From the Chosun Ilbo:
The daily reported negative sentiment against France, which was seen as “arrogant” in treating the case. A Korean mother named Kim You-mi (36) with a nine-year-old son told the paper, “It was proven pretty quickly that Courjault was the father of the babies. Korean investigators carried out a scientifically accurate probe of the case. But France denounced us as having manipulated the case. If France does not accept its mistake, it is because many French are still racists and colonialists. France is arrogant and negative toward Korea.“
Sadly, Koreans’ lofty vision of France has been dashed:
The daily also quoted a Slovak woman married to a French expatriate in Korea as saying, “France was a paradise of perfumes, fashion and cheese in the eyes of Koreans, a place of dreams and fantasies.” Now, she said, many French people here “are pretty embarrassed.”
Hmmm… cheese.
(HT to Jodi)
22 Comments
Don’t cry, Korea. You can still get cheese from the USFK black market.
Koreans bitching about arrogance….ghod, what a topsy-turvy world we are living in.
I suppose the rest of the world should have just accepted Hwang Woo Suck’s “scientific accuracy” too.
And now France shall receive the full scorn of united Corea for dashing North Korea’s ch’emyon.
I too thought “arrogant French” was an oxymoron. Sadly, my image of the place is now shattered as well.
Hello? Where are those Kangwha documents the French promised after getting the TGV contract? Still on that slow boat to Incheon?
Hmmm, so this there is negative Korean public sentiment because France is 1) skeptical Korean scientific integrity, and 2) immediately suspected police racial bias against foreigners in Korea?
Koreans should consider that this is what happens to your national reputation when a fraud and charlatan like Hwang WooSuk engineers a massive and idiotic global scientific fraud that wastes the global genetics research communities time for months, with the nationalistic cheerleading of the Korean government and public enabling him all the way.
As for #2, well, that there is no justice whatever in the Korean justice system for any foreigner is an opinion I have firmly come to believe after a tidal wave of outrageous accounts in my time here. I will not bother to post examples. Suffice to say, the French or any government absolutely should approach the Korean justice system with extreme skepticism and, in fact, an assumption that there is a high chance of lying and distortion involved.
That said, Koreans should also remember that it’s nothing personal, the French consider themselves and their system superior to all others regardless of race or region.
Wow, first Switzerland and now France. I guess the Germans will do something to upset the locals next.
Then the “cycle will be complete” - Darth Vader.
We have some French on the 6th floor of our building, who work for the owners of a plant we are building in Qatar. They have been acting like a bunch of a**holes since day one, so I can’t help but think that the French are a bunch of arrogant, whining, and good for nothing a**holes.
I think the French had every right to skeptical of Korea’s police investigation, but when the French confirmed the Korean investigation, didn’t they act appropriately? And wasn’t it the French media that began to criticize French skepticism in the first place?
This incident is not an example of French arrogance or racism; it is an example of just how distrustful the rest of the world has become of the Korean police and justice system. That is Korea’s fault.
The cops in Korea f*cked up the “freezer baby” case royally, so quel dommage for Korea. It took staggering incompetence to let the two prime suspects leave the country–whose fault was that?
A quote from one ignorant Korean woman makes for good sensationalism, but in the end it’s the Korean authorities who should hang their heads in shame.
The ‘article’ doesn’t answer a few of my questions, mainly, have South Korea and France signed an extradition treaty,two, is there a country in the world that would not conduct their own investigation into the murder of two of its ‘citizens’ abroad if the suspects are in their custody (and wouldn’t France have some jurisdiction over the crime), and, three, is there a country in the world that wouldn’t investigate the evidence themselves before extraditing one of their citizens abroad to stand trial?
Brendon? Anyone?
Obviously, if the anwer is ‘yes’ for any of my questions, you have to question the paper’s journalistic integrity.
Hugh, even if there was no Hwang Woo Suk, and even if Korean justice system is perfect, the results would have been the same - the French lawyers and the press would have reacted exactly the same. That’s because Hwang Woo Suk and Korean justice system was a non factor in the French press.
Read one of the French posters from Jodi’s page.
“The French usually do not know anything about Korea, that was the only problem.”
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7. Christian Rinderknecht - October 19, 2006
Jodi, I am a Frenchman who reads the main newspapers there everyday. The major French newpapers reported partial and sometimes contradictory informations until the DNA tests were made in France. The reason? Even if Korea if much more popular since the 2002 football worldcup, I am afraid that nobody cares in France, e.g., still too many believe that Korea is a third-world country. I guess this has to do with colonialism indeed: it gives a larger view of the world, but only the colonised one. Then the positive tests there gave a strong argument to the police to “cook” (as said in French) this monster — with very good results.
About extradition, the French authorities have done it in the past and will do in the future, I am sure. In this case, I don’t know anything about the legal aspects (treaties, retroactivity, jurisdictions etc.). Note that one baby was killed in France, so France seems a plausible place to instruct and judge the complete case. And, as a side note, in France the jail sentences can be pretty heavy for this kind of serial crimes. (Don’t know in Korea.)
The accusation of French arrogance comes often from citizens of powerful countries who are displeased when a friend disagrees once in a time (for example, the USA used more their veto right at the UN than France). Some speak loud, most do not, *but* think loud nevertheless. Loud enough? There can be different ways to see the world, right?
There are arrogant French, but, in my experience, not more than among Americans. The French just love to debate, criticise everything, in their country and outside. They don’t seek for agreement at the cost of their opinion. That does not mean that they REALLY hate everything and everybody. This is a cultural trait that is not shared by Americans (they tend to search agreement in a meeting, formal or friendly, for instance). That is all.
I actually found the lawyer of the couple (now of Mr only) quite paranoid and insulting towards the Korean police. But who cares what a lawyer says out of a court room? The critics I make about the French papers is that they let their readers think that what this lawyer said was a possibility, even if it was not backed up explicitly. This blindness is recognised today in a column by Laurent Greilsamer in (in French). He starts wondering about the blindness of the people close to the couple and ends with the blindness of the press, the blindness of the whole French people, who doubted the news from Korea until the French DNA tests. Welcome atonement.
As a last note, these doubts, in my opinion, had nothing to do with the Hwang affair, which was little commented in France and completely forgotten since a long time. Same for the Korean judicial system.
The French usually do not know anything about Korea, that was the only problem. Politically, there is no issue between these countries, except these boring books (I skimmed over one of them: mainly about rites and protocols) taken by force, but studied and protected from the Japanese:-) I hope they will come back soon to Korea, so the nationalistic right-wing will have to find something else to feed the ignorance of the Korean people.
Ah, as a corollary, of course, if France has/had a glamour/romantic image in Korea, it is only due to the US influence in Korea: the USA HAS (I don’t like the politically correct “have”, here, you know, I am French:) a glamour image of France, probably since US troops were *welcomed* to end WWII. At least, according to what I see regularly in US movies and series where French are characters or is evoqued. It seems that this little ignorance has been propagated with good intentions… But this is inevitable and completely harmless — except if taken seriously by some ajuma.
Regarding French skepticism about the DNA tests and the inquest in general – it was the Courjaults and their lawyer who derided the work of Seoul’s finest. And they don’t exactly represent “France”.
If you’ve read my translations of many French articles, you are aware that never did the prosecution voice skepticism about the tests. They asked for a copy of the file, saying let’s wait and see what’s in it, and when they got it, they ran their own tests – on top of jurisdiction issues, let’s not forget that Mrs C’s DNA samples taken in Korea were tentative at best, since they were taken from objects, not herself. Something that would be akin to hearsay in a testimony… Running second tests from samples taken on the person is indeed a good idea… – and as a result they charged the wife with murder, and the hubby might be charged too. All this within the framework set by the cooperation treaty Korea and France signed in the 90s. So where’s the beef?
Although France has been known to extradite its citizen as recently as a few months ago – to Belgium – it is probable that the Courjaults will be handled in Tours, and won’t see Korea ever again. Koreans should be happy, as my taxes will foot that particular bill, not theirs…
And to answer a question above – there’s no extradition treaty between France and Korea – and let’s not forget that these treaties usually concern sending back home citizens of the other country.
No extradition treaty exists between France and South Korea?
Even if France does not have a policy of extraditing its own citizens, I think this Courjault case should be handled by Korean justice system and this “exemplary mother, affectionate, generous, balanced and fulfilled.” French woman, as described by her relatives, should be investigated in a FREEZING interrogate room in Seoul. IF not, at least, I wish, the French justice system reject the Mental disorder card from her side.
Well, she is alleged to have been responsible for the death of one of her babies before they even left France, so I guess those cheese-eating wine swillers (just kidding, dda) have first dibs on her.
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CM: Ah, as a corollary, of course, if France has/had a glamour/romantic image in Korea, it is only due to the US influence in Korea: the USA HAS (I don’t like the politically correct “have”, here, you know, I am French:) a glamour image of France
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????
Isn’t this glamourous image of France 40 years old?
Personally, I’d describe the French as terrorist-supporters, socialists, arrogant, nasty, racist, and bitchy.
It’s quite common knowledge that the French hate Americans, it’s easy to understand though that it’s simply motivated by jealousy. Also, I’ve heard from many Asians that racism in France is rampant toward Asians in particular. This sort of thinking makes one wonder if saving France from the Nazis was the right thing to do after all.
France may be the only country to have lost more wars than Korea and Italy combined.
–Remort
Remort, years before Americans had any idea that muslim terrorists could get it in their heads to bring the war to Western cities, Paris was bombed several times.
As for the rest of your troll, how nice…
Also, I’ve heard from many Asians that racism in France is rampant toward Asians in particular.
Not necessarily. I’ve heard differently, with some saying that the French deplore Americans, but if you’re an Asian-American, they’ll just assume you’re just an Asian (which usually means a moneyed Japanese tourist in most of Europe) and get cut some slack on the America-bashing. Basically, it’s all bullshit.
I’ll share an anecdote: I was in the Paris Metro standing in line to buy one of those pre-paid cards to use the subway. I instinctively figured that the French would be more cooperative and helpful if I took the pain to communicate simple matters with them in their own tongue, instead of just speaking English like a stupid, generic American. So at the booth, the lady sees me (obviously a foreigner of some sort) and I tell her in my best, cobweb-dusted, high school French Je voudrais achete un Paris Visite pour trois jour. Now there was this impatient Frenchman standing near me who wanted to cut ahead of this slow French-speaking Asian foreigner. He tried to do that and the clerk gave him some nasty, rapid-fire tongue-lashing upon which he cowered back to his proper place and then she composed herself and proceeded to give her full attention to me.
I was in Paris only, and to me, Paris seemed like just another New York City, so if anyone was seemed rude, it was because it’s a big city, with a big city mentality, and everyone’s busy and in a rush.
In the brasseries, the waiters will be extremely curt with you, but that’s only because they have to be efficient to run their business.
“Les cons ça ose tout, c’est d’ailleurs à ça qu’on les reconnait !”
Idiots will do anything, that’s actually the way to recognize them
Famous quote from an old movie. In Paris, which prolly has the highest percentage of assholes per square inch in France, the locals will do that to each other too – you were not just singled out because you were foreign; you just got in the way. Happened to me too – I just happen to have the language skills to deal with it, or, if you will, most of the people don’t have the language skills to deal with anyone but their ilk. But they can sure get annoying without speaking…
As for waiters, brisk attitude is one thing, but Paris waiters *have to* be unpleasant. By law. Or something. Not that the rest of the so-called “service industry” is doing much better.
Interesting article for people still wanting to follow this case.