Oh, no, the prime minister has issued another half-hearted, insincere apology lacking in any real reflection over his nation’s historical misdeeds.
Oh, wait, it’s the British.
Abiola Lapite puts it best:
Neither the British nor the Americans are capable of apologizing for something so obviously wrong and so well established, and yet it’s the Japanese, who have actually apologized some 21 times, who are routinely accused of “revisionism”, “amnesia” and “insincerity.” Pardon me if I refuse to join in such egregious hypocrisy: I’ll start getting worked up over the supposedly ominous implications of Japan’s alleged lack of remorse just as soon as the Western press and intelligentsia start flaggelating their own elites for their own historical misdeeds.
Everyone wants the Japanese to apologize as sincerely as the Germans, but as I pointed out in May, they already are.
BTW, I’m not defending “two-faced” Japanese insincerity as far as apologizing for its past goes. But truthfully, is there another former empire out there that has apologized better?
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104 Comments
Didn’t Clinton apologize for Vietnam, slavery, killing native Americans, sticking a cigar in….
Anyway, isn’t all this apology BS worthless if the U.S. gov’t acts like doesn’t have to answer to anybody and rejects the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court? Just sayin.’
It’s just political expedience to demand/make apologies, as I think you’re saying, so at this point I don’t see why the U.S., Japan, Germany, et al need to apologize for anything outside of dealing with documented claims for personal compensation. The blanket apologies are useless.
Talk about your apples and oranges. And pineapples and bananas and kiwi. You and Lapite are really mixing your issues. Slavery was a generally accepted practice around the world until modern times. War has generally been considered “bad” by most people, at most times.
Anyhow, the issues of Japan and its colonial era the Pacific War are in the process of moving from memory into history. Just as World War I has already for most people in the West. After all, who gets upset by someone arguing France was not at fault for the Napoleonic Wars? Japan’s past will be academic within a generation.
I’m sorry, Haisan, but war and imperialism was a fairly accepted way of doing things up until modern times, too. In fact, it was accepted far longer than slavery—the British abolished the slave trade in 1803 and slavery itself in 1833. The Berlin Conference—which divided Africa among the European colonial powers—wasn’t held until 1885. The Sykes-Picot Agreement—dividing the Middle East between Britain and France—wasn’t made until 1916, six years after Japan had officially annexed Korea.
Well, here’s one thing that immediately springs to mind, a difference between Britain and Japan. Britain stopped the slave trade of it’s own accord, and fairly soon after they stopped doing it themselves, they actively tried to use their naval superiority to prevent other countries from doing it. When the American slave trade continued, all the ships that were trying to catch the slavers were British. Hardly the same as a Japan that only stopped exploiting folks (let’s talk about forced labor and sexual slavery as an approximate equivalent to slavery) after having the snot beaten out of it by the Allies, and has never attempted to prevent it or even speak out against it when it occurs elsewhere.
Listen, Mr. Marmot, I know from experience that living in Korea for a long time makes you look at Japan as ‘the Korea that could have been’ and it’s tempting to dismiss any argument against Japan only because it’s sometimes the Koreans who are making it. But people have a real point here. Japan didn’t ’stop’ exploiting people, they ‘were stopped.’ And for anyone to draw parallels between the way the USA, for example, deals with its past and the way Japan does is absolutely ridiculous. Britain, you may have a point, France, you definitely do. But USA and Germany vs. Japan? No contest, none.
In the West, an admission of guilt and apology is the first step in a redemptive process, whereupon the next stage is acceptance of the apology and forgiveness by the victim.
In East Asia (Korea/Japan/China) an admission of guilt and apology is a justification for punishment, and the next stage is punishment. The one apologizing has by his apology lowered himself below your boot, so contempt and abuse are the next order of business. Knowing its neighbors too well, Japan is becoming well aware that further apologies will be met only with further contempt from Korean and China, so what’s the point?
Secondly, for the Germans to say “Our grandfathers were criminals” is tough, but not so bad in the West because we feel ancestors are dead, gone and no particular credit or discredit to us. In East Asia though, belief in bloodlines and ‘family’ (here family would be defined as the nation) influence prevails - think about the ceremony of offering to ancestors, or Koreans who move a parent or grandparent’s grave after a string of bad luck, convinced that ancestors are still out there, hovering about and influencing things.
To admit your grandfather is a criminal is to admit you are a criminal and your children and so forth will be criminals. Really. In the west we are so steeped in personal responsiblity that it is hard for us to admit and understand this deeply held alternative view could exist, but it does.
This is why Japan has paid reparations in a round-about way, in aid for China and the 65 normalization treaty payment for Korea. They have tried to apologize the European way, but the Chinese and Koreans are having none of it - they don’t even know what they want themselves, except that they want to see Japan below their boot and all Japan’s assets transfered to them.
Whew, windy! Well, that is my slighty-disorganized take on East Asian sociology today….
Good points, Hugh. The past never seems to fade away in NE Asia.
I don’t know who is claiming that the USA hasn’t ‘apologized’ for slavery, but I can’t believe anyone who’s been to America can claim that. How about Affirmative Action? How about the fact the a public history education in America (in the South, at least) is essentially a 12 year apology for slavery and racism in America. Do you honestly think that America ‘doesn’t deal’ with its past, and, if so, may I ask: when was the last time you were there?
Some people point out that the people of Taiwan view Japan much more positively than both Koreas or mainland China, while mainland China and both Koreas view Japan very negatively overall. I just learned by conversing with a mainland Chinese that Chiang Kai Shek is hated for many reasons, but one reason is that…
He chose to fight the mainland Chinese communist rather than the Japanese on many occasions.
Add that to the fact that Chiang was trained in Japan and he had formal ties and equipment and technology and engineers going back and forth between them for a brief time, and it seems like Chiang Kai Shek’s govt was much more formally active with the Axis powers than Korea was. At least Korea lacked the formal status to be courted by Nazi Germany. Chiang had the status as the “ruler” of China. Before Japan took over the good parts of it.
I don’t see why it’s very difficult to see why Taiwan thinks better of Japan.
But, Japan did apologize a lot.
But, you must ask why Korea and mainland China don’t think much of it.
You must also ask why Europeans don’t blame Germany as much for all their problems.
formal ties, equipment, and technology, and engineers going back and forth with the Third Reich.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Wei-Kuo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.....11-1941%29
A clarification.
I do accept the idea that Korea would have done the same if it was courted. In fact, President Park Chung Hee was a infamous Japanese military officer who was described as being more Japanese than a real Japanese.
I did not mention imperialism, only war. And I did not say war was not accepted, only that it was considered bad. Which I believe is accurate. Colontos’ first point, in comment No. 4, is good, too.
But my bigger point was about the passage from memory into history. Once the move is made, debate becomes more academic than personal, even if the effects linger on to the present.
I think Korea and China need their own versions of HOGAN’S HEROES. (At least Korea has PONG).
now, especially since the witch hunt for pro-Japanese family histories during the Uri era,
there are South Koreans who are coming out on internet message boards saying things like,
1. What was so bad about Japanese occupation? It was n’t that bad.
2. Korea should seek to ally itself with the Japanese and counter the emerging giant mainland China, by technological superiority.
3. Some go on to say, Korea should form something like a E.U. with Japan.
4. Many of these types say, Korea has more in common with Japan than China, and more in common with Japan than pretty much any country in the world.
So, I only conclude that life wasn’t that bad for some Koreans under Japanese rule, and in fact it may have been very good. Which is very documentable for elites. Taiwan’s good feelings towards Japan is not a reflection of how good natured Japan was during the Japanese Empire era. It has more to do with life being good under collaboration.
In fact, I am quite confident that most South Koreans are shocked to know that Chiang Kai Shek cooperated with the Third Reich.
Ask anyone. They won’t know a thing.
Simply because, it was better to paint Chiang as the ally of the Korean exile govt in Shang Hai, and an enemy of the Japanese Empire, not in any way a collaborator for any period of time with either Japan or Germany, however brief it was.
What is interesting is that, most mainland Chinese people know this very well.
Which fascinates me, too.
And it further points out the fact that history is taught quite selectively, wherever you go.
Conlonus,
Japan forced the end of the Korean slavery system in the 1890s, and I think you would have a hard time proving that the Japanese treated Koreans worse than Americans treated blacks up until the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s and ’70s.
Time in Korea has taught me to start looking at the evidence myself, instead of just blindly accepting what Koreans tell me.
After Korea was liberated, it was the policy of the new Korean government to brainwash Koreans into hating the Japanese, and they were very successful at it. You need to take what you hear about Japan in Korea with a big grain of salt.
By the way, I am curious to know just how much experience you have living in Korea?
Correction: My above post was meant to be addressed to “Colontos.”
I think one could go a step further and say that the Japanese treated Koreans, including the 1910-1919 military rule, better than Koreans treated Korean nobi throughout the Choseon dynasty. The most salient difference is that the strict rule that the nobi would have been used to and would have accepted without complaint was now directed towards other elements of society, more evenly so. So, middle and upper class Koreans ultimately didn’t like being treated by the Japanese like they had treated their own people for centuries…imagine that. Whether they ever figure out that lesson of history will have great bearing on how South Koreans may one day treat liberated North Koreans; I don’t have much optimism in that regard but its never too late to get the history straight.
Haisan. My understanding of history suggests that the great majority of countries did not consider war itself as “bad’. It was “bad” if you lost one. Interesting point in the referenced article on “all the nations” involved in salvery offering an apology”. Perhaps we can expect a plethora of apologies from the majority of African states south of the Sahara for having sold the losers in their wars to the likes of the Arabs, Europeans, Americans, etc. Didn’t some country in West Africa (Mauritania?) recently promise to abolish slavery, and then back off? But, I’m sure some Noah Chomsky out there can explain to us that only European or White slavery was bad, and that other forms were more gentle.
“Noam” Chomsky. but your point is quite correct. Slavery continues in its traditional chattel forms in much of northwest Africa. And its more modern forms (debt bondage, human trafficking, etc) all over the world, more or less. Our efforts should be focused on eradicating it in the present and future, not on pointless apologizing for what our grandfather’s grandfather’s grandfathers might have done.
And i second what Hugh said above, great post.
colontos,
In “Korea and Her Neighbors (1897)” by Isabella Bird, she writes of the reformations Japan forced on Korea. “Agreements with China cancelled. Distinctions between Patrician and Plebeian abolished. Slavery abolisehd. Remarriages of widows permitted. Bribery to be strictly forbidden. No one to be arrested without warrant for civil offences. Couriers, mountebanks, and butchers no longer to be under degradation. Local Councils of Police to be established. New coinage issued. Organization of Police Force. No one to be punished without trial. Irregular taxation by Provincial Government forbidden. Extortion of money by officials forbidden. Family of a criminal not to be involved in his doom. Great modifications as to torture, Superfluous Paraphernalia abolished. Schools of Instruciton in Vaccination. Hair-croppping Proclamation. Solar calendar adopted. “Drilled Troops (kun-ren-tai)abolished. Legal punishement defined. Slaughter Houses licensed. Committee of Leagal Revision appointed. Telegraph Regulations. Postal Regulations. Railway placed under Bureau of Communications. These ordinances are a selection from among several hundred promulgated since July, 1894.”
“Much had been done in the way of prison reform. [snip] Torture is at least nominally abolished, and brutal exposures of severed heads and headless trunks, and beating and slicing to death, were made an end to during the ascendancy of Japan. After an afternoon in the prison of Seoul, I could hardly believe it possible that only two years before I had seen several human heads hanging from tripod stands and lying on the ground in the throng of a business street, and headless bodies lying in their blood on the road outside the East Gate.”
I second Mr. Chips. The average Korean was treated much better by the Japanese than during the Chosun era. Ms. Bird also repeatedly writes that yanbans were vampires and Korea only consists of the Robber and the Robbed. I am sure that the people robbed might acuatlly have preferred Japanese occupation, though I am also sure that they would have preferred better conditions under their own people’s rule. however, just as Nissan needed a foreign CEO to turn it around, sometimes, I think reforms had to be made from the outside when resistance in the inside is too strong. Many Koreans, especially the young ones, wanted their coutnry to modernize, but the people in power with their seasoned wiles in court were just too much for them. If nothing forced by the outside can be good, then the world should just leave the North Korean people in their miserable states until somebody up north can get up the courage to execute a coup and transform the own country. I’m sure some of the reformations Ms. Bird listed would be carried out in NK once it is under UN charge.
The means to victory in wars of the past are far too unpleasant to consider nowadays, which is precisely why wars will no longer be won.
Haisan,
I would strenuously disagree with you that wars were considered “bad” by “most people, at most times.”
True, these things are hard, if not impossible, to quantify with mathematical precision. But as a matter of intellectual history, the “Homeric” ethic that glorified military glory as the summit of human achievement was dominant and not broken until the advent of capitalism and the emergence of the bougeois ethic (Albert O. Hirschmann’s The Passions and the Interests is the classic on the topic, though I do not agree with many of his tangential arguments)–though challenged powerfully by Christianity before capitalism. Nor would I say, in spite of the chorus of “West is evil” multiculturalists, the warlike ethic was dominant only the West. Consider the Persians, the Mongols, and even, in the context of Korea, the Koguryoans.
Of course, you may modify your position and say that by “people,” you meant commoners, the scum of the earth. But the commoners, in pre-democratic eros, had no voice. That is, they did not set the ethos or the horizon that animated their own societies.
I meant “pre-democratic eras,” not “eros.”
And yes, I consider the slip quite possibly “Freudian.”
Re: gbevers and TwoCents
First, I lived in Korea for about two years, and have been married to a Korean for about 4.
Second, the points you two made don’t matter, at all. I am not interested in arguing about whether or not Koreans benefitted from colonial rule, or whether Japanese forced labor was more or less humane than slavery/segregation in America. That’s not what we’re talking about.
We are talking about how country’s deal with their past. My statement was that the USA has dealt with its past of slavery and segregation in a much more comprehensive manner than the Japanese. If you would like to respond to what I actually said instead of knocking down your adorable little straw men, feel free.
The one point that was almost on-topic was that the Japanese ‘abolished’ the Korean slavery system. This is an obfuscation. To claim that they did so out of any conviction that it was wrong is ridiculous. The Korean system put some Koreans on a level above others. The Japanese preferred to put all Koreans down except the collaborators. The Japanese took away one system of slavery in order to institute their own, that’s all. It doesn’t matter which was ‘nicer.’
Even so, you’re still comparing apples and oranges here. While the US may arguably have done a lot to make up for its history of slavery and segregation (I say arguably because I’m not entirely convinced that it has), it’s done far less to acknowledge and make up for its own colonial and imperialist history. After all, who in American public schools gets to know much about the real extent of American involvement in places like Hawaii in the 19th century (which bears some striking similarities to the occupation of Korea)? What about ‘manifest destiny’ and the conquest of the American West?
Japan abolished slavery in Korea. I pretty much know that this is untrue.
Yangban families that I personally know of who were living in Korea during the occupation still kept their servants. And treated them pretty much the same way. Yangban children were addressed by nobi men in their 40s, 50’s as the equivalent of masters in English terms, and Yangban children addressed these men as if they were younger than themselves.
Colontos of comment #22 has it right on.
to pin your personal life crusade on proving that a country lies about its history is stupid in my opinion. Interesting, but stupid.
Why?
Because pretty much every country is guilty of doing it.
Winners of wars have traditionally dictated what is written in history books. There is that inherent bias right there.
Every nation will present its own version of key events in history. There is another bias right there.
Even if there are no lies, a selective history education will accomplish the same.
Where did western medicine and surgery orignate from? The white people of Europe?
A middle eastern person will claim that they had street lights while the white men of Europe were painting each other blue, and the middle east was practicing surgery before the whites ever thought of it.
I wouldn’t call this person from the middle east I talked with a “lier”. He is responding the best way that he was educated in. And it could be the truth.
Calling educated people who are proud of their national histories “liers” is offensive and insensitive.
street lights fed by oil, I might add.
I can tell you that manifest destiny and the conquest of the West are dealt with extensively, and in a way that portrays the white settlers in a very negative light. I remember learning about the conquest of the Native Americans in public elementary school (this was late 80’s-early 90’s). The colonial period of Hawaii and other places recieves less attention, you’re right. But what American textbooks and curricula do not do is this: imply (or outright state) that these colonial adventures were positive experiences for the indiginous populations, or attempt to claim that historical events did not happen.
I’m not siding with the Koreans on this, believe me. Koreans textbooks are just as bad as Japanese ones, but the Koreans get off easier since they were typically the ‘victims,’ in the last 150 years at least. I’m siding with people who think countries ought to be honest about their history. The USA, on the whole, is. I really challenge anyone to defy that statement. Curricula may not place as much emphasis on colonialism as we Asia-watchers think they should, but they don’t deny anything either.
“…the Japanese ‘abolished’ the Korean slavery system. This is an obfuscation. To claim that they did so out of any conviction that it was wrong is ridiculous. ” Though no one said “abolished slavery” - gbevers said “forced an end to the slavery system” which is true. Nevertheless, claiming that as an obfuscation is one in itself. Even Britain in the wake of its utilitarian rise and the quaker revivals ultimately only effected a change in attitude towards slavery because it began to make financial sense.
Someone said that it doesn’t matter which was “nicer.” I strongly disagree with this sentiment and say that it most certainly does matter when designing a curriculum in which you teach your students from grammar school on that Korea, pre-1910, was a utopian society full of bliss and loving, beneficent rulers, and Japan came in screwed it all up, monsters that they were. Saying that every country has lies regarding its history is not enough and even furthers the problem. It matters when there is a complete lack of introspection. It matters when there is no room for debate, to question in the schools what you are taught. It’s not offensive or insensitive to demand that there be room for letting the truth out, that someone isn’t castigated for not believing the “lies” that “liArs” of history tell. And the truth is that the colonial period and Japanese actions were not as Korean schools teach their students; that needs to change and does affect the situation of Koreans today. And, I wouldn’t call anyone educated who gets offended by debate…
‘the japanese brought modernization to korea and thus, the japanese brutalizing koreans was ok. why, they brought medicine, got rid of slavery, blah, blah, blah…’ mr chips and two cents
yes, you forgot to mention destruction of korean culture, forcing koreans to take japanese names, assassinting the queen, forcing their language onto koreans, plundering korea’s cultutral heritage, making korean palaces into zoos, and setting up korea’s sex industry.
lastly, korea was already modernizing when your people came crashing through, misters chips and two cents. see ‘popular gusts of feeling’ for a well researched look into korea’s modernizatin efforts prior to the japanese. oh, btw, as an added bonus, the guy at popular gusts once again aims his sights on how the bigot(matt/shakuhachi) at occidentaloon.org plays fast and loose with the truth when it suits his purpose. a very good read.
“the japanese brought modernization to korea” - a LIE - no one on this post ever broached that issue.
“brutalizing Koreans was ok” - another LIE - no one on this post insinuated that. Just because the Japanese did some very bad things doesn’t mean the entire history of Koreans brutalizing other Koreans can be ignored, which was the only manner in which that issue was brought up.
“the destruction of Korean culture” - a deceitful statement - Koreans today through their own “historiographical” imaginations have are destroying their own culture. I doubt any historians in Korea understand Silla, Koryo, or even Choseon culture near the degree that historians in other countries view their own past precisely because of the reason I said: there is a lack of introspection and a lack of room for debate.
“forcing Koreans to take Japanese names” - another LIE - part of that whole integrity in historiography thing.
“assassinating the queen” - and? I suppose the Koreans who assassinated other Koreans can be ignored then.
“forcing their language on the Koreans” - another LIE
“plundering Korea’s cultural heritage” - whiskey tango - I don’t think that actually means anything; try a different phrase, one that works in English.
“making Korean palaces into zoos” - foxtrot - you may want to take a trip over to a zoo in Korea now if you’re actually concerned about zoos.
“setting up Korea’s sex industry” - OMFG - that’s the LIE that takes the cake. That’s one industry that was already fully modernized in that puritanical society of Choseon. There correction in historiography always starts with YOU!! That goes for everyone…
as for “came crashing through,” just wait…you’ve got some more crashing through to witness.
Colontos,
I do not consider “two years” in Korea to be a “long time,” so I do not think you can use your experience in Korea as a basis for claiming that people are “dismissing any argument against Japan” only because it is “the Koreans who are making it.”
You make unsupported claims against Japan and then call it a “straw-man” argument when people challenge you on those claims? You even presume to know the motivations for Japan’s forcing the end of Korea’s slave system, again without any evidence to support your presumption.
As for Koreans being “exploited” during the colonial period, I wish someone would do a comparative study between how Koreans were treated by the Japanese from 1910 to 1945 and how blacks were treated by American whites during the same period. I think it would be quite interesting.
Korea’s first president, Syngman Rhee, was extremely anti-Japanese and made it a national policy to teach Koreans to hate the Japanese along with the Communists. Hanging on the walls of Korean classrooms of that time was the motto, “반일, 반공,” which means “Anti-Japanese, Anti-Communists.”
My question is this: If Koreans were so exploited during Korea’s colonial period, why did Syngman Rhee feel that he had to teach Koreans to hate the Japanese?
Wjk,
The Japanese did abolish slavery in Korea, but that does not mean that there were not some families who illegally kept their slaves or whose slaves stayed with them because they had no other place to go. Even my Korean mother-in-law once told me that she remembered playing with her family’s slave when she was a little girl, and my mother-in-law is only somewhere between eight-five and ninety years old.
Eliminating slave mentality from a society is not something that happens overnight. In fact, it took the United States about 100 years to do it, and some Americans may even say that the job is still unfinished.
By the way, which of Colontos’ comments is “right on”?
‘LIES, PAWI! ALL LIES!’ mr chips
yeah, simply saying something is a lie doesn’t make it a lie, my boy. all the things i wrote are true.
‘nobody on this post broached the subject of japan modernizing korea.’ chips
that’s not true. you did in post 18.
i forgot:
‘the biggest lie of them all! korea already had mass sex industry!’ mr chips
well, dr lankov says the japanese introduced mass sex industry to korea. you argue with him, ok?
Ah, Gerry. I thought I might get you talking.
It doesn’t matter to me what you consider a long time. Don’t remember asking you, and besides, has nothing to do with my argument. It’s what we like to call an ‘ad hominem,’ and a poorly attempted one at that.
Where did I make ‘unsupported claims’ against Japan? And where did you ‘challenge those claims?’ You didn’t challenge anything I said. You merely busied yourself with justifying the Japanese occupation to suit your own Japanophilia. Like I said, the severity of the Japanese occupation is not the issue on this thread. The issue is dealing with that past. Now, maybe you want to claim that Japan doesn’t need to deal with it, since it was 100% positive. You can claim that, but you won’t get much respect from me or anyone else.
Well, Gerry, why don’t you educate us as to the motivations? Surely you don’t claim that it was altruism? The Japanese knocked down the Korean system in order to institute their own. If you want to claim they abolished Korean slavery because of altruism or because it was ‘the right thing to do,’ then I believe the burden of proof rests squarely on your Japanophilic shoulders.
I don’t need to respond to your other points because, as usual, they are entirely off topic. Was the Japanese occupation more or less harsh than segregation in America? Doesn’t matter. Do Koreans teach hatred of the Japanese to their children? Yeah, they do, but so what? The issue is how Japan deals with its past in comparison to the West. TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE, GERRY.
“LIES, PAWI! ALL LIES” since you never quote anyone accurately I’ll say that and you can grandfather it back to get at least one right. That’s right, everything you said is a lie and stems from the lack of integrity in Korean historiography. Perverting the truth for sensationalism will not accomplish any good, not that you’re interested in good. I don’t expect pathological liars to care much for the truth nor recognize it when it repeatedly bitchslaps them.
But I guess it’s not enough that you lie, you refuse to read also. Post 18 was not written by me and my original statement that the issue of “Japan modernizing Korea” wasn’t broached in this post is correct. If you cared enough about the truth you might properly read what was written. Playing with semantics won’t make anything you said true.
And what a way to bow out with no integrity -attribute something to a third party (completely out of context to boot) and expect that a debate be carried out there.
Meanwhile, my original point… was that if the Korean educational system can’t deal with their past concerning slavery and are only fixated on “what those dirty Japanese did” they will never root out their current acceptance of subordinating members of society to demeaning social roles. That happens in every society but most societies acknowledge it and are dealing with it. That’s not happening here and it will present itself in a very real manner in any eventual reunification. Better that the North Korean people get a new government that ISN’T united with the south than to move from KJI to tools of the Southern elitists. Thanks to people like Pawi.
what i wrote in my original post is comman knowledge, mr chips. saying they’re all lies without any backup doesn’t make them lies.
‘my original point was..’
i don’t care what your original point was. you wrote a retort to my post that didn’t do anything to retort what i wrote. all you wrote is that they’re lies. why don’t you go to your japanese sources to show us that all i wrote was an absolute lie?
but, you know what, mr chips? i’m going to address your concern:
‘koreans can’t deal with their past about slavery.’
that’s a lie.
‘how dare you use dr lankov!’
again, you don’t address the point that it was japan that introduced the sex industry to korea.
“Comman” knowledge, as you put it pawi, means that most people here accept it as true which doesn’t make it true either, dude. It just as easily means stories that have been effectively perpetuated as truth. And btw, it’s only common in this narrow part of the world; nothing you stated is commonly “known” beyond Korea’s borders and historiographers in the west have field days when it comes to the modern recording of history in Korea - it’s a joke. As an historiographer (albeit in military history) my colleagues used to laugh at me for reading modern Korean history books saying I might as well be reading Aesop’s fables.
There’s no way on God’s green earth to refute, as opposed to “retort” which I certainly did, falsehoods like those you stated when you brought no facts to the table to begin with and no measure for their veracity. “There is no such thing as air!!!!” Well, prove it damn it!
And please trace the comments with more integrity; you obviously don’t care about the point I was making, but you didn’t care about what I actually wrote either or at least you didn’t understand it. I called LIES what you misrepresented as what others had commented on; that’s dishonest and needs no proof other than a scroll up the page. For other issues, the onus is on you to claim that the language and Japanese name issues are true. Just because urban legend claims this to have happened at some point doesn’t make it true. Show me the law, show me the change in registry, show me anything you want and I’ll show you official documents as late as 1944 written in Korean and people who openly kept their Korean names without taking Japanese names, and without repercussions. As far as Dr. Lankov’s article, I’m not going to debate an issue that you have misrepresented as somebody else’s ideas. You either misread what Dr. Lankov wrote or didn’t understand it or just willfully distorted it. Read the fucking article again yourself; all the evidence is right there.
And again, my original point, people who deny Korea’s past by highlighting Japan - people like you - make a future with North Korea a social nightmare. A couple of posts back you tried to soften your tone and say you didn’t mean to be a troll and that you only wanted to highlight expat injustices towards Korea. I didn’t believe you then and I don’t now; I think you are a horror of a human being who doesn’t give a damn about anyone else other than YOU and you enjoy ignoring your country’s history and eagerly anticipate the day when you can lord over your North Korean servants and treat them with all the disrespect that you accuse the Japanese of having treated Koreans. I don’t give a damn what you think of my “point” but I’m going to say it anyways in the hopes that someone else with a willingness and ability to change the system hears and does something about it. The lies have to stop in South Korean schools if North Koreans are ever to be treated with any respect in a unified Korea. If people refuse to acknowledge their own history of slavery and the hierarchical strictures that have continued since then, then they will not see anything wrong with stratifying North Koreans, at the bottom of the pile.
yeah, you still haven’t proven that the things i wrote were lies. provide you with proof? why? what i stated is what is accepted. do a google search and you’ll see that even western encyclopeadias state what i stated. what is there for me to prove? YOU are the one with views that run counter to the norm. thus, it is up to YOU to prove your points. telling me that they’re all lies doesn’t make it so, scotty.
‘i won’t talk about lankov’s point. you need to read his article again.’
no, i don’t because i remember what he wrote: japan created mass sex industry in korea. in fact, lankov felt the need to apologize in advance for making that statement: ‘i’m no japan basher.’
‘people who deny korea’s past by highlighting japan…’
well, it seems you are denying japan’s past by highlighting korea. man, you’re a moron.
‘your korean sources…’
don’t use korean sources; don’t trust them. always a ? when i read anything from a korean historian. feel the same about japanese sources. only trust mr white*. so sorry.
pawi’s way:
thai: we gave cambodians their writing!
cambodian: we gave thais their writing!
pawi: who’s telling the truth and who really cares? let me go see what mr white has to say since he couldn’t care less about who gave what to who… ah, the cambodians are telling the truth here.
* ‘white’ does not include ’scholars’ on japan, japanophiles, expats in korea or japan, and gerry bevers.
The norm????? What the hell does accurately reflecting what other commenters said have to do with the norm? As for Japanese language and Japanese names being required, no it is not the norm and no one outside Korea is taught that or believes it. Do you live in a box? Are you really that dense? You are every bit as bad about stifling the truth of Korean history as gbevers is about covering Japan’s. You two brothers??
Lankov clearly caviats his statements regarding prostitution to say that while the commercial, urbanized prostitution of the 1950s was a system brought by the Japanese, prostitution was not new to Korea and prostitutes were widely available and utilized by men throughout the country. That’s what I mean by telling the truth, which you did not.
“it seems you are denying japan’s past by highlighting korea. man, you’re a moron.” If that is where your reasoning abilities lead you then enjoy your psychotic life.
Forget the rest of what you said after that, it made as much sense as 5-year-old’s homework.
What the hell does “white” have to do with anything?? What racist premonition led you to believe that I’m white, or that I don’t harp on people like gbevers for being blinded japanophiles? Just ask him…
The Japanese are never taught that the Korean annexation or WWII in a positive light. Even the New Textbook that is supposed to be revisionist does not. Yet, people believe reports in the msm that it is, and believe it without confirming the contents. Once at the NAVER Korean/Japanese discussion board, a Japanese posted the section on Korean annexation in the New Textbook without saying it was so, and the Korean response was, “Now, that is a balanced textbook, which is it?” Were they surprised to learn that it was from the controversial textbook.
Japan has time and time again apologized for its past, unlike the other imperialist powers, and to my knowledge, is the only power that has paid reparitions to its former colonies instead of slapping them the tab for the modern infrastructure that was left behind. Japan does not think what we did during our imperial days was right, but that does not mean we have to accept things Japan never did as truth.
But if this is how Korea treats her scholars who have opinions that do not conform to the mob’s views, I guess they will continue to live in the world of 1984.
http://www.cbs.co.kr/nocut/show.asp?idx=374269
Sorry to break in on a heated discussion, but…
I agree with Hugh in 5.
Apologizing 21 times officially and funding many economic aids (with most of these aids not told to the public by the respective governments that it came from Japan) to China and S.Korea have gotten Japan no where with the two.
(Not to mention, S.Korea’s favorite topic regarding compensation has been dealt and closed in diplomatic writing, but they still scream about it)
Japan was and is quite dense, but I think she’s finally getting the message. Wrong tactics with these two countries.
I think a lot of Japanese envy the Germans… for the neighbors she has.
This is why I rarely visit this site these days. Too many ignorant korea bashers trying to find some excuse to bash Korea or praise japan. They let hatred rather then rationality run their emotions. Japanese people abolished slavery in Korea? Yeah right whatever. Does that explain why slavery was common in Korea and Japan even after 1910? And let me also point out that once the Japanese colonized Korea, the entire Korean peninsula became slaves to the Japanese. Forced to take Japanese names, force to learn Japanese, forced to work for the Japanese, forced to bow to the emperor, forced military draft. Koreas GDP and production went into Japanese pockets and today thousands of Korean cultural artifacts are still in Japanese museums and collections. Who cares if they built roads or factories. Do you honestly think they did this it out of a good Samaritan heart?
If Korea benefited so greatly from the Japanese then why was it that Korea was poorer then most African nations in the world even before the Korean war? Let me remind you that during the latter parts of the war the Japanese took their possessions(most of which was obtained through Korean labor), as well as Korean possessions and fled to Japan . Let me also remind you that whatever the Koreans made or produced went to the Japanese economy.
I find it incredibly stupid how people use lies or bullshit to defend japan. A couple weeks ago someone claimed that Koreans were not forced to have Japanese names which is a crock of shit. I have family members who lived through Japanese occupation and they know other people who lived through the occupation. All of them were forced to have Japanese names. Are you telling me that the Koreans who actually lived through colonization are liars? While some insecure korea basher is more believable? What excuse are some of you japan apologist going to make this time?
The logic of some of the idiots in here is mind boggling. For example whenever someone mentions Japanese colonization they make the excuse that Chosun Korea was brutal as well. Since Chosun was brutal its perfectly ok for the Japanese to be brutal to Koreans as well right? And since the Japanese were brutal to Koreans its perfectly ok for Kim Jong il to nuke Tokyo right? Its no wonder why Koreans hate morons like you.
Pawakirogi wrote:
1) “destruction of korean culture”
How did Japan destroy Korean culture? From what I have read, the Japanese seemed to appreciate it more than Koreans did, including their pottery and art. Introducing modern science and medicine to Korea was not an attempt to destroy Korean culture.
2) “forcing koreans to take japanese names”
The following is how I understand the supposedly “force-name proclamation.” Someone correct me if I am wrong.
This issue is an example of anti-Japanese Koreans making a mountain out of a molehill in an attempt to demonize the Japanese. The Japanese simply introduced the concept of “taking the husband’s family name after marriage,” as opposed to the Korean custom of the wife keeping her maiden. Even under the Japanese system, the wife’s maiden name was also recorded in the records, in deference to the Korean custom.
When the new naming system was introduced to Korea, Koreans were given the option of choosing their family name, whether it be Korean, Japanese, or whatever. If they did not choose a family name, then the family name of the head of the household (husband) was used, whether it was Japanese, Korean, or whatever. Many Koreans took the opportunity to change their family name to Japanese names, probably as a means to assimilate. They could have kept their Korean family names if they had wanted to.
The Japanese were only asking Koreans to register a family name, not a given name (first name). If Koreans wanted to also change their given name, they had to pay for the change, which probably explains why only 9.6% of Koreans living in Korea chose to also change their given name.
If the Japanese had really wanted to wipe out Korean names, then they would not have given Koreans an option to change their name or have them pay to change their given names. And they would not have included the original family names in the records.
Koreans list the name registration proclamation as an example of how the Japanese tried to wipe out Korean culture, but I think any rational person can see that that was not the case or the intent. For more information on the subject, you can look here.
3) “assassinting the queen”
Yes, a group of Japanese did assasinate the queen, with the help of Koreans, including the queen’s father-in-law. By the way, it was not the first time that the queen’s father-in-law had attempted to assasinate her. Koreans got their revenge when they assasinated one of Japan’s greatest political leaders, Ito Hirobumi.
4) “forcing their language onto koreans”
Yes, Koreans were taught the Japanese language in school, but they were also taught the Korean language for most of the period, and there were also Korean newspapers. From what I have been told, Koreans were only required to use Japanese in the classroom, not outside the classroom. How many Koreans were taught “Hangeul” before the Japanese came?
5) “plundering korea’s cultutral heritage”
Plunder is usually a part of war, and Korean cultural assets have been plundered by many people over the years, including Koreans and Americans. Are you referring to anything in particular during the colonial period?
5) “making korean palaces into zoos”
When I visited Changkyeongwon Zoo in 1882, it was packed with Koreans. If Koreans were so offended by the zoo, why did it remain popular from 1908 to 1984? Why didn’t they close it when the Japanese left in 1945?
6) “setting up korea’s sex industry”
This is the biggest lie of all, Pawi. Here is a link to a post of mine talking about how King Sejong gave orders to sent prostitutes to service his troops on the northern frontier. Korea’s sex industry was doing just fine before the Japanese came. In fact, Koreans may have introduced the concept of “comfort women” to the Japanese?
Correction: I visited Changgyeongwon Zoo in 1982, not 1882.
In the US they have black history month. They spend a lot of time in school learning about slavery. Text books contain several pages of information on slavery and teachers discuss and educate students on slavery. Furthermore it was the Americans and the British themselves who ended slavery and gave blacks citizenship. They could have continued enslaving blacks but did the opposite. The US and Britain are genuinely sorry and have shown so many many times. And then we have Japan who’s history books are so dissatisfactory and distorted that they contain little if any information on the crimes they committed. They don’t even mention how many they killed or what happened. To sum it up they just claim that bad stuff happened and that the issue shouldn’t be discussed. You also have history books that blatantly leave out colonization or the massacres they were involved in as well as large organizations of revisionist who are campaigning to remove such material and are somewhat successful in reducing the content. Tell me when was the last time that the KKK was successful in telling the US board of education what to write in history books about slavery?
In the US or Britain any politician praising slavery or making derogatory comments on blacks would be committing political suicide. He would be kicked out of his party, shamed and the media would hunt him down. In Japan a politician can praise colonization, make derogatory comments towards Koreans and Chinese and deny the Nanjing massacre and still be mayor of Tokyo.
Japan has a war shrine which contains several class A, B and C war criminals. The shrine has brochures and boards that claim that the war was the liberate Asia. This shrine claims that colonization was a good thing and makes absurd claims about how the war was justified. Its basically denial and revision. This is the moral equivalent of a museum in the US dedicated to praising slavery, praising slaveholders and claiming that blacks deserved to be slaves. Would the president of the United states and his cabinet pay homage to a museum like this and still be respected amongst the black community? Well the Japanese prime minister(Koizumi) and his cabinet has done so on a regular basis.
If any of you Korea bashers had any intelligence you would be able to distinguish the differences between western slavery and Japanese imperialism. Japanese apologies are empty. They are not sorry, their history books, politicians, war shrine tribute and denial and praise of war criminals clearly shows this.
cmc,
Can you explain why the first dictionary of Korean language for normal school was published in 1930?http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200402/200402260026.html
If they had intended to eradicate the Korean culture, they would not have allowed Korean language education in the first place.
A quote from the Joins.com article.
“we again confirm that 91 years ago we surrendered our country to the Japanese colonial government due to our hopeless ineptitude. On Aug. 29, 1910, the imperial government of Japan promulgated that it had taken over the entire government and administration of Korea, and Wednesday was the anniversary of the national humiliation. In studying this history, let us find out who chased the fish - annexation - into the net. Choson, or Korea, suggested annexation to Japan first.”
http://service.joins.com/news_.....id=1894172
A quote from the Chosun Ilbo article.
“The Korean Peninsula late in the 19th century was a battleground for imperialist powers Japan, Russia, Britain, the United States and China. Anything that happened interlocked like a cog with the international situation. That is true even for the Kabo Peasants War now being touted as if it was somehow symbolic of nationalism and class struggle because it attacked the nobility and rejected foreign influences. In fact, we now know it to have been funded by an ultra-nationalist organization in Japan. History textbooks dealing with the era must offer lessons for the future by reviewing the harsh choices we faced at the time, the way we dealt with the machinations of the great powers, and the reason we eventually lost our sovereignty.
If we instead use history textbooks as a mere vehicle for particular ideologies and rationalize the past under the headings of nation and class struggle, modern history education is capable of doing a great deal of harm. The great powers’interest in and rivalries over the Korean Peninsula continue. If we do not teach our children that tragedy struck a century ago because we failed to assess the world situation accurately, history could well repeat itself.”
http://english.chosun.com/w21d.....30027.html
At least there are some Koreans who have a lot of sense.
Actually, if YOU had any intelligence, you’d be able to distinguish the differences between Western slavery and Japanese imperialism. The Japanese have apologized some 21 times about its imperial and wartime aggression. Granted, those apologies might be of questionable sincerity, but an insincere apology is better than no apology at all. Which, by the way, is exactly how many apologies Britain has issued for the slave trade. The United States has apologized for the slave trade, but it waited until the Clinton administration to do it—sort of—and he was denounced by U.S. conservatives for doing so. And it has NOT apologized for slavery itself, as an apology would indicate responsibility (rather than teaching that slavery existed and was bad, while ignoring the question of who was responsible). And if you think that sorry state of historical reflection is bad, it’s positively stellar compared to how the West has reflected on its imperial past. And it’s imperialism that’s the better comparison, as both the West and Japan engaged in it, as opposed to the trans-Atlantic slave trade, which Japan obviously did not. As mentioned above, Japan has issued a series of apologies of debatable sincerity concerning its imperial past. The United States and Great Britain, meanwhile, have issued no apologies what-so-ever for their empires, let alone the French—who passed in 2005 a law ordering teachers to teach the “positive aspects of French imperialism” (repealed in early 2006)—or the Russians, who often seem to act as though they want their empire back.
Actually, drawing a moral equivilent between a museum glorifying a nation’s imperial past and one glorifying the trans-Atlanic slave trade is a bit silly. Most former imperial powers have museums and monuments paying tribute to imperial heros—the British were kind enough to erect one to Nelson in the heart of Dublin, Ireland which lasted until 1966 (when it was destroyed by an IRA bomb). But since you insist—wrongly—on comparing Japanese imperialism with slavery, I’ll grant you that yes, it would be tough for an American politician to visit a shrine that explicitely praises slavery and still retain respect. In that regard, I guess Mt. Vernon and Monticello don’t count, as do all the memorials to Robert E. Lee.
If the name changes were forced, how do you explain the existence of people like韓相龍 and 李埼鎔 (members of the House of Peers of Imperial Japan), 朴春琴 (members House of Representatives of Imperial Japan representing Tokyo), 洪思翊 (Lt. General of the Imperial Army), 白洪錫 (Major General of the Imperial Army), 金錫源 (Colonel of the Imperial Army), and Korean governors in the provinces of Korea such as 孫永穆 (Jeollabuk-do), 兪萬兼 (Chungcheongbuk-do, later Kangwon-to), 金大羽(Gyeongsangbuk-do), and 鄭僑源 (Chungcheongbuk-do). I mean, when you have governors retaining their Korean names, how do you convince the common people to take Japanese names? If somebody did the forcing as the Koreans claim, who were they?
Many Japanese were opposed to allowing Koreans taking on Japanese names. The reason was that they were prejudiced against the Koreans. They wanted to keep the Koreans distinguishable from the Japanese. You can’t tell a Korean with a Japanese name educated to speak Japanese apart from a “proper” Japanese. Some Japanese even claimed that the Koreans you can trust are those who chose to have Korean names.
cmc wrote
An American historian disagree.
Time to think before criticizing Japan
2005-05-05 / Knight Ridder / By Jonathan Zimmerman
Prof Bevers,
#22 of Colontos’s comment was “right on”, because I think the US dealt with its past better, and Japan did not abolish slavery in South Korea, because it felt really moral about it, they just wanted to put all Koreans down under, and the system still lived on in the real practical world.
Your suggestion that King Sejong was practicing a system of comfort women, is where you cross the line, and deserve of criticism.
I do think it’s quite intentional, too.
So, the Koreans taught the Japanese to use comfort women, eh?
Now, I know I have told you that I wouldn’t ever criticize you up to a year, but I’m not up to the highest standards, so forgive me for breaking that rule.
What I want to say here is that a lot of US men who have or are married to Korean wives, tend to vent out their frustrations with some kind of hate towards Korea. Which is understandable. I wouldn’t like my former spouse or my current spouse, especially if I had something against her. Up to 50% of American marriages have ended up in divorce. That’s a statistic, and it’s higher than Europe.
A good friend of mine is currently being forced to learn Vietnamese, and he asks me if all Asian women are jealous, and suspicious. That friend kind of worries me. Because I think he’ll someday blow up and hate all things Vietnamese.
Not to accuse you or anyone, but I’ve also heard from a former Kyopo US Army officer stationed in Seoul, that he knew of a white US Army officer married to a Korean who checked up on marmot’s blog, very frequently, taking snipes about many things Korean. He was married to a Korean and basically venting on the internet about things Korean.
I would rather see him do that than do it on occidentalism.org, which is an inferior blog. While rjkoehler’s is a blog of supreme quality.
Anyway, that’s all I want to say today.
I apologize for breaking a self imposed rule, which seems to have been broken earlier.
But, you deserve criticism.
I apologize for being crass, but I objectively conclude that Japan is sexually more open, and has been for centuries on its own, and I objectively conclude that Japan started the comfort women system and is responsible for it.
I subjectively based it, heavily subjectively, based on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_in_Japan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukake
On occidentalism, I commented that pornography in Japan always seems to have the theme of rape and the uncontesting woman.
I was shot down heavily for it.
But I think that is a true assesment.
It’s a weird culture.
Is the endogenous way of contraception in Japan, pulling out and ejaculating on the women’s face?
I apologize for the links and such, but privately I am convinced that Japanese sexual culture is kind of weird and sadistic. And thus, only such a country would have okayed the comfort women system.
No way it was from King Sejong.
I admit that it is 100% subjective.
un-consenting.
Japan also has many good parts in its culture, such as keeping public bathrooms clean, obeying the law, emulating what is good from other cultures and making something way better on their own, etc.
But I must point out that there is a tendency in Japan to glorify its past Empire and look up to fascist regimes like that of Nazi Germany. Indirectly, through, animation or film or toys. This can be suggested or proven.
Have you ever heard of Mobile Suit Gundam? It is super popular even among middle aged men in Japan and many regions of Asia.
The enemy faction is always, almost always strongly reminiscent of the German Army or Hitler’s SS.
Guess which faction has a fanatic fanbase in Japan? The enemy faction that strongly resembles the Germany Army of Hitler’s SS.
No other country dares to make up an animated comicbook/film series this way. I think there’s even a manga called “Adolf”. The Japanese creators of the series gets away with it, by clearing showing that this German-look alike faction always, always, always suffers terrible defeat in the end.
But the fandom is quite impressive. There are cafes, bars, and generations of toys dedicated to these German look-alikes. Museums, too.
My point is, I don’t think Japan learned a good lesson from World War II. Because they were sheltered after the defeat. They were sheltered to prevent the spread of communism. They seem to think very highly of fascism, romanticize about it, etc.
The Japanese make more exact toy replicas of German panzers than the Germans. Go figure.
wjk, look at following statics.
South Korea is the ONLY Asian country on the top 25 for rape stats.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap
Adult sites most favored by Koreans in Asia
http://english.donga.com/srv/s.....r=20010206
Harmful Websites in the Korean Language Rank 2nd
http://english.donga.com/srv/s.....r=20030428
Hey Robert #49 — good link about the statue of Nelson in Dublin. I’m just old enough to remember reading about that contemporaneously (in Time or Newsweek at the time, my Dad was a voracious reader of newspapers/magazines & subscribed to both, also Life/Sat Evening Post).
I wonder if anyone else will read what you wrote and immediately think of a possible future fate of the MacArthur statue Surely you didn’t mean to slyly suggest this? I note that there were efforts to “non-destructively” remove/relocate ol’ Nelson, I’d like to think that we could do the same for ol Mac (even though I know he’s strictly Korean property) before he goes up in smoke too. I like to think of us “ransoming” him as part of a general US withdrawal.
I have to admit, the more I learn about Irish history and Korean history, the more interesting the compare &contrast, though I guess some here find it tiresome.
Paul H.—Glad you like the link about the Nelson statue. It’s quite ammusing, as were some of the songs written to commemorate the occassion. Frankly, I’m shocked it lasted until 1966—it would have been like the Koreans keeping a monument to Admiral Togo in Gwanghwamun.
BTW, I wasn’t suggesting that something similar may befall the statue of Dougie Mac in Incheon. I gather most Incheon people—and most Koreans—want the statue to stay where it is, although you never know what some wack-job might do to it. Actually, I visited the statue just a couple of weeks ago, and they were doing some restoration work on it, so it would appear the authorities plan to keep the general at his post for some time to come.
genie201, In Korea, fishermen were deemed less noble than the farmer. Why?
I don’t know if it’s true, but Koreans say the majority of Japanese livlihood in past early times depended on fishing and when things got bad for fishing, pirating.
Point is, they spent a lot of time on boats. Which was good in a way, because they got to see the world, open their minds, become eventually more receptive to other cultures, and use that greatly to their advantage.
But, there is a traditional stigma in Korea for being a fisherman and especially a fisherman’s wife.
It has something to do with the fact that the man has let his wife alone for months (without any guarantee of safe return due to the nature of the job of spending time in the dangerous sea).
And yes, it has to do with sex.
But, I leave it for you to figure that out.
Giving me a link to affirm that Koreans watch porn, in retaliation, is stupid. That’s what they did, do, and will do at Occidentalism.org.
Wjk,
King Sejong had prostitutes sent to the frontlines to “service the troops.” If you do not like the term “comfort women,” then call them “service women” or create your own euphemism, but their purpose was essentially the same as Japan’s “comfort women,” except that Korea did it 500 years before the Japanese did in World War II.
That link was provided to prove false Pawikirogi’s claim that Japan was responsibly for “setting up korea’s sex industry.”
Here is what King Sejong wrote to the Governor of Hangil Province:
Prof Bevers, would you like to explain to us how those military base prostitutes are different from present day military base prostitutes found not only on US military bases on US soil, South Korean bases for South Koreans, South Korean bases for US troops, Japanese bases for US troops, and pretty much every military bases in the world?
You have no basis to say these are the same as the Japanese Empire’s comfort women.
You’re incorrigible.
Give a lecture on this at your university. They’re medical students. They should be more educated than the average citizen. They’ll love you.
I guess from both your perspective and from my persepctive, the title of this thread fits very well,
“Hard to say I’m sorry.”
Wjk,
King Sejong ordered that prostitutes be “stationed” on the frontier, just as if he were stationing soldiers there. If the prostitutes around today’s US and Korean military bases are “stationed” there by the US or Korean governments, then there would be no difference, would there?
Are the prostitutes around US and Korean military bases today stationed there by the Korean government, or do they go there on their own?
wjk,
Aren’t S. Korean whores being a problem in the U.S. currently?
And they are the 11th economic power, supposedly.
What need they of prostitution industry, unless, according to your line of reasoning, it is culturally ingrained.
well, gerry, given the choice of taking lankov’s word over yours, i’ll take lankov’s. lankov states that korea’s sex indsutry was set up by the japanese. he did, however, point out that korea had prostitution prior to the japanese but that it was the japanese who commercialized it. the japanese set up korea’s sex industry, gerry. sorry if you don’t like that. but you should be thankful, gerry; you and i know why.
‘i used to get drunk more back home but east asia has more easy whores, so i have sex more.’ expat representative
***
PAWI TEACHES THE EXPAT
let’s say you’re sick and you’re going to die. then let’s say someone comes up to you and offers you a medicine that would cure you of your illness. let’s say you decide you don’t want the medicine even though you know you’ll die without it. does the person who is offering you that medicine have a right to force you to take that medicine? what would you do if the person actully tried to force you? that’s what i thought, expat. i knew you understood. your vengeance is stronger than your abiltity to ackowledge the truth. and that, expat, is the jizz of the matter.
class dismissed.
Pawi,
You take Lankov’s word; I’ll take King Sejong’s.
I do not understand what you mean by “commercialized”? Prostitution means “sex for money,” which means it is already commercialized.
Maybe, Lankov meant “privatized”? In other words, maybe Lankov was talking about Japan’s ending Korea’s government prostitution?
sh