Oh, no, the prime minister has issued another half-hearted, insincere apology lacking in any real reflection over his nation’s historical misdeeds.
Oh, wait, it’s the British.
Abiola Lapite puts it best:
Neither the British nor the Americans are capable of apologizing for something so obviously wrong and so well established, and yet it’s the Japanese, who have actually apologized some 21 times, who are routinely accused of “revisionism”, “amnesia” and “insincerity.” Pardon me if I refuse to join in such egregious hypocrisy: I’ll start getting worked up over the supposedly ominous implications of Japan’s alleged lack of remorse just as soon as the Western press and intelligentsia start flaggelating their own elites for their own historical misdeeds.
Everyone wants the Japanese to apologize as sincerely as the Germans, but as I pointed out in May, they already are.
BTW, I’m not defending “two-faced” Japanese insincerity as far as apologizing for its past goes. But truthfully, is there another former empire out there that has apologized better?
{ 104 comments… read them below or add one }
Didn’t Clinton apologize for Vietnam, slavery, killing native Americans, sticking a cigar in….
Anyway, isn’t all this apology BS worthless if the U.S. gov’t acts like doesn’t have to answer to anybody and rejects the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court? Just sayin.’
It’s just political expedience to demand/make apologies, as I think you’re saying, so at this point I don’t see why the U.S., Japan, Germany, et al need to apologize for anything outside of dealing with documented claims for personal compensation. The blanket apologies are useless.
Talk about your apples and oranges. And pineapples and bananas and kiwi. You and Lapite are really mixing your issues. Slavery was a generally accepted practice around the world until modern times. War has generally been considered “bad” by most people, at most times.
Anyhow, the issues of Japan and its colonial era the Pacific War are in the process of moving from memory into history. Just as World War I has already for most people in the West. After all, who gets upset by someone arguing France was not at fault for the Napoleonic Wars? Japan’s past will be academic within a generation.
I’m sorry, Haisan, but war and imperialism was a fairly accepted way of doing things up until modern times, too. In fact, it was accepted far longer than slavery—the British abolished the slave trade in 1803 and slavery itself in 1833. The Berlin Conference—which divided Africa among the European colonial powers—wasn’t held until 1885. The Sykes-Picot Agreement—dividing the Middle East between Britain and France—wasn’t made until 1916, six years after Japan had officially annexed Korea.
Well, here’s one thing that immediately springs to mind, a difference between Britain and Japan. Britain stopped the slave trade of it’s own accord, and fairly soon after they stopped doing it themselves, they actively tried to use their naval superiority to prevent other countries from doing it. When the American slave trade continued, all the ships that were trying to catch the slavers were British. Hardly the same as a Japan that only stopped exploiting folks (let’s talk about forced labor and sexual slavery as an approximate equivalent to slavery) after having the snot beaten out of it by the Allies, and has never attempted to prevent it or even speak out against it when it occurs elsewhere.
Listen, Mr. Marmot, I know from experience that living in Korea for a long time makes you look at Japan as ‘the Korea that could have been’ and it’s tempting to dismiss any argument against Japan only because it’s sometimes the Koreans who are making it. But people have a real point here. Japan didn’t ‘stop’ exploiting people, they ‘were stopped.’ And for anyone to draw parallels between the way the USA, for example, deals with its past and the way Japan does is absolutely ridiculous. Britain, you may have a point, France, you definitely do. But USA and Germany vs. Japan? No contest, none.
In the West, an admission of guilt and apology is the first step in a redemptive process, whereupon the next stage is acceptance of the apology and forgiveness by the victim.
In East Asia (Korea/Japan/China) an admission of guilt and apology is a justification for punishment, and the next stage is punishment. The one apologizing has by his apology lowered himself below your boot, so contempt and abuse are the next order of business. Knowing its neighbors too well, Japan is becoming well aware that further apologies will be met only with further contempt from Korean and China, so what’s the point?
Secondly, for the Germans to say “Our grandfathers were criminals” is tough, but not so bad in the West because we feel ancestors are dead, gone and no particular credit or discredit to us. In East Asia though, belief in bloodlines and ‘family’ (here family would be defined as the nation) influence prevails – think about the ceremony of offering to ancestors, or Koreans who move a parent or grandparent’s grave after a string of bad luck, convinced that ancestors are still out there, hovering about and influencing things.
To admit your grandfather is a criminal is to admit you are a criminal and your children and so forth will be criminals. Really. In the west we are so steeped in personal responsiblity that it is hard for us to admit and understand this deeply held alternative view could exist, but it does.
This is why Japan has paid reparations in a round-about way, in aid for China and the 65 normalization treaty payment for Korea. They have tried to apologize the European way, but the Chinese and Koreans are having none of it – they don’t even know what they want themselves, except that they want to see Japan below their boot and all Japan’s assets transfered to them.
Whew, windy! Well, that is my slighty-disorganized take on East Asian sociology today….
Good points, Hugh. The past never seems to fade away in NE Asia.
I don’t know who is claiming that the USA hasn’t ‘apologized’ for slavery, but I can’t believe anyone who’s been to America can claim that. How about Affirmative Action? How about the fact the a public history education in America (in the South, at least) is essentially a 12 year apology for slavery and racism in America. Do you honestly think that America ‘doesn’t deal’ with its past, and, if so, may I ask: when was the last time you were there?
Some people point out that the people of Taiwan view Japan much more positively than both Koreas or mainland China, while mainland China and both Koreas view Japan very negatively overall. I just learned by conversing with a mainland Chinese that Chiang Kai Shek is hated for many reasons, but one reason is that…
He chose to fight the mainland Chinese communist rather than the Japanese on many occasions.
Add that to the fact that Chiang was trained in Japan and he had formal ties and equipment and technology and engineers going back and forth between them for a brief time, and it seems like Chiang Kai Shek’s govt was much more formally active with the Axis powers than Korea was. At least Korea lacked the formal status to be courted by Nazi Germany. Chiang had the status as the “ruler” of China. Before Japan took over the good parts of it.
I don’t see why it’s very difficult to see why Taiwan thinks better of Japan.
But, Japan did apologize a lot.
But, you must ask why Korea and mainland China don’t think much of it.
You must also ask why Europeans don’t blame Germany as much for all their problems.
formal ties, equipment, and technology, and engineers going back and forth with the Third Reich.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Wei-Kuo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-German_cooperation_%281911-1941%29
A clarification.
I do accept the idea that Korea would have done the same if it was courted. In fact, President Park Chung Hee was a infamous Japanese military officer who was described as being more Japanese than a real Japanese.
I did not mention imperialism, only war. And I did not say war was not accepted, only that it was considered bad. Which I believe is accurate. Colontos’ first point, in comment No. 4, is good, too.
But my bigger point was about the passage from memory into history. Once the move is made, debate becomes more academic than personal, even if the effects linger on to the present.
I think Korea and China need their own versions of HOGAN’S HEROES. (At least Korea has PONG).
now, especially since the witch hunt for pro-Japanese family histories during the Uri era,
there are South Koreans who are coming out on internet message boards saying things like,
1. What was so bad about Japanese occupation? It was n’t that bad.
2. Korea should seek to ally itself with the Japanese and counter the emerging giant mainland China, by technological superiority.
3. Some go on to say, Korea should form something like a E.U. with Japan.
4. Many of these types say, Korea has more in common with Japan than China, and more in common with Japan than pretty much any country in the world.
So, I only conclude that life wasn’t that bad for some Koreans under Japanese rule, and in fact it may have been very good. Which is very documentable for elites. Taiwan’s good feelings towards Japan is not a reflection of how good natured Japan was during the Japanese Empire era. It has more to do with life being good under collaboration.
In fact, I am quite confident that most South Koreans are shocked to know that Chiang Kai Shek cooperated with the Third Reich.
Ask anyone. They won’t know a thing.
Simply because, it was better to paint Chiang as the ally of the Korean exile govt in Shang Hai, and an enemy of the Japanese Empire, not in any way a collaborator for any period of time with either Japan or Germany, however brief it was.
What is interesting is that, most mainland Chinese people know this very well.
Which fascinates me, too.
And it further points out the fact that history is taught quite selectively, wherever you go.
Conlonus,
Japan forced the end of the Korean slavery system in the 1890s, and I think you would have a hard time proving that the Japanese treated Koreans worse than Americans treated blacks up until the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s and ’70s.
Time in Korea has taught me to start looking at the evidence myself, instead of just blindly accepting what Koreans tell me.
After Korea was liberated, it was the policy of the new Korean government to brainwash Koreans into hating the Japanese, and they were very successful at it. You need to take what you hear about Japan in Korea with a big grain of salt.
By the way, I am curious to know just how much experience you have living in Korea?
Correction: My above post was meant to be addressed to “Colontos.”
I think one could go a step further and say that the Japanese treated Koreans, including the 1910-1919 military rule, better than Koreans treated Korean nobi throughout the Choseon dynasty. The most salient difference is that the strict rule that the nobi would have been used to and would have accepted without complaint was now directed towards other elements of society, more evenly so. So, middle and upper class Koreans ultimately didn’t like being treated by the Japanese like they had treated their own people for centuries…imagine that. Whether they ever figure out that lesson of history will have great bearing on how South Koreans may one day treat liberated North Koreans; I don’t have much optimism in that regard but its never too late to get the history straight.
Haisan. My understanding of history suggests that the great majority of countries did not consider war itself as “bad’. It was “bad” if you lost one. Interesting point in the referenced article on “all the nations” involved in salvery offering an apology”. Perhaps we can expect a plethora of apologies from the majority of African states south of the Sahara for having sold the losers in their wars to the likes of the Arabs, Europeans, Americans, etc. Didn’t some country in West Africa (Mauritania?) recently promise to abolish slavery, and then back off? But, I’m sure some Noah Chomsky out there can explain to us that only European or White slavery was bad, and that other forms were more gentle.
“Noam” Chomsky. but your point is quite correct. Slavery continues in its traditional chattel forms in much of northwest Africa. And its more modern forms (debt bondage, human trafficking, etc) all over the world, more or less. Our efforts should be focused on eradicating it in the present and future, not on pointless apologizing for what our grandfather’s grandfather’s grandfathers might have done.
And i second what Hugh said above, great post.
colontos,
In “Korea and Her Neighbors (1897)” by Isabella Bird, she writes of the reformations Japan forced on Korea. “Agreements with China cancelled. Distinctions between Patrician and Plebeian abolished. Slavery abolisehd. Remarriages of widows permitted. Bribery to be strictly forbidden. No one to be arrested without warrant for civil offences. Couriers, mountebanks, and butchers no longer to be under degradation. Local Councils of Police to be established. New coinage issued. Organization of Police Force. No one to be punished without trial. Irregular taxation by Provincial Government forbidden. Extortion of money by officials forbidden. Family of a criminal not to be involved in his doom. Great modifications as to torture, Superfluous Paraphernalia abolished. Schools of Instruciton in Vaccination. Hair-croppping Proclamation. Solar calendar adopted. “Drilled Troops (kun-ren-tai)abolished. Legal punishement defined. Slaughter Houses licensed. Committee of Leagal Revision appointed. Telegraph Regulations. Postal Regulations. Railway placed under Bureau of Communications. These ordinances are a selection from among several hundred promulgated since July, 1894.”
“Much had been done in the way of prison reform. [snip] Torture is at least nominally abolished, and brutal exposures of severed heads and headless trunks, and beating and slicing to death, were made an end to during the ascendancy of Japan. After an afternoon in the prison of Seoul, I could hardly believe it possible that only two years before I had seen several human heads hanging from tripod stands and lying on the ground in the throng of a business street, and headless bodies lying in their blood on the road outside the East Gate.”
I second Mr. Chips. The average Korean was treated much better by the Japanese than during the Chosun era. Ms. Bird also repeatedly writes that yanbans were vampires and Korea only consists of the Robber and the Robbed. I am sure that the people robbed might acuatlly have preferred Japanese occupation, though I am also sure that they would have preferred better conditions under their own people’s rule. however, just as Nissan needed a foreign CEO to turn it around, sometimes, I think reforms had to be made from the outside when resistance in the inside is too strong. Many Koreans, especially the young ones, wanted their coutnry to modernize, but the people in power with their seasoned wiles in court were just too much for them. If nothing forced by the outside can be good, then the world should just leave the North Korean people in their miserable states until somebody up north can get up the courage to execute a coup and transform the own country. I’m sure some of the reformations Ms. Bird listed would be carried out in NK once it is under UN charge.
The means to victory in wars of the past are far too unpleasant to consider nowadays, which is precisely why wars will no longer be won.
Haisan,
I would strenuously disagree with you that wars were considered “bad” by “most people, at most times.”
True, these things are hard, if not impossible, to quantify with mathematical precision. But as a matter of intellectual history, the “Homeric” ethic that glorified military glory as the summit of human achievement was dominant and not broken until the advent of capitalism and the emergence of the bougeois ethic (Albert O. Hirschmann’s The Passions and the Interests is the classic on the topic, though I do not agree with many of his tangential arguments)–though challenged powerfully by Christianity before capitalism. Nor would I say, in spite of the chorus of “West is evil” multiculturalists, the warlike ethic was dominant only the West. Consider the Persians, the Mongols, and even, in the context of Korea, the Koguryoans.
Of course, you may modify your position and say that by “people,” you meant commoners, the scum of the earth. But the commoners, in pre-democratic eros, had no voice. That is, they did not set the ethos or the horizon that animated their own societies.
I meant “pre-democratic eras,” not “eros.”
And yes, I consider the slip quite possibly “Freudian.”
Re: gbevers and TwoCents
First, I lived in Korea for about two years, and have been married to a Korean for about 4.
Second, the points you two made don’t matter, at all. I am not interested in arguing about whether or not Koreans benefitted from colonial rule, or whether Japanese forced labor was more or less humane than slavery/segregation in America. That’s not what we’re talking about.
We are talking about how country’s deal with their past. My statement was that the USA has dealt with its past of slavery and segregation in a much more comprehensive manner than the Japanese. If you would like to respond to what I actually said instead of knocking down your adorable little straw men, feel free.
The one point that was almost on-topic was that the Japanese ‘abolished’ the Korean slavery system. This is an obfuscation. To claim that they did so out of any conviction that it was wrong is ridiculous. The Korean system put some Koreans on a level above others. The Japanese preferred to put all Koreans down except the collaborators. The Japanese took away one system of slavery in order to institute their own, that’s all. It doesn’t matter which was ‘nicer.’
Even so, you’re still comparing apples and oranges here. While the US may arguably have done a lot to make up for its history of slavery and segregation (I say arguably because I’m not entirely convinced that it has), it’s done far less to acknowledge and make up for its own colonial and imperialist history. After all, who in American public schools gets to know much about the real extent of American involvement in places like Hawaii in the 19th century (which bears some striking similarities to the occupation of Korea)? What about ‘manifest destiny’ and the conquest of the American West?
Japan abolished slavery in Korea. I pretty much know that this is untrue.
Yangban families that I personally know of who were living in Korea during the occupation still kept their servants. And treated them pretty much the same way. Yangban children were addressed by nobi men in their 40s, 50′s as the equivalent of masters in English terms, and Yangban children addressed these men as if they were younger than themselves.
Colontos of comment #22 has it right on.
to pin your personal life crusade on proving that a country lies about its history is stupid in my opinion. Interesting, but stupid.
Why?
Because pretty much every country is guilty of doing it.
Winners of wars have traditionally dictated what is written in history books. There is that inherent bias right there.
Every nation will present its own version of key events in history. There is another bias right there.
Even if there are no lies, a selective history education will accomplish the same.
Where did western medicine and surgery orignate from? The white people of Europe?
A middle eastern person will claim that they had street lights while the white men of Europe were painting each other blue, and the middle east was practicing surgery before the whites ever thought of it.
I wouldn’t call this person from the middle east I talked with a “lier”. He is responding the best way that he was educated in. And it could be the truth.
Calling educated people who are proud of their national histories “liers” is offensive and insensitive.
street lights fed by oil, I might add.
I can tell you that manifest destiny and the conquest of the West are dealt with extensively, and in a way that portrays the white settlers in a very negative light. I remember learning about the conquest of the Native Americans in public elementary school (this was late 80′s-early 90′s). The colonial period of Hawaii and other places recieves less attention, you’re right. But what American textbooks and curricula do not do is this: imply (or outright state) that these colonial adventures were positive experiences for the indiginous populations, or attempt to claim that historical events did not happen.
I’m not siding with the Koreans on this, believe me. Koreans textbooks are just as bad as Japanese ones, but the Koreans get off easier since they were typically the ‘victims,’ in the last 150 years at least. I’m siding with people who think countries ought to be honest about their history. The USA, on the whole, is. I really challenge anyone to defy that statement. Curricula may not place as much emphasis on colonialism as we Asia-watchers think they should, but they don’t deny anything either.
“…the Japanese ‘abolished’ the Korean slavery system. This is an obfuscation. To claim that they did so out of any conviction that it was wrong is ridiculous. ” Though no one said “abolished slavery” – gbevers said “forced an end to the slavery system” which is true. Nevertheless, claiming that as an obfuscation is one in itself. Even Britain in the wake of its utilitarian rise and the quaker revivals ultimately only effected a change in attitude towards slavery because it began to make financial sense.
Someone said that it doesn’t matter which was “nicer.” I strongly disagree with this sentiment and say that it most certainly does matter when designing a curriculum in which you teach your students from grammar school on that Korea, pre-1910, was a utopian society full of bliss and loving, beneficent rulers, and Japan came in screwed it all up, monsters that they were. Saying that every country has lies regarding its history is not enough and even furthers the problem. It matters when there is a complete lack of introspection. It matters when there is no room for debate, to question in the schools what you are taught. It’s not offensive or insensitive to demand that there be room for letting the truth out, that someone isn’t castigated for not believing the “lies” that “liArs” of history tell. And the truth is that the colonial period and Japanese actions were not as Korean schools teach their students; that needs to change and does affect the situation of Koreans today. And, I wouldn’t call anyone educated who gets offended by debate…
‘the japanese brought modernization to korea and thus, the japanese brutalizing koreans was ok. why, they brought medicine, got rid of slavery, blah, blah, blah…’ mr chips and two cents
yes, you forgot to mention destruction of korean culture, forcing koreans to take japanese names, assassinting the queen, forcing their language onto koreans, plundering korea’s cultutral heritage, making korean palaces into zoos, and setting up korea’s sex industry.
lastly, korea was already modernizing when your people came crashing through, misters chips and two cents. see ‘popular gusts of feeling’ for a well researched look into korea’s modernizatin efforts prior to the japanese. oh, btw, as an added bonus, the guy at popular gusts once again aims his sights on how the bigot(matt/shakuhachi) at occidentaloon.org plays fast and loose with the truth when it suits his purpose. a very good read.
“the japanese brought modernization to korea” – a LIE – no one on this post ever broached that issue.
“brutalizing Koreans was ok” – another LIE – no one on this post insinuated that. Just because the Japanese did some very bad things doesn’t mean the entire history of Koreans brutalizing other Koreans can be ignored, which was the only manner in which that issue was brought up.
“the destruction of Korean culture” – a deceitful statement – Koreans today through their own “historiographical” imaginations have are destroying their own culture. I doubt any historians in Korea understand Silla, Koryo, or even Choseon culture near the degree that historians in other countries view their own past precisely because of the reason I said: there is a lack of introspection and a lack of room for debate.
“forcing Koreans to take Japanese names” – another LIE – part of that whole integrity in historiography thing.
“assassinating the queen” – and? I suppose the Koreans who assassinated other Koreans can be ignored then.
“forcing their language on the Koreans” – another LIE
“plundering Korea’s cultural heritage” – whiskey tango – I don’t think that actually means anything; try a different phrase, one that works in English.
“making Korean palaces into zoos” – foxtrot – you may want to take a trip over to a zoo in Korea now if you’re actually concerned about zoos.
“setting up Korea’s sex industry” – OMFG – that’s the LIE that takes the cake. That’s one industry that was already fully modernized in that puritanical society of Choseon. There correction in historiography always starts with YOU!! That goes for everyone…
as for “came crashing through,” just wait…you’ve got some more crashing through to witness.
Colontos,
I do not consider “two years” in Korea to be a “long time,” so I do not think you can use your experience in Korea as a basis for claiming that people are “dismissing any argument against Japan” only because it is “the Koreans who are making it.”
You make unsupported claims against Japan and then call it a “straw-man” argument when people challenge you on those claims? You even presume to know the motivations for Japan’s forcing the end of Korea’s slave system, again without any evidence to support your presumption.
As for Koreans being “exploited” during the colonial period, I wish someone would do a comparative study between how Koreans were treated by the Japanese from 1910 to 1945 and how blacks were treated by American whites during the same period. I think it would be quite interesting.
Korea’s first president, Syngman Rhee, was extremely anti-Japanese and made it a national policy to teach Koreans to hate the Japanese along with the Communists. Hanging on the walls of Korean classrooms of that time was the motto, “반일, 반공,” which means “Anti-Japanese, Anti-Communists.”
My question is this: If Koreans were so exploited during Korea’s colonial period, why did Syngman Rhee feel that he had to teach Koreans to hate the Japanese?
Wjk,
The Japanese did abolish slavery in Korea, but that does not mean that there were not some families who illegally kept their slaves or whose slaves stayed with them because they had no other place to go. Even my Korean mother-in-law once told me that she remembered playing with her family’s slave when she was a little girl, and my mother-in-law is only somewhere between eight-five and ninety years old.
Eliminating slave mentality from a society is not something that happens overnight. In fact, it took the United States about 100 years to do it, and some Americans may even say that the job is still unfinished.
By the way, which of Colontos’ comments is “right on”?
‘LIES, PAWI! ALL LIES!’ mr chips
yeah, simply saying something is a lie doesn’t make it a lie, my boy. all the things i wrote are true.
‘nobody on this post broached the subject of japan modernizing korea.’ chips
that’s not true. you did in post 18.
i forgot:
‘the biggest lie of them all! korea already had mass sex industry!’ mr chips
well, dr lankov says the japanese introduced mass sex industry to korea. you argue with him, ok?
Ah, Gerry. I thought I might get you talking.
It doesn’t matter to me what you consider a long time. Don’t remember asking you, and besides, has nothing to do with my argument. It’s what we like to call an ‘ad hominem,’ and a poorly attempted one at that.
Where did I make ‘unsupported claims’ against Japan? And where did you ‘challenge those claims?’ You didn’t challenge anything I said. You merely busied yourself with justifying the Japanese occupation to suit your own Japanophilia. Like I said, the severity of the Japanese occupation is not the issue on this thread. The issue is dealing with that past. Now, maybe you want to claim that Japan doesn’t need to deal with it, since it was 100% positive. You can claim that, but you won’t get much respect from me or anyone else.
Well, Gerry, why don’t you educate us as to the motivations? Surely you don’t claim that it was altruism? The Japanese knocked down the Korean system in order to institute their own. If you want to claim they abolished Korean slavery because of altruism or because it was ‘the right thing to do,’ then I believe the burden of proof rests squarely on your Japanophilic shoulders.
I don’t need to respond to your other points because, as usual, they are entirely off topic. Was the Japanese occupation more or less harsh than segregation in America? Doesn’t matter. Do Koreans teach hatred of the Japanese to their children? Yeah, they do, but so what? The issue is how Japan deals with its past in comparison to the West. TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE, GERRY.
“LIES, PAWI! ALL LIES” since you never quote anyone accurately I’ll say that and you can grandfather it back to get at least one right. That’s right, everything you said is a lie and stems from the lack of integrity in Korean historiography. Perverting the truth for sensationalism will not accomplish any good, not that you’re interested in good. I don’t expect pathological liars to care much for the truth nor recognize it when it repeatedly bitchslaps them.
But I guess it’s not enough that you lie, you refuse to read also. Post 18 was not written by me and my original statement that the issue of “Japan modernizing Korea” wasn’t broached in this post is correct. If you cared enough about the truth you might properly read what was written. Playing with semantics won’t make anything you said true.
And what a way to bow out with no integrity -attribute something to a third party (completely out of context to boot) and expect that a debate be carried out there.
Meanwhile, my original point… was that if the Korean educational system can’t deal with their past concerning slavery and are only fixated on “what those dirty Japanese did” they will never root out their current acceptance of subordinating members of society to demeaning social roles. That happens in every society but most societies acknowledge it and are dealing with it. That’s not happening here and it will present itself in a very real manner in any eventual reunification. Better that the North Korean people get a new government that ISN’T united with the south than to move from KJI to tools of the Southern elitists. Thanks to people like Pawi.
what i wrote in my original post is comman knowledge, mr chips. saying they’re all lies without any backup doesn’t make them lies.
‘my original point was..’
i don’t care what your original point was. you wrote a retort to my post that didn’t do anything to retort what i wrote. all you wrote is that they’re lies. why don’t you go to your japanese sources to show us that all i wrote was an absolute lie?
but, you know what, mr chips? i’m going to address your concern:
‘koreans can’t deal with their past about slavery.’
that’s a lie.
‘how dare you use dr lankov!’
again, you don’t address the point that it was japan that introduced the sex industry to korea.
“Comman” knowledge, as you put it pawi, means that most people here accept it as true which doesn’t make it true either, dude. It just as easily means stories that have been effectively perpetuated as truth. And btw, it’s only common in this narrow part of the world; nothing you stated is commonly “known” beyond Korea’s borders and historiographers in the west have field days when it comes to the modern recording of history in Korea – it’s a joke. As an historiographer (albeit in military history) my colleagues used to laugh at me for reading modern Korean history books saying I might as well be reading Aesop’s fables.
There’s no way on God’s green earth to refute, as opposed to “retort” which I certainly did, falsehoods like those you stated when you brought no facts to the table to begin with and no measure for their veracity. “There is no such thing as air!!!!” Well, prove it damn it!
And please trace the comments with more integrity; you obviously don’t care about the point I was making, but you didn’t care about what I actually wrote either or at least you didn’t understand it. I called LIES what you misrepresented as what others had commented on; that’s dishonest and needs no proof other than a scroll up the page. For other issues, the onus is on you to claim that the language and Japanese name issues are true. Just because urban legend claims this to have happened at some point doesn’t make it true. Show me the law, show me the change in registry, show me anything you want and I’ll show you official documents as late as 1944 written in Korean and people who openly kept their Korean names without taking Japanese names, and without repercussions. As far as Dr. Lankov’s article, I’m not going to debate an issue that you have misrepresented as somebody else’s ideas. You either misread what Dr. Lankov wrote or didn’t understand it or just willfully distorted it. Read the fucking article again yourself; all the evidence is right there.
And again, my original point, people who deny Korea’s past by highlighting Japan – people like you – make a future with North Korea a social nightmare. A couple of posts back you tried to soften your tone and say you didn’t mean to be a troll and that you only wanted to highlight expat injustices towards Korea. I didn’t believe you then and I don’t now; I think you are a horror of a human being who doesn’t give a damn about anyone else other than YOU and you enjoy ignoring your country’s history and eagerly anticipate the day when you can lord over your North Korean servants and treat them with all the disrespect that you accuse the Japanese of having treated Koreans. I don’t give a damn what you think of my “point” but I’m going to say it anyways in the hopes that someone else with a willingness and ability to change the system hears and does something about it. The lies have to stop in South Korean schools if North Koreans are ever to be treated with any respect in a unified Korea. If people refuse to acknowledge their own history of slavery and the hierarchical strictures that have continued since then, then they will not see anything wrong with stratifying North Koreans, at the bottom of the pile.
yeah, you still haven’t proven that the things i wrote were lies. provide you with proof? why? what i stated is what is accepted. do a google search and you’ll see that even western encyclopeadias state what i stated. what is there for me to prove? YOU are the one with views that run counter to the norm. thus, it is up to YOU to prove your points. telling me that they’re all lies doesn’t make it so, scotty.
‘i won’t talk about lankov’s point. you need to read his article again.’
no, i don’t because i remember what he wrote: japan created mass sex industry in korea. in fact, lankov felt the need to apologize in advance for making that statement: ‘i’m no japan basher.’
‘people who deny korea’s past by highlighting japan…’
well, it seems you are denying japan’s past by highlighting korea. man, you’re a moron.
‘your korean sources…’
don’t use korean sources; don’t trust them. always a ? when i read anything from a korean historian. feel the same about japanese sources. only trust mr white*. so sorry.
pawi’s way:
thai: we gave cambodians their writing!
cambodian: we gave thais their writing!
pawi: who’s telling the truth and who really cares? let me go see what mr white has to say since he couldn’t care less about who gave what to who… ah, the cambodians are telling the truth here.
* ‘white’ does not include ‘scholars’ on japan, japanophiles, expats in korea or japan, and gerry bevers.
The norm????? What the hell does accurately reflecting what other commenters said have to do with the norm? As for Japanese language and Japanese names being required, no it is not the norm and no one outside Korea is taught that or believes it. Do you live in a box? Are you really that dense? You are every bit as bad about stifling the truth of Korean history as gbevers is about covering Japan’s. You two brothers??
Lankov clearly caviats his statements regarding prostitution to say that while the commercial, urbanized prostitution of the 1950s was a system brought by the Japanese, prostitution was not new to Korea and prostitutes were widely available and utilized by men throughout the country. That’s what I mean by telling the truth, which you did not.
“it seems you are denying japan’s past by highlighting korea. man, you’re a moron.” If that is where your reasoning abilities lead you then enjoy your psychotic life.
Forget the rest of what you said after that, it made as much sense as 5-year-old’s homework.
What the hell does “white” have to do with anything?? What racist premonition led you to believe that I’m white, or that I don’t harp on people like gbevers for being blinded japanophiles? Just ask him…
The Japanese are never taught that the Korean annexation or WWII in a positive light. Even the New Textbook that is supposed to be revisionist does not. Yet, people believe reports in the msm that it is, and believe it without confirming the contents. Once at the NAVER Korean/Japanese discussion board, a Japanese posted the section on Korean annexation in the New Textbook without saying it was so, and the Korean response was, “Now, that is a balanced textbook, which is it?” Were they surprised to learn that it was from the controversial textbook.
Japan has time and time again apologized for its past, unlike the other imperialist powers, and to my knowledge, is the only power that has paid reparitions to its former colonies instead of slapping them the tab for the modern infrastructure that was left behind. Japan does not think what we did during our imperial days was right, but that does not mean we have to accept things Japan never did as truth.
But if this is how Korea treats her scholars who have opinions that do not conform to the mob’s views, I guess they will continue to live in the world of 1984.
http://www.cbs.co.kr/nocut/show.asp?idx=374269
Sorry to break in on a heated discussion, but…
I agree with Hugh in 5.
Apologizing 21 times officially and funding many economic aids (with most of these aids not told to the public by the respective governments that it came from Japan) to China and S.Korea have gotten Japan no where with the two.
(Not to mention, S.Korea’s favorite topic regarding compensation has been dealt and closed in diplomatic writing, but they still scream about it)
Japan was and is quite dense, but I think she’s finally getting the message. Wrong tactics with these two countries.
I think a lot of Japanese envy the Germans… for the neighbors she has.
This is why I rarely visit this site these days. Too many ignorant korea bashers trying to find some excuse to bash Korea or praise japan. They let hatred rather then rationality run their emotions. Japanese people abolished slavery in Korea? Yeah right whatever. Does that explain why slavery was common in Korea and Japan even after 1910? And let me also point out that once the Japanese colonized Korea, the entire Korean peninsula became slaves to the Japanese. Forced to take Japanese names, force to learn Japanese, forced to work for the Japanese, forced to bow to the emperor, forced military draft. Koreas GDP and production went into Japanese pockets and today thousands of Korean cultural artifacts are still in Japanese museums and collections. Who cares if they built roads or factories. Do you honestly think they did this it out of a good Samaritan heart?
If Korea benefited so greatly from the Japanese then why was it that Korea was poorer then most African nations in the world even before the Korean war? Let me remind you that during the latter parts of the war the Japanese took their possessions(most of which was obtained through Korean labor), as well as Korean possessions and fled to Japan . Let me also remind you that whatever the Koreans made or produced went to the Japanese economy.
I find it incredibly stupid how people use lies or bullshit to defend japan. A couple weeks ago someone claimed that Koreans were not forced to have Japanese names which is a crock of shit. I have family members who lived through Japanese occupation and they know other people who lived through the occupation. All of them were forced to have Japanese names. Are you telling me that the Koreans who actually lived through colonization are liars? While some insecure korea basher is more believable? What excuse are some of you japan apologist going to make this time?
The logic of some of the idiots in here is mind boggling. For example whenever someone mentions Japanese colonization they make the excuse that Chosun Korea was brutal as well. Since Chosun was brutal its perfectly ok for the Japanese to be brutal to Koreans as well right? And since the Japanese were brutal to Koreans its perfectly ok for Kim Jong il to nuke Tokyo right? Its no wonder why Koreans hate morons like you.
Pawakirogi wrote:
1) “destruction of korean culture”
How did Japan destroy Korean culture? From what I have read, the Japanese seemed to appreciate it more than Koreans did, including their pottery and art. Introducing modern science and medicine to Korea was not an attempt to destroy Korean culture.
2) “forcing koreans to take japanese names”
The following is how I understand the supposedly “force-name proclamation.” Someone correct me if I am wrong.
This issue is an example of anti-Japanese Koreans making a mountain out of a molehill in an attempt to demonize the Japanese. The Japanese simply introduced the concept of “taking the husband’s family name after marriage,” as opposed to the Korean custom of the wife keeping her maiden. Even under the Japanese system, the wife’s maiden name was also recorded in the records, in deference to the Korean custom.
When the new naming system was introduced to Korea, Koreans were given the option of choosing their family name, whether it be Korean, Japanese, or whatever. If they did not choose a family name, then the family name of the head of the household (husband) was used, whether it was Japanese, Korean, or whatever. Many Koreans took the opportunity to change their family name to Japanese names, probably as a means to assimilate. They could have kept their Korean family names if they had wanted to.
The Japanese were only asking Koreans to register a family name, not a given name (first name). If Koreans wanted to also change their given name, they had to pay for the change, which probably explains why only 9.6% of Koreans living in Korea chose to also change their given name.
If the Japanese had really wanted to wipe out Korean names, then they would not have given Koreans an option to change their name or have them pay to change their given names. And they would not have included the original family names in the records.
Koreans list the name registration proclamation as an example of how the Japanese tried to wipe out Korean culture, but I think any rational person can see that that was not the case or the intent. For more information on the subject, you can look here.
3) “assassinting the queen”
Yes, a group of Japanese did assasinate the queen, with the help of Koreans, including the queen’s father-in-law. By the way, it was not the first time that the queen’s father-in-law had attempted to assasinate her. Koreans got their revenge when they assasinated one of Japan’s greatest political leaders, Ito Hirobumi.
4) “forcing their language onto koreans”
Yes, Koreans were taught the Japanese language in school, but they were also taught the Korean language for most of the period, and there were also Korean newspapers. From what I have been told, Koreans were only required to use Japanese in the classroom, not outside the classroom. How many Koreans were taught “Hangeul” before the Japanese came?
5) “plundering korea’s cultutral heritage”
Plunder is usually a part of war, and Korean cultural assets have been plundered by many people over the years, including Koreans and Americans. Are you referring to anything in particular during the colonial period?
5) “making korean palaces into zoos”
When I visited Changkyeongwon Zoo in 1882, it was packed with Koreans. If Koreans were so offended by the zoo, why did it remain popular from 1908 to 1984? Why didn’t they close it when the Japanese left in 1945?
6) “setting up korea’s sex industry”
This is the biggest lie of all, Pawi. Here is a link to a post of mine talking about how King Sejong gave orders to sent prostitutes to service his troops on the northern frontier. Korea’s sex industry was doing just fine before the Japanese came. In fact, Koreans may have introduced the concept of “comfort women” to the Japanese?
Correction: I visited Changgyeongwon Zoo in 1982, not 1882.
In the US they have black history month. They spend a lot of time in school learning about slavery. Text books contain several pages of information on slavery and teachers discuss and educate students on slavery. Furthermore it was the Americans and the British themselves who ended slavery and gave blacks citizenship. They could have continued enslaving blacks but did the opposite. The US and Britain are genuinely sorry and have shown so many many times. And then we have Japan who’s history books are so dissatisfactory and distorted that they contain little if any information on the crimes they committed. They don’t even mention how many they killed or what happened. To sum it up they just claim that bad stuff happened and that the issue shouldn’t be discussed. You also have history books that blatantly leave out colonization or the massacres they were involved in as well as large organizations of revisionist who are campaigning to remove such material and are somewhat successful in reducing the content. Tell me when was the last time that the KKK was successful in telling the US board of education what to write in history books about slavery?
In the US or Britain any politician praising slavery or making derogatory comments on blacks would be committing political suicide. He would be kicked out of his party, shamed and the media would hunt him down. In Japan a politician can praise colonization, make derogatory comments towards Koreans and Chinese and deny the Nanjing massacre and still be mayor of Tokyo.
Japan has a war shrine which contains several class A, B and C war criminals. The shrine has brochures and boards that claim that the war was the liberate Asia. This shrine claims that colonization was a good thing and makes absurd claims about how the war was justified. Its basically denial and revision. This is the moral equivalent of a museum in the US dedicated to praising slavery, praising slaveholders and claiming that blacks deserved to be slaves. Would the president of the United states and his cabinet pay homage to a museum like this and still be respected amongst the black community? Well the Japanese prime minister(Koizumi) and his cabinet has done so on a regular basis.
If any of you Korea bashers had any intelligence you would be able to distinguish the differences between western slavery and Japanese imperialism. Japanese apologies are empty. They are not sorry, their history books, politicians, war shrine tribute and denial and praise of war criminals clearly shows this.
cmc,
Can you explain why the first dictionary of Korean language for normal school was published in 1930?http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200402/200402260026.html
If they had intended to eradicate the Korean culture, they would not have allowed Korean language education in the first place.
A quote from the Joins.com article.
“we again confirm that 91 years ago we surrendered our country to the Japanese colonial government due to our hopeless ineptitude. On Aug. 29, 1910, the imperial government of Japan promulgated that it had taken over the entire government and administration of Korea, and Wednesday was the anniversary of the national humiliation. In studying this history, let us find out who chased the fish – annexation – into the net. Choson, or Korea, suggested annexation to Japan first.”
http://service.joins.com/news_asp/narticle.asp?aid=1894172
A quote from the Chosun Ilbo article.
“The Korean Peninsula late in the 19th century was a battleground for imperialist powers Japan, Russia, Britain, the United States and China. Anything that happened interlocked like a cog with the international situation. That is true even for the Kabo Peasants War now being touted as if it was somehow symbolic of nationalism and class struggle because it attacked the nobility and rejected foreign influences. In fact, we now know it to have been funded by an ultra-nationalist organization in Japan. History textbooks dealing with the era must offer lessons for the future by reviewing the harsh choices we faced at the time, the way we dealt with the machinations of the great powers, and the reason we eventually lost our sovereignty.
If we instead use history textbooks as a mere vehicle for particular ideologies and rationalize the past under the headings of nation and class struggle, modern history education is capable of doing a great deal of harm. The great powers’interest in and rivalries over the Korean Peninsula continue. If we do not teach our children that tragedy struck a century ago because we failed to assess the world situation accurately, history could well repeat itself.”
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200512/200512130027.html
At least there are some Koreans who have a lot of sense.
Actually, if YOU had any intelligence, you’d be able to distinguish the differences between Western slavery and Japanese imperialism. The Japanese have apologized some 21 times about its imperial and wartime aggression. Granted, those apologies might be of questionable sincerity, but an insincere apology is better than no apology at all. Which, by the way, is exactly how many apologies Britain has issued for the slave trade. The United States has apologized for the slave trade, but it waited until the Clinton administration to do it—sort of—and he was denounced by U.S. conservatives for doing so. And it has NOT apologized for slavery itself, as an apology would indicate responsibility (rather than teaching that slavery existed and was bad, while ignoring the question of who was responsible). And if you think that sorry state of historical reflection is bad, it’s positively stellar compared to how the West has reflected on its imperial past. And it’s imperialism that’s the better comparison, as both the West and Japan engaged in it, as opposed to the trans-Atlantic slave trade, which Japan obviously did not. As mentioned above, Japan has issued a series of apologies of debatable sincerity concerning its imperial past. The United States and Great Britain, meanwhile, have issued no apologies what-so-ever for their empires, let alone the French—who passed in 2005 a law ordering teachers to teach the “positive aspects of French imperialism” (repealed in early 2006)—or the Russians, who often seem to act as though they want their empire back.
Actually, drawing a moral equivilent between a museum glorifying a nation’s imperial past and one glorifying the trans-Atlanic slave trade is a bit silly. Most former imperial powers have museums and monuments paying tribute to imperial heros—the British were kind enough to erect one to Nelson in the heart of Dublin, Ireland which lasted until 1966 (when it was destroyed by an IRA bomb). But since you insist—wrongly—on comparing Japanese imperialism with slavery, I’ll grant you that yes, it would be tough for an American politician to visit a shrine that explicitely praises slavery and still retain respect. In that regard, I guess Mt. Vernon and Monticello don’t count, as do all the memorials to Robert E. Lee.
If the name changes were forced, how do you explain the existence of people like韓相龍 and 李埼鎔 (members of the House of Peers of Imperial Japan), 朴春琴 (members House of Representatives of Imperial Japan representing Tokyo), 洪思翊 (Lt. General of the Imperial Army), 白洪錫 (Major General of the Imperial Army), 金錫源 (Colonel of the Imperial Army), and Korean governors in the provinces of Korea such as 孫永穆 (Jeollabuk-do), 兪萬兼 (Chungcheongbuk-do, later Kangwon-to), 金大羽(Gyeongsangbuk-do), and 鄭僑源 (Chungcheongbuk-do). I mean, when you have governors retaining their Korean names, how do you convince the common people to take Japanese names? If somebody did the forcing as the Koreans claim, who were they?
Many Japanese were opposed to allowing Koreans taking on Japanese names. The reason was that they were prejudiced against the Koreans. They wanted to keep the Koreans distinguishable from the Japanese. You can’t tell a Korean with a Japanese name educated to speak Japanese apart from a “proper” Japanese. Some Japanese even claimed that the Koreans you can trust are those who chose to have Korean names.
cmc wrote
An American historian disagree.
Time to think before criticizing Japan
2005-05-05 / Knight Ridder / By Jonathan Zimmerman
Prof Bevers,
#22 of Colontos’s comment was “right on”, because I think the US dealt with its past better, and Japan did not abolish slavery in South Korea, because it felt really moral about it, they just wanted to put all Koreans down under, and the system still lived on in the real practical world.
Your suggestion that King Sejong was practicing a system of comfort women, is where you cross the line, and deserve of criticism.
I do think it’s quite intentional, too.
So, the Koreans taught the Japanese to use comfort women, eh?
Now, I know I have told you that I wouldn’t ever criticize you up to a year, but I’m not up to the highest standards, so forgive me for breaking that rule.
What I want to say here is that a lot of US men who have or are married to Korean wives, tend to vent out their frustrations with some kind of hate towards Korea. Which is understandable. I wouldn’t like my former spouse or my current spouse, especially if I had something against her. Up to 50% of American marriages have ended up in divorce. That’s a statistic, and it’s higher than Europe.
A good friend of mine is currently being forced to learn Vietnamese, and he asks me if all Asian women are jealous, and suspicious. That friend kind of worries me. Because I think he’ll someday blow up and hate all things Vietnamese.
Not to accuse you or anyone, but I’ve also heard from a former Kyopo US Army officer stationed in Seoul, that he knew of a white US Army officer married to a Korean who checked up on marmot’s blog, very frequently, taking snipes about many things Korean. He was married to a Korean and basically venting on the internet about things Korean.
I would rather see him do that than do it on occidentalism.org, which is an inferior blog. While rjkoehler’s is a blog of supreme quality.
Anyway, that’s all I want to say today.
I apologize for breaking a self imposed rule, which seems to have been broken earlier.
But, you deserve criticism.
I apologize for being crass, but I objectively conclude that Japan is sexually more open, and has been for centuries on its own, and I objectively conclude that Japan started the comfort women system and is responsible for it.
I subjectively based it, heavily subjectively, based on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_in_Japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukake
On occidentalism, I commented that pornography in Japan always seems to have the theme of rape and the uncontesting woman.
I was shot down heavily for it.
But I think that is a true assesment.
It’s a weird culture.
Is the endogenous way of contraception in Japan, pulling out and ejaculating on the women’s face?
I apologize for the links and such, but privately I am convinced that Japanese sexual culture is kind of weird and sadistic. And thus, only such a country would have okayed the comfort women system.
No way it was from King Sejong.
I admit that it is 100% subjective.
un-consenting.
Japan also has many good parts in its culture, such as keeping public bathrooms clean, obeying the law, emulating what is good from other cultures and making something way better on their own, etc.
But I must point out that there is a tendency in Japan to glorify its past Empire and look up to fascist regimes like that of Nazi Germany. Indirectly, through, animation or film or toys. This can be suggested or proven.
Have you ever heard of Mobile Suit Gundam? It is super popular even among middle aged men in Japan and many regions of Asia.
The enemy faction is always, almost always strongly reminiscent of the German Army or Hitler’s SS.
Guess which faction has a fanatic fanbase in Japan? The enemy faction that strongly resembles the Germany Army of Hitler’s SS.
No other country dares to make up an animated comicbook/film series this way. I think there’s even a manga called “Adolf”. The Japanese creators of the series gets away with it, by clearing showing that this German-look alike faction always, always, always suffers terrible defeat in the end.
But the fandom is quite impressive. There are cafes, bars, and generations of toys dedicated to these German look-alikes. Museums, too.
My point is, I don’t think Japan learned a good lesson from World War II. Because they were sheltered after the defeat. They were sheltered to prevent the spread of communism. They seem to think very highly of fascism, romanticize about it, etc.
The Japanese make more exact toy replicas of German panzers than the Germans. Go figure.
wjk, look at following statics.
South Korea is the ONLY Asian country on the top 25 for rape stats.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap
Adult sites most favored by Koreans in Asia
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2001020632980&path_dir=20010206
Harmful Websites in the Korean Language Rank 2nd
http://english.donga.com/srv/service.php3?biid=2003042888988&path_dir=20030428
Hey Robert #49 — good link about the statue of Nelson in Dublin. I’m just old enough to remember reading about that contemporaneously (in Time or Newsweek at the time, my Dad was a voracious reader of newspapers/magazines & subscribed to both, also Life/Sat Evening Post).
I wonder if anyone else will read what you wrote and immediately think of a possible future fate of the MacArthur statue Surely you didn’t mean to slyly suggest this? I note that there were efforts to “non-destructively” remove/relocate ol’ Nelson, I’d like to think that we could do the same for ol Mac (even though I know he’s strictly Korean property) before he goes up in smoke too. I like to think of us “ransoming” him as part of a general US withdrawal.
I have to admit, the more I learn about Irish history and Korean history, the more interesting the compare &contrast, though I guess some here find it tiresome.
Paul H.—Glad you like the link about the Nelson statue. It’s quite ammusing, as were some of the songs written to commemorate the occassion. Frankly, I’m shocked it lasted until 1966—it would have been like the Koreans keeping a monument to Admiral Togo in Gwanghwamun.
BTW, I wasn’t suggesting that something similar may befall the statue of Dougie Mac in Incheon. I gather most Incheon people—and most Koreans—want the statue to stay where it is, although you never know what some wack-job might do to it. Actually, I visited the statue just a couple of weeks ago, and they were doing some restoration work on it, so it would appear the authorities plan to keep the general at his post for some time to come.
genie201, In Korea, fishermen were deemed less noble than the farmer. Why?
I don’t know if it’s true, but Koreans say the majority of Japanese livlihood in past early times depended on fishing and when things got bad for fishing, pirating.
Point is, they spent a lot of time on boats. Which was good in a way, because they got to see the world, open their minds, become eventually more receptive to other cultures, and use that greatly to their advantage.
But, there is a traditional stigma in Korea for being a fisherman and especially a fisherman’s wife.
It has something to do with the fact that the man has let his wife alone for months (without any guarantee of safe return due to the nature of the job of spending time in the dangerous sea).
And yes, it has to do with sex.
But, I leave it for you to figure that out.
Giving me a link to affirm that Koreans watch porn, in retaliation, is stupid. That’s what they did, do, and will do at Occidentalism.org.
Wjk,
King Sejong had prostitutes sent to the frontlines to “service the troops.” If you do not like the term “comfort women,” then call them “service women” or create your own euphemism, but their purpose was essentially the same as Japan’s “comfort women,” except that Korea did it 500 years before the Japanese did in World War II.
That link was provided to prove false Pawikirogi’s claim that Japan was responsibly for “setting up korea’s sex industry.”
Here is what King Sejong wrote to the Governor of Hangil Province:
Prof Bevers, would you like to explain to us how those military base prostitutes are different from present day military base prostitutes found not only on US military bases on US soil, South Korean bases for South Koreans, South Korean bases for US troops, Japanese bases for US troops, and pretty much every military bases in the world?
You have no basis to say these are the same as the Japanese Empire’s comfort women.
You’re incorrigible.
Give a lecture on this at your university. They’re medical students. They should be more educated than the average citizen. They’ll love you.
I guess from both your perspective and from my persepctive, the title of this thread fits very well,
“Hard to say I’m sorry.”
Wjk,
King Sejong ordered that prostitutes be “stationed” on the frontier, just as if he were stationing soldiers there. If the prostitutes around today’s US and Korean military bases are “stationed” there by the US or Korean governments, then there would be no difference, would there?
Are the prostitutes around US and Korean military bases today stationed there by the Korean government, or do they go there on their own?
wjk,
Aren’t S. Korean whores being a problem in the U.S. currently?
And they are the 11th economic power, supposedly.
What need they of prostitution industry, unless, according to your line of reasoning, it is culturally ingrained.
well, gerry, given the choice of taking lankov’s word over yours, i’ll take lankov’s. lankov states that korea’s sex indsutry was set up by the japanese. he did, however, point out that korea had prostitution prior to the japanese but that it was the japanese who commercialized it. the japanese set up korea’s sex industry, gerry. sorry if you don’t like that. but you should be thankful, gerry; you and i know why.
‘i used to get drunk more back home but east asia has more easy whores, so i have sex more.’ expat representative
***
PAWI TEACHES THE EXPAT
let’s say you’re sick and you’re going to die. then let’s say someone comes up to you and offers you a medicine that would cure you of your illness. let’s say you decide you don’t want the medicine even though you know you’ll die without it. does the person who is offering you that medicine have a right to force you to take that medicine? what would you do if the person actully tried to force you? that’s what i thought, expat. i knew you understood. your vengeance is stronger than your abiltity to ackowledge the truth. and that, expat, is the jizz of the matter.
class dismissed.
Pawi,
You take Lankov’s word; I’ll take King Sejong’s.
I do not understand what you mean by “commercialized”? Prostitution means “sex for money,” which means it is already commercialized.
Maybe, Lankov meant “privatized”? In other words, maybe Lankov was talking about Japan’s ending Korea’s government prostitution?
shadkt, check out the cia world factbook,when you have the leisure to do so, just as I am responding you after a well deserved meal.
GDP of South Korea = $22600.
GDP of USA = $41600.
Considering also that health care in South Korea covers visits, but abandones you very quickly when you need a life saving surgery,
and that govt retirement plans have yet to pay out more than $1000 a month (this social security thing was non existant until Uri Party came to power),
and the well known tremendous disparity among the rich and the poor,
Not all Koreans are living like the 11th best economy in the world.
There are whores all over the USA, too. In poor US cities, like East St. Louis, Compton, Newark, there are tons of motels that don’t get any customers except to house prostitutes and serve as the business places of these prostitutes. If you’d like to know a little more in depth, these are predominantly black cities, thanks to white flight.
All over the world, poor women will sell their bodies.
And, I emphasize that Japan was, is, and will be a very sexually open culture.
Korea is not so. At least on the surface. You can be prosecuted for making an adult film.
And like Pawi said, Japan is to blame for some of the sex business structure in South Korea.
沿疑錐税 尻姥拭 税馬檎 洛秡釟生稽 瑳 凶 霹獰秡營 鈿椀拭 鉦 2幻誤 舛亀税 偈匈亜 糎仙梅揮 依生稽 蓄舛鞠澗汽 戚依精 穿端昔姥税鉦 0.5%拭 背雁馬澗 依戚陥. 戚掻拭辞 賺舉引 憤搗研 謂搾廃 偈匈澗 益軒 弦精 収切亜 焼艦陥. 絲淅蟹 兩巵拭 蟹展蟹澗 偈匈澗働呪廃 採嫌拭 紗馬澗 益醤源稽 識澱閤精 糎仙虞壱 拝 呪 赤陥. 益君蟹 酔軒澗 ‘偈匈’馬檎 戚坦軍 識澱閤精 護護幻聖 彊臣軒壱, 益依幻聖 舛莫鉢馬食 閤焼級心奄 凶庚拭 匈弋撼劦税 幽祚躡戚暗蟹 攜拮人 禽嬢貝 憤搗, 淪嘲檢研 管亜馬澗 越 蛇松人 益顕 蛇松, 瑪拭淫廃 切政稽崇, 紫帖廃 持醗 去生稽 偈匈虞澗 戚耕走研 莫雌鉢馬心陥
http://www.sungshin.ac.kr/~kowoin/e_3g.htm
there were 20 thousands kisaeng and it was 0.5% of the whole population. And The fact is that there were only few who could sing and dance
………………….
In 1989, 23.3 percent of all South Korean women worked as prostitutes.In 1994, a staggering one-fifth of all females there aged 15 to 29 (1.6 million) worked as prostitutes. That’s 2 out of every 10.
http://www.thegully.com/essays/asia/031030_korea_gender_lgbt.html
The revenue generated is estimated to be more than US$21 billion a year, or more than 4% of the nation’s gross domestic product (GDP), according to the Ministry of Gender Equality, which also says more than 500,000 women and girls are employed.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FI25Dg05.html
I clicked on the link and read the entire article. I find the figures incredible. The story explains that many prostitutes freelance through their jobs as hotel or restaurant workers. I still doubt the accuracy of the statistic, and the original article provided no links to back up any of its impressive-sounding statistics.
I can’t speak for the prostitution statistics, but I can confirm that the skewed sex-ratio figures for third and fourth offspring do seem to be in the right ballpark; unsourced or no, the numbers provided by the article can’t simply be dismissed out of hand just because they seem outlandish.
Actually a little digging on Wikipedia digs up this article, which gives a figure of either 1.5 million (according to an unnamed NGO) or 500,000 (according to the S. Korean government); take the average of the two figures and you have a nice round 1 million female sex workers, or about 4% of females of all ages in the country, and once you take population structure and age skew into account, a figure of 10-15% of all women aged 15 to 29 seems quite reasonable. That “only” 1 in 7 of all young Korean women should be whores doesn’t seem to be much of an argument for condemning Japan’s supposed moral laxity, however …
Sorry, here is the link to the Wikipedia article.
Prof Bevers, I think we’ve been over the exact same argument on occidentalism.
So, I’ll re-type what I believe I wrote back then.
In Sejong’s case and in the case of current military bases, these people were already prostitutes.
In the case of the comfort women, they were not already prostitutes. They were made prostitutes.
Oh, I already understand what you would say. That your case can be strengthened by a US military report, a single report, typed up by a Japanese American who was showing off his loyalty to the USA by fighting in the World War II’s Pacific theater. Surely what this Japanese American US military officer typed up back then is 100% right, because he came up with the conclusion that meshes perfectly with the past and current Japanese defense. That, the comfort women were prostitutes who were voluntary, and the Japanese army had nothing to do with it. They were also paid very well. Not abused.
You teach ethics to medical students. Why? You have a dark mind.
You do realize that Sejong is 1 of the only 2 Korean kings in history objectively granted the honor of Dae Wang (Great King) by historians after his death, right?
You shouldn’t be surprised at all that you were asked by your boss to keep your offensive hobby in private. You shouldn’t be surprised at all.
Kim Haksun, the first woman to have come forward as a “Comfort Woman”was a kisaeng.
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/genderInstitute/pdf/listeningToVoices.pdf.
There is no justification for Japanese exploitation of the comfort women during WW2.
Likewise there is no justification for Korean exploitation for Korean women after the independence.
The point is Japanese government apologized and set up the funds for the former comfort women, albeit insufficiently.
Korean government has never apologized for the similar system.
What is worse, Korea nationalists keep blaming Japan while ignoring Korea’s own faults.
wjk, Do not use ad hominem attack, or you’ll look bad.
sky, since Maki Kimura is the author of your link, it certainly must be true.
It seems to be just a detective work on published testimonies.
although I admit I just scanned it.
I checked out the Wikipedia article. A statistic from an unnamed source,
“a civic organization,” is useless because there is no way to judge credibility, and this was pointed out in the discussion section.
Wjk,
King Sejong sent prostitutes to Korea’s frontier camps, which were considered difficult duty even for the men, so even if all the women that were sent were prostitutes, I wonder how many wanted to go to such dangerous, uncomfortable, and remote areas? We do not know how the women during Sejong’s time were recruited, but it seems unlikely that they would have wanted to go to such places voluntarily. Of course, that would most likely not have been a problem during that time since the prostitutes would have most likely been government slaves.
If you go to the Annals of the Chosun Dynasty Kings Web site, and type in 창기, which means “prostitute,” the Annals of King Sejong gets 91 hits, more than any other king during that dynasty. I do not understand what you mean to imply by reminding me that King Sejong had “the Great” attached to his name, but King Sejong had no qualms about prostitution.
I do not teach “ethics” to medical students; I teach English. And why do I have a “dark mind” by simply showing that Korea’s own historical records refute the ridiculous claims made by anti-Japanese posters?
wjk,
Lighten up. The Great King Sejong was not Saint Sejong. Yi Dynasty society was very hierarchical and male-dominated. Peasant women had little human worth, and Korean slaves, just like slaves elsewhere, were chattel. It is plausible that female slaves and peasants were forced into sexual servitude under harsh conditions during the reigns of Chosun kings, including Sejong. He lived according to the values of the 15th Century, not the 21st Century.
According to the report released by the Korean Institute of Criminology (KIC), the nation’s sex trade was estimated at 24 trillion won ($20.4 billion) last year, accounting for 4.1 percent of 578 trillion won, the total GDP. …..The report estimated that up to 4.1 percent of Korean women in their 20s and 30s work in the business. This accounts for 8 percent of employed women in these age groups.
http://kalaniosullivan.com/KunsanAB/8thFW/Howitwasb11d6.html#Hypocrites
Thanks for the link, sky. Four percent is much, much lower than the 23% and 20% figures touted in the earlier post. Even if the KIC’s rough estimate of “up to a million” is accepted, that is still only about 12 percent of the 9 million Korean women aged 15-35.
BTW, “whore” is a perjorative term, Hans. People who provide paid sexual services are sex workers.
You are welcome sonagi.
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/culture/200512/kt2005121619374810980.htm
http://www.icasinc.org/2000/2000s/2000scss.html
good points by both Gbevers and Sonagi. As a matter of fact, the French Army was in the field brothel business right up until the mid-1970s (at least in overseas Legion postings). One reason for such brothels was the obvious advantage of allowing the men a sexual outlet while living embedded in Muslim societies where relations between local women and foreign infidels could trigger serious unrest. Institutions and history are best evaluated by using the standards of the times. Trumbull, in his excellent work on the Imjin Wars (Samurai Invasion), makes the point that the Japanese Samurai treated the Korea population pretty harshly, which is exactly how they treated their own.
Genie that book was published by a Korean publishing company. Some Korean book companies were able to print anti Japanese or pro independence books and material although they were done in secret(for example the historian Sin Chaeho). And judging by the book your attempting to make me believe that Japan didn’t try to obliterate Korean culture right? dōka seisaku (Japans assimilation policy) aimed towards Koreans attempted to destroy Korean culture in many different ways. Korean schools taught only Japanese history and Emperor worship. Korean children were forced to swear loyalty to the emperor and to worship at Shinto shrines. Koreans were forced to learn Japanese, children who were caught speaking Korean were punished academically. Then theres the name changing or the murder of thousands of pro independence Koreans. Traditional Korean buildings, poems, books etc were either destroyed, damaged or altered to suit Japanese needs. For example Korean shrines were converted to Japanese shrines. Several Korean songs, books and poems before colonization were collected and either destroyed or re-written to suit Japanese needs. Japanese schools taught fabricated history or a view that ancient Korea was non existent and that it was always a part of japan. Thousands of Korean cultural artifacts were taken away to japan or burnt(even today thousands of Korean artifacts are still japan and they have yet to return them) Then you had a large number of Japanese police officers enforcing these laws and executing or making certain Koreans individuals “disappear“. Koreans who secretly taught Koreans anything the Japanese found dissatisfactory were routinely jailed and executed. I can go on and on.
Btw heres a link from the US library of congress
http://countrystudies.us/south-korea/7.htm
—-
Two cents if you have no idea what youre talking about then its best not to comment at all. Go look up Imperial Decree 19 and 20(조선민사령 “帝令19朝鮮民事令”). It was a Japanese law that blatantly stated that all Koreans MUST give up their Korean names and switch to Japanese names. 1 year after imperial decree 19 and 20 began 84% of the Korean population had Japanese names. Most of them being forced upon the populace. Even before those 2 decrees there were other laws and methods used to make Koreans change their names.
——-
sky- Your article fails to make any decent point that can be used against me. American schools spend several days on slavery. Text books are rich in detail on what happened during slavery. You also have black history month which d
Slavery is not encouraged and is seen in a negative light. On the other hand you have morons who claim that Japanese colonization was a good thing for east asia. Or claims that the Japanese were liberating asia or that the nanking massacre didn’t exist. Claims that non Japanese people did not suffer during the war. These statements are made by Japanese politicians and even its educators. Do you honestly think an American politician, teacher or member of the board of education would have a career left if they claimed that slavery was a good thing for the African american population and that blacks did not suffer? Well in Japan you can have a career and be celebrated by right wing nuts. Look at Shintaro Ishihara(former mayor of Tokyo) and all the crap he said.
Japanese text books gloss or completely ignore its war crimes. Whenever Japanese text books mention comfort women they don’t tell the reader what comfort women are. They just say its bad or “regrettable”. Comfort women is only the tip of the iceberg. You have other issues like imperialist aggression, the murder of millions throughout asia, annihilation of culture, human guinea pigs for medical experiments, occupation, torture, mass theft etc. Most of this is ignored in favor of quick non descript accounts or even revision. Its incredibly unfair that the guy in that article(doesn’t work anymore) compares american education to Japanese education. I am sick and tired of all these japan apologist.
Robert Koehler you have no idea what youre talking about. You openly admit that japans apologies are questionably in sincerity. Its like kicking my dog and then apologizing to me while spitting on my dog. Korea and Chinese doesn’t like the the way Yasunki shrine is used. It has requested many many times for the shrine to remove all war criminals within it. Yet the Japanese has refused to do so thanks to its incredibly influential extreme right wingers. An apology is a true apology when it is sincere. Great Britain abolished slavery themselves, they ended the trade and ended up combating them. They set up laws to make blacks equal and now they teach their children that slavery is wrong as well as the negative aspects of slavery, imperialism and belief in supremacy. Apologies are mere words if you don’t act them out. Their government continues to support organizations that attempt to distort or white wash history. They continue to harbor politicians who lie and throw hate tirades. And their politicians continue to visit a shrine that houses war criminals despite the protest of its neighbors.
You cant compare this to the west because quite frankly in the west it would not be tolerated. And tell me when was Admiral Nelson considerd a class A, B or C war criminal? Admiral Nelson has a museum because he made Britain a seafearing power and its greatest admiral. A museum is quite different from a shrine. Because a museum seeks to educate while a shrine is their for worship and respect. People do not go to the holocaust museum to worship hitler. Nor do they got to a museum dedicated to say Nelson just to worship his bad side. They go to learn. Those Japanese politicians on the other hand go to Yasunki to worship those war criminals. And if you think they are not then why don’t they remove those criminals from that shrine? Its not even that hard since their bodies are not buried there.
And I did not attempt to compare Japanese imperailism to slavery. I only used it as an example of how different Japan acts from say the US or Britain(both countries ended slavery on their own will and educate their children properly about it unlike the lieing Japanese).
To cme,
I have nothing to say about the comparison debate, but I further up you commented that the Japanese have not really apologized, and that it is lip service that Koreans can see through.
I lean towards agreeing with you. My point to you, and Koreans, is this – what are you as Koreans getting out of this unending angry demanding for apologies? And, isn’t any apology that is given after pressure and demands kind of worthless anyways? I personally think the unending Korean demands for apology are the actions of a deeply divided people grasping for some sense of unity, even if it is the unity of a common hatred. I know you are not in a position to speak for the Korean people, but for the heck of it I’d just like to ask you: why not just give up on them as a bad lot? Decided that in the Korean people’s view they are untrustworthy arseholes, and be wary around them, and shut the fuck up with all this snivelling and whining and rolling in the mud of ‘victimhood’. You know, give them a national ‘Fuck off’ and really forget about it and go about your business. Make a new national identity that is at it’s core secure and calm, and not represented by nuts chopping their fingers off or elementary school hate poster exhibitions.
They say the best revenge is living well – so do that. Increase your GDP. Solve your education problem. Make your violent compatriots to the north be reasonable. Spend all this Korean mental energy you spend cursing the Japanese into thinking up ways to solve Korea’s real and immediate problems.
cme, don’t you think endlessly asking for an certain kind of apology that is never, never, never going to come kind of banging your head on the wall?
I’m not the one who insists on condemning the “immorality” of “open” Japanese sexuality while extolling Korea’s superior virtue. Take the argument up with those who do. Anyway, what’s “pejorative” about stating the fact that these women are whores? That’s what they are, and there’s no point hiding behind terms like “sex worker” as if relabelling a janitor a “sanitation engineer” would make the job more prestigious.
As for your dismissal of the stats I linked to, it’s remarkable how lazy you are about doing any digging yourself, or you’d see that there are any number of Korean-sourced articles giving that same 500,000-1.2 million figure; besides, even using the Korean government’s official statistics we’re still talking about 7% of all young Korean women at a minimum, not the comforting 4% you’d prefer to believe for whatever reasons of your own.
wjk,
I don’t understand what you’re trying to prove by putting out GDP comaparison between US and S.Korea. Every other country has less GDP than US since US is the no.1 economy in the world.
>Not all Koreans are living like the 11th best economy in the world.
Well, she IS the 11th economic power in the world and if there are unevenness of wealth in S.Korea, that’s just the problem of S.Korean government isn’t it?
It’s not like Japan doesn’t have unevenness of wealth either, but I’ve never heard of Japanese prostitute rings invading the U.S., not even 10, 20 years ago.
>And like Pawi said, Japan is to blame for some of the sex business structure in South Korea.
Ah… as I remember, Japan only occupied Korea for 36 years and it has been 61 years since the end of the war. Anyone directly affected, if indeed the sex industry is Japan’s fault (cough cough), is gone or almost gone. Any current sex industry problem S.Korea has now is her own problem. It just means that the fathers and brothers have done little to improve the conditions of their daughters and sisiters.
By blaming the problem on Japan, you are basically saying that S.Korea is so messed up and is a weak society that it cannot eradicate social problems by herself even after 61 years.
Blaming all problems on Japan is a very convenient and neat crutch for the SK society and government to lean on and close their eyes on their own woes.
As long as SK leans on that cruth, don’t you think they’re making themselves cripples?
I wonder if Korea (and her defenders) will still be crying foul even after 100 years…
The 500,000 figure is official. Higher numbers are estimates. There are nine million Korean women between the ages of 15 and 35, according to the US Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idbpyr.html )500,000 divided by 9 million is less than 5%. The Korean government’s high estimate is one million; divide that by nine million and get about 12%.
Oops, I meant to say a little more than 5%.
I think Korea needs more rational people like Ji Man-won.
So, somewhere between 4% and 12% of that female demographic. Strikes me that under 18 and over 30 don’t account for many of the total; only helps to push the average down. Wonder what it looks like for 18 to 29? And over 4% of Korea’s economy. For reference sake it’s estimated that it’s 3% of Thailand’s economy, approx. $4.3 billion–surprised by this as I would have guessed the reverse. Maybe Thailand’s repution as Asia’s Meat Market is better suited to Korea, especially since Korea’s take exceeds $20 billion. I’ll make note of it when folks ask me about Korea.
cmc,
No I won’t shut up because this isn’t your blog, and you haven’t shown any evidence to counter my claims. If any of the owners tells me to shut up, I will. Apparently, it’s Koreans like you and Korean scholars who can’t read the original Japanese documents like the ones below. They are the original laws and amendments concerning the Korean Civil Law (朝鮮民事令). No where does it say to make Koreans adopt Japanese names.
http://www.jacar.go.jp/
Reference codes: A02030160700 [Amending Korea Civil Ordinance (Creating son-in-law and adopted son systems and regulation related to lineage concerning system)], etc.
Try the English search, and type in the key words “Civil Law Korea.” Too bad you can’t read the search results, though. A majority of Korean scholars can’t either. They simply lack the Japanese language skills necessary to study the period and make up stories that suit the present emotional and political situation, taking advantage of the fact that the majority of the Koreans now can’t read Chinese characters and are incapable of reading past records. Since you brought it up, Decree 19 states that the amendments to the Civil Law (defining family unit, divorces, divorces in case where the man has married into his wife’s family, and adoption of males from different clans) will be implemented, and that Korean must create a family name, which will be the title of the basic unit of the family under the Civil Law, within 6 months. Decree 20 says that Koreans cannot use the names of emperors, past or present, and that they will basically have to use their clan name as family name (自己ノ姓以外ノ姓ハ氏トシテ之ヲ用フルコトヲ得ズ), unless they are creating a completely new family unit. In other words, a Mr. Kim could not register his family name as Pak. Thus, you will see that in the actual implementation, Koreans who failed to register a new family name automatically ended up with their Korean clan name appearing as the family name on their family register. Decree 20 also states that the family name and given names on the register cannot be changed, unless permission is obtained following procedures designated by the Consulate General (氏名ハ之ヲ変更スルコトヲ得ズ但シ正当ノ事由アル場合ニ於テ朝鮮総督ノ定ムル所ニ依リ許可ヲ受ケタルトキハ此ノ限ニ在ラズ).
If the Japanese wanted to wipe out Korean names, all Koreans who failed to register a family name by the deadline August 10, 1940 would have forcibly been given Japanese names. Instead, the Japanese government simply used the Korean clan name as the new family name. Even the Korean royal family and aristocrats (who had been given the same status under Imperial Japan) continued to use their Korean names. Nearly 80% of the Koreans in Japan kept their Korean names. So, who did the forcing in Korea, where only 1% of the population was Japanese? The Governor-General, Jiro Minami, seems to have thought that giving Koreans a chance to take on Japanese-style names was a morally good act, after all it was the 2600th anniversary of the foundation of Japan and such occasions called for generosity, but even he passed orders strictly forbidding any forcing.
cmc
Text books are rich in detail on what happened during slavery.
That is what my article denied.
May I ask you when was the last time white police men lynched African-Americans? And when was the last time Japanese police did such a thing to Korean people?
(And keep in mind, the large number of police men were Korean during the colonization.)
And may I ask when American government apologized and compensated to Black women? And can I have a link to a statement of apology by the US government to the Philippines?
There are always morons.
I know a Japanese minister who said not everything was bad during the colonization. He was forced to resign.
Ishihara is still the mayor of Tokyo.lol He may be Édith Cresson in Japan.
This name brouhaha is pretty interesting–nice info Two cents. I recall that Korean slaves (nobi), 30-40% of the population, weren’t allowed family names. It was the Japanese who, by finishing off slavery and through decrees such as 19 & 20, provided the structure for them to become “humans”. The links between surnames and class are all around you.
It is peculiar that Koreans fall for this fiction of name changes by the Japanese, yet have little to say about the fact of name restrictions imposed by and on their own kind.
Ishihara Shintarou is not a mayor. He’s governor.
Tokyo is a prefecture, afterall.
genie201:
That’s an interesting excerpt. Still, we can’t blame the Koreans themselves for refusing to acknowledge the good parts of the colonial era. Lots of slaves were better fed, housed and even educated in the USA than they had been as free people in Africa. What happened to them was still horrible, no?
If Blacks had equal right as their master, that wasn’t horrible yes?
Koreans had equal rights as Japanese.
Not the right to determine their nation’s future, certainly? It’s no answer to say that the Japanese treated their own people just as badly. If the USSR had occupied the USA and granted Americans all the same rights as Soviet citizens, it still wouldn’t have been nice.
I agree that Koreans engage in too much disingenuous writing about the colonial period. But to claim that the colonial period was good for Korea, that Koreans should be grateful to Japan etc, is a little much in the opposite direction.
Koreans were elected as an congressman. There were many Korean governers.
I agree.It is regreatable that a few Japanese speak that way.It is also regreatable that a few Koean think Japan should be greatful for what Korea brought for Japan in ancient times.
Both of them should move on.
The guy who used that outdated rape statistic should get a clue. That study was done right after the asia financial crisis that hit Korea several years ago. Crime rates soared during that period until Korea came to grips with itself. Its illogical to compare rape rates between different countries. Country A might be much more strict on rapes while country B will ignore rapists and scold the rape victim. Take Japan for example when the police chief told the newspaper “if youre being raped then try to enjoy it, theres nothing we can do”. That’s not the exact quote but its pretty close.
If porn was readily available on the streets, shops, newspapers etc then people wouldn’t rely on the internet as much. Korea has a very high internet connection rate, as well as hundreds if not thousands of PC rooms offering internet connection. Not to mention the freedom and anonymity they have once they are on the internet.
To Hugh
Its good to see a poster on marmot hole with common sense. Koreans are not seeking another dishonest twisted apology from japan. No one is more sick of them then Korea and China. What Korea wants is action. Can you really call it an apology when your government still discriminates against Koreans, lies to its people, distorts and denies its history and worships war criminals? Its not that hard to distinguish between honesty and sincerity vs deception and lies. Korea and China wants Japans words to match its actions. It wants Japan to quit distorting and lieing about history. Take out the war criminals at Yasukuni. Recognize its crimes rather than denying them. Maybe then will Korea try to move on. Although Japan isn’t helping with its issues on dokdo and the east sea. As well as its numerous provocations. Contrary to popular belief its Japan not Korea that makes a fuss out of everything and starts insulting the other side for no reason. Remember that book “hate korea wave” which bashed Korea simply they were Koreans.
Korea is increasing its GDP(although Roh isn’t helping) and will soon catch up and surpass japans GDP per capita(currently 22,600 vs. 31,600). Do you really think it’s a good idea for everyone to ignore japan and allow it to do whatever it wants. That would be a Japanese right wingers dream come true. And the last thing anyone wants is more right winger extremist.
Two Cents your stupidity knows no bounds. Your bias is beyond laughter or words and your arguments are so feeble and pathetic that even a 10 year old child can crush you in a debate.
First let me point out your bias. You use a Japanese site which claims that Koreans wernt forced to changed their names. Japanese sites also claim that colonial rule was heaven and that the nanking massacre didn’t occur. Funny how you use one and only one Japanese site in an attempt to prove your argument on Korean names.
Why don’t you go read those laws. Ordinance 19 and 20 forced people to change their names. It cant get any more obvious then that.
If you don’t know what the library of congress is here is a definition-
“The Library of Congress is the de facto national library of the United States and the research arm of the United States Congress. It is one of the largest and most important libraries in the world.”
And heres the link from the library of congress which states that Koreans were forced to change their names.
http://countrystudies.us/south-korea/7.htm
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Look at these links which states that Koreans were forced to change their names
http://www.zmag.org/Japan/Society/Apartheid1.html
http://www.aasianst.org/EAA/lostname.htm
http://www.japanfocus.org/products/details/2220
http://www.usjp.org/jpeducation_en/jpEdForeignEd_en.html#mozTocId930152
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/eacp/japanworks/webcourse/key_points/kp_11.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1268800.stm
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/eacp/japanworks/teachingaids/korea/korea_in_east_asian_and_world_hi.htm
http://www.wcities.com/en/guide/history/81/guide.html
I can find hundreds of sites which state the well established fact that Koreans were forced to change their names. The only sites your going find on your claims come from history revisionist sites from Japan. You know the same sites who make preposterous claims that no one in the international comunit accepts. The international community agrees that Koreans were forced to change their names. The only people denying this happen to be Japanese nationalist or the morons who believe in them because they hate korea or happen to be japanophiles. Just like how all scientists today agree that global warming is real excluding those who work for or paid handsomely by oil companies.
Not to mention the hundreds, thousands of books on Japanese colonization which states that Japan forced Koreans to adopt Japanese names. So are you telling me that my family members who lived during Japanese occupation(unlike yours) are a bunch of liars. Are you telling me that my families neighbors or the millions who actually lived during colonial rule(unlike you or your family) are all a bunch of liars? So who am I going to believe? The Koreans who lived during Japanese colonialism or a poorly made Japanese site with a reputation for lieing and distorting history? Hmmm tough call. Who should we believe, the hundreds of western historians and professors or some douche from a Japanese website? Do you know what Doublespeak is? Well, Japan is nation built on double speak. Anyone whos been to japan knows what I mean. They say something yet its intentions mean something else. Your one of those idiots who actually believes what Japan says rather then its true intentions. Japans claim for its greater east asian sphere was a doublespeak. The same goes for its colonization for Korea(which japan claims was to help Korea rather then enslave and crush) The same goes for its apologies or its histories. Too bad you don’t know what im talking about because youre dim witted.
Heres some advice for you. Close internet explorer. Delete all files in your computer. Get a hammer and bash your computer until its no longer recognizable. Go outside. Dig a hole and bury yourself.
Citing from cmc’s comment #84:
OK, if you say so. And please, feel free to call me Robert.
Yes, I did. But I also said an insincere apology is better than no apology at all, which is just how many apologies the United States, Britain, France and Russia have given their former colonies.
Or eating it (sorry, couldn’t resist. Besides, my birthday is coming up, so I’ve got bosintang on my mind)
So what? Egypt has asked Britain to return all the shit in the British museum it stole while running the place, and the British told them to bugger off. Ditto the French when the Koreans asked for the Ganghwa-do archives back. In other words, just because a former colony asks you to do something doesn’t mean the former metropol has to listen.
Both parts are true. And neither detract from my point—that Western powers have no right to judge Japan for the manner in which it handles—or doesn’t handle—its imperial past. The fact that former Western imperial powers—unlike Japan—have issued not even an insincere apology for colonialism is due to incredibly influential lobbies that are still very proud of their colonial legacy and, perhaps more importantly, don’t want to get hosed with paying financial restitution.
Whether the West teaches that imperialism is wrong is highly, highly debatable. France, for example, felt it necessary to pass a law demanding that schools teach the positive aspects of French colonialism. My school textbooks didn’t harp on all the nastiness the U.S. did in the Philippines—I had to wait till university to get a real exposure to what went on. And the British? Sure, like most Western countries, the British would probably agree that it wouldn’t be right to go around colonizing half the planet now, but are the British sorry for what they did in Africa? India? Ireland? If so, where’s the apology? They won’t even apologize for the slave trade. Not even the Germans, who you’d think were the world masters of the art of apology, have shown any inclination to apologize for acts of borderline genocide in German Southwest Africa (present-day Namibia) prior to WW I. Yes, apologies are mere words without the acts to back them up, but a refusal to apologize is a refusal to accept responsibility for acts, regardless of how much you may or may not teach schoolchildren that bad things happened in Ireland or India during the colonial period. What that amounts to is “Well, it would be wrong today, but back then it was OK.” If that sounds familiar to what the Japanese right says, it should. Not even the wackjob running Tokyo is calling for Japanese troops to recolonize Korea and Manchuria; what they debate is the propriety of colonialism at the time it was done as well as claim—like many Americans would in regards to the Philippines or Europeans would in regard to their former colonies—that they did a lot of good things in their imperial posessions. Certainly you don’t believe that it’s only in Japan where the “white man’s burden” (or “yellow man’s burden,” as it were in this case) still retains a hold on society’s collective memory?
Admiral Nelson wasn’t classified a war criminal because a) he won and b) the legal concept of “war crime” wasn’t really in place prior to 1905, and “crimes against peace” and “crimes against humanity” until 1945. There is also c) he died in battle and d) Nelson, as far as I know, didn’t do anything that would remotely be considered a war crime, although he did serve an imperialist regime and was promoted by said regime as a national hero. I brought it up simply to show that not only did colonizers build monuments to their imperial heros, they occassionally did so right in the heart of the colonies themselves—despite “many requests” (to paraphrase you) by Dublin’s citizens to have the offensive monument removed, it stayed just where it was until the IRA took it upon itself to perform a little urban renewal of its own in ’66. But since you brought it up, how abouts Stone Mountain? Monument Avenue? Stonewall Jackson Shrine? Jackson Memorial Hall at VMI? Or how about my personal favorite, the (read the post) Lincoln Memorial? I mean, sure, all those visitors go to the Lincoln Memorial out of respect for all the nice things Honest Abe did, like free the slaves and keep the Union together. They don’t celebrate him as the man who oversaw the invention of “total war” as one of his generals cut a path of destruction through Georgia and the Carolinas… a man who’d have certainly been convicted as a war criminal had he lived today. But really, does it make a difference? I’m sure Koizumi didn’t go to Yasukuni to praise Tojo Hideki for Nanjing and the comfort women. Doesn’t make Tojo any less a war criminal, does it? Or make praying at the shrine any less offensive.
And as for the rest, yes, you’re right—despite the fact that, for example, the British Museum is the biggest collection of stolen goods in the world and could, for all intents and purposes, be seen as a monument to the Empire, it is not, in and of itself, a shrine to Britain’s imperial past. That’s what the Imperial War Museum if for, after all! Ooo, here’s a Mau Mau revolver—no white-washing or distortions in that account of the Kenyan Emergency. Hmmm, interesting take on the Rhodesian War. In fact, here the whole online collection concerning the Commonwealth and decolonization—let me know when you find anything resembling reflection and profound regret over Britain’s colonial misdeads.
cmc,
Well-spoken on most of your posts! I also have family members who lived through the Japanese colonization, and let me tell you they were NOT happy about being forced to change their names from Korean ones to Japanese ones NOR were they happy about being forced to study Japanese in school.
I don’t know why the bitter people like Gbevers and the right-wing Japanese have to spread lies about their past. It really isn’t helping relations at all.
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