Comments on: RAS tonight — Peter Beck on North Korean Refugees http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/ Korea... in Blog Format Tue, 2 Dec 2008 02:00:28 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: jonnyh http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49199 jonnyh Wed, 13 Sep 2006 05:20:28 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49199 Re: Christians Actually, Beck did make another mention of Christians, seeing similarities in the subway fanatics in Seoul and the KJI fanatics in Pyongyang. I don't disagree with what other posters have said about Christians' hearts (and actions) being the right place. But regarding the Christians I've met in Seoul waving crosses in my face and telling me I "must believe in Jesus Christ!", Beck's parallel seems not to be entirely inaccurate. Re: Marrying in China He also said there are major challenges for NK refugees who marry in China, as far as getting either their union or any progeny recognized by the governement, and all the problems this entails in terms of medical coverage, etc. I'm glad I showed up. I'm not in total agreement about what either the ROK or US is doing and saying regarding our neighbors to the north, since I think neither threatening nor bribing gets anyone to really change their behavior. It was interesting to hear an informed firsthand perspective. A written report on the issue is to be released Friday, I believe. www.crisisgroup.org Re: Christians
Actually, Beck did make another mention of Christians, seeing similarities in the subway fanatics in Seoul and the KJI fanatics in Pyongyang. I don’t disagree with what other posters have said about Christians’ hearts (and actions) being the right place. But regarding the Christians I’ve met in Seoul waving crosses in my face and telling me I “must believe in Jesus Christ!”, Beck’s parallel seems not to be entirely inaccurate.

Re: Marrying in China
He also said there are major challenges for NK refugees who marry in China, as far as getting either their union or any progeny recognized by the governement, and all the problems this entails in terms of medical coverage, etc.

I’m glad I showed up. I’m not in total agreement about what either the ROK or US is doing and saying regarding our neighbors to the north, since I think neither threatening nor bribing gets anyone to really change their behavior. It was interesting to hear an informed firsthand perspective. A written report on the issue is to be released Friday, I believe. http://www.crisisgroup.org

]]> By: Andy Jackson http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49194 Andy Jackson Wed, 13 Sep 2006 03:28:57 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49194 If there are Buddhist organizations doing something for NK refugees and those suffering under the Kim regime, I would love to hear about it. There has to be something that I have not heard about. If there are Buddhist organizations doing something for NK refugees and those suffering under the Kim regime, I would love to hear about it. There has to be something that I have not heard about.

]]> By: snow http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49193 snow Wed, 13 Sep 2006 03:01:15 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49193 "Rather, the derisive cackles of many in the audience at the mention of the bibles leads me to believe that many there believed it to be a worthless endeavor to proselytize." It certainly sounds like a dangerous thing to do to take bibles back into the North, but if anything is going to cause Northerners to see that there are alternative views out there, I think christians will be at the forefront of changes in the North. Outside information is what will hopefully end this regime and christianity could play a big part in spreading views contrary to the 'official' line. “Rather, the derisive cackles of many in the audience at the mention of the bibles leads me to believe that many there believed it to be a worthless endeavor to proselytize.”

It certainly sounds like a dangerous thing to do to take bibles back into the North, but if anything is going to cause Northerners to see that there are alternative views out there, I think christians will be at the forefront of changes in the North. Outside information is what will hopefully end this regime and christianity could play a big part in spreading views contrary to the ‘official’ line.

]]> By: Lankov http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49188 Lankov Wed, 13 Sep 2006 01:28:45 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49188 Wanted to attend, but unfortunately, could not. <em>Re figures: </em> the oft-cited "300,000" was an exaggeration even in the late 1990s. It seems that the numbers peaked slightly below 200,000 in 1999 or so. These days, I’d agree: between 30,000 and 100,000. However, there is a rather large and growing “invisible community” of the NK women who are married to the Chinese citizens and who have managed to obtain the Chinese IDs, thus passing for local Chinese. This is a large phenomena, for 1,500-3,000 yuan a husband can re-make his refugee wife into a 100% citizen of the People’s Republic. <em>Re: religion</em> Recently the NK authorities issued few documents about growing threat of the Christian penetration. They take it seriously, and all SK missionaries, they tell to their subjects, are by definition NIS and CIA spies. Wanted to attend, but unfortunately, could not.

Re figures:
the oft-cited “300,000″ was an exaggeration even in the late 1990s. It seems that the numbers peaked slightly below 200,000 in 1999 or so. These days, I’d agree: between 30,000 and 100,000. However, there is a rather large and growing “invisible community” of the NK women who are married to the Chinese citizens and who have managed to obtain the Chinese IDs, thus passing for local Chinese. This is a large phenomena, for 1,500-3,000 yuan a husband can re-make his refugee wife into a 100% citizen of the People’s Republic.

Re: religion
Recently the NK authorities issued few documents about growing threat of the Christian penetration. They take it seriously, and all SK missionaries, they tell to their subjects, are by definition NIS and CIA spies.

]]> By: R. Elgin http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49186 R. Elgin Wed, 13 Sep 2006 01:17:15 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49186 Sewing, the ruling cadre in the North do fear the rise of Christianity since it could cause the "dear leader" cult to falter. Historically, during the unification of the three kingdoms, it was Buddhism that provided a common ground upon which the three kingdoms could come together -- socially and politically. Christianity can play such a role between the two sides now, however the activities of fringe Christian groups or corporate-sized Christian (tm)enterprises (who remind me more of spreading cancer than of preaching the message of Christ) may be a cause for concern in their recklessness and downright lack of qualitative thought. I suppose, at this point in time, quality is not as important but I would rather a better organization, like the Korean Catholic Church involved in such. They inspire more confidence and are not reckless. Sewing, the ruling cadre in the North do fear the rise of Christianity since it could cause the “dear leader” cult to falter. Historically, during the unification of the three kingdoms, it was Buddhism that provided a common ground upon which the three kingdoms could come together — socially and politically. Christianity can play such a role between the two sides now, however the activities of fringe Christian groups or corporate-sized Christian ™enterprises (who remind me more of spreading cancer than of preaching the message of Christ) may be a cause for concern in their recklessness and downright lack of qualitative thought.

I suppose, at this point in time, quality is not as important but I would rather a better organization, like the Korean Catholic Church involved in such. They inspire more confidence and are not reckless.

]]> By: sewing http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49179 sewing Tue, 12 Sep 2006 23:17:38 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49179 ...I should have added that Christianity was, in fact, widespread in the North before 1945 (heck, I've even read that KIS's parents were established members of their local Christian community), so it was the religion of the recent ancestors of many of the people who are being reached today. …I should have added that Christianity was, in fact, widespread in the North before 1945 (heck, I’ve even read that KIS’s parents were established members of their local Christian community), so it was the religion of the recent ancestors of many of the people who are being reached today.

]]> By: sewing http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49178 sewing Tue, 12 Sep 2006 23:11:02 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49178 It's sad to hear about cynical attitudes towards Christians who are working to help North Korean refugees. Since Christians (Korean Christians in particular) seem to be among the most willing to risk everything to go to China (among other places) and deal with the situation firsthand, they should be commended—at least by those who attended the lecture, assuming that they went there out of common interest. I can see how an outsider might question the Christians' motivation—is it being done mainly for the sake of proselytizing?—but goshdarnit, they're doing something. And over much of Korea's history in the past 200 years or so, Christianity has been a motivating vehicle for positive change, so perhaps it's a natural fit anyhow. Also, Northerners are raised on a strong and powerful ideology that places the Kim family above all else...the simplest and strongest antidote to that may be to subsitute it with another belief system that has a proven track record in Korea, in its embracement by Koreans themselves: Christianity. It’s sad to hear about cynical attitudes towards Christians who are working to help North Korean refugees. Since Christians (Korean Christians in particular) seem to be among the most willing to risk everything to go to China (among other places) and deal with the situation firsthand, they should be commended—at least by those who attended the lecture, assuming that they went there out of common interest. I can see how an outsider might question the Christians’ motivation—is it being done mainly for the sake of proselytizing?—but goshdarnit, they’re doing something. And over much of Korea’s history in the past 200 years or so, Christianity has been a motivating vehicle for positive change, so perhaps it’s a natural fit anyhow. Also, Northerners are raised on a strong and powerful ideology that places the Kim family above all else…the simplest and strongest antidote to that may be to subsitute it with another belief system that has a proven track record in Korea, in its embracement by Koreans themselves: Christianity.

]]> By: jonnyh http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49177 jonnyh Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:37:17 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49177 I thought the numbers were interesting too. Though Beck said that there was "no good estimate" of the true numbers, he later gave his best estimate at somewhere from 30,000 to 100,000, adding another very loose estimate that "roughly half" of those were economic and temporary refugees, just in china to make a buck or visit relatives. Looking at the big picture, he said that the Chinese crackdown on refugees that began in 2001 after a temporary loosening during the worst of the North Korean famine makes conditions for NK refugees "as difficult now as they've ever been." However, Beck suggested that the SE Asian countries mentioned by Carly, and countries more openly accepting refugees, such as Thailand and Mongolia, are not likely to crack down. He said the recent arrests in Thailand were more likely a local police overreaction than a sign of changing Thai policy. Asked about South Korea's passive approach, neither encouraging nor discouraging refugees overtly, Beck said he was puzzled by it, particularly by his Ewha students, one of whom had asked the question, "Why should I care?" I thought the numbers were interesting too. Though Beck said that there was “no good estimate” of the true numbers, he later gave his best estimate at somewhere from 30,000 to 100,000, adding another very loose estimate that “roughly half” of those were economic and temporary refugees, just in china to make a buck or visit relatives.
Looking at the big picture, he said that the Chinese crackdown on refugees that began in 2001 after a temporary loosening during the worst of the North Korean famine makes conditions for NK refugees “as difficult now as they’ve ever been.”
However, Beck suggested that the SE Asian countries mentioned by Carly, and countries more openly accepting refugees, such as Thailand and Mongolia, are not likely to crack down. He said the recent arrests in Thailand were more likely a local police overreaction than a sign of changing Thai policy.
Asked about South Korea’s passive approach, neither encouraging nor discouraging refugees overtly, Beck said he was puzzled by it, particularly by his Ewha students, one of whom had asked the question, “Why should I care?”

]]> By: Corpy Carly http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49165 Corpy Carly Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:13:22 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49165 Oops, "Or at least to recognize a truly evil regime for what it is" should read "Or at least recognize bravery for what it is." Oops,
“Or at least to recognize a truly evil regime for what it is”
should read
“Or at least recognize bravery for what it is.”

]]> By: Corpy Carly http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49164 Corpy Carly Tue, 12 Sep 2006 16:10:42 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/09/12/ras-tonight-peter-beck-on-north-korean-refugees/#comment-49164 A great overall, executive points style summary of the situation facing refugees and the respective host country policies towards them. I was particularly impressed by the refutation of the 300,000+ refugees inside of China claim. By Mr. Beck's analysis if there truly were 300,000 or even 100,000 Northerners within the Korean Autonomous Region near the border, the 800,000 ethnic Koreans would have a very hard time sheltering them all. With three or four people making up an average household, that would mean one in two families are sheltering refugees. A hard number to believe for anyone who's visited the area. I was also heartened by the lack of cooperaton Pyongyang gets outside of China, even in a nominally communist country like Vietnam. It seems no one has yet been sent back to the North from any of the South East Asian gateway countries (Thailand,Vietnam,Cambodia,Myanmar). There was, however, a moment during the presentation that made me very uncomfortable. When Mr. Beck addressed the issue of certain missionary groups sending North Koreans back with contraband bibles for distribution within North Korea, he implied that they were irresponsibly endangering the returnees. I would tend to disagree. I'm sure no one is more aware of the potential danger in distributing subversive materials than the returning North Koreans themselves. If they choose to accept that danger, that is their choice. Rather, the derisive cackles of many in the audience at the mention of the bibles leads me to believe that many there believed it to be a worthless endeavor to proselytize. As a non-christian I have no special affinity for missionary work but I do respect the power of many christian's convictions. If they believe the spreading of God's word is a task worth risking everything for, I commend them. With the requisite digs at the Bush administration's "black and white" worldview and ridicule of those christian aid groups, I found myself wondering if perhaps some of those laughing wouldn't be better off if they had a cause they were willing to give their lives for. Or at least to recognize a truly evil regime for what it is. Alas, that may be too antiquated a notion for many. A great overall, executive points style summary of the situation facing refugees and the respective host country policies towards them. I was particularly impressed by the refutation of the 300,000+ refugees inside of China claim. By Mr. Beck’s analysis if there truly were 300,000 or even 100,000 Northerners within the Korean Autonomous Region near the border, the 800,000 ethnic Koreans would have a very hard time sheltering them all. With three or four people making up an average household, that would mean one in two families are sheltering refugees. A hard number to believe for anyone who’s visited the area. I was also heartened by the lack of cooperaton Pyongyang gets outside of China, even in a nominally communist country like Vietnam. It seems no one has yet been sent back to the North from any of the South East Asian gateway countries (Thailand,Vietnam,Cambodia,Myanmar). There was, however, a moment during the presentation that made me very uncomfortable. When Mr. Beck addressed the issue of certain missionary groups sending North Koreans back with contraband bibles for distribution within North Korea, he implied that they were irresponsibly endangering the returnees. I would tend to disagree. I’m sure no one is more aware of the potential danger in distributing subversive materials than the returning North Koreans themselves. If they choose to accept that danger, that is their choice.
Rather, the derisive cackles of many in the audience at the mention of the bibles leads me to believe that many there believed it to be a worthless endeavor to proselytize. As a non-christian I have no special affinity for missionary work but I do respect the power of many christian’s convictions. If they believe the spreading of God’s word is a task worth risking everything for, I commend them. With the requisite digs at the Bush administration’s “black and white” worldview and ridicule of those christian aid groups, I found myself wondering if perhaps some of those laughing wouldn’t be better off if they had a cause they were willing to give their lives for. Or at least to recognize a truly evil regime for what it is. Alas, that may be too antiquated a notion for many.

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