The Marmot’s Hole » : Rumsfeld resigns…

I didn’t expect such support from a grade school student. I know you had a little problem expressing yourself but I can read “between the lines” and understand what you are trying to say.

“three thousand (projected to happen soon) us troops dead” Even one death in war is two many, but I agree with you that in such a dangerous place with everyone owning guns leadership has held US deaths to a minimum.

“one million iraqi civilians dead” I’m not sure how you are doing in math and how you came up with the number one million (remember to watch the zeros) but there were, and still are a lot of bad guys, in that area and sometimes bad guys die. The former leader did not keep an accurate account of the deaths under his watch, but I think he had a problem with zeros also.

“cakewalk”
“liberators”
“go to war with the army you have”
“nuclear nk”
“us as laughingstock”
“iran emboldened”

Please pay attention in grammer class and rewrite the above.

“yeah, that’s quite an accomlishment!” I’m not sure if you should feel this way if you are talking about war and death. You should talk to your minister on Sunday about such feelings.

‘i love rumsfeld!’ expat who’s never served the us in his life” Try not to confuse love with respect. Also, if you have a crush on any of your teachers don’t let your fellow classmates know. Even if your parents are living overseas, you can stil join the military when you come of age.

‘i’m creepy looking.’ Don’t worry, the pimples will clear up.

It’s probably past your bed time so remember what your mother tells you.

Don’t talk to strangers - wear clean underwear - and if you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

that should be “knew there were no WMDs in 2002″

I’ll play along with this to get something out of the thread.

I’m sure I won’t be agreed with here, but I’ll say this quickly, the idea that the US “knew” there were WMDs in 2002 is a crock of shit. That is why looking back at 1998 is fine — there was a consistent thread on WMDs and Iraq through two administrations from different, opposing parties - reps and dems.

But to move on to more productive ground where we might have more than a “na-na-na-na” discussion —

Clinton and Bush 41 decided not to take Iraq out. Both were wrong - in my opinion.

Powell is an OK guy, but his sticking to the Gulf War choice of putting up No Fly Zones and leaving Hussien in power was wrongheaded just as Bush Sr. deciding not to finish the war.

Clinton’s missile lobs were also bullshit, because they were not even close to a solution to the problem. He even called for regime change, and didn’t get it accoplished. It is somewhat like Reagan bombing Iran and somewhat like bombing Libya - but at least the Libya thing turned out to work.

But the question for the future is —– is “owning” Iraq bad? not worth the effort?

I say it is worth the effort. If the US and Iraqis and others can stabilize that nation and see a democracy grow, it could have a major, major impact in a region that is vital to the world’s interests not just America’s.

What bothers me is how most of the regular people I hear who attack the effort in Iraq — do so for no better reason than it is an attack on Bush and Rumsfeld and crew. It is simply petty armchair politics.

If someone believes the situation in Iraq is hopeless - I mean really believes it — or thinks the effort is not worth the costs - I can live with that.

I think they are wrong - but at least I can respect them having a reasonable opinion.

A good number of people thought staying in South Korea was a lost cause between 1945-1950. (Some thought so after the war period). And they thought so for many of the same reasons people are talking about Iraq being hopeless - bloodshed, ideological divide, and then plain thuggery politics was going to keep the nation down forever until it fell to the communist North without a fight. Which is why the US pulled out in 1948.

But Truman threw us back in and we stayed through thick and thin up to even today.

I think if 50 years from now, we still have troops in Iraq, and Iraq is as developed or close to as developed as South Korea, it will have been well worth it.

And it should not be as hard to build up Iraq — once enough Iraqis become committed to the idea that what is good for their future is to end the sectarian bloodshed and work together.

Two things:

1) Much changed in Iraq between 1998 and 2002. Using data from 4 years prior was not a good idea. See exhibit A : no WMDs.

2) Most importantly, nearly everyone else, including Clinton, Bush 41, and Powell, knew a full invasion of Iraq was not a good idea. You break it, you own it, and Iraq is not something pleasant to own. See exhibit B : the situation today.

This whole debacle has been many things, one of which is a lesson that reality will eventually win out over propaganda. Bush and his cabinet may have fooled many American people (including most of Congress), but somehow the Iraqis didn’t get the message that they were supposed to play into the fantasy.

And read the Dem quotes. Not from 1996, but from 2002 & 2003, the timeframe of the invasion.

No twisting, direct quotes from all your favorite Dems. Saying the same thing Bush did, with the same intel. Yet you call Bush a liar and continue to avoid answering for them. You can’t have it both ways.

And if you’re intel, your service is in serious trouble. It’s pretty sad, really.

Much like the bible, you can twist and turn things any way you want in this scenario. But the bottom line is Dubya mislead the US public in the reasons for invading Iraq when he knew full well in advance that Saddam was no threat, had no WMD and was not connected to 9/11. Bringing up old reports from 1998 to justify his reasoning was brilliant and some folks (obviously) still prefer that brand of snake oil. It’s funny though how most folks who swallow all of this from the Bush administration are usually conservative right wingers who follow the platform blindly like sheep. Real patriots ask questions of questionable leadership. Sheep are not patriots, or responsible citizens.

But hey, what do I know? I’m just an intel flunky too. It’s guys like me who put together the analytical data that is ignored when the politicians have their own agenda. Politicians like George W. Bush. Oil….it’s the other white meat.