Thanx. I thought Soga was also a clan name, but I guess they managed to keep it as family name?

What about former samurai class families? Do any of them talk about their samurai status? Or did that disappear too long ago to have any modern relevance? It must be pretty cool if you are a Japanese kid and you go into your dad’s closet to find a 200 year old sword with your family name on it. If you are a Korean kid and went into dad’s closet, you might find, I guess a brush or mookhyang or something. Not as cool, and probably doesn’t worth too much to auction off either.

Can’t really say, because I haven’t been acquianted with such people. I’m sure having famous ancestors would get some “Wows” from friends, but other than that, you probably have to be a member of the main family still operating for the family/clan to receive a more genuine reaction of admiration.

Also, the Fujiwara clan no longer uses Fujiwara as their last name, since the last names registered during the Meiji reformations were family names and not clan names. People who go by the Fujiwara name presently simply lived on various pieces of land owned by the Fujiwaras. The Fujiwara now uses the family names Konoe, Takatsukasa, Kujo, Nijo, and Ichijo. They still are the closest families to the imperial clan (they often provide the wives for the crown prince - although this tradition has been ignored by the Showa emperor, the present emperor, and the crown prince), so I guess they still have high social standings. I’m sure they are proud of their heritage, but I don’t know whether they go about perpetually reminding people of their family history. I have the impression that (former) aristocrats consider such outward show of pride to be unrefined.

My apologies

Fluffylittleducky -

Wow - I know what the person meant when he/she said they could not believe they typed that. You are indeed correct - the map needs to be updated on the RAS webpage and that should be taken care of very soon.

As to Sam’s lecture - should be very good - I have read a lot of the material - not just his but some of the other documents - but Sam is using some material that for the most part has been overlooked. Great stuff.

For Mr. Mason’s lecture - I definitely will attend - I need to get some more information on the ghost and spirits - I am still trying to gather “ghost stories” (preferably those that are alleged to be true or that someone has actually experienced). A couple of years ago there were some great posts to the article on Marmot’s Hole concerning ghosts - any of you new readers have any ghost stories?

Again - for the benefit of all -
My apologies…said with a smile

Thanx! I learn something new everyday. I wonder though, if people in Japan with “noble” last names like Takeda or Fujiwara make a big deal out of it like the very annoying Kimhae Kims.

Hans Castorp,

Thank you, I was trying to troll you in, and I succeeded! People usually ignore my post, so I am grateful that you took the time to actually read it.

First for my “Musuhm” comment, “musuhm” of course means “servant.” For practical purposes indentured servants in Korea are like slaves. But let’s first get into semantics.

In the West, when we talk about slaves, we usually don’t mean slaves in classical greek states or what not. We are talking about black slaves during 19th century America & South America. When we talk about slaves in Korea, we are talking about slaves in 19th century Josun Korea. Semantics is important.

Slavery in Josun Korea IS different from slavery in pre Civil War United States. Just as slavery IS different during earliest days of American colonies in the 1600’s as opposed to plantation economy 19th century slavery.

Agreed? Would you go so far as to define the term “slavery” in the sense I gave you?

If by slavery you meant slavery in the 16th century American setting compared to Josun Korea slavery of 19th century, I would agree that Robert Neff is an unabashed Korean apologist.

My “musuhm” comment was to point out to you exactly that you need to know the details of what we are talking about before you jump the gun. If you don’t know “musuhm” that tells me you didn’t bother to brush up on the subject as it pertains in Korea, because you automatically assume that things are same everywhere in the world.

I want to point out that “serfs” in midieval europe would fall into our modern definition of the word slaves. In fact, using modern definition of slaves, the majority of anyone living under feudalism would be slaves–as would be residents of modern DPRK. But couldn’t we stretch the definition to include say the poor residents of Sudan who live under warlords? Whose personal freedom is limited by what someone with an AK-47 says?

Now tell me honestly. Do you think to be greek slave during the height of Rome is equally distubing as being an african sugar slave in Haiti during 18th century. Wouldn’t you agree that to be a Greek slave would be glorious compared to being a Haitian slave?

Also, for me being Captain Obvious, I was pointing out to a different posters assertion that 5% of Koreans were Yangban. I was pointing out that by the end of the Josun dynasty that could not be a mathmatical reality. And it seems the lecturer point out that by the end of the Josun dynasty, the official record of Yangban ratio inflated to 70%. So it seems, Hanscorp, this knowledge isn’t so obvious to everyone. I am glad to know that this is obvious to you. But historical, anthropological knowledge isn’t “obvious” but must be studied. And I think as far as the issue of Korean slavery is concerned, you should consider doing that before you assume everything is the same and means the same.

Look, if you say, “Koreans are racists”, I won’t disagree with you because I’ve seem many Korean racists in my time. But if you insist that slaves are slaves and the meaning is the same under any circumstances, then I would have to agree that ad hominem is not a convincing argument to a rational and objective crowd. But it doesn’t necessarily mean the person impugned doesn’t deserve it.

I would like to end my argument by pointing out, what difference is there between a Korean “slave” and a Korean peasant farmer in Josun Korea? The Korean peasant farmer has no legal protection against the landed class anyway and is more than likely face starvation in times of famine as oppose to the Korean “slave” who like the simple peasants, have no legal protection but at least won’t starve to death. This tells me that you didnt’ really think about the Korean condition in Josun Korea.

Your first link failed as there was a superfluous http// in the URL.

Thanks for reposting again because it’s a good article, though the last sentence is a bit of a cliché. Am interested to see what you dig up about about Ok Pun-ie’s life after 1910. Hopefully it doesn’t involve her selling her hair to buy a pocket watch chain for her husband.

for some reason the link didn’t work….

here is trying again

and if doesn’t work - you will just have to cut and paste the below address

http://search.hankooki.com/tim.....p;media=kt

“As for Mr. Neff, I am sure it has occured to him that he will likely be mistaken with the well known author and East Asia correspondent Robert Neff. Rather than dragging the name of the well known Robert Neff through the mud with your ignorant comments, why don’t you change your name, or at least make it clear that you are not the well known Robert Neff.”

Shakuhachi - I read your comments with some pleasure and confusion. I am not sure how I should answer. I am more than familiar with Robert Neff in Japan’s name, but to the best of my knowledge he only writes about Japan and from the last that I heard - can’t verify it - he recently passed away - God rest his soul.

I should change my name? Obviously you are rather new to the group otherwise you would have known that several years ago I kept pushing and urging that everyone use their real names so we could get rid of the “trolls” who merely post to incite people’s anger. To answer shortly - no, I will not change my name.

My apologistic views on Korea…..can’t claim I have been accused of that much - in fact when I wrote my column I generally received negative comments for painting Korea in a negative way. I call it the way I see it - regardless of whether it is pro-Korean or anti-Korean. I believe in history - not trying to satisfy someone else’s agenda.

Because it is the Christmas season - I thought that (Marmot please forgive me for linking my own article to your site)I would give you an example of my apologistic views and slavery all in one article. I thought about posting a history of slavery at the end of the Choson period - (my particular area of expertise is how Korea was viewed by the early Westerners)- but my book goes to the designer at the end of the month and I just haven’t had that much time.

Do me a favor shakuhachi and buy the book - help make me as famous as the Robert Neff in Japan

I’m leaving tomorrow morning for one of these, in fact — the Pacific Asia Conference on Korean Studies (PACKS 2006) in New Delhi, India! Going to read one of my papers there, and will try to be less boring than average… So if you notice i’m not posting much on the Hole for two weeks, that’s why.

Yes, as Sperwer kindly noted, i myself am slated to be the RAS’s speaker on January 9th, same time and location, will talk about “the Sacred Aspects and Assets of Jiri-san” — a follow-up to my similar rant about Taebaek-san this past June — that went pretty well so they asked me to step up again. This may become a series, as there is no shortage of holy mountains in Korea. I promise to sufficiently entertain the masses…

The only interesting thing she had to say in this connection was that when the yangban class first coalesced in the 16th century (a dubious proposition in itself), they constituted about 10% of the population, but by the end of the Joseon dynasty nearly 70% of the population were registered as yangban.

That is interesting. Confucian law required that both parents had to be yangban for a person to claim yangban status; children of a yangban father and lower class mother did not qualify. If 70% were registered, there must have been enormous amount of fraud.

Two lectures were announced for January that sound more promising. Early in the month, Sanshinseon (David Mason) will be talking about Jirisan as a sacred mountain; and later in the month, Samuel Hawley, who recently wrote an excellent account of the Imjin War, will speak about his current project, which (I think) is both a transcription and an account of the notebooks and the work of perhaps the first diplomatic military attache from the US to Korea in the 1880s, whose work Bartholemew characterized as the fullest and best portrait of old Korea in the 19th century.