Foreigners have apparently gotten a rude welcome in the town of Pocheon northeast of Seoul, reports the Korea Times.
Of course, American-born Japanese David Aldwinckle launched his activist career with this sort of thing in Otaru, Japan.
My all-time favorite example of this was back in 2003 when brothels in Mia-ri, blaming increasing numbers of foreign laborers for declining business, put up “no foreigner” signs in a failed bid attract greater local clientele.
For what it’s worth, I’ve never, ever been turned away from a sauna—or any other establishment, for that matter—owing to my severe pigmentation deficiency.
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Saying that the ban is in effect because some South-East Asian people go in the sauna in their undergarments is total BS. If that really was their concern, they wouldn’t have banned foreigners. Instead, they would have posted signs telling patrons that towels and swimwear are the only accepted garments in the sauna.
who wears any garments in a sauna anyway? towels only please…
It’s so in-your-face, too, like they’re proud of refusing foreigners and intend to use it (like the Miari gals) as a selling point. The word foreigner in red ink for added opprobrium.
BTW, what’s with not letting foreigners use the PC-rooms? We can’t make them any noisier or foul-smelling than they already are.
“Pride of Asia.” “Hub of Asia.”
As usual the KT buries more important points: “A violation of one’s right to freedom includes being beaten by a boss or co-worker, which happens to one in five migrant workers in Korea, according to Amnesty International.” That’s a bit worse than underwear in the sauna.
Mr.Chips, in some cultures the taboo of public nudity also applies to the sauna. Besides, this is the first time I’ve heard of anyone being offended by a person not being naked. As I was saying, it’s total BS.
Next thing you know, we’ll be kept out of the rest-rooms because our refusal to grind cigarettes out in our spittle makes the other patrons nervous.
I’ve never gotten naked in a Korean Sauna… Ban me! Ban me! Ban me!
If those migrant workers aren’t being served by that sauna, another sauna/PC Bang will open up and advertise themselves as “foreigner friendly” (at a slightly increased price unfortunately) in an effort to capture that market segment… capitalism.
Aren’t there still “Foreigner Only” signs in Itaewon? And “No Foreigner” and “No Korean” signs in Hongdae?
These signs must exist until Koreans learn to co-exist.
a white friend of mine was refused service at an 안마 because his thingy was too big for the girls to handle, at least that’s what my friend said. he said he came away feeling both offended and proud at the same time. go figure.
How could those hookers and pimps earn any money. It’s like shooting yourself in the foot because prostitution, after all, only exists in Korea to cater to the ‘needs’ of US soldiers.
In all seriousness, if those hookers were really concerned about HIV, they’d make their customers use condoms.
“BTW, what’s with not letting foreigners use the PC-rooms? ”
Yeah, it seems pretty inoffensive, but it isn’t because the first thing that comes to mind when you hear that is that foreigners only go there to watch internet porn.
Raises the possibility, seoulmilk, that thingy-envy might be at work in Pocheon.
South Korea simply needs to make racial discrimination a crime. It’s ironic that there is no protection against it in the Korean constitution, where it was one of the basic principles of the 1919 declaration of independance.
montclaire, while that might be a possibility, I don’t think Korean men would be envious of other asian men.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6161691.stm
The Koreans deserve some praise in this regard. Yes, it’s true that in general they hate us (“us” in this case meaning “not them”) and would prefer we were all dead or otherwise not living in Korea or visiting this place, except to stay in five — nay, seven! — star hotels and splash money around in boutiques. But they hate us in the abstract — those damn foreigners.
As individuals, especially but not limited to individuals who can communicate using the Korean language, generally Koreans are okay with us. Korea is definitely more friendly to the wayward foreigner than Japan is, although as a general rule Japanese are more polite than Koreans are. In Korea if you can’t speak Korean, someone will appear as if by magic to try to help you, albeit rudely. In Tokyo, I get the impression they’d just politely step over your prostrate body and be on their merry. Certainly Japanese are less likely to help the lost foreigner.
There are also many places that a foreigner cannot enter in Japan under any circumstances (no matter how good his Japanese and no matter whether he has naturalized as a Japanese citizen), sex establishments being the leading examples but also public bathhouses and some inns, as well as many landlords who refuse to rent to foreigners. It’s a polite fuck you, but please fuck you very much, thank you. In Korea, while language is often thought (by Koreans) to be a barrier, EVERY public accommodation ultimately can be persuaded to accept a foreigner, so long as the foreigner is clean and polite and makes some attempt to be friendly. Since I do speak Korean, I can say without a doubt that there is no business in Korea which would refuse my patronage, and I especially like public bathhouses (the deep hot bath is fantastic in the winter). The phone company, credit-card companies, and banks (for home loans) still have a ways to go, but Korea is way more hospitable than Japan. My experience may be colored by my language ability in Korean, and ignorance of Japanese language, but I don’t think so.
This story in the Korea Times is an odd exception, whereas David Aldwinckle’s experience in Japan seems par for the course.
This happened in KOREA?! The Korean constitution leaves out the whole idea of people of other races being equal in any way to Koreans, but this story just can’t be true. Koreans are so kind, friendly and polite to foreigners so this is not fact. The Japanese are at fault for this because no Korean would ever dream of such a thing! Shame on anyone who believes that Koreans would have anything to do with this. Unlike western countries (especially the US) where racism is a serious social problem, Koreans would never do anything like this. Just look at Hines Ward. If he had spent his life in Korea, he would have been ten times more successful than he was in the US. Because of his mixed heritage, he didn’t have a chance in the US, in Korea he and his mom would’ve been just fine. Nope, Koreans are not to blame.
Brendon: I agree.
It’s very schizophrenic really, most Koreans dislike the outside world in the abstract, but are much friendlier to the Korean-speaking foreigner than to Koreans they don’t know.
Or white foreigner, we should always be careful to add.
I think if I was a non-white foreigner I’d (marginally) rather be in Japan, where at least a modicum of civility is preserved in shops, restaurants etc.
Brendon:
I had the exact opposite experience as you when I lived in Japan. For example, one time a woman walked me to a consulate that I couldn’t find. I was going in the opposite direction and it took 30 minutes.
Mr. Carr, you’re talking as a paleface. That’s more my experience too as one of the privileged bignoses. But many, many times Koreans have described S-E Asians as “dirty” in front of me–guess that’s why they don’t want them in the sauna.
“Some people have some prejudice against Southeast Asian or migrant workers,” but Westerners usually have a privileged status, Lee said. There you go.
Kim Crow.
Have you ever heard the whole “jews control the world’s banks and the American media blah blah” from Koreans? I’ve heard that more times here than I can count. Do Koreans get assigned “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” in school?
Now watch, somebody’s going to reply that it’s all true. Pawi?
seoulmilk,
Did they inspect his thingy before refusing service?
I would probably agree with alot of what Brendon said except that his impression of Japan sounds like someone who never got outside of Tokyo. His description, in fact, sounds exactly like Tokyo and nothing like any other part of Japan that I have been to. Korea is more accommodating? Maybe. More hospitable? No way. For what it’s worth…
You “get the impression”? Come on…
Why white skin got me better treatment in stores outside of Seoul than I saw Korean customers getting.
Some of this had to do with the fact that when I started in Wonju in 1996 or so, the teacher I was replacing had been the first and only native English speaking expat working in the hagwon industry there. By the time I arrived, there were maybe a half dozen to a dozen and it increased considerably every 6 months.
I have a feeling the desire to talk to a (white) foreigner has not gone out of places like Wonju, however, despite the rise in expat teachers.
If you were black or non-European, however, even back then…..
In response to Brendon, I have been to Tokyo multiple times and yes I think Tokyo is not as foreigner friendly as Seoul because I think they are just so used to seeing foreigners there they blend in with everyone else. I have traveled around rural areas in Japan and I have found the people there very helpful. Even in Kyoto a major city, I found the people there to be very foreigner friendly.
I think Brendon made a good point about language though. Being able to speak just a little Korean goes a long ways to improving your experience in Korea.
Pour Michael. To be sung “Con molto cheong.”
When you are in Pocheon, you must do as the Pocheonese
Or they’ll keep you from their saunas and their shiny new PCs
Take your loincloth off in the sauna (it’s really not that tough)
And keep it on in the PC Bang when you’re admiring Almond’s…
Whoops.
Your view of Japanese is completely distorted. They’ll help anyone in need unless you are old and dead:
http://tinyurl.com/sgpmt
LOL that was brilliant montclaire. Seems like it’s ALWAYS“Con molto cheong”in Korea
Actually Michael, if you remember one of my earlier masterpieces, “It’s all because of the Japs,” that should be sung “Con molto han.”
Ah yes, the cheong of han, or the han of cheong, or whatever. Damn those Japanese!
Speaking of different points of views regarding how foreigners are treated here, I know a Korean European with a Japanese passport (figure that one out) who speaks fluent Korean but with an accent. The ridicule she received here was so demeaning that for a period of time she would have me speak on her behalf and unlike her, I am not fluent!
She has since left Korea. She hated it here even though her family has moved back to live here.
Also, I know of SE Asian migrant workers who speak fluent Korean as well but that doesn’t always grant them the benefits a Caucasian Korean-speaking person often gets. Also, I met (I think they were Turkish or Central Asian) migrant workers who spoke very good Korean but for whatever reason they weren’t being served at a cafe here.
It is amazing the sort of reception one gets not only according to ethnicity or langauge ability but simply other status-defining traits.
I wonder who would get more respect? A fluent Korean speaking Caucasian Central American or a fluent Korean speaking Caucasian American?
I have been on each of the main islands of Japan and Okinawa as well and was always treated very well.
That being said I also was never refused service to place in Korea for being a foreigner.
I know there are places for Koreans only but in all honestly have you ever been to a Korean nightclub? They SUCK
I wouldn’t want to go to one anyway so why give a rat’s ass if they dont want me there?
Yhe last thing I want to see in bars populated by foreigners is a boatload of Korean guys coming in like they own the place and the women, however since it happens the best thing to see is a group of Korean guys come in to say helios or geckos with their suits and ties and enough hair gel to clog a drainage system, start hitting on all the chicks at the bar and tables, get shot down and the same girls 15 minutes later start hooking up with a foreign guy drinking and dancing together.
They walk out all pissed off, calling the girls there whores and sluts and then head right down to 588 miari to the same place that is off limits to foreigners!!!
I am sure it’s good for their already fragile egos.
Hmm… How wide spread is the Japanese bath houses and restaurants refusing service to the foreigners?
Isn’t it just in some parts of Hokkaido(past problems w/ Russian sailors) and Tsushima (past problems w/ S.Korean tourists). I’m not familiar with the Hokkaido story, but I’ve heard that in Tsushima, they had problems like the S.Korean tourists getting into the hot baths without washing themselves down and even washing their underwears.
I’ve never seen such signs anywhere in the vicinity of Tokyo. And when I went to Hakone (famous for natural spring hot baths) with a group of my friends, three very caucasian looking and two asian looking, we weren’t denied anything in the least.
This issue is a bit complicated. Like Brendon mentions, in Japan, there is discrimination that is very polite but still discrimination and can not be surmounted no matter what, though I suspect a gun or money would go a long way in inspiring more openness in such situations.
Where one could not get around such in Japan, it is easier to get past such in Korea, depending upon one’s demeanor, for example, the notion of “face” is important. If one has what Koreans would consider a good face (no scars, not a scary-looking MF, not gloomy, good facial proportions, etc.), is friendly and works with the language, potential barriers can be avoided, unless one is dealing with real losers (that has happened only a few times to me).
There is also an art to making one’s personae seem smaller so as not to inspire feelings of inadequacy. One should have some empathy to people around them as well. There is also the need to deal with people who are good natured from the start. If one goes to a place that attracts low-life type of people, do not expect altruism.
Basically, there is some discrimination in Korea but I have found it to be more common with only a minority of people in Korea. I have met, by far, very nice people here.
(I’m sorry if much of this seems so obvious to some but some people engage in generalizations and never seem to raise their awareness above a certain level)
I’m assuming you haven’t spoken at length with many of the little brown people doing 3D jobs in Korea Brendon… Because if you had, you’d know that the Korea Times story is the rule and not the exception. Of course usually the signs aren’t necessary, so business owners will just refuse service without explanation when they don’t want the dirty ones soiling their establishment.
From your perspective and for the rest of the whitebread, the exception and not the rule.
A lot of the foreign denials of Korean racism are in effect saying, “I’m linguistically gifted, interculturally sensitive, well-groomed and all around charming, and I have never encountered even a frown from this wonderfully hospitable people,” etc, the accompanying implication being that those who do encounter racism are themselves to blame.
I have talked like this too in the past, but I don’t think I will anymore. I have a feeling a Bangladeshi can graduate from Oxford in Korean Studies, go to the Pocheon sauna in a tuxedo, and still be sent packing by the hag at the door.
I’m not denying Korean racism. Nor do I blame the sauna experience on anyone. I’m saying that as a relative concept, in this respect Korea is nicer than Japan.
‘i’m sure it’s good for their already fragile egos.’ mcnut thumping his chest
perhaps they’re not the only ones with fragile egos. thanks for your post, stud.
‘you ever talk to ‘little brown people’(poster’s words) in korea, brendan?’ poster
you ever talk to ‘little brown people’ in japan? don’t bother telling me they have it better because better is not much.
usinkorea, I’ve lived in Wonju. People there are nice enough to me, maybe more than in the little town in which I live now. I’d say it’s because there are many foreigners in Wonju, thanks to the US bases and the well developped industries that hire a large number of migrant workers. I certainly don’t feel scrutinized there like I sometimes do here, despite the fact I’ve been in this town for so many years, people should have figured out by now that I’m pretty harmless and boring.
Montclaire, why would I “go to the Pocheon sauna”? The place obviously is run by the wrong sort of people. If one goes to a schmoe house, then expect to be greeted by some schmoe at the door.
Additionally, no matter who a person may be, no matter where they are, that person is always going to be the boogeyman to somebody else.
SomeguyinKorea remarked – “South Korea simply needs to make racial discrimination a crime.”
To my knowledge, there are official avenues that offer redress against this type of discrimination – a complaint can be filed at the National Human Rights Commission, 국가인권관리 위원회. The officers at the Commission will undertake an investigation, and seek to “persuade” the business to discontinue discriminatory practices. I successfully used this method to pressure the Education Channel to allow foreigners without national ID #s access to their website – granted they were more enlightened than the sauna owners. I suggest that someone who’s interested file a case and contact the media.
I like driving military vehicles through Pocheon because the kids there still wave like they used to do in Team Spirit.
There’s a big sex club across the stream parallel to highway 43 called Arabian Nights. Russian hoes are the main attraction. No foreign men allowed, though.
dodko, although laws protect foreign employees, there are none that protect foreign customers from discrimination. All the Commission can do in these cases is ‘persuade’ as Korean businesses have no legal obligations to adhere to their recommendations.
OK, just read the linked article – looks as though a case has been filed and the Human Rights Commission appears fairly impotent. Anyone interested in a picketed demonstration outside the sauna?
Mark,
I’d leave a message.
http://www.police.go.kr/eng/index.jsp
R.Elgin: “Montclaire, why would I go to the Pocheon sauna”
Why, you ask?
Where else can you soak with the yangban
While enjoying an ice-cold maitai?
Or have a discreet same-sex bang, man
While the ajumma turns a blind eye?
And if you’re lucky she’ll tongue-wash your belly
As Dr Ruth says, “it’s gut for your helce”
What a shame that a Sikh from New Delhi
Had to ruin it for everyone else!
SomeGuyInKorea,
Where do I leave the message? Photo Garrly [sic]?
I don’t have administrator privileges. >.
I had a pretty funny experience once. There was a pizza buffet we used to frequent in 신림동. They just bring you whole pans of pizza adn give you slices. When you start, the pizzas are pretty good and full of toppings. By the time you are on your 5th or 6th pizza, its hot dogs and corn. Anyway, we went there a few times, and they kept getting less friendly the more we ate. Then the last time we went there they had adjusted their menu and charged several 천원 more for foreigners. I thought that was pretty funny.
Overall, I agree that Koreans are nice if they feel you are from an affluent country. But if they feel you are below them, they are less nice. This of course is not everyone, there are nice Koreans a lot too, but it is in general I think.
clark66, so you’re the jerk who had to overdo it and ruin it for me. Thanks to you, I can’t afford to eat that delicious hot dog and corn pizza anymore.
:):)
If I were the vindictive sort I’d post a few dozen fliers, in Korean, in the sauna’s vacinity.
Korea is an extreme hierarchy society.
If you haven’t figure it out, here is the general structure in order of superiority:
1)Western Caucasions (Non Russians), and honorary Aryans like the Japanese
2)Koreans
(but group number 1 and group number 2 can interchange, depending on the situation)
3)North East Asians like the Chinese, Mongols, North Koreans, ethnic Koreans from China or Russia.
4)South East Asians (Thais, Vietnamese, Phillipine)
5)South Asians (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi)
6)Africans and African Americans
But for African Americans, they can be in group 6 or sometimes can interchange all the way up to group 1, depending on the situation.
The bottom line for me when I look at this is this. Koreans may discriminate on the basis of one’s color of skin, but I think what’s much more prevalent is the discrimination based on personal income, national GNP, and international status of the country.
That kind of explains why mixed race person of Caucasion and Korean heritage who looks like a white guy and who was born and raised in Korea gets discriminated but at the same time some white guy from Germany gets treated like a king. (again depending on the situation).
Bottom line – in Korea, income discrimination leads to racial discrimination. It’s about $$$.
As a hard-charging Korean apologist…oops …wrong posting
Having lived here for a great many years I can honestly say that I find Japan much more likely to turn you away for being a foreigner than Korea – and as Carr noted – whether it is because of language or not – I am unsure.
In regards to the saunas in Japan. The Robert Neff in Japan (I used to wish I were him but considering I have heard he recently passed away I no longer wish I were him) stated that he never had any problems and was never turned away – but he spoke Japanese and was almost an institution there – extremely famous for his insight into Japan.
I have been turned away from a lot of businesses in Korea (generally clubs and usually during some peak of anti-Americanism), but have found that if you speak Korean and act polite that things usually have a way of working out.
As to the sauna incident – I remember while serving with the military that we had this huge female soldier – with massive arms – and during one of the field exercises we were given coupons to use in one of the saunas in the nearby village. Three of us (two males and the female soldier) went to the sauna and gave handed over our coupons, but the female soldier was barred from entering——– you already know the answer —– the female sauna because the counter person was convinced that she was a “he”. We managed to explain that she was really a “she” and I am not sure who was more embarrassed – the counter person or the female soldier.
Robert, those she-males can ruin a good sauna.
If you are white and speak Korean, you will most definitely have a good time in Korea. Go to a restaurant and pretend you never had gooksoo before. “Geuh Geh Muh Nim Kah?” They might even give you free stuff just to watch the crazy white man who went out of his way to learn a difficult language that doesn’t pay off in economic terms. Pretend you never had Bbungtwigee in the street. I bet those street paddlers will give you extra.
If I was a korean speaking white man, I would go to Kwangju and say, “I always thought Junla food is the best” at restaurants and try to fish for some freebees. Then I will go to Pusan and say, “Dongrae Pajun is the best I had in Korea so far.” and fish for freebees too.
If you go to “goomung” stores and bow, they might give you the 100 won discount.
of course, korean “hierchy” of racism means that this won’t work if you are non-white.
Yes – it is truly good to be a Westerner at times in Korea when you can play the stupid card and pretend that everything is new. It does gain you the free samples at times – it also brings in the hordes of small children sent by their mothers to get a free English lesson from you or compliments on their angelic and sweet voices as they maul the ABC song.
virtual wonderer, admit it. You’re cheap.
What I can’t figure out is what the hell people in a one-horse town like Pocheon think makes them so damned special. They’ve only had paved roads for maybe ten or fifteen years now. Their ‘jang-nal’ used to be held along the banks of an open sewer.
Platoon-sized elements of hoes used to assault GI’s out in the valley for field exercises, offering their meager wares for C-rations, spent brass, and even less. They didn’t even bother to bring along their own poncho liners.
At night, the stalwart men of Pocheon would come out to steal every damned thing that wasn’t nailed down.
Thing was, they weren’t poor, by Korean standards.
It always bites my ass when I see people who can’t seem to remember that ‘way back in the day’ wasn’t that damned long ago.
Racism occurs every single country against minors in forms of discrimination, ignorance, contempt, and hatred violence. In Korea, its more towards migrant workers, ethnic Koreans from China or Russia and North Korean defectors. Thankfully, there’s no racist skinheads violence towards these minors or foreigners yet.
Yeah knowing native can carry a long way. Just watch Borat
With respect to the sauna issue … foreigners are only allowed in the sauna if their ‘thingy’ is not too large.
Just like at the amusement parks, where you have to be a certain height to go on a ride … well, there’s a little measuring device they use at saunas…
I’ve never been admitted, myself.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
@cm from Canada’s ranking of the races in Korea:
From #3 down, the ranking is correct, but #1 and #2 are not always #1 and #2. First of all, only white English teachers enjoy any hiring or pay differentials. Large corporations may hire a few furiners as globalization window dressing, but those foreigners are not paid more or treated better.
Koreans, especially males, and most especially first-born males, sure don’t buy into white superiority when they get married and procreate.
@Brendon’s observations about how Koreans and Japanese treat foreigners differently:
While visiting Tokyo, I attempted to get a room at a ryokan very close to Tokyo University. Outside the ryokan a sign in kanji indicated there were rooms available. I asked the owner for a room. He just shook his head “no” and wouldn’t even look at me. I pointed to the sign and said, “But according to this sign…” and he shook his head again before I could finish. I had heard that foreigners in Japan have been denied entry to bathhouses and inns, and this seems to have happened to me in this case.
I think that in the 80s, as Japan rose while America declined, some Japanese developed a strong sense of national superiority, looking down on all foreigners, including Westerners. Both Koreans and the Japanese look down on the US in particular for its wide economic disparities, racial tensions, drug abuse and gun violence. Unlike the Koreans, however, the Japanese are our economic equals, and some Japanese would claim economic superiority on top of cultural superiority, shaking their heads at massive layoffs and shoddy manufacturing workmanship.
“Large corporations may hire a few furiners as globalization window dressing, but those foreigners are not paid more or treated better.” Sonagi, I beg to differ
Remember too that there’s not just a racial hierarchy here, there’s class distinctions up the wazoo in Korea. In some ways Koreans treat each other as bad as they do the “3D’ workers.
You’re right, Michael. Foreigners are treated better in that they’re not as crapped on by their superiors. This is a reflection of the status of foreigners as outside the group, not any notions of Western superiority.
It’s true, they don’t know what to do with the waegook freaks
Some of this “bad Japanese” stuff reminds me of the countless times some ajossi I just met asks me how Korea compares with Japan. I just tell them “they’re about the same” to f#ck with them
Koreans just have problems dealing with anything outside the realm of their experience. Their whole culture is geared toward confirming their schooling, their prejudices, their expectations, as you can see by the utterly formulaic nature of their serial dramas, the uncritical spirit of their comedy, and so on.
When they meet another Korean, they know what to ask/look for to put him/her in the right pigeonhole. But with foreigners, they’re at a loss and that makes them uneasy. So some try to avoid contact with us, which doesn’t always mean that they dislike us.
cm: I found that run-down of the hierarchy very interesting. It does seem to be true. But wouldn’t you say that an American raised gyopo is at the very top of the list? Say you have a white Harvard man and a gyopo Harvard man, both in Korea. The gyopo would be more respected (and of course sought after by employers and women alike) not least because his presence in Korea would be viewed as natural – whereas with whites, they’re always wondering what’s wrong with them that they should be in Korea.
The gyopo would of course be all the more respected if his Korean skills were poor. Just my assumption, what do you think?
Sometimes it does mean they dislike us
But seriously, you’re right about everybody getting processed by the Korean machine to be identical drones, montclaire. Fortunately a few escape. Guess it’s the same everywhere, and yet here (and in China, Japan to a lesser extent) the conformity is really severe, to a Westerner anyway.
That’s what I said. I wrote,
(but group number 1 and group number 2 can interchange, depending on the situation)
Depending on a situation, the 2 rankings can reverse.
I don’t know why Brandon brought up Japan because Japan is Japan and Korea is Korea. But now that he did, it only proves in my mind that racism based on class distinction isn’t exclusive to Koreans (although Koreans are the worst in this regard). Racism in Japan seems almost overlooked by expats, while on the other hand, expats in Korea complain about it everyday. Like Sonagi said eloquently, Japan is an economic equal, while these poor hicks in Korea.. what are they so proud of? It’s seems to be a recurring theme which I think Koreans have caught on, and thus explains Korea’s obesession with economic development and international recognition.
Japanese are of course a lot more smooth and sophisticated than the Koreans in these (as in most) matters. No Japanese sauna owner, no matter how racist, would hang up a banner like that.
Sophisticated and smooth racists.. it certainly makes those Japanese sauna owners who say no foreigners with a smile, certainly look good. Japan even beats Korea in the how to be the best racist department.
Nope, rather than “No Foreigners,” they prefer “Japanese Only.”
In foot-high letters on the street, in Japanese and English? I doubt it somehow.
But in Japanese (or Kanji, in Chinese) clearly indicates that “No foreigners are allowed” ..
Are there places that always (ie not just during the biannual Dokdo frenzy) turn away Japanese? Koreans may not like them but they still believe they’re rich and clean.
On a related point: Dawdle a few minutes in the lobby of any Myongdong-area hotel, and you will be struck by the beauty of the prostitutes waiting on the sofa to greet the next busload of punch-permed Japanese johns.
as a white person having lived in japan for 5 years and in korea for 3, I’ve never felt outright racism in both places, not ever seen a sign barring foreigners entry, never been refused a hotel room or anythign. Even if I had, I think I could not take one or two “examples” as rules to describe a nation’s “level of racism”.
I’ve however been shouted on on MANY occasions in Korea, for no apparent reason: drunk guys literally attacked me out of a hotel when I was waiting for a cab, shouting “fucking american” (I’m french), some other guy asked me in a very bad way if “I am having fun with the korean lady”, insulting at the same time, in korean, my JAPANESE girlfriend, etc… I have dozens of stories like this…
so I’d say yes, koreans, japanese, french, there are racists everywhere (especially in france !!), but at least japanese don’t shit on my face for no reason, that’s why I have feel less resentment towards them.
and anyway, white people do have it so much better than foreigners from south east asia. commenting on our so called “racism” experiences is a bit of a “luxury problem” when compared to what south / south east asians have to endure on almost a daily basis…
anyway, korea will open up, montclaire analysis of their inexperience in dealing with foreigners is spot on. I used to think korea was changing very fast and would open up fast, however after 3 years here, I’m very surprised at the huge conservative inertia there is here, and I’m less hopeful now than originally…
This discrimination that continues to linger into the 21st century in East Asia really has to be exposed and condemned. I’ve experienced it a number of times in Korea during my three and a half years here and a couple of times in the two visits I’ve made to Japan. Each time, I’ve been denied entry to a place I’ve been well-groomed, polite and sober, and used (my limited) Korean in the Korean situations. The reason for my denial is clear, some are at least kind enough to tell me that it’s due to me being a foreigner.
Can you imagine a Korean resident in Canada, a Japanese resident in the States, a Pakistani resident in the UK, an African resident in Germany, or a Lebanese resident in Australia being denied entry into a local public swimming pool or restaurant purely because of their race or ethnicity. The chances of it happening in this day and age are remote, and if they did happen to occur, the anti-discrimination laws would rightly come down very hard on those responsible.
I know there’s plenty of left over baggage from the 20th century in this part of the world, but I still don’t know why so many people grudgingly accept such blatant discrimination over here whereas in the West such discrimination is simply (and rightly) not tolerated at all.
How about the school in Seoul that claims to not hire any foreigners. Their reasons are very discriminatory, racist, and perpetuate a lot of the bad stereotypes about foreigners.
The school website is
http://www.cyjenglish.com/
The part of the site where they have posted their reasons/rule is
http://www.cyjenglish.com/rule.jsp
Here are some of the reasons they gave.
- many foreign teachers have aids.
- many foreign teachers are gay.
- they have no sense of duty or responsibilty
- they do not care for Korean children at all and just want to have fun.
- they mostly come from bad universities and have poor qualifications.
Two years in Japan I had no problems, although I know racial problems exist there. Four years in Korea I’ve had many problems. Racism anywhere is just plain wrong, palin and simple. However, since Koreans are morally AND culturally superior to everyone else, racism simply doesn’t exist here. Westerners are the barbarians, not Koreans.
Thanks for the link, flint.
Just when I think I’ve seen the worst of hypocrisy and racism, Korea surprises me.
br, les fous sont partout.
I just came back from the mechanic. My car’s alignment was off. Some lady that came after me, when my car was already on the hoist, must have been her friend or complaining to the manager that her kid was getting cold because the manager tried to discourage me to get it done by saying it would take a long time. “How much time?” I asked in Korean, knowing all too well from experience that it would take 30 minutes tops (I’ve been working on cars since I was 9). The mechanic told her he’d be done at 2 (it was 1:45). “At least an hour”, she lied. An hour to remove the front tires, adjust 4 bolts, replace the tires, and then turn 4 more bolts, two at the front and 2 at the back of the car? I told her I still wanted it done. I didn’t feel like going across town, and I wanted the bitch to wait. The mechanic was done in 15 minutes.
But it gets better…I had asked the mechanic to check the rear brakes on my car. While he was doing this, another customer, some guy with a big imported car, started ranting about the US and Iraq the moment he saw me. I’m Canadian and last I checked, Canadians soldiers aren’t in Iraq, but Korean soldiers are. But, that’s irrelevant. What he did was just plain rude. I looked at him straight in the eyes and shook my head in disgust, walked past him, sighed, and stepped into the office to pay for the repairs. The guy followed me. I walked up to the desk to pay for the repairs. I spoke the whole time in Korean. I guess it must have occured to him that I understood everything he had said, and had made himself look like a jerk, because he said ‘annyonghasseyo’ as I left.
3rd sentence is a bit of a mess, sorry about that. ‘Her’ is the manager.
Of course a lot of the time we get passed over because we don’t wheedle and nag the way that Korean customers do. They just don’t give up! So the service provider figures, if I keep the big nose waiting he won’t make a stink, but the ajumma will. And service people everywhere make similar judgments, it’s not just Korea.
But don’t you love it in Korea when someone walks up to the counter while you and the cashier are discussing the order, and shouts his/her order at the cashier, for all the world as if you didn’t exist? I asked a cashier after one such experience and she said it happens all time. (Not just to foreigners either.) In any other country that sort of behavior would be regarded as a manifestation of mental illness.
“someone walks up to the counter while you and the cashier are discussing the order, and shouts his/her order at the cashier, for all the world as if you didn’t exist” Happens almost every week to me. In a bakery once when I was paying a woman actually pushed my money away and put a loaf of bread in front of the cashier. So I picked it up and threw it across the room. The next time I went back, all the workers were smiling and I got a free cookie
The rude bumpkin behavior is dieing out a little, although not everybody has gotten the memo yet apparently.
Michael: pushed your money away? Somehow I don’t think that would have happened had you been of the 5000 year old race. Sounds like you handled it appropriately!
Well…I did break Mom’s “don’t stoop to their level” rule, but it was very satisfying. Usually giving them the evil eye or saying “Ya! Rude!” in Korean is enough to get people to back off. I’ve gotten that “let the foreigner wait” treatment too, and just let it slide. Gotta pick your battles.
People tend to be so polite here one on one, and like rabid dogs in public. Ah, the Mysteries of the Orient
Several years ago when getting tickets for the train was much harder – I remember standing in line for quite some time when a Korean male jumped in front of me and told the ticket agent that he wanted a ticket. I wasn’t thinking clearly when I spoke to him in English and told him to quit cutting the line and go to the back and wait like everyone else. He turned around and looked and me and then yelled at me in Korean to “Learn Korean or shut up.” Fortunately reason fell into place and as I picked up his money from the counter and threw it on the floor I told him in Korean – I have learned Korean and that is why I am able to tell you this – and then questioned his parentage with words similar to bastard.
I remember that he just looked at me – and then when I asked him if he thought I needed to study some more – he wasn’t able to answer because he had to scramble for his money – others were starting to move on it (Korean honesty – touchy subject – just ask Financial Times – I think they are the ones being sued for libel for making a comment about Korean honesty).
I remember that afterwards, everytime I went in there to buy my tickets – the counter people would point me out and retell the story for their friends.
As to the English school – sad to think that that school is in my neighborhood – oh well……
michael, that’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.
I wish I had the temerity to do that.
PS. What’s with you being from France? Is there something funky with your IP address, or you’re just paranoid and access this site through a proxy?
I’m not paranoid man, I just don’t want that ajumma from the bakery to track me down
OK, it’s a proxy, and I’m paranoid
After flying 15 hours to Prague I got off the Korean Air flight and went to change money. (Fifteen hours on Korean Air is hard enough!) Some ajummas forced their way in ahead of me in line, so I loudly declaimed in Korean “10,000 miles from Seoul and still here there are Koreans with this bullshit!” They got manners pretty quick after that.
Still, I have to tip my hat to throwing the loaf of bread. Or tossing some dude’s money on the floor. Those are classics.
re Robert’s story, I had three similar experiences about 15 years ago. One involved my tossing across the room the money that a woman slammed on the counter as she hip-checked her way into line, and silencing the bitch’s complaints with a Korean “shut the fish mouth, cunt”; (I once also did something similar in the New York subway pre-Guliani with a local “uth”, who pulled a knife, whereupon I got to use the Crocodile Dundy line before a posse of NYPD ES undercovers took out the perp and his gathering “homes”; they thought I was off-duty FDNY and let me skate.) Another involved picking a guy up by the scruff of the neck and conducting him to the back of the line, with a little whispered advice accompanied by a little arm behind the back nikkyo to stay there, while my wife finished buying the tickets. The third one I “lost” when a bent over granny wacked me between the knees with her umbrella before proceeding to squeeze through and right up to the counter. I was about to drop kick her into oblivion but my wife restrained me on account of the harpie’s age and infirmity.
i think we can now add the expat to the ever growing list of victims who need redress.
why don’t you guys start a civil rights movement?
‘the shape of the t-rex tooth is similar to the ancient form of the chinese character ‘down’. this provides further proof that dinosaurs are chinese.’ dr ping pong bong of the chinese institute of fantasy, faux- grandeur, and arrogance located in ding dong fong as told by the peoples daily.
cm , comment #69
Coffee came out my nose when I laughed at this! Now the rest of the office is wondering what I’m looking at on the monitor…
good point.
Pawi, I liked you better when you refrained from posting. Oh, and nice racist rant against the Chinese. I hope this is the one that gets you banned.
Regarding comment #76 by Flint, as ridiculous as the reasons given by the school in question for not hiring foreigners are (especially when compared to the hiring principles they state on the top part of the page), they do state at the bottom—in bold—that the reasons apply to only some foreigners. Doesn’t really make it any better, and yes, they are racist—very—but I figure I’d clarify.
It should also be noted that it appears they ripped off the Gyeonggi-do KTU—the language seems strangely familiar. I’d have to go back into the archives to confirm.
I guess they don’t get how absurd it sounds when an English hagwon writes such nonsense about native speakers of English. Racism aside, I’d keep my kids away from that place. This is one parent wouldn’t want to waste my money on a place that refers to anything but research in pedagogy and language acquistion explain its approach, methods, and curriculum.
Pawikirogi:
How are you treated in the US? Do people put up signs saying you can’t enter their business establishments? When at a convenience store do they ever try to charge you more than what the label says the cost is? Just curious. Of course, Korean people here would never do that because they are so kind, polite and friendly to all foreigners here. All the newspapers in Korea, at least the English ones, are publishing lies when they print such things. Don’t get upset Pawikirogi, Korea is heaven for all foreigners. Don’t forget, Koreans NEVER complain about life in the US or other countries where they live.
Pawi, the folks at the Pocheon sauna want you back. That’s the whole reason they hung up the banner in the first place.
Breaktrack, you need to clarify that for the most part, Koreans are nice to foreigners. The problem is the minority that ruins it for everyone, not just the foreigners. These people continue behaving the way they do because they rarely get challenged.
Public enemy number one for the expat community in Korea – the old sour bag-lady haggy ajummas and spit hacking drunk adjoshis. They have rude manners because they hate foreigners. Let’s alert the UN Human rights commissions.
Here’s one shoving, pushing, budding, spitting, furriner hating ajumma.
http://english.chosun.com/medi.....010_00.jpg
Anything is better than allowing this to happen.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4407688.stm
I’m glad East Asians are racist. Otherwise they be losing their County like what’s happening in the West. Don’t think they don’t read the news either. They think you’re bunch of idiots, and they be right.
Even as I speak America is turning into another Mexico.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=aliens
Hey now
Siestas, sombreros, tequila, and lest we forget, donkey shows.
There are worse things than turning into another Mexico.
Hmmm, I think I have some tips now for what to do the next time someone cuts in front of me in line….
Michael, I particularly your story in #82. In the same situation, I would have meekly stood there like a fool and done nothing, because I would (wrongly, apparently) have thought it’s a cultural thing, don’t want to ruffle any feathers, stand out as the foreigner, etc., yada yada yada. The fact that you went back there and received such appreciation from the staff means that they don’t like having to deal with that crap any more than the customers who get cut in front of do. (I suppose it also means that customers who are pushy like that to other customers—who may include not only non-Koreans but also Koreans alike—are also pushing the staff around the wrong way, too.) Believe it or not, your one single anecdote has just changed my whole outlook on how to approach these kinds of situations!
Yet again, Origami proudly shows that racism is often a two-way street.
Funny stories, though…
Origami gives Pawi a run for his money….
I used to love it whenever I’d be outside some place and find myself in earshot whenever a Korean started to use the “Y-Word” (Yangnom).
I’d always call the bastard on it, in Korean. Almost without an exception the collared Korean would apologize and say “Gee, I would not have said it if I knew you spoke Korean…”
A bunch of us were forced by the Korean unit to which we were assigned to go to Korean folk village for a day of mandatory fun (everybody had been there like 57 times). In protest, we quickly snapped up all of the Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck hats we could lay our hands on, and started wearing them, as they were for sale at folk village….
It took only 10 minutes to find our first ‘mark’. The typical rude ajjoshi out with his brood for a day of leisure, in plaid pants, white shoes & belt, and green polyester shirt; a *perfect* match for who we were looking for.
Sure enough, the first thing out of his mouth was “Gee, there sure are a lot of yangnom’s here today!”. And then we struck.
“Hey what’s with all the ‘yangnom’ talk mister? We’re here defending your damned country!” On cue, the other guys jumped in with their protests (we were all DLI grads).
So we called this guy out in front of his family and watched him melt. He had no recourse but to profusely apologize and take us over to where they sold makkeoli for a long (and expensive for him) lunch. His chemyeon was at stake, so we made it kind of steep for him to buy back. I think five of us went through 20 ‘dwe’ of makkeoli, and all of the p’ajeon and mook we could hold.
But as a nice parting gesture, we gave his kids the stupid hats. In any fight, it’s always the people that end up with the stupidest hats who lose.
A point for further consideration is: if some of you are bearing the brunt of this behavior, -and know some Korean, be as vocal as you can about it. You’re trying to play by San Francisco or Vancouver rules of propriety, when the Bronx ones are what the Koreans follow.
From Onefreekorea:
“Discrimination against U.S. personnel would appear to violate South Korean law. South Korea’s National Human Rights Commission Act defines the term “discriminatory act violating the right to equality,” to include –
Any act of favorably treating, excluding, differentiating, or unfavorably treating a particular person in the supply or use of goods, services, transportation, commercial facilities, land, and residential facilities;
The Act further lists the suspect classifications under Korean anti-discrimination law. These include, inter alia,
gender, religion, disability, age, social status, region of birth (including place of birth, domicile of origin, one’s legal domicile, and major residential district where a minor lives until he/she becomes an adult), national origin, ethnic origin, appearance . . . , race, [or] skin color . . . .
Thus, the existence of open discrimination against U.S. personnel would appear to result from an inadequacy of enforcement, in addition to a fundamentally deep-rooted problem of Korean society itself. The problem of enforcement is also partly a result of how Korea enforces the Act, through complaints to its National Human Rights Commission. ”
http://humanrights.go.kr/eng/i.....info02.htm
So, it appears that the Human Rights Commission has the power to do more than ‘persuade’ Korean businesses not to discriminate against foreigners.
Nevertheless, I still believe that the South Korean constitution needs to be amended so that it guarantees equal protection to everyone in South Korea, not just its citizens.
http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/ks00000_.html
Note that the rights guaranteed by the Korean constitution are apparently reserved for ‘citizens’ (an attempt to ensure that the National Security Law isn’t unconstitutional?)
I believe I read somewhere that some lawmakers have argued that the word ‘citizen’ can be defined as being inclusive to residents when it comes to the articles that cover human rights, but that isn’t enough. It needs to be expressed explicitely in the constitution, as it is in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom. In this document, basic human rights are guaranteed for ‘everyone’ or ‘any person’ and the right to vote for ‘citizens’.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html
“Equal Rights” for its citizens??
Come on, South Korea has no equal rights for its citizens. That is if you are the wrong gender, has disability, are old aged, have lower social status, born in the wrong region, or live in a wrong domicile of origin, you are more then likely to be discriminated against.
I dare say, if I’m deaf, dumb, or crippled, I probably won’t even get hired. If I’m an orphan, you can forget about getting married to someone who’s from a ‘decent’ family. In that regard, foreigners are better off.
Really man, discrimination in Korea is rampant, and it’s not just against any number of race.
Koreans discriminate against Koreans all the time, what makes foreigners so special that they shouldn’t be discriminated?
oops sorry, I meant to type:
“what makes foreigners so special that they wouldn’t be discriminated?”
Robert, I wonder if you would make the same clarification had an ad back in New York stated “We don’t hire negroes because they are ‘X’ and do ‘Y’”, but at the bottom stated that those reasons applied to only some negroes.
In other words, what on earth difference do you think such an unnecessary “clarification” makes?
SomeguyinKorea
Someday all us ex-pats will return to North America and these idiots will be stuck on The ROK, they know that. Glad you made him feel like the jerk that he is. All we can do is carry on with the righteous indignation and work towards retuning home with our sanity.
I like the throwing of bread too, good move. If I had done that every time my rights were snubbed in Korea I’d be in jail.
Funny thing, that was exactly what I was thinking when I saw the guards at Augusto Pinocet’s funeral recently. What was up with the half cones?
As far as the topic at hand, I have learned one thing that, no pun intended, is echoed by some of you. You get further if you shout and yell in Korea, even in English. A few years ago, and much less Korean ago, I had a simular line cutter when buying movie tickets a slight shove and a “Hey buddy, there is a line ya’know!” got me what I wanted.
For those who do not read Korean and would like to know the reasons the English language institute gave for not hiring “Native Speakers,” I have have translated them here.
As a reply to whoever wrote the list.
1. I’ve been in Korea for nearly 10 years, I’m a parent, and I’ve worked for several branches of my countries government, including the military where I had secret clearance, so please…I could teach you a think about duty and responsibility.
2. See number 1…Oh, and I went to grad school, TESOL.
3. Untrained in education? I’m qualified to create school curriculum.
4. I’d say I’m pretty trustworthy (again, secret clearance in the armed forces)…Did I mention that I attended grad school at a university that is ranked one of the top 5 in the world in the fields of TESOL and Applied Linguistics…and is higher ranked than any of the Korean universities?
5. Two of the best teachers I’ve ever had were gay. What about the Korean teachers who may be alcoholics?
6. If you want a teacher who’s at work 24/7, you’ll have to pay them more than 25000$ per year. Heck, my friend climbs telephone poles for a living and earns twice that much.
7. That’s gross.
8. You mean we don’t make the kids repeat the same sentences over and over until they have them memorized for the yearly school play, which fools the parents into thinking they’ve made progress?
9. Rare? I see them everywhere in Canada.
10. Whatever. They can call you.
Sewing, whoa, don’t toss the bread–that wasn’t something I was bragging about. 야아! 무례한! gets your point across better.
The majority of Koreans are polite, and in one-on-one encounters a lot more are gracious than I’ve experienced in other countries, so I don’t want to give the wrong impression.
If somebody’s a jackass, though, give ‘em the stink eye.
Too late, Michael. I can see it now:
Foreigner Deported For Inciting Abuse of Korean Bakery Products
Scone Wars
Why do I bother posting here?
This is not a democratic forum. This is a bastion of
“We are The World” American jizz-on-your-face asshole netizens.
“Why do I bother posting here?”
I’m sure The Marmot is grateful to you for bringing your former blog’s one reader over to the hole.
@Slim:
lol
Normally, I’d agree that my comment section could use some improving. This time, however, I’ll make an exception since it’s coming from you.
Yankabroad: Paragon of Rational Discourse
Your freedom of speech has not been curtailed by any editing or banning from the administrator. The fact that several commentators have rebutted your remarks does not make this forum less democratic. Perhaps this forum would seem more democratic to you.
How do some Southeast Asians wear their undergarments into the sauna if they’re not allowed into the sauna?
You forgot to mention your modesty.
(Sorry, I could not resist.)
Dram_man, I was being modest. I could have mentioned that being Canadians, I’m hung like a moose.
being Canadian…once again, I posted before proof reading.
Black people from Africa slaved their asses off and never got shit but lynchings and Jim Crow laws for hundreds of years.
White people here in Korea never had it so good. They are treated like Gods by Korea, who, as one writer pointed out, “Is one of the last places on Earth where white poeple are worshipped simply for their skin color.”
So, unless there are Indians or Bangladeshis or Pakistanis or Philippinos posting here, I suggest all you whining White Folks (This is a White Bulletin Board after all, isn’t it?) quit whining, because you never had it so good.
In America, the competition would kick your ass.
And by the way, learn a modicum of Korean and maybe a few doors will open up.
Wait a sec, yankabroad. On the one hand, you say we’re being worshipped for our white skins. On the other hand, you tacitly admit that doors are closed to us, and that we need to learn Korean if we want a few to open.
I’m confused.
[Incidentally, we whites were not the first race to start slavery. We were just the first to stop it - over the protesting howls of black delegations from slave-exporting West African nations.]
Herod,
Now don’t confuse the truth with the facts!
Harod,
you need to go read some book about slavery before you even think about saying stuff about it.
Everyone else,
I am trying to go to a korean sauna in new york called inspa world (http://www.nyspacastle.com/eng/main/
!
main.php)I really want to go but i don’t want any negative energy around me on my birthday. so people please be honest with me. Should i? why/why not? oh and by the way am black
the previous message was actually meant for yankabroad not harold. My bad!!!
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