Money Today is reporting that a U.S. soldier is being charged after he paid an unexpected visit to an Itaewon police station to assault the police officers investigating some USFK buddies of his.
Or so he is accused.
According to prosecutors, 22-year-old Pvt. D. dropped in on the police station in Itaewon on Nov. 11 after hearing word that some of his friends has been arrested for assault. Not content to issue mere verbal protests, though, he reportedly ran riot in the station, beating a 42-year-old detective and another senior policeman about the face.
In addition to assault, Pvt. D is being charged with obstructing justice.
Prior to the incident, Pvt. D’s two friends—a 27-year-old Cpl. W and 22-year-old Pvt. C—were busted for allegedly assaulting a Korean bouncer at an Itaewon club when the bouncer in question attempted to break up a fight between the soldiers and some other foreigners. The bouncer was reportedly struck in the head with a beer bottle. The two soldiers, however, were not detained.
An official at the prosecutors office said the two had received the same judicial treatment as would a Korean. In something of a departure from most officials quoted on SOFA matters in the Korean press, the official noted that while some additional measures, such as having a USFK official in the courtroom, would be taken in accordance with the SOFA treaty, the soldiers would receive almost the exact same treatment as would a Korean charged with a similar offense.
UPDATE: From Mark in the comments:
What a crock. I was staff duty officer. This guy got beat down by the KNP’s for a good 3-5 minutes, Rodney King style. He ended up in the emergency room at 121 getting staples to stop the bleeding on his head.
I’d still like to know who initiated contact. If the GI started the police station brawl, I’d certainly hope the KNP would beat the shit out of him. The operative word here, however, is “if.”
73 Comments
The first thought in my head was “what an idiot” which was quickly followed by mini-scenes playing as flashbacks of the numerous times I’ve seen on Korean TV where they show surveillance film from police stations and those mini-police stations near entertainment centers (for Koreans) where drunks and friends of drunks (also drunk) will come and abuse the policemen on duty — often seemingly getting away with it if they do little more than push and pull and perhaps slap the officers on duty.
The most interesting one I saw was when a guy was with just one or two buddies, and took out a hatchet and waved it around then banged it on the doors and walls as the police beat feet out of the lobby then one came back much later and had to shoot the guy. This was back when the police first started carrying guns - so it was big news.
I wonder if the GI in question had been watching Korean TV and saw the fairly frequent (as I remember it) examples of such surviellance camera stuff (like Korea’s version of Cops - Most Outrageous Encounters) and thought he could do the same? Probably not……probably just a gigantic idiot…
What a crock. I was staff duty officer. This guy got beat down by the KNP’s for a good 3-5 minutes, Rodney King style. He ended up in the emergency room at 121 getting staples to stop the bleeding on his head.
OK, but the question still remains, who initiated the fight?
In the old days, Korean police were very much feared. They had the power. Now a days after they’ve been declawed and defanged in the movement to tear down the totalitarian apperatus, they’ve become neighborhood Barney Fife in uniform. To be fair to them though, if they make the wrong move (which would be lifting a finger to protect themselves), there’d be cries of human rights abuses from the media which could get them in deep trouble.
Marmot, the Soldier did.
OK, so the guy goes to the police station and starts an altercation with Cheol-su Law. The Money Today story might be a crock, but the soldier in question should count himself lucky he wasn’t sodomized with nightsticks.
Note to the Busan 9: This sort of thing is illegal too.
“the soldiers would receive almost the exact same treatment as would a Korean charged with a similar offense.”
Ah, they’ll cough up a small amount of money and be on their way?
I’m not saying that the guy wasn’t in the wrong, which he clearly was by trying to interfere with an arrest. I’m just saying that there was severe and excessive force involved due to the fact that he was an American.
I’ve seen drunk Koreans slap Korean police around and curse them out scot-free. It’s actually pretty funny seeing the Korean police turn from little beeatches when dealing with their own to instant defenders of the realm when dealing with foreigners.
Let’s look at the slow motion replay and see what happened.
As a foreigner I wouldn’t trust Korean police to act fairly under any circumstances where the matter is a dispute between foreigners and their own. Here’s a recent letter written protesting police action in regard to a guy who was beaten so severely by a mob of drunk koreans that he had a brain hemorage. (a long read - this happened about 3 months back in Gwangju, where anti-foreigner sentiment is pretty much par for course). The police report was a joke, so full of bullshit it made the foreigner community down here livid.
Open Letter to the editor:
In response to an article in the Kwangju Ilbo titled: “외국인 강사 5명•한국인 3명광주 도심서 패싸움” (5 FOREIGNERS AND 3 KOREANS HAD A FIGHT DOWNTOWN IN GWANGJU CITY)
In the early hours of the morning on the 10th of September an incident occurred in downtown Gwangju that resulted in a close friend of mine being hospitalized with severe head trauma. For the purposes of this letter, and to preserve his anonymity, I’ll call him “John”. The following is an account of what happened that night.
John, his girlfriend and several other friends had just left a bar and were walking along the street. John became involved in a quarrel with a Korean man. The reason for the quarrel is a matter of dispute (and is part of the subject of a police investigation). Because of his injury John cannot recall the events. However his companions say that John’s girlfriend was harassed by the Korean man, at which point John confronted him. An argument ensued but was defused by both Koreans and the foreigners. The Koreans state that the argument began because of aggressive eye contact.
The foreigners then moved on, but the Korean group followed them. At another location the Korean group confronted the foreigners, who were attempting to leave the street by way of an elevator. A fight then broke out, involving four of the male foreigners and a much larger number of Koreans. At some point John was separated from his companions and beaten by at least two Koreans, although the number may have been as high as five: this is another point of dispute. What is not disputed is that John was felled to the ground and then repeatedly kicked in the head. It is believed that those who kicked him in the head were bystanders, not involved in the original dispute. (this is a claim made by the Koreans involved in the fighting). John was so badly injured that he suffered a brain hemorrhage. Another foreigner received eleven stitches in his mouth.
It was a week before the foreigners were taken to the police station for an interview, and at the time of writing, two weeks after the event, only two of the foreigners had been asked to make statements. Despite this lack of information from the foreigners, only two days after the incident this article appeared in the Gwangju Ilbo (translated):
5 FOREIGNERS AND 3 KOREANS HAD A FIGHT
DOWNTOWN IN GWANGJU CITY
One Canadian got badly injured (in serious condition)
A big brawl between foreign teachers and Koreans caused one of the foreigners to get badly injured at 4:30am on Sep 10th. The argument between the foreign teacher ‘H’ (26) and 3 Koreans in their twenties developed into a fist-fight. It is said the fight began because of their ‘eye-contact’ problem*. Foreign teachers (who joined later) also attacked two innocent Korean bystanders, including Kim (25). The Canadian teacher ‘H’ suffered a brain hemorrhage. Fortunately, H was taken to ‘Chonnam Dehakyo Byungwon’ (Chonnam University Hospital), and is taken good care of. He will be ok. Police are investigating the case based on the witnesses’ statements, because the Koreans ran away.
* ‘eye-contact’: Korean people usually start a fight especially when they feel or notice stared at by someone else. (Footnote in the actual article)
[ 외국인 강사 5명•한국인 3명광주 도심서 패싸움
외국인 강사들과 한국인들이 광주시내 한복판에서 집단으로 싸움을 벌여, 캐나다
출신 강사 1명이 중상을 입었다.
10일 새벽 4시50분께 광주시 동구 광산동 구(舊) 시청 4거리에서 광주 모
영어학원 강사 H(26•캐나다 인)씨 등 외국인 5명이 20대 초•중반으로 보이는
한국인 3명과 시비를 벌이다, 서로 주먹을 휘둘렀다.
이들은 술에 취한 상태에서 눈이 마주쳤다는 이유로 싸움을 벌인 것으로
알려졌다.
외국인 강사들은 싸움을 말리던 행인 김모(25)씨 등 2명에게도 폭력을
휘둘렀으며, 이 과정에서 H씨가 머리를 다쳐 뇌출혈을 일으켰다.
H씨는 신고를 받고 출동한 119구급대에 의해 전남대병원 응급실로 옮겨져 치료를
받고 있으나, 생명에는 지장이 없는 것으로 전해졌다.
경찰은 한국인 가해자들이 달아남에따라, 목격자들의 진술을 바탕으로 정확한
사건 경위를 조사 중이다. ]
Undoubtedly both parties share at least some part of the blame for the escalation of events (though exactly how much is open to debate), and certainly the events outlined above are not indicative of wider foreigner-Korean relations. Such ugly events occur in all major cities. What is disappointing is the manner in which (to date) the authorities and local media have dealt with the matter. The above report is a distortion: it presents as fact only the Korean version of events.
The media shapes opinion. Such reports inflame prejudices and affect the lives of many people in adverse ways. A few days after the report was published my girlfriend ran the topic of drugs and alcohol in her free-talking English class. One of her students used the recent example of “violent foreign teachers” to decry the abuse of alcohol in modern society. It seems the false report has already made its way into the collective consciousness of at least some Gwangju residents. Perhaps this will contribute to further instances of violence in the future.
John was recently discharged from hospital, but is far from recovered. He and his girlfriend, who are both still suffering from the ordeal, have now been dealt the double-blow of blame. How must they feel, while they wait patiently for someone to ask and report on their version of events?
I wrote to the Gwangju Ilbo about the article, and to their credit they answered me quickly, were polite and helpful. According to them they did not research the article themselves, but relied on a police report, which they then sent me. They also told me that they would write another article as soon as the latest police report is issued (if in fact an updated version is made available). Fair enough. To the police, then, I pose this question: how can you justify releasing such a lopsided report to the media without asking a single foreigner their version of events?
The police investigation is still underway, but it is already two weeks after the events described above and there has been little headway made. It is unlikely anyone will be held to account. But perhaps the police will at least release a balanced report, taking into account the foreigner’s version of events and the view of at least one other Korean independent witness who saw the incident (a taxi driver was found who saw the assault and agreed with the foreigners). Perhaps this report will find its way to a local news source. The foreign community is waiting and watching.
I know a Korean guy who beat up a Korean cop. He got 30 days in jail and had to pay the hospital bills.
If this sort of thing persists or becomes more common — including the sort of foreigner-hate reported by several Swiss citizens during a large anti-FTA protest in downtown Seoul — it would become the cherry on top of the economic downturn that is just now creeping up on Korea. Such actions on the part of a thugish minority and the poor police efforts in protecting foreigners would not encourage tourism and that is unfair to the larger part of decent people who live.
I hope the incoming ruling party addresses the professionalism of the police and how law is enforced better than the last two administrations that have clearly been derelict in their responsibilities.
Well, let’s remember that this particular waygook was asking for it. Everywhere in the world, police are going to be extra-infuriated when a foreigner walks in and starts punching.
Herod is on to something here. It is never wise to brace a dog (or multiples thereof) in his own yard. If the same thing had happened in just about any big city US police station the tazers and batons would have come out pronto. I’m not saying that the cops were right, but calling them out in their own house was not all that smart.
If this happened to a Korean back home (US,Canada etc…) it would be called racism. A bunch of white people (or whatever ethnic group) beat up on the innocent, peace loving Korean dude and made his brain bleed and blah, blah, blah. In Korea, simply stating that they were invaded so many times and have always been victims is enough to suffice. Remeber, it’s always the foreigners fault because Koreans are kind, peace loving people and would never do such things. I doubt the international press will pick up on this, but it would be nice. Korea: White man’s heaven…remember?!
kunsanpcv,
it’s funny that you should mention dogs, because police dogs are trained to hold people, not bite the crap out of them.
there is a point to this. cops are supposed to use enough force to control the situation and stop someone from hurting them, not teach people lessons about turf. they are trained to use holds and blocks, not punches.
the fact that this soldier went into a police station and ended up in the hospital does not shine a happy light on the cops involved. there should have been enough of them to overpower him without causing much damage. i could see one lone cop in a fight having to really lay into someone to protect himself, (sharp, blinding pain would give him the time he needed to get the handcuffs on) but the more cops there are, the less damage they should have to do.
one guy to sit on him, one (or two) to hold his legs, one to put his knee on the back of the guy’s head, and one to see how far backwards the arms will twist. the end result should not be a trip to the hospital.
My previous post is in regard to post #11 btw.
I still say he deserved it. Imagine some foreigner - not to be Islamophobic, but let’s call him Ali - charging into an American police station, swinging at the cops. Would we be outraged that he needed a lot of stitches afterward? I know I wouldn’t be.
i would be.
basically, it’s not a good idea for cops to be able to beat people beyond what is needed to control the situation and maintain community safety. why? once there is even one group of people on their “safe to beat” list, the list will just get longer and longer.
also, i would really wonder about the level of training for a group of police officers, a full station’s worth, that could not handle one dude without seriously hurting him. i would be outraged about where my tax dollars were going.
The slippery slope argument, eh. I say there’s nothing wrong having a “safe to beat” list consisting of “people who think cops are safe to beat”.
There are all kinds of actions that we have the right to undertake and that we should be able to do without fear of getting pounded on for it. My point is that even when you have the right, it may not be very smart in certain contexts to exercise that right. How people should behave in any given situation and how they actually behave is often quite different, no revelation there. I can’t think of a single country in the world where a foreigner storming into a cop shop to berate and confront the staff is a good idea. The cops may have had no right to beat on this guy and may also have acted unprofessionally, but those are the risks you take when you push the wrong buttons on the wrong folks on their own turf.
In defense of the Itaewon Police. I’ve seen a few incidents myself where I’d like to have taken a nightstick to some beligerantly drunk GIs, but the Itaewon police merely pointed them towards the base. Maybe these just got their buttons pushed too far.
if this would have happened in the us, the suspect would have been shot dead, and that’s specially true if the suspect were a minority. the guy’s lucky he got away with his life. he got what was coming.
btw, if a korean did this here, i’d side with the police since you don’t ever mess with police here; that can get you killed.
one last thing, in the states, simply touching an officer can get you arrested for assault.
True, Pawikirogi. And I never thought I’d say those words.
“I’d still like to know who initiated contact. If the GI started the police station brawl”
I have no doubt this guy was swearing, shouting, waving his finger in cops’ faces and generally trying to intimidate and physically cow the cops. It’s not like a 90 year old man was doing this - in this case, I’d say the police would have the right to grab and restrain him, and I’d guess things would have gone downhill from there.
Back home comparison again: how long would you be allowed to barge into a cop shop, scream profanity and threaten to kick asses without a police response? I’m guessing about 10 seconds where I grew up…
In response to #8:
“Ah, they’ll cough up a small amount of money and be on their way?”
That is probably what will happen to the two that got into it with the bouncer. 45 45 is a safe bet. 45 days extra duty and 45 days of restriction along with reduction of rank. The PVT that started fighting in the cop shop will probably get kicked out of the military, especially if he was drunk. And if he doesn’t, he should be. I have seen instances where a soldier gets jumped by no fault of his own, and gets in trouble with the Army. When alcohol is involved, that makes it much worse. Depending on the command climate at Yongsan or wherever they came from (My bet is TDC/Camp Casey area, but I could be wrong)you may see some heavier restrictions come down on the military.
Things like this are very unfortunate and only gives the
anti-U.S.anti-forigner types more ammo for their cause.wait a second….some guy went into a police station and assaulted the cops. He’s wrong. He got a beaten. What’s the issue?
I really am struck by some of the comments. Especially Marmot’s. Do you really mean it when you say “should count himself lucky he wasn’t sodomized with nightsticks”?
I guess I should start by asking people what they think of the Rodney King beat down in LA some years ago? Excused act by the LA PD based on King’s actions - or - a crime committed by cops?
I say, and I believe most Americans would say, it was a crime. The police do not have a license to beat the hell out of someone for as long as they have the energy to swing the sticks because he fled and then became abusive.
I am no left-wing friend of the ACLU. Someone attacking the police should expect to get beaten, but there is no way in the the US in this day and age the police would be given a green light to beat the person relentlessly.
The guy would have been shot in the US? Bullshit…
Once a person’s ability to threaten the police is removed — once he is beaten down to the point the police can handle him, the beating stops. Once you get to the point that you can handcuff the suspect, it stops. Any policemen in the US going beyond that would know — their chances of being prosecuted jumps fairly high - their chances of being sued become a pretty good bet, and if the unarmed asshole who started the fight ends up getting beat up by a group of cops to the point he has major head injuries, the chances the city will lose the law suit is high. That is the reality in the US today.
I don’t care if your name is Ali or Muhammed or Jones. The days where a group of police in the US could beat down on someone and put them in the hospital for throwing a punch at them is gone.
But we are talking about Korea here.
And if you look at the reality in Korea — some of the comments above are even more full of crap…
As I and some others mentioned above, who could live in Korea for years and not know that drunk Koreans accost - including laying hands on - Korean policemen ALL THE bleeping TIME and often do not even get ARRESTED much less beaten down!
But because he is a foriegner — it’s OK?
Some of you are actually saying that and mean it? Incredible…
Because the guy is a foreigner, not only is it “a given” the police would beat the hell out of him, the fact we should so obviously expect the police would beat the hell out of him makes the actual beating a non-issue…….it becomes “he got what he deserves”?
I wonder if some of the comments would have been differently if the guy was a 3-D worker from Indonesia or Pakistan? With some, maybe — with others, maybe not, but it is all still BS.
Again, I am not left-winger running around screaming about civil rights. For example, the two guys in the US in LA who had that massive shootout like in the movie Heat —- the police let the one guy bleed to death in the street when they could have gotten an ambulance in there much sooner — and I say, “Good.” I have no problem whatsoever with how the police handled that after some guy shoots several cops and sprays probably over a thousand bullets in a public area.
But in the Rodney King situation — and that black guy who got a police baton up the rectum in NY — the police got what they deserved. Actually, the LA police should have been convicted in the criminal trial.
But again —- we are talking about KOREA!!!
A place where different TV shows FREQUENTLY show examples of drunk Korean men in often fairly sizable groups — push and shove and YES in FACT slap and punch cops —– and not only do NOT get beaten down - don’t even get arrested!!
And some of you are saying, it seems, that the fact the guy in this case is a foreigner makes the difference……..Incredible………that the guy should have known he’d get beaten down so badly because he is a foreigner actually excuses the police. They only did what was expected of them?……
Next, on the other case down in Gwangju, it reminds me of the Irish brawl a few Chusoks ago. http://www.usinkorea.org/issues/sungod/index2.htm
“He got a beaten. What’s the issue?”
I think the issue is how far the beating went.
To me, we don’t know enough right now. I don’t have a clear enough idea of what 121 staples (stitches??) means.
But, the idea that an individual physically assaulting a group of cops could/should be beaten to whatever extent the police felt like inflicting is wrong. It isn’t the reality in the US today, and it sure as hell isn’t the reality in Korea today either.
If Koreans if Koreans beat foreigners in Korea, it’s ok. However, if it happens to a Korean abroad, it’s racism and there is nothing else you can call it.
oh, they call it racism here, too, but i defy you to find a someone who gives a crap. thumping on waygooks is practically a sport these days. every Korean gets lots of warnings about it before heading to the klink, too.
then there’s the guy who should be up for a Darwin Award cause he went into a police station and started stuff with the cops. in any country where you are the minority, that’s just dumber than the dumbest.
of course the cops went too far, but that’s what always happens.
hardandtiny is right, there’s no issue here.
the one and only situation in which a guy going into a police station and pissing off the cops inside and not getting the crap totally beaten out of him is one where everybody is the same race. hence, wasted Koreans slapping the local cops around and nothing much happens to them. i would suggest the same result in the States, if a privileged white guy walked into a station and tried something, he’d be escorted out with a ‘no hard feelings’ and maybe a little bump on the head.
i would also say that both race and class factor in heavily in how the police anywhere deal with anybody.
as for who deserves (deserved) what … without being in a position of authority, you have no rights to decide things for yourself when you act stupidly in the face of authority figures.
i should say not that you have no rights, but you give up your rights to decide things for yourself
I’m not so much disappointed with what happened to the guy as I am the BS in this thread.
A white guy going into a police station in the US can start a fight and the white-man-world’s cops would just pat him on the back and send him on his way? Horseshit.
He would be beaten to whatever extent the group of cops felt like doing in the US with no problem? Also horseshit.
Cops in the US would just shoot an unarmed and outnumbered guy who got physical? Horseshit.
It’s only natural a Korean - really from what you see on the TV from the surveillance cameras - groups of drunk Koreans - can slap around cops and nothing is done — but it is also just natural and hunkeydorey that a lone foreigner doing the same thing should be beaten to any extent the native police feel like? Horseshit…
I see there’s still a lot of confusion in this thread, so I’ll offer a few tidbits of extra information to clear some of the fog of war….
First of all, about 80% of the clientele of UN Club are up to no good, be they barracks hoes (if you’ve ever been enlisted in the US Army, you know exactly what I’m talking about), gang bangers (no, not the sexual type…gang-related affiliations is what I mean), or K-Lo’s (Korean chicks who dress with lots of bling-bling, have cornrow hairstyles, big booty, and won’t give you the time of day unless you’re African-American or Nigerian). A culture of violence and disrespect towards authority reeks from the bowels of this place. Not exactly the types of USFK members who volunteer at orphanages and take cultural trips to Korean folk villages.
Second, the guy was somewhat calmly trying to interfere with the arrest, because there’s this “battle-buddy” thing that’s a really big deal, especially if you’re wearing an Indianhead patch. Loyalty to one’s buddies sometimes trumps common sense, especially when there’s a little alcohol involved. All I know from the CP (courtesy patrol) verbal report was that the guy was trying to intervene, the Korean police attempted to keep him from intervening, and so violence ensued as a function of alcohol and culture. It took several Koreans to subdue him, and once he was held down, other Korean police saw the opportunity to beat an American and joined in.
Third, to support what Lirelou said, the Korean police are usually pretty cooperative. I’ve been hemmed-up a couple of times, and as long as you keep your cool and speak some rudimentary Korean, they might even hail a cab for you and make sure you get to where you’re supposed to be. If you cause static, just as with any other police in any other country, you’re going to pay for it.
Finally, the only aspect of this entire situation which irritates me is the Korean media portrayal of the police as the victims and the ugly GI as the culprit. That is the difference with the US media…chances are the PVT would have still gotten a beating, but the US press would have sided with him and pushed the issue of police brutality. Here in never-neverland, however, the ugly American is the perpetrator and takes a beating not only from 5-8 police (ain’t it fun to beat an American while he’s down?), but also the Naver vigilante press.
By the way, USinKorea, 121st General Hospital is the hospital on Yongsan, not the number of staples he received (LOL). I did hear him screaming in pain in the background when I spoke to the nurse over the phone, though. I cringed when they said that the US MP’s would turn him back over to the Korean police after they patched him up.
Besottedtom, they weren’t from Dongducheon or Uijeongbu. I’m probably in hot water for saying as much as I have, so I’m not going to tell their exact unit/duty location.
As Chris Rock would say, the moral of this entire story is:
1. Obey the law, because it only applies to foreigners.
2. Use common sense, even if you’re drunk.
3. Stop immediately, even if you’re bigger than all of them.
4. Turn that rap music shit off.
5. Be polite and shut the fcuk up.
6. Get a white friend because Koreans treat them a little bit better.
7. Don’t fight over a mad woman.
You forgot #8:
Pull US ground forces out of ROK. The ROK’s can be plenty tough when they decide they want to be, so there’s no more need for US ground combat forces.
I like #4 the best. That rap crap gets on my nerves.
“By the way, USinKorea, 121st General Hospital is the hospital on Yongsan, not the number of staples he received (LOL).”
Well, that adds an important piece of info for me. But, by “staples” do you mean “stitches” or the staples? There is a big difference in the type of head injury involved.
And that, with this actual case, is one of the keys to me - because in my opinion, their is a limit to how much the police (wherever) can beat on even a jackass. If I read somewhere how he had broken one cops jaw and then got his head cracked open, I might think one way. Hearing he was an ass that got physical and then had his head cracked open by a group of cops, I might think a different way. But there is also a difference, to me, between having a head cracked open (literally) and having a cut on your head.
But another key, for me, is still how people keep saying, “You get physical with the police, what do you expect? You’re going to get the crap kicked out of you.”
Not in Korea.
Anyone who has watched any Korean TV would know that. You can’t be honest and say that anyone getting physical with the police “anywhere in the world” would know to expect to get beat down if you have lived in Korea for a couple of years.
It also isn’t honest to say that anybody getting physical with cops in the US would “naturally” get beaten down or even shot (and it would be accepted). I can picture that still happening in some places in this big country, but for the majority of places, that simply is not the case any more. Like Mark said, the media would love to champion a victim of police brutality. Lawyers make a living off such cases. And city bean counters are terrified of multi-million dollar law suits. A cop in the US who relentlessly beats a suspect because they got physical might get cooperation from fellow officers, but he would also get an internal affairs investigation by other fellow officers, and the city (or county) would cut him loose in a heart beat and say he broke the rules of how they trained him to avoid being included in a law suit.
So, you have to go with the idea that the beating is OK because he was a foreigner and should have known a foreigner would get beat down (even though Koreans would not).
That’s offensive.
This thread has probably been beaten (no pun intended) into the ground, but I would like to say that I think USAINKOREA is misconstruing some posted comments as the GI ’should” have been thumped instead of the sentiment that he ’should have expected’ to get thumped for getting in the cops’ faces. You don’t have to live in Korea very long to find out that rules differ for foreigners and locals, sometimes that works in your favor and sometimes that works against you. That inequality may not be right and it may not be fair, but that’s just the way it is. As the comedian Ron White would say, “That’s a right handy piece of information right there.”
In the case of my comment, however, usainkorea didn’t misconstrue—I’m sorry, but if you go into a police station and physically challenge the cops—in their own house, for Christ’s sake—then you deserve to have your ass kicked. Heck, you probably need a good ass-kicking to straighten your head out. If a beligerent Korean upset that some of his traveling buddies got arrested for banging massage-parlor hos in Flushing went into a NYPD station and started getting physical with the officers, would any of us feel bad for him if he got a can of woop-ass opened upon him as a result? I wouldn’t.
Robert, do you think you would get that same ass-whupping by the NYPD in a similar situation?
Robert, I grew up in Chicago in the 1960s and 70s and remember getting good laughs out of tv cop shows at the time (Dragnet, Adam 12, etc) which focused on ‘new’ policing techniques, Miranda rights, and solid ‘professionalism’ in Southern California police forces. In those days in Chicago if you were a smart ass who demanded your rights from a Chicago cop you’d get ‘em all right - and more than a few lefts thrown in for good measure. If ANYONE went into a Chicago police station and got in the cops’ faces they’ed have gotten a quick trip to the back of the station and a meeting with ‘the wrecking crew” before getting tossed in the drunk tank.
Back in the days of the military dictatorship in Korea I was in two pretty spectacular bar brawls. In both cases the KNP let me skip because a) I was respectful to THEM and b) I was with Korean friends who vouched for me. Had I gotten in their faces, I’m sure the outcomes would have been much different. In those days the KNP was a more fearsome bunch than they seem now, so if they had wanted to kick my butt they could have with no comeback. Most cops, even the best of them, have a red-line and you cross it at your peril.
You mean how like the NYPD beat Anthony Carty in 2002? Or in the case of 16 year old Donovan Jackson’s beating by LAPD? These two didn’t even do anything wrong other then be born a wrong color and having the nerve of getting stopped by the white cops.
Not to mention the case of lewdist/drug user Donald Reed Pete who was beaten by Oklahoma police for *not* resisting arrest. He’s another perfect example of a blackie named Rodney King. Somebody complained that the Korean police are experts at attacking innocent lone Americans when he’s down. Hell, maybe they learned this skill from the American coppers. Because no one is as good as the pack of American coppers beating down a lone black man.
That soldier who went into the Korean police station, was he black?
If he is black and he went into a police station in the US and tried to beat up the policemen, he’d probably be dead by now - and not just escape with a little scratch on his head.
cm—I think that was Dogbertt’s point.
La plus que ca change, la plus qu’il reste la meme, eh?
I’ve been here a couple of years, and even in that short time I’ve seen Korea change pretty drastically. Any foreigner whose been here 6 months has heard these stories (and the attendant rumours). I’ve even had some first hand experience with the gormless Korean police force and, I can assure you, the rumours of corruption and apathy don’t even come close to doing these guys justice.
But, I’m digressing… What I’d like to know is, do these stories about beatings and violent anti-foreigner sentiment make any difference? I mean, we know them, and maybe we tell our friends back home, maybe we don’t, and they’re appalled, but, so what? I don’t see these stories permeating the international consciousness. I don’t get people I meet asking, “So, is it true that Koreans hate foreigners?” (occasionally they ask me what it’s like to live in Pyeongyang, but that’s another story altogether.)
I guess what I want to know is what you guys think about the impact these attacks have. Is there any, other than to the injured parties?
The part of me that sees this country developing and enjoys the “cultural” experience hopes that this isn’t the way that Korea comes to be perceived. There are so many individual Koreans who are outgoing and want to be part of the international community, it would be a shame to see their goodwill subverted by the xenophobic will of the collective.
On the other hand, when I get pushed in the metro one too many times, or get tired of being hated on by the media, the nasty part of me hopes that this blows up in Korea’s face. I long to see them exposed on the international stage as the snivelling whiners, small-minded nationalists, and backwards robots they are. (That’s on the really bad days).
I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels this way. Do you think that these anti-foreigner incidents are just small tremors as the tectonics of the Korean people shift towards becoming part of the international community. Or do you think this is really what they’re all about, a tragic flaw that’ll eventually comeback to bite them in the ass?
cm, the thing is that a white guy does not get a pass from white cops either. It’s just if Robert got beat up by white cops, that is not news, whereas white cops beating up a black guy (or Korean guy for that matter) is. Also, I believe major metropolitan police forces in the U.S. are probably more integrated than you may think.
I do note your earlier point and I have often wondered how your average Joe Kim so quickly adapted to going from fearing the Korean police to having very little respect for them.
Maugrim—thanks for your comment, but I don’t think the “Minjung-ui Jipangi” beating down a guy after he barges into a cop shop and physically interferes with the investigation of his battle buddies constitutes an “anti-foreign incident.” Stupid foreigner trick, yes.
Oh no, obviously not. But throughout this discussion thread there are people construing it as part of a larger movement (hence the whole, this-would-interpreted/treated-differently-in-
the-States,discussion). You go mouth-off to some cops, you get your ass handed to you, that’s a no-brainer.
Whether or not this guy deserved the beating (or the quality of beating) he got is moot. It’s a discussion that has no end. I’m more interested in the larger context in which this beating is interpreted by foreigners at large.
There are obviously people arguing that this is just one more incident of anti-foreignerism, so there are obviously people who interpret it as an anti-foreigner incident, making my question salient (to my mind anyway).
I was hoping I could get some opinions on a related meta-topic (whether incidents such as this affect the international community’s opinion of Korea) rather than more of the - He deserved it, no he didn’t, this would never happen back home, yes it would - ouroboros that the discussion has become.
Man I love our Canuck commentators. This guy is from the States and let me tell you that everyboy good old boy knows that if a Korean guy went into a small town police station in West Virgina and acted up there would definitely been an accident. But then again we are dealing with Korean cops who I know first hand are plain ass dumb, but the Itaewon cops are very laid back when dealing with Americans, in fact, unless times have changed, they tolerate acts no cop in America would. However, we don’t know the situation and certainly not the report or the media. An example was the report of the Korean American who reportedly stabbed a Korean guy at a KFC years back. What the media failed to mention was that it was the Korean guy who pulled out the knife and the Korean American guy reacted like any American dude would by getting serious. I personally think the beef was about fairness. It is not the crime in itself but the day to day changes in enforcement. It makes one angry to be charged with a crime when the guy two feet away is doing the same dumb ass thing and gets away with it.
Excellent point, Sumo. Virtually every expat who’s lived in Korea awhile can cite at least one example of the media leaving out information that would mitigate or exculpate a foreigner or including incriminating details of questionable authenticity. Hoju Saram provides an outrageous example in comment #11.
However, Mark acknowledged in comment #5 that the soldier started the fight.
Several years ago, I participated in a panel discussion that included representatives from both English dailies. An editor from KH expressed surprise that foreign respondents in a survey done by a PhD student ranked the papers low on trustworthiness.
I’ll assume the Itaewon cop shop doesn’t have CCTV like the others that appear on the news for had it we would have certainly seen the when-the-foreigner-attacks footage tonight.
But if it does…I guess we foreigners were given a pass.
If there is a “meta-issue” here for Maugrim, I’d say it’s the Korean media angle. Far more sympathetic people than our Darwin Award aspirant GI here have gotten tried and convicted by one-sided coverage in the Korean media, be it trade disputes, foreign policy differences, the self-proclaimed comedians of Pusan…
Same “meta-issue” (it’s like a regular issue, but with super powers).
We feel the Korean media continually misrepresent the foreign community in their reports, through apathy, malicious intent, or simply as a result of a language/cultural barrier.
But, who cares? Does anybody save an expat in Korea know?
My original comment was a bit of a hijack, I’ll admit. But, debating the merits of an ass kicking in a cop shop, the likelihood thereof, and it’s particular quality, whether it be here or somewhere in the great white hegemon, when only one person was there to actually experience the incident, is the height of discussion thread masturbation.
So there.
I’m sure any individual, corporation or country that has been burned (i.e. been covered) by the Korean media care. In a world of nearly 6 billion people, that still might be a small count, I concede.
The Marmot’s is like the neighborhood watering hole. It’s a great place to verbally masterbate about things Korean.
I have to agree with Maugrim. Alot of the time I want to see this whole thing implode. I think that is the only thing that gets Koreans attention.
What happened in Itaewon was predictable. There is probably alot of pent-up emotion in police stations these days, what with their jobs being reduced to a simple role of placating the public. Just look at their symbol. A caraciture of a child in uniform driving a tonka police car packing a squirt gun. If you go in there and push the wrong buttons the tide of frustration might wind-up in your lap.
All issues seem to be extremely emotional here. Whether it is fan death or the FTA, you can’t talk to people logically. They don’t respond, they react. What is intriguing to me is how they go about rationalizing it.
I keep hearing about “eye contact”. Yes, if a Korean stares at me for ten minutes as if I were a zoo exhibit or a specimen on a slide he’s likely to get some eye contact. And why is it they seem to enjoy piling-on so much? I hear so many times that a man is down when the stomping really begins. I’ve seen accidents where a pedestrian or a scooter-pilot gets hit by a car and is writhing in agony and always on the sidelines I see teenage boys laughing gleefully. Always.
Please, can there ever be a one-on-one fight? Where is their pride? That was very macho of the ten Korean men who were able to break the jaw of one Wae-Gook who was already on the ground. Impressive!
Now, if I’ve gotten off topic here I feel horrible. The core of the thread is simple and boring. It happens. How bout we talk about things that are interesting even if the news isn’t. I know, it would be so chaotic it would become uninteresting again. Sorry, I’m personifying Sonagi’s previous statement.
Re Maugrim’s question in #53:
"We feel the Korean media continually misrepresent the foreign community in their reports, through apathy, malicious intent, or simply as a result of a language/cultural barrier.
But, who cares? Does anybody save an expat in Korea know?"
From Rio Linda, California, I can confidently report that no one here knows or cares what the Korean media does. More ominously, most people here don’t care what the U.S. media does either.
“I know a Korean guy who beat up a Korean cop. He got 30 days in jail and had to pay the hospital bills.”
I was under the impression that in Korea there were two types of crimes, one civil where they label the incident an “accident” and get the insurance company to pay, and the other a criminal act where the individual(s) pay the victim(s) directly.
If you injure someone, you have to pay JUST their medical bills? No other compensation (punitive [US]/exemplary [UK] damages) has to be paid to the victim in Korea?? *BOGGLE*
–Remort
I too, would like to comment about the police in Korea, Japan, and China. They go way out of their way ordinarily to be helpful and nice, while getting paid a shitty, little salary. Stop and talk to one, they know where all the “action” is taking place at most likely, and probably willing to tell you about it in some detail.
If you were a Korean cop, or even a Japanese cop, would you want to have to deal with all the paper work and political turmoil of fucking with a foreigner? Come on people.
It doesn’t matter really what country you’re in, if you get in their face and become even slightly aggressive, you are going to get a solid ass-beating from them, and deservingly so. Try fucking with a Chinese cop, a truck-full of them will be there shortly with submachine guns to back their buddy up in a heartbeat, I can assure you. You had damn well better have some Chinese linguistic skills, or a Chinese buddy that can vouch for your “barbarian” behavior.
–Remort
“Would we be outraged that he needed a lot of stitches afterward?”
I would. In any case, how the the American soldier get his skull split? Was he it over the head by the cops? Or did he just trip over his feet and plung head first into to cement wall?
I can’t believe this post broke 50 comments.
comment 39
Yes, and with the internet rather than face to face, it is harder to read the difference, and I did take it to mean “should have” or that “it is ok” — kind of like when sometimes here and elsewhere ESL instructors who get screwed are kicked while they are down because they got what they asked for.
comment 40
There is a difference between woopass and a billyclub up the bum.
Especially since the nightstick up the rear did happen in NY and was big news. And that is why this discussion isn’t simply pointless. We know in American society, things like Rodney King have happened, and I’ve heard a few people say that was a perfectly acceptable response and action by the LAPD.
I disagree wholeheartedly.
For me, it depends on the extent of whoopass used.
And also my 2nd point in the whole thing — In NY, or Atlanta, if you get physical with the police, you can expect to get a certain amount of your ass kicked, but in Korea, what happens?
I don’t remember seeing any whoopass moments in those frequent police video camera clips Korean TV would show where drunk Koreans got physical with Korean cops.
So, for me, in this thread, saying the police anywhere would have a greenlight to bust somebody’s head open (literally) (even when the ability to put the police in danger has passed) - or - that it is fine that Korean police beat on a foreigner when they would not beat on a Korean, because the foreigner should have known that was what would happen —– isn’t good.
comment 48
Well, no. That is not how it works in the US today. It might have been that way 20 years ago or before Rodney King, but it is not that way today. We are using language too loosely here - like billyclub up the rear and now just “mouthing off” gets your head kicked in. That isn’t the reality.
And comments like that are such BS, it probably says more about the person making them than the reality of policing in the US today.
In a nation the size of the US, you are going to have cops who commit crimes including assault, but each of the cases cm mentioned were huge news — because the society was against such actions, and the police paid for it. They are examples not so much as to what the police can do with impunity as to what they can’t get away with. I know it wasn’t always this way. It is actually rather a new phenomenon, but it has set in across the land.
It is, but it isn’t something “the international community” is going to pay attention to. You see here in this thread the voice of a good number of expats closely related to Korea - who have lived in Korea for a number of years, and I would tentively conclude the majority of them think the beating was just fine. (and since we don’t know the extent of the injuries to the GI - I have no firm conclusion whatsoever about the event itself)…
It does bring in the anti-foreigner angle — because those of us who have lived in Korea for a few years have seen plenty of examples on TV where drunk Koreans in packs or alone lay hands on the police - pushing, pulling, slapping, and so on — and the police do nothing. Coming from the US, it was one of the more alien things about Korean society I came across.
How many people here were saying this incident was just one example of a common trend of Korean police looking to beat up on foreigners? I can think of only one part of one comment that suggested that.
This is an isolated incident.
Good grief…..
Focusing attention on this one case is ridiculous. Focusing attention on the sorry state of the Korean press is ridiculous because nobody except expats in Korea care about it. But focusing attention on the attention focused on Korea is some speical “meta-issue”?
That’s almost a laugher…
My summation:
1. Police anywhere do not have the right to go hog-wild in beating on even assholes who punched them first. Here, the level of beat down is key and can only be judged on a case-by-case basis.
2. Police in the US, these days, do NOT have a greenlight to beat down on even assholes as more than one person here has been saying. That was the reality some time ago - but it isn’t that way today.
3. Korean police DO NOT go hog-wild against Koreans who accost them. In fact, the opposite is so true, it is remarkable. Drunk Koreans can get away with AN AMAZING AMOUNT of abuse thrown at Korean cops with the cops doing virtually NOTHING!
That is what is bothering me more than this case with this particular GI. It is suprising to me to see what people who know better are saying.
Usinkorea,
Did you view the complete Rodney King video? Rodney was shot quite a few times with tasers to no avail before he was treated like a king. I was not in the cop shop or dong parri jib, but I think the solder was in the wrong from the get go. If this guy was selling beer and disparaging the culture, he could have been killed (Note to Busan 9).
You go out boozing and cruising, you can expect a certain risk especially if you are acting out with the stink eye!
So the bottom line is…
The dude wasn’t in the US he was in Korea.
He was drinking and looking for trouble.
He went to the police station to show them what a bad dude he was and they kicked his ass.
Seems to me he got what he was asking for.
I sure hope they were able to beat some sense into him. He needs it.
*mental note* While in Korea do not start, err, continue a fight in a police station.
* Any word on the ethnicity of the U.S. military involved?
* So who has authority in this matter, the ROK police or the US MP?
–Remort
railwaycharm,
I saw different versions of the video, and it doesn’t matter if the tasers were ineffectual or not. One the beating reached the point King could not offer any threat, it should have stopped. One he was under control enough to handcuff, he should have been.
Why the cops in that case got off on the criminal charges is instructive in this thread’s discussion, because it was the King case that put the wheels in motion to change the policing culture in the US.
The cops got off, because they could show they did what their training told them to do — which was continue the use of force until the suspect no longer offers resistance. So, the cops said, they kept beating King each time he tried to get up and basically moved a muscle.
It was bullshit then, and the nation realized it, and it led to the change in how cops are trained and how police abuse is handled.
Another example — in the 2000s - there was a police car video of two cops wailing away on this black guy who eventually died of heart failure, but there was virtually no up roar.
The reason: the guy was well over 350 pound, on PCP, and the video showed him giving the cops a damn good run for their money. In other words, the viewing audience saw what threat level the man offered and accepted the amount of force the police used to subdue him and the beating stopped once he was manageable.
In King’s case, the viewing public understood something quite different had happened.
Next,
“So who has authority in this matter, the ROK police or the US MP?”
The Korean police if the Korean prosecutor asks for it - which it will.
Korean courts have been handling certain crimes committed by GIs since 1967. And since the last SOFA revision, the Koreans can now gain custody of the suspect before trail.
I am really surprised that the video - I am assuming that there is - all the police stations in my area have cameras - has not been shown on the net. If there is a video then it is clearly a good sign that some degree of respect for the accused is being kept.
Evidently angry soldiers attacking police stations aren’t only restricted to Americans -
http://economictimes.indiatime.....015663.cms
That’s one surmise, Robert. Another is that the video has not been released because it would show that the officers used excessive force in subduing the suspect.
Just to let you all know I am the Soldier who got his ass beat by the KNP. Thanks for the support America, FYI: I went to look out for my fellow soldiers when they got into some trouble at the UN club. I was protesting the arrest, they are my fellow comrades and I will look out for them, that is how we are trained. I did not deserve to be pushed out of the police station, grabbed and threatened. I did not understand the commotion and protected my self the way I was taught. Maybe if someone their spoke English this would have never happened. I got the shit kicked out of me when they could have restrained me after the first blow to the back of skull with the baton that they are not allowed to use in the first place. From that one blow to the head I was knocked on my face, jumped and beaten until I was unconscious by numerous Korean Police Officers. I woke up in a ambulance and was taken to 121 Military Hospital where I received staples to stop the intense bleeding. A fellow battle buddy PV2 J, who saw the whole thing told me exactly what happened and stuck by my side through the whole situation.He then told me my face is cut up because they took my face and pounded it into the asphalt after I was restrained and covered in blood. Then they dragged me into the police station and left me their bleeding for numerous minutes until the Military Police put me into an ambulance. Theirfore I was beaten like Rodney King and mistreated as if I weren’t here to keep the peace between North and South Korea as more then job but as a life style. I have no problem with the South Koreans I just don’t agree about how most South Koreans feel about American Soldiers being in their country and protecting them because they don’t want to realize what we are actually here for, we are here for them not us. Well FYI: I am going through a Chapter 14 for Misconduct and will no longer be here to Serve my Country which I signed up for. I did not sign up to come to Korea and to get into trouble, I signed up for a better life for my Wife and myself and my family, and last but not least for my country because I believe that my self, my future family and friends should have the same freedom and rights that my forefathers have fought for a long time ago.Therefore I signed the papers to do my time in the Military to put my life at risk for what I believe, but yet I get shat on. I am taught how to act and defend my self by the Military and It is not my fault that the Police were looking for American soldiers to get at that night. All I did is not leave a fallen battle buddy which is beamed into my head by the Military. So therefore I did not leave my fellow battle buddies that night, all I did was look out for their well being by checking on them after the incident that happened that night. But know one knows that I was in the club that night and some one pulled a knife out on me because I was in his way so therefore I left the club. And on my way to retrieve another PV2 J to go home that night that is when I saw my fellow comrades being arrested by the Korean police so I went to check on them which is I remind you is beamed into my head by the Military. And as I checked on them they said all was ok so you can go if you want but naturally I stuck around to make sure they were ok. When I received news from people that they did not commit this crime so therefore I protested which is my right I was then pushed out the police station and grabbed, I was threatened by the police and acted in self defense and I have picture to show I was beaten and about the video tape their was numerous video tapes of the conflict that showed what happened that night but they were all erased and taken by Korean Police and then they acted like there were none i just cant believe that since im in Korea doing my job as a soldier that I have no chance of wining in court that is all I have for now and if you want to know more you can respond to me at mario.duprey@us.army.mil
“…When I received news from people that they did not commit this crime…”
So were you in the police station protesting to the police when you didn’t actually see what happened between the bouncer and the other soldiers in the club?
“I am going through a Chapter 14 for Misconduct and will no longer be here to Serve my Country”
This line leads me to believe… I don’t think the US army would kick out someone (especially someone who claims innocense) unless there has been a lot of past disciplinary problems. I don’t condone what those cops did, but I bet my money they probably were intimidated by your size and agressiveness.
Well Now I have to figure out what to do with my self… I do not have a Military career anymore. The cop who changed my life forever got 3,000 cash and I lost a career because one man put his hands on me then ran to press charges on me ASAP. Don’t like Americans do ya. If it was a Korean National or ROK he would have said sorry and that would have been that….
General B Bell, is the one who gave me the General Under Honorable discharge which I could have fought, at the time all I wanted to do was to see my family and get out of Korea. Now I am stuck I love what I did day by day for my country. One problem and It all goes away… Good Luck America and for the KNP thanks for getting me fired, ASS HOLE
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[...] This incident has already been covered pretty extensively over at the Marmot’s Hole (be sure to read the comments) but just in case you’re interested, here’s the Stars & Stripes version of events: Three soldiers will be prosecuted on charges stemming from a fight at an Itaewon nightclub in November, Seoul prosecutors said Friday. Pvt. Sylvester Antley Clark, 22, and Spc. Tydes Teron Whiten, 27, were charged with assaulting a bouncer at the U.N. Club, while Pfc. Mario Duprey, 22, has been charged with unlawful interference with a police officer, an official at the Seoul Central Prosecutor’s Office said. The soldiers, who are based at K-16 Air Base in southern Seoul, were returned to U.S. Forces Korea custody after being questioned by police. Clark and Whiten were fighting with another foreigner at the club Nov. 11 when a U.S. military policeman stopped the fight, a Yongsan Prefectural Police spokesman said. A bouncer listed only as Mr. Lee, 28, tried to escort Clark and Whiten out when he was struck twice over the head with a beer bottle, according to police reports. Clark and Whiten were quickly arrested. While police questioned the soldiers, Duprey told them to let his fellow soldiers go, police said. When police told him to leave, Duprey allegedly punched the two police officers. “Fortunately, no one assaulted by the U.S. soldiers was seriously injured,” a Seoul police spokesman said. The soldiers appeared drunk at the time, he added. [...]
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