It seems Da’ Netizens have tattled on Gerry, who as you know writes quite a bit on Dokdo over at Occidentalism. In his last post, Gerry says the president of the university at which he works has asked him to stop posting on Dokdo on the Internet:
I had planned to write two more pieces for my series on Dokdo/Takeshima, but the president of the university I work for in Incheon has asked me not to post anymore about ‘Dokdo’ on the Internet. He told me that it was a sensitive issue in Korea and that he had been contacted by individuals complaining of my postings on the subject. He said that he was worried about the school’s reputation.
The president suggested that if I have strong opinions on the subject, I should write about it in an academic paper or hold a seminar rather than broadcasting it over the Internet. I agreed to do that even though I do not think anyone would take a non-historian seriously. Therefore, I will not be posting anymore about ‘Dokdo’ on this site. People who would like to continue to exchange information on the subject can still contact me through my email address.
Amazing… you can be an Internet journalist and post a whole series of obnoxious, racist crap (see Sin Yeon-hee’s stuff here), not to mention the kind of stuff you see posted about Japan on a regular basis. But if you post intelligent, well-reason discourse on Dokdo, you’d better be prepared to pay with your job.
Frankly, I don’t know who’s worse… the nationalist netizen thugs or the university president who caved into them.
102 Comments
Hanchongnyon.
It was great while it lasted. I guess there’s not much point in editing out the guilty parties “Korean Times” style?
“A man identified only by the name Kim a student at X university.”
Well, you don’t know whether it was netizen thugs who complained or students/profs from the university. My guess: the latter.
Good point.
It has been said that the lynch mob is the purest form of democracy.
Suggested reading: Tocqueville and the Tyranny of the Majority.
That’s what happens when you put your real name and face on the net. No good deed goes unpunished.
I wonder if vank had anything to do with this. They couldn’t use their usual tactics without risking a whole lot of free publicity for the opposition and maybe it took them this long to figure out another way of doing things.
“Well, you don’t know whether it was netizen thugs who complained or students/profs from the university. My guess: the latter.”
It was netizen thugs. I will post the proof here tomorrow, when I have access to my bookmarks.
Was he asked to just stop posting about Dokdo or on the net altogether?
Why not just create an anonymous sock blog and continue?
I think it’s unwise to have too much information about yourself on the internet anyway unless you need to. I would lose my job tomorrow if I put my name up here.
I am actually quite surprised that it took this long.
How about this comment from Bever’s blog:
Though I do not read his blog and am unfamiliar with Bever’s writings, this is telling and a disgrace to Korea that will bring the wrong kind of attention to South Korea from the rest of the world.
Hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha
Korea, what a shit hole.
“Korea, what a shit hole.”
==================
erm…are you saying Korea has a nice ass?
I would have agreed and then started posting about Takeshima. But then again, I’m a dick.
I have little patience for attempts at gaining ’symbolic victories’, whether it is in sports, politics, or any other facets of life. It’s the sort of behavior best left in the sandbox. Needless to say, arguments centered around Korea’s historical claims to Dokdo, whether they are real or imagined, are simply wasted on me. The fact of the matter is that South Korea has Dokdo in its possession. They have it…they are defending it…it’s theirs. Game over.
PS. As a form of protest, I think someone should translate his research in Korean and post it on their own blog.
Here are the Korean nationalist netizen thugs that made a campaign against Gerry, and tried to get him fired from his job.
They say stuff like “we will deal with Bevers in the usual way” ect. By the way, these people are from the nationalist Killzap (Kill Japs) naver cafe. They are supposed to be researching Dokdo to prove it belongs to Korea, but they cannot refute Gerry’s thesis, so they try to get him fired instead. Notice they include his work details in their plan of harassment.
Bevers can write/post about it all he wants… as Berry Gevers, etc. Same message, ‘different’ source.
Now that gbevers has ceased will “killzap” be content? I doubt it. Won’t be surprised if they up the pressure for a “sincere apology”.
Having witnessed what happened to the “dog poop girl” and the “ex-boyfriend of suicide girl” I think gbevers will face more threats.
The university head is the more culpable. He knows the score and his own responsibilities, while the thugs are quite inert to reality. To know and then to act against what one knows is more culpable than to be an ignorant cretin and act accordingly. And in the end, thugs only get meaningful power when the university heads kiss their asses.
Which is still to say that both need to be fought, in the name of truth, justice…and the rest.
That’s pretty messed up.
Mr Bevers might want to take this threat up with media freedom watchdog groups (some of which pay attention to bloggers troubles with authoritarian states) http://www.cpj.org http://www.rsf.org
…or even the Nat’l Human Rights Commission (which has a lot of free time on its hands because it ignores North Korea)
I would have enjoyed reading more from him on the Dokdo issue. However, the university president that had made the request has been put in a difficult situation in this matter, having to try to appease the whinny-ass netizens in Korea, while also supporting freedom of expression too — everything has its limit though.
In any event, his request to stop publicly posting seems reasonable enough. And as well, a proper, scholarly, academic publication would be a far more suitable medium for his personal views. Perhaps the university is interested in sponsoring a colloquium on the Dokdo matter with Sir Marmot as the host…
–Remort
I concur with the Goat that it is surprising that it took Koreans this long to gang up on him. I don’t know what Gerry’s contract is like, but at least the university is not finding some excuse to get rid of him. I did not agree with everything he wrote but appreciated his alternative views and respect that he, like Robert, uses his real name in the blogsphere.
Mr. Bevers at least has been upfront with me about posting what he does when I questioned his motives, so I respect that and of course I condemn his employer–however this is Korea, and even if his contract had no reference to what he should/shouldn’t do outside of work hours, it doesn’t matter because A) he’s a foreigner, so to Koreans he simply has “no right” to comment on Korean matters, and B) Dokdo is a tiny, birdshit-covered lodestone for all that is petty minded and insecure in the collective psyche here, so Koreans brook no debate on it, least of all from a foreigner.
Really? Do you think that were Gerry like one of the non-Koreans who blogs in support of Korean possession of Dokdo that the university president would have asked him to stop? Would you say that those bloggers should quit posting their personal views on Dokdo and instead limit their Dokdo posts to academic publications?
I think there’s a huge double standard here. I wonder why you and the other commenter with that opinion don’t see that.
Another amusing thread of comments. I guess if you refute Korea’s claim to Dokdo, you’re lumped in with the Holocaust Deniers. Coming from my background and experience in Korea, I sort of wonder where the hell this cause was hiding out throughout the 70’s and 80’s.
It was only after I started following these great blogs that I became sort of hip to the issue. I had no idea that this was such an emotional thing. Or that people with an agenda were making it into a big thing.
A long time ago, in a different life, I and another guy were posted out to Ulleung-do for 6 months. Life was pretty sweet; we only had two hours of real work to do every day (doing beach surveys where there kind of are no beaches). Most of the time we went fishing and drank The Best Makkeoli in Korea (TM). We were on the North side, in Cheonbudong. There was no place to stay, so we lived with the old widow lady who had the butcher shop. We also taught English and played soccer with the school kids. I can honestly say that if there had been a small American detachment on that island, I would have knifed someone in the back to get there and stay there. Life was bad in the winter, especially when the seas were too rough to land the ferries from Pohang.
Going out for the first time, I and my buddy (both products of DLI and Yeonsei’s KLI) were floored by the impenetrable Kyongbuk accents and dialect words. But we bedded in with the language after a only a few weeks. Much later, when we went back for level 6 at KLI, our new accent was a source of entertainment for all.
If we needed to get our ashes hauled, the village had THREE (count ‘em) THREE full-service tabang’s. Staffed by TDY hookers from Taegu who told us they were raking in about a million and a half a month (1989 won). I was flabbergasted, but the girls told me that when the weather was bad, the fishermen hung out in the tabang’s all day. And the fishermen were making serious money. I never figured out what the women in this one-horse village thought or did about all of this hanky-panky. Maybe they were glad we GI’s were there to pick up some of the slack.
One of the things we did do was to survey a landing zone for helicopters, and later had an aviation company from P’yeongt’aek fly out two specially outfitted UH-60’s (extra internal tanks, lift/penetrator for rescue) to pioneer the route. When they came out, we loaded the oldest residents and the mayor on the birds and went for a ride. All of the pilots were married to Korean women, and we sent them back loaded to the gunnels with lots of squid, mi-eok, and mountain greens, as well as 60 pounds of abalone (jeonbok?) and top shell (sora?) (priceless beyond mere words).
To their credit, the Army aviators were there for us throughout the winter, whenever someone on the island needed medivac’ing, the 52nd would fly out in the dead of night.
But then someone got…ideas.
To make a long story short (NOW IT CAN BE TOLD!), the ROK’s set up a small aid station on Dokdo staffed by SEAL medics. the ROKN kept tabs on every pregnant woman on the island who was nearing her due date…And then one night we got the call for a medivac.
The US Army aviators busted ass to get to Kangneung, refuel, and tear ass out to Ulleungdo and load up Mom and the worried Dad. It was only when they were on the ground that I gave them grids to Dokdo, and after a quick weight/balance/fuel calc, they were on their way to Dokdo. The GI pilots had never heard of the place (it was Waaay south of Ulleungdo, range-wise for a UH-60).
They delivered Mom, shut down, refueled from 55-gal drums thoughtfully placed on the island, and 10 hours later Mom popped out the first Korean citizen born on Dokdo (or so I was led to believe). When Mother and Baby were fine, we delivered them back to Ch’eonbudong, landing to a standing ovation on the soccer pitch in front of the kukmin hakkyo. Two more UH-60’s departed Ulleungdo loaded at max gross with seafood.
As far as I know, the ROK’s didn’t coordinate a damned thing with USFK, other than what was necessary to clear the aircraft through Kangneung. We kept expecting some sort of write-up in the Korean papers or Stars & Lies. Nothing doing. The ROKMC commander on the island swore us to secrecy, (sealed with 1 ‘mal’ of The Best Makkeoli in Korea (TM)) and we allowed we’d do that.
I still correspond with some of the people out there, and they remember us fondly. I hope at least this part of the alliance is working out okay. The islanders even then were rabidly anti-military (didn’t matter which country, US or ROK); they’d managed to stay out of the last Korean war, and did not want the ROKN to base ships there.
The island at that time was sort of garrisoned by a battalion of reserve ROKMC. Their arms room looked like a museum, and mostly during monthly drills we drank a lot and played go-stop.
Irrawaddy, that’s a hella of a story.
About the dabang girls’ incomes: in 1989 the won was approx. 650 to $1, and I recall it ended the year at approx. 670. Salarymen earned approx. 700,000 won a month.
Let’s retitle this post “Gerry bends over, kneels down and licks the Korean foot”.
I don’t care about Dokdo, any more than I care if subatomic particles have 4 quarks or 5, or any other pointless debates.
However, a big razz out to Gerry and nomination for gutless waygook of the month award. You abandoned something you passionately believe in to secure your 2 mill a month, in a country where replacing that job would take all of 1 day. How does it feel?
For all the solemn “hey what if was you” posts defending Gerry going yella, pshaw to you in advance.
I will have to disagree with those that condemn the university president for his decision. Although it is unfair and does quite clearly show a double standard, in reality, he had very little choice but to do what he did.
I think we have all seen the viciousness in which these cyber thugs will attack anybody without thought or remorse. I think it is farily safe to assume that the president is also aware of this. He had to protect the interests and (near) future of the university. By doing so, he could have also protected Mr. Bevers’ job as well (intentionally or otherwise).
In an ideal world, perhaps the president could be lauded for taking a stand for academic freedom and what it stands for - however, as we all know, this is far from a perfect world.
I am not Newton Kabiddles when I’m in my office.
The university president should be condemned absolutely and in the strongest terms for caving in to Internet freaks and not understanding the primal importance free speech and open debate should have in the university. While I am no fan of Mr. Bevers and his Dokdo thing, the university president was just wrong.
On the plus side — hopefully Mr. Bevers will now try to write and present in the academic world, where this sort of debate belongs (I would focus on North American journals specializing in Asian history, but if one of the locally produced journals has the balls to print his research, so much the better). Plus, who wants a job at a place that is obviously so third-rate?
Goat, exactly how did the university president have “very little choice but to do what he did”? He could have responded like a grown up and said Bevers can do what he likes on his free time as long as it’s not illegal, end of story. If some people in Korea have a really childish mentality about free speech, why cave into them so easily?
The BBC recently did a story about this infantile behavior in Korea:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/pro.....112754.stm
We’ve seen many incidents like this. I remember Yonsei firing Ma Kwang-Su, who was a pretty well-known professor, for a “too-sexy” book titled Beloved Sara. A TV news reader was canned for uttering disapproval of Korean demonstrators’ violence. A sportcaster faced harrassment (and sacking?) for agreeing that the Swiss weren’t offsides. (As those fired were Korean this is evidence that Koreans are too kind to the foreigner ;-))
I guess Korea has improved, if it can be called that, in that Mr. Bevers wasn’t terminated. Will his contract be renewed is yet to be seen.
For those Koreans who believe in freedom to cower from jack-booted “patriots” is shameful. Sadly Korea is still too weak to permit genuine discourse.
As an entertainer (and that’s what bloggers are) who gives away his material for free, Gerry was absolutely right in doing what he needed to do to keep his money coming.
So big guy, why isn’t it you? A brave defender of ideas like you seem to be wouldn’t be afraid to continue his blogging for him.
…Assuming you’re in Korea and have enough personal information out there to be found by these internet chuckle-heads, and not safely on the other side of the planet.
[blockquote]However, a big razz out to Gerry and nomination for gutless waygook of the month award. You abandoned something you passionately believe in to secure your 2 mill a month, in a country where replacing that job would take all of 1 day. How does it feel? [/blockquote]
Given Gary’s age and seniority at the university, he would be foolish to risk his job over blogged research that is not going to change ownership of Dokto. Gary’s decision was pragmatic.
michael,
He did what he had to do following the good ole CYA principle. Seouldout mentioned a few examples of what happens when you don’t and try to do the right thing. Another one that comes to mind is the MBC (?) journalist who lost her job because she said some of the students’ actions against the US bases were shameful (forgive me if I missed some details).
Until there are some changes there is very little that individuals can do. Sad but true.
There is a web site in Korea that mostly deals with military issues, which also happens to have a bulletin board. Most of the postings there are by Korean netizens, who keep saying that Korea should buy the best weapons on the market(ie F-22s) no matter what and that Korea should have the military ability to take on China and Japan after things have been settled with North Korea.
I put up a couple of postings saying that 1) Korea’s defense budget isn’t that big as one thinks 2) That if we are to buy a new weapon systems, then it should be something that Korea needs and at the same time be a cost effective solution 3) We shouldn’t be getting into an arms race with China and/or Japan 4) And finally, Korea should seriously look into cutting waste in the military.
And what do I get in return?
Tons of responses accusing me of being a Japanese spy, to comments “If you don’t know about military matters, shut up”(this from a guy who thinks Andrews AFB is a fighter base and that Langley AFB is practically located square at Washington DC’s city limit),
“Those weapons should bought no matter what!” , and my favorite “Who needs medical insurance and social security, screw them spend it on the defense budget instead!”
The Internet truly brings out the bad in Koreans.
Korea is a backwards cultural crapshoot. The best moment of my life was when I left that shithole Seoul. I make a point to tell every person who asks exactly what I think of that little country. I’ll step it up a notch now for Beavers.
Making him stop posting on the internet is such a ‘korean’ thing to do. They cannot stand someone who puts a thorn in their pretend history of being abused. Collectivist to the last.
Well alrighty then….
“I’ll step it up a notch now for Beavers”
Me too
I spelled that wrong, didn’t I?
Bevers (sp?) should write a book about the topic now. Have it translated into Japanese.
Hmm…I remember a journalist from a big conservative newspaper here telling me that they had cut back on their NK-human rights reporting due to the barrage of cyber-attacks that follow each article. So I guess nothing surprises me. I just wonder how the intimidation went down. Univ pres got a bunch of angry e-mails? Or was the local Hanchongryon branch alerted and set to work?
독도는 우리땅!!!
ANY foreigner who has the gall to refute that gets fired!!!
i think bevers should present his ‘findings’ on dokto to the asia times ’speaking freely’ section.
’such trivial matters such as dokto.’ bevers
gerry actually wrote that here on this blog. a man who has written an 8 part series on a subject nobody cares about tells us the subject his thinks about night and day is trivial. interesting.
btw, when dda published my e mail address, i didn’t see any of you talking about thugs. didn’t see anybody defend my right to free speech.
my main themes about the expat is oh so true; the expat is a master at the arts of hypocrisy.
’seoul a shithole’
and you think about that shithole, don’t you?
Frankly, I don’t think we furriners have too much bidness getting in between the Japs and them there Ko-damn-reans in this fight.
There is just no good in it.
But in this case, the matter is about what is historically correct. In this case, Gerry really should publish, present, and defend, but probably not on the peninsula. Maybe in a safe 3rd country like Romania or Peru. Some place too damned far away for the netizens to afford tickets to get to.
Nulj, you should come back to Korea. They’ve got this thing going on called “Free Hugs”. Methinks you could use one.
This is Korea. Dokdo is a sensitive issue. Most university professors and instructors in any country have a clause in their contract that forbids them from doing anything to harm the reputation of the university. We (well, most of us) are guests here, and it should be incumbent on us not to cause offense the country that has taken us in. It is certainly a great shame that Gerry has suffered the harassment he has, and those who have threatened him should be condemned in the strongest of terms.
On the other hand, the university president didn’t do anything wrong in acting to protect his university and Mr. Bevers, too. He also took a balanced approach in supporting Mr. Bevers’ right to espouse his views within an academic setting. In any case, the website in question should probably not be a first choice for a university instructor’s real-name writing on Korea.
Finally, I thought this whole Dokdo thing had boiled over. As SomeguyinKorea has said, Korea has physical possession now, has for years, and that should about end the matter.
It’s only become a sensitive issue of late because the unpopular South Korean government has been wagging the dog quite fiercly.
Oh, and I’m not a guest here. I’m a voter.
Well said, NathanB…
Dokdo schmokdo, I don’t care, although some of you might find this interesting: “Economic Dependence and the Dokdo/Takeshima Dispute Between South Korea and Japan”
http://www.asiaquarterly.com/content/view/26/
I missed pawigirogi’s e-mail address. Does anybody have it? Does it have any clues as to his employer? I’d like to alert his employer how stupid and hateful he is.
I remember the first time I saw Gerry Bevers on Marmot’s 2 years ago and thinking, “Holy Hell, why does he use his real name on the internet?”
To the University Prez’s thinking, Gerry is just another Netizen caught in another shit-slingin’ funfest. In spite of what we may think of our opinions on blogs, it is never ever academic stuff… just the Internet. So why doesn’t Gerry really publish?
Just how does free speech relate to protecting one’s university, especially considering that Mr. Bever’s site is not an official site for the university and Mr. Bevers does not misrepresent himself as being a representative for said university?
I fail to see the logic of your comment and consider the president’s conduct to be shameful and cowardly.
R. Elgin,
The president of the university was in a slightly uncomfortable position and pretty much had no choice but to say what he said since Gerry’s connection to the university had already been rooted out by netizens. University politics being what they are this should come as no surprise and was probably a purely professional move on the president’s part and not a personal one. Had he wanted to, he could have fired Gerry over the posts or asked that they be removed from the site—he did neither, thankfully. I think the president’s response was quite diplomatic considering the situation and Gerry did the practical thing by complying with the request.
Yes, the whole thing is unfortunate; yes there are many things wrong with it but at the same time, can you blame him? Universities want students, they want donations, they want a good reputation. Had netizens not complained or identified Gerry with the university, perhaps the president would have turned a blind eye to it all.
I found his suggestion that Gerry publish it in a more scholary environment to be a supportive move, esp. when he could have told Gerry to ignore the issue altogether as long as he worked for the university.
As for free speech…we should know by now that there is no such thing in Korea. This is a country that banned certain blogging services to prevent folks from downloading the beheading of a South Korea citizen. This is the same country that has been targeting newspapers that have been critical of the current administration such as the Chosun Ilbo and that is just the governmet nevermind what the president of a university has felt he has had to do.
On the same token, I also have wondered why Gerry has chosen to use his full name online and write what he writes on the site he chooses to write for. Sometimes it’s just smart to be extra careful if you’re dealing with sensitive issues on questionable sites, especially if your visa is dependent on that of another party.
I’m not saying that what has happened is right, but if you are going to engage in certain activities there are things you can do to protect yourself. Otherwise you must be willing to assume the risk and it seems Gerry has handled it quite well despite the unfavorable situation. I would have done the same thing if my visa were in the control of my employer. Fortunately it is not.
NathanB -
In free societies I think this covers criminal activities, sexual relations with students, bribery, plagiarism, conflict of interest, yada yada. Ironically some of the aforementioned are quite common and accepted amongst academics here. Research still seems to be okay, doesn’t it? And given that it often tends to debunk someone’s sacred cow, having such a clause in the employee’s contract would certainly run counter to the university’s raison d’être.
I wonder if some here have read what Mr. Bevers wrote. It certainly isn’t anything rude or insulting. Let alone criminal. In a nutshell, he states the Koreans confused another island, visible from Ulleundgo, for Dokdo, which isn’t.
Look anywhere and you’ll find some groups out there that are disgusted/angered/insulted about most anything. Shall we cower when they huff and puff? How about women holding powerful positions in business and government? I’m not a woman, and it may even be to my advantage to reduce the pool of contenders. What the heck, I’m all for being against them. Find a blog that speaks of advancement and equality, post some inflammatory drivel on naver about how it’s against Korea’s culture, and I’m sure to find quite a few nut jobs who’ll write complaints to the blogger’s employer.
That some of you see prudence in the university’s decision is flabbergasting.
Thank you for your thoughtful commentary Jodi.
It still reflects poorly upon the president and any reputation Korea might have in the world.
And I suppose that personal slight against me was completely called for, right seouldout?
Whatever your hang ups are regarding the situation, it’s not unique to Korea.
Gerry’s posts may not have been insulting to Koreans but if you claim to tell me that matieral on Occidentalism.org isnot insulting to Koreans and that by posting on that blog does not in some way indirectly associate Gerry’s writing with things that have appeared on that site before, regardless of whether or not he wrote them, then try harder to convince me.
Looking at the whole context, I can see cause for concern.
Listen, who are angry netizens going to target on that site? The writers who aren’t in Korea or the writer who is?
Why does this come as shock to anyone?!?!? Seriously.
“btw, when dda published my e mail address, i didn’t see any of you talking about thugs. didn’t see anybody defend my right to free speech.”
You are again (naturally) missing the point here, nulj. But I find myself surprised that you could possibly have any sense of shame.
Jodi, Gerry has publicly disagreed with me at times, and that is fine. He is nobody’s gimp. I also think you are barking up the wrong tree. The netizens are not angry at Gerry for posting on Occidentalism - they are angry about him posting a dissenting opinion about Dokdo. Their posts on the killzap (kill jap) naver cafe, where the attack on Gerry was organised, makes it clear that it is Gerry’s postings on Dokdo that they are reacting to. They do not mention me, or any of my postings. They do not speak of Occidentalism in general terms, or even show any cognizance of what it is. They also make it clear that the reason Gerry came to their attention was that he had found some of their writings on their normally closed cafe and they wanted to “plug the leak” and punish him for his Dokdo writings. They also point out Gerry’s writings on his own site, Korean Language Notes.
To recap, the anger directed at Gerry has NO RELATIONSHIP to him posting on Occidentalism. If you need convincing, see the entire plan of attack that I discovered on the killzap cafe. It totally disproves your supposition that this is a more nuanced situation than just Korean netizens being outraged at a foreigner that dares to disagree.
Next time I hear that bit about the French and surrendering, I know where to point them to
I still don’t know why it took Jerry Beaver so long to find out that Dok-do was, is, and forever will be our territory.
If it took so long to find that out, perhaps it will be a revelation that there are plenty of English teaching jobs in Japan.
This is another interesting story on the topic of free speech and blogging.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01816.html
Also the guy behind this blog was told to stop writing about the middle east by his boss in the UK because he was afraid it was bad for their image:
http://www.desertsun.co.uk/blog/?cat=2
I think it is going to become a more common occurance.
I don’t approve of their actions of course but I am not surprised by any of this. I am surprised Gerry was not smarter in how and where he presented his material.
I am interested in the response to this question. Do you think he would have got the same reaction for posting his Dokdo series on Frog in a well? I am not sure that he would have.
You, Mr. Bevers, Mr. Koehler, Matt, Bluejives, and I all have our respective views, and doubtlessly there are plenty who don’t like them. I guarantee you there are folks who’d like to see this blog shut down. Maybe the same for yours. Yet, you’ve decided to align yourself with hypocrisy because you don’t like Matt’s site. And of “insulting to Koreans”, you got the lowdown from all of them and are now their spokesperson? Why can’t you be honest with who feels insulted? It’s you.
I see a disturbing contradiction between your last two posts. In the first you commiserate with Mr. Bevers:
And in the second it’s guilt by association. I reckon the second is your truer sentiment. The first is crocodile tears.
Agreed, but in different respects. I feel no need to silence anyone. And I let each person’s words speak for themselves.
Well, my comments were to NathanB,(didn’t see your second post until I posted my comments) but based on your third post I think you deserve it more. Serendipity.
Yeah, I missed that too. Do you think the little fella is actually employed, though?
DDA, could you please print that hypocrite, racist jackass’s e-mail address again for the benefit of those of us who missed it? TIA.
Hmmm…Gerry posts logically, unemotionally, supported by facts, but he is the danger to society, while those who support and post on “Kill Japs” are not.
OK…..
Gerry, who posts at a scholarly level, but not in support of what most Koreans believe on a purely emotional level, should limit himself to posting only in an academic context.
Steve Barber and Mark Lovmo, though, should keep on posting on their non-academic blogs, because their stated views are in tune with mob opinion.
Through the looking glass …
Damn, I missed a preposition.
–
Thank you, Jodi.
–
I still think that the issue here isn’t free speech, and this isn’t America. Too many folks are importing a particular mindset into this situation that simply isn’t called for. The givens (that this is Korea, that Dokdo is a sensitive issue, that we are outsiders) do not appear to be understood.
While I am not in favor of silencing Mr. Bevers on Occidentalism, I am also not in favor of the condmenation of the president of the university of which Mr. Bevers is a member. The focus of condemnation should properly remain on the threatening individuals themselves.
As for the forum of the comments themselves, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If Mr. Bevers has not been thus far tied to the contents of Occidentalism, this may be owing to luck and lack of time. Real “research” in a university atmosphere ordinarily takes place in academic journals, not on websites that have an apparent (please note the word) agenda against one country or group, or which recount the activities of drunken threesomes.
Were there three beavers or more?
And why would either beaver need to be drunk to partake in such an activity?
photos please.
Too clever by half. So many words to say: “I’m glad he got what he deserved.”
dlatn, post of the day. I’d rise my glass to you had I not dropped it.
I don’t remember it exactly, but I do believe that it was an AOL email address (no surprise there).
Somehow, I always found this particular mindset to be the thing that pissed me off the most during my stay in SK. To a certain, limited extent, I can see where this can be a valuable survival tool (i.e. comporting with the civilised norms of the host country - not whipping it out and pissing on the street, as it were (although on second thought, wouldn’t that be perfectly acceptable?)) On the other hand, when this principle is basically used to tell someone to shut up and not cause waves, I have a problem with it. And the thing here is that we’re not talking about Mr. Bevers standing on the street corner and hurling racist epithets at passers-by. He posted his research online, on a website clearly not intended for domestic consumption (it’s 99% English), to which a group of cyber-thugs took offense and decided to launch a campaign of persecution and harassment solely because Mr. Bever’s views did not comport with their collective sense of han or minjok or whatever other bullshit catchphrase is typically used to keep the sheep safe in their collective nationalist hallucination these days.
So basically, are we really willing to say that the people who live and work in Korea shouldn’t try to criticize it in any way, shape, or form, when they’re the ones best suited to casting that critical eye on the country? To what end? Solely to appease the raving nutters on the Internet — the frothing, mouth-breathing trolls who conduct activities that can be (and often are) called ‘cyber-terrorism?’ Are we really supporting only allowing a sanitized version of the truth escape South Korea, solely to avoid offending the nationalist party line? We’ve already got one website that presents that view of Korea to the world… Do we really need another?
‘free speech! free speech! this is korea; it has no free speech!’
a muslim professor for the university of florida was asked to resign for excercisng his free speech towards israel. didn’t hear any of you whinning then. recently, a court in europe sent a man to prison for denying the holocaust. didn’t hear any of you whine about free speech.
gerry associated himself with a known hate site. still further, gerry maintains his own website which contains such objective topics like ‘korean sex’. the university was right on the money to ask him to stop. and that wasn’t about free speech since gerry has every right to continue his association with a known bigot if he chooses to do so. and the university has every right not to employ him. got nothing to do with free speech.
oh, btw, a couple years ago, a us soldier started a website called ‘i hate korea’. the korean press started reporting about and the army told him to shut it down. i thought you told me these kinds of actions are things that only koreans do.
isn’t it interesting how people are the same wherever you go?
‘can i have pawi’s e mail address?’
why not ask the marmot for it? he’s the one who gave my address to dda. remember, you write something that pisses him off, he’ll retaliate. just like a korean.
btw, dda, did you have a little tantrum when you published my e mail address? don’t like what i write, do you? want to retaliate, don’t you? just like a korean, aren’t you?
or perhaps, you’re still angry that i exposed you as a liar ie ‘mongol and manchu have the same grammar as korean and japanese.’ uh, no, they don’t.
‘pawi so hateful…’ lawyer
‘koreans are crooks.’ lawyer
‘i despise koreans.’ lawyer
‘koreans never obey the law.’ lawyer
‘koreans are nasty.’ lawyer
‘koreans deserved to have their stores burned down.’ lawyer
‘a korean doesn’t know how to tell the truth.’ lawyer
‘i’m married to a korean.’ lawyer
nulji’s drooling again…..
To Shakuhachi’s assertion that that fact Gerry was writing on Occidentalism had nothing to do with his being targeted for cyber harassment, I offer only “come on“. Occidentalism’s raison d’être is to challenge Korean nationalist sacred cows and reveal them as the frauds they truly are, something that has tended to attract the attention of and raise the ire of Korean netizens. Whether you agree or disagree with what is written there, this much is quite obvious. I doubt Gerry’s own blog would have attracted the attention Occidentalism has, what with the ‘critical of Koreans’ (I actually mistyped ‘critical of Koran’ there, but that works too) brand it’s built up; Yeolchae is spot-on in asking whether Gerry would have attracted the attention “posting his Dokdo series on Frog in a well” (Trotskyist contributers and all). Occidentalism will see a severe drop in quality if Gerry stops posting, but it will, in the short term, benefit from all this attention - even ‘bad’ publicity is still publicity, right?
Having just finished watching ‘Borat’, I couldn’t help but remember writing (shortly after the Takeshima Day shitstorm early in 2005) “독도는우리똥” (the ID of a former poster here, of course) on a napkin above a scrawled drawing of two cartoon pieces of poo sticking out of the ocean. The reaction - which was truly worthy of ‘Borat’ - was impressive, as this girl went nuts, standing over me, beating her breast and screaming “Uri Nara! Uri Nara!!” I wasn’t really trying to antagonize anyone, I was just a little too tipsy to judge whether she’d find it funny or not (and I have met several Koreans who have found it funny, which demonstrates to me that they are at the very least very open minded or have a good sense of humor. I tried this on grade one and two elementary students at the time, and, if you thought floating poo would be funny to kids at that age, you’d be wrong (which, of course, is shocking). The (correct?) response that they gave? “Oeguk ddong! Miguk ddong! Canada ddong!”, which was yelled out between verses of the “독도는우리땅” song as I chuckled and told them, “Yes, your KTU teachers are teaching you very well! Good job!” Really now, is it really that necessary to teach 6 and 7 year olds about territorial disputes? I do hope a “우릉도는 우리땅” becomes a song taught to all primary students soon, as it’s a beautiful place (or in lieu of Irrawaddy’s experience, a nice place to visit for a few days).
Interesting speculation, Matt, but I think that we both know that people running Frog in a well would never permit a discourse that might cause people to doubt that Dokdo is a historical part of Korea, or challenge any other Korean nationalist myth. If it did, it would attract they same ire from netizens.
Interesting story about talking about Dokdo with Koreans. I have many, myself. Do you have an email address? You can drop me a mail at occidentalism at gmail dot com.
Nulji said:
“a muslim professor for the university of florida was asked to resign for excercisng his free speech towards israel. didn’t hear any of you whinning then. ”
1. In case you haven’t noticed, this is a KOREA-centric blog. The Florida professor’s case is of no interest to Marmot readers, but Gerry’s is since he blogs about Korea and posts here.
2. The facts of the case are rather different: a) ten years ago, the prof chanted “Death to Israel” at a conference in the Middle East; b) the prof started receiving death threats after his activities were exposed on Fox News; he asked to be allowed to conduct distance learning classes, but university regulations require tenured profs to teach on campus.
I do not blame Gerry for giving up his blog nor do I blame the university president for asking him to, given all the furor.
My students don’t ask me ‘Do you know Dokdo?’ anymore. I think many of them have come to understand that the government was overplaying the importance of Japan’s ‘claims’ to divert our attention away from the real issues.
I agree with everything Pawi said in his latest comment. It’s so true, too.
Occidentalism is a HATE site.
Unlike this site, some people there are straight up unhappy that they ever visited anywhere but Japan on the East Asian scene.
I suppose Matt is trying to clean it up, but on every single thread, you’ll find a lot of bullshit. Pretty much by the same people, too.
Furthermore, there’s a bunch of Japanese people on there who are short on English, but good enough to type away their thoughts.
What happenned to Bevers was the right thing
That’s right.
Bevers’s central message is that Japan legally had Dokdo on legal possession sometime during its colonial super regional power days.
So what?
Nations lie ? Really? George Washington couldn’t tell a lie? What really took place at the Alamo? A screaming Davy Crockett begging for his life?
What about the Russians glorifying their rape of Germany? At least 2 million German-Russian mixes running around, they proudly tout.
Big deal.
seouldout,
I never said I supported what happened or that I thought it was right. It makes me uneasy that it happened but I can see how and why this happened and I am not surprised it did. That this should come as a shock to anyone is hilarious. This is an issue not unique to Korea but yeolchae pretty said what I was alluding to before…there are certain factors that will effect someone’s decision on how to handle such an issue and so why are we so surprised here?
For what it’s worth, I know of other Korea bloggers who have encountered the same situation but have chosen not to go public about it. This is nothing new…
Anyway, none of this is a surprise to Matt as he and I have talked about this before so you can continue being hostile toward me in his defense if you wish…it won’t really change a damn thing.
wjk,
re: post 77.
that seemed remarkably like an admission of japanese (legitimate) ownership of dokdo.
i do agree with your point that countries lie, to think otherwise would be pretty ignorant. but then again that’s what a lot of the dokdo argumet is based around, the (korean) claim to dokdo is a lie.
rowan,
If we go that legal route, Japan seems to have made an oversight by granting Dokdo to Korean posession before Japan legalized it as its own.
I think Gerry will tell you that, too.
Then, WW II came and left, and South Korea pretty much occupied it armed.
I think the Japanese claim on the island is solely there just to piss people off in Korea, and Korea just wants to hang on to it, because it gives them a false sense of having an upperhand over Japan.
Japan should just give it up and not talk about it, or they can go Dokdo-style at it with Russia and some northern isles, and with China over an island that is even more insignificant than Dokdo.
It’s basically Japanese nationalism clashing with Russia, China, and Korea’s nationalism factions.
And Gerry Bevers has chosen to make a crusade out of it. To reveal the shocking truth that
KOREANS LIE.
wjk,
my understanding, although i could be wrong was that it was unoccupied, so korea went and occupied it, japan came and drove korea off then korea came and drove japan off and has occupied it since. as i said i could be wrong, but at the same time i don’t think japan had a great deal of options. after ww2 i don’t think that the world would have looked favourably on japan getting into a conflict over a disputed island of very little real signioficance.
i agree with you that they probably just do it to piss off korea, but at the same time a country has to draw the line somewhere on defending its borders. I don’t think that korea uses it to creat the feeling of having an upper hand as much as it is used by the government and media as a tool in their populist politics (and i don’t want to infer that other countries in the region are much better).
“It’s basically Japanese nationalism clashing with Russia, China, and Korea’s nationalism factions.”
I have heard this a lot from koreans and others who haev gotten their info from koreans. i think this misrepresents the situation a lot. true, japan does have other disputes, but which country in the region doesn’t? they are all just as bad.
i can understand why this happened to gerry, adn i don’t really blame the uni president. its the whole of korean society that needs to change. True he could have helped the change by taking a stand against the netizens, but he had a lot to lose and in korea i can understand why people are too scared to stand up and become martyrs for a cause when you and your whole family will suffer greatly.
“I am interested in the response to this question. Do you think he would have got the same reaction for posting his Dokdo series on Frog in a well? I am not sure that he would have. ”
By the way, Frog in a well has mentioned about Gerry’s post concerning the Dokdo/Takeshima controversy in their Asian History Carnival in the past.
http://www.froginawell.net/kor.....nival-6-2/
rowan,
>but he had a lot to lose and in korea i can understand why people are too scared to stand up and become martyrs for a cause when you and your whole family will suffer greatly.
I agree with you that the univ. president found himself in a tight spot, but isn’t this how Germany and Japan, both democratic states, fell into the inescapable spiral of fascism? With high position comes responsibility, not just honor and higher pay. This incident may be just a trivial matter, it is only about a blogger after all, but who will stop the wave when its starts to truly build up, when no one will even try to stop a ripple?
1. Nobody fucks with Gerry Bevers because me and him go back a long ways.
2. Apologists burn my ass. NathanB, I don’t know you, but you are at serious risk of appearing to be one.
3. Any dumbass Netizen who wants to can show up here in Rio Linda, California, and me and Kushibo will kick your collective MF ass. (Isn’t it great? I don’t know Kushibo. He doesn’t know me. And he’s not even on this thread. I’ve been accused of being him once, and felt so honored that I had to throw it in.)
In summary, Gerry Bevers, you go ahead and write whatever you want to write, wherever you are, and the pricks of the world be damned! We can hook you up with a new job if we have to.
University presidents by their very nature do anything so that their university will be kept out of any controversy. It is the rare president who is otherwise. See the Duke University’s President Brodhead’s handling of the Lacrosse incident as a case in point. He didn’t do the right thing by his students, but he did the right thing for keeping the university out of the mess as much as he could.
two cents,
i agree, you make a good point. but i also wouldn’t condemn all japanese and germans either. It only takes very few good people to change the world, and most of us aren’t. You make a good point though about a higher degree of responasbility for those in leadership positions.
so essentially i agree with you, but understand their position.