I was just in Kyobo Book Store leafing through the American pop best seller “America (the book)” by John Stewart. It has its funny moments, including a chapter on the rest of the world. I hope the VANK does not see the book because it has a picture similar to this representing Japan’s bullet train:
For those of you still scratching your heads, that is the next generation KTX train.
God help Time-Warner’s servers if the Netizens ever find out!
And since I have them, my photos of a real Japanese bullet train. Compare:
Finally, one of my favorite trains ever:
Note the pimpin’ hood ornament.
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18 Comments
Actually the Korean train is a copy of the French TGV, of course don’t tell the Koreans that because to the Koreans it has been designed and built with 100% Korean technology.
Personally, I think the Japanese Shinkansens are more better looking.
Maybe if the Koreans bought them instead of the TGV, they would have saved themselves a lot of money and headaches.
I liked the story recently that Korea was looking to sell its “Korean” bullet train tech to other countries–and Koreans complain that Chinese companies are copying Hyundai cars! Too funny.
The Shinkansens look like they’re doing a few hundred KPHs even when standing still.
Key to the TGV deal was that the French would hand back cultural artifacts and documents seized during a punitive raid. I think the Koreans are still waiting.
As I recall (I could be wrong on some of these points) the contract for the KTX comprised the following:
A. The KORAIL would build and operate tracks and trains for trains made by Alstrom, the builder of TGV system in France
B. As part of the contract Alstrom was suposed to licence and transfer technology to a Korean firm. This contract went to Rotem, a arm of Hyundai Heavy Industries.
C. The sytem was supposed to be in place before the World Cup, which it was not. Infact the proposed system was much diffrent than what exists today.
D. Korea would be able to export trains it made as well as any associated engineering projects.
Those diffrence in “C” include:
1. A system of tracks between Seoul and Busan, which as we know now is still not complete (Daegu to Busan link specificaly).
2. An additional provision to link Seoul to Gwangju and Mokpo, which is pretty much not even begun contstruction yet.
3. After the inter-korean summit, a provision to build between Seoul and Pyongyang, guess where that went.
4. Track constructed turned out to be substandard (contrete problems specificaly), which meant the KTX trains could not safely operate in the +300kmph range specified in the orginal contract. Korea blames Alstrom for not fullfuiling the contract, Alstrom points out that it was KORAIL’s substandard constuction and materials selection that is to blame.
5. A majority, if not all, inital KTX trains were to be made in Korea. However Rotem could not build them in time (I was told quite a story on that). Rotem proved equaly inept at assembling them from “kits”. Result all Engines are directly imported from France already assembled. (Note, the cars are pretty much Rotem made/assembled however).
6. The actual train that was to be deployed (pictured above) is slated to begin service in 2008(?). However I heard there are problems in mass producing the protype pictured above.
7. There is a rumored re-design of the protype since the the space and services aforded to passengers has proven insufficent to local demands (more space needed and better seats are the major complaints I have heard). It is unclear how this redesign, if done, will effect the current schedule.
As far as “D” goes:
7. Export sales are somewhat in doubt since the version Korea has been sold is about 10 years old and Alstrom is selling more advanced versions to other overseas clients.
8. Further making it tricky is selling in face of the above problems. Needless to say the Korean side feels cheated.
The KTX project is the symbol of everything that’s wrong with Korea.
Here is a simple history of the project;
1) When the project was initiated the simply reasoning was “It will be cool to go to Pusan from Seoul in 1 and a half hours” and “Heck, the Japanese have one. Let’s get one ourselves”. Not “Do we really need this thing?” or “Is there an enough market out there?” or “Can ordinary people afford the tickets?” etc.
2) One of the conditions for selecting a vendor was the technology transfer conditions. Reason being the Korean government thought that they can jump start a Korean high-speed rail industry and make big bucks to boot. Of course someone forgot to mention that compared to ordinary rail cars only a handful of countries can afford high-speed rail cars and that they will be competing against well-established French, German, and Japanese firms.
3) The reason the French were chosen was because the price was OK, that the technology transfer terms were generous, and last but not least the French were promising that all historical material taken from Korea will be returned. Former French President Mitterand gave Y.S. Kim one book and promised more if Korea bought the TGV.
Well Korea bought the TGV, but the head of the Bibilique Nationale said “Over my dead body!” in regards to the books and the French said “Sorry”.
A note of interest, the French tried the historical material tactic again when they tried to sell the Rafale, but the Koreans didn’t fall for it.
The lowest bidder was the Shinkansen, but the Korean government rejected it saying that the technology level of the Shinkansen was “primitive” compared to the French and the German trains.
Now I don’t know about the others, but an objective of a train is to get people from Point A to B in comfort. Obviously the Shinkansen is very good at doing that and sometimes simplicity is the answer, because it means less headaches when you are owning and operating something. Also, considering that it’s the lowest bidder, it sure looks like a good deal.
4) The Korean government contracted Korean construction companies to build the tracks. But those companies had no idea on how to build high-speed tracks. Not surprisingly they screwed up mightly and the Korean government had to bring in Bechtel to straighten everything out.
5) The KTX has finally started running, but as you all know it has a tendency to break down often and with the exception of Chusok and Lunar New Year the trains are only half-full. On top of that it is loosing money, because the Korean government artificially set the price so low in order to make it afordable. And still some people are complaining that it is too expensive!!!
Of course, Koreans are shocked that the French screwed them over.
A bad way of learning a lesson.
Dram_man, c’mon, the insider stories are the juiciest ones. What’s the tale?
Related to the KTX, anyone remember the freaky initial cost estimate when they announced the KTX back in the 90s? They just came up with a figure that reflected a 30% higher cost than that of a building regular track system. Pulled the number out of their ass. No basis for the figure whatsoever. Anyway, in spite of the unfinished Daegu - Busan section and the yet-to-be completed Jeolla-do line, it is fun to ride, and very cheap when compared to other high-speed systems around the world.
VANK (WANK?) is best ignored. Don’t remember them correcting Korean assertions on their failure to recognize the Italians having a high-speed rail system prior to Korea, as it meant that Korea was bumped from sixth to seventh (or some other insignificant dick-measuring stat) in terms of countries having implemented the technology first.
“I liked the story recently that Korea was looking to sell its “Korean” bullet train tech to other countries–and Koreans complain that Chinese companies are copying Hyundai cars! Too funny”
Well the difference is the KTX is licensed (paid fair and square) technology through tech transfer agreement, while Chinese companies copying Hyundai cars are not.
Not to start tossing stereotypes around, but Koreans are some of the biggest skinflints I’ve ever met. Fifty bucks to travel a few hundred kilometers in a few hours seems like a good price to me.
But I always take first class on the KTX.
That’s just how I roll.
cm, what about the resemblance between Samsung cars and Nissans, the similarities between Hyundais and Volkswagens/Audis, and Kia and Ford/Honda/Ranger Rovers/Mercedes Benz? Manufacturers, including Korean ones, are often ‘inspired’ by other makers’s cars.
I think the shot of the Japanese bullet train is a bit misleading due to the angle in which it was taken. The train in the picture appears to be the 800 series. A reference photo is available at wikipedia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi.....terior.jpg
Speaking of bullet trains of the orient, China last year introduced their own bullet train, though I’m not sure if it is actually in service yet. I heard some rumour about the shinkansen being chosen instead of the domestic because the technology behind the domestic model wasn’t mature yet. Not sure if it’s true or not. Anyways its basic design is quite similar to the 800 series with a blend of the 700 series “bill”.
http://www.davidwei.com/chinastar/image05.jpg
Jing> I took the photo myself actualy, its the angle from the platform. The train specificaly is the Shinkasen that runs from Kagoshima to (theoretical) Fukuoka. The track is only halfway built for now so there is a non-shinkasen runing half way.
I did here the Chinese chose the Japanese as well, unsure of the exact model. Ironicaly I saw the first engines being shipped on NHK since I was in Japan they were loaded on the boat. It was about the same time as I took the above pictures.
BTW, it’s Alstom, no ‘r’ – used to be Alsthom. But who cares about a stray consonant anyway
This, despite my natural tendency to point out Korea’s quirks and misbehaviours, is factually untrue. A copy would mean they built a, say, TGB instead of TGV, like they make Luis Bittong and would like us to belive it’s Louis Vuitton. Not so here. It’s not a copy, it’s a hand-me-down [end of 20th Century tech] they paid dearly for. Every cent of it. And let’s not forget the stint in prison Mrs Cariou, the [Korean] wife of the then general manager of Alstom Korea, did for handing over the bribe[s]. This affair is filthy at every corner, and, as another commentor said, exemplary in what is fubared in Korea.
The latest TGV are very nice, capable of [almost] flying at 300 MILES per hour [although service on Marseille, the fastest line, is "only" around 200 mph]. The line to where I live is 2/3 high-speed only, and with the head start we had on Korea, this line won’t be completed until 2010…
re: #12
SM and Nissans would unsurprisingly look similar.
The company in Korea is 르노삼성자동차
르노 == renault (르노삼성자동차 CEO is pink, not yellow)
and there is the renault-nissan alliance (renault has a 44.4% stake in nissan and nissan has ownership of 15% of renault) with the famous carlos ghosn at the helm
SomeguyinKorea:
hate is, I guess, OK
as long as it is informed
Leo, the fact a company has a stake in another still makes these two company seperate entities. I was merely pointing out that when it comes to the auto industry, including the Korean auto industry, ‘emulating’ others’ designs appears to be the norm.
Ah, the ever-elusive dream of becoming a world player as the result of tech transfer. Northrop’s F-5 was going to boost Korea’s fledgling aerospace industry to world levels back in the early 80s. Still, in the 2000s they can’t build anything worthy without having their hand held by Lockheed or Eurocopter. I don’t see it being any different in the railroad business.