure has a huge chip on his shoulder to start a fiery and unnecessary debate regarding the word “kyopo”.
Agreed, but it was hijacking my other discussion, so it needed to go somewhere.
I’m offended by the term, but not for the reason H. Kim is.
To me, “gyopo” has always had a connotation that, no matter the citizenship, the “gyopo” should identify primarily as a Korean. Even if the “gyopo” is, like myself, born outside of Korea. My identity as an American comes far, far before my Korean one.
And the implication is offensive to me - I, for one, certainly do not want to be lumped with persons like Robert Kim or Michelle Wie’s father.
While I agree with this sentiment, I’m not sure if most non-Koreans and non-gyopos use the term “gyopo” with the thought that you are Koreans first and foremost, but rather as a word that makes it simple to talk about a group of people whose experience in Korea is distinct from our own; rather, if we say “overseas Korean” it seems to imply that your main nationality is Korean. We can’t use hyphenated names because “gyopos” come from a large number of countries. Saying “persons of Korean ancestry” is just too cumbersome to ever catch on. So what do you suggest?
But there is a need for a word such as gyopo for people living in korea who wish to discuss social issues related to Koreans, gyopos and other foreigners. Based on which category one belongs to, one will experience distinctly different treatment in Korean society.
For example, ORblog, who identifies as American, will still be viewed as Korean (more specifically, a gyopo) by his/her employer in Korea. In the English industry, this often means lower pay and an expectation that s/he will understand and accept Korean culture better than other foreigners.
교포 is not an offensive word, especially NOT along the lines of “n*gger.” It’s not more offensive than the word “expat” or “유학생.” As a Korean-American, and as a gyopo, I found it strange that anybody would find that word offensive. There is not an ounce of negative connotation with that word.
I wonder how long it will be before Koreans start really discriminating amongst themselves for the sake of political or racial purity, complete with little nicknames . . . or has this happened already.
Sometimes I must really check a calendar . . .
By the way Robert, this “snap” pop-up in the site is driving me crazy. I may have to turn off javascripting for the blog.
Hear, hear.
What H. Kim seems to say is that it was ok when other Korean types used 교포, but that it seems to bused in a denigrating or perjorative manner when used by non-Koreans… there’s absolutely nothing in the word in and of itself that can be garnered as being offensive… but in context, H. Kim might be right. Hell, I’ve even heard Korean-Koreans say ‘oh, you’re a _kyopo_’ as in ‘you’re not a _real_ Korean’ before. This swings both ways. Any word can be used in a negative manner given the right tone.
But while many of you were bashing H. Kim, I think you failed to recognize that your usage of 교포 could be received in a negative fashion merely because merely because racism is that subtle and not being on the receiving end of it makes you oblivious to it.
I think that gyopo is inherently neutral but as with many words, it can hold an offensive nuance given the proper context.
That is about all I have to say about that.
What is funny is that now some people will mistake ‘kyopo’ for an offensive word, and might try to use it along the lines that the word “nigger” is used as a racial slur against blacks.
“You kyopo!” LOL.
I live in Japan and the majority of Koreans born here use the Japanese term “Zainichi” to refer to themselves much more than kyopo. (It is the Japanese way of saying “chaeil” which is an abbreviation for the longer “Korean resident in Japan”). But kyopo is not considered offensive. Most Koreans born in Japan do not speak much Korean (unless they went to North Korean schools)and if you cannot pronounce Zainichi correctly, you probably are not one.
Hey, what ever happened to Mizar5?
Mizar5 has not been seen since Nora was exposed as Kushibo. I was never able to find any evidence connecting the two, so take that information as you will.
I bet Robert knows.
I had a passing thought last night that maybe H.Kim represents Kushibo’s latest attempt to return to to the K-blogosphere. Both come off as well-informed on Korea, obsessive about certain topics yet unable to deal with criticism and bizarrely “off” on some issues.
It should be American Korean not Korean American you piss ants.
The word “kyopo” is on the same lines as the word “Jew.”
A kyopo is a person of Korean descent living in another country and usually (but not always) being a naturalized citizen of that country. Kyopos like myself were born in the US. Whether I choose to id myself as a kyopo or not, I am one. I don’t know HOW many times I got asked growing up “Where are you from? No I mean originally.” It didn’t matter to them that I had been born in the South and knew no other language but English and couldn’t even use a pair of chopsticks.
A Jew is someone descended from the people that once made up the country of Judea (which once was the southern half of a united Israel under Kings David and Solomon before there was a split around 1000 BC, much like in Korea in 1945 AD). Like kyopos, Jews live in countries all around the world.
Jews have a negative stereotype of sticking to their own kind and being money-grubbing and so forth. But in actuality, in many European countries, they were forced to live in ghettos and pograms apart from mainstream society. And they were accused of not being loyal to their home countries in which they lived. Many Jews in America complain and say this accusation is not true. Many Jews, not too long ago in America’s history, were “closet Jews” (they never came out and said they were Jews and even changed their names to sound not so “Jewish”) like actors Kirk Douglas, William Shatner (actually a Canadian), Paul Newman, etc.
Unfortunately, kyopos don’t have this option because we don’t quite blend in with our Asian eyes and features, hence the question about where we REALLY came from.
Having grown up speaking English, using only a fork and a knife at dinner, putting up a Christmas tree in December, eating Turkey for Thanksgiving, playing baseball and football as a kid, and just overall living the all-American life doesn’t stop fellow Americans (be they white or black) from discriminating against me and wondering “where I’m from” and frowning if I happen to date a white or black girl. A passing white stranger might mutter to me, “Why don’t you go back where you came from?” to which I then have to make replies like “I’m from HERE, you redneck motherf*cker.” And then sometimes we even get in a fist fight. Usually, though, they’re too scared.
Then some of us kyopos happen to end up moving to big cities like New York, LA, or Washington, DC. Lo and behold! There are fellow Korean-Americans!! We find we are more comfortable in the company of other Korean-Americans because we hear less questions about “where we’re from” and we have similar family backgrounds, similar education, and similar career paths (mostly professional and white-collar). White people in the South where I grew up hung around each other. Black people did, too. Why can’t us yellow ones as well?
But every so often, you run into folks of non-Korean descent who know what the word “kyopo” means and who throw out terms in a derisive manner like “kyopo boy.” Now if the word “kyopo” is along the same lines as another word, which in an of itself is not offensive, like “Jew”, and the word “Jew boy” from a non-Jew is considered offensive and even racist….what does that say about the word “kyopo boy”?
I think it’s all about context - how the word is used. A famous athlete once had a falling out with his manager over money. The athlete referred to him negatively as “that Jew.” In such a context, THAT is offensive. Now let’s say I have a dispute with a white American about ANYTHING, be it about money, race, a sports event, politics, or America’s relations with Korea. He goes on and on about how Korea is this most f*cked up country with more racism than in the US. Let’s say I disagree with him (because I know about racism in the US). He then refers to me derisively as a “l’il kyopo.” Now THIS I find racist.
Then I have to hear again and again about how I and “my kind” didn’t “assimilate” into the American way, whatever the hell that means. He is saying that I, the guy who was born in the US where there were almost NO Asians and who spoke only ONE language for most of his life and who had to be taught by an African-American boy on a field trip how to use chopsticks, who registered for Selective Service at age 18, who pays his taxes, eats apple pie, watches the Superbowl, votes in most elections, etc. has not assimilated to the “American way.” And at a late age, I learned the Korean language and the Korean culture and found I loved it. And while I agree there are many defects about Korean culture, I also think it’s DEFINITELY no worse than what I (as opposed to white people) endured in America. And if, in response I am referred to as a “L’il kyopo” or “Kyopo boy”….then yes, I would say the term is racist.
In a nutshell, if the words “kyopo” and “Jew” are comparable, just switch the phrases around everytime you feel the need to mention the word “kyopo.” THAT will tell you if the word is being used offensively or not.
Good post, JK !
Hmmmm . . . JK has a point. Need more time to think about it. Will discuss with more with my smarter older brother but I feel that the moniker kyopo has positive qualities and frankly many Koreans envy us (for better or worse, often out of ignorance) and also as a rule I am not for racial sensiblity or touchy feelings. But I understand the pain but also ask that the discrimination felt by Russian Koreans or the [others] is also not the same as our situation. I say we tough it out like our older siblings did and let the next generation figure it out. I hate to throw anyone under the bus but adpotees from America are treated differently from any other country. So to me, the definition of kyopo changes according to its context, but the real root of definition must remain in Korean Korean context and should not overly defined by an American Korean no matter what.
Well, sure you can, but it would be much preferable if society was not segregated to such a large extent as it still seems to be, according to your description.
Being asked that question is, indeed, annoying. But I think this wouldn’t happen in major cities.
As a jaemi-kyopo, personally, I don’t give a crap. Most people in America don’t even know what the hell a “kyopo” is or where Korea is. Most Americans see me and what they think is not “damn kyopo!” but more along the lines of “damn chink!”.
Just another example that some folks seem to have a curiously abundant capacity for the most useless and asinine debate.
No word has any inherent meaning. Meaning is societally/communally determined and changes over time. Dictionaries aren’t divinely inspired or gifts from some linguitically omnipotent gods. Dictionaries, particularly modern dictionaries, are more like reports of the various uses of a given term in a variety of contexts. Thus while a debate about any historic meaning or morphologically components of a term are interesting, they don’t tell you what a term ‘means’ within a language.
Furthermore, words have different meanings to different people/communities in different contexts. Of course, in polite public discourse we have to make decisions about the words we choose. Certain words are clearly out of bounds while others are less cut and dry. However, it seems that if a term offends a group of people and there is a perfectly acceptable (to everyone) alternative like “Korean American” or “Korean Canadian” etc. then why not use the more acceptable term.
Agadan:
My primary point in the discussion over at the other thread was that we really need the term “Gyopo” as a generic description for all those of Korean extraction living permanently in a whole variety of different countries. And this need is more pressing over here in Europe (I’m German) than in North America, due to the much larger number of independant countries (something like 40 or so). And “Korean-European” simply sounds silly.
But H. Kim and I have already made peace over at The Asia Pages, so I will not comment further upon the issue. JK’s analysis is really very much in point, though.
Fantasy, I also made my point about Gerry Bevers at the other thread if you wish to discuss. Like I (and you over at Metro’s blog) said, we would likely be friends in person if we were to meet….but….we have major disagreements on some other issues.
JK:
Sorry, I cannot find your comment at the other thread. The thread seems to end with Andy declaring that 510 comments are enough.
Regards
Fantasy
Fantasy, go to Marmot Unplugged, Jan. 12, I believe.
Is the term “Gyopo” offensive? No. Gyopo, Kyopo, Dongpo… is all same term defining my status and other ethnic Korean (or overseas Korean) to me.
Of course, everyone could see and feel more than a plain meaning of word when it applied in a negative context.
said JK.
Yeah, I also get a variation of that.
What’s your name?
No, your real name.
Some US Koreans only have a name like John or James as their legal name.
How come America is so segregated still? Whites hang out with whites, blacks with blacks, asians with asians… etc
Can someone please explain this to a none American? I don’t understand because when I meet Americans regardless of race they are very similar to each other. For example most Korean-Americans (that I have met) are more similar to African-Americans, White Americans and other Americans than they are to Koreans from Korea… I have experience with for example African-Americans, Irish-Americans and so on…
Maru,
We generally blend together pretty well at work and school, but many Americans tend to be most comfortable with folks that have similar backgrounds and experiences in our more personal relationships (family, friends and church).
It is not just race; Southerners like Southerners, city folk like city folk and so on.
The racial divide in the USA is slowing eroding, much like the ethnic and (to a lesser extent) religious divide among whites did in previous generations (except for Hispanics and even that is lessening). In another generation or two, I don’t think you will see as much de facto racial segregation. Here are some interesting numbers:
.
(BTW, those numbers show that the myth of Asian guys being losers in the interracial dating scene is way overblown.)
The one area where progress has been way to slow is with blacks. Sometimes it seems like the black/white divide is being slowing replaced by the black/everyone else divide. I hope that things will soon improve there also.
What’s the big deal with being asked where someone is from; better that, than assuming it and getting it wrong. If I had a dollar for every time someone asked me that question back home I’d be a rich man. And from all different ethnicities too. So what? At least they’re showing interest. Just because someone asks you your heritage doesn’t mean they are assuming you are not an American. At least, not usually.
Perhaps there is just a latent form of racism that is expressed through skepticism of another’s intent when being asked that question when they are not obviously of the same background as you. Is the question offensive or is the skeptical response to the question offensive?
Ditto Andy’s answer to Maru; well said. Differences and tendencies to stay with “like-kind” stretch way beyond ethnic groups. After moving form North to South in the late 80s I found that out to my surprise. Southerners of any race at my high school (except blacks, unfortunately) hung out with southerners and northern transplants stayed amongst themselves. Interactions between the groups were mostly cordial but nothing more than that.
there’s some big deal going on in britain right now about some realty show contestants being racist towards the only indian one. there are over a thousand articles about it at google news. here’s a snip:
‘Indian TV channels have shown continuous footage of the show, in which one housemate has said she was scared to eat food prepared by Shetty because, “you don’t know where those hands have been,” and another referred to her as “The Indian.”‘
what’s wrong with calling her indian? she’s indian. she’s from india. hmmmmmmmmm, i wonder why.
Why do there have to be words like gyopo, ajjuma etc…anyway? Koreans seem to use these words to show or make differences amounst themselves. As far as I can tell, it only creates prejudice. I’m sure you’ve all heard the line “in Korea there are men, women and ajjuma.” My Korean-American male friends have to endure crap like, “oh, your a gyopo, you didn’t serve in the army so your not a real Korean man.” Sometimes, they don’t say it jokingly either. I thought only Americans, Canadians and other western coutries did that, but I guess I’m wrong.
Breaktrack does make a good point- probably the most worthy of consideration so far; while differentiating between others can be done for purely innoccuous purposes, many times it’s more of a means to differentiate ourselves from others to give us a better feeling about ourselves. Everyone does it; I’ve done it. Sometimes we build ourselves up by being in “contrast” to “them.” It’s a shame but it’s true.
This topic cured my insomnia too.
Breaktrack,
When in Korea, I found the people who seem to make the biggest deal of me being “kyopo” were not Koreans but white Canadians.
Everytime I met a group of white Canadians in Korea, there is always at least one person among them that has to ask if I’m a kyopo (I guess based on my ability to speak English); then they ask if I feel discriminated against by Koreans. And then I respond, “No, it’s not Koreans who make a big deal about me being kyopo. Koreans accept me. It’s always Canadians like yourself who ask me if I’m discriminated against by Koreans.”
Then I’ll goodnaturedly, and with a smile, ask the Canadian if he feels he’s being discriminated against by Koreans because they see him as a second-class substitute for Americans. Then he laughs and then shuts up.
seouldout from Korea (South)
Posted January 19, 2007 at 11:44 pm
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
This topic cured my insomnia too.
Quite so. Let’s get back on staple topics such as rape, victimization of USFK, Korean prostitutes …
WJK hast just come up with yet another term: “US Koreans”
Is that acceptable ?
Or offensive ?
I do not know the answer.
JK:
I’ll go to the other thread and try to find your comment. But do not expect to write too much in response, as I really have a lot of work on my desk today.
Wow, what a ride it was, reading the thread that this thread was spawned from! And where is H. Kim? Isn’t this thread dedicated to this issue of his?
JK, your explanation in # 22 seems to make a lot of sense. I had never thought of it that way, but that makes sense. There’s no doubt in my mind that when Dogbert uses the term “kyopo”/”gyopo” he’s doing so contemptuously, although the term itself is largely value-neutral. H. Kim’s approach might have been more effective if he’d addressed the way Dogbert specifically was using the word, not so much in absolute terms.
Andy (#36): interesting statistics!
MrChips (#38): That’s interesting, too…I wonder if it was accent as much as anything else that served as a marker to segregate the Northern students?
Pawi (#39): I don’t know if you were just trying to make a point or trying to bait commenters (knowing how you operate, the latter is more likely), but of course their behaviour is reprehensible, and of course in this context, the term “the Indian” is offensive, which furthers JK’s point. It’s offensive because her fellow contestants chose to refer to her not by name (thereby evoking and respecting her personhood), but by a label, describing her by how she’s superficially different from everyone else. I assume that’s the point you were trying to make?
Actually, I suppose as long as one knows a person’s name (and therefore doesn’t have to resort to other means in speaking about him or her), referring to that person by pretty much any descriptive label (like “the Yugoslavian guy,” “that Kiwi,” whatever) could be construed as being offensive, because one is describing the person by how they appear to be different from everyone else. It may be the kind of thing that doesn’t even occur consciously to the speaker, but might be picked up readily by the person being spoken about.
Gyopos still suck.
(Still just kidding.)
‘Pawi (#39): I don’t know if you were just trying to make a point or trying to bait commenters (knowing how you operate, the latter is more likely), but of course their behaviour is reprehensible, and of course in this context, the term “the Indian” is offensive, which furthers JK’s point. It’s offensive because her fellow contestants chose to refer to her not by name (thereby evoking and respecting her personhood), but by a label, describing her by how she’s superficially different from everyone else. I assume that’s the point you were trying to make?’
it’s intersting you think i’m trying to bait someone when it seems claer you understood my point exactly. sometimes a innocent word can used as a derogatory one. that’s why dogbert and others here use the word kyopo.
mr kim has asked to be called a ka. what’s so hard about that? and btw, notice ‘ka’ stands for korean american? it’s three letters less than ‘kyopo’.
‘it’s too impractical to write korean american all the time therefore i will call you ‘kyopo’. expat more interested in showing he can beat a korean
Pawikirogi:
Please read my comment no. 29 above.
Yes, it is funny. I also get asked where I am from all the time. Some people are just hyper-sensitive.
Matt, you don’t know what you’re talking about…..as usual.
*sniff sniff* Dang, hope I don’t have a cold.
Gyopo to me is as ‘offensive’ as Limey, Kiwi, Canuck, Ruskie, Aussie or Yank. In other words, who really cares?
I rather be called an American. I was born and raised here, and I served the country for 5 years, one in Iraq. It’s not that I’m not proud of being a Korean, but I rather be called something that I am, where I was born.
It doesn’t really that much though. Better than being called “Itaewon” which is offensive to me.
after reading most of the comments here my conclusion is : the term kyopo can be offensive to someone how is not really a kyopo. however the word itself is not derogatory in any way. i am born and raised in the US, never lived in any other place than the US in my life, but i do identify myself as a kyopo, because i identify strongly with my korean heritage. it is understandable that someone who does not identify himself as a korean, but as a korean-american and korean-american alone could be offended by someone calling him kyopo. i identify myself as both.
bottom line, its not a derogatory word, it just can be offensive if you arent a gyopo and someone just labels you one.
As a Korean living in America i think the term gyopo is disgusting. It segregates Koreans even further than they already are. If you were born a Korean, you are a Korean heck the only thing that seperates you from the Koreans raised in Korea, is the length of time you spent in another country. You are both still 100% Korean. Therefore the term Korean who has spent time overseas is sufficent. And also to those Korean people who were born and raised in America… You will never be American. They will never accept you as one and will always harbor resent toward you.
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[...] Is the word “kyopo” offensive to Korean Americans along the lines that “nigger” is to the descendants of black slaves in America? That is what a Korean American commenter called H.Kim at the Marmots Hole is saying. It started here, and since it was hijacking the thread, Robert “the Marmot” Koehler made a new post to discuss the issue. [...]
[...] If you ever wanted to debate the merits of the word "gyopo" here and here are the place to do it. [...]