In a scoop, the Segye Ilbo is reporting that in his meeting with Japanese Prime Minister Abe Shinzo during the APEC summit in Hanoi on Nov. 18, President Roh Moo-hyun proposed that the East Sea (otherwise known as the Sea of Japan) be called instead the “Sea of Peace.”
A high-ranking government source said Roh prefaced the suggestion by saying it was only an idea and an unofficial one at that.
According to the source, the Japanese were caught off guard by the suggestion and avoided an immediate reply, saying only that they needed time to think about it.
What is perhaps more interesting (if only to those unfamiliar with Roh) about Roh’s suggestion is that he reportedly failed to consult Cheong Wa Dae or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs before making it.
No additional discussion of the “Sea of Peace” idea took place during Dec. 27’s meeting between the Korean and Japanese foreign ministers.
Cheong Wa Dae is staying quiet about all this, explaining that it does not, as a rule, reveal what was said during closed-door summit meetings. The Grand National Party, of course, is slamming Roh for appearing to compromise on the “East Sea” name.
102 Comments
Damn, if that had happened a couple of weeks ago, G. Bevers might still have a job.
Damn you are fast, Koehler! You just beat me to it!
There’s his Nobel Peace Prize in the bag.
It would be premature to change the sea’s name to “Sea of Peace” before resolving the Dokdo/Takeshima dispute, not to mention the North Korean problem. I can imagine the following headline: “Korean and Japanese Naval Forces Clash in the Sea of Peace.”
Actually, I think Roh’s suggestion could be the key to solving both the sea name dispute and the Dokdo/Takeshima dispute at the same time. Japan should make the following offer to Korea:
Well, it would be some pretty impressive irony. But irony aside, it’s not a completely horrible idea, which is a complete surprise, coming from Pres. No.
Or….perish the thought…North Korean nuclear warhead fired into Sea of Peace
No Korean President will ever allow for the Dokdo/Takeshima dispute to go before the ICJ. It would be political suicide. Why would Korean risk giving up what it already has in its possesion? When Koreans say “독도는우리땅” they are right. They are right in the sense that the land is currently in their possesion and whether it is rightfully theirs or not they don’t plan on giving it up.
If Korea goes anywhere near the ICJ there will be mayhem on the streets of Seoul.
Sea of Peace? Why should we cede our rights to what is the name of a sea in our Mother Tongue? If English speakers wish to change it we can, but those who commit the sin of lallation should mind their own business.
Koreans and Japanese can call it whatever they like, and we can ignore them no matter what their decision. Calling it the Sea of Japan is for our convenience, not for the nationalism of either nation.
I agree 110% with peninsular aborigine. Therefore I am abandoning all my (to date impressively lackadaisical) efforts to force Koreans to call it “Sea of Japan” when speaking about the East Sea in their language — but in return I’d appreciate it if I could be left alone about what to call it in my mother tongue. Bother the French instead!
While we are in the spirit of reconciliation,
Dok-a-Shima?
Take-Dokto?
Anyone? … No? ok . . .
peninsular aborigine, well I guess you can call it anything you want. The point is what to call it internationally. So the Koreans call the sea one name, the japanese call it another. Who is to say who is right? This is why non-Koreans thin the East sea Argument is absurb. To an outsider, both parties appear the same. Blame Korea for staying a hermit and not getting up off its ass and meji-ing up like Japan did. Otherwise maybe “Sea of Japan” would not have been set in stone like it did. I’m impressed Japans’ representatives even said, “we’ll think about it”. Thats’ pretty nice of them.
Nobongpil,
Negotiation is give and take. Almost all of the world’s maps say “Sea of Japan”? Why should the Japanese give that up unless they get something in return?
As for “Dokdo,” yes, Koreans are sitting on the rocks, but it is not the rocks that are valuable. It is the sea around them. If Korea wins in the International Court of Justice (ICJ), she will get undisputed rights to that fishing area. Isn’t that worth the risk of losing in the ICJ? Besides, if Korea’s claims on “Dokdo” are so strong, what risks are there?
Peninsular Aborigine,
You do not think Japanese will agree to a name change to win peace with Koreans and also possibly regain Takeshima/Dokdo?
Taquito would sound better…
Isn’t that pretty much the Japanese way of saying ‘oh HELL no’?
I wonder what the “Great Leader” is going to say about this.
“As for “Dokdo,” yes, Koreans are sitting on the rocks, but it is not the rocks that are valuable. It is the sea around them. If Korea wins in the International Court of Justice (ICJ), she will get undisputed rights to that fishing area. Isn’t that worth the risk of losing in the ICJ? Besides, if Korea’s claims on “Dokdo” are so strong, what risks are there?”
Because it’s pointless. Korea has it, and that’s pretty much makes it Korean. It’s kind of like Canada going to the ICJ with the US over the control of the Northwest Passage. Canada doesn’t need to entertain the idea that they’d be wrong since it’s obviously in Canada waters.
Of course, from the English-speaker’s perspective we could care less what they think the sea should be called either. If Korea and Japan got together to urge us all to change to “Sea of Peace”, I’d still be dead before it caught on everywhere.
Even after applying the partisan politicking discount to the GNP’s outburst, it’s indicative of the fact that resentment-driven ethno-racist chauvinist nationalism is the coin of the realm here and not just the hobby horse of one political party here.
Maybe not; it may mean that they’d like to talk to the incoming GNP administration about it after the next election - although it’s probably not an idea that is going to get very far with the GNP (much as they might pragmatically be attracted to it), both for the reason cited above, and because their doing so would open them up to a sentimental backlash orchestrated by the Uri Twins, Kim Gone Fishing and Chung Dumb Young and whatever political creature they manage to create out of the current round of political miscegenation that is just getting underway on a topic that is the GNP’s soft underbelly (these are the successors to the guys - and in some cases, the guys themselves - who made the treaty with Japan that was supposed to put paid to the historical pot stirring that the Korean left has been indulging itself in throughout the Great Pretender’s term in office.
So basically the potential names brought to the table by Korea are: East Sea, Blue Sea, Sea of Korea, Sea of Corea, East Korean Sea, East Corean Sea, and now Sea of Peace. While Japan will settle for only Sea of Japan. At a glance, it would seam as though Korea is much more willing to negotiate then Japan as Japan offers only one answer compared to a small handful of names from Korean scholars, politicians, and random people on the internet, but really Korea (I’m lumping everyone from scholars random people on the internet and politicians together into one here, but please bear with me) doesn’t care what the name is as long as it’s not Sea of Japan. Won’t this have the same negative effect as the last 3 times they offered different names because after all this only shows that the claim doesn’t care how legitimate or illegitimate any of the names are, just so long as it’s not Sea of Japan?
How about “Sea of cute kittens”? Surely that will trick the international community into supporting an anti-Japanese ultranationalist policy.
Sperwer,
There are two main reasons behind his offer: he is trying to repair the damage he’s done with Dokdo (the number of Japanese tourists coming to South Korea has sharply decreased since 2005, which has had some impact on the Korean tourism industry), and he’s sending an indirect message to North Korea not to go forward with their threats to go forward with more nuclear tests if they don’t want to push South Korea closer to Japan.
“not to go forward with threats to go forward”…ouch. I should have read it before posting.
… or Roh’s just desperately trying to create legacies so that he will be remembered for something other than his incompetency.
Yes, in ‘damage’ I also include the damage he has done to how history will remember him.
SGIK:
I’m not sure. The falloff in Japanese tourism has more to do with the appreciation of the Won. It’s really cut into the spending power of the Japanese, including in particular the young “office ladies” who make up a big percentage of the Japanese tourists. I’ve a friend who owns one of the three biggest inbound tour operations, and he and his father before him have been doing business for forty years in Japan; the foregoing is really his explanation.
As for the supposed message to the NORKS, it’s way to oblique, if it’s there at all, and I don’t think it is.
Roh is a very simple guy - too simple for his own cleverness at times. I think his immediate motive is simply to create some kind of feel-good legacy for himself. He’s not going to get a NORK summit, so some kind of rapprochement with Japan seems in order. I don;t think Japan is going to play.
Sea of Hawks.
I much prefer “Sea of Korpan” (or - Japea) myself. As for the squabble, Koreans have a right to lobby for name change. If they can convince enough of the world, who knows? But what really frosts my buzzer is listening to the Anglophone briefers at USFK describe “Hwanghae” as the “West Sea”. Hello, don’t any of you clowns learn even a smidgen of Korean? Hwanghae does NOT translate into “West Sea”. (Hint: Hwang = Yellow) Listen to what your counterparts call it! Or better, look at the name of that province sitting just across the DMZ to the west.
I say they should both undertake massive land reclammation projects that will only end when Japan and South Korea share a border. Just to make it interesting, they should make it a race. The land each country reclaims becomes its territory, regardless of territorial waters.
gbevers,
I’m glad you mentioned the word valuable. The true value of Dokdo lies not in the resouces EEZ sea zone which would legally fall under Korea’s sovereignty should the ICJ side with Korea. Commercial value, yes. Though precious fishing and perhaps natural gas lie in the disputed area the true value of Dokdo to Koreans doesn’t lie with these commercial provisions.
The islets intricately embody Korean nationalism to the point (as I’m sure you by now well know) where this dispute symbolizes centuries of illwill and humiliation at the hands of the Japanese and are a marked symbol of Korean triumph and pseudo-conquest, veiled by ownership claims. You might say that to Korean Dokdo helps put the 대 in 대한민국.
The rocks are more valubale to Koreans than the resources in the potential EEZ. Korean claims on Dokdo are irrelevent. Nothing is worth the risk. No Korean in a position to consent to the dispute going to the ICJ would ever give such consent. It would be political and social suicide. There would be mayhem in the streets even if the thought was slightly entertained.
Darin explained it very well here, and Roh seems to have confirmed it. Many Koreans do not seem to care what the sea is called, as long as it is not called “Sea of Japan.” That shows that many Koreans are motivated more by anti-Japanese feelings than by any desire to correct some historical error.
As for alternative names, I liked the one suggested by a Harry Potter fan on this site: “The Sea That Shall Not Be Named.”
I’m tired of hearing and reading what Mr. president of Korea and his staff have done and said. Does Mr.No think of him as the crowned head of Kingdom of Korea rather than the (simple) head of Democratic Republic of Korea? Why doesn’t he and his staff approach this matter with fine tactics?
Actually, it was meant as a Cthulhu mythos reference rather than as a Harry Potter reference, but I suppose that doesn’t really matter.
That’s about right, and is remarkably pathetic. “Triumph” inheres in the uncontested occupation of a few square meters of guano encrusted rock. Pinning the 대 on this donkey is just picking a festering wound with a dirty fingernail and will only inflame more self-loathing, because they all know there’s no real triumph here.
The entire issue is silly. It’s always been called Sea of Japan in the English language. Only recently did Korea get it’s panties wet over the issue and then they insist it be universally recognized in English as the East Sea. This is the one name that Japan will never recognize as it lies directly west of Japan. Imagine the U.S. calling the Pacific the East Ocean. It would never happen.
If the Koreans had been wise to begin with and wanted another name besides Sea of Japan, they should have came up with an intelligent compromise to begin with instead of something Japan would reject outright. Morons.
Japan, as usual, shows they are the more mature country by not trying to remame the universally recognized Korea Strait. The ROK is not quite ready yet to sit at the grownups table.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korea_Strait
President Roh still has some respect left in my books, but I still think my suggestion is better:
Change the name of the Sea of Japan to the East Sea (complete with a footnote to distinguish it from the other “east seas” around the world), thereby pacifying the Koreans.
The Korean Strait, however, runs between Japan and Korea, but Japan has fairly legitimate (although not uncontested)possession of the largest island in the middle, Daemado (Tsushima). Therefore, the Korean Strait should be changed to the Japanese Strait. It’s only fair.
Or, Korea could be happy with their name on the map, and Japan with theirs, and attention could be turned towards more profitable things, like bickering over uninhabitable rocks.
Isn’t “Sea of Japan” so named because Japan island seperates the inner sea from the Pacific Ocean?
I understand that “Sea of” makes it look like Japan has the ownership and this irritates Koreans, but really, it’s a wrong direction to put all that nationalistic energy into.
If it really bothers them, maybe they should lobby in international community to rename all “Sea of” to “Sea sepearated by” or …something similar in French
Why not call it The Sea of Piss?! Yeah, silly I know. If the name Sea of Japan changes then the name The Korea Strait should be changed. I can just hear the hypocritical arguements now.
Brendon Carr wrote:
Brendon:
Yes, okay, and the same should apply to the “Korean Strait” - “Strait of Peace”.
Or should we rather rename it the “Tsushima Strait” ? Sounds better, methinks…
I have said it before:
Sea of love = 사랑해, although in Japanese it doesn’t work as well.
or the 미안해
How about this as a solution? Govt’ of Japan: “We would be most pleased to agree to a name change of the body of water in question. ‘Sea of Korea’ would be perfectly acceptable, and we will of course be willing to sign a treaty to this effect with the future democratic Seoul-based government of the unified Korean peninsula.”
I believe the Japanese would be more than willing to trade the Sea of Japan for a sea of fire, don’t you? In the meantime, it would get the issue off the front burner…
How about this proposal, lets rename it the Northeast China Sea.
Just food for thought.
the name needs to be changed because korea was not consulted when the sea was named. doesn’t matter if english is your native tongue since english is the language of the world. also, talking about japanese maturity is really neither here nor there since we are only talking about a slightly larger degree of maturity, and that ain’t much.
btw, if japan is so mature, why do they care so much that the koreans are trying to change it? if it’s no big deal, why do they and you, the nasty expat, care so much?
sooner of later, korea is going to get it’s way and it don’t matter how much you whine, expat.
a conversation that took place a week ago between me and this young white girl at work:
p: i just discovered youtube so now i am investigating the malaysians cause i never had the chance to do so in the past.
g: really? what are watching?
p: i’m watching these clips of malaysian idol. it’s a trip. the language sounds nice. in fact, i listened to one song over and over. i think i can actually sing it now.
g: hey, maybe you should go over there and try. you could be a rockstar!
p: yeah, i think i’m a bit too old for that.
g: hey, that reminds me; i knew this guy, right? he was like 6′5″. a very large guy. but he wasn’t attractive. in fact, he was ugly. anyway, he went to live in japan for a year, and when he got back. he was telling us how all the women were crawling all over him. he said he was treated like a rock star.
p: yeah, those kind of guys who go and live in asia always strike me as fourth class white guys who couldn’t get a date here.
g: exactly. that’s what i was thinking when he told me that story.
see? even your sisters know.
Jing wrote:
Only if China agrees to take the Korean peninsula off our hands and incorporate into the Chaoxian Autonomous Prefecture.
Roh Moo Hyun’s world–>
To Koizumi, “Hey, how dare you have peaceful meetings with KJI and send him rice! I will now give you the cold shoulder!”
To Abe, “Hey aren’t you the same cool guy who has been talking about Japanese military build up? Abeyah, saranghanda! (Roh does his heart gesture arms on his head) I think I will change the name of East Sea.”
Is he really a left wing nut? Or just a nut? Alas this is at least an improvement, and I heartily welcome it.
Pawi,
White guys who come to Asia can’t get dates back home? Really, you’ve sunk to new lows.
Why should Japan and the English-speaking world change the name of the Sea of Japan to something as silly as the Sea of Peace?
What is the matter with the Koreans! I know they have a lot of resentment from the Japanese colonial period but this dispute is embarrassing. Imagine the French demanding that the English-speaking countries called the English Channel “La Manche”. I will never understand why the Koreans, unlike the French, are not just happy with calling the Sea of Japan whatever they want in their own language and leaving the rest alone. To me, the Korean reaction suggest the Koreans are suffering from a serious inferiority complex and need this name change as some sort of victory against the Japanese to make up for historic defeats. I am sure that the Sea of Japan will remain the Sea of Japan for the rest of my lifetime
How about “sea of ignorance” since this seems to be what truly separates Korea from Japan and drives hyper-nationalism, in general.
Roh can add this to the long list of quixotic, idiotic “proposals” he’s made as president that never came to pass.
I don’t see why everyone thinks Japan is so much more mature than Korea here. Japan is just as ultra-nationalistic if not more than Korea. They are in their own ultra-nationalistic phase right now. Their PM can’t give upa trip to the war shrine to pay respects to WW2 Dead, even though it really pisses off its neighbors, because of nationalistic pride. I just think this ‘Japan is more mature’ than Korea has no play in this argument at all. They are both squabbling over Tokdo.
But I did like the suggestion of the 사랑해 or 미안해. That woudl work…
Roh’s sea name proposal isn’t going over well with Korean netizens either. On a message board linked to the story at the Chosun Ilbo, the most popular commenters are calling him a 미친 놈!
Do you have any proof for what you are saying? There are ulta-nationalist and xenophobes in Japan and every other country but that’s not relevant; you will have to present some serious facts before you suggest that anti-Korean sentiment in Japan is anywhere near as strong as anti-Japanese sentiment in Korea - good luck looking for it.
Also, Japan is not demanding that the world rename the Korea Strait, at least not that I know of. Regardless of whether you support the Japanese or Korean claim to Dokdo it would be silly to deny that there is no basis at all for the Japanese claim (you can argue over whether that basis is enough), so I don’t see why they are silly for pressing a claim to territory they might actually own under internation law - pressing a territorial claim that may have a legal basis isn’t being childish its just what a normal country would do. Trying to force the world’s nation to remove the word Japan from a sea is silly, especially since nothing is preventing from calling it whatever they like.
^^ My comment above was directed at Clark66
“sooner of later, korea is going to get it’s way and it don’t matter how much you whine, expat.”
Yeah right, Korea will prevail because of its fighting spirit. What a waste of time and effort. Why beat your head against a wall for something as unimportant and stupid as this?
“Japan is just as ultra-nationalistic if not more than Korea. They are in their own ultra-nationalistic phase right now.”
Bullshite. A few politicians are talking nationalism, but your average Japanese couldn’t care less about such minor and petty issues as the ‘Sea of Japan’ or Dokto/Takeshima. Having recently done a stint in the country, I never heard either of these issues mentioned even once in class or on tv. In fact, many Japanese are interested in and admire Korean things (eg. a modest though notable number of Korean tv programs and open acknowledgement by students of the things that Japan has borrowed from Korea). I didn’t detect a note of hostility to Korea (North Korea is another story). I saw nothing remotely close to the uber-nationalism I’ve seen in Korea (other than a few black vans outside a couple of shrines and some of the laughable/ridiculous things in Yasakuni).
“Roh’s sea name proposal isn’t going over well with Korean netizens either. On a message board linked to the story at the Chosun Ilbo, the most popular commenters are calling him a 미친 놈! ”
It’s not just the name itself that gets them. I’d say some of the shock comes from that he made such an unexpected offer without consulting anyone, and that he already had a name all picked out to boot.
“Roh’s sea name proposal isn’t going over well with Korean netizens either. On a message board linked to the story at the Chosun Ilbo, the most popular commenters are calling him a 미친 놈! ”
It’s not just the name itself that gets them. I’d say some of the shock comes from the fact that he made such an unexpected offer without consulting anyone, and that he already had a name all picked out to boot.
It’s really pretty wild how Roh still seems to view himself as a representative of Korea in a fairly ‘personal’ way, and not as head of state of the nation, and so he keeps acting like this, just saying whenever he thinks at the time. I suppose that “acting presidential” just seems inappropriate to his lifelong-leftist mind…
And I am sure that Dokdo will remain as Dokdo as Korean territory for the rest of my lifetime.
Korean does not expect much from him anymore. He is unpredictable and untouchable one. I just hope the time really flies 2X faster.
This has indeed become one of the really tedious controversies; now that Koreans have succeeded in spreading the word around that they have a different name that they prefer to use for this body of water (and gotten some acknowledgment of that on international websites and in some atlases and guidebooks), they should generally give it a rest to avoid looking ridiculous — because nothing more than this is ever likely to be accomplished.
In my own writings, working for the MCT & KNTO and advising of other international writers/publishers, what seems proper to me is a stepped-gradation based on scale.
For example, when writing about Naksan-sa, I say it’s located right on the “/Donghae/ [East Sea]“;
and when writing about the larger scale of Korea’s East Coast, use “/Donghae/ [East Sea] (a.k.a. Sea of Japan) or “(known internationally as the Sea of Japan) or a shorter variation if necessary;
and when writing about Korea in general to a Korea-focused audience, use “East Sea (Sea of Japan)”;
and when writing about Northeast Asia with focus on Korea, use Sea of Japan (East Sea);
and when writing about global topics to an international audience, or about Japan to a Japan-focused audience, just use Sea of Japan.
But I suppose that’s too complicated to satisfy much of anybody… Tho it’s the only “solution” I know of that is appropriate.
sanshinseon, rather than go through all that “gradation” why don’t you just tell the government agencies what you wrote: “give it a rest.” It’s a trivial issue and Roh has demonstrated what a lightweight he is compared to Abe by bringing it up personally.
The press have been suspiciously silent on the U.S.-Mexico dispute over the Gulf of Mexico. I wonder how that’s going, seeing as how it is such a huge slap in the face to us Miguks.
For those people who seems to be calling Korea’s claim over East Sea stupid are ignorant.
Korea was ruled by Japan when they took the name “Sea of Japan” to be officialised by the IHO therefore, Korea had no say in this matter. For those who did not know, many Japanese people in those days used to call the Pacific Ocean the “Great Sea of Japan” while calling the East Sea “Sea of Chosun[Korea]“.
Korea is not planning/wanting for its name to be stuck on the name of the sea. It just wants everyone to know that they had no say in this judgement.
Despite this, I totally disagree with the K-Pres on this issue. It’s making the Korean claim less stronger… how stupid can he get?
‘you’ve sunk to new lows!’
really? where were you and your indignation when doggiebert informed me my ma waz a ho? this indignation of yours, it is selective, no?
’such trivial issue as yasukuni.’ soldout or somejerk in korea
do you think thirty million asain dead is trivial? i don’t, even if you do. AND even if the majority of the thirty million dead are chinese. i don’t care.
For a long time, I thought that giving cars to Koreans was the stupidest thing we had done.
Now I understand that teaching them to read English was the stupidest thing we’d ever done.
We gotta start over.
“‘you’ve sunk to new lows!’
really? where were you and your indignation when doggiebert informed me my ma waz a ho? this indignation of yours, it is selective, no? ”
I don’t read every single thread or post, you know. Besides, I don’t see how that could ever excuse your own behavior.
And I’m deeply sorry I had to be the one to break that to you.
Sometimes, pawikirogi says things I’ve wanted to say myself.
I think it’s unethical to release his email address to anybody, no matter what pawi chooses to say.
Pawi may say offensive things to some group of people, but dogbertt and shakuhachi do plenty of offending themselves, and they never apologize, either.
Pawi makes expat a bad word.
Dogbertt makes kyopo sound like a bad word, too.
JK / WJK:
Sorry to tell you, mate, the task of vilifying Gyopo would be much too big for Dogbert to handle it alone. But he is assisted by large chunks of the Gyopo community. It is the way these people are behaving which makes it so easy for Dogbertt to pick upon them…
“Some jerk in Korea”? What’s with the almost pathological tendency to revert to childish insults? I know you can’t help it, so at least try to keep your damn facts straights. Where did I mention “yasukani”? Certainly not in this thread. You want to know my opinion on the Yasukani shrine? I rememeber when Koizumi was trying to get elected. He painted himself as a progressist, as a rebel, with his long hair and his obsession with American music… but he still found time to pander for the votes of the old nationalists. I hope Abe has
the good judgementthe balls to do otherwise. Heck, I hope he removes the ashes of the known war criminals who are there and throw them in the “Sea of Peace”.“such trivial issue as yasukuni.’ soldout or somejerk in korea”
Pawi, have you lost it? where did you get this from? As usual, it seems that you make up some idiotic quote that you then attribute to a white expat.
@pawikirogi from United States
Even our “sisters” know that we could not get a date with a white woman ? I, just speaking for myself, haven’t got a sister so how am I supposed to know what she would think ?
I am, however, convinced that I could, even now at the mature age of 41, easily get more dates in my native Romania than I could possibly handle. But did it ever occur to you that this might not be what I want, or, for that matter, ever have wanted ?
I guess I had better stick to my Korean wife, Romanian (or German) chicks are just too exotic for me. I am just not daring enough for venturing into unknown territory…
How about The Sea of Who Cares What Korea Thinks? Ah well, maybe that’s too long.
Korean guys like to say white guys couldn’t get a girl back home because the Korean guys are insecure, plain and simple. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard Korean guys say “white” guys are stealing “their” women. Notice it’s always “their” women, like they actually own the women. How is it possible to steal a woman anyway? I guess I’ve seen some Russian hookers that were probably stolen by the Korean mafia. This blame game seems to be the Korean way of things from what I can tell. It’s always the fault of the Japanese, Americans or foreigners in general. By-the-way, I know of almost a dozen couples in which a Korean man is either dating or married to a “white” girl. One of those guys is one of my best friends.
SomeguyinKorea,
It’s “Yasukukni”, and there are no ashes.
It is not a grave shrine.
In any case, the problem with Yasukuni is just the difference of mentality and cultural background. Japanese don’t kick the dead. They’re dead, they’re hotoke, you wish them peace and rest.
China and Korea and the rest of the world should just keep their nose out of other countries religious practice, and I think Abe is taking the right approach of not talking about whether he goes or not.
Isn’t the corollary of the “loser white guy can’t get a date at home” argument an implied admission that the local brothers just aren’t getting the job done, to be outdone by these losers? I’m not sure that’s the argument I’d want to be making.
Snow, what’s even funnier is that I’ve previously made it clear to him that I’m not white.
Shadkt, it’s “yasukuni shrine”, not “yasuskukni”. Notice that I had put “yusakani” in quotation marks in my previous post.
In any case, I was meerily trying to make a point with the use of a little bit of humor. I could have just has easily said he should thrown the ‘Book of Souls’ in the sea, but I wasn’t trying to offend. Besides, there is nothing wrong with a burial at sea.
Considering that the South Korean flag is composed of nothing but Chinese symbols and “Japan” is just the Portugese bastardization of the Chinese “Riben,” that might be just as appropriate.
Sea of Bevers?
OK, it’s finally time to call it the South Siberian Sea. There, is everyone happy?
‘I don’t read every single thread or post, you know. Besides, I don’t see how that could ever excuse your own behavior.’
it doesn’t excuse my behavior; it makes my behavior par for the course. please read comment 65. do you have anything to say to him? i’m looking for consistancy. so far, your behavior is inconsistant with your faux-huff’n'puff. get back to me when you become an adult.
Western European languages already use a very similar name for another body of water.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap.....a-Name.php
intersting that the article says korea has been successful these last couple of years in getting map makers to use ‘east sea’ as an alternate. not in your life time? we’ll see.
Brendon wrote:
“‘I don’t read every single thread or post, you know. Besides, I don’t see how that could ever excuse your own behavior.’
it doesn’t excuse my behavior; it makes my behavior par for the course. please read comment 65. do you have anything to say to him? i’m looking for consistancy. so far, your behavior is inconsistant with your faux-huff’n’puff. get back to me when you become an adult. ”
As I was saying, you’ve got a patholigical tendency to revert to insults. It’s nice to see that in such a chaotic world, some things are still predictable.
My ‘faux huff’n puff’? Strange, I thought you were the one doing all the huffing and puffing here.
pawikirogi,
East Sea was simply added as an alternative on the maps along with Sea of Japan. Don’t get the idea that this indicates some kind of newfound power on Korea’s part. It’s so because the regulations state that if the name of a body of water is contested, both names must be included on the map. In other words, they convinced no one to use East Sea over Sea of Japan, they just reminded them to follow the rules.
There’s also the Sea of Tranquility, but that’s on the moon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_Tranquillitatis
3S always works!
‘Isn’t the corollary of the “loser white guy can’t get a date at home” argument an implied admission that the local brothers just aren’t getting the job done, to be outdone by these losers? I’m not sure that’s the argument I’d want to be making.’
but it is the argument i’m making. what do i care what this says about korean guys? i’m more interested in what it says about guys like you, brendon. but i will give you a warm fuzzy; korean men could learn quite a bit from the white man on how to treat a lady. women are suckers for romance. that’s something mr white lerned long ago and thus, has better directions on how to get to the mother lode.
as i recall, japan already started naming underwater structures in that disputed part of that disputedly-named sea.
according to korea’s claim to dokdo (possession is four fifths of the law), wouldn’t japan be setting precedence for possession of the seabeds there through discovery and charting?
and what a warm fuzzy it is knowing that romance is just a way to sucker women for you.
Pawi, it’s pretty clear you’re putting us on. Whatever…But, if you’re also Baduk, you’re in need of a new hobby.
‘it’s pretty clear you’re putting us on.’
really? how? you mean because you think it, it makes it so? i meant what i wrote. btw, some-aho-inkorea, lookie here:
‘i always imagined pawi as a one handed typist…’ brenden
i suppose that’s not a new low in your book, huh? but calling you ugly is, do i have that right?
man, what a creep.
I wonder if pawi keeps a voodoo doll of Brendon at his desk, sticking in pins as he types one-handed.
He does seem to have a special hard-on for me.
Come, come now - these ejaculatory responses are a stain on this blog.
Pawi,
You need to learn to differentiate between personal attacks and racist comments. Brendon’s was a personal attack. I really don’t have to defend you, especially if you get out of your way to provoke it. Racist comments are a different matter, especially if they are devoid of sarcasm or humour, such as yours.
*Sigh* I’m sure this has been discussed before, but here goes.
‘Sea of Peace’ is doublespeak. The problem with naming things after emotions or abstract political concepts is that irony slips in when the geography does not live up to its name. It may also cause some degree of confusion considering that the name of ocean on the other side of Japan is already a latinisation of the word ‘peace’.
‘East Sea’ is even more culturally biased than ‘Sea of Japan’. It is obvious that for most Japanese, what we’re talking about here is not in the East.
So what about ‘Sea of Japan’? Well, as unpalatable as it my be to most Koreans, the only thing separating the East Sea from the Pacific is indeed the Japanese Archipelego. If Koreans have no problem with the bit of water that flows between Japan and Korea being called the Korea Straight, and I assume they don’t, then they really should accept geographical reality.
Apologies, I meant of course the ‘Korea Strait’ and was referring to its usage in English. I don’t care what the Koreas call either the strait or the sea in their own language, as per the comments above.
pawikirogi,
We would never throw your women out of bed for calling us cracker. Or kick them in the stomach to cause a miscarriage.
That’s because Koreans and their organizations such as VANK have sent lots of spam mail to foreign media(National Geographic, Graphic maps and Lycos etc)to change “Sea of Japan” into “East Sea”. Matt Rosenberg, a professional geographer at About.com revealed that he had been getting complaint letters from VANK about the map on his webpage for over a year.
http://geography.about.com/lib.....22402a.htm
I think they are like a spoiled child who sees themselves and their need as more important than anything else and bothers people until they get what they want. The rest of the world have no reason to be forced to change the Sea of Japan to the East Sea or the sea of Korea or whatever name the Koreans prefer.
Korea often insists that the name “Sea of Japan” is the legacy of Japanese imperialism of the 20th century. However, the insistence on this is a malignant propaganda to try to gain some sympathy vote. Sea of Japan was already established internationally in the 19th century before Japan opened the country to the world. Also they call East China Sea “South Sea”. However, they do not demand that other countries should use this name. What’s up with this double standard? I definitely think their activities like this changing the name of the sea of Japan are mainly based on an inferiority complex.
of course, this whole thread was yet another opportunity for the expat to slam the people he claims to love. one must wonder:
why any westerner would care about this issue?
and
why can’t koreans go after a name change if that is what they want? since it’s no big deal, i’m sure the japanese won’t mind. btw, can you tell me why it’s imperative to keep ’sea of japan’? nope, just looking for something to whine about.
the name will be changed. korea shares this body of water and the current name is an issue with them.
lastly, here is the only example i have of westerners being caught in the middle of the samurai and yangban:
remember how the koreans and japanese had to share the world cup? well, i read a few articles about why both countries were chosen to host the games.
you see, the non-korean/japanese judges were appalled the behavior of both sides. they were shocked at how one side badmouthed the other. that couldn’t believe the level of animosity. that’s why they made them share the games.
did you notice i said both sides? you think that people will see the japanese as more mature but what you miss is japan’s level of maturity is only SLIGHTLY higher than korea’s. you never get it, do you, expat?
‘your comment was racist.’
why was it racist? because i used the word ‘white’? you mean, you and your brothers can run around all day telling us what koreans do but ain’t nobody can talk about you? the other person in that conversation was white. she didn’t seem to think my comment was racist.
‘there ain’t much difference between four day old bread and five day old bread.’ sage pawi
Notice how nulji has managed to throw us off the trail by switching his flag to Saudi Arabia! Guess he’s slightly smarter than we thought.
Notice too how he loudly protests he’s an “American”, but when it suits him he starts referring to “Westerners” to give himself an out. He should ask, “Why would any American care about this issue?”, but he cleverly asks “Why would any Westerner care about this issue?” In other words, it’s natural for dual-loyalty kyopos to loudly advocate for the Korean position on any issue, but white people should shut up. More typical hypocrisy.
Anyhoo, Westerners (like the About.com guy) care because we care about truth and accuracy. We care because “The rest of the world have no reason to be forced to change the Sea of Japan to the East Sea or the sea of Korea or whatever name the Koreans prefer.”
And nulji, you genius, Koreans _want_ Westerners to care, which is why they conduct these e-mail campaigns targeted at Westerners. So, shut up.
Better yet, remember your comment that America should remain a Western country, recognize that you and your family are preventing that, and leave.
‘Notice how nulji has managed to throw us off the trail by switching his flag to Saudi Arabia! Guess he’s slightly smarter than we thought.’
well, the sad part to all of this is that becoming a member here almost requires you to hide yourself. if ain’t the marmot giving away information about you to those who have access but should’t, it’s the dogs of marmotville who’ll do just about anything to silence those whose criticism they cannot tolerate. these creeps are more totalitarian than they realize. just ask our #1 snoop, dda, who thought it was his right to publish private information about me. i thought it was interesting how the expat whined about the k posse going after a public gerry but said nothing about dda’s own little expose on a private netizen.
you may think that the fair minded don’t notice your hypocrisy, but they most certainly do.
btw, doggit, i am an american and they ain’t shit you can do about it.
‘Better yet, remember your comment that America should remain a Western country, recognize that you and your family are preventing that, and leave.’ dogbert
someguyinkorea, does that count as racist? perhaps you should change your name to ’somebigmouthinkorea’. wouldn’ that be better and more in line with your faux huffy puffy stance on racism?
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[...] Robert from the Marmots Hole has reported that President Roh offered to change the name of the Sea of Japan to the “Sea of Peace”. In a scoop, the Segye Ilbo is reporting that in his meeting with Japanese Prime Minister Abe Shinzo during the APEC summit in Hanoi on Nov. 18, President Roh Moo-hyun proposed that the East Sea (otherwise known as the Sea of Japan) be called instead the “Sea of Peace.” [...]