Tomorrow is the Big Trip to the Embassy. We will apply for my daughter’s passport in the morning and my wife’s visa in the afternoon. My big worry (which I haven’t gotten any help on, despite a couple weeks of attempts) is figuring out how to prove that the embassy has my wife’s I-130 on file without hacking their computer. Hopefully, they will just be able to pull it up.
What does this have to do with a public affairs blog? Not much, but I can’t help but compare the byzantine bureaucracy I have to deal with from the US government to the relative simplicity of the Korean system.
The folks I have dealt with at the US embassy have almost as a rule been courteous and helpful (both in my personal dealings and in my work getting visas for my students) but the amount of red tape you have to deal with there can drive you insane.
On the other hand, Korea bureaucrats that I have deal with often seem to go out of their way to be helpful to the point of less formal about regulations.
This is the positive side of Korea’s infamous lack of rule of law (or rule by law as Brendon Carr put it). Workers at immigration or the local dong office will often concentrate on the end rather than the means (to the point of ingoring some formal requirement if it is clear to them that you are not trying to get away with anything).
If you are a guy dealing with any Korean government officials, here is my advice: shave, wear a tie, and be polite. That will take you a long way.
UPDATE: I got it done. Things went pretty smoothly in the US services section. We waited for about an hour to get to the window (no biggy since we had planned on that). It turns out that I had overprepared on the documents since I had already gotten my daughter’s birth report last February (the document list on the embassy homepage is for the passport/birth report combo).
We had to wait outside with all the other poor souls for a little over an hour to get into the visa interview section of the embassy. But once we got inside, I waited in the second line for about five minutes. After a brief glace at my papers, the lady sent me to the third line (8 minute wait). Then the guy at the window checked my wife’s forms (she waited across the room with our daughter). After a quick finger scan, we went upstairs to wait for our interview.
The interview itself took only a couple of minutes. Once again, we only ended up submitting half of the documents we had prepared. I think the fact that my wife was applying for her second visa helped.
In total, we spent only about 40 minutes inside the embassy. Not bad at all.
I am not going to heap praise on the embassy staff for doing their jobs (only soldiers, fire fighters and a few others get that), but they did their jobs well.
36 Comments
US Embassy Korea is the worst of both worlds - a system based on the rule of law administered in large part by local clerical hires whose pettifoggery would leave Dickens gum-smacked. If you qualify for the citizens services window you nevertheless are generally treated well, particularly if you are polite and patient. Try getting something done there if you are a Korean national, though, and you’ll be lucky to be treated as a supplicant at the court of Jaba the Hut. Bear in mind that the dispensers of this treatment are almost always Koreans putting on airs.
Vogons.
As someone on the US side of the window, I don’t care if you shave or wear a tie, but polite certainly never hurts. It boggles my mind just how rude, confrontational and hostile some US people can be. The Ugly American is alive and well. (Yeah, I know the book, but I’m referring to the term as it exists in the popular consciousness).
And whatever you may do, please don’t mention how you pay taxes and hence my salary. First of all, I’ll congratulate you for complying with the 16th Amendment of the US Constitution (I pay taxes as well; in fact, unlike most of you, as a federal government employee, I pay taxes on all my income derived overseas).
And I have to disagree with the commenter about embassy foreign national employees putting on airs. I’ve been in India and Taiwan, and you haven’t seen the meaning of ‘putting on airs’ until you see a US citizen come into our facility attempting to intimidate and demean our foreign national colleagues because they are carrying that almighty blue passport. Naturalized citizens of the countries in question are the worst offenders, but native born Americans are not guiltless either. It happens all the time, and it is the most embarrassing part of my job.
I’m here to tell you that if it wasn’t for the foreign nationals who staff our embassies and consulates we couldn’t begin to provide the depth of services that we do, so treat them with decency and respect: if you are dissatisfied for any reason, be polite and ask to speak with an American officer.
Believe me, we are here to help, and we want to help, but throw us a bone.
I’ll second that. I went to the embassy most of the time when my wife had to go, and the difference between what I saw in the treatment of Koreans (by Koreans) in the two sides was stark and obviously noticable. It was like I was at the express bus terminal (of just about any large Korean city I’ve been to).
The only bad time I’ve had at the US Embassy was doing the paperwork to get married. We needed to use my sister’s tax returns to show means of support since I had been working in Korea the previous 3 or 4 years. Only, my sister, using our families sense of humor, had been creative when writing out what her occupation had been the last 3 years on the line beside her signiture. She figured since her W2s had it listed on it, it didn’t really matter.
So, on the three years we needed for the support papers, my sister was a fruit inspector in Tampa, something like a garment tag inspector in NY, and a mohel - the Jewish guy who performs the circumcisions in their rite.
I had wondered why so many people who had gotten there way later than us had been processed and let go way before us. We were some of the last left.
The young American guy who finally sat us down wanted to laugh when he explained to me what a mohel was, but something in my face said that would be a wrong more, so he smothered it.
I actually wasn’t, at that moment, pissed. From the second I caught on to what was going on, I was thinking of how to work around it, and knew I couldn’t that day at the embassy, so I was just wanting him to hand us the paperwork and let us go.
It actually worked out fine. After some leg work on the internet, I called the US tax office in Japan and faxed them my sister’s W2s which she had faxed to me. The Japanese office was very helpful, getting their end of the paperwork done in a sped up fashion so we could hope to make our trip as scheduled, and they sent the stuff to the US Embassy in Korea and my wife went and picked up the visa three days later with it waiting for her at the window.
Not sure exactly what you’re applying for here, but I recently had to get my wife her permanent resident’s card. The process for us was:
1. get lawyer
2. show up for interview and don’t say the n– word to black, female interviewer
3. get passport stamped
There’s was a pretty strong anti-immigration feeling in the US just recently, especially among the Republican party. The Republican party has been writing the laws, so it’s no big mystery that there are complicated systems in place that can easily be circumvented by hiring an expensive lawyer and not being a retard in your interviews. I know a lot of the bloggers here are pretty conservative, but the Republican platform does NOT include “make life easy for expats teaching English on the other side of the planet.”
It’s interesting how awesome some ideas sound right up until you bump into the practical applications of them.
/registered Republican, in the interest of full disclosure
My experience at the embassy here in Seoul has always been great except for one time I got all forms and information off the the website and thought I was prepared only to learn that the website was out of date and there were new hard copy forms and had to start all over again
Other than that everything there is pretty good you have to know what time to go there when its not so busy.
Of course. That income is derived from a U.S. source, which is not true for many of us.
I suppose you meant that as a dig, but I’m at a loss to understand why Uncle Sam thinks I owe him tax money on my income earned in one country working for an employer headquartered in another, neither of which is the United States of America.
I’ve long believed the U.S. should emulate the U.S.S.R. in that respect — everyone from the ambassador to the janitor was a citizen of the U.S.S.R. No foreign national employees.
A civil servant I knew said she would always respond to people who said “Don’t forget, my taxes pay your salary!” by giving them a dime and saying “Here is your contribution to my salary back. Now get lost!” Of course, she only did this to the really rude people. But I thought it was pretty good.
As for Korean bureaucracy, it is interesting. I agree that most of the times government agencies will help you out in every way they can. but Koreans are sticklers for rules. If they have a policy, they will stick to it regardless of how ridiculous it is in a certain situation or how big of an exception you may be. For example, my friend, a married undergraduate student, wanted to get into married housing at Seoul Nat. The university would never make an exception because they said it was married housing for graduate students. Even though my friend fruitlessly pointed out that there were probably less than 5 married undergraduates on campus, and they weren’t about to try and move in, the university stood firm! Way to go! Stand up for the rule!
clark66: Koreans are sticklers for rules? Surely you jest.
The embassy people seemed decent and professional enough at the window and did put me through much seemingly superfluous accounting, but they did their best and were as courteous as they could be, during the several times I have needed paperwork from them. (perhaps I should hire an adjuma to represent me when I go there. She might be able to quell any additional problems by her innate adjuma power . . .)
I have noted from others that have had children born in Korea that they must actually take the baby, within 30 days of birth, down to the embassy to show the person at the window a live baby for them to issue a passport. I’ve wondered if there was not a better way to do such since many do not want to bring the baby out into the weather, just after birth.
The one weak link I have noticed (per comment 6) is that the information on the website may say one thing, but the real, live person one speaks to will tell one something else, thus I have found it important to talk to someone first before showing up at the embassy. The website needs to be accurately and extensively modified or else many others will run into problems when they show up with what they thought was the correct papers.
dogbertt,
actually, Uncle Sam doesn’t expect you to pay any taxes on foreign earned income until it exceeds a certain level, I believe currently 85K.
With regards to your other comment, sure we could do like the Russians, but that is why in most countries they have just 2 or 3 blokes who provide almost nothing in the way of services. I’d hate to be a Russian stranded abroad, in say, Bangalore.
You should also realize that there are many, many US citizens abroad and they need the services we provide.
If we are to continue the levels of service Americans abroad expect, you have two options: local hires, or bring in massive amounts of Americans. Of course, the latter option will necessitate susbstantial incerase in the taxes you don’t seem to want to pay.
Which, actually, is a concern for those of us who are not here teaching English.
What happens when your income exceeds that limit? You are taxed on the excess, but on the basis of your ENTIRE income. In other words, that deduction has lost most of its utility. That’s the new tax law change. Not to mention the loss of other exemptions. The NYT (and of course the NYT-owned IHT) have had numerous articles explaining this.
But why should Uncle Sam expect even that? I am actually saving him money by not using his roads, his services, his whatever. Why is he charging me for that?
I’m concerned more about misuse of confidential material, espionage, etc. I would be willing to pay more in taxes for the benefit of that threat reduction.
BTW, let me tell you something.
My taxes are not paying for those services. The U.S. Embassy _charges_ for those services at inflated rates that increase every year.
For example, why does it cost at least three times as much to get a document notarized at the U.S. Embassy in Seoul than it does in the U.S.? Not to mention taking more than three times as long.
dogbertt,
yes your taxes ARE paying for those services because it’s all part of expenditures necessary to maintain our presence abroad. But in any event, everything we do, including fee structures, has the congressional stamp of approval, to include our funding which comes from Congress and whom we all elect every two years.
So if you would like to propose that we re-outfit along the lines of Soviet efficiency, you’ll have to take that fight up with Congress. I can’t wait for the debates.
Thank you, your Highness, for the real-time lesson on the courtesy, efficiency, and all ’round helpful attitude we can expect from our consular representatives abroad.
I think you could even teach the DMV a thing or two.
Excuse me, what does any of this have to do with me, again?
I think this is pretty solid advice when dealing with officials/beaurocrats of any nature. The bold part being the most important. I would say tie optional,but dress well.
Above all, shave. Canadian women, this means you!
In Australia we used to refer to government workers as public servants. The counter monkey from the compound might do well to ponder the meaning of that instead of offering schoolmarmish chidings and short-handed explanations of why he is not only an efficient use of your tax money, but an officious bugger who is wont to remind you of his employer’s extra-territorial income pilfering.
I’m confused. Are you going on a trip?
Dogbert, you want the US embassy to only hire Americans, yet you seem to have a problem that you have to pay US taxes. Did it ever occr to you that every foreign national probably saves the US government in the neighbor of 40,000 dollars once salaries, accomodations, benefits, etc are figured? Multiply that by all the US embassies and consulates in the world. Your complaint about having to pay taxes strikes me as silly. I know I am quite willing to pay a lot of money for my blue passport, the passport that cause me no hassle to go to most countries in the world, the passport that will allow me to be evacuated in event of war, the passport that will come in handy if I am ever arrested.
To the above, that figure could easily be reclaimed from a few pork projects or the scrapping of a couple of peices of corporate welfare.
Your point is moot, as all of us know that the U.S. will not cease its practice of staffing its overseas posts with mostly foreign nationals, with a smattering of FSE’s. Ergo, there will be no increased costs.
To put your other points in perspective, a Canadian passport will also get you to most countries in the world, perhaps more than your (and my) blue one. I doubt that other Western embassies offer less service to their arrested nationals than does the U.S. In the event of war in Korea, my evacuation is doubtful regardless which passport I bear. Not to mention that all of that has jack all with taxing my income that is not derived from a U.S. source and is not earned in the U.S.
Can you explain why the U.S. is alone among advanced nations in taxing the incomes of its nationals working overseas? The truth is, there is no direct correlation to that policy and the issuance of my passport.
Birddog,
Cain’t you jest be proud to be a ‘Murrican and kwitcher bellyachin’? But just wait until Uncle George gets his wish to expand the military so you can really see how much it will cost to defend
the world from itselfour liberty.Unless you like watching Arirang TV while waiting in the American Services Section bring a book. Or three. There are not enough FBI’s Most Wanted posters to read to idle the time away.
On the positive side since no visitor can bring a mobile phone inside it reminds one of days long gone. But it isn’t peace and quiet because you can’t help eavesdropping on the conversations between the officials and those who have cocked up or forgotten required documents–you’ll be seated just a few feet away.
I think some of us have missed a key point or have slid past the point here and there:
at the Seoul embassy, there is a stark difference between how the (Korean) staff deals with many of the people they deal with day to day.
My wife and I both noticed it. I’ve heard it from other expats and Koreans who have had dealings with both areas of the embassy or the Korean side. I’ve even read Koreans mentioning it in the press.
The American nationals side - where my wife and I went to have our marriage documents handled - was very helpful and business-like to friendly.
The side where the Korean nationals have to go to get visas - on the other hand - was bad enough to not only be noticed but complained about.
And people do complain.
And as far as I can remember, I can’t recall any of these “rude” tales I’ve heard over the years in the Korean visa side included an American being the ugly one. (In my own case, the guy actually felt sorry that my sister had gummed up the works with her sense of humor).
—– The stories that I heard were about how the Korean staff that handles most of the work load were perhaps what is the typical stereotype of civil service workers in Korea — incredibly rude.
And that is a point. It isn’t just the embassy.
Koreans talk about this amongst themselves: how Koreans (especially women) who get a civil service job become arrogant to the people they are supposed to be helping — (who are other Koreans).
Why would we expect the staff at the US Embassy be any different?
Some things never change. It was this way in Korea 30 years ago. It is also the way things are at just about every US Consulate around the globe, particularly those in ‘developing’ countries. Try dropping by the consulate in Beijing and watch how the locals are treated by their countrymen staffers behind the bulletproof glass.
The entire process is one big jumble of arrogance and rudeness. On all sides.
Koreans applying for visas stand in long-ass lines, pay out the ass for translations and other fees, and deal with arrogant and rude embassy staff that they consider semi-traitorous for siding with the enemy. Not to mention the fact that they consider it “demeaning” that they have to apply for a visa in the first place when the Japanese don’t have to.
Korean embassy staff, on the other hand, have to deal with rude, arrogant, pissed-off Koreans all day who give them no respect and feel like they’re entitled to a visa and favorable treatment from the staff simply because they’re fellow Koreans. They get accused of being on the side of the Americans at every turn, and are often asked to look the other way or bend the rules, as is the standard for other Koreans working civil service jobs in the Korean government.
Rude and arrogant meets rude and arrogant… Don’t be surprised when the result is a cluster-fuck.
True with many other embassies in SK. The Koreans working at the French Embassy, Consular Services, Visa section, are the worst – but the ones hidden in offices behind the walls not much better. I also have a Korean friend who was turned away from the Canadian embassy by fellow Koreans when she went and enquired about acquiring the citizenship – she was born and had lived some years in Canada. Basically she was told “whadda fuck you need the Canadian citizenship for? You ashamed of being Korean or something?”
Then again, those of us who’ve been to Korea’s Consulate in Tokyo to pick up their visa may have some pretty good memories of how unfriendly some of the – locally hired but Korean – clerks there could be. There was one ajumma I saw there for a few years who really took the cake. But then again, when you show up with a paper that says “Give the visa. Now.” there’ not much they can do…
The life goal of many Koreans is getting into a position that allows them to lord it rudely over others.
I always like it when Koreans tell how their experience at the US Embassy made them anti-American. The arrogance, the rudeness, etc. Then you ask who they dealt with, and they say “a Korean.”
Woah. I certainly wasn’t planning on starting a Korean-bashing session when I made this post.
All these Busan 9-inspired disclaimers will get you bloggers nowhere.
After having gotten another one of those emails related to the http://www.usinkorea.org site blasting me for bashing Korea (email from a non-Korean) and telling me that in 4 years this expat had never witnessed any anti-US attitudes —
—do we really have to go here?
I thought we were bashing civil service workers….
and I thought/know Koreans do the same thing.
Is this like black people in the US being able to use the N-word and not others?
(I’m not picking on what Andy wrote. It and the email just scratched the scab of “Korea bashing” again…)
Andy,
I’m happy to hear it went smoothly for you.
“I have noted from others that have had children born in Korea that they must actually take the baby, within 30 days of birth, down to the embassy to show the person at the window a live baby for them to issue a passport. I’ve wondered if there was not a better way to do such since many do not want to bring the baby out into the weather, just after birth.”
This is true. However, for children born to USFK personnel outside of the Seoul area a waiver is available so these children do not have to be taken to the embassy in Seoul. Taking a month old child out in below freezing weather and putting up with demonstrators was not a good experience.
In defense of Dogbert, an 85K exemption does not cover the housing allowance for us non English teaching ex-pats. While I do see a value in our civil servants at the Embassy I also recognize that with all tit suckling government agencies, we tax payers are paying a premium for these services. I have witnessed over the years the “complexity” of the services rendered from the American Services department and I am here to say that anyone with reasonable English skills and the ability to operate a computer could probably handle the task. I have also worked with the commercial sector of the embassy. They are bright and helpful people but they again are high priced consultants. I think Uncle Sam needs to look to localizing a lot of the services. I would venture to guess that qualified people could be assigned to the job without the high overhead that is currently built into the gig. I know the Canadians have locally hired Canadians on their payroll, it is possible!
2 Trackbacks
[...] Forget the six party nuclear talks, the big news of the week had to be that Hooters is coming to Korea. Maybe the US can offer Kim Jong-il a Hooters franchise as part of a denuclearizing deal? An appreciation for big breasts is something that everyone should be able to agree upon. Call it Hooters Diplomacy. However, check this out if you just have to read something about the six party talks. It appears China may be getting itself involved in more than just North Korea negotiations as Israel has called on China to become involved in the Middle East peace process. Well if you think the six party talks are frustrating, according to some the US Embassy in Seoul is just as frustrating. [...]
[...] While I would personally love for Korea to get a waiver interviews for tourist visas (to avoid the hassle of going to the embassy), I don’t think it will happen anytime soon. [...]