The Uri Party, on the defensive since North Korea’s nuke test, is fighting back against Grand National Party criticism of its North Korea policies by blaming the United States.
BTW, more “The World According to Kim Dae-jung”
“Because the United States is making it so that North Korea can’t live, North Korea came to commit this atrocious act… The United States must talk directly with North Korea and talk with even the Devil to do what’s right.”
Don’t blame me… I’m just the translator.
Sphere: Related Content
101 Comments
This theory is very popular all throughout the world, including Canada and within the US itself - that Bush did nothing to talk with the North Koreans, while preoccupied with the wrong war in Iraq. Don’t blame me.. I too am a messenger.
Bush blames Clinton. Kerry blames Bush. Rice blames Albright.
Democrats blaming Bush and co. Repubs blaming Clinton and co.
The ultimate blame game.
It all goes to show you. Everyone messed up huh ?
Except for the russians and the Chinese. They seemed to have coached the dear leader well. The dear leader must be sending his thank you notes to putin and hu by now.
We should have let those goons dump Kim Dae-jung in the SEA OF JAPAN in 1976.
It may be a very popular theory, but thoughtful observers are not yet extinct. See Gerard Baker’s column in the Times of London:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/a.....70,00.html
This is a very different—in the United States, Bush is being blamed for talking a big game but sitting on his hands and doing nothing while P’yang built the bomb, all the while preoccupied with the “wrong war,” they say, in Iraq. The Uri Party, on the other hand, is saying something completely different, namely, that those big meanies the Americans threatened and bullied poor North Korea into doing something stupid.
A question to any expert in this matter.
What is the bone of contention between N.K and U.S.A ?
What’s stopping them from signing a peace treaty ?
What’s the demand set forth by N.K that’s so hard to meet ?
I’d appreciate it. Thank you very much.
Ok, let’s play Lucifer’s Advocate:
So then, why did NK build the bomb? Because they were threatened by the Chinese, the Russians, South Korea?
America pokes her nose in everybody’s business around the world but then fails to take proper responsibility when shit hits the fan. This is one of the reasons why the world, not just North Korea, hates America.
Here’s a novel idea…It’s the fault of the North Koreans. They did the tests, after all.
Eh?
Nothing. North Korea doesn’t want one. At least one that doesn’t come with tons of aid and a U.S. withdrawal from South Korea.
Nothing. Just no reason for the United States to talk to North Korea. What is there to talk about? They want to be paid NOT to develop a nuke arsenal (while they continue to do it anyway), and the United States doesn’t want to pay them. Sounds like a short conversation to me. The U.S. won’t pay North Korea, and North Korea will continue to produce visually pleasing but economically and strategically useless nuclear weapons until they either collapse, find an American president dumb enough to pay them or decide to make a strategic decision to give up their nukes for better relations with Washington.
Is the instinct to blame everyone except themselves (i.e., Koreans) genetic? cm and bluejives, North Korea is the way it is not because “the U.S. is making it so North Korea cannot live” (funny that the U.S. is the largest donor of food aid to North Korea), but because North Korea has been ruled for decades by a demented family of sadists. All North Korea needs is for Kim to give up. It is true that the U.S. meddles too often, but in this case, the blame is squarely on Kim. As hard as it is for Koreans to blame one of their co-ethnics, that does not change the reality.
“The Uri Party, on the other hand, is saying something completely different, namely, that those big meanies the Americans threatened and bullied poor North Korea into doing something stupid.”
Robert, you’ll be shocked to know that that’s what a sizable amount of people up here in Canada think. Just read all the comments in Globe and Mail for instance. And I don’t think Canada is hardly alone with Anti Bush, Anti American thoughts when it comes to American foreign policy.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montr.....1poll.html
They weren’t threatened by the United States. Even Roh Moo-hyun admitted that the “U.S. threat” was nonexistent or overstated. And besides, the North Korean nuke program goes all the way back to the 1980s when Pyongyang was safe and snug under the Soviet nuclear umbrella. This has nothing to do with combating a “threat”—if anything, the nuke program has made North Korea a bigger target. Nope, it’s all about the Benjamins.
As opposed to what? Other countries who don’t do jack shit until the shit hits the fan, after which they call the Americans?
Damn it, cm, I blame Canada for the nuke test
And dogbertt, I guess you can do three things, improve upon your poor reading comprehensions, take that chip off that small shoulders of yours, and then go fuck yourself.
Speaking truth to kyopos never fails to set them off.
“Damn it, cm, I blame Canada for the nuke test”
Of course, I don’t blame the US for the NK nuke test (sorry dogbreath, to dissapoint you), the blame squarely lies with the NK and the SK lefty party that has given money for their nuke program.
correct me if I’m wrong.
1. The N.K had the nuclear program going first.
2. U.S offered incentives to N.K to stop their nuclear program.
3. Before N.K started developing nuclear program, no one could have cared less about the faith of N.K’ean regime or its people.
If you don’t know an answer to a question, I rather you didn’t answer anything. Makes one lose respect.
“salutary neglect” anyone familiar with it ?
Are you sure they didn’t mean Japan? That’s usually how this goes…
Nothing like the smell of bigotry first thing in the morning…
“Speaking truth to kyopos never fails to set them off.”
Sorry, dogbreath, but you amuse me when you say “speaking truth”.
It’s deliberate misrepresentation of fraud to claim that I blame the US for the NK nuke test (when I said nothing of that sort) - only based on the fact that you think I’m a Kyopo.
cm,
I see the stated stats are from the historically spoon fed regions of Canada. Quebec and Ontario have their heads so far up their asses I am surprised they even know about anything outside of their own borders.
The only thing that disappoints me, cm, is that in the event of war in Korea you will be safe in Canada, continuing to mouth off.
And I forgot to post…while a bit of a stretch, blaming America for 9/11, nukes, etc is kind of akin to blaming a rape victim because of the way they dressed, no?
Why can’t they be like the American left and just blame everything on ’society?’ Sigh.
I did answer them. You just refuse to understand. And likewise, if you can’t ask an intelligent question, don’t ask anything. Makes one lose respect. Wise ass.
See above.
And yeah, I’m familiar with “salutary neglect.” Feel free to enlighten us as to how it applies to the North Korea situation.
Hey, cm, the “father of the North Korean nuke program,” Kyong Wonha, got his masters and PhD from McGill. Now I’m DEFINITELY blaming Canada!
The only entity I hope will have a shorter lifespan than the Uri Party is their mother ship, the DPRK.
“The only thing that disappoints me, cm, is that in the event of war in Korea you will be safe in Canada, continuing to mouth off.”
Did I mouth off dogbreath? I guess I did, but only against you, and you only.
I’ll take you more seriously if you can form one sentence without uttering ‘damn dirty kyopos I hope they all die’. lol.
Blame the US? Hmmm…why not? It works emotionally, and truth be damned. Logic has never been a Korean strong point.
Can we avoid the kyopo bashing, please.
Mizar5, aren’t you claiming that you’re one of the stinking Kyopos?
Do you know the secret handshake?
aren’t we bitchy.
and no, you didn’t answer my question.
do you know why they never signed a peace treaty ?
can you answer that ?
and I thought you were amicable. showed me.
hey, fuck you too. m.f’er
ghola—If you want real “expert” opinion, the Chosun Ilbo ran a Q&A with some of your questions two days ago. You might want to check it out.
Have a nice life, ghola.
Hey bobby, nice to see the level of discourse continuing to rise!
Actually, just wanted to pop in and say thanks again for the excellent coverage of all that has been happening. Being out of the loop lately, it is nice to know I can still come to the ‘hole’ for the latest and greatest.
I’ll return to my lurking again…
Intelligent, reasoned discourse—it’s what we strive for here at the Marmot’s Hole
Nice to have you pop in again. I know you’ve probably got your mind on other things these days, but don’t be a stranger.
I did like Gerard Baker’s article as well “gray hat”. It seems the most plausible that I have read so far. I only wish that the wind would shift more often towards China and Russia.
It’s likely that the test was more for internal consumption than anything else. The test was probably conducted to stir up nationalistic sentiment because the North Korean government’s popularity is waning. That would explain the small size of the explosion (and the possibility that it was faked).
Wow, 37 comments in 1:30? This has got to be a new Marmot’s Hole record….
What has gotten into KDJ in his old age? Surely he wasn’t always like this…heck, wasn’t it under Reagan, of all people, that his life was spared and he was able to live peacably in exile in the US, rather than meet a miserable end under Chun Doo Hwan?
Plunge! Good to see you around. Hope you are well.
Gray Hat (#4): thanks for the link. That article was well worth reading.
NK has been pursuing a nuke program for years, since long before the current US administration. The only difference is that it used to be clandestine (for the most part, except for when it first came to light circa ‘94), whereas since ‘02-’03, it’s been out in the open.
OK, its not America’s fault. But let me see if I understand the expat reasoning on NK:
NK was always intent on building the bomb anyway.
But we cant bomb NK.
So we threaten NK and that makes them even more determined to build a bomb.
Meanwhile, we cross our fingers and pray and hope that NK collapses on its own. We also hope that a NK cornered into a desperate, nothing-to-lose, beseiged on all sides situation doesnt push the button just before they go down in a blaze of final glory.
Meanwhile, any attempt at engagement is folly because after all, if given a choice between a small however remote-seeming chance at a successful detente is too uncertain and appeasement-like versus the definite certainty of continuing escalation of tensions which of course means zero chance of detente and a 100% certainty of NK actually possessing the bomb.
Somewhere in the Chinese politburo, an observer is busy writing the book: “How Americans Negotiate.”
Bluejives, I can build a strawman as well the next guy.
Bluejives, have you forgotten that the NK government is basically pure evil? Say what you will about American neo-colonialism or whatever else, some of it is true. But at least Americans can eat 3 meals a day, travel where they want, work in whatever field they want and speak out about their government when they want. They are a billion times more free than NKs. And though they might be slaves to the almighty dollar, its a christ load better than starving in a work camp.
Kim Jong Il doesn’t care about his people nor the people or neighbouring countries. His government is criminal, producing heroin which might not be a problem in your morally perfect glorious 1 blooded utopia South Korea but its ruins peoples lives in other countries. He orders people from SK and Japan to be kidnapped or killed. He backs out the 6 party talks. Kim Jong Ill DOES NOT WANT to tone down his shit. He does not want to stop hurting the people of North Korea. You can blame America all you want, but the reality is that KJI is a frigging mad man and 99% of the problem is him and his government.
The question you should be asking is, “Should America (and the world) engage and let KJI get his way, get more fuel, more food, more help, which he WILL use to keep himself and his EVIL government in power and might just save some lives (because technically him and his best mates are people too) OR not let him get his way which forces him into a corner where he needs to change but at the same time making the situation more dangerous? Both options have pros and cons.
When you think about this, you must remember that NK is not a normal country, America isn’t “bullying” it for no reason and people are DYING there as you read this. It is a VERY serious issue which shouldn’t be summed up with “America screwed it up, it’s Americas fault.” I think its the god damned world’s fault. How this prick and his dad lasted this long got away with so much murder and evil is amazing. While we bicker and carry on with shit, people are dying. This is something most people seem to forget. Everyone needs to focus more energy on ending this mofo and his government. South Korea needs to be ready to take the economic brunt, stop being god damn pussies about it and accept that its not easy and people will have to give up their second car, their 4th new cell phone this year or friggin wasted English lessons for their spazzed out kids. The world of course will help. Billions will flow in thru aid. This needs to happen, collapse needs to happen, there is no other way. The sunshine policy will take too long, how many will suffer and die while SK tries to fix a North Korean government that doesnt want to change?!
If pushing KJI into a corner and forcing him to back down can be acheived through a blockade then I’m all for it. God knows the sunshine policy only keeps him in power and allows the killing and misery to continue.
“North Korea will continue to produce visually pleasing but economically and strategically useless nuclear weapons until they either collapse…”
Not sure they are too economically or strategically useless…
“Wow, 37 comments in 1:30? This has got to be a new Marmot’s Hole record….”
its Friday night in Korea and the expat bloggers have got home from work
I guess expat bloggers are the type that don’t get many dates.
The estimable Don Kirk offers an often overlooked reason why Kim Jong-il wants nukes:
Actually, the real reason North Korea needs nukes is to build up the power of Kim Jong-il, responsible for the deaths of about 2 million of his people by disease, starvation, executions or prolonged death in prisons. A nuclear test, goes the logic, gives Kim the sense of safety from retribution from his own people.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HJ13Dg01.html
To this I would add the idea that “Midget Turd” Kim is an eminently disposable person on the international stage — so he is raising the cost of disposing him by brandishing WMD.
dlatn (#44): er, all those 37 comments were posted in the middle of the day Korea Time. I guess it was a slow day at work.
Although half the commenters (including myself) aren’t in Korea…
Oh, forget it. Anyhow, I’m pretty sure it’s a Marmot’s Hole record.
ghola wrote:
aren’t we bitchy.
and no, you didn’t answer my question.
do you know why they never signed a peace treaty ?
can you answer that ?
Wise ass
and I thought you were amicable. showed me.
hey, fuck you too. m.f’er
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A peace treaty?
‘Easier said than done’ … given the parties involved, the ‘negotiations’ would still be on-going today.
For the ‘intricacies’ associated with negotiating with the North Koreans, your time would be well-spent in acquainting yourself with the following treatises:
‘How Communists Negotiate’ by C.Turner Joy
and
‘Over the Line: North Korea’s Negotiating Strategy’ by Chuck Downs
Please don’t yell at me.
I guess we could…
Blame Canada! Blame Canada! After all, the NK nuke technology came from Pakistan, which got it from the Candu reactors that they got in the 70s.
In reality, no one is to blame but the North Koreans who probably never gave up devlopment even when they made the ‘94 agreement for fuel oil and light water reactors.
Hah, hah…and Robert pointed out upthread that Kyong Wonha—allegedly the “father” of the NK nuke program—went to McGill university (after defecting to SK during the Korean war, then after completing his studies, returning to NK, after finally defecting again in 2002).
We Canadians are too damn sanctimonious for the most part, anyhow.
I just hope this doesn’t lead to economic sanctions against Canada….
RE: 46. Robert Kaplan on NPR a couple nights ago (no link, sorry) said he thinks part of the reason North Korea went ‘nucular’ is that’s it more afraid of China than the U.S. I had to go so didn’t find out if he meant territorial ambitions or something else. But it’s definitely another area where I disagree with Kaplan.
You bring up an interesting point there, Cory. BTW, is it Corey or Cory?
Anyway, now here’s an angle that just occurred to me. It’s probably not at all far-fetched to think that beneath the surface, the Norks are suspicious of the Chinese as well. I’m willing to bet that the Norks are just as much wary of being Finlandized by China as they are by regime-change efforts by the US. It’s just that they cant be too loud about that right now because, well China happens to hold their sole lifeline at the current moment.
Koreans, North and South, do not trust anybody, even those who appear to be allies. China, Japan, US…they all harbor ulterior motives in their designs on the Korean peninsula. If the Chinese squeeze from the West and America/Japan from the East, Koreans, North and South, will once find themselves hammered between behemoths. The North will realize eventually that playing silly poker games with the US or relying too much on China is not going to be in their best interests. They will realize that the best option will be to cast their lot entirely with the South. The South, in turn, will have to kick the Americans out of the peninsula, and face a brave new world. Both Koreas ought to kick out everybody else’s meddling, whether it be the US, China, Japan, and Russia. Kick them out, reject this division of the Korean peninsula cause first by Japanese colonization and later by the contamination of foreign, Western ideologies, and settle the dust on Korean’s own terms. The North and South will find in each other a newfound common goal, healing the wounds of the past 50+ years, the scarring division of the Motherland, protecting the identity of the Korean nation and restoring the honor of her people.
China will try to surreptitiously “annex” North Korea if given a chance. Just like what they are doing in the Russian Far East, deliberating flooding in thousands of Chinese migrants to take over the local economies and infrastructure. Their Koguryo historical reinterpretation efforts is a dead giveaway. North Korea does not want to end up being China’s next Tibet anymore than they enjoy being pegged for regime collapse by America. But the Chinese are a shrewd lot and unlike loud, blustering Americans who openly blurt out their intentions, the Chinese will be far more cunning and subdued while they carry out their own agenda quietly while attracting as little attention as possible.
I think the Norks are clever enough to realize this on their own without the benefit of screaming headlines or longwinded treatises from think-tank papermills. Better to allow themselves to be reunited with the South, despite the South’s democracy and all the glittering, superficial trappings of Western bourgeois decadency. But in order for this to happen, the South DOES have to own up and KICK THE US OUT ONCE AND FOR ALL from the peninsula. The North must wean itself off Chinese influence and the South must do likewise with American influence. Only and only then can reunification and engagement be approached in realistic terms.
I find it odd that just as South Koreans, in one of the relatively few salutory effects from Kim Jong-il’s purported nuclear test, are discovering just how much a load of crap this uber-nationalistic uriminjokggiri talk is, we have an American of Korean descent embracing it whole hog.
RE: 53. Richardson
You know what else is odd? Just replace “South Korea” with “Israel” and you’d probably be singing a way different tune. Same with most of official America, from the highest corridors of Policy down to the average joe (if they give a shit about foreign policy to begin with, that is), with the exception of the Stormfront-style White Nationalist crowd, of course. So what’s with the double standard?
Don’t ever wonder why no one takes you seriously after you attempt to compare Israel to North Korea. Oh, and you can stop ‘poisoning the well’ why you’re at it. What did you do, find a list of logical fallacies and decide to break every one in comments sections?
Yeah, man, that’s too sloppy even to use the dignified Latin term “non sequitor” to describe. Count to 100 before you hit the Post button next time you’re angry or feeling the magic mushrooms come on.
Uh huh..when was I comparing Israel to North Korea? I said:
“Just replace “South Korea” with “Israel” and you’d probably be singing a way different tune.”
See the difference? Basic remedial reading comprehension…you guys might want to look into it.
BJ, it still stands. I suggest you find the afore mentioned list, read it, try to avoid the fallacies.
Oh, and as for the ROK kicking out the U.S. - Juche! Arms race! Thinking like that is what made Korea a pushover at the turn of the last century, but I think some in the ROK remember the lesson well enough not to repeat it.
^ reply to Dickson
Marlboro Man,
The presence of foreign troops in other people’s countries is always a sticky issue. If I recall correctly, I believe that was one of the principal reasons for Osama bin Laden’s animosity toward the United States, the fact that the foot soldiers of the Infidels were treading upon holy ground in Saudi Arabia. Even though, SK may still be America’s ally (officially on paper anyway), the average Korean resents the US occupation and would prefer otherwise. No people in any nation I can think of liked having US troops in their backyard, in their private opinion. This would include European allies such as Germany and other NATO states. This would also include Japan, although right now Japan is latching onto Uncle Sam like a damn Siamese twin out of sheer necessity.
Personally, I think the withdrawal of US troops from the Korean peninsula is good for both Korea and the US. It would clear a way for both Koreas to realize detente on their own terms while the US is relieved of one less headache. I dont think you would doubt this either. No matter what, anything involving North Korea is first and foremost a Korean issue and affects Koreans the most. So why shouldnt Koreans have the right to be able to settle this mess on their own terms while minimizing outside intervention which only complicates matters further?
But of course, America has and always will do what America wants, regardless of what a small country like SK has to say about the matter, despite the fact that this is Korea’s turf that we’re talking about. America will likely still play Empire even long after Bush is out of office but thinking like that is what got the Romans into trouble starting from around 400AD.
But hey. If America insists on doing incredibly stupid things like waste half a trillion dollars on wars that make no fucking sense and spreading itself thin all around the world while the feddle gummint cant even restore an entire metropolis destroyed in a hurricane, schools are left to rot, health care and social security turn into fiscal nightmares, the middle class continues to do a vanishing act…why, who’s to stop them?
As for Koreans, they may call it Juche or whatever but some Americans still remember their own version of it which was called the spirit of independence or something like that. I believe most thinking, conscientious and intellectual Koreans would realize that more than half a century of playing the role of client states of bigger powers has gotten both Koreas nowhere. Far seeing and progressive South Koreans will also realize that unless the Republic moves to free herself from the US military occupation and overdependence on America, SK will not mature (like the grown adult who never moves out of Mom’s basement), will always be beholden to conflicting US whims, never realize a halfway decent independent policy, and never be in the steering position of their own destiny as a nation and a people.
Both Koreas are releasing that as long as the peninsula remains a divided house, both the South and the North are relegated to being nothing but pawns on the geopolitical chessboard dominated by bigger powers. North Korea has already proven beyond a shred of doubt that they have the defiance. China and Japan looms in the background encroaching upon the sovereignty and integrity of both Koreas while US military presence continues to be the cement mortar of the division of the peninsula. The question is does South Korea have the balls to take full control, and measure up to the same level, arrive at the same page, and look their Northern brethren squarely in the eye on behest of the common goals of restoring the peninsula, realizing a unified Korea to her true unfulfilled glory, and protecting the honor and integrity of the Chosun minjok from the common enemy of foreign meddling and intervention?
sewing, India did its first nuclear test in 1974 with plutonium it produced in its CIRUS reactor, which is a Canadian-designed ‘research’ reactor that is used to produce plutonium (however, Canada and the US stipulated in the contract that India must use it for peaceful purposes). Canada tried unsuccesfully to convince Pakistan to upgrade its Candu reactor’s non-prolipheration safeguards shortly after India’s test. Canada broke off nuclear cooperation with Pakistan in 1977.
bluejives, if North Korea truly was interested in a peaceful reunification, the presence of American troops in South Korea wouldn’t be an issue to them.
Someguy:
Geez, can’t I make any jokes at the expense of “our home and native land”?
I know the lyrics to O Canada and God Save the Queen, have lived in Canada all my life, drink Canadian beer (okay, mainly from the small breweries…not Molsons), spell “colour” the way it should be pronounced, and even know the correct way to pronounce “lieutenant.” Isn’t that enough?
I was just facetiously riffing on what tmc1233 wrote.
D’oh! Meant, “spell ‘colour’ the way it should be spelled.“
Extra points:
I used to listen to Peter Gzowski, know who Norman MacLaren was, my parents went to Expo 67, and watch Lloyd Robertson because he’s practically the only anchor left who speaks with the old CBC accent. Surely, that’s enough?
(Yes, everyone, this is OT, but surely some needed relief after BJ’s extemporaneous bit upthread?)
BJ, just for you - a little dose of reality;
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HI09Dg02.html
and this is for clarity on what the hell is going on, right now;
http://www.dprkstudies.org/200.....explained/
Korea cannot play it alone. If it tries, it will fail, badly.
You’ve completely lost it.
In Comment 12, Robert hit the nail right on the head when he said that North Korea built the bomb for their monetary value, not for the security. The artillery and missiles North Korea has aimed at Seoul already gives them plenty of security. The North’s nukes were built for blackmail and, probably, for sale. Blackmail is their game, together with counterfeiting, drug and arms trade, and almost any illegal activity that will earn them the money they need to keep their regime in power.
South Korea’s North Korean policy is simple-minded. South Korea would like to see the US and others pay off North Korea and establish diplomatic relations, hoping that it would somehow lead to social and economic change.
South Koreans decided sometime in the 1990s that reunification would cost too much, so they came up with their “Sunshine Policy” to try to reduce the costs by getting the rest of the world to first build up North Korea’s economy. The problem with that simple-minded logic is that it assumed that Kim Jong-il and his regime wanted social and economic change that would have, by necessity, included a certain amount of increased democratic freedoms. However, democratic freedoms do not fit in well with a brutal, dictatorial regime that survives only by eliminating such freedoms, and Kim Jong-il knows that. That is why North Korea has chosen blackmail, drug trafficing, counterfeiting, and illegal arms trade over legal trade in services and manufactured goods.
Some people say that North Korea’s nuclear blast proves that Bush’s North Korean policy has failed, but I think that just shows that those people are ignorant of Bush’s policy. The Bush administration probably realized long ago that North Korea was not going to give up its nuclear weapons, no matter what the US did, so Bush decided that it would be better not to be sucker for their blackmail game. The 6-party talks were designed to keep the door opean so that all the concerned parties and the rest of the world would be able to see exactly what North Korea was up to. North Korea’s nuclear blast has further isolated North Korea, which means Bush’s policy has been a success, not a failure. The policy that failed was the “Sunshine Policy.”
some commenters, although seemingly sensible, tend to make a mistake by getting into a debate with some not-so-sensible commenters, and thus give the latter a wrong impression as if they can be taken seriously and encourage them to come back with more crap.
Gaemee, you have a promising future as either a diplomat or a tightrope walker.
I’m assuming you’re not referring to my exchange with Someguyinkorea…
Bluejives really needs to stick to fixing computers or apartments or spewing racialist diatribes. His geopolitical views are every bit as risible as his expat psychoanalyses.
Well, like I’ve always said in the past, if anyone’s got any better ideas about what must be done about NK besides cracking KJI jokes I’m all ears. Really.
So far all I hear is either a variation of “North Korea is really really really bad” (yeah, we know that already, what else is new?) or “Damn, we just dont have any viable options…why doesnt NK collapse already?”
Gbever is wrong. The world will quickly get over the initial shock of the nuke test and in about a month or so, it’ll be back to business as usual. Gbever’s imaginary NK total isolation scheme, as if the Bush Admin had been deliberately intending that all along, will be as long lived as Bush’s “coalition” on the War on Terror.
cm wrote:
“Mizar5, aren’t you claiming that you’re one of the stinking Kyopos?
Do you know the secret handshake?”
Lol, good one. Actually I have never made any claims of that sort. And yes I know the secret handshake…it’s the smell of garlic
bluejives, I totally agree with you in what you said in #54…up to the point of kicking out the US immediately. What we urgently need is the signing of peace agreement between the South and the North. I may be overly optimistic, but I think that would solve most of our problems with the North. With that done, the end of the USFK will come once North and South have proven to each other that they can co-exist peacefully for a certain amount of time.
Bluejives,
For South Korea, it is already business as usual. In spite of Roh Moo-hyun saying one day after the explosion that the action was “intolerable,” South Korea continues to funnel money to North Korea. That is money that the North can use to continue its nuclear weapons program. If it were so intolerable, why does South Korea continue to support North Korea?
North Korea cannot build nuclear bombs without money, so if South Koreans really wanted North Korea to stop building nuclear bombs, then they should stop giving her money. The reality is that many South Koreans do not reallly care if North Korea has nuclear weapons; in fact, many are even proud of the fact that she has them. They consider it another great “Korean” achievement.
Korean pride seems to blind them to the fact that North Korea’s nuclear weapons could be sold to terrorists. Or maybe South Koreans do not care as long as the weapons are not used against them? Most South Koreans do not think their brothers in the North would use their nuclear weapons against them or that South Korea would be a target of a terrorist nuclear attack. That is why many South Koreans are more concerned about issues like “Dokdo” than about North Korea’s nuclear weapons.
What really concerns South Koreans is their economy, and many feel the US is hurting Korea’s economy by making issues out of North Korea’s nuclear weapons and human rights. South Koreans seem to care more about making money than about North Korea’s selling nuclear bombs to terrorists or about North Koreans being tortured or killed in concentration camps. That is why South Korea continues to support her investment projects in North Korea.
The problem is that South Korea’s investment projects in North Korea do not look as promising as South Koreans had once hoped, now that the US, Japan, and other nations have decided to further isolate North Korea. That really pisses off South Koreans, who feel that their most-excellent plan has disintegrated in a mushroom cloud. I think people will see many more Korean news articles and broadcasts in the coming months that blame the US for a variety of the world’s problems. Just wait and see.
“The problem is that South Korea’s investment projects in North Korea do not look as promising as South Koreans had once hoped, now that the US, Japan, and other nations have decided to further isolate North Korea.”
Actually, going in business with the North Korean government has been a bad move for a large number of South Korean companies that has done so. Last I heard, roughly 1000 South Korean companies have gone bankrupt because of the losses incurred by investing in North Korea.
Roh Moo Hyun’s stance, in a nutshell: North Korea’s nuclear program is intolerable, and we will continue funding it until it stops!
sewing, I don’t wish to name names.:)
Can you imagine how happy bluejives would be if he knew how to write that in Korean?
Don’t feel bad for them. The South Korean government has provided investment guarantees to these businessmen. Is your business in Taegu at death’s door? “Invest” in the Kaesong Zone and then when you “go bankrupt” because of Uncle Sam’s sanctions the Uri Party will shovel some cash into your pocket. Less, of course, the vigorish for the Dear Leader. It’s a classic scam that cynically serves the desperate and bankrupt South Korean businessmen, South Korean “brokers” who connect these failing SMEs with the public trough, the Dear Leader, and the Uri Party. Everybody but the North Korean workers and the South Korean workers whose taxes pay for the circus. (Of course, if you consider the $30 billion a year substitution value of American defense commitment to the Republic of Korea, it could just as easily be said to be the U.S. taxpayer’s expense.) Just like here in Seoul, when you think about it.
Speaking of blame America…Kim Dae Jung lashes out in senile dementia: “The U.S. lost a lot by refusing talks with North Korea,” the increasingly frail Kim, 82, said in written answers to questions from Reuters. Uh, who quit the six-party talks, you geezer?
This part is stunning: But Kim argued that his “sunshine policy” had succeeded and, in the process, given South Korea strong economic leverage on the other side of the heavily defended border.
“South Korea secured rights over North Korea’s railways, telecoms, electricity, ports, tourism, and industrial complexes for 30-50 years.
“It is not too much to say that South Korea has secured management of North Korea’s economy,” he said, adding that was far more influential than the aid Seoul had been providing and which has now been suspended.
No, it’s really way too much to say S.K. has “secured management of North Korea’s economy,” in fact it’s science fiction without any basis in reality.
“North Korean people have changed their feelings a lot towards the South. They have feelings of envy, intimacy and appreciation.” Wow. That’s a clinical level of delusion.
From: http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1523212006
“And all we had to do was condemn 20 million ethnic Koreans to continued slavery, starvation, and despair. So you see, it was quite a bargain. The best part is, I used the stupid Yankee’s money for the bribes. Oh well, fuck ‘em — I got mine. My sons Hong Gul and Hong Up were able to steal billions of won while I was Preznit and I got this worthless Peace Prize to help with my sanitary needs. A.M.F., suckers!“
Not to mention that DJ’s assertion is patent bullshit. The only area where there are any long-term rights agreements in effect that I know of is in mining, and S.K. takes a backseat there to China and Europe. S.K. does get to do some oil exploration in
N.K. waters, though.
Like somebody said here recently, it’s all about the benjamins on both sides of the DMZ, and human rights, screw that.
{subliminal message piped from North and South Korean TV sets}
…one [machi]nation, under god (money), forever divisible, with fine killing liberty and injustice for all.
I really don’t see what the big deal is about in this thread. The fact of the matter is, there are way more destructive weapons that could be used than nuclear weapons.
Seriously, is anyone surprised at those sneaky Canadians providing India nuclear technology? A Canadian would sell his mother into prostitution for a cold beer.
–Remort
Is there any way to start a global movement to strip DJ of his Nobel?
Bluejives, even discounting your bizarre foray into Israel analogies and your dishonest defense of it, your posts on North Korea refute themselves over the course of a long thread.
I’m starting to prefer pawikirogi, who while drinking from the same toxic ethnocentric punchbowl as you, understands that he is merely a crude racist troll and has no pretense of intellectualism and gets on with the core business of baiting whitey without wasting so many words.
ATTENTION #52 RICHARDSON AND OTHER INTERESTED PARTIES:
Kaplan’s statement about the DPRK and China on NPR is linked here:
http://www.cominganarchy.com/a.....ompulsive/
Requires RealPlayer..
Slim, come on, BJ can’t be typing this shit with a straight face: “Kick them out, reject this division of the Korean peninsula cause first by Japanese colonization and later by the contamination of foreign, Western ideologies, and settle the dust on Korean’s own terms.” Umm, the Korean Peninsula has ALWAYS been divided into little kingdoms and Koreans have ALWAYS been fighting amongst themselves. Also, this “contamination” rhetoric he shares with his consanguineous fellow travelers at the KCNA is really specious and he knows it. Funny thing is, the Koreans I know here IN KOREA would find his undigested “folk-nation” rantings bizarre and inappropriate.
I think you give BJ too much credit, Michael. Anyway, sorry to follow him into lalaland and abetting his hijacking of a serious thread.
BJ’s stuff is so wack sometimes it sounds like he’s just yanking everybody’s chain, and I was up late tonight and fed the troll, what the hell. Time for a beer.
And of course, any or all of those ‘rights’ (even if they do exist) can and will be cut off as soon as they become inconvenient for the Nork government (i.e. after the cash payments stop).
Know how to tell if a former South Korean president is full of shit? It’s when he prefaces his comments with ‘it’s not too much to say’. Of course, if SK really has ‘management’ of the Nork economy, they should actually exercise some of that control and tell KJI to feed his people and stop spending money on M-F’ing nukes.
Kim Daejung should have been written off long time ago, at least after it was revealed that he bribed his Northern counterpart with almost half a billion dollars for a summit meeting. It’s a pity some people in the media, domestic as well as foreign, don’t seem to get the idea as to what it says about the fella.
I blame DJ himself. Here is a guy who buys his way into NK in the form of a $200 million dollar white envelop then tries to hide it unbeknownst to him countries do this sort of thing as a matter of course. This is the same guy let the riot police get their skulls crushed by protestors with orders not to protect themselves. You see, you can’t win a Nobel Prize if rioters are being correctly dispatched. Now all we need is jimmy Carter to ride up to Pyongyang on his white horse, that will really f#ck things up
How many North Korean nuclear bombs has South Korea paid for?
“Mass weapons: Where did the North get cash?”
We need to get Park G. H. into the Blue House. The leadership is lacking. The Parkster will correct relations with the US and stop sending money to the bastards in the North.
Forty-three percent of Koreans think the United States was the most responsible for North Korea’s nuclear test.” Only 37.2 percent think North Korea was the most responsible.
Actually, I was surprised to see that only 1 percent felt that Japan was the most responsible.
This reminds me of an old US commercial: “Mikey made me do it.”
“US Most Responsible for Nuclear Test: Poll”
Oh, I forgot… Mr. Carr, you are spot on here. The fiction in Keason is another money laundering exercise. A political hand job at best, a front for graft most likely.
railwaycharm, the real amount is far greater than 200 million dollars when you consider all the investements that are wasted on North Korean businesses (as Brendon pointed out, ultimately coming out of our taxes), all the food aid that was delivered straight to the North’s military warehouses, and the money the South is wasting on putting its soldiers on alert because of the nuclear test.
2 Trackbacks
[...] This despite the ruling Uri Party blaming the United States for North Korea’s nuclear test. [...]
[...] Well, I guess we have to give the Uri Party credit—at least they seem to speak for the masses: [...]