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Mike Breen on Korean war criminal commission

In the Korea Times, Mike Breen takes the Truth Commission on Forced Mobilization under the Japanese Imperialism to task for its recent absolving of 83 convicted Korean Class B and Class C war criminals. Read it in its entirety; this is just a sample:

They [the war criminals] were not tried as soldiers or POW camp guards who had done their jobs. They were tried for over-zealousness, for decisions and actions over and above the call of duty. They were the thugs, the brutes, the monsters, the most horrible of the “horrible people” my father’s friend knew. By what authority does the Truth Commission have to remove their individual responsibility with its class act defense of nationality? Such skewed morality led to the crimes against the lowest class _ “prisoners” _ in the first place. People who committed crimes against humanity are not innocent by virtue of being Korean any more than Japanese who brutalized Koreans are innocent by virtue of being Japanese.

Meanwhile, the Oranckay notes something about this whole episode that is probably very pertinent:

What annoys me is that one hears sympathy for men who would be called collaborators if they had been working in prisons that held fellow Koreans during colonial rule. Their prisoners were (largely) white, however, so they are afforded as much understanding as possible. And they get to be called “victims.”

My sentiments exactly. Had those men done what they did as guards at, say, Seodaemun Prison rather than the South Pacific or Southeast Asia, I doubt very much that a governmental commission would sympathize with the “double pain” they’d been forced to bear.

About the author: Just the administrator of this humble blog.

  • seouldout

    Breen -

    The solution to this dilemma is to accept the notion of individual responsibility.

    Thus, the dilemma will remained unsolved.

    Not a bad op-ed. This “Irish of the East” is a bit worn and tiresome, and likely insulting to the Irish. More like the Scots of the East, me thinks.

  • http://www.imbermedia.net/ Darin

    What gets me the most is this comes after seizing assets of decedents of ‘pro-Japanese’ Koreans. With such contradictions, nothing can be taken for face value that spews out of the government’s mouth, because of the clear ‘non-sensical-ness’. It should be more obvious then ever now that it’s not an issue of what’s right and wrong, but an issue of what being Japanese means when you look through the prism of right and wrong.

    Hopefully the next government will undo both of these decisions and apply standard right is right, wrong is wrong logic.

  • tomojiro

    “Koreans were Japanese citizens, and it did not occur to many to support the allies against their own country. Ask anyone who lived in that period, and they will tell you that the political correctness of the post-colonial generation is distorted.

    They will also tell you that from 1937-42, Koreans in the Japanese army were volunteers _ who included King Kojong’s son, an army general _ and that large-scale forced conscription only started in 1944. The Commission should know that those rounding up comfort women were Koreans and those torturing people in police stations were mostly Koreans. Koreans, in other words, were more “horrible’’ to Koreans in many cases than the Japanese were. ”

    This part is especially important if we want seek the truth what happened in Korea under the Japanese rule and if we want to consider what colonialism is.

    It is a true must read article.

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    Oranckay’s point is a damn good one.

  • http://www.tomcoyner.com TomCoyner

    Mike Breen should be commended for getting this kind of issue out for discussion. I, too, have my own personal tale regarding this sordid matter.

    While I was still in Peace Corps, I proposed marriage to the same nice lady who is (unbelievably) still my wife. Right after making the marital offer, I took off on a trip to the Philippines with a Peace Corps buddy who was still uncommitted. In the typical playful banter of the Filipinos, we two young men were often teased as to our availability. My buddy was in one of the better locations of the world to proclaim that he was “still negotiable,” whereas I was pretty happy about just popping the question and getting a positive answer.

    When the Filipinos discovered that I was marrying a Korean, a couple of times they recoiled in horror, asking why would I want to do that? I soon learned that the Korean jailers were infamous for their sadistic treatment of Filipinos during the Japanese occupation of the Philippines. And at least as late as the mid 1970′s, that horrible image of Koreans remained with many Filipinos. As much as they detested the Japanese, many Filipinos hated the Koreans even more for their sadism and unnecessary cruelty.

    Mike’s explanation for the Korean behavior is what I guessed some 30 years ago. It’s interesting to read some validation of my old assumption.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    I would really love to know how many of the real victims (Americans, Brits, Canadians, Aussies, Philippinos, etc. ) were consulted.

  • kpmsprtd

    If you want to see Seodaemun Prison, you could simply go there, but that would be too easy. Instead, go to Pongwon Temple behind Yonsei University and climb up to the top of Ahn-san. You can see the prison very well from there. And an evil-looking place it still is after all these years.

  • pawikirogi

    ‘most of the victims were white so they are afforded as much understanding as possible.’

    yes, and? do you remember my lai? very few soldiers were prosecuted. when those who were, were found guilty, they were later pardoned by nixon with widespread support throughout the nation. do you remember that? i do. i thought it was wrong and racist. since all of the victims were asian, the perpatrators were afforded as much understanding as posible. you understand, don’t you?

    you want koreans to show respect for those who were brutalized by koreans soldiers but quite a few of you won’t show any respect for the feelings of koreans regarding yasukuni. don’t bother telling me that i don’t understand the point because i do. the korean action is at least, on the surface, contradictory in light of their vocal opposition to the japanese pm paying respect to class a war criminals. however, i won’t consider your concern until you apply the same standards to japan and their war shrine. you contradict yourself by not supporting the koreans. yasukuni came first. it showed your true colors.

    then, you told the koreans to shut up. then, you told the koreans to get over the past. then, you told koreans that japan’s been peaceful. now, the tables are turned. now, you say the same things that koreans were saying then. thus, this korean would like to say:

    shut up! get over the past! korea’s been peaceful!

    doesn’t feel good, does it?

  • http://www.icebergkorea.com Iceberg

    Pawi,

    Seriously. Come to Seoul. Free hugs. You need one in the worst way.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    pawikirogi,

    Nice try with ‘my lai’…but I’m not American.

    No doubt, visiting the ‘yakasuni’ shrine was a rather spineless move on the part of the former Japanese PM (for someone who tried hard to appear youthful, he sure liked pandering to the fantasies of aging fascists). But is seems like a minor insolence when you’ve got people that are issuing complete pardon to Korean war criminals and…gasp…relabeling them as victims of Empirial Japan.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Come on, everybody. Free hugs for Pawi!

  • Zonath

    I’d offer a free hug, but Pawi would probably miss the point (like he does with everything else) and accuse me of assault.

    i won’t consider your concern until you apply the same standards to japan and their war shrine.

    You’re absolutely right. When and if Japan ever constitutes a committee that declares Tojo & Co. innocent, I’m sure there will be just as much (if not more) outrage heard on the subject.

    And maybe Koreans are right to be pissed off at the Japanese PM’s Yasukuni visits. After all, along with the names of something like a few million Japanese soldiers who died in wars happens to be a handful of names that belonged to people who committed atrocities and were convicted of it. One begins to wonder why the Vietnamese don’t throw a shit-fit every time the American President lays a wreath at the Vietnam War Memorial. After all… at least a few of the names up on that wall must have belonged to people who committed war atrocities. How dare the US President do such a thing?

  • Two Cents

    If the whole world believed the Class-A war ciminals to have been such a bunch of evil conspirators who threatened world peace, I wonder why no countries spoke up when Mamoru Shigemitsu, a convicted and sentenced Class-A war ciminal (who was sentenced to 7 years in prison but paroled by Japan in 1951), represented Japan and addressed the General Assembly of the UN in 1956, thanking UN for admission of Japan into it and expressing “Japan’s sincere commitment to work towards the noble goals UN.” This happened before Japan got the permission from 11 countries in compliance with Article 11 of the SF treaty to release all war criminals. People should have been more appalled than now, since the wounds and memories must have been still fresh from the war.

    Zonath,
    The executed Class-A war criminals are called “the Showa Martyrs(昭和殉難者)” in Japan. (Although not all Japanese share that view, naturally.) All war criminal have been designated as having “died on duty” in 1952.

  • Breaktrack

    What does My Lai have to do with Canadian, Australian/New Zealand and British vets having crimes commited against them by inhumane Korean guards. Also, Korean soldiers were famous in Vietnam for wiping out whole villiages. Give me a break, Koreans never do anything wrong! Yeah right! I swear Koreans live in a permanent state of denial.

  • Breaktrack

    I guess I should provide at least a couple sources of what I’m talking about inregards to war crimes commited by Koreans in Vietnam so. My Lai has nothing on what the Koreans did.

    http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6332

    and

    http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/200/366/

  • Paul H.

    “…One begins to wonder why the Vietnamese don’t throw a shit-fit every time the American President lays a wreath at the Vietnam War Memorial. After all… at least a few of the names up on that wall must have belonged to people who committed war atrocities…”

    I recognize the sarcasm of course, but to take it seriously for a moment (and I’m afraid some literal-minded people might): for the analogy to hold, some of said names would have to be those actually convicted of war crimes. Made me wonder if that were possible (ie are any names on the US Vietnam war memorial actually those of convicted war criminals). I think there won’t be any — anyone who was killed in combat (or went MIA) would not have had an opportunity to be tried under US military law. And the US doesn’t do “posthumous” trials.

    The North Vietnamese threated to hold public trials of some of their captured US fliers for war crimes, especially during the early years of the war (65-68); some of those they captured surely did die in captivity and got their names on the wall (probably as MIA’s, as I think the NV covered up such deaths later as the war went on and the POW’s became a major issue). But as far as I can remember, the NV never actually did carry out any such trials, at least public ones.

    One now-infamous but stll little-known incident in WWII involved a famous US submarine commander who surfaced his sub at night, in the midst of literally thousands of Japense survivors of a sunken troop convoy (7 or so Japanese destroyers and troop transports sunk durng the day by US air attack, Battle of Bismarck Sea near New Guinea, sometime in mid-1943). He had his crew use deck gun and machine gun fire to sink all the liferafts and lifeboats they could locate (this commander was a famous one who was known for his aggressiveness). His rationale: the troops might still reach nearby New Guinea and eventually go into action against American forces.

    This particular sub commander went down with his ship while commanding another submarine later in the war, and so the incident is almost forgotten nowadays, though the story can be found commonly in more detailed US military histories of the Pacific war (also, there’s a fictionalized version of a similar incident in a famous submarine novel about WWII written in the 1950′s).

    I wonder if any of the troops/personnel who were on the sunken ships were Koreans? MIght be an interesting subject for the “Truth Commission” to investigate. Names of the ships and the Japanese troop formations should be readily availabe, and if obscure imperial Japanese archives still exist it might be possible to get names and location/origin of individuals to see if any were Korean.

    My main point (same one I was trying to make in the earlier thread): if I were a member of a Korean “Truth Commission”, I’d be less concerned with “finding blame” (or exonerating it), and more concerned with documenting “what actually happened”.

    Let the chips fall where they may, without regard to trying to make contemporary world politics fit into the framework of a distant past, where people lived and made decisions with mostly no premonition of how the future would be shaped. But maybe this perspective is a peculiarly “Western” one.

  • hoju_saram

    pawikirogi,

    I agree with you in regards to Yasukuni. I think it is wrong. I am Australian and many Australians also strongly believe the Yasukuni shrine visits are wrong. But many Australians also suffered at the hands of Koreans in WW2. Myself and many Australians also believe absolving these Koreans of their crimes is wrong.

    Surely you can seperate the issues. This is not a US versus Korea issue, its a matter of simple morality. You don’t excuse yourself or your people of a crime because someone else commited one that you consider worse.

    Let me ask you a direct yes or no question (because for all your bleating about hypocrisy I haven’t seen anything to suggest you don’t agree with the recent ruling, which places the croc tears firmly on your own face) :

    Is the Truth Commision right or wrong on its recent ruling? Yes or No?

  • slim

    Nulji’s throwing feces from his cage again.

  • dogbertt

    If nulji were truly interested in hypocrisy, he need do no more than reflect on the hypocrisy oranckay so well describes.

  • Seth Gecko

    Does anyone know if this has made big news outside of Korea?

  • http://x85130c4.spaces.live.com/ Mark

    I hereby summon the great Baduk to weigh in.

  • slim

    expat: exonerating sadistic WW2 camp guards is bad enough, but declaring them victims? WTF?

    pawi: what about hiroshima? slavery? emmett till? rodney king? oj simpson is free and writing books about his crime. charles manson still has fans. bill buckner still draws a red sox pension. you slimy expats are quick to call hypocrisy, but you are silent when a k-guy turns the tables on you.

    expat:??????

    pawi: can you deny that hitler was white and many american whites are of german descent? thought so!

  • Paul H.

    No news about this that I have seen here in US on cable TV news, and I keep a pretty close eye on the various channels.

    Only reason I know about this subject is due to the Marmot.

    Just did a search “Korean Truth Commission war crimes”, found only the Marmot on this subject. Other results returned were various but several focused on alleged US war crimes during Korean War, to include one “UN” document on US war crimes during/since Korean War.

    Sounds like a North Korean submission to the UN, then given their letterhead, but the cover page is very well-written as though by a native English speaker.

  • Jing

    Honestly, I’m beginning to think Koreans are almost identical to Japanese, except 1.5x worse in the asshattery departments across the board.

    If there were a hierarchy of national asshatishness in Asia, the Koreans would be on top. Followed by the Indians, the Chinese, and then Japanese (yes, the Japanese are as a whole lesser assholes than Chinese, sad for me to admit but true) with everyone else a distant fifth and New Zealanders last (face it, kiwis rock!)

  • slim

    How much of Chinese “asshattery” is attributable to key aspects Communist Party rule? (Bad — almost fake — newspapers and hostory books, limited free speech, cowed intellectuals, state-inspired jingoism, etc…) Taiwan certainly has its stupid politicians, but the people of the ROC cut a better figure than those of the PRC or the ROK on the whole in my experience.

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    I don’t know much about Japan.

    Did they have the kind of “untouchable” classes like the Korean confucianistic society did?

    Korea was not as segragated as India, but you did have certain hereditary professions and slaves who were treated as less than humans.

    And Korea is not alone in this, to be sure. The US has had its share of this history big time.

    But, I would imagine if we were tracing the roots of the motivation that led so many Koreans to be brutal when on duty in other parts of the Japanese Empire, we could find some roots in the class system of Korea itself.

    And if we really wanted to, we could go back and find some articles over the last couple of years (and about once or twice a year) in the Korean press itself about Koreans behaving badly in these same nations that are not cheap tourist destinations for South Koreans who are comparatively more wealthy…

  • pawikirogi

    is that all you have? i need a hug? it’s not the same thing? two different subjects? all of it means you can’t retort what i wrote.

    game, set, and match, to pawi.

    some asides:

    ‘nice try but i’m not american.’

    who gives a fruck what you are, soldout? i wasn’t addressing a foreigner like you; i was addressing my fellow americans. don’t ever address me again without my addressing you first. thanks.

    ‘did you think it’s wrong what the koreans did?’

    i think that the expat needs to get over this. only a few american soldiers were killed and brutalized by a few korean soldiers. it’s the past. you all need to move on and stop wasting your emotion on such a trivial matter. and remember, the koreans had to do what they did just like robert says japan HAD to brutalize koreans.

    ‘did japan have a permanent underclass like korea where people who did certain professions were outcasts?’ usinkorea

    yeah, they did. those people are called the ‘eta’. looked down upon for the same reasons. same reason i look down on you, usinkorea.

    ‘fruck you, pawi! fruck you!’ hugh in another thread

    more proof your average expat is a would-be fry cook. that is, when he’s not getting drunk in texas.

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    pawi,

    How dare you address me! Bastard!! Did I address you!! Bastard…

    (poor guy)

  • slim

    I rest my case on other string that pawi may be vile and dumb and rude, but he is harmless: Even the strawmen he sets up are safe from his “arguments”.

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  • michael

    I am Oz, the Great and Powerful! Who are you? WHO – ARE – YOU?

    HEY FRUCK U!

    Pawi does sound a lot like the average American if you compare him to people Jay Leno makes fun of on “Jaywalking.”

  • seouldout

    Usinkorea -

    Did they have the kind of “untouchable” classes like the Korean confucianistic society did?

    Yes, they’re called the Burakumin, and held the 3D jobs of the day; leather tanner, executioner, pawi the night soil collecter, entertainer, etc. The Burakumin were comprosed of the eta and the hinin.

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  • OhMyBlog

    If this one is still going, I’d like to step in and pick up Pawi’s point:

    “…and remember, the koreans had to do what they did just like robert says japan HAD to brutalize koreans.”

    It is possible that the Koreans were forced to be the most nasty. But I do not see the Ministry of Truth presenting any credible evidence to support this. If they could demonstrate that Korean guards acted under orders, then blame would go to their officers. But what we’re all complaining about is that they’ve been forgiven simply for being non-officer Koreans. Period. That is no more defense than, say, letting off the most thuggish of British troops in Basra because they’re Manchester United supporters. (Although that would at least show they had good judgment).

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    more proof your average expat is a would-be fry cook.

    Hey, let’s not be talking ill of fry cooks on this blog. It ain’t easy to get fries just right. Let alone onion rings.

  • colontos

    I’m glad someone finally dealt with pawi’s point. He did have one, though not a good one.

    Japan never said its war criminals were innocent. If they did, people would get just as or more angry.

    Yasukuni is an issue, obviously, but:

    Another point: everybody always talks about the Class A war criminals in Yasukuni. Class A means “crimes against peace,” which means basically starting the war. Class B is “war crimes” and C is “crimes against humanity” which both refer to atrocities. I think a lot of people think Class A criminals must be the worst, but clearly B and C are more, not less severe. So putting some Class A criminals in a shrine v. fully pardoning Class B and C criminals? No contest. The Korean action is worse.

  • seouldout

    Not to equate worshipping at a shrine to a closed-door commission’s exoneration of war criminals, but were the Class A (and B & C if you like) criminals removed from Yakasuni would the complaints from Korea stop? Japan as the boogeyman is too embedded, it is a useful target, and it serves as Korea’s choice of contrast when foreigners discuss Korea. How lucky that Korea has an “enemy” that for the most part ignores it.

  • pawikirogi

    ‘korean class c criminal worse.’ dumb expat

    really? then, why isn’t ‘crimes against humanity’ a class ‘a’ war crime rather than a class ‘c’ war crime? perhaps, ‘crimes against peace’ is a necesary ingredient in the making of ‘crimes against humanity’.

    of course, leave it to a conservative westerner to equte a couple killings with the slaughter of 30 million asians. and you call me racist?

    btw, robert, you now willing to call the japanese on their shrine? yeah, that’s what i thought.

    ***

    hey gerry, how ya doing? are you ok? is there anything i can do for you? sorry for what happened to you. it’s just a crying shame. let me know when you’ll be moving to japan so you can continue your vital research on dokto. maybe you and matt can get a room together. wouldn’t that be swell, gerry? anyway, i feel for ya, man. it’s just a crying shame, gerry. it really is.

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    of course, leave it to a conservative westerner to equte a couple killings with the slaughter of 30 million asians. and you call me racist?

    And leave it to Pawi to equate a visit to a shrine with the official clearing of convicted war criminals.

    btw, robert, you now willing to call the japanese on their shrine?

    As far as I know, the Japanese government has yet to convene a committee that has overturned the results of the Tokyo Trials. Which, the Koreans have. And frankly, Pawi, I’m surprised you haven’t expressed concern that the argumentation used in clearing some of these guys, namely, that records obtained from the British showed that they were convicted without sufficient evidence, could provide ammunition to Japanese rightwingers looking to call the entire Pacific war crimes tribunal into doubt. In fact, Sir Pawi, don’t be surprised if Japanese rightwing groups start doing exactly that—citing the Korean decision as proof of the illegitimacy of the war crimes tribunals.

  • http://www.icebergkorea.com Iceberg

    Maybe Pawi would like that hug now.

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    ” ‘crimes against peace’ is a necesary ingredient in the making of ‘crimes against humanity’.”

    aaaannnnnnnttttt…..immature wheenie….

    exhaibt A: North Korea…..

  • slim

    It may be time to post nulji’s e-mail address after all.

  • dogbertt

    don’t ever address me again without my addressing you first. thanks.

    Typical arrogant kyopo male. Revising the immigration laws surpasses the war in Vietnam as LBJ’s biggest blunder.

    I wonder why such a tough guy makes such a big deal out of people knowing his e-mail address.

    “‘mean frenchy posted my e-mail address ‘” -whined the cowardly kyopo

    ” ‘ japan bad japan bad!! pur e confucian society good! Korea nummah one! ‘” –bleated the so-called “American”

  • judge judy

    nice to see nulji’s still taking dumps on the blog. the only thing worse is performing an exegesis on said dumps.

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    I’ve got to feel superior to somebody somehow, and the best I can do is play with pawi…

  • Paul H.

    I went back to the prior thread and followed all the links I could (in English), got to this one:

    http://www.ne.jp/asahi/nadja/bc/frameHISTRYe.html#anchor717210

    It appears from this and other English lang links that all of the cases here involve postwar prosecutions in Singapore (?) by British war crimes tribunals(?) Therefore, presumably all the witness testimony against these prison camp guards would have been by UK/commonwealth POW’s (British, Australian, New Zealand, maybe Dutch POW’s).

    What I was trying to find out is whether or not there was any US involvement in the trials, either by former US POW’s from camps in that theater (SE Asia) or if US judges were involved in the tribunal. I suspect not but don’t know.

    I wonder if any of the 83 exonerated prison guards were stationed in Japan home islands (where some American POW’s were sent from the Phillippines, also of course there were some downed US airman POW’s late in the war). Were any of these guards in the Phillippines, and involved in the guarding of American POW’s there?

    If so that would be a story for the US news media. I can’t read Korean, maybe some of you who can will take a look.

    There were probably some American POW’s in SE Asia from early on in the war; the fictional William Holden character in “Bridge on the River Kwai” (lone American in a POW camp with a British battalion from the Singapore surrender) is a survivor from the US cruiser Houston.

    There was in fact such a US cruiser, it was a first line one committed to the battle for the defense of Java (Jan Feb 42? can’t remember exact dates). It was sunk by the Japanese invasion force in a famous night action, presumably there were survivors but whether any were taken prisoner by the Japanese and survived the war in a SE Asian POW camp with Commonwealth forces I would have to research.

    Also there were US Army Air Corps units committed to the defense of Java; some of them may have been shot down and captured, don’t know if all the ground components of such forces were successfully evacuated or not.

    There’s an obscure Gary Cooper movie made during wartime, about the battle for Java, entitled “The story of Dr Wassell”, I think he was a US Navy doctor ashore (?) during the battle who won Medal of Honor during the evacuation of Java. Normal wartime propaganda but when I saw it a few years ago I was deeply interested, as I had come to learn something about just how hair-raising the whole experience was. The US made a major effort to help the Dutch hold Java, but the underestimated but highly competent Japenese Imperial combined forces completely and throughly defeated it.

    Hard core Korean nationalists here ought to read up on it, perhaps take some secret (or even open) pride in any Korean ground combat portion of the Imperial accomplishment (if there was any, another interesting question for historians).

  • SomeguyinKorea

    “‘nice try but i’m not american.’

    who gives a fruck what you are, soldout? i wasn’t addressing a foreigner like you; i was addressing my fellow americans. don’t ever address me again without my addressing you first. thanks.”

    No doubt about it. You need a hug.

  • Paul H.

    Ok I see post #5 above refers to Korean “jailers” in the Phillippines and the attitudes of some Filipinos in the 1970′s towards them.

    The specific and individual details in each of the 83 cases are of interest, particularly if any of them involved clearing the name of a Korean prison-camp guard convicted by a postwar US (as opposed to Commonwealth/UK) war crimes tribunal.

    Also, in the previous thread jsg and I were discussing the matter of Imperial POW’s taken during various Pacific battles (such as battle of Tarawa); some of the general references about these battles make mention of the fact that some such POW’s were listed as “Korean”.

    http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/USMC-M-Tarawa/USMC-M-Tarawa-C.html

    This link below implies that at least some of the Korean “laborers” on Tarawa fought alongside the Japanese against the Americans:
    http://worldwar2database.com/html/tarawa.htm

    I thought I had found a link earlier, one that said the names of these Koreans who died on Tarawa are now lost to history, but if I did I’m now unable to relocate it.

    My larger point in mentioning this is to wonder if this Truth Commission is interested in researching this subject as well; if I were a proud Korean on a “truth commission”, I’d be more interested in finding a way to memorialize/exonerate those of my countrymen who had fought honorably in a lost cause, even if it’s one no longer seen as “fashionable” by modern Koreans. But maybe that’s a peculiarly western perspective.

  • colontos

    pawi:
    ‘korean class c criminal worse.’ dumb expat

    really? then, why isn’t ‘crimes against humanity’ a class ‘a’ war crime rather than a class ‘c’ war crime? perhaps, ‘crimes against peace’ is a necesary ingredient in the making of ‘crimes against humanity’.

    of course, leave it to a conservative westerner to equte a couple killings with the slaughter of 30 million asians. and you call me racist?
    ————————
    First, I’m not an expat, but thanks for playing.

    See, simple folks like pawi see the letters A, B, and C and assume that A must be worse. Not the case, though. Crimes against peace = starting a war. War crimes/crimes against humanity = the rape and massacre of civilians, abuse of POWs, etc. A necessary ingredient? Then I suppose you grant that no Japanese atrocities were ever commited in Korea, since they never fought a war. Or, a least, no atrocities until 1937 when war started. I’m sure the Japanese will be glad to hear that.

    “The slaughter of 30 million Asians.” And were most of those military casualties, or victims of atrocities? So which class is worse? Your logic is coming very close to absolving a lot of Japanese crimes as well…

  • SomeguyinKorea

    colontos, in all seriousness, Pawi’s statements do raise a very important point: the ambiguity of international law has been misused by many nations to violate the principles of the Geneva Convention. It is also said that history belongs to the winners. You don’t need to think very hard to come up with instances where nations, with the help of political and legal manoeuvering have done terrible things that have gone unpunished. Heck, a certain nation has gone as far as withdrawing from the 1998 Rome Statute to establish the International Criminal Court.

  • Two Cents

    colontos,
    I have seen many confusing the point you have pointed out. Maybe the Tribunals should have used the word “Category” instead of “Class.”

  • railwaycharm

    Is Mr Breen still a Mooney?

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    someguyinkorea,

    Please don’t offer any redemption for pawi just because his half-brained thoughts fall somewhere within a missle shot of a political/social idea you hold too.

    There is a danger rather than making a point worth considering that might also rehabilitate pawi’s image in the eyes of some who care not to carefully notice how innane, illogical, and emotional driven his drivel in this thread has been — you’ll also pull yourself even an inch closer to him.

    For example, the 1998 Rome Statute and that certain country you mention –

    following along with the other parts of what you wrote

    one could argue staying out of the International Criminal Court is a righteous act and not something to be chastised as you feel.

    Because, it is obvious that powerful nations will not be held up to that court. You don’t mention specifics, but I would give a reasonable educated guess that the instances in the past where international law has been used as a tool by the powerful and the victors (as opposed to other times when the powerful and victors were untouchable) would include the trials against the Japanese and Germans after WWII in which these Koreans were convicted.

    If those are examples of the fatal flaws of the use of international justice — then where are the examples of how it will actually work in favor of justice and not be subject to rebuke????

    We have 50 years of evidence in the United Nations that powerful countries cannot be brought to pay for their actions, I would venture to guess you would agree.

    We also have a fair number of examples of how even nations that aren’t so powerful can tell the UN to stick its thumb up its bum and sit and spin – like a Libya, North Korea, and others.

    We have seen plenty of examples where even the non-Euro-centric or Western-centric nations can ban together to make a sham out of the UN — like the Arab oil states along with other muslim nations and others who they can use their oil wealth to intice to vote with them —- doing things like putting Libya or Iraq on the Human Rights Council or even have one of those nations as the head of the council.

    In fact, in the UN, we have a democratic institution with plenty of blocks of power formed by undemocratic, corrupt, and sometimes despotic nations who do wield influence in the UN.

    Given all this, would a nation that decides not to join withthe Internatoinal Criminal Court not be saying it refuses to participate in the hypocrisy?

    Given the fact powerful nations and even determined weak nations can thwart such bodies, why would you advocate supporting them?

    Would such a body not become yet another UN Security Council – if we follow the train of thought from your comment —- would it not become another Western-centric body for the powerful nations to justify their actions against other nations – those that will not hand over people out of their society to stand trial?

    And since the United States is the nation that opted not to join the ICC — would it not tend to become just another Euro-centric means to provide the type of “counter-weight” to establish the “multi-polar” world order that they (France in particular) have been saying needs to replace the messed up situation that was created when the Cold War came to an end and the bad Americans became the lone Superpower?

    Can you convince me the ICC is not designed or will not end up just being another sham forum?

  • pawikirogi

    ‘simple people like pawi…’

    even without the classes, i can see that the people who were the architects of misery for hundreds of millions of asians are certainly of more significance than some camp guards. you trying to tell me that some korean brute was worse than tojo? are you serious? i don’t buy it. btw, are you also saying camp guards in germany were worse than the designers of the holocaust? i wouldn’t buy that either. i’ve read many books on the holocaust. i ‘ve read about sadistic camp guards. even with their behavior, i don’t put them in the same league as hitler. i’ll bet you don’t either. don’t you ever lecture me, expat.

    ‘the man who put zyclon b into the showers was worse than the man who implemented the policy and created the situation in which said soldier could pour zyclon b into showers.’ expat logic

    lastly, korea has made a mistake here and should rethink it’s decision. but not because the expat is offended, but because it might offend good americans who hold no grudge against korea or koreans. the expat is a bonafide hypocrite. his behavior is inconsistant and therefore his thoughts and feelings can be discounted. what the koreans did was wrong. would someone like marmot say yasukuni is wrong? nope. he’s telling koreans it ain’t none their business. that’s not a contradiction?

  • iwshim

    Why not take the argument to the sorce?

    http://www.gangje.go.kr/en_index.asp

    The have a message board.

    Chairman of the Commission Dr. Giho Jeon you can reach him at:

    (I will find it later. )

  • iwshim

    Why not take the argument to the source?

    http://www.gangje.go.kr/en_index.asp

    The have a message board.

    Chairman of the Commission Dr. Giho Jeon you can reach him at:

    (I will find it later. )

  • SomeguyinKorea

    usinkorea, touched a nerve, have I? “political/social idea” that I hold? Which one would that be? That diplomacy is a farce, merely a charade aimed at appeasing the good workers and consumers? I don’t seem to understand why you’re upset because you seem to be agreeing with me.

    PS. As for the examples I was thinking…

    There once was this little town that reputed to be one of the centres of art and literature in Europe, if not the world. It was noted for its beautiful churches and cathedrals, it’s art gallieries and universities. A certain French emperor, a short man by all accounts, even thought that it was such a beautiful city that he made it his base of operation about 200 years ago (needless to say, he wasn’t a particularly liked man in Europe). In any case…One day in 1945–on Valentine’s Day of all days–allied bombers changed it all. The city was burnt to the ground as fire fell from the sky out of the bowels of the bombers. 25000 unsuspecting people died in the explosions and ensuing fires. So it goes.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    was, its…

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    Not much of a nerve, and though it seems like we might be close, there seems to be a huge gulf between us.

    What I find interesting is that, on the one hand, you are terming allied bombing in WWII a war crime, I take it, since you don’t actually directly claim things, but point strongly in that direction, and in the previous post point out how the strong nations that are the victors control/manipulate/desacrate international law –

    —but at the same time – you come out — seemingly again – since you don’t seem to want to directly state positions, I guess – that the aforementioned International Law is sacrosanct.

    Is the International Criminal Court a good thing or bad? Sham or something that should be given the full weight of power as a Supreme Court would in a nation-state?

    Should Eisenhouer, Churchill, and Roosevelt have been tried as war criminals?

    You are saying this bombing on Valentine’s Day was a war crime, no? A crime against humanity? Something that should be taken up in some type of International Criminal Court, since we were on the topic international law, war crimes, and war criminals, no?

    But since the allies won the war, they were not called up on their war crimes – like this bombing – but they were able to put people like the Koreans pawi is defending to death through, what can we call them, sham trials?, I’m not sure, but surely invalidated trials, because the powers who were behind the rulings didn’t have to face trials for their own war crimes.

    And things like the International Criminal Court would work to prevent such atrocities in the future if powers like the United States would not thwart them…

    Am I in the ballpark here?

    This is the general thrust of what you have written, isn’t it?

    If I had more definative statements, it would help.

    The bombing in 1945 was a war crime, yes?

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    Also

    notice I was giving you some credit.

    I took it for granted you were not saying things like the Japanese treatment of POWs or things like the rape of Nanking or the slaughter of European Jews were not excusable because they were done as acts of war like the boming on Valentine’s Day 1945.

    I am sure you were not making anything close to that kind of argument.

    Which is why I advised not to try to redeem pawki since he is all fine and dandy with the idea the Koreans convicted of war crimes should be exonerated because they were under the control of the Japanese at the time and were Korean – like him…..

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    piss poor English on my part with the key paragraph above –

    that should be that I was taking it for granted you were not arguing those war atrocities by the Japanese and Germans were excusable because they were done as acts of war just like the 1945 bombing…..

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    “25000 unsuspecting people died in the explosions and ensuing fires. So it goes.”

    Really….

    This reminds me of a slide show a visiting Japanese teacher showed my high school class in the US. It was on the devastating effects of the atomic bombs on those two Japanese cities.

    The first slide said (via translation) how on X date “the young children of Hiroshima awoke hoping for a quick end to the war.”

    How nice………peace loving little ones.

    And the “unsuspecting” people in this European city…

    I wonder if we could use “unsuspecting” with the Brits in London during the blitz???

    Language is a curious thing in use…..

  • hoju_saram

    “lastly, korea has made a mistake here and should rethink it’s decision.”

    Congratulations pawi, you’ve moved on from a morally bankrupt cretin to something with a modicum of sense.

    “‘the man who put zyclon b into the showers was worse than the man who implemented the policy and created the situation in which said soldier could pour zyclon b into showers.’ expat logic”

    They’re both as bad as each other, one just has more power. Both should be tried and punished; neither should have the verdicts of their trials overturned to appease nationalist sentiment 50 years later.

    I might add as an afterthought here that the real loser in this fiasco is Korea, pawi. Although this has completely gone under the radar in Korea you can be sure that alot of important people outside of Korea have taken note of this and it’s sure to color their perceptions of Korea and Koreans.

    And another thing: you’ve complained about this blog being abandoned by Koreans and whinged about the anti-Korean rhetoric and hypocrasy of the posters, but you should be thankful that you’ve found a portal that is actually discussing it. Criticism is a healthy thing pawi. I don’t agree with everything the Marmot posts or comments on but I appreciate that he presents his arguments, debates them and allows a good amount of healthy too and fro from all parties on the site. Point out a Korean website in which Koreans have taken notice of the Truth Commisions findings and have disagreed with it. Show me one forum in which even a handful of Koreans have even questioned the decisions and debated them. Surely in a country of 50 million there must be a few people with the balls to put fair play ahead of nationalist sentiment.

  • pawikirogi

    ‘you’ve moved from being a cretin to…’

    really? do you think marmot is far behind?

    ‘might offend good americans….’ pawi

    you didn’t see me write ‘australiens’, did you? australiens who were killed by korean soldiers are excluded from my analysis. they don’t matter since australia does not matter. g’day, mate, any stingray on the menu?

  • http://rjkoehler.com Robert Koehler

    Pawi: Ah, here’s a hug.

  • http://www.icebergkorea.com Iceberg

    I’m starting to think a hug won’t be enough. The dude needs to get laid.

  • colontos

    i’ve read many books on the holocaust. i ‘ve read about sadistic camp guards. even with their behavior, i don’t put them in the same league as hitler. i’ll bet you don’t either. don’t you ever lecture me, expat.
    ——————–
    Aw, you read a book? That’s cute. But a lot of wars have happened in which crimes against humanity were kept to a minimum. Starting a huge war for conquest? Bad. Taking advantage of said war to get your kicks by raping, torturing, and mutilating? I’d say that’s worse. If you want to blame the war-starters for creating the situation, then why not blame Mrs. Tojo for giving birth to him, and then her mother, and so on. It’s one thing to create a situation with a possibilty for abuse. It’s quite another to take advantage of such a situation to get your rocks off. So the regular soldiers raping and looting Nanking were not that bad, eh pawi?
    —————
    ‘the man who put zyclon b into the showers was worse than the man who implemented the policy and created the situation in which said soldier could pour zyclon b into showers.’ expat logic
    —————
    Well, as someone said, they could easily be considered as equally bad, especially if the guy putting the gas in the showers VOLUNTEERED to be there and not on the front, like our Korean war criminals. And if he took a sadistic pleasure in his work, and was more cruel than he was ordered to be because he liked it, then, yeah, he was probably worse.

  • http://www.occidentalism.org shakuhachi

    I’m starting to think a hug won’t be enough. The dude needs to get laid.

    Wont happen. All the white guys got ‘his’ women.

  • SomeguyinKorea

    usinkorea, we probably agree on the topic more than you think. I was simply trying to point out that international law is such that the line between acts of war and war crimes is not always clearly defined, and therefore is open for abuse. Should international law be an absolute? In a perfect world, it would. That would make fighting wars quite difficult, of not nearly impossible, which would be a good thing. But, realistically, it will never happen. No nation wants to be the first to send its generals to prison because of the ‘collateral damage’ incurred during their operations.

    I didn’t mention the bombings of London, Berlin, Hirsoshima, Nagasaki, Laos, the Rape of Nanking, the French operations during the Tunisian War of Independence, etc. for creative reasons. Some of you may have gotten that my last paragraph as my piss poor attempt at writing in the style of Kurt Vonnegut (who wrote a very interesting book on the bombing of Dresden (he was one of the American POW who nearly escaped the allied bombs)).

  • SomeguyinKorea

    was a…, who

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    And my point was that is doesn’t help much to point out the wiggle room in International Law in the area of war crimes by being greatly imprecise in your own use of the label – unless your point is that international law in itself is a sham to the point it has next to no value or is such a sham that it should be decried.

    And if the conclusion is to decry international law as it has functioned and does function – then making oblique negative references to the US not joining in the International Criminal Court doesn’t make much since.

    And when you start out with part of the mission in the discussion of the function of international law being the recooperation of pawi’s image — gee golly —- what next?

    We started out with Korea trying to rewrite history by clearing people convicted of war crimes 50 years ago and ended up at a dismissial of the application of international law via some kind of advocation for the International Criminal Court and the calling of allied bombing of Dresden as a war crime……all in the name of saying pawi had a point—-

    That is some impressive gymnastics, but I’m not sure it can work together.

  • hoju_saram

    “australiens who were killed by korean soldiers are excluded from my analysis. they don’t matter since australia does not matter”

    Does that include the thousands of Australian soldiers who died defending South Korea from North Korea? (Who, I might add, fought far more valiantly than the cardboard South Korean soldiers who couldn’t even hold a flank.)

    It’s difficult to be offended by criticism of your country when the critic can’t even spell it, but just for the hell of it, let me educate you on one difference between your country and mine, pawi:

    When Japan tried to invade Australia we fought them. Then got over it. When Japan tried to invade Korea, Korea bent over and whimpered. Then bitched and cried for the next 100 years. There’s a start.

    Today Australia has forgiven Japan and maintains good relations with most countries in the world. Korea hates everyone and everyone hates Korea.

    ’nuff said. belch.

  • Paul H.

    I gather the Allied bombing campaign against Germany has received a lot of attention internally in Germany in the last few years, with many memoirs of survivors being newly published. The Dresden example is more well-known because of the Vonnegut novel, which was being used and discussed in college courses 35 years ago when I was an undergrad.

    The American and British national command authorities actually considered there were valid military reasons for the attack AT THE TIME, which are (somewhat surprisingly to me) detailed here (if anyone is interested): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

    Hindsight is 20/20 especially among armchair generals (and moralists). The common implicit assumption now is that the Allied victory should have been seen in early 1945 as inevitable, but that was far from clear at the time (recent German offensive at Battle of the Bulge, appearance of German jet aircraft, Goebbels’ propaganda promise of yet more new wonder weapons broadcast daily, expectation that the Germans were prepared to withdraw into a “redoubt” in S Germany and continue the war from there).

    The “model” in the Allied leadership’s mind was what had happened after WWI, not what would happen in the future with NATO and atomic deterrence.

    But — draw whatever lessons you like and apply them to the future. What should the US do, for example, if North Korea opens up with their much-vaunted “fire attack” against Seoul, from across the DMZ? Should we retaliate against Pyongyang, or simply confine ourselves to attacking the North Korean firing batteries?

    For myself, I say “let this cup pass”. I say US should withdraw now, leaving the future of Korean war and Korean peace strictly in the hands of Koreans. That way, those of you who are worried about the US failure to subject itself to the ICC (and presumably the consequent temptation to indulge in more Dresdens) can rest easy.

  • Paul H.

    Australian casualties during Korean War:

    “….Australian casualties numbered more than 1,500, of whom 339 were killed. Almost half a million South Koreans died as a result of the war, and an unknown number of North Koreans and Chinese.

    Further information available online:
    Korean War Nominal Roll prepared by the Department of Veterans’ Affairs in Canberra, contains information from the service records of more than 17,000 individuals who served during the Korean War…”

    From Australian war memorial web site:

    http://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/korea.htm

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    At the time of the WWII actions, there were some who said going for “unconditional surrender” was unethical and used as part of the reasoning the amount of destruction and death it would take to do it.

    There are move books today with titles like “The 12 Myths of WWII” that say things like Japan was already defeated by 1945 and no invasion of the main islands was necessary and that also base part of their idea on how much death and destruction it took to force that nation into unconditional surrender.

    When I get to heaven, I’m going to have God play for me a movie or series of movies depicting what a more humane WWII would have been like.

    I expect I’ll probably see the Japanese remain in control of Korea.

    And maybe I’ll even see a Hitler Jr. of Hitler the III become president of Germany a generation or two later (like with Napoleon)…..

    But, I’m sure if we could go back in time and apply pseudo-standards from hinesight, WWII would have been fought on a much more humane basis and come out with a much better result….

  • Paul H.

    USinK: another thing to remember for future “WWII-reference arguments” is the daily Allied death toll that was undoubtedly occurring during those final months of 1945.

    It would probably have to be computed by a detailed historical research product, as I’m almost positive you couldn’t find it listed “as such” in the daily newspapers of the time (discussion would have been censored as bad for public morale, though I think US newspapers of the time did publish lists of names of dead after families had been notified).

    Nevertheless, the total was probably available daily and thus on the mind of Allied war leaders, particularly Churchill who was intensely aware of UK public’s war weariness after 6 years of heavy losses.

    I’m going to guess at least 100 US dead per day for 1945 in the Pacific “on average”. Even after Iwo Jima and then Okinawa (the bloodiest US land battle of WWII “per capita” I think), you’ve got to figure at least a few dozen US and Allied (UK fleet forces) deaths daily, from air and sea action in waters around the Japanese home islands (and elsewhere in the Pacific where blockades were being maintained on significant Japanese forces).

    Also major organized Japanese Army forces were still fighting in the mountainous remote areas of Luzon against the US Army in July-Aug 1945.

    Japanese were projected to be able to hold out for possibly a couple more years, thus the planning for a massive US ground invasion of their home islands (two phases, I think first one was projected for southernmost island of Kyushu Nov 1945, followed by the main one on Honshu to drive on Tokyo, Jan or Feb 1946).

    OTOH, maybe if they’d held out and there’d been no A-bomb, the Russians might have ended up liberating all of Korea instead of just half — and today Korea would be “one”. Something to think about!

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  • Origami

    As a Great Coach once said, Coach Ditka: “Those who live in the past are coward and losers,” and so it seems we have lot of those here and there.

    Fact is, History is written by ‘winners’ rather than ‘losers’. One can argue the merits of this care, i.e If Korea was never invaded in the first place this would have never taken place. What has take place afterwards is nothing but conjecture and fanciful retelling of a sad chapter in human history that should be better left untold.

    If Japan had won the War, as strange as it may sound, arguments would be made on the cruelty and the destructiveness of the use of the atomic bombs. That Americans only dropped it on Japan simply because they were racist, and they would have no problem with rewriting such history.

    Unfortunately, this is one of the reasons why Historians in general are skeptical of history books. They tend to read between the lines rather than the lines themselves.

    In the Universe we live in, the idea of “pure truth” simply may not exist. As Einstein speculated, life itself is relative. Truth and reality as is mainly depends on your perspective. Such ideas maybe unsettling to simplistic moralistic view that Americans have in general, but America is not going to be the center of the Universe forever.

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    I want to disagree with Origami for the sake of broadening out our thinking.

    Look at American and European historians today and the last few decades. I would say it is a strong section of Western intelligencia that has been (re)defining Dresdin as a war crime. It is a segment of Western intelligencia that is saying the atomic bombs were unnecessary and even a war crime.

    If you are educated in university in the US (and I’d guess Europe as well), you are given a very hefty dose of “what WE did”.

    If you go look at some American high school history books, you can find more pages and time devoted to the internment of Japanese-Americans and the use of the atomic bomb than you can about the tenacious fighting or major campaigns of the war or things like the rape of Nanking or the Batan death march and so on.

    In reality, most of these arguments are not old. There were some people of influence arguing against allied bombing, unconditional surrender, or use of the atom bomb at the time, but their voice was not heard as much as the others. But slowly, they have been heard more and more —

    I would say more and more to the point that generations in schools today in the US aren’t learning the main positive points about the WWII experience.

    I would also like to ask — can we picture a Japan of 1940 or a Germany of 1939 ending up like the American and Western European societies of today?

    Do you think a victorious Japan and a victorious Nazi Germany would be as good at De-Constructing themselves as we are hell bent on doing in the Western democracies????

    Food for thought….

  • http://www.koreasojourner.blog-city.com/ usinkorea

    “most of these arguments are not old”

    that should be “not new”.

  • michael

    Origami. no offense, a lot of people think “As Einstein speculated, life itself is relative. Truth and reality as is mainly depends on your perspective,” but he meant for an observer within a reference frame of physical reality, not for historical or moral certitude, although your point is well taken.

  • treesjess

    he wrote a good book too. The Koreans; who they are, what they want and where there future lies.

    koreans need to lcean up their country. it is dirty.

  • treesjess

    koreans, if you are so proud, why do you buy Japanese cars and products and not Korean cars and products?

    pitiful… please go to youtube and type pitiful koreans.

  • Paul H.

    Origami — the Japanese art of paper folding (knew it was something like that but I had to look it up).

    I reckon one who seeks to master such a craft should be careful not to get too wrapped up in his own love of intricacy, lest he end up creating an unrecognizable form. Of what use can such a thing be?

    Two quotes from the wisdom of Chairman Origami:

    1) “…Truth and reality as is mainly depends on your perspective. Such ideas maybe unsettling to simplistic moralistic view that Americans have in general, but America is not going to be the center of the Universe forever.”

    2) “As a Great Coach once said, Coach Ditka: “Those who live in the past are coward and losers,” and so it seems we have lot of those here and there.”

    I guess I should now slink away shame-faced — but that’s hard to do when trying to suppress intense laughter. The sayings of a florid-faced American football coach are quoted in order to help lead us all into the brave new “non-America centric” universe?

    Ah, these infuriating Americans! Even when the world is “in their face”, ostensibly trying to push them away, nevertheless said world is extremely careful to keep a good hard grip on the American lapels — lest they really do “go”.

    Well, I’m sure ready for a fresh new “non-American centric” “departure” when it comes to US-Korea relations, and I plan on using “real” (not “relativistic”) knowledge of the past as a guide to judging the possible outcomes of our “many possible futures”.

    The issues of war and peace, life and death, have a way of reducing fanciful debate about relativism into very simple moralisms, and it’s damn sure past time for the US to remove itself from the center of the Korean universe, to help “clarify” the future (ie what shall “one Korea” become?)

    We in fact have a few simple choices Origami. We (meaning the ROK (not “Korea”), and the US) can:
    1) go left
    2) or go right
    3) or go up the middle;
    4) or we can stand in place (keep on doing the same old thing), but our opponents aren’t necessarily going to let us “keep on keeping on” with that option anymore.

    And of course “opponents” don’t mean the same thing “relatively” to the US and the ROK anymore (that’s one lick I’ll grant you, Origami).

    5) Or we can fall back (my choice), see what happens!

    There will be a result of whichever one of the 5 actions we pick and it will become eventually and “simply” clear to the cold-eyed gaze of HG Wells’ Martians. Perhaps you remember them, if you like that story of his as much as I do — recall that they stared at the earth through their telescopes prior to launching their invasion.

    I like to think of them up there even now, looking down at us, though of course now we have 100 additional years of real scientific knowledge about Mars under our belt, thanks to American scientific advanc….oops, I’m being America centric again).

    6) There’s one more choice, I suppose (makes a grand total of six). We can “go over” (the analogy is that helicopters bring a new “third dimension” to warfare). You are free to use your creative imagination to decide what this might turn out to be, in the “political dimension”.

    Perhaps a grand bargain–US suddenly signing a peace treaty with DPRK, followed by a US withdrawal from the peninsula (as opposed to US just leaving unconditionally). Many things will indeed be possible in our new “relativistic” universe.

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  • http://www.dutch-east-indies.com Mrs.Elizabeth van Ka

    I am 81 years old, I was in a Japanese in a POW camp,in the former Dutch East Indies, now Indonesia.

    Please read my website: http://www.dutch-east-indies.com

    It was long after the war that I learned that quite some camp-guards were Koreans and not Japanese. But I do know that the guards were under the order of the Kempeitai.
    I was with my mother and two sisters in a prison Banyu Biru 10 in Central Java near the town Ambarawa.
    My father was killed by the Kempeitai in Malang, East Java.

    The Kempeitai has been extremely cruel towards all of us in Indonesia during WWII, to Indonesian, to Chinese, to Dutch to Australians a.s.o.

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