UPDATE: It appears Gen. Bell was even more angry than the Korean-language report made it seem. See this, from Yonhap’s English report:
“I am opposed to any decision to stretch this out for any reasons, whether it’s political or it’s fiscal… or whatever it is,”
[...]
The four-star general became emotional, saying U.S. soldiers here, who now total around 30,000, badly need new facilities to live in with their families for a “normal life.”
“We hope … that this consolidation effort corrects a wrong that we have tolerated for years, and that is lousy living conditions and lousy facilities,” he said. “I don’t want my families and my service members to live in those conditions. I want them to be normal. I am fairly emotional about this.”
He added that the deadline was fast approaching and he didn’t care if the problems were political or financial, saying “I will fight this (delay),” and urging the South Korean government to show its firm commitment to the project rather than being swayed by other conditions.
Well, no one is going to accuse the good general of beating around the bush.
ORIGINAL POST: Gen. B.B. Bell is pissed off, and he ain’t bottling it up inside.
According to Yonhap, the USFK commander told reporters during a press conference at Yongsan on Tuesday that (and I’m translating back into English from Korean here), “Korea and the United States agreed in 2004 to move U.S. bases to Pyeongtaek by 2008… If there are delays because of political reasons or budget problems, I will fight them.”
He also said he was surprised by Korean press reports (like this) claiming it would be impossible to move the bases by 2008. Expressing concern about those reports, he said they [the reports] were news to him and not the schedule Korea and the United States agreed to.
He added that he hoped there would be no more delays in the base transfer and that promises to guarantee the quality of life of U.S. servicemen would not be broken.
Bell also bitched about the results of last year’s bilateral discussions over cost sharing for 2007-2008.
He said the U.S. had proposed Korea pay 832 billion won, while Korea proposed only 722.5 billion won. The results of the negotiations left USFK facing severe financial difficulties—this year, he claimed, USFK would be more than 100 billion won short. And because of this shortfall, he said, he was going to be presenting a shortened list of needs next month.
One might read this as a threat to cut Korean base workers, construction contracts and other goodies the Korean side enjoys.
Last year, Korea agreed to boost its share of USFK’s costs some 6.6 percent to 725.5 billion won in 2007 and 2008 (the latter year would be adjusted for inflation).
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Once the decision has been made to move, I’m sure USFK would love to expedite — if only to stay on schedule — the redeployment. Every twist and turn from the delays is not only expensive but affords opportunities for one Korean group or another to publicly beat their chests about some real or imagined injustice. It makes one wonder if it is in the vested interest of many activists and the camp followers with their quick money schemes to drag out this relocation as long as possible.
All of this reminds me of the Roman soldiers rolling their eyes while having to tolerate the antics of the Jews in Monty Python’s “Life of Brian.” While not an occupier (contrary to some opinions held by ivory tower theorists), as Korea’s ally, it can be tough going just trying to be around.
Basically, he wants more money. He may get a browny point from DOD for doing this.
However, if he shouts too loud, it may backfire as well. Anti-American sentiment is still high in Korea.
He must be suave and know exactly how much he can push. Sometimes, these generals have “chip on their shoulder”. Especially, the first year.
And, they do make booboos. Big booboos.
Koreans are no longer country hicks. He’d better be careful. Apply just enough pressure. Too much pressure may backfire.
No, they are.
Unfortunately, they have convinced themselves that they are not.
Therein lies the danger.
Backfire to what? Perhaps what you stated has already happened. Korea has been applying the pressure, poking, prodding, etc for a good number of years now – and to this point the US has (for the most part) let it slide.
I am no expert on this but perhaps the recent events (strategic realignment, Japan, Norknukes, etc) have indeed lessened Korea’s place at the bargaining table. They just cannot get away with what they have been able to in the past.
I know it may be some peoples wishful thinking but making a public show of it could be a precursor to a greater reduction in numbers and duties on the peninsula.
As a commander of the US forces, he represent America. As a diplomat(yes, that is his job), he should be very careful about what he says. Basically, choice of words.
He used the expression, “I will fight…”. Wrong choice. The correct way is “I will strongly oppose..”
Korean newspapers directly translated the expression as “I will physically fight…”. The commander is being used by Commies to anger Korean people. And, he made a booboo.
The commander will say, “I am an American and I will use any expression I damn please”. No sir, you represent America. There is no need to anger host country and make everything difficult from here on.
Unless, of course, you like to anger Korean people to achieve ulterior motive, like the general who cried on the Sixty Minute, the CBS expose news entertainment.
There he was crying his hearts out. On national TV. WTF! A US general crying like a girl. Either he needed a psychatry help or he had an ulterior motive.
However, whatever he was up to, there are limits. Crying on the news program? This soils the uniform he is wearing.
I cried while wearing the uniform of the US Forces. My CO told me, “you cannot cry while wearing the military uniform of the USA”. Well, he should see what this two-star general did.
On the national TV.
Not that I can’t understand General Bell’s expressions of frustration regarding delays in moving the base, but I don’t believe that delays in the schedule are really surprising to him. Not one person I’ve spoken to since 2004 – officer or enlisted military, DOD employee, Korean base worker, or anybody else who has been in Korea more than a couple of years – thought this thing was ever going to happen by 2008, if ever.
Backfire to what?
1) All US servicemen will not be able to travel outside the base.
2) Korean police will arrest any US military personnel outside the US base after 10AM.
3) No Koreans will be allowed to work for the US military forces. This include KATUSAs.
4) All Korean transportation system, bus, subways and airlines will not be allowed to carry any US soldier.
etc, etc…
Then, you will say “we will leave Korean peninsula”. Well, that may happen but that is decided by people in Pentagon. So far, for whatever reason, they had the US Forces stationed in Korea. I still believe the training under possible threat is the main objective.
So, because one general’s choice of words, the relationship between two countries will come to an end.
And, your “the US has (for the most part) let it slide” comment is so one-sided. You mean, up to now, the US negotiators were ninkapoops. What are you saying? They were dirty? Or, stupid?
Man, Korean people are saying the same thing, “up to now, Korea has been paying too much”.
When one side becomes unreasonable, a negotiation cannot take place. Happens in marriage all the time.
I am sick of hearing, “we are here only because we made a promise”. You mean American tax payers have been paying billions and billions of dollars every year, just because some idiot(Truman?) made a promise to protect Korea some fifty years ago?
Wake up and smell the coffee.
And, don’t be like a drama queen wife who says,” I am only in this marriage because some stupid promise I made ten years ago” and then she goes to a shopping mall and buys two hundred dollars worth of shoes. On your credit card!
What is good for a goose is good for a gander. And, few relationship lasts fifty years, if only one side gets all the benefit. Unless one getting hurt is a moron.
I don’t think the US is a moron.
I hope this is a strategic move on Bell’s part leading to a drawing down of US troops and not just some useless outburst. Otherwise I can see the Korean media and other anti-US groups using it to bring up the level of hate yet again.
If one wants to leave, just quietly draw down troops. There is no need to anger the native on the way out.
Some natives may throw bottles and you will get your face bloodied.
A very stupid move.
&
No surprises that the 2008 move date couldn’t be met.
One wonders where these 20,000 – 40,000 additional troops destined for Iraq will come from. Wasn’t Gen. Bell the guy who moved the troops out of Germany?
Should see things develop soon.
His remark is completely understandable, but given the anti-American atmosphere he should have been much more tactful, diplomatic and careful about choosing words.
The US shouldn’t be here providing stability for foreign investment in Korea anymore. This is the only reason, as far as I can tell, that Koreans want the US here. A high percentage of South Koreans would actually turn on the US in the event of a war according to surveys done some time ago. It’s time to leave and let North Korea provide stability. Since Koreans are supposedly not backwoods hicks anymore, they can defend and provide stability for their own country. Thirty thousand armed forces personnel can be used in other places instead of being wasted in this ungrateful land.
baduk,
I am not even sure if I should bother answering your little outbursts there but…
The newspapers have and will continue to add their own little nuance to whichever quote they see fit – regardless of whether or not they understand the original intention. Blaming him for that is ludicrous.
For your 4 points…huh?
And no. The relationship will not come to an end because of what he said. It could be just symbolic of the changing relationship.
The US has been quite careful in a political sense not to ruffle any feathers here in Korea – the same cannot be said for the Korean administration nor the vocal minority (?). Nothing more was implied.
Your marriage analogy is…odd. People do get divorced if things cannot work out…even after decades of being together.
As for the few relationships last 50 years…ceteris paribus you may have a point – but the times they are a changin….
While baduk doesn’t believe the US is a moron, I am becoming concerned that perhaps baduk is a moron. For the life of me, I cannot understand how this man could say the United States has spent billions upon billions for the defense of this poor, benighted land — especially during the years when Korea really was a wretched shithole — and then argue as if the United States still owes Korea something. And baduk claims to be a former US Navy officer!
Baduk,
thats quite a rant, but the one point I think you have is him using the word “fight”. I’ve long maintained that whenever the USFK opens its mount it needs to have a small team of korean spin doctors scrub it of any potential interpretations like that. I bet he doesn’t even know how the Korean media is saying in response other than the English Language press. Show me a USFK personality that doesn’t live in a fishbowl. I like the “message of sharing with our neighbors” targeted towards koreans during the US holiday season that General Bell; filmed in the golf course on post.
Completely oblivious to what golf symbolizes and fresh in the wake of the poitician who had to resign because his golf escapades at a time he should have been working.
As to the repurcussions. You are way off. Even the current US curfew was imposed by the USFK imediatly after 911 on the grounds of “its dangerous for you to be out all night with all the terrorists”. yeeeeaaaaagh… a one year rotation means one-year recurring amnesia on behalf of the soldiers serving here.
Even the current off limits areas is a product of USFK command viewing its soldiers as liabilities, not the the current Korean administration trying to punish them. Name one instance when the Korean government (or any foreign government) has taken political revenge directly on the US forces serving in its country.
Now lets go back to General Bell (he’s more fun):
Hey, quick, wheres that slick Humphreys expansion promo video that shows the 18 hole Golf Course being planned there? This guy is a four star for crying out loud and has to suffer through the damn put-put golf course. No wonder he’s emotional!
Key Point (made by Seouldout): the 2008 date could not have been met unless construction work began in 2005. There is too much work to be done and the contractor has not even been chosen yet! That’s the reality and Bell is well aware of it.
So, to the question of whether Bell is being strategic: is that a rhetorical question or is the person who asked it a fucking idiot? (that’s a rhetorical question)
As a long term observer of the ‘Hole’, Baduk’s off the wall comments and predictions provide a welcome break from sanity I usually seek in Jean-Claude Van Dame (spelling? whatever) movies and repeated viewings of ‘Dude Where’s My Car.’ What is not surprising, given how many Koreans think, is that Baduk believes it is the US and in this case General Bell, who is putting the alliance at risk and threatening an even harder existence for US military personnel in Korea.
the slick promo video was here: http://www.usfk.mil/usfk/index.....ation.html
But it looks like they are blocking Korean IPs so:
http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/.....ation.html
at any rate the proxy won’t stream video, so I can’t tell if they took it down.
was referenced from Nomads comment section:
http://www.lostnomad.org/?p=2747
nevermind, its still there just “click for full view”
It’ll either make you throw up, laugh uncontrollably, or give you a hard-on depending on whether you are sane, cynical or a four-star (respectively).
This is not your father’s OldsmoBell.
The mutual ass-kissing with Korea stops here. It’s about goddamn time.
Of course B.B. is setting the stage for a full pullout, at least of all ground elements (Osan and Kunsan are likely to remain). More power to him. Let’s hope today is the beginning of the end for USFK.
Brendon Carr,
That is where you’re wrong. Korea does not owe America anything.
Even in marriage, one spouse gets that “you owe me” into his/her head and it is very difficult to have a reasonable conversation.
America was happy to be in Korea. Again, don’t say, “we stayed only because we signed the document”. If the US had not been happy, Kissinger would have worked out another Paris Talk and pulled troops out.
Again, it is very clear to me that satisfaction had been shared by two nations. And, it is damn poor attitude for some idiots to assume “Korea owes us”.
It is so odd that these same people don’t think that France or England owe something to the US. I believe a latent racism at work here.
As an ex-USFK soldier and ardent advocate of drastic USFK reductions, I’d like to begin this ranticle by strongly encouraging the Korean government to enact all of the measures Baduk advocates in #7 above.
I love debating the concept of “diplomacy” as applied to Korea, where that term has no coherent definition whatsoever. Retarded Chinese farmers spent the last decade renting out North Korean comfort women for six bucks a half hour while Ban Ki Moon’s “quiet diplomacy” played as soft background music. When the Chinese were done with them, they’d jab wires through the girls’ noses and lead them back to the firing squad, and Chung Dong-Young never took Kim Jong Il’s dick out of his mouth long enough to say “hold your fire.”
Then, there’s the other extreme, the one South Korea uses with its allies and trading partners. For the last few years, we’ve all enjoyed the spectacle of Korea’s “statesmen” in competition to make the most bellicose threat of hostilities over two guano sculptures in the Sea of Japan. Then, after years of bitter negotiations, fought to the last pyeong, and which will return 30,000 acres and a huge chunk of Seoul back to Korean control, Korea waits until a new SecDef is going through confirmation to float an obvious trial balloon about renegeing on that deal.
Daechu-ri would be family housing by now, and its occupants counting their generous compensation, had the ROK government bothered to offer it, and if it would actually enforce its own public order against violent thugs whose puppet-strings lead straight to Manyondae. Americans are awfully tired of the headache and expense that accompany the unique privilege of subsidizing a wealthy ex-ally. Forgive us for finally grasping that getting your way in Korea is all about having the loudest voice, the most inflexible position, and the most iron pipes.
It worked for Garry Trexler, didn’t it?
It would be interesting to compare and contrast the Korean reporting with an “all-English” version of what was actually said at the press conference. Am I wrong to assume that there should have been at least a few US reporters there? (I’d think at least one US reporter for Stars and Stripes would have been present, to provide an Pacific S&S “original English” version of the remarks).
Also I’d think the press conference would be videotaped by USFK public affairs office, if only for their own protection. How about ROK televison — don’t they video tape and then at least show extracts on ROK evening TV news? Will the whole thing be shown on a Korean equivalent of C-Span, or is this a laughable delusion on my part?
Unless Gen Bell is a fluent Korean linguist, I assume these press conferences proceed relatively slowly, to allow for translation back and forth into Korean. Or are they done entirely in English?
Assuming the “retranslation” back into English reflects accurately his original wording, it seems hard to believe that the 4 star’s words weren’t carefully chosen, with prior clearance for their “tenor” with the ambassador and the military chain above (Pacific Command and the Pentagon).
Yes, construction would have had to begin some time ago, meaning that money would have been needed earlier (if on the US taxpayers’ dime), and even earlier if negotiations with the ROK were needed if on its dime–are these “financial constraints” a fancy-dancy way of saying “I forgot”, which is no different from “Screw you”?
And it takes a long time for rice paddy sediment to be solidified enough to build on; weren’t those Cp Humphreys farmers only recently evicted?
The word “fight” is a red herring. I reckon we’ll be hearing a few how-dare-he-say-the-word-fight protests; maybe an editorial or two. Keep everyone distracted and off the real issue: the money.
Is the alliance just about the teat Korea keeps sucking?
“I ain’t sayin’…I’m just sayin’.”
Here’s the USFK official transcript of the press conference, it’s a pdf:
http://www.usfk.mil/org/FKPA/s.....erence.pdf
My quick skim of it down to the “emotional” quote (see the question portion, after his preliminary remarks) indicates to me that Gen Bell’s “vision” (I’m using quotes for emphasis, not sarcasm) is that eventually all US forces tours should be authorized for “accompanied” status. No more restless brutal GI’s on one year tours, amusing themselves by attacking cab drivers and police stations.
He wants more US families to be present as ambassadors of good will, the way they can be in Germany.
He wouldn’t be interested in my opinion, but my preliminary reaction is that I think this is too dangerous. All US ground forces should leave, except maybe a battalion or two for airfield defense. There can be occasional redeployments of US combat battalions/ brigades into ROK for short term (maneuvers, a month or so).
ROK can take the money it saves and use it for
1) upgrading its own defense,or
2) increased subsidy to their northern brothers, or
3) some combo of !) and 2).
Gen. Bell will look weak if the USG acquiesces to a delay in the move. I’m guessing here, but someone close to Gates had to have given him the ok to spout off. Given the recent UN sanctions for the NORKS, the US will be a strong position to browbeat the ROK over its overall shabby treatment of USFK & American taxpayers while the ROK flouts sanctions with increasingly generous bribes to the NORKS. Things aren’t looking up, understatement right?
Reporters are reporters. They are into peddling their product and they will “mistranslate” the generals words to get Koreans riled up. They sell more newspapers.
General Bell fell for their trap by selecting wrong words.
It reminds me of the Sixty Minutes, the most respected newsprogram/entertainment of USA. They did a Korean report about three years ago. These ninkampoops fly into Seoul and interview three students they selected at random, who turned out to be flaming Commies.
Then, they file into General Campbell’s office, where the good general explained the history of American troop stationed in Korea. While continuing conversation, this (hillbillie?) general starts crying. He seems to say, “while we did so much for these yellow people, they turned out to be such sobs. I am so mad. I am so mad that I will cry. Boohoohoo. Boohoohoo. How can they be so unthankful? Boohoohoo.”
I wonder if he cries on the battlefield as well. Boohoohoo. An American general crying his hearts out on national TV.
Human? No. Would you invest in a company, if the company’s president is a crybaby? I wouldn’t. Reminds me of President Rho who complains frequently of pressures and says he wants to quit. A wonderful leader!
I hope General Bell does better.
I didn’t have time to read all the comments and stopped skimming at around 20…
I am glad to see USFK leadership and hopefully higher up push like this, and I think the expression of anger in the manner he made it is just fine.
Korean society has shown frequently in the US-SK relationship (and in more recently in the relationship with China) it understands which side its bread its buttered on.
Korean nationalism will seek to push its agendas and exploit anger at the outsider a good bit……..but the society as a whole never forgets where its benefits and liabilities come from.
The big mistake the US has made repeatedly in the past is to pussyfoot around Korea on important issue and on issue where anti-US activity is or might be involved. The basic approach has been to remain as quiet as possible, and Korean society has sensed that fear, and they exploit it. (On a similar note, just look at how frequently apologies by the US to Korea have made Korea more angry…).
The US should (and does) apologize when it is in the wrong, but what they haven’t learned until perhaps now is that Korean society will respect it more if it stands up for itself on issues where it is right.
The basic pattern that has fit the US relationship for a long time and that you can also see in the economic relationship with China is —
—-Korean nationalism will seek to turn things into major issues and use the society’s expressed anger to get what it wants — even if what it wants is for Korea to fail to do agreements it has signed.
China has reacted to these things by slamming Korea upside the head by placing high tariffis and other economic sanctions or actions against Korean imports there. And Korean society has backed down quickly.
The pattern in anti-US activity has been for some time that — when Korea feels like venting spleen, they will build up any issue, large or trivial, and keep it going as long as it felt good to them.
Sometimes it just peters out on its own.
But other times, when they really get going, it will catch the attention of the American press and/or it will piss off someone high up in the US government.
Whatever the case, whenever Korean society fears that it might hurt Korean exports, hurt Korea’s image, or cause a shift in USFK’s committment to Korea…
….they put the brakes on anti-US activity fast.
I’ll be so bold as to say if Gen. Bell’s expression of emotional disappointment at the Yongsan delay causes a significant increase in anti-US activity —- beyond the usual NGOs — I’ll drink a glass of piss.
That is the best way I can express my confidence in how the pattern of activity in Korea works.
I don’t know if his effort will result in Korea speeding up the transfer, but I promise it will cause some seriour deliberation in the Korean press, government, and military about what might be done to speed things up.
If Bell’s effort is echoed by the new Sec of Defense and others like the US ambassador and maybe the NY Times runs a few stories on it and the word “further troop reductions beyond previously announced levels” comes out —-
– don’t be suprised to see serious movement on the Pyongtaek front.
The US threatening to pull out its air units over the training range issue did not lead to a speedy solution on that front, but it was clear it got going what was dead in the water until then.
Blind threats are no good, but if the US military was remotely serious about taking air units out, telling that to the Korean press openly was the best policy. Absolutely.
And speaking that way will always get the Korean press, government, and others in the public eye to tell the average Korea to tell the NGOs to shut the f- up. The anti-NGOs won’t shut up, but they will be muted by the press and public opinion — because Korea does not want to lose USFK or damage the economic benefits it has in the US.
Basically, I am saying:
If the US has something to say, it should say it and forcefully. Those words help the US in Korea much more than hurting it.
I’m also happy to the USFK commander speaking out, because not doing so has helped the situation deteriorate to the point it has. From what I’ve read over the years, the conditions on the US bases around the nation and in Yongsan has been one of the biggest problems for USFK. Korean society and government never really gets it, because they put such little effort and money into the quaility of life for its soldiers, but one of the reasons the duty in Korea is considered a hardship tour is the poor living conditions.
By sitting back as Korea dragged its feet (for over a decade) on the relocation issue, it has really hurt the situation. This has been clear even from afar via just watching the press. It has beeen an incredibly shitty position: with the delay never seeming to end, every time the US has started renovations or new construction at Yongsan, it has been taken up by the anti-US NGOs, some in the media, and some in the Korean government. And the US has not been able to do major overhauls, because it makes no sense to spend all that money if you are going to leave a few years after they are done plus the knowledge that South Korean society would work itself into a tizzy about such an overhaul.
So, as Bell aptly stated, USFK and the living conditions for the GIs has been left in a limbo where the conditions get worse as time passes.
It is about time some serious noises were made about it.
baduk writes, inexplicably:
Really? You honestly haven’t noticed any anti-French feelings in the United States? You haven’t noticed the expectation that whatever the problem, Britain will be there shoulder-to-shoulder with America? If there’s any racism at work, it’s the soft bigotry of low expectations — that the United States should not expect or request the same loyalty and friendship from the Koreans because these people are incapable of it.
As for me, I’d like to hold Korea to the same standard as any developed, industrialized state which calls itself “ally” to the United States. And if Korea won’t act in accordance with American expectations of allied behavior (i.e. keep promises, chip in some gas money, not allow lawless predation on our soldiers, etc.), then the US should have some opportunity to reevaluate the state of the “friendship”. One gets to choose one’s friends, right?
I think you don’t follow any US media, and don’t know the history of this country in which you’ve taken citizenship.
actually that was a three star general who is now a four star in europe who cried on 60 minutes
general campbell
as for Bell demanding to korean’s thats a good thing to prolong the move
one thing koreans dont like is to lose face and be told what to do
Maybe Bell’s goomah lives in Pyongtaek.
“So, to the question of whether Bell is being strategic: is that a rhetorical question or is the person who asked it a fucking idiot? (that’s a rhetorical question)”
So MJ, what’s Bell’s strategy?
I actually I’d hold Korea to a much higher standard than any other ally, because there is nowhere on earth that the US has as much at stake as we do in Korea. During the Cold War, things were more on par, but the reason anti-US attitudes in Korea (rather than say in France) bother me more is that I know how much we risk facing off so close to a decrepit North Korea.
“So MJ, what’s Bell’s strategy?”
Forget it, the other posters gave me some answers. Go to it Bell! I hope pulling out troops is in the equation.
Baduk, the fact that there is some ‘trap’ shows that the General is in a no-win situation.
Joshua, I would agree if stuff like this were actually covered with the attention that it deserves by the US press. Americans would be tired if they really knew. What this issue needs is for the American press to bring the same standards of reporting to this issue that the Korean press brings.
I sympathize with those who think that Bell should tone down his words due to Anti-American sentiment in South Korea, but also think generating Anti-American sentiment is a SK strategy for politicians to say to the US, ‘our hands are tied’ in negotiating. That’s why some anti-SK sentiment would be a nice change for US politicians to say the same. But this won’t sell newspapers in the US–unlike SK.
Hi Mr. Baduk,
I’ve reread the article, but I can’t understand what has made you so mad about it. Aren’t you the guy who advocated nuclear carpet-bombing NorthKorea last year? What about “hey, keep our agreement, our guys are living in terrible conditions” by Gen. Bell has got your goat so badly?
You know Mighty B, sometimes reading your opinions a faint suspicion keeps coming back to me. When I read lines of yours like “And, he made a booboo”, I dunno, I just get this feeling that you are a fluent speaker of English, perhaps a native speaker, pretending to speak broken English, for what reason I would have no idea, uh, maybe to build a ‘Baduk brand’ of Korean authenticity here, or for your own amusement or whatever. I just can’t imagine an ESL speaker choosing ‘booboo’, but you know I can imagine a native speaker trying to ‘dumb down’ his writing choosing it.
Baduk, are you really a perfectly fluent speaker of English, not the broken speaker you post as? You can settle my coworker and I’s arguement about the question…
It just occurred to me that a very effective way for the Pentagon and Bell to negotiate would be the following:
ANNOUNCEMENT REGARDING BASE TRANSFER
On xMonth, 2008, the United States military will pull out of Yongsan base and forward DMZ bases, as agreed to by both governments in 2004, handing them back to Korea.
We sincerely hope that, as agreed, the Korean government will have honored it’s committment of to Camp Humphrey expansion.
In the event of ‘delays’, we will have no choice but to temporarily relocate the above Yongsan and DMZ troops elsewhere in the world, until the facilities agreed upon at Camp Humphrey are ready for them.
Hugh,
I am not a native speaker of English but I have lived in the State over 30 years. My English is similar to that of a ghetto rat- knowing buzz words yet cannot quite speak English fluently enough to use just enough strength.
In that, my problem is similar to that of the generals. He just used a word tad too strong and it gave Korean Commies to rally. And, we do not need KC to regain its strengh.
I was not mad at him. What mad me mad were 1) A hillbilly calling Koreans were hicks 2)some assertions about “Koreans owe us” and 3)a lawyer calling me a moron (without provocation).
Some people are just mad at me for pointing out the general made a booboo. They think I, as a naturalized citizen, do not have that right. The herd instinct sets in. Just like Koreans, they are busy protecting “their own”.
An error is an error. And, I, as a native level bi-lingual, am one of the few who can point this out.
Koreans owe the all the countries which fought for it freedom. Foreigners freed Korea twice. First it was WW2, then the Korean War. I won’t even get into the IMF saving Korea’s ass a few years back! The only people in the world who disagree with this are Koreans. I’ve never heard anyone BUT KOREANS disagree! Korea owes the US for making Korea stable enough for foreign investors to feel secure. Let’s not forget post-war aid from the US. Without foreign investors confidence in Korea’s stability, where would Korea be now? It wouldn’t be 11th in the world I know that much. America is still providing Korea with stability so Koreans can have there new cars, over-priced housing, cell phones etc…
Many US officers come to Korea and they leave after a couple of years.
If I say that the general made a mistake, then they would say “we don’t fucking care about how Koreans think. It is their problem. I will not change my way of speech and lifestyle because of them.”
Somehow, these same officers do change when they go to Europe. They are a lot more careful over there.
But, in Korea, Vietnam mentality reigns. “Fucking people… I hate to be here”. Well, you are here and how you behave can affect the relationship between two countries.
A leader has to be an effective communicator. In Korea, he is speaking to Korean media in this case. Why don’t you prepare by going over your speech with a Korean translator? Why not? You would do that in France, Germany or Spain. Why not in Korea?
I think the answer is latent racism. For you, anyone who doesn’t speak English is stupid.
Well, stupid people can still shoot the gun and kill you. It doesn’t take English to pull the trigger.
So, let’s not anger the natives unnecessarily. They can deliver mean kick to your stomach as well. And, they do run faster than you. You can not fight them.
Let’s be careful out there.
Breaktrack,
You are going to cry too like general Campbell.
I agree that the US helped Korea a lot. Especially, about protecting Korea from becoming a Communist satellite under USSR.
However, some of things you are saying have blown way out of proportion. You must get true data about direct economic help from the US. I have not yet heard of direct economic assistance from the US.
I know Japan have paid reparation for Korean occupation. Germany gave an advancement for wages to Korean government for Korean miners and nurses.
Yet, I have not heard of American economic assistance. Maybe the money was used by the US Forces.
Again, I stress this point. If one party of negotiation keeps on saying “you owe us”, then the talk breaks down.
I suspect the average Americans do not talk like this in Germany. Yet, they do in Korea, judging from what you said.
Racism.
I want two countries to work together. In one year, hopefully, all this anti-Americanism will disappear from Korean society.
As I wrote many times, it will only take one day. The day a new president, Lee Muyengbak, to walk into the Blue House.
A strong anti-Communist movement will start and the new beginning will happen in Korea. Korean people do change fast when they see who is in charge.
Yet, some American stupidity is blowing the chance. Blunt and insensitive moves by the US government, especially the US forces in Korea, can make this country into another VietNam.
Korea is a nation of sizable population, 50 million, which is well-educated and highly technical people. Soon, they will make robots, military robots with very destructive capability.
It is not good to anger this people. Learn to work with them. President Bush did. He went way out of his way to apologize to Korean people for the traffic accident that killed two girls. He did not have to do that. But, he did.
Bush is a leader.
“You must get true data about direct economic help from the US. I have not yet heard of direct economic assistance from the US.”
Baduk, I can’t find the article I read it in, but in an economic report on development assistance over the years, I read that the US gave billions in development assistance and low-cost ‘loans’ in the 50s, 60s and into the 70s. The Japanese also offered billions in assistance. And lest anyone complain that some of the money was in the form of loans, remember that they were loaning to a country that no one else would risk giving loans to, because of the expectation that they may very well not get most of it paid back.
Damn straight. Let’s rename kimchi to ‘freedom rotten veggies’ — that’ll show ‘em.
snow,
If that were true, why the US and Japan ask Koreans to pay back the loan.
They should, especially now that Korea has become 11th largest economy in the world. At least, get 5 to 10% back. General Bell can build housing with that money. Yet, he is brow-beating to get a few more won. If what you say is true, he should definitely use it.
However, I suspect what you may have heard is untrue. Inaccuracies and propaganda sometimes give wrong ideas to people.
Japan, I know for sure, has not given anything to Korea for free, other than the reparation. If they had, they would insist that Korea give Dokto to them as the payment.
To help Snow along…
From the Congressional Research Service Brief IB98045 available at http://www.opencrs.com/rpts/IB98045_20030827.pdf
Now a question for Baduk: What is it that you think the U.S. got in return?
(Actually, this isn’t coming from me. Allison Dubois just talked to my dead uncle who was killed during the Battle of Chosin Reservoir, and he rolled over in his grave to pass along the question.)
Here’s a link that describes how the US gave about $4 billion in grand aid in the first couple of decades after the Korean War. As Korea became more and more developed, the US pphased this development aid out but Japan helped to pick up the slack. Also, don’t forget that the US presence was instrumental in enabling the chaebols and other Korean companies to get foreign capital, ie. from foreign banks and such. Also, the US provided most(?) of the funds that the IMF used to save Korea’s butt during the meltdown of 1997. And it’s to Korea’s great credit that they were able to pay it off in such short order. The Koreans have done a great job in bringing their country to developed world status, but it would have been impossible without the generous support of the US.
http://www.country-studies.com.....tions.html
This report doesn’t seem to specify how much, but I believe that the Japanese gave huge amounts in grant aid to Korea as well. In fact, they were second only to the US in assistance.
Your suggestion that Bell ask for more in interest from past loans is nothing short of ridiculous. Those were past agreements long since completed and finalized. I know that its common for Korean companies to want to renegotiate an already completed and signed agreement, but this would be ridiculous for Bell to use. Those agreements are finished and completed, they can’t be re-opened to get more cash. The fact is, Korea is getting its military support on the very cheap and wants to have its cake and eat it too. Korea should pay more, as they already pay far less than what it really costs the US.
baduk bleats:
You are correct in your description of American soldiers’ attitudes toward Korea, their country’s staunch friend and ally.
I’ve asked this question before, to no avail, but it’s a fun and trenchant question: Do you believe Koreans bear any responsibility for the formation of this attitude? Or is it all just built-in racism on the part of the Americans (some of whom, I note, are ethnic Koreans themselves)?
Zonath suggests:
I have a better idea: The US government should mandate that kimchi must be labelled with the spelling “kimuchi” in Roman letters and katakana.
The funniest things I’ve read in months were all in this thread thanks to the (sometimes) wonderful Baduk….
1. “Koreans are no longer country hicks.” (Talk about living in denial. This statement actually made me laugh out loud.)
2. “Bush is a leader.” (He forgot the words “corrupt” and “ignorant”.)
3. “Soon Korea will make military robots with very destructive capability.” (My favorite. Who would have thought SkyNet and the Terminators would originate in a place that only steals patents and never actually invents anything themselves? Maybe Haiti will invent the Warp Drive too.)
I love this blog.
Ahhh yes…the good old standby.
When you’ve got nothing…scream “racism!”
Baduk:
I might cry, I don’t need my mother to die to show I’m not an emotionless robot who is ashamed to show emotion. I also don’t need to get drunk to show my “true feelings” and to make friends either. I’m not that insecure Baduk. Obviously you are though. Say what you will, but foreigners saved S. Korea’s ass on three seperate occassions during the 20th century and Koreans have reaped the benefits. Well, except those of mixed ethnicity. No one, except Koreans deny the facts.
And foreigners unfortunately saved N Korea’s ass and look what it has gotten China–a perpetual pain in the ass to not only its enemies but its allies as well.
None of my family died in the Korean War, but my wife’s grandfather died as a Chinese ‘volunteer.’ Her father never knew his father. (The human wave did actually consist of…humans.) Yes, Korea was stuck between superpowers but it was a Korean who started the war.
Hatch SZ:
None of my family died in the Korean War, but my wife’s grandfather died as a Chinese ‘volunteer.’ Her father never knew his father. (The human wave did actually consist of…humans.) Yes, Korea was stuck between superpowers but it was a Korean who started the war.
—————————————————
I really don’t know where you get your information but the whole Korea War was cooked up by Chairman Mao and Stalin. I’m surprised you were even able to access this page from government controlled mindfuck, unless you happen to work for the Communist Party over there.
If it wasn’t for worthless pile of Chinese crap like you we wouldn’t be having this conversation today, so please kindly butt out.
In any, back to conversation:
I do think it’s time for USFK to leave Korea. I don’t think all these mindless conversation is doing anyone any good.
US really have to force Korea’s hand. It’s really up to them to figure out what to do next. It’s unfortuante that that Roh never had a “Plan B” after all the crap he’s pulled. Considering Korea’s mindset, talking rarely does any good.
Spook and others,
You guys are like Koreans who only count what they have given, instead of looking at what they have received.
In 1950-60, South Korea is a part of the US cold war strategy. Many thinkers correctly identified the domino theory(yes, I believe it) and the fall of SK to Russian blog meant Japan will be the next. It was vital for the US strategy to help SK economically, so that it does not go over to the other side.
In late 60s through early 70s, (nobody here seems to remember) Korea became a very important country to the US by sending troops to VietNam. I believe Koreans were the largest foreign army presence in VietNam, other than US Army. Yes, Korean men still suffers from the war wounds.
And, some of you are saying what has Korea ever do for the US. Visit nearby Army hospitals and you will meet some Korean VietNam vets who are in wheel chair. Many Korean men died in Nam, repaying the lives the US has given to Korea.
The US has given economic aids to Korea in exchange for this service. In other words, it was not free money as some of you seem to insist. It was blood money.
For two countries to get along, people have to understand each other and treat each other fairly. Media propaganda has affected people in both countries and, as a result, wrong assessment of situation has been made.
It is damn shame that Americans, who are supposed to be the best informed in the world, do not know about Korean men fighting in Nam. Strictly for the US!
I am deeply grateful for what the US has done for Korea. No Korean in right mind ever doubt that.
However, I do not support Koreans kowtowing to the US and assume the position of servants. I do not believe the good people in America want that.
“All men are created equal”.
Let’s respect each other.
For all the heavy breathing about the “alliance”, I think its worth listening to the background music in Asia rather than pissing on Baduk. I think it’s telling us that the US made its decision to dispense with the alliance at least one year ago.
The US is reinforcing its Pacific alliances, bases and capabilities everywhere but in the ROK. We all have heard about the state of the Japanese alliance and contrast that with Korea. The Americans have urged Japan to ditch its McArthur peace constitution in favor of a new American style defense establishment. The Japanese are in fact doing that along with a bunch of other stuff in common, expensive defense such as missile defense and basing a nuclear carrier in Japanese waters. Then there is Guam, the new Pearl Harbor of West Asia, now being built to host more submarines, heavy bombers and the latest fighters.
Then there is Pearl Harbor, growing with naval and air transport being shifted from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Then there is Alaska, gaining the most advanced American weapons for projecting power over northern Asia. It’s all happening outside Korea. While the US deploys stuff to Korea for short stints, its pouring concrete on rebar elsewhere.
Anyone know who said this:
“This defensive perimeter runs along the Aleutians to Japan and then goes to the Ryukyus. We hold important defense positions in the Ryukyu Islands, and these we will continue to hold…. The defensive perimeter runs from the Ryukyus to the Philippine Islands.”
Dean Acheson, 1950, about American Pacific strategy.
It’s Deja Vu allover again.
Baduk,
The relationship between the U.S. and South Korea is not a marriage, it is a partnership, and partnerships are not necessarily equal. In politically incorrect reality, no military partnership between the U.S. and any other nation can really be equal. They can be less unbalanced (U.S.-UK), but not equal.
Does Korea owe the U.S. anything? Consider decades of massive U.S. economic and military aid (the ROK economy was basically funded by the U.S., and this is aid not loans I’m referring to), and tariff free export to the U.S. until the mid-1980s. It was one of the largest welfare projects on Earth, ever. You must be aware of this. The U.S. doesn’t ask anything in return for that, and Korea owes us nothing for it.
But then consider how USFK has allowed Korea to prosper. I believe that Korea does in fact owe the U.S. something for past, present, and future contributions to its national security. Of the most welcomed of payments would be for the government to grow a backbone (and a pair, while they’re at it), and not continue to go down the easy but oh-so-tired anti-US path. That includes abiding by agreements on bases.
Does the U.S. gain something from the partnership. Hell yes it does. Who has more to lose? The ROK, by far. South Korea would also do well not to step on the toes of the U.S. by pissing away its own security, which has an impact outside the well.
No government gives money away for free. Not even America. If some politicians label it as “humane aid”, the amount of money is very small.
Then, there are “economic assistance”. These are strategically determined amount to help the US in one way or another. Basically for national interest, and in many cases indirectly related to national security.
From the very beginning of the US history, it has done that. Yet, they taught elementary school student, “see we are so good that we give money away”. All grown-ups knew that their tax money was not misused. Giving out to other countries like a hippie giving out “good stuff” in the corner.
America is not a stupid country. People are better informed than those of other countries and they know how their tax money is spent. Americans have not given money to Korea for free as many of you insist.
I do not mean America is bad. Quite the opposite. It is the best country in the world. Yet, the media did it job on Americans as well. Selling them lies that Americans are saviors of the dark world(I think the British came up with this lie and sold to Americans). The ivory tower. The only sane country in the world. Somewhat to the level under Nazi Germany.
There are many countries in the world and America is one of them. Yes, I agree with Hilary, the woman I despise, said “the world is a village”. And, Americans in 21th century should learn to get along with people in other countries.
No hicks allowed.
Bush is a great president.
I remember that right after the 9/11, how fearful Americans were. There were constant rumors of another attack. Perhaps bigger than the 9/11.
The 9/11 was a big one. Three thousand people dead. Hussein and many others applauded these assains. They themselves threaten the US pledging more attacks.
Then, president Bush declared “the war on terror”. He said, “we will go where they live”. And, he did.
Now, these sissies say we should not have done that. We should have stayed home and wait for another attack, like sheeps awaiting for slaughter.
Fuck! They, the peaceniks and hippies, won’t stop till they turn Iraq into VietNam.
How soon people forget. MiddleEastern countries, Iraq, Iran and others will not stop till they topple the US. They are mad at the western world and the US is the most prosperous. That is why they attacked the twin tower and killed three thousand innocent Americans, and about ten KoreanAmericans among them.
And, you know what. Even with anti-American sentiment, Korean soldiers are still in Iraq helping the US. You laugh at that. Next year, with new president, Korea can send more troops to Iraq. Much more.
Who needs Korea? Maybe more than you think.
And, Bush is brilliant.
He cannot tell American public everything but anyone who knows about these things know…
Oil is the most important commodity in the world. Oil is the electricity. Most electric plants burn oil to make electricity. Oil runs cars. Oil is paint, furniture, medication and anything that has to do with civilization.
Oil is going up. It briefly hit $4 per gallon last year and it will hit that level this year again.
The country that loses supply of oil will immediately devolve into the third world country. Look at North Korea. Even a country like Japan can degenerate into NK if it loses oil supply.
Iraq is a significant producer of oil.
Withdrawing troops from Iraq? Fucking madness.
Baduk #60 is awesome!
The one-two: “Spook and others,
You guys are like Koreans who only count what they have given, instead of looking at what they have received.” This is like in-his-prime 80’s Tyson giving right taps before….
The knockout: “In late 60s through early 70s, (nobody here seems to remember) Korea became a very important country to the US by sending troops to VietNam. I believe Koreans were the largest foreign army presence in VietNam, other than US Army. Yes, Korean men still suffers from the war wounds. And, some of you are saying what has Korea ever do for the US. Visit nearby Army hospitals and you will meet some Korean VietNam vets who are in wheel chair. Many Korean men died in Nam, repaying the lives the US has given to Korea.”
Fans like me, Baduk, you worry sometimes with talk of killer robots and chicks asking for rape, but this is the shit! Notice the absence of replies?
C’mon Brendon, post #60’s writer is no moron.
Eccentric, yes. Moron, no. Interesting always.
Give him posting privileges, Mr. Marmot. Then we will see some fun.
Yes, Baduk can derail a conversation like none other, with his made-up ‘facts’ and talk of killer robots. He’s the brightest star of the mental ward. All of his imaginary friends think so, too.
“Germany gave an advancement for wages to Korean government for Korean miners and nurses.”
This is true but it was a guarenteed loan. A portion of the wages of the Korean miners and nurses were held back by the German government as “insurance.” These individuals had a very hard time in Germany.
Military and civilian newspapers have ran stories regarding the need to bring in land fill at Camp Humphreys before construction can start on the newly acquired area. The FED engineer said the land fill project would start in early 2007 and would take about a year. This must be done before construction begans. If General Bell is speaking honestly and really expects the move to be completed by/in 2008 he should fire his support staff for not keeping him better informed. As stated earlier he may have other movtives.
By the way, General Campbell is a fine Christian man whom I believe is very honest and sincere.
Zonath, I hereby challenge you to comment on post #60. It’s for fun, don’t get all pissed or huffy.
Is it not a hell of a post? Admit it, it is freaking awesome.
I ws in Vietnan in 1971-1972 and worked with the Korean Marines (I think the two units were the White Tigers and the Blue Dragons). They were some of the toughest guys I ever met. Documents taken from dead NVA regulars stated that they should avoid contact/combat with the Korean marines because they knew they were excellent fighters. I made friends with one Korean sergeant. I believe he was paid on production – base pay plus the number of ears he brought in. After one months outing (normal rotation 28 days in the field 2 days in camp) he had a wad of money big enough to choke a mule.
Sorry – war stories. But anyway, I do appreciate and remember my fellow korean soliders.
And I think Post #61 pisses on this arguments grave…
“I’m an aesthetic at times. Appreciate the beauty of shit in unlikely places”
Well… For starters, a couple of the post’s assertions appear just a bit contradictory. Just look at these gems:
So which was it? Did the US economic aid come from the US’s own self-interest (making sure SK didn’t go to the enemy) or as payback for SK’s contribution to the Vietnam War? Were Korean men fighting to repay the lives the US gave to Korea, or were they doing so because they were paid?
What about that assertion from Baduk that nobody owed anyone anything?
You’re actually right that much of #60 is fairly coherent, and may even contain a salient point or two… But it’s still full of red herring.
In addition, Baduk’s positions seem to shift from post to post, once people point out his faulty, made-up facts:
And then, of course, that’s when Baduk can stay on topic at all:
Sure, #60 may have been a bit of a lucid moment for Baduk, but a single good deed doesn’t excuse a lifetime of bad behavior. After all, even a blind pig finds a truffle every once in awhile.
Zonath,
I had to speak out because it has become fashionable to badmouth president Bush. And, how America should fare from here on.
This is more important than the present discussion. And, Pres. Bush happened to give a very important national address this evening.
He wants to send more troops to Iraq. Most Democrats hippies(I am Dem myself) want to withdraw troops. America must decide.
I think Bush is right. Not only that, I think the US must invade Iran as well. Finish these middleEastern terrorism once and for all.
These stupid liberal democrats think that the US army should stay in America and not meddle with countries outside the US. They got this way after VietNam, which by the way Dem started. Well, the US sort of did that. Then the 9/11 wake up came.
Many of these losers say that the 9/11 is just a fluk. Osama went berjerk and killed three thousand Americans. But, the rest of people are not like that, they say. Well, Islam scholars say different. It is in their religion to attack Christian countries. Especially, the wealthy countries. America is the favorite target.
If the US withdraws from Iraq, more, not less, terrorist attacks will come. More than three thousand people will die.
Are Democrats going to assume responsibility for this? You know the answer. Spin time.
A couple of points. Baduk is correct in his assertion that Koreans were the largest non-US contingent in Vietnam. Ground troops consisted of a KMC Brigade (Blue Dragon Bde), and the ROK Army’s White Horse (9th) Division and Tiger (Capital?) Divisions. They were well respected by both the allies (then termed “Free World Military Forces” FWMF?) and the enemy. In the latter’s case, the VC avoided unnecessary contact with Korean troops because they did everything by the book. Contact with the Koreans generally meant heavier casualties because Koreans stayed in close contact for as long as possible. U.S. practice of the period was to quickly break contact and call in supporting weapons (i.e., Artillery and air strikes), which usually gave the enemy a window of opportunity to escape. I said “unnecessary” because both the VC and NVA would target Korean forces. They were no more afraid of the Koreans than they were of anyone else (i.e., scared shitless while the fighting was going on, but disciplined and determined enough to get in and mix it up). As a mere combat soldier myself,I worked with the Korean 9th Division on occasion. I never saw anyone collecting ears. As for pay, the Koreans, like all FWMF troops (except the Aussies and Kiwis who paid their own way), received U.S. wages while they were in Vietnam. These wages were paid to the country, who distributed it to the troops as they saw fit. Korean soldiers in Vietnam were much better paid than back in Korea, but I understand that the Korean government kept some of that pay. So, Koreans were in Vietnam partially to show solidarity with the U.S., and partially because they perceived it in their own self-interest to be there. If you look at January 1968 alone, you have the attack on the Blue House, the Pueblo Incident, and the Tet Offensive, all within a few weeks. 1968 was not only the major combat year in Vietnam, but the year that North Korea sent the highest number of armed infiltrators into the ROK since the end of the Korean War. I suspect that in both Washington and Seoul, those facts were not considered coincidental, though in truth there may have been zero coordination between the Norks and Norvns.
Not so fast.
Can there be any serious disagreement that in 1968, Park Chung Hee had the Domino Theory very much in mind? You don’t have to accept that theory to agree that Park probably did, and that’s relevant to the question of South Korea’s self-interest. South Korea recognized its interests in cementing strong relations with its most important military, economic, and diplomatic benefactor, and to prevent a Communist surge in East Asia. The years 1965-1975 bought South Korea and many other nations in East Asia time to improve and stabilize their economic and political situations.
I would not fault the South Koreans for the intelligent recognition that their interests coincide with ours, or for recognizing the importance of building good will with America. I criticize South Korea today for not recognizing those things, because that’s bad for both countries. In Iraq, South Korea only agreed to send its military to a place where its troops served no military purpose, and only after making obnoxious demands that we go light on North Korea in return. It fiddled with troop numbers or dropped withdrawal hints in the press to extract apparent concessions. Then came the fiasco at the APEC Summit in Pusan.
At that price, I’d offer my heartfelt thanks to the South Korean volunteers in the Zaitun “Division” and politely decline the offer.
Not so fast.
Can there be any serious disagreement that in 1968, Park Chung Hee had the Domino Theory very much in mind? You don’t have to accept that theory to agree that Park probably did, and that’s relevant to the question of South Korea’s self-interest. South Korea recognized its interests in cementing strong relations with its most important military, economic, and diplomatic benefactor, and to prevent a Communist surge in East Asia. The years 1965-1975 bought South Korea and many other nations in East Asia time to improve and stabilize their economic and political situations.
I would not fault the South Koreans for the intelligent recognition that their interests coincide with ours, or for recognizing the importance of building good will with America. I criticize South Korea today for not recognizing those things, because that’s bad for both countries.
In Iraq, South Korea only agreed to send its military to a place where its troops served no military purpose, and only after making obnoxious demands that we go light on North Korea in return. It fiddled with troop numbers or dropped withdrawal hints in the press to extract apparent concessions. Then came the fiasco at the APEC Summit in Pusan.
At that price, I’d offer my heartfelt thanks to the South Korean volunteers in the Zaitun “Division” and politely decline the offer.
In Iraq, South Korea only agreed to send its military to a place where its troops served no military purpose, and only after making obnoxious demands that we go light on North Korea in return. It fiddled with troop numbers or dropped withdrawal hints in the press to extract apparent concessions. Then came the fiasco at the APEC Summit in Pusan.
At that price, I’d offer my heartfelt thanks to the South Korean volunteers in the Zaitun “Division” and politely decline the offer.
Baduk, do you remember the IMF?
The Koreans pay only a pittance of what other countries pay to have American watchdogs in their back yard. I love the attitude that Korea did it all on their own. The problem is the 380 culture that resides in Korean government and the NGO’s today. All the people who grew up with the “rail against the status quo, no matter who it is” mentality are in power today. Koreans are taking marching orders from people who have never paid income tax.
So is the wave of pro/anti America sinusoidal? Who knows?
The answer to why we are here taking all the Bravo Sierra from the Koreans lies in the land of Kimuche (Shout-out to Mr. Carr). If you all would like to hand back the Bushido blade we can end this exercise in a hurry.
We are over here getting rich off of all the down-trodden Ajuma’s and Adoshi’s.
Ha, Ha, Charade you are!(Shout out to Pink Floyd)
railwaycharm,
Yes, I know. I heard that Pres. Clinton OK the loan to Korea with Japanese government vouching for the amount. Or, something to that effect. Maybe the Japanese are not out-and-out evil people. Only when they tried to take Dokto.^^
Yes, I do believe there is pro/anti-American cycle. And, Koreans change fast. They align themselves with winning team. No backbone at all.
This is why we all have to be patient just one more year. Next administration will be very pro-American. Actually, I worry about it being too much so that it may sell itself too cheap.
Just as I predicted from a couple of years ago, the tide is turning. Most SK people are getting tired of “sunshiners” who helped North Korea to build nuclear bombs.
I like to thank some posters for remembering the names of two Korean divisions, the WhiteHorse and the Tiger even after forty plus years. Yes, they are paid but they were not simple mercenaries.
When Pres. Park sent them over, he told the soldiers
1) We must thank America which has saved us from the tyranny of Communism
2) We have to pay back the American lives lost in Korean peninsula
3) We need the money to rebuild our country
4) It will be a good opportunity to gain some real combat experience
Korea really trust America, then. However, ever since Nixon sold out Taiwan to help out Coca Cola company, no Asian country can trust America as the reliable friend.
Still, soldiers from two countries trust each other as they have fought side-by-side in Nam, as some have verified in this post.
Yes, Korea will turn around. And, we will fight together in Iran next year, to rid of Islam terrorists from the face of the earth.
Baduk, great response! I hope you are correct. I hope the channel from the Han to Busan gets built and the Blue house gets it’s sh*t together.
Origami, you are an ass and I did not you are king of this thread. Kind of rich, anyhow, coming from someone who has Zhang Ziyi as an avatar (Although I commend your taste in women.)
I am an American of Irish ancestry and my wife is a mainland Chinese. If you have ever seen any of my previous posts you would realize that I, in no way shape or form, condone the communist government here. And if you had read my post I don’t do it there either. I stand by what I said. Mao was an ass and a criminal for getting involved, but my point was that people died–lots of people, people on both sides that were not Korean.
Don’t let the wool get pulled over your eyes. The Koreans did help out in Vietnam, but who won that war?! Korean companies have been WELL REWARDED BY THE US for helping out too. Due to Korean involvement in Vietnam and Iraq they have been rewarded with very good construction contracts and the like. A lot of cash has been made by Koreans because of this. Here’s one example Koreans don’t mention. Did you know that by 1966, contracts in Vietnam made up about 40% of Korea’s foreign exchange? Something else Baduk has never mentioned is that in 1967, Korean employees working in Vietnam were unhappy with the quality of their rice and some other issues. They actually rioted for four days in Nha Trang and Cam Ranh Bay. They KILLED one American civilian who had nothing to do with their plight. To be fair, 3 Koreans were also killed. Koreans always say that they’ve paid the US back because of Vietnam and Iraq, but it just isn’t so. Everyday the US is in Korea means stability. With everyday of stability come a better life. The Vietnam War ended OVER 31 years ago. The Korean War hasn’t ended. The ROKs had 4624 KIA in just under eleven YEARS in RVN. The US alone had over 33,600 KIA in THREE YEARS of fight the Koreans war for them. Not to mention the casualties sustained since the the cease fire. US service men and women are still becoming casualties trying to keep the peace here. It’s time for the US to leave Korea to Koreans.
For those who are interested in how the real world turns, the following tidbit provides some insight.
http://energy.seekingalpha.com/article/23936
You still think the US should pull out of Iraq and leave the MiddleEast to Russia, China and EU? They will chock the US in five years with oil embargos, with Chavez joining in.
Expect $10 per gallon in the US if the US pulls out.
We need to finish the job!
Baduk said:
It is damn shame that Americans, who are supposed to be the best informed in the world, do not know about Korean men fighting in Nam. Strictly for the US!
…And a shame too that South Koreans, who are supposed to be the best educated in the world, do not know or care about Filipino men fighting in Korea. Strictly for South Korea!
For the total personnel end strengths of other-than-ROK-and-US member nations of the UN forces during the Korean war (sampled at 3 different times), see this link from one of the volumes of the US Army official Korean War history:
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/boo.....e/appa.htm, scroll down a bit to Appendix A-2.
No casualty figures given; these could be in the text somewhere, or in an appendix or the text of one of the other volumes.
Somebody above said “Most electric plants burn oil to make electricity.” That didn’t look right when I first saw it but it took me a while to find the numbers for US electrical production. Not sure if that comment was meant to pertain to the whole world or just the US but per the Department of Energy oil only accounts for 3% of electrical power production in the US.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/fuelelectric.html.
50% of US consumption of oil/oil-basd products is wrapped up in standard motor gas with jet fuel, diesel fuel (trucking and shipping mostly), residential heating, and LPG collectively making up the other 50%. http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/in.....mption.htm
Mr Chips,
I stand corrected. Yes, only 3% for the US.
However, in the future, coal burning and nuclear power will continue to be targeted by environmental groups. Only probable increase will be in oil burning.
People, in general, do not know about oil. They usually think alternative energy sources are available. No. Solar, alcohol and wind powers are all pipedreams.
There are only oil, natural gas, coal and nuclear. However, oil is not only energy source; it is plastics, fertilizers and pharmaceuticals.
Oil is the most important resource at this time.
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