The Korean media (Yonhap, Segye Ilbo, Dong-A Ilbo) are expressing concern over Philadelphia Inquirer columnist Jonathan Last’s “naked expression of anti-Korean sentiment” in a Nov. 5 piece explaining why it would be nice for the United States to leave South Korea to its fate.
Ironically enough, it’s his explanation of why, in the end, the United States can’t withdraw from South Korea that seems to have hurt the most:
Of course, that’s just the fantasy talking. In the real world, we have responsibilities we can’t shirk. Japan - one of our real allies - would be in harm’s way if America pulled out of Korea. So would Taiwan. And others. A nuclear North Korea destabilizes the entire region, from Australia to Vietnam. America is, for better or worse, stuck protecting the South Korean people so that they can keep making money, playing baseball, and enjoying their home-theater systems with the peace of mind that comes from knowing that no matter how much they antagonize America, we will always be there to protect them.
Ouch!
Of course, in the end, I disagree with Mr. Last—not because I find his characterization of Korean views of the United States inaccurate (they were, in fact, pretty much on the money), but because a U.S. withdrawal from Korea shouldn’t be simply a fantasy. After all, our real allies—Japan and Taiwan—can produce nuclear weapons just as well as the Chinese and North Koreans, and frankly, the U.S. presence in South Korea doesn’t do a whole lot for us in terms of regional strategy. Sure, it’s great for defending South Korea from a North Korean invasion, but not particularly useful for defending Taiwan, especially given how loath Seoul would be to allow us use of South Korean bases in such an emergency. If anything, the U.S. presence is a waste of valuable military resources that would be better based somewhere like Guam where they could respond to emergencies throughout the Asia-Pacific region rather than being tied down in an unnecessary and thankless security commitment to an ungrateful ally more than capable of shouldering the burden of its own defense.
(HT to Occidentalism)
59 Comments
Not only are the Koreans thankless ingrates but they are also fools. They should be more like the subtle and nuanced Japanese. Koreans ought to learn to stop shooting their mouths off, be quiet, stop being so blatently and obviously anti-American, learn to suppress their true sentiments, and in the meantime milk the Americans for weapons, military technology, etc, just like the Japanese are doing. Quietly build up a potent, deadly military power and THEN talk about independent foreign policy, balancer role, etc.
“America is, for better or worse, stuck protecting the South Korean people so that they can keep making money, playing baseball (?), and enjoying their home-theater systems…” America is getting unstuck and by about 2009 will be very unstuck.
Bluejives is completely right, Korea is now losing out on the advantages of the alliamce, although the key difference with Japan is that Korea is well and truly anti-American (OK, at best, ambivalent) and Japan is not (there’s little anti-American sentiment expressed there, unlike the almost daily U.S. bashing here).
As I’ve always said, Koreans can dish it out, but they can’t take it.
Robert, I sense that your views on the alliance have grown more bearish of late.
Given how much the average Japanese care about Dokdo/Takeshima, I’d say there’s not much to “suppress.” Nice try, though.
USFK is vital to regional stability, however:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HI09Dg02.html
If we don’t remember the lessons of the first half of the 20th century (or so), the term ‘arms race’ will become much more familiar, again.
This guy is spot on. That most South Koreans are anti-American is a message not heard nearly enough in the U.S. Of course, he’s wrong about withdrawal. When we do withdraw, we’ll become liked, just like what happened in the P.I.
South Koreans are beginning to wake up and realize that there are consequences to their actions, even when the actions have been driven by a vocal
rabidminority, who apparently are not working in the interests of South Korea or its people, but rather for what looks like the North Korean leadership — slyly disguised as Korean nationalism.Mr. Last wrote that Korea’s economy is ranked 11th in the world. It’s number ten, no? Someone get on the VANK hotline…
In my life I’ve found the idea that you always find what you’re looking for to be absolutely true…
True as this may be, doesn’t this describe all politics?
I’m sorry, William G, but what was so off about Mr. Last’s observations about Korean anti-Americanism?
where was the “naked expression of anti-korean sentiment”? seemed rather matter-of-fact to me.
it would be wonderful to see the americans take their toys and go home. why should they waste the money. ingrates doesn’t even cover it. and, it would be commeuppance writ large.
two problems, of course:
1. see richardon’s point (6)
2. what we don’t like to admit is that the Koreans (south, that is) would rise to the challenge if the US mil. weren’t here. sure, they’d fuck some things up, but they’d basically get it right.
Joshua—I don’t think they’ve become more bearish per say. I’ve been calling for a major reevaluation of the alliance for some time now. Perhaps I was a bit blunt above—I don’t expect South Korea to be grateful forever, public views about the United States are a bit more complex than Mr. Last’s depiction, and at any rate, public sentiment shouldn’t be the driving force behind any nation’s foreign policy. But at the same time, we need to call a spade a spade. The geopolitical value of keeping troops on the peninsula is, IMHO, next to nill, and while I’m open to keeping certain “special” alliances due to historical and cultural reasons, South Korea doesn’t qualify. Heck, it this were just a Bush thing, I might be able to let it go—I’d say most of the world hates Bush, so no reason to single out Korea. But what we’re seeing in Korea is generational reassessment of the entire history of Korea-U.S. ties in a way that—considering the lack of vital national interests justifying a continued troop presence—makes me seriously question the very basis of the alliance.
Well. I’m certainly glad somebody follows this. I liked Jonathan Last’s tone and choice of words. And the nifty thing about naver is that the journalist/editor’s emails are at the bottom; could not resist sending this to them:
I saw your comments on Jonathan Last’s piece in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Although my Korean is somewhat rusty, the incredulous tone of your comments was pretty unmistakable.
I’d like to add that if the bulk of American citizenry had any clear understanding of how little the US has received in return for stationing troops in Korea over the last 60 years, our troops would be out of there in a heartbeat. We protected your country from communist aggression, allowed you to spend the absolute minimum on your own defense, and watched as your country developed into an Asian tiger.
Reading Korean media it becomes quite obvious that South Koreans have lost any real claim to their country and culture. What a far cry you all are from the Koreans I worked with while spending 9 years of my life on the DMZ. To allow anti-American rhetoric to flourish to the extent that it has is proof enough for me that you are people no longer worth wasting America’s wealth and manpower on…
Japan, on the other hand, carries its weight in the alliance, at least monetarily. Diplomatically it can be seen that Japan supports the US in certain cases where Korea will not, such as in the imposition of sanctions against North Korea.
Once more, I’d like to stress that if Americans, especially those who like myself are from the heartlands, knew just how little our contribution to Korea’s security and economic prosperity is appreciated by the bulk of the Korean public, not only would we withdraw our troops, but trade with Korea would suffer as well. A boycott of Korean products would be the most natural thing, followed by strident calls for legislation blocking imports. Koreans could also forget about visa waivers, easy admission into US schools…
But so far, the overwhelming majority of Americans don’t follow events in Korea that closely. Korea is a little country, far away, and only one of many countries. By writing his oped piece, Jonathan Last is trying to fill in the gaps of what should be important to Americans by making them realize just what side our bread is buttered on.
Korea is still an adolescent among nations.
I can see why it serves American, Korean, Japanese, and Taiwanese interests to keep U.S. air and naval bases in Korea, especially if we have the “strategic flexibility” to use those forces to serve U.S. interests in the greater region. I also think that air and naval forces alleviate most concerns about an arms race among democracies in the region. When you look at the costs, independent defense is a joke. Japan and Korea still need the U.S. to provide most of the air power, warships, intel, and command & control thereof. They can’t afford to buy all of that gear.
What I can’t see is how it serves U.S. interests that we’ve set ourselves up for immediate involvement in a ground war in Korea, which is what having a major ground presence in Korea does. That decision will be made for us when Kim Jong Il pulls the lanyard. A ground war would begin with hundreds (thousands?) of dead Americans. There might be circumstances in which we’d reenforce South Korean ground forces with our own, but I see zero justification for depriving ourselves of other options by putting so many hostages under enemy guns. Maybe someone can convince me otherwise, but I haven’t heard that argument yet.
That’s especially so when many South Koreans express a preference to fight for the other team. I agree that at least as far as ground forces are concerned, they do us much more good in Guam, Hawaii, or Ft. Lewis. When those troops are based in a secure location, they deter North Korea. When they’re tied down in Korea, they mostly deter us.
There’s too much bogus “pride” in S.K., and USFK can be put to better use elsewhere. I doubt anti-American public sentiment in Korea will subside that much no matter who wins the Blue House next year, and the U.S. can still have a regional presence from Japan, Guam, etc.
Gee, maybe it has something to do with what Koreans did in 2002-2003. Oh, I forgot, that was righteous indignation and that is ok.
Most South Koreans are not anti-American. As nation builders, we need to develop a strong middle class of voters. Along with that comes pride in country. We should not confuse pride in country with anti social behavior. South Korea is a better friend to the US than most of the nations in Europe that we either saved (France) or built the economy (Germany).
Most aren’t anti-American, but enough are, and they’re running the government right now. Compare statements from Angela Merkel to the blatherings of Roh Moohyun and see who is “a better friend to the U.S.”
I seriously doubt Japanese are any more pro-American that the “ungrateful” Koreans considering the recent petition signed by 350,000 Japanese urging Japanese government to push US out of Japan/Okinawa, which has worked by the way.
I seriously doubt such a petition would ever work in Korea. As much as Koreans like to bellyache publically, I dobout they are as stupid as the Japanese.
http://www.okinawa.peacefighte.....ion/en.htm
http://www.google.com/search?q.....=firefox-a
With Abe, Japanese are becoming increasingly nationalistic and seeing themselves as the real future leader of Asia. Once America leave Korea, that will be it for America, and the leadership for Asia will be wide open between Japan and China.
Considering what’s going on in East Asia right now, I personally think America is a waning power and East Asia will begin to lead the world in few years.
“America is a waning power and East Asia will begin to lead the world in few years” With all due respect Origami, I think it’s the opposite: China will dissolve into seccessionist and rich/poor disputes, and Japan and S.K. are aging societies that will see declining production and income. Also, none of these countries have the will to unite politically (economically is another story), so I see more suspicion and strife ahead, if not a full-on arms race. Meanwhile, the U.S. keeps the immigrant stream flowing and maintains its position.
Of course they want us out of Okinawa, are boys are corn holing the little girls and basically misbehaving all around. We should pull out and go to Guam. B.B. Bell has all but said our days could be shortened with little notice. I personally think a new person in the blue house can turn this around.
China is a bubble. Big problems on their horizon! I love how they loot personal bank accounts to finance the state owned industries. It’s so cute.
Origami>
I think you’re not fully understanding the Okinawa situation. The anti-American sentiment in Okinawa is not anti-American at all, it’s anti-military. The people also want the Japanese SDF out of Okinawa as well.
Even so, the people in Okinawa fully understand the situation. They’re not asking America to leave Japan all together, they know that now more then ever the American military presence is needed in Japan and Asia. Rather, they’re asking the Japanese government to put the bases somewhere else other then Okinawa. Read the page you linked:
That’s 1 of the two problems the people of Okinawa have with the new base. Part 2 is the location. This new base is to be built overtop of rare coral reef and will destroy that part of the environment. Not hardly an anti-American issue.
Lastly, and the most important difference, when I was living in Okinawa, I went to rallies/demonstrations that called for the militaries to leave Okinawa. Nothing negative ever happened to me, people talked to me, I talked with them. We disagreed on things (i.e. what will you do for a job once the American bases are gone?) but my safety was never in danger. Yet I recall not long ago a white European (that fact is important because being white means you look American) tourist was traveling through S. Korea, was confronted when he happened to stroll by a anti-American demonstration and could have been hurt had a considerate student not come along and saved him by pointing out that he wasn’t American. (However does that mean it would have been okay for a gang of 5 to beat him up had he been American?)
The anti-American situation in the whole of the Korean peninsula is not the same as the anti-War sentiment in Okinawa, nor the rest of Japan.
Whenever I read a series of comments like these I’m more or less blown away by the anger people here have toward the “ungrateful” South Koreans. I’m curious what some of you feel would be the “proper” attitude of South Koreans toward the U.S. should be? Should they celebrate the 4th of July and bow down to an American flag? Any time a foreign army is any country for 50 plus years there’s likely to be tension. Let’s not pretend the U.S. role in Korea has been all roses and ticker tape parades.
Don’t misunderstand me here…I think South Korea has been ungrateful to some degree and I think the US should leave them to their own devices ASAP. An amicable divorce, one that probably should have happened when Carter proposed it during the 70s. But really? What would be a proper perspective for the average Korean to have? As time goes on the U.S. looks more and more stupid for wasting its time here, when the sum total of its investment is going to be almost zero by the time they leave. That’s what people should be enraged about.
Expecting Koreans to shut up and take whatever cards the U.S. deals smacks of racial superiority, and is more likely a clumsy response to the xenophobia they feel walking down the street in Korea every day. Don’t stoop to that level people. And don’t expect foreign policies to be changed by it either.
PS: The idea that the Japanese “carries its weight in the alliance” is utter nonsense. They’re simply better at hiding their animosity, and come on, having your country divided in two is a bit more severe in terms your foreign policy dealings between the world’s single superpower and the other half of your country.
Naishi–It’s not about gratitude or the lack thereof. In my opinion, seeking gratitude for everything all the time is a sign of weakness. It’s all about divergent national interests. South Korea clearly has very divergent national interests from the U.S. Bottom line: South Korea wants the Nork government to remain as long as possible, the U.S. wants it to fall. The South doesn’t mind Nork nukes so much, the U.S. sees them as a dire threat, particularly in the hands of non-state actors (how often do you get to use the phrase “non-state actors?”).
At this point in history, Japan has convergent national interests. Naturally, they’re a better ally.
As a corollary, the U.S. presence here actually prevents us from pursuing courses of action in our national interest, so the sooner we leave, the safer we’ll be as a country. The South can defend itself, and I say that seriously. They CAN defend themselves.
The idea of South Korea being a “friend to the U.S.” is not so much important as the South Korean Government providing better leadership for the country. I am still watching a housing price bubble develop — despite what I have read from the economic think-tanks here and I suspect a bust is still quite possible. The general level of incompetence in government here is more serious than the state of any alliance, since such affects everything. Instead of bashing Bush or America, it would be wisdom to focus upon who and what governs South Korea.
Michael:
“America is a waning power and East Asia will begin to lead the world in few years” With all due respect Origami, I think it’s the opposite: China will dissolve into seccessionist and rich/poor disputes, and Japan and S.K. are aging societies that will see declining production and income.”
————————————————————–
Sounds like you’re wishing more than anything. America can only dream about having problems like aging as the only silly issues.
Today, Half the debt that America owes is to the Chinese. The deficit spending by the idiot Bush has bankrupted America. We have the useless Illegal population growing unchecked, and most American cities are going bankrupt trying to deal with crime infested streets mainly by Mexican and black street gangs dealing in drugs. Half the Hispanic kids in this Country drop out of high school to deal in dope. State of California spends half a billion dollars a year feeding Illegal criminals in jail, try multiplying that to the rest of the Country.
I’m sure Europe is having similar problems with the Arabs. Believe me, West is just about finished.
In few years the the gap between the rich and poor in America will be much higher in the US than in China. Any fool can see that. Much as I would love to see that scenario of China falling apart, It’s not going to happen, and Japan has it’s own ideas about becoming a major global player, and Korea will be forced to choose.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6106280.stm
Tell you the truth, everyone and their grandma is getting a bit sick of America’s belligerent attitude. The world no longer worships the naked Emperor without his clothes on. America better get use to this.
Our so called relationship with our Allies has to change. I series doubt America can stay in Korea even if it wants to. East Asia is changing and it’s better if America begins to treat it’s East Asian Allies as it’s equal rather than a foot servant. The most important economic zone in the world is beginning assert itself.
America better get use to this.
A stupid dog will bleed to death before it knows its been bitten
See comment number 3 and then remember that they took offense at an article written in one of the roughly 1500 daily newspapers published in the US. Agit-prop, maybe?
Origami,
This is a generalization. If one looks at Dalton, Georgia, which is pretty much the carpet capital of America, it employees many Mexicans who moved there to work. Dalton used to attract poor whites from Appalachia during the late 50s and 60s but their sons and daughters did not want to work in a carpet factory, thus the influx of Mexicans to Dalton and the surrounding areas. These people work, pay taxes and pursue a normal life. There are not kids dropping out of high school to deal drugs.
Illegal aliens are a problem in America but it is not quite the picture you paint, not at all.
I wonder if this discussion resembles those the Romans living in Britannia had, in the earliest years of the fifth century …
Read the one of the comments above and tell me how stupid this is.
“A boycott of Korean products would be the most natural thing, followed by strident calls for legislation blocking imports. Koreans could also forget about visa waivers, easy admission into US schools…”
So let me try to understand here. The legitimate concern of will it destabilize Korea or Asia if the US military leaves Korea withstanding, but you want to go ahead and absolutely make sure to destabilize the 10th,11th,or whatever largest democratic country in the world, by putting an economic embargo? And what would be the reason you would use to explain to the world why America will put an economic embargo on South Korea? Because too many Koreans don’t like America? Because the Korean government’s policy on North Korea disagrees with America’s policy on North Korea? Yeah, excellent message to the nations of the world. So why not start by confisticating and nationalizing the Hyundai plant in Alabama, Samsung plant in Texas, Kia plant in Georgia, and default on $100 billion in US treasury bills. Then kick em all out of America first then build a fence around.
(Sarcasm detected)
“So why not start by confisticating and nationalizing the Hyundai plant in Alabama, Samsung plant in Texas, Kia plant in Georgia, and default on $100 billion in US treasury bills. Then kick em all out of America first then build a fence around.”
Excellent idea. However, lets hire them to build the fence first.
Will very much appreciate being clued in before we bugger out and boycott Korean goods cuz I’ve got this chonsei arrangement that I’ll need to get out of.
Thanks in advance for the heads up.
Ah! Someone missed my point. Fact is, most Americans DO NOT follow what the South Koreans are up to. But if the majority of the electorate did know and appreciate what is happening, there would undoubtedly be some very ugly backlash against Korea.
Korea (North and South) is no different from Venezuela, Burma, or any other tinpot place where, -to read the local media, one would come to the conclusion that all the president of the United States does all day is think up new ways to fuck with them. Scanning of a week’s worth of Nodong Shinmun or the New Light of Myanmar will tell you all you need to know.
After a long sojourn in other parts, I started following news in Korea again about a year ago. It was truly a Rip Vanwinkle experience.
20 years ago I could not have believed that South Korea would be deploying a policy like Sunshine, let alone be looking for new ways to appease the North and hand them bags of loot. I could not imagine that we’d actually:
-Cancel Team Spirit, Foal Eagle, and UFL, in response to North Korean protests
-Dismantle our own psychological operations efforts (radio, leaflets, and speakers) so as not to upset the tender sentiments of the northerners
-Pull 2nd ID away from the DMZ
-Have trouble relocating Yongsan to a shithole like Pyeongtaek
-Pull Patriot missiles away from Kwangju because a bunch of gaettongsae are bitching about them being there to protect them in the first place.
-Let wrongheaded commercial operations like Kaeseong and Kumkangsan give the North even more dosh
-We allowed the South Korean media and activist community to crucify some troops who ran over some school girls in a really tragic accident
In China, I run across plenty of trusted (by the regime) North Koreans, allowed out to do business for one quasi-government company or another. I can tell you with complete confidence that these people really believe what they are told about America, and are pathologically hostile. No Sunshine in Pyongyang, that’s for damned sure.
…And now the bastards have a nuke or two, does not matter how many.
The about-face I was hoping to see in South Korea just isn’t happening; from what I can tell, the populace lacks the moral fiber to even protect what it has.
Jonathan Last’s piece is picking up traction here, and as soon as the elections are over and done with, I look for the buzz to increase. Once again, if the American electorate wakes up and sees just how things have changed, then there will be a rather vicious groundswell backlash. South Koreans will be the new niggers to the American body politic, and they may as well all convert to Wahhabism while they’re at it.
Thing is, Uncle Floyd back in Alabama doesn’t know yet what a passle of snivveling assholes South Korean politicians have turned into. But when he and all the other aged rednecks who fought in Korea see what’s happened, you can just bet that every Kim, Lee, and Park in the state will be ridden out of town on a rail.
South Korea will learn all about American reactionary right wing politics, and quickly figure out that the constituency they needed to appease is not in North Korea, but in the non-bicoastal parts of the United States.
But if the majority of the electorate did know and appreciate what is happening, there would undoubtedly be some very ugly backlash against Korea.
Once more, I’d like to stress that if Americans, especially those who like myself are from the heartlands, knew just how little our contribution to Korea’s security and economic prosperity is appreciated by the bulk of the Korean public, not only would we withdraw our troops, but trade with Korea would suffer as well.
Not only is this wishful thinking, but it’s also wishing for a schadenfreude-laden, reprisal for hurt feelings type of thinking. Not content with an “amicable divorce”, there is clearly a contingent that would love to see the US play a part akin to that of the spurned and sour ex-wife who enlists the power of court & attorney to exact pain of crushing alimony and child support upon the hapless former husband.
Most Americans do not know or care about the world outside of their boundaries, much less Korea. When I tell an average Joe that I am Korean-American, without fail, the next thing I get asked is this: Are you from the North or the South? (If they knew anything about Korea at all). I even got asked this by a former GI who was stationed in Korea. Even these days, with the media buzzing about North Korea, KJI, and the nuke, people ask me that question as if it’s no different nowadays from the period before M*A*S*H became a nauseatingly repeated series of re-runs on a Saturday afternoon slot. If you are a jaemi-kyopo, or a return expat, try it. You can bet money on it with your buddies and assuredly expect to come out ahead.
The AARP-card-carrying, Korean War veteran crowd are dying out and the ones that are still alive are wasting away in nursing homes, sadly neglected by the Feddle Gummint, living on fixed income while trying to cope with the rising cost of healthcare and the ongoing nightmare of a byzantinely complicated, hopelessly convoluted, mismanaged, corrupt medical and prescription drug insurance establishment, and on Memorial Day, are parked outside of the entrance to Hanareum supermarket giving out flags for $5 bill charities.
In short, most Americans are too ignorant or too wrapped up in their own day-to-day concerns to be so concerned about what goes on in Korea, even if it is anti-Americanism. With FOX NEWS CHANNEL blaring day in and day out about Terrorism, post 9/11, the “next big attack”, bad-mouthing the Democraps, reinforcing the Retardicans, esp in this election season, and with most of the general public suffering from a terminal case of Iraq-fatigue…like…who will actually give two craps about what goes on in Korea?
The reprisal-minded, “lets-show-em!” expat finds himself alone in a sea of apathy back home.
As much as you wish it weren’t so, the AARP card-carriers are the ones who get off their asses and get out and vote. They are also the people holding onto the bulk of America’s wealth, in terms of property, investment, and cash in the bank. The AARP are the one group that no politician in his/her right mind will ignore, and expect to stay in office.
Maybe you’re too young to remember how fragile civil society in the United States can be, and are somehow hoping that things will never turn ugly. The wholesale targeting of Koreans during the LA riots in 1992 should be a lesson worth learning and taking into consideration.
FOX news can turn on a dime, like sharks smelling blood in the water. Should an outfit like theirs pick up on the fact that the South Korean government wants to water down sanctions to the point of irrelevance, -and even keep trading with the enemy, then they should be open to whatever consequences the American public visits on them. We only have a ceasefire in place with North Korea, not a peace treaty.
So don’t confuse potential consequences with what to you might look like a cheap, knee-jerk reprisal. With a trade agreement currently under consideration, the South Korean government should be very cautious when undertaking actions that might alienate the American public. All the president has to do is tell the US trade negotiators to put the hammer down. There’s a whole bag of tricks the president can resort to that don’t require any public debate or congressional approval whatsoever. While America has little leverage over North Korea, it has a mountain of it over the South.
Like North Korea, in many ways American society is not rational, and weird things will happen no matter how badly you wish them away. It’s why we have movie stars and pro wrestlers becoming governors and presidents.
“But if the majority of the electorate did know and appreciate what is happening, there would undoubtedly be some very ugly backlash against Korea.”
Sorry, but that just is not a reality. As many people have pointed out again and again, most Americans could care less about what’s happening in Korea. Maybe if massive Americans die for some reason in Korea, then maybe. Other then that, Korea is not like Japan or France or Britain or Germany where people perk up when something happens there. On the other hand, Korea? YAWN.
“-Cancel Team Spirit,
-Dismantle our own psychological operations efforts
-Pull 2nd ID away from the DMZ
-Have trouble relocating Yongsan
-Pull Patriot missiles away from Kwangju
-Let wrongheaded commercial operations like Kaeseong and Kumkangsan ”
Which all of them are non-emotional issues for most Americans. It’s nothing more then fundalmental differences between South Korea and the United States on how to deal with North Korea.
Serious and pressing issues - yes, but they are not issues that would touch most Americans personally in some way.
It’s not like Americans are being rounded up in South Korea and being beheaded. Until something like that happens, South Korea will remain in the back pages of the news. Furthermore, a I’ve read lot of Americans who agree and support South Korea’s Sunshine policy towards the North. There are just as many misguided Americans as there are misguided South Koreans. Take away some Neocons who maybe wishing the entire Korean peninsula gets blown to smithereens in the absence of Uncle Sam to vindicate the US, what’s left after that is just that, nothing more then a nice wishful thinking or day dreaming.
It’s overkill and it’s like killing an ant with a tank to talk about placing economic embargos on South Korea for hurt feelings and a Sunshine policy which has few remaining months left. Subtract the North Korean equation and South Korea has mostly supported to varying degrees, virtually most American foreign policies for 50 years.
bluejives and cm are right about the apathy, but in such an atmosphere more extreme actors can prevail and members of Congress do pay attention to people who make noise. I’d say the Uri Party and Sunshine Lite have few admirers among people who care about Korean affairs.
bluejives, should it really be a surprise that you’ve met some people who can’t tell North from South Korea? Those are two very small countries halfway around the world for them. Don’t forget that some Americans probably don’t know the difference between North and South Carolina.
Bluejives and cm are right. Korea assumes outsized importance to those of us who have some involvement with the place. Most Americans, though, have a better perspective. Look at the fact that the Michael Chang spy case is not making the news at all in the U.S.
BTW, next time a kyopo complains about Americans not knowing the difference between North and South Korea, keep Michael Chang in mind.
When you say “Our”, to whom are you referring?
“more extreme actors can prevail and members of Congress do pay attention to people who make noise.”
Even if the case, what action can they do? They’d have to come up with a damn good reason why South Korea needs to be treated like Cuba and Iran, when the US itself is doing nothing about countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and China - on the contrary. For these extreme actors to be taken seriously, they’d have to explain how South Korea (any more then Pakistan, Saudi, China) threatens the security, safety and/or existence of the United States and why immediate punitive action against South Korea is necessary. No human rights? No democracy? Because they burned our flags and hurt our feelings? Too many ESL teachers in Korea? What?
But seriously, I think the US can take several rational steps here, to let it be known to South Koreans where they stand. The US government must take some blame for giving out mixed signals that contributes to Roh government’s serious miscalculations about its relationship with the US.
Case in point, why is the US negotiating with South Korea, the Free Trade? Doesn’t that support Roh’s false assertions that the relationship with the US is all hunky dori? Same with all the talks of Visa waiver programs for South Koreans. Stop the Free Trade talks, stop all talks of Visa waiver program, reduce the number of Visas issued to South Koreans visitors and immigrants alike, and drastically reduce the number of South Korean students allowed in. It’s a point made for America, and it will make many South Koreans sit up and take notice.
It’s also good for South Korea in the long run. How? Firstly, this will help to slow the brain drain and the foreign exchange bleed. For instance, 87,000 Korean students studying in the US alone costs Korea 2 billion dollars a year - a conservative estimate, while too many of the brightest and the best are immigrating out . Second and most importantly, it will hasten the fall of the Sunshine policy and put a final nail on the coffin of the Uri Party. As for economic embargoes (although it will be very devastating for South Korea), not only it won’t work, it will also end up hurting American workers since America and South Korea’s economies that boast a 70 billion dollar trading relationship are too integrated. With even valid moral reasons, it’s dicey if boycotts do any good.
“Korea is a little country.”
In terms of land? Then Japan would be considered little, too.
In terms of economy? Then Russia and India would be considered little, too.
In terms of population? Then Spain and Canada would be considered little, too.
No wonder you ended up spending 9 years on DMZ. What did John Kerry say the other day?
Nonsense. They will simply continue to emigrate to their second choice, Canada (with its even more liberal immigration policy), much as they do now.
But at least it will reduce your namesis - Koreans residing in your country calling themselves Korean Americans.
Origami–good points, I just think China has serious, maybe deadly, internal problems, Japan’s status will decline rapidly and the Koreas are their own worst enemy, so the region will not eclipse the U.S. in stature or influence. So there
As for the rest–it’s the current S.K. government’s misuse (or non-use) of the alliance with the U.S. for Korea’s own best interests that is frustrating to see, and S.K. doesn’t need to be “punished” or boycotted because it isn’t “grateful,” it just needs some real leadership that recognizes what’s at stake.
Gaemee, I meant Korea is a little country, just like my 5 year-old is little when he screams for attention just for the hell of it. And I spent 9 years on the DMZ after doing a master’s at Stanford, then studying Korean.
I really don’t know if recent elections in US will change things. It seems like Democrats will be in Charge. ‘Wouldn’t surprise me with recent demographic changes in the Southwest, Republican Party as a whole is coming to an end.
I predict Democratic President in ‘08.
I think it’s about time we start asking S. Koreans what they want rather than what we want. It’s obvious American foreign policy is 50 years too late. This is no longer a Cold War issue. The world is changing. China is not our enemy, it’s much more complicated than that now.
If South Korea’s foreign policy no longer intersect with US there isn’t much we can do. They need to learn to figure out their problems on their own. They’ll probably screw up as much as we have in IRAQ but it’s their problem not ours, but telling them “to do this or else,” type of mentality don’t wash anymore.
America has serious problems of our own. I seriously doubt we will be able to solve them.
If you say so, Origami.
I hate to tell you this, but America is turning into another Mexico even as we speak. Believe me, I take no joy in saying this, but there is not going to be anything left here in few years.
http://www.freerepublic.com/fo.....omment?q=1
Origami, I’m getting the feeling you have issues with immigration.
What U.S. immigration policy has to do with U.S. security commitments to South Korea, I’m not entirely certain.
Well, as I write it’s early AM 8 Nov here in CONUS and the Democrats have won a convincing majority in the House and are very close to achieving a one-vote majority in the Senate. Dem-sympathetic commentators on US cable TV (MSNBC) are feeling pretty good about it, but all the commentary for the foreign policy reasons for this resulf focusesis on Iraq, not on reaction to Korea.
But the Nork nuclear test and previous ballistic missile test have brought the issue of Korea to the forefront too for the US public lately. As an interested Korea observer here in CONUS, I fully agree with Last that the US public in general does not yet comprehend the depth of anti-American sentiment in ROK.
I’m not sure what the new Dem House and Senate leadership will have to say about Korea, but it’ll be interesting to see what (if anything) they may say about it over the next few days.
My guess is that the Dems will take a quietly “conservative” stance toward any talk of US troop withdrawl from Korea, to compensate for a risk of looking “weak” on defense in general, while they try to figure out as a party just how hard to push for a withdrawl strategy from Iraq.
Too bad, as we (the US) long ago met the conditions for a ground troop withdrawl from Korea –that is to say, the very same conditions that the current US administration has imposed on itself for an Iraq withdrawal! (Ie, the achievement of a stable democratic government).
As far as I can tell, this is an original observation on my part. That is to say, I have yet to see any commentator on TV or in the media make it — or any politician from either US major party.
Too bad, we need to bring them out and back to US territory. Unlike the newspaper commentator, I think we can certainly support ROK (and Japan) defense from offshore, with only air and naval forces — to the extent ROK still wants it.
May it soon happen.
BTW, Robert, ref: your number #13 — it’s “per se”. One of those common “straight Latin” phrases that has made it into colloquial English (like “quid pro quo”).
Main Entry: per se
Function: adverb
Pronunciation: (”)p&r-’sA also per-’sA or (”)p&r-’se
Etymology: Latin
: by, of, or in itself or oneself or themselves : as such : INTRINSICALLY
Paul H.
My guess is that the Dems will take a quietly “conservative” stance toward any talk of US troop withdrawl from Korea, to compensate for a risk of looking “weak” on defense in general, while they try to figure out as a party just how hard to push for a withdrawl strategy from Iraq.
Too bad, as we (the US) long ago met the conditions for a ground troop withdrawl from Korea –that is to say, the very same conditions that the current US administration has imposed on itself for an Iraq withdrawal! (Ie, the achievement of a stable democratic government).
————————————————————–
Problem in Iraq is that too many American kids are getting blown up for OIL. I think people are catching on to Bush’s cruddy little
incursion to help out his oil buddies. That bastard’s going to rot in Hell. That crap had nothing to do with terrorism.
Anyway, I was just trying to explain to Robert that Republican Party maybe finished in the US. I see Democrats setting the foreign policy agenda from now on.
What I would say is that the N. Korean problem is overblown. As long as the two Koreas are divided, there will be nothing but finger pointing going on and lot of those fingers are pointing US’s way these days. I think it’s best if US can keep a low profile.
I believe US is thinking of reducing the numbers down to 20,000 forces and moving those forces a bit south. Rest of the forces can move to Guam. I believe flexibility is what US wants anyway.
The Aircraft Carrier Forces are also interested in relocating to Guam. I know
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap.....a_Iraq.php
There’s anti-US sentiment? Cry me a fucking river the whole world has anti-US sentiment. This is what happens when you go do things without consideration.
I lived in the US for a while and let me tell you how much racism I encountered so you Americans crying about anti-US sentiment is a joke at best.
I lived in the US for a while and let me tell you how much racism I encountered
You obviously have never been to the French suburbs.
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[...] Robert Koehler comments on a commentary by Philadelphia Inquirer columnist which was viewed by Korean media a “naked expression of anti-Korean sentiment”. In the article, the columnist called Japan and Taiwan US’ real allies. Oiwan Lam [...]