The article mentioned in Mr. Carr’s Bravo Foxtrot has been posted at BreakNews.com. Yes, it’s a gem. And yes, of course I’ll translate it. Just not right now.
UPDATE 2: Just a couple of thoughts on this issue:
- I think both Koreans and foreigners can agree that the English language education system in Korea is seriously broken. Yes, there are more than a few foreigners teaching in Korea who have no business being in a classroom. Yes, many a hagwon will hire any warm body as long as he or she is white. But the teachers are only part of the problem. The real problem is the people who hire them, and what I find most amusing is reading hagwon owners and recruiting agents bitch in the media about all the losses they’ve suffered because of bad English teachers. Why amusing? Because a) hagwon owners (and recruiters) own the dubious distinction of being one of the few groups in Korean society who are even shadier than foreign English teachers, and b) they’re only reaping the fruits of the system they built and run.
- Ultimately, the real root of the problem is the overemphasis on learning English. Hey, learning English is good. Learning Farsi is probably good, too—it sounds nicer, albeit it’s less practical economically speaking. Having said that, companies and universities overemphasize English in their hiring, admission and promotion practices, and this leads to an overdemand for English education (resulting in abuses), unnecessary stress for ordinary office workers and students, and wasted resources that could be used more productively.
- If you’re going to run a story on the “realities of foreign English teachers,” you might want to actually talk to a foreign English teacher. They are, after all, a concerned party. Even KBS took the time to get a quote from a Kiwi teacher today. And who knows, they might have something to say about the issue.
UPDATE 1: Here is the translation. Enjoy:
Affairs with High School Students, Spreading Nude Photos on the Internet
There is a growing stir from the issue of the “low-quality foreign English teacher blacklist,” reported in an exclusive in Issue 432 of Inside Story.
Broadcasters, “Y” news agency and major dailies ran stories on the “native English speaker blacklist” on Aug. 15 based on our report. In particular, with the U.S. media raising issue with the quality of native English speaking teachers in Korea and [other parts of] Asia and this paper running its report, there have been a string of reports on the realities of low-quality native speaking English teachers.
Prior to our report on the blacklist, we ran an in-depth report on the shocking debauchery of some low-quality foreign English teachers subtitled, “Low-quality foreign teachers absorbed in women, drugs.” This got a huge response.
Since the paper ran two exclusive investigative reports into the realities of low-quality foreign teachers, netizens have been flooding our Internet edition, “BreakNews.com,” with comments and tips.
Meanwhile, we’ve gotten a shocking tip from Mr. Kim, who tipped this paper off to the “native speaking teacher blacklist.” The new tip from Mr. Kim includes:
—People being sued or personally threatened after they’ve lodged complaints against unqualified English teachers;
—Foreign teachers going around with high school girls;
—A famous English teacher openly posting pictures of nude Korean women on his homepage;
—English teachers who appear on TV illegally tutoring or asking outrageous prices.
Since we reported on the blacklist, composed based on acts of degree forgery, sexual assault, theft and other misdeeds by foreign English teachers, we’ve gotten a string of trips about native speaking English teachers from former and current English teachers and students. This is evidence that the problem isn’t limited to just a small minority of foreign teachers.
Posting naked women photos on his homepage
Of all the examples we’ve seen so far, the decadent behavior of American Mr. A, a well-known teacher at a famous foreign language hagwon, is the most shocking.
Mr. A is a native speaking instructor who is supposedly doing well, who in addition to his good looks is the main teacher at his hagwon. But on his personal homepage, Mr. A has shockingly posted nude photos of the Korean women with whom he has slept and is sharing them with other native speaking instructors.
When we visited the homepage address, provided us by tipster Mr. Kim, nude photos of Korean women—their faces visable—were openly posted. The photo were taken on a bed and sofa, while in the background, your attention is drawn to various articles that appear to be personal items.
In this place, presumed to be Mr. A’s home, it appears he naturally took nude photographs of Korean women wearing not even a stitch.
Kim explained, however, that there is room to debate whether the women were Mr. A’s students or paid models.
Mr. A, whose homepage contains an astonishing number of nude photos, is still working as an instructor at the well-known foreign language academy.
The Kim family, who run a restaurant in a neighborhood with many hagwons, tipped this paper to the following scenes they’ve witnessed in a Gyeonggi-do hagwon area:
—A foreigner and a Korean high school student in their restaurant. At first they thought they were teacher and student, but they caught them kissing in the bathroom;
—The girl paid for the food;
—In the car, the student and the foreigner shamelessly engaged in embarrassing acts of affection;
—You can witness many such scenes near the train station and throughout the hagwon area.
The Kim family pleaded to our paper, “If you have the power to help our youth study properly, please help.”
Partiality for high school girls
In an email tip to this reporter, Mr. Bae, who works as a hagwon English teacher, strongly criticized a) some teachers who joke around during their conversation classes; b) foreign teachers who think students should be grateful for their time even when they [the students] buy them meals, unlike Korean teachers who buy meals for their students; c) the attitudes of foreign teachers, who emphasize only time and bonuses.
Bae said, “Korean departments of education should try to cultivate Korean [English] teachers rather than insisting on native speakers only.”
He added, “With white loafers who can’t get jobs back home working as English teachers, we must sound the alarm again some instructors who joke around, waste time and act arrogantly.” He stressed, “More than anything else, what needs to change is the attitude of students who insist on learning from native speaker instructors only.”
Mr. Jeong, who recruits teachers for English hagwons, said, “When we place an advertisement for native English speaking instructors, there are numerous occasions when many of the native speaker applicants are unqualified. In particular, I was surprised to hear that among some of the foreign job seekers registered at woXXX.XX.co.kr, it’s the rage to engage in illegal tutoring.” He scolded the government for lacking measures to deal with low-quality native speaker instructors, saying, “We are virtually ridden by illegal native speaker instructors, but it seems the government has formulated no measures at all. In this situation, native speaker instructors must really look down upon the government and Korean people.”
He also said some of the people who appear on TV are openly working as English teachers. “I inquired about private tutoring and was introduced to a female actress who frequently appeared on a certain TV program. I turned her down, however, when she asked for 70,000 won an hour.
It’s absurd that someone would ask for several times more money just because they’re riding their fame from appearing on TV. This is clearly illegal, and we must awaken to how the broadcast companies and these individuals are being managed.”
Accuse me, and I’ll file charges
The inappropriate behavior of some foreign teachers has reached a dangerous level, but the reality is that there’s really no place to file complaints about the unethical behavior of low-quality English teachers. In fact, there are increasing instances of tipsters having their identity exposed or receiving threats.
Mr. Ahn, a tipster who complained of this, told of his experience when he protested the behavior of one foreign teacher whose behavior he could no longer tolerate. The teacher, who teaches in an English hagwon for young children, did not even graduate from college. In class, he swears at students to “shut the fuck up,” and when they play “the question game” (if you answer the question, you win), he lets students win by asking the other side, “Do you want to sleep with me?”
Ahn said, “I asked the teacher why the students were cursing in his class, and he said that since it was English class, it didn’t matter if they swore in English.” At this point he understood this wasn’t a person qualified to teach children.
According to Ahn, one of the teacher’s parents is Korean, so even though he’s an American citizen, he has an F-4 visa (permanent residency issued to North Americans of Korean descent), and using this, he conveniently acts Korean or American depending on the situation. Unable to graduate college, he drifted around without work and is now teaching kindergarten and elementary school students English at a hagwon in Gyeonggi-do.
Furious that the teacher was using swear words with the students, Ahn strongly protested to the hagwon, but outrageously, the hagwon arranged a meeting between him and the teacher, who in turn threatened to report Ahn to the police.
Ahn was dumbfounded. “If you protest to hagwon about an unqualified teacher, I naturally thought the school would take measures to get the teacher to wake up or fire him, but I never expected that a complaint could be lodged against me with the police.”
Mr. Lee, who experienced a similar instance, said he received several threatening text messages from the teacher. Feeling threatened, Lee asked the police and immigration bureau for help, but at the immigration office, he was told that all the teacher needed to do is say he didn’t do it. The police, meanwhile, told him they visited the hagwon and said he [Mr. Lee] had placed a tip, exposing his identity as the tipster.
The hagwon is standing with the problematic teacher. Lee bitterly complained, “I made a just complaint in my own country, but nobody will help, and an unqualified foreign teacher, from a position of superiority, is turning on me like a thief on a master.”
Meanwhile, most of the netizens who read this paper’s exclusive report on the “native speaker teacher blacklist” agreed that low-quality foreign teachers should be expelled from the country.
The following are netizen comments posted at “BreakNews.com,” our Internet edition.
A netizen going by the name “Min So-hee” said, “I decided to learn English, but after watching the behavior of the foreign male teachers at the hagwon, I felt serious doubts, and now I have fundamental questions about why I must learn English.” She said, “Learning English is fine, but I hope this article become an opportunity to inform countless women like me that it’s not good to get close to English teachers.”
Another netizen wrote, “Frankly, for me it’s easy. This is just the tip of the iceberg. This is an important problem that is entangled with Western fundamentalism, in which low-quality English teachers and other whites treat other races as inferior races, as well as other issues. After this article, I think there will be a lot of tips and information. There is still too much that needs to be put into article form.”
Another netizen drew attention with an essay exposing the realities of foreign English teachers.
Pointing out the problems of Korea’s English-learning craze and calling for improved screening of foreign teachers, he wrote:
There are 30,000 foreign teachers residing in Korea thanks to Korea’s English-learning craze, and for someone like me, who has thought the one issue we must overcome is that of the legal qualifications and unethical character of foreign teachers, it was very nice to see an article showing the realities of these low-quality English teachers.
Just because you speak English as a native language doesn’t mean you can be a teacher, and by the same token, if there’s a problem in the character of a teacher, there must be severe discipline for that person. In Korea, there are good foreign teachers combining legal credentials and proper character, low-quality teachers who are both unqualified and unethical, and low-quality teachers who are legal but unethical. With the current system, it’s hard to sort them out.
But this is something we must do. The fact is that anyone who has experienced English education has experienced low-quality teachers, and even if they’ve never experienced one directly, they’ve heard around them instances of harm. I’ve heard stories of people suffering from classes taught by bad teachers, and beyond the educational damage, there are everyday cases of female victims keeping silent about their experiences because they are of a personal and sexual nature.
So that more instances of harm caused by low-quality teachers do not occur, I think we must acknowledge the problems of the current situation and discuss the many views as to how to solve them.
Another netizen wrote, “In five years of teaching, I saw many kind of native speaker teachers. While working with them, there were many times when I had to quit because I felt dirty and ashamed due to their feelings of superiority and insincere class preparation, and native speakers lacking even morals are given full-service like a king, receiving money for their plane ticket, free apartments, cable, Internet and furniture. Now with even women satisfying them in bed, would native speakers return to their own countries to work in Walmart again?”
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breaknews.com is going about this all wrong. the key to a good net frenzy is pictures. could you imagine the dog poop girl story getting any traction without the cell phone pictures? seriously, that story reads pretty flat without the visuals.
same with englishspectre-gate. it was the photos of the wet t-shirt girls that really gave the thing legs.
think of the french babies in the freezer. it would still be headline news if only they had a few good shots of the frenchman, his wife, and the maid.
breaknews.com has dropped the ball. i can only hope that they have staked someone out in front of the dude’s apartment and are collecting pics of everyone who goes in and out of the building for future release. otherwise, they should just hand in their press cards now and call it a day.
Good stuff, Robert!
it was the wet t-shirts that got me, by god. i think you’re onto something here, jd…
Well, I saw the guy’s site, and I did not notice anything about him f**king highschool students, but the headline is “여고생 제자와 밀월, 알몸 인터넷 유포
[사건의 내막- 특종 3탄] 유명 원어민 영어강사 홈피 나체사진의 비밀”
Basically saying that he has nude photos of his female highschool students on his ’secret’ site. I haven’t read the rest of the article (I will wait for the translation), but from the title it seems like it is knocking down a strawman.
Actually, Shakuhachi, the headline represents an amalgamation of incidents, including the blogger and hagwon teachers in Ilsan apparently dating their high school students.
The thing that kind of disappoints me about pieces like this is that they write about the siltae (“real situation”) of English teachers without actually talking to one. So they end up relying on tips, hagwon managers and xenophobic website administrators. Hey, if you want to write a piece on how the quality of English education in Korea and how backpacking frat boys are part of the problem, fine. But if you’re going to write the story, talk to the people.
But first, an admission:
One of the 전·현직 영어강사 who might have indicated so was me.
Anyway, the writer told me to send in any criticism/complaints once I read the piece, so I’ll probably send in a couple along with a link to this post (after the translation is up) so she can see what “the other side” has to say on the issue.
“Actually, Shakuhachi, the headline represents an amalgomation of incidents, including the blogger and hagwon teachers in Ilsan apparently dating their high school students.”
I know. I have since read part of it – still, the headline is deceptive by conflating different events with each other. Among the complaints against the English teachers was that in addition to seducing female highschool students, it was implied they caused the girls to pay their eating bills as well – “음식 계산은 여고생이 했다”. It is part of a long laundry list of similar complaints.
Addition: I am not an English teacher, never have been, so I am not involved in the issue, but similar articles in the past tells me that the treatment is not going to be even handed. Even when they write 일부의 외국인 영어강사 while strongly implying that it is a huge ‘problem’, all the while distorting the exact nature of the issue.
jd’s right – sensationalistic journalism like this is aided immeasurably by shocking visuals. Note to 신연희: you need to run a follow-up featuring scandalous photographs. The public expects more than just allegations – people need to see the story to become truly incensed. Get back to work, Reporter Shin!
I am not a English teacher, never have been, so I am not involved in the issue, but I am a 26 year old single male working in Korea with a nice disposable income and more than average free time. Something tells me I am directly involved in the issue. The question I field most from foreigners is not “Where are you from?” it is “Where do you teach?” Additionaly, “Are you a teacher?” is what most ladies politely ask when I am fortunate not to have a hand stuck in my face or turned away from when politely saying hello inside a club.
I think it will all blow over quickly as the blog is now behind closed doors and there are no incriminating photos.
Nobongpil, you are right and you have my apologies. I should also hasten to add that I do not live in Korea, so I am not directly affected by the prejudice you are suffering.
Jd, here’s one of the Frozen Babies folk…
http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?u.....p?idx=3903
Experts say that it is extremely incomprehensible for the parents to put their dead babies into the freezer of their home.
Yet, a university professor specializing in criminal psychology said that for the couple it could be a reasonable behavior considering that they are foreigners here in Seoul.
Hahahhaa.
There’s no picture with the article, but one does appear on the site’s main page beside the headline in question. (http://breaknews.com/new/index.html , halfway down the page (scroll down), just below what appears on my computer as a Hite ad.
Nobongpil wrote:
When I first travelled there in ‘97, I had really short hair. I was asked more than once if I was a GI. I politely said no (because I wasn’t—and no, I didn’t say “I’m Canadian,” I just said “no”), and at the time thought it was an innocent question, though in hindsight, I wonder what might have happened had I been one and said yes.
What’s wrong with being an English teacher in Korea? Most of the English teachers I’ve known in Korea make 1.5 to 6 times more money than the average Korean with a college degree. From looking around a bit on Dave’s ESL site, most English teaching jobs are offering salaries in the mid $20s with a B.A. to lower $60s with a master’s or Ph.D. This is well below the average American salary (of $30,000) without a college degree and roughly half of the American average for those with college degrees ($40,000). So, for me, it very easy to understand why Korean chicks want to date someone who makes 1.5 to 6 times more money. But what’s difficult to understand is why Americans would take a 50% pay cut to come work in Korea.
Poor kyopos generally make a lot less money than their “white” colleagues… What I found really disturbing about kyopo treatment in Korea was, my buddy who was an English teacher was informed he had an “English” name assigned to him that he’d be using from now on at his school because of parental complaints. Um, apparently, he was too Korean-American to be an effective English teacher. Needless to say, he’s really pissed off about having something so personal like his name being changed without his consent. He’s just lucky he’s not a female kyopo working in Korea.
–Remort
On the salary issue…my entirely hazy understanding of this is that I think some people in North America who are considering teaching in Korea or Japan have this idea of making massive amounts of easy money while paying virtually nothing in income tax. This is all fantasy and the reality may be far removed from this, but from what I’ve observed over the years in casual conversation with or overhearing people, I suspect this may be a motivator, no matter how ill-informed it might (or might not?) be.
The whole thing might be especially appealing if an applicant is fresh out of university with a BA and not really sure what he/she wants to do next. (Or for those who go there with no degree and either fake it or get jobs at places that turn a blind eye, then it may be really appealing, since they’re doing a university-level job without a 4-year degree to match.)
This is excepting those who do go there with proper TESL/TEFL training and take the job seriously—there are more than a few who view it as a profession and take their responsibilities seriously.
…Even if the hagwons that apploy them do not!
According to the US census, in 1990 and 2000, Korean-Americans ranked 2nd highest among all ethnic groups in America in median income category… Not to mention 1st highest percentage in attending and graduating colleges and universities. I may be wrong… If someone can prove me wrong, please do.
D’oh!
…Even if the hagwons that apploy them do not!…Even if the hagwons that employ them do not!
Nice to be back – same old controversies – Sheldon and his writing; bluejives and his never-ending racism; stupid English teachers posting really stupid pictures and comments on their blogs, and Marmot defending his fetish of wearing a Hanbok while reading women’s magazines….great to be back.
Wishing you-know-who a pleasant day in his own little world.
“But what’s difficult to understand is why Americans would take a 50% pay cut to come work in Korea.”
Uh.. free housing for starters? You know, you can save a lot of money if you don’t have to worry about rent. Lower taxes, cheap convenient transportation (don’t need expensive operation of cars), opportunity for tutoring (illegal but neverthless very profitable), nice looking chics, free plane tickets and other allowances and benefits, and the whole frat party atmosphere – they all add up to the reason why Korea’s still one of the most popular destination for .. ahem… ‘English teachers’ fresh out of University who can only dream making that kind of money with their work and life inexperiences at home.
remort, first off your starting salary of 40000 for college grads in the US may be accurate as an average (though I doubt it), but I would say the median is closer to the upper 20s. Plus as already has been pointed out the cost of living is substanially lower in korea then the states. I saved over 1000 a month while I was in Korea without any difficulty doing and buying what I wanted when ever I wanted. I have yet to find a job in the states that allows me to save 1000 a year.
Are you serious, Mr. Mao? Do you have a link to the original?
Sonagi, that excerpt’s from the ‘Seoul Times’ piece which hardyandtiny linked to above. It’s a fun read – and there are pictures, too!
That quote was lifted out of context (italicized text added from source):
Yet, a university professor specializing in criminal psychology said that for the couple it could be a reasonable behavior considering that they are foreigners here in Seoul.
For them it would be very difficult to bury the babies in the mountain or discard them anywhere else outside of their house. The professor said that they might have put the dead bodies into the freezer because they were worried about the corruption of the bodies.
What he seems to be saying is that—regardless of how the babies died—they were (allegedly) stuck with figuring out what to do with the babies…that they might have attracted untoward attention had they attempted to bury or otherwise get rid of the bodies anywhere outside of their home…. Since they didn’t grow up in Seoul, if there were easy, discrete ways to deal with this, they wouldn’t know about them…or maybe there is nothing suspicious about the babies’ deaths themselves, but they were just in shock and couldn’t face the prospect of dealing with the authorities in a foreign country even if they had done nothing wrong.
“Since they didn’t grow up in Seoul, if there were easy, discrete ways to deal with this,”
Okay, that doesn’t come across right. But the professor was saying, “for them it would be very difficult to buy the babies in the mountain”…perhaps this is what Korean parents did traditionally in cases of infant mortality, since generally, graves are located on mountainsides. This couple (if they are actually involved in this) might very well not be familiar with the concept of mountain burial…and anyhow, even if they were, they wouldn’t do that….
I don’t think this really clears things up, but my point is that the professor was trying to explain why the bodies were kept in a freezer in the house, not how or why the babies died in the first place.
Seoul has got to be one of the most expensive places to live in the world.
“Marmot wearing a hanbok…” ROFL! Them are fighting words!!
–Remort
Another netizen wrote, “Frankly, for me it’s easy. This is just the tip of the iceberg…”
FAR OUT!!! BreakNews mentioned ME!!!
The entire self-righteous tone of the article with it’s “unqualified” whitey, “real Korean English teacher” tone is uproarious. Sure, there are a few really bad foreign teachers but often even the best become sick of trying to change the standards here. And have you ever seen how Korean English teachers and professors teach? My God, it’s medieval.
I’d like to say that, first, every whitey working legally in a Korean university, hagwon, high school or company is totally qualified to work there by virtue of fulfilling their employers’ hiring criteria. Period. Koreans can’t set the terms and conditions of employment and then trun around and howl because their applicants meet exactly their standards. Perhaps their education ministers, faculty hiring committees and Korean English teacher coworkers simply don’t know/care enough about international standards to hire effectively.
Second, if they really want to replace native speakers – all of who must be able to verify fluency and notarized, sealed university degree/transcripts AND often TESOL qualification, experience, etc. – with self-proclaimed Korean grammar experts, high school teachers, and Ph.Ds in applied linguistics (who still, amazingly have trouble with basic syntax, instruction methodologies, and even article usage), I simply say, go for it. It would be a blessing in disguise for any serious foreign EFL professional to be banned from teaching in the ROK and there are so many more places to work these days. Plus salaries are going up elsewhere.
I know many foreign teachers who simply refuse to put ‘worked in a Korean hagwon” on their CVs, and for very good reason. Korean professional EFL standards are so lacking, and universities so willing to graduate ‘Korean English teachers/professors’ (who through lack of study must use Korean during 95% of their English lessons”) that 5 years as an English professor in even their best universities counts for basically naught back in the real world. But it’s so much easier to point the finger at “unqualified foreigners”, isn’t it? Well, it makes for a good laugh I guess.
I don’t know about this.
Aside from the obvious outrages (inapproriate relationships with students, pathetic lessons, no qualifications) I believe that some of the other complaints are just ridiculous.
If a teacher is truly qualified to teach, I think they deserve a paid ticket to Korea or wherever along with free accomodation. How else are you going to attract people and keep them here?
I have a very qualified friend with an MA in ESL/TOEFL or whatever it is from Columbia University currently teaching overseas. She is in India right now teaching the sons and daughters of the ex-pat diplomat community over there. She has a very cushy lifestyle but seriously, how else are you going to attract high calibre teachers if you aren’t going to offer them some incentives to come over? I found that complaint ridiculous.
While there are unqualified teachers benefiting from this, there are a lot of qualified ones who do deserve such incentives. It’s a smart business tactic. It’s not like teachers are going to choose to come to Korea willingly without such offers.
As far as complaining about the high rates some private teachers charge, yes it is fine to complain but as long as no one is forcing you to dish out the money, that seems really minor to me as well. People charge that much because there are parents who will pay that kind of money. If people simply refused to tolerate those rates, teachers would probably lower them as a result.
I am not a teacher but many times I have been asked or guilted into giving free lessons or lessons in which I am paid for inadequately. It is my personal policy to refuse all teaching requests as I don’t enjoy it and value my free time over some extra cash…but there have been many times when people have taken advantage of my English and free time and encourage their friends and colleagues to do the same (one example of this is my phone number being passed around a certain company and workers from this company somehow beleiving they can call me at all hours of the night or day whenever they want a free English lesson and no, it is not my own company that has done this but that of a friend’s).
Here is how I view (legal) private lessons: My free time is valuable to me. If I want to (legally of course) moonlight on the side with a part time job and if I have the freedom to set my own rates, I’m going to make sure it compensates for the time I spend teaching when I could be doing other stuff.
And I’ll set those rates knowing a) it will scare people off from asking me which is what I want or b) some sucker is going to come along and actually pay me that amount in which case, I am in a winning situation. The T.V. personality who charged 70,000 KW an hour can do whatever she wants and sure you can complain but I’m not going to feel sorry for you about it. Just go to someone else if you aren’t able or willing to pay for a certain teacher.
It seems the outrage in some (not all) of these cases should be directed at the reality of the Korean workforce which puts a ridiculous amount of value on pointless TOIC exams which don’t even truly measure one’s English capability and thus forces people to pay such ridiculous fees in the first place. If I were a Korean, I would be complaining about Korean society more than I would about foreign teachers (although yes, there are foreign teachers who do cross the line and should be criticized.)
Another thing about private lessons: If they are indeed illegal private lessons, I’m sure the teacher is considering the risk factor as well when setting the rates. If a Korean is going to ask someone to do something illegal, they better be prepared to pay for it—literally.
I may be a GI but believe it or not I do have some English teaching experience in Korea. I and other soldiers used to once every two weeks help teach English for an hour at a local elementary school near my camp. The school had no foreign English teachers there and relied on soldiers like myself to help them out. It was a win, win for both of parties because I and the rest of the soldiers liked hanging out with the kids and the school didn’t have to pay for a foreign English teacher to come to the school.
However, something that really concerned me was that the Korean teacher that was the official English teacher for the school and had a university degree in English could not hold a conversation with me in English. It was kind of funny because when the school principal came by she would not really say anything to us GI’s because she didn’t want the principal to see her lack of English skills. She could read and write well but as far as speaking and listening to English she was horrible. Often my KATUSA would have to translate what she wanted to say.
So if Koreans are going to rely on Korean college graduates to teach English it will only mean that the children are going to get a poorer English education if my experience of teaching English in Korea is representive of other schools in Korea.
I think I see the root of the problem now.
I tend to agree, the government of South Korea needs to change the rules if people are not happy with them as they are now. 95% of the blame gets put on the teacher’s themselves.
One of the draw backs of that is a shortage of teachers, which decreases the the supply and possibly the salaries as well. My guess is that Koreans would only blame teachers for that if it happened as well.
Yes, there are many unqualified teachers in Korea. I totally agree that they should be thrown out of the country. The ones that are committing crimes should be held responsible and deported immediately. I have no problems with that.
Until someone steps in and cleans up the system, it’s a lose-lose situation for both foreign teachers and Koreans.
More or less. One of the jobs I had in my term as an English teacher there in Korea was to (during two different summers) teach the mandatory ‘refresher’ conversation courses for English teachers from public schools. So, I had a pretty good opportunity to get to know quite a few of the English teachers from quite a few of the schools in the two provinces where I did this. Now, a few of them spoke excellent English, had studied overseas (usually Canada or Australia), and could actually speak rather fluently. A good number could actually speak English at an intermediate conversational level when they applied themselves, and were obviously mostly suffering from a lack of practice. But the majority were pretty much unable to speak English at a very good level at all. Of course, there was a pretty large age division as well. For the most part, the older teachers were the ones who couldn’t speak more than a couple words without stuttering and stammering, while many of the younger ones obviously had had a pretty decent English education. And of course, it was the older guys who couldn’t speak English who typically appointed themselves as ‘leaders’ of the class and would absolutely dominate the conversation (well… the ones who had any sense of pride in their English ability — many of the older guys just had a ‘fuck-it-I-retire-in-a-couple-years-anyhow’ attitude). (And of course many of the younger teachers were stuck teaching the youngest classes, while the older teachers would teach the older age groups, so that while the students’ ability increased, the competency of the teachers actually decreased…)
So I guess that really, underqualified English teachers are just one symptom of an incredibly broken education system — and of course, getting rid of them won’t do anything to actually fix the system or to improve the quality of English education over there. After all, no matter how brilliantly qualified a native English-speaking teacher is, how much good (or bad) can they really do when they only see the students for (at most — usually much less than) five hours a week, and the students refuse (or are too exhausted) to go and actually practice what they learn in class with each other?
Wait.. tutoring is illegal? I have a fellow gyopo friend in Seoul now who’s pulling 40 bucks an hour teaching right now and he doesn’t even have a degree; should I give him a heads up?
Well, just came back to Korea after being away for awhile. Can’t believe this issue is still up. God, how boring can people be that they throw buckets of money at second-tier college grads and then make such a fuss about it?
Anyways..I have nothing original to say..but…something I got a laugh about, is that Wily Mr. Kim. What a guy. Look at everything he’s witnessed from the stoop of his little family restaurant out in Gyeonnggi-do, and to think I could probably go weeks without seeing another whitey around my neighbourhood. I’m sure Mr. Kim has no hidden agenda, no no, I’m sure he really does care that the children are learning their ABCs properly.
Regarding your Update 2, Robert, I think that each point was spot on! Well said. Incidentally, I once wrote a post about the problems in the hagwon system, and I also agree that it is the hagwon owners who need to look in the mirror if they are to save their industry.
How many Korean mothers with newborns sat down today at home with a book and studied English while their babies were taking a nap? And how many of those mothers believe that English is an important part of their child’s future?
it certainly is amusing to watch the johns try to scapegoat the whores for what amounts to complete indifference by the pimps.
There is no good place to start with this article. It is exactly the type of thing that fits the stererotype of the Korean media and bigoted society that expats who complain about Korea are labelled using. It is the type of thing we are accused of hyping up in an effort to do nothing but bash Korea. It is a huge turd from start to finish, and picking it apart would take all day.
“I’d like to say that, first, every whitey working legally in a Korean university, hagwon, high school or company is totally qualified to work there by virtue of fulfilling their employers’ hiring criteria. Period.”
and
“It would be a blessing in disguise for any serious foreign EFL professional to be banned from teaching in the ROK and there are so many more places to work these days.”
Perhaps the best item I’ve seen on these threads about this issue.
If you want to be a “teacher” in the typical hakwon, you’ll burn yourself out. The article was such a turd, I can’t find the motivation to type out a justification for that idea, but I know it is true from experience when not only I but pretty much most of the expats I worked with from 1996 to 2000 tried to fullfill what we thought of a our role as “teachers.” I came away from the hakwon cesspool believing if you really wanted to get something out of your time working in the hakwon industry, the best thing to do was surrender and go with the flow.
IF English is SO important then why are parents not taking control of English language learning? Why would I need an after school institute? I learn the language as a parent and then pass it on to the child.
Piano’s important? Learn the piano, show them how to do it.
What is this world of English hogwan’s, why does it exist?
I think the level of English teacher in Korea is a reflection of Korean childhood parenting.
If daniel Henny wanted to charge $500 to sit an talk with someone, he could get away with it (heck, he probably charges more). Why? Demand.
If they don’t want to pay 70,000 – don’t. Just walk away and find an alternative. Why seek out the star in the first place?
It’s the same old complaints in a broken system. It’s interesting that the articles chose to blame the white Westerner. My question to all the complaining Koreans is who hires and recruits them to come here? When you overlook kyopos and teachers of other ethnicities in preference for white skin coupled with the mere fact they grew up in an English-speaking country, that’s YOUR damn problem.
The Korean government doesn’t seem to regulate what goes on in hagwons at all. The teachers have to have a bachelor’s degree from an English speaking country and that’s it. If the standard is hiring someone from an English-speaking country with a degree in whatever-the-hell qualifies them to teach English whose fault is that? It’s the system’s fault, plain and simple.
What about the recruiters and hagwons who ignore otherwise qualified teachers because their image of an English teacher is a white Westerner? So you get a mob of young and single white males then you express shock when they start dating, having relationships with and, shock of shock, having sex with Korean women?
This is just stupidity all around. There is no reason to be angered with the white guy smart enough to come in and get over in a system that encourages getting over in every way possible.
Add to this the fact is there are some teachers who really do try. In the Korean system a teacher who really wants to do a good job runs into problem after problem because the system cares much more for appearance over content.
There is no self-reflection in these complaints. Not one of these complainers said it’s time to turn a critical eye on the Korean system that allows teachers like this to come in. It’s always easier to just blame the foreigner for all the problems when the fact is if it wasn’t for the faulty system that Koreans created these foreigners wouldn’t be here.
Working from the article, the points to debate aren’t even the qualifications of the language instructors. There are notes about the background (education and experience) and ability to teach, but the majority drive of the article is to link “unqualified” to the moral and ethical behavior of the ESL crowd in general. At least half of the focus is on character not qualification. And the most damaging claims are character issues rather than teaching ones.
And even with the character claims, the bulk of it is hyperbole based on a handful, even less than a handful, of examples, and I think even when we start breaking down the examples given, and we look around the norm in Korean society, the article remains quite galling. The example of the high school student being kissed and fondled is the worst one, but even there, it is a big jump to make, which the article does, to say that sex with minors is a common thing in the ESL expat community – that it is more than a problem with a minority of these expats.
This is truly a tabloid article.
The article is a turkey all-around. It truly is a comedy.
Let’s break it down, slightly, shall we?
- Heavy emphasis on foreigners having sex & making money (and that’s truly the agenda isn’t, it?)
- Unsubstianted claims from some anonymous Mr. Kim about foreigners having affairs with high school students
- Ridiculous anecdotes from some prude who “decided to learn English, but…” about the quality of [i]male[/i] foreign teachers she projected from her 5 minutes in a hagwon.
- Recruiters complaining about how they are illegally forced to hire unqualified Foreigners and tv personalities who demand too much money (hilarious!
- Heavy emphasis on foreigners having sex & making money
- And oh yeah, did i mention heavy emphasis on foreigners having sex & making money?
Mr. Jeong, the hakwon recruiter from the article, “scolded the government for lacking measures to deal with low-quality native speaker instructors.”
In nine years of discussions with Koreans, it seems that the solution proposed to every social issue is for the government to take some measure. The hakwon industry should begin policing itself by requiring sealed transcripts, phoning universities, and checking referrences.
Also, Koreans need to change their attitude toward English instruction. A native speaker of English with no teaching skills or knowledge of English and Korean linguistics is essentially useless as an English teacher, and this is the norm not the exception. A Korean near-nativelike speaker of English ─ their English need not be perfect ─ is an infinitely better instructor.
Hardyandtiny,
A good chunk of my adult students were stay at home moms. In the adult hakwons, I usually had one or two classes that were primarily housewives.
I liked these classes, because when they were the majority of the class, they felt comfortable and would open up and talk about issues without the common filter I’d get from most other classes: a filter of “what should we let the foreigner know” due to Korean society’s obsession with its image abroad. The housewife classes would let me know what the real deal was. I was often suprised about what they wanted to talk about and how freely they felt they could discuss things like extra-marital affairs, the frequency of Korean married men to go to a prostitute, the sex industry in Korea, and a whole lot more. These were some of the most honest and also casual adult classes I had.
If I had read this article 3 or 4 years ago, when I was closer to the time I finally left teaching in Korea, I would probably have tossed my monitor out the window.
Being lectured by hakwon owners and recruiters would have been a bit more than I could have handled.
In fact, I probably would have gone out side and started jumping up and down relentlessly on my monitor after throwing it out the window…..
*Cough* Americans with a college degree that work at Wal-Mart are managers, that make quite a bit of money. On the other hand, the average Korean college graduate wouldn’t even be living above the poverty-line if they lived in the U.S. due to the low Korean salaries, and crappy Korean universities.
The real issue here isn’t that there are low-quality “white” English teachers, if there wasn’t a demand they wouldn’t be in Korea. The reason why there’s a need for quality English education in Korea is because of the communist teacher’s union. In fact, it’s common for the Korean teachers (that can’t read, write or speak English) to beat the crap out of their students.
–Remort
Just teach the kid English when it’s a baby. Miniature Schanuzer’s can learn both languages!
Some truth to the comments in that story, and A LOT of jealousy– WAH! plane tickets. WAH! Cable. WAH! Housing.
I just left Korea in January after ten years of being a “famous” English teacher – well, I suppose I wasn’t famous for all ten of them, maybe half; and boy am I ever glad I got out when I did.
Schnauzer!
Remort, it’s absurd to target the teachers union for the “need for quality English education in Korea.” I can’t imagine what you base this on. The union is working to reform public education here ffs. And associating the union with teachers beating students is farcical: the union is openly critical of this practice. You don’t have a clue.
Western Confucian, it depends. Adult learners deserve a teacher with knowledge of L1 grammar, discourse norms, etc. Young learners don’t require any of it. Parents want “native” speakers because the latter can provide varied input and meaningful interaction in the L2. Language is not a “subject” (like e.g. math) for kids: give them enough of it and they’ll make it their own.
Bitter Hag you’re totally right about skin color but waaaay off the mark with your “mere fact they grew up in an English speaking country” comment. Growing up in such a country and having to have used it as your language of instruction and communication in university is nothing to sneeze at in EFL. Accent may be one thing, total fluency – spoken and written – along with register, slang and teaching methodologies are another. Have you seen the effects of hiring teachers from places (like Korea) where English is not the first language?!
Why do you think that after decades of dependence on those people they decided to recruit overseas? Without total foreign immersion, what other guarantee do you have that instructors are completely fluent and qualified to even correct basic mistakes? Most of the Korean English language professors (Ph.Ds, never mind some of those teachers in the KTU) who grew up in Korea and were schooled there would simply never be hired in their profession in the west or elsewhere at ANY reputable school. I don’t say this to slam them, it’s just the predictable outcome of their past experience or lack thereof.
I’d like to echo the sentiments of bitter_hag.
The hagwon system is broke, and bad quality English teachers are just a symptom of that broken system. The deeper issue is the broken down education system. Don’t just react to the symptoms, fix the system. As pointed out by others, Koreans are not good at looking things with deep long term plans.
Western Confucian said:
“Koreans need to change their attitude toward English instruction. A native speaker of English with no teaching skills or knowledge of English and Korean linguistics is essentially useless as an English teachers”
I take it you’ve never heard of immersion-based learning? Knowledge of learners’ native linguistic patterns is neither necessary nor required for effective language aquisition, and in fact, as seen from the extrememly low results in the Korean eductation system where this is used as an instruction method – is usually a severe drawback. If it were necessary why would the world’s most respected English language instruction entities (viz. Cambridge, British Council, etc.) incorporate and promote instruction in classes where students come from multiple (sometimes 15 or more per class) linguistic backgrounds?
The Korean news show “Seven Days” just ran a story about the “unqualified, overpaid and highly sexed” English teachers. What BreakNews lacked in pictures “Seven Days” more than made up for in interviews. Never can figure out what motivates those who sh*t on their own door stoop, though some of those interviewed were done so by hidden camera.
The story has legs.
Sure, the story can sell – hell, it’s an old story, really, just dressed up in new clothes – but 신연희 hasn’t earned her salary yet. The public wants visual evidence of The Foreigners’ Soddom, and they’ll get it from whichever source provides it. If she doesn’t provide a tantalising visual account, then she’ll lose out to those who do. Get back to work, Reporter Shin!
While sitting through orientation for the JET Programme in Tokyo about 10 years ago, I vividly recall the key note speaker being an American Professor at a Japanese University. His speech centered on why we were all so very lucky to be working in Japan. He made quite a point of stressing that we were getting point almost twice the going rate for rookie native Japanese high school teachers. He also made some comments on the “fact” that all crime in Japan was committed by foreigners. I sat there, politely listening to him, trying not to outwardly express my discomfort. I think the second time a member of my friendly neighborhood local police stopped me to make sure that I had not stolen my own bicycle, my discomfort at the initial orientation speech came to a full boil. I “sorta kinda” understood the stereotypes that the Japanese were dealing with, but I had a real problem with members of the foreign resident community reinforcing those stereotypes and actually trying to make us believe that they are true.
My two main issues were:
1- The Salary: OK… I was getting paid the equivalent of what might be $40,000 today to teach. Sure… that might be higher than your average 22 year old makes in Japan. BUT, I knew that some of my peers from college were making considerably more than that… yes, it was finance related work, but if it was just about the money I would have gotten into finance as well. I was NOT in Japan for the money (as I am sure that many a foreign English teacher in Korea is NOT there for the money. I was in Japan for the experience. I wanted to improve my Japanese and I wanted to get a better idea of the culture. I already spend 5 months in Japan as a student and I wanted to build on that. Furthermore, making a comparison with native Japanese instructors is frankly unfair. Native Japanese (or Korean) instructors do not have to uproot themselves, leave their families, furnish a new apartment and start from zero. They usually are a part of a social network that “fills in the blanks.” Often that network is a family that gives them food and lodging at no charge.
2- The Crime thing: Sure, if you look at the statistics, foreigners tend to disproportionately get involved in criminal activities in Japan. BUT they are not the only criminals in Japan. The Tokyo subway system was not gassed by foreign English teachers, and actually, most of the “foreign crime” in Japan was not committed by English teachers, but instead by “blue collar” laborers.
Again, this is more of a Japan prospective, how does it correlate with Ko
What exactly is the “system” that is “broken”? And what is an alternative?
Seems to me, the ’system’, as is, is this: You get what you pay for. The fact that these crap-for-brains, used-car-salesmen hakwon owners are finally moaning tells me that the system is working just fine.
The only difference between foreign teachers and Korean profs at universities is that the Koreans keep a lid on their fooling around. The crime is not in doing wrong; it is in getting caught. So I would say that, indeed, foreigners often need a course on the concept of ‘losing and saving face’.
I wonder if he got most of his talking points from Pat Buchanan?
“The only difference between foreign teachers and Korean profs at universities is that the Koreans keep a lid on their fooling around. The crime is not in doing wrong; it is in getting caught.”
Sadly, I have to agree with this. I’ve said it once before. The key here is, not to brag that you’re a whoremonger, or that you like to have sex with your students, or you announce to the world you can change women like socks, or that you have thoughts of doing the taboo. You can do them and everyone (Koreans) around does them, but keep it to yourself, don’t talk about it with strangers, and don’t go public with it and brag. And don’t get caught. Many English teachers from culturally open western countries have yet to understand this major subtle difference that quickly gets them into trouble.
A-Letheia and Cm, you’re probably right. Given the outward appearance of prudishness in Korean society (or I just go around Seoul and Daegu with blinkers on), I was honestly surprised to learn—by dribs and drabs, and mainly by reading this vipers’ pit known as the Marmot’s Hole (!)
—how much philandering and hanky-panky really goes on in South Korea. Discretion, “keeping one’s face,” etc….it all goes together.
“The only difference between foreign teachers and Korean profs at universities is that the Koreans keep a lid on their fooling around. The crime is not in doing wrong; it is in getting caught. So I would say that, indeed, foreigners often need a course on the concept of ‘losing and saving face’.”
I would have to say this is true. In those housewives classes I mentioned above, they would all eventually get to the topic of marriage and married men going to prostitutes. What I heard again and again was the same thing you read in the polls in the press: that 80% of men or more go to prostitutes and a large chunk of them more than once/fairly frequently – either for themselves or as part of one of their “circles”. I guess someone could try to make the argument all teachers – college down to elementary school – make up the 20%, but come on…..
Whether Korean teachers are having sex with high school students too is no f-ing point worth considering either – they should all be thrown in jail, but, when it comes to reading lurid articles that talks much about the “debauchery” of the ESL hakwon workers, considering just what the f- goes on in greater Korean society is kind of natural.
And I don’t buy the “Koreans keep it under the lid” stuff either.
It is partly true, but mostly not. If you are in your circle, it isn’t true. And “on the surface” doesn’t really work in the end —- because the sex is everywhere. I understand what you guys are saying, and I know it is true. But it is also clearly not true. The sex and entertainment industry in Korea is everywhere. You might not notice it as a new expat in country since you won’t know what a “room salon” is, but all the Koreans know. All the Koreans know how huge the prostitution industry is as well as the exponentially growing sex culture on the web. And Korea adults are much more active in going out than in American society. They are much more group oriented.
So, in the end, it seems to me what we end up having – isn’t that Koreans just don’t talk about this stuff or that it is all secretly tucked away.
It seems to me what we are saying is ——- something like what used to be with presidents in the US.
Kennedy got blown by interns and more a whole lot more than Clinton —- the press and society just chose not to pay attention.
And that really touches on exactly what we have here:
When it comes to GIs and now ESL expats —– the Koreans WANT TO PAY ATTENTION.
Robert said: “hagwon owners (and recruiters) own the dubious distinction of being one of the few groups in Korean society who are even shadier than foreign English teachers”
Robert, it’d be nice if you’d lay off the slagfest of foreign English teachers yourself. I mean, we expect it from ignoramuses in the Korean media but….oh wait; you’re working in Korea for a Korean newspaper or something, right? Hardly a high enough platform to look down your nose from my good man. It’s not like we’re in awe of YOUR high position in society either. Hey, we’re all in the same boat – Can’t we all be brothers?
Since the communist Korean teachers are molesting, screwing, and beating their students, what kind of role model does that provide the foreign English teachers in Korea? This sets the bar so low for “white” frat boys that you don’t even need to jump, just skip to clear it.
The American show “Cheaters” is really popular here in Korea. It’s a shame that private investigators are illegal here in Korea, or the exposure of teacher-student relations would rock the peninsula.
–Remort
The Korean news show “Seven Days” just ran a story about the “unqualified, overpaid and highly sexed” English teachers. What BreakNews lacked in pictures “Seven Days” more than made up for in interviews. Never can figure out what motivates those who sh*t on their own door stoop, though some of those interviewed were done so by hidden camera.
Wonder if they’d let me interview their producer on live TV and quiz him on what, in his obviously expert opinion, constitutes “unqualified” in regards to English language teaching qualifications and methodologies. Then I could ask him if he or any of his staff ever went to the hookers during their military service or got piss-loaded drunk in the room salon. Of course, being good upstanding Korean men, the answer would just have to be no, right?
Re “Seven Days”. Though a few Koreans were interviewed, it was the foreigners who outed themselves. Comments such as “no training”, “babysitting”, yada yada. Even featured an English teacher from (cue spooky music)…Brazil. Perhaps he’s a great teacher; his passport threw him in with the unqualified lot. A couple of others, recall them identified as “Canadians”, certainly didn’t have accents like any Canadian I’ve bumped into over here. Quebecois?
Teacher training: this is another recurrent theme in the loser ESL instructor discussion. I have a new addition to my understanding of the topic. I am currently in a MA Teaching program that will certify me to teach English at the secondary level in the US. I do not know, however, what all future teachers get in their education classes in an undergraduate program. So, I can’t speak as an authority on teacher training in the US.
But, this summer, when I began this one year, 2 summers included program, I could sum up the information as: learning what it means to be a teen in society and high school. I found the book we used on adolescene interesting. But, having been a teen – it certainly wasn’t ground breaking information for me.
All of it certainly wasn’t something I feel I terribly needed before I taught Freshman composition in college or taught all ages of kids in Korea. Would it have been helpful? Sure. It made me think about how to teach. It did not, however, unlock any key doors of knowledge about how to teach.
This MA program will probably have it better than an undergrad program for at least 1 reason: We are spending two semesters in student teaching in real schools….
So far, I thus remain convinced of what I thought when I left teaching in Korea where I had taught over the years both adults and youth of all ages: experience is what “trains” a teacher and the second necessary component is the will to teach.
So, to me at least, once we move beyond the issue of experience when listing what makes a “qualified” person to teach English in Korea, I lose all interest. Can someone come up with a good list of what exactly makes the difference between a “qualified” and “unqualified” teacher of the English language or just teacher in general?
(Much earlier, as an undergrad, I did take the 3 courses necessary to teach ESL in schools in the US even though I was not an education major. Again, I took something out of the classes, but most of it seemed like common sense.)
I had some minor experience teaching writing before I arrived in Korea, and for the first 3 months, I knew I wasn’t doing a good job. By the end of the first year, it had become a matter of routine: I had a good number of lesson plans I knew worked, and I had developed a certain flexibility and set of styles to adapt to different class dynamics. By the time I left teaching in Korea some 3 years later, I could whip out an adequate lesson plan in 5 minutes and carry it out in class.
And in this MAT program I am in now, there are a few people who have already been teachers in the schools, and they advise us others that it will be that way when we get hired on at a middle or high school here in the states: that it will take us a year or so to ——- figure out how to teach.
So, I don’t put much stock in all of this bashing of “unqualified” ESL instructors. From my experience, I believe the many years individuals have spent as a student – tends to give them some foundation for becoming an adequate teacher – if they wish to draw from it and they have the imagination to draw from it.
This is not me saying everyone can teach. No. Not at all. I don’t know exactly what seperates a good from an average teacher or an average one from an inadequate one. I just do not believe what causes the seperation is connected to the sense I get when I hear people talking about “unqualified ESL instructors in Korea.”
And now to something I think pretty much all of us agree on who have some knowledge of the hakwon system: even if you want to be a kick ass teacher in Korea, the hakwon system will crush you. The amount of hours you are in class. The lack of adequate text books – something absolutely crucial for a teacher with little or no experience but also important to a veteran. The amount of interference in both your in school work and your out of school living situation hakwon owners tend to do. And more. And more.
….has a tendancy of sapping the will out of people who actually want to teach in the hakwon system in Korea. And when you chop off the will to teach, experience and “qualifications” go out the fucking window.
A “qualified”, experienced teacher who gets inspiration from doing the work of teaching would be fucking nuts to go to Korea to teach….
Note: The above pics links should not be viewed at work! Sorry, I could not edit that message.
You’re right, and this is what people like cm just do not get.
A Korean teacher could go into a restaurant with a student, they could even get caught kissing in the bathroom, but that restaurant owner is not going to call the press. In fact, he probably wouldn’t have even looked up from his TV when the couple walked in.
A white guy in his restaurant with a Korean woman, no matter how innocent, is something Mr. Kim is going to remember and comment to others about.
Thanks dogbertt, and I wanted to post that, because it is one of the crucial things.
It is seductive to especially Westerners to say — that the problem is Koreans keep it quiet. The idea of the conservative society.
But, that doesn’t really match Korea. You don’t notice it right away until you learn some basic Korean and talk to Korean adults, but sex is everywhere in Korean society – both on the internet and in full view in public.
It isn’t sleezy most everywhere and isn’t horribly sleezy in the places it is sleezy. It isn’t like 1980s Vietnam War movies or what Westerners who have never been to Thailand or the Philippines typically think of those places. —- but the sex in the public domain is everywhere — and it is used by a far larger percentage of the population than in American society (not counting the internet and video porn industry in the US — I’m mainly thinking of prostitute places).
If you want to talk about Korean soldiers or workers going to the various prostitution businesses in Korean society, it is ho-hum boring and just accepted as normal. I was always amazed when 80+% of my housewife students would tell me it wasn’t bad if a husband went to a whore as long as he didn’t fall in love with one.
But if you throw in GIs going to whores, they quickly become the only focus, and suddenly it is all just terrible and unbareable. And now the hypocrisy is extending to the ESL instructors.
And as I said before, I think going whoring is morally wrong and prostitution detrimental to the health of a society, but the hypocrisy concering it in Korean society trumps my prudishness.
Iliveinitaewon went to the trouble of getting some info from the horse’s mouth (or one step removed), and no one comments on his/her efforts? Good job…I guess it bears out Brendon Carr’s suspicion that (at least some of) the not-work-safe photos were of, ahem, professional models. Interesting to see that they would open up to you…though I guess they were just happy to talk to someone who wasn’t visiting them for business!
Anyhow, that’s an interesting angle that you pursued, Iliveinitaewon. You should get yourself hired as an investigative reporter!
This quote amused the crap out of me:
It’s funny how the guy seems to allege that the foreign teacher’s price gouging is ‘clearly illegal’ but ignores the fact that asking someone on a work visa to do private tutoring is actually illegal. And you know what? 70,000 won an hour isn’t actually ’several times more money’ inasmuch as private tutoring goes — it’s on the high end, but certainly not the highest I’ve heard of.
Heh. Actually, I noticed it right away… the hagwon I taught at for my first job in Korea put me up in an apartment that was right next to the city’s red-light (well… pink-light) district… I was lucky enough to have been warned the first day I was there by my roommate, or I might have ended up going with the girls sitting outside who asked me if I wanted to ‘drink’ with them, and ended up owing quite a lot of money to the local gangpae. One of the funniest things was to sit at the Family Mart at the end of that street at night and watch all the girls scamper inside whenever a police cruiser came down the street… Like prairie dogs, they were. ;P
I was an English teacher for five-plus years. Spent four of them in a hagwon. Hey, some of my best friends are English teachers ™. What this means, of course, is that I’m well aware that thanks to hagwon hiring practices, there are a large number of very questionable individuals hanging around this country as English teachers. While I don’t like the way the media is going about this—and I wrote a very long email to the writer of the piece above to tell her so (and included a link to this post so that she could read English teacher opinions)—I don’t think it’s a bad thing that the English language education system and hagwon hiring practices are coming under media scrutiny. And let’s be honest here—English teachers do a fair amount of slagging of their own, mostly about Korean men and U.S. servicemen, and have been doing so for quite some time.
Thank you. You do read stories of young male high school teachers eventually marrying their students, and it’s not uncommon for Korean professors to bang their students and Korean bosses to fool around with their subordinates. But by and large, they’re discrete about it, and if they get caught, there’s hell to pay. They don’t brag about it on the Internet, and as far as I know, when they get caught, they don’t bitch that it’s not illegal to sleep with your students.
usinkorea—I’ve yet to read a story complaining about English teachers going a’whoring. For that matter, it’s been a while since I’ve read complaints about GIs frequenting prostitutes, especially when it takes place in the gijichon, which most Koreans never see and really don’t regard as part of Korea anyway. The only time I’ve read a story involving an English teacher and a prostitute was a case that happened right after the Great Crackdown, and he made the news because he was a) using his credit card, and more importantly, b) was being “serviced” by call-up massage girls in the university residence. Most of the media bitching involving English teachers and sex deals with a) the stuff that goes on in places like Hongdae (which, frankly, should not be making media, as all it does is play on Korean male insecurities), and b) when it involves students and English teachers using their classes to meet women.
Perhaps I’ve been reading the wrong media sources. The issue of prostitution has come under A LOT of media scrutiny. Both the failure of the Special Law on Prostitution and Korean “prostitution exports” have received infinintly more media attention than “English teacheres acting stupid.” Sure, in the end, nobody really does anything to change things, but the same goes for the English teacher issue, which has been around since at least last year and nobody has moved to make hagwons improve their hiring practices.
Iliveinitaewon, that’s a hell of a report. You visited all the bars?! Lucky for you this incident didn’t happen in Pattaya.
I checked out Charles’ website when it was first written about here, but I didn’t pay any particular attention to the interiors. So, what the heck, I created an xanga account and selected the option to verify my age by credit card:
Don’t know what “current application pool” means, but I was unable to enter credit card info to verify my age.
Do you have Charles’ photos so that a comparison of the interiors can be made?
Robert, the Metropolitician wrote an excellent post about the subject here.
Metropolitician is just a kyopo from America. He’s just a Korean, what does he know? Kidding.
In some points I agree with him, some points he’s flatly wrong.
He talks about Korean school system where abuse is rife but accuses that no Koreans will dare to raise the issue unless it’s foreigner related. Uh.. yeah right. Can we say paranoid?
Then I suggest at least watch news on Korean TV every night for few weeks, or even use the internet to do some research before spouting off of something that he knows absolutely nothing about.
News about foreigners misbehaving are just a blip in the radar screen if you add up and count all the stories of scandals involving Koreans. For instance, here’s one dealing with school sexual abuse that somehow missed making Marmot’s list of threads.
http://www.imbc.com/broad/tv/c....._1432.html
I’m sure if this TV show featured foreign teachers abusing kids, and not Korean teachers abusing kids, the story would have been all over the expat blogs, and would have counted as another attack by Koreans on foreigners.
Even from just top of my head, few months back, there was a storm of controversy when a cell phone camera recording of an brutal physical assult by a teacher was posted up in the internet which caused a fury of controversy. To even suggest that “Koreans don’t criticize themselves while eager to attack foreigners”, is getting old, and is ludicrous.
As for Robert’s
“Perhaps I’ve been reading the wrong media sources. The issue of prostitution has come under A LOT of media scrutiny. Both the failure of the Special Law on Prostitution and Korean “prostitution exports” have received infinintly more media attention than “English teacheres acting stupid.”
100% correct.
Once again 100% correct:
“Sure, in the end, nobody really does anything to change things, but the same goes for the English teacher issue, which has been around since at least last year and nobody has moved to make hagwons improve their hiring practices.”
The pattern of cycle is at first rage then followed by resignation that this is how it is and has been in Korea so there’s nothing you can do about it. The last cycle makes sure that nothing ever changes.
“I’m sure if this TV show featured foreign teachers abusing kids, and not Korean teachers abusing kids, the story would have been all over the expat blogs, and would have counted as another attack by Koreans on foreigners.”
So, to both you and Marmot, there is not society-wide discrepency between what Koreans think about GIs and now ESL teachers? The multitude of stories about Koreans behaving badly, like all the stories about crimes and drug use and prostitution, creates just the same stigma for the ESL instructor and GI as it does for the Koreans involved in these cases? Or, there is no stimga about GIs and now ESL instructors?
My point above being: 1 story like this in the Korean audience = how many of the same stories involving Koreans? Same-same?
Or, maybe I’m crazy in thinking the hyperbole of this tabloid article is matched by the thoughts of the society as a whole when it comes to GIs and increasingly ESL expats…..???….
Last piggy-back comment, whether a fresh idea hits me before someone replies or not:
There are a lot of types of hakwons in Korea. Some of them are for adults – like computer application/program classes my wife took.
Do Koreans consider these to be “schools” and the people in them “teachers”? Would it have been taboo for one of the instructors in my wife’s computer hakwon to go out on a date with a female student? Would the Koreans in my wife’s class and the hakwon have been terribly offended?
I don’t really know. But my guess is that there is not the same stigma in the society as a whole about instructors in such hakwons for adults dating a student as is generated by these stories about ESL expat debaughery. (And this is not talking about the high school student angle. I’m talking about two adults hooking up at a hakwon).
“So, to both you and Marmot, there is not society-wide discrepency between what Koreans think about GIs and now ESL teachers? ”
I didn’t say that, nor do I think Marmot did either. Foreigners are very visible in Korea, therefore unfair generalizations and stereotypes are inevitable. But as for Koreans not knowing or ignoring their own shortcomings, sorry, but that’s BS.
Shocking news! Shlocking news!
The whopping 33% of Japanese couples did not have an intercourse for entire year. And, the average couples only have 17 intercourses per year. Less than 1.5 times per month.
http://www.joins.com/article/2429261.html?ctg=1302
They must be getting it at geisha houses.
Please also note that some of the above links showed photos of a few ladies fully-clothed, and it should not be assumed, in any way, that those ladies ever posed nude for Chris Charles. They may simply be caught up in the furor.
If you go to his myspace site, however, you will see a photo of him with a Korean girl in his “pics” section in which he says, “A bad shot of me (with a Korean cutie) that I won’t post at my Xanga.” This may imply that the photos of the girls at Xanga were something more than friendly pics, however we may never know the truth to that. I never saw the full album, myself, so I can’t offer any proof one way or another.
You will find his myspace site here: http://www.myspace.com/cec32
“But as for Koreans not knowing or ignoring their own shortcomings, sorry, but that’s BS.”
And I don’t think I or anybody else was saying that either. My point was meant to say Koreans don’t pay attention to these things like they do with the GIs and now ESL instructors. That was my point from the start. And saying that, yes, in fact, Koreans do write and read stories about prostitution or the sex industry, or that conservative Korean society simply does not talk about such things, and whatnot, do tend at least to imply that what happens when a story like this comes out about a GI or ESL teacher ———- no – check that – when I story like this comes out with a few examles and points a strong accusation about GIs and people in the ESL industry in general – it is just par for the course with the same kind of treatment and thoughts such a story about a Korean gets.
Wasn’t that the jist of Marmot’s comment and your quoting and agree with it?
What does ““Perhaps I’ve been reading the wrong media sources. The issue of prostitution has come under A LOT of media scrutiny. Both the failure of the Special Law on Prostitution and Korean “prostitution exports” have received infinintly more media attention than “English teacheres acting stupid.”” mean if it doesn’t mean that?
I remember when I did a review of the Camp Town Prostitution issue, much of which I took from O’Sullivan’s Kunsan AB site, that Coyte Ugly was one of the banned clubs on USFK’s list. For whatever that’s worth…
—-
“What does ““Perhaps I’ve been reading the wrong media sources. The issue of prostitution has come under A LOT of media scrutiny. Both the failure of the Special Law on Prostitution and Korean “prostitution exports” have received infinintly more media attention than “English teacheres acting stupid.”” mean if it doesn’t mean that?”
—-
It means just that, there has been far more media attention on Korean prostitutes and their exports then English teachers acting stupid. Can you refute this fact?
I sure can refute the implication. And I did.
And the quote from Marmot was posted as a respone to what he quoted from me, which was: “When it comes to GIs and now ESL expats —– the Koreans WANT TO PAY ATTENTION.”
And you already agreed: “Foreigners are very visible in Korea, therefore unfair generalizations and stereotypes are inevitable.”
But I start to wonder if by inevitable” you mean “acceptable”?
Cm: “News about foreigners misbehaving are just a blip in the radar screen if you add up and count all the stories of scandals involving Koreans.”
But, it is the GIs and now ESL teachers who stick out in the mind and get the generalizations and sterotypes.
Which is what my theme has been: when it comes to the non-Koreans, Koreans want to pay attention.
A dozens stories about Koreans behaving badly can come and go over a period of months, and it is ho-hum. A English-Spetragate story comes and goes, it is creates a stigma that sticks.
Thus the charge of hypocrisy.
So the amount of stories Korea writes Koreans behaving badly is a mute point – at least as far as my argument goes. It does work against a blanket charge that Koreans never criticize themselves for the sex industry or school abuse, but not against what I’ve been saying.
And bringing in the Korean export of prostitutes that has been in the news recently – following the stories of arrests in the US – I guess we would have to do both a numerical count of stories on it and one related to USFK and GIs and then some polls to guage which item sticks in the minds more and creates the bigger negative lasting public reaction — with the USFK issue being foreign sex slaves at Camp Town Bars.
Many Korean schoolgirls whore themselves to Korean businessman to make enough money for quality conversational English lessons. They shouldn’t have to offer sloppy seconds to their foreign teacher to score a good grade now, should they? Isn’t that double jeopardy?
Retraction:
The above post involving “Chris” from the Korea Herald is incorrect, and in grave error. I will ask the owner of this site to remove it, but keep this post to tell others of the error.
The name of “Chris” from Korea Herald Newspaper was mentioned, and the facts and story link to this person is totally false. I am deeply concerned that there has been a mistake here, and am deeply sorry for the mistake. “Sorry” is hardly enough, and I feel terrible about it. I have slurred the name of a perfectly innocent person, based on what was said to me by a 3rd party who got confused by the person who took the photos, and a different “Chris” working for the Korea Herald newspaper. She made a mistake, and informed me of it today.
My deepest apologies to “Chris” from the KH, and for this situation. Any assumptions that there is a link between the individual who posted the photos, and “Chris” from the KH would be totally incorrect. He is totally innocent.
I am hoping this post will clear the name of a totally faultless individual, “Chris” from the KH. I have no malice against this man, or the place he works for. This was simply a case of mistaken identity gone batty, and a case of extreme stupidity on my part.
Chris, I am very sorry.
iliveinitaewon—post has been removed, as requested.
Please remove posts 77 (for wrongly naming the wrong person) and 75 as well.
Sorry for the problems this has created.
usinkorea from United States Said:
August 26th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
Teacher training: this is another recurrent theme in the loser ESL instructor discussion. …………
Excellent post. On the money.
It seems pretty messed up, but I’m wondering if kids really learn anything over there?
I know in lot of European Countries kids are taught English at an eartly age along side their own language, but they had worked out their system long time ago.
Iliveinitaewon,
Thanks for taking the time to both gather and then check the info and then correct the mistake. A good many/most people would have just left it at that or not felt badly about making a mistake.
Origami,
I think the kids learn. I doubt they will be fluent after 4 or 5 years, but I think they do advance. It would be interesting to check, because I think around now is the time period in which the first batch of people should be hitting college or close to it who were in early elementary school when this drive to use native teachers for kids began.
I tried to avoid teaching children when I first got to Korea, but I ended up enjoying it more. One big reason was the fact you could actually teach them. Adults were very set in how they thought they wanted to learn: free talk free talk free talk, and if you tried to introduce methods that were familiar to them – methods they had experienced in Korean schools but still failed to learn – they’d be bored and unsatisfied and switch to another hakwon.
So, I think the adults have largely wasted their money on English in hakwons. They usually don’t have the time or patience to study outside of class and all the get is that 2 or 3 hours a week sitting in hakwon, and they might only do that for a few months here, a few months there. I think the majority only improve a snail’s sprint in the end. But, I did see a handful of students take it seriously and stayed around the hakwon for a year or more and studied a lot at home who did move from beginning through advanced conversation level. But this was only 2 or 3 people.
Congratulations, Iliveinitaewon, not only did you get your facts wrong about “Chris,” but you’ve also unintentionally outed a local transsexual through your reckless and cavalier dissemination of information online. I happen to know one of the girls whose pic you linked to above, and when I worked out her secret myself several years ago, she specifically requested that I not reveal it to others. Did you happen to notice that even her name is on the pic you linked to, and that by connecting her name to her private sexual identity you were violating one of the first laws of sex in Korea, namely, BE DISCREET? I’m sure she’ll appreciate your “sensitivity” here very much indeed.
An expat posting paid pix of aging juicy girls online is not a scandal unless it is framed as such by sites such as the Marmot’s Hole, and in the process morphs virally in the usual nanosecond into a more generalized example of “sleazy foreign English teachers exploiting naive and innocent Korean women.” Marmot, by assisting that Korean tabloid reporter in writing her story, and not having all the facts straight yourself, you prove yourself to be part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. If you really cared about the issue of Korean stereotypes of foreigners in Korea, you would be translating from English into Korean articles that describe the amazing diversity of the expat community here, so that Koreans who can’t read English could have their minds opened up a bit more on the subject.
But it is obvious that expat sex scandals get far more of a response on your site than boring posts about Korean politics, so I doubt you’ll go out of your way to help improve the image of foreigners in Korea at the expense of your own site’s popularity. In any case, the next time you (or your cohorts) want to comment on controversial photos posted online, and thereby risk creating a firestorm and further contribute to the negative image of expats in Korea, at least try to be a bit more discerning about how you interpret said images first. The leap–implicit or overt–from “35-year-old It’aewon juicy girl” to “Korean high school girl” is a big one indeed, and one that only lazy folks, naifs or shameless provocateurs seem able to make.
The only “scandal” here is how many people in the K-blogosphere apparently do not have a life, and consequently get worked up over scandals that are only scandals in their own hyperactive imaginations.
I dare say the true “Son of English Spectrum” is the Marmot himself–along with his fellow co-bloggers, of course.
Pathetic.
“The only “scandal” here is how many people in the K-blogosphere apparently do not have a life, and consequently get worked up over scandals that are only scandals in their own hyperactive imaginations.”
Kind of have your cake and eat it too here, no? Marmot and the others are bastards for posting and commenting about a thing that will just cause more scandal about ESL losers, but then, the scandal is only in their imaginations…..
Did I assist her in writing her story? I didn’t have any contact with the reporter prior to the piece coming out in the hardcopy edition. And even then, I sent her a very critical email to her concerning the piece. And you did what?
I forgot it’s my job to improve the image of foreigners in Korea. And, yes, I happened to find Stupid Foreigner Tricks amusing.
I’m not sure about my “cohorts,” but I never commented on the photos. I commented on the site’s introduction. And for that matter, the reporter in question never said the images were those of high school girls. Read the article, either in its original or its translation.
As always, your comments are welcome, King Baeksu.
But of course!
Do I smell roses? It must be King Baeksu’s shit. It always smells the nicest.
Robert said:
“I was an English teacher for five-plus years. Spent four of them in a hagwon. Hey, some of my best friends are English teachers ™. What this means, of course, is that I’m well aware that thanks to hagwon hiring practices, there are a large number of very questionable individuals hanging around this country as English teachers. While I don’t like the way the media is going about this—and I wrote a very long email to the writer of the piece above to tell her so (and included a link to this post so that she could read English teacher opinions)—I don’t think it’s a bad thing that the English language education system and hagwon hiring practices are coming under media scrutiny. And let’s be honest here—English teachers do a fair amount of slagging of their own, mostly about Korean men and U.S. servicemen, and have been doing so for quite some time.”
IF I were as critical of you as you have been of all those English teachers you constantly tar with the same snotty brush, I’d say ‘Oh, Robert worked four years in a haaaagwon as a supposed ‘English teacher’. Well well well; he obviously wasn’t up to scratch or truly qualified either, was he? Just remember Robert, you’re working for a Korean newspaper so whoopdee fucking doo. I bet a lot of you guys are unqualified boozehounds who couldn’t get a real job back home too. sSme of MY best friends work for REAL newspapers back in the real world so I should know.’
Of course I don’t think that way but some us are getting a bit tired of your holier than thou attitude now that you’re supposedly ’somebody’ – in Korea. Trying to put yourself above the typical foreign English teacher with your job experience just seems kinda lame and ass-kissy. If you were in the system for so long you’d know that most employers here don’t know dick about English teaching qualifications, standardized testing, evaluation, etc. and you’d rightfully write more articles critical of Korea’s homegrown lack of international standards rather than what qualified foreign teachers choose to do on the weekends with wine and women. You’re pandering to the lowest common denominator and clamoring for attention to make yourself ‘not one of them’. Yes you are. Grow up.
As far as I’m concerned outing Hill trannies is a community service. Thanks Iliveinitaewon.
Oopps posted that twice. Well, maybe you should read it twice
Guilty as charged.
Probably true. Although for the record, I don’t work for a Korean newspaper. Not any more.
Never said I was “somebody.” And holier than thou attitude? I guess taking exception with someone who writes that his job is a good way to meet Asian women wanting to practice their “foreign oral skills” is “holier than thou,” eh?
Again, I never said I was “above the typical foreign English teacher.”
I think I made it clear above that I felt the problem was mainly that of the employers. And since when have I written articles—critically, anyway—about what qualified foreign teachers choose to do on the weekends with wine and women?
Actually, Bluedog, I apologize for giving offense with the “shady” comment. I meant it jokingly. Well, half-jokingly, anyway. And I consider myself very much part of that of group. After all, as I mentioned before, I did spend four years in a hagwon.
“If you really cared about the issue of Korean stereotypes of foreigners in Korea, you would be translating from English into Korean articles that describe the amazing diversity of the expat community here, so that Koreans who can’t read English could have their minds opened up a bit more on the subject.”
Yeah, and who would actually read them?
And Bluedog and others attacking Robert for being ‘anti-expat teacher’, what the hell are you talking about? I’m a teacher and I don’t feel in the least bit offended by what he’s written.
“What this means, of course, is that I’m well aware that thanks to hagwon hiring practices, there are a large number of very questionable individuals hanging around this country as English teachers.”
This is an item I’d question, but I have been out of the game now for 5 years. I was in it during the rapid rise of ESL instructors, and I left just at the time the fall of the Won and the growth of websites bashing the hakwon industry happened. There was a clear shift going on. I can’t say I saw a lot lower quality people coming to Korea, but I did see more New Zealanders and other non-North Americaners and started seeing the fake diplomas. But, I can’t speak for what has been going on sense.
I do question the idea of “large number of very highly questionable individuals”. In my 4 years, I only met 2 or 3 freaks or people who deserved being fired due to personality problems.
I also question what people hope to accomplish when they talk about “raising starndards”. To quote Outside in Korea via the Joongang Daily:
“Raise the standards for [teachers'] visas. Nothing less than a CELTA/DELTA [teaching certificate] or equivalent if the candidate is not university-educated to be a teacher. Interviews for those candidates, performed by people who understand English … and who can (as few Koreans seem able to do) winnow out the scam artists and freaks.”
I doubt requiring a teaching certificate is going to do much.
The typical ESl instructor is still going to be someone fresh out of college, unmarried, and with no real teaching experience. You are still going to get people who have to learn how to teach as they go, and you are still going to get young males used to going out and having fun who are going to continue to do so.
If you really wanted to boost the quality of teachers, you shift to the hiring practices of the international schools. I just checked on a recruiting firm for those type of jobs after I finish the MAT as a backup to my backup plan, and they only accept applications from people with 2 years of experience in a primary or secondary school – period. They do not even accept college teaching experience.
And if you want to cut down on the extracuricular activities, you would need to hire married couples or only teachers who are married who are going to bring their spouse with them.
If you set up these requirements, even if you just set up one or the other, you would effectively kill the hakwon system altogether, because they would never find nearly enough acceptable candidates.
Killing the hakwon system altogether would be a good thing, in my opinion, but it ain’t going to happen. And in the meantime, laying a lion’s share of the blame on a high percentage of people who make up the ESL crew who are wackos and sex deviants isn’t fair —- at least I can say with utter confidence it was not fair of the ESL crew I saw coming and going year to year in the 3 or 4 different hakwons I worked at in different areas of Korea.
Again, maybe things have changed since then – since 2000. Maybe it has gotten that bad. But I have my doubts, since by 1999, I was already hearing the same kind of thing on the internet as well. Like Marmot said, the ESLers are great at bashing the hell out of GIs and they do the same to themselves. It seems everybody is a jerk, loser, burgerflipping, Fonzi wannabe but the one saying so……
PS:
For those ESLers trapped in the hakwon industry in Korea who actually hold a 4 year degree, there is currently a critical shortage of teachers in the state of Georgia (USA) in the field of math and English (content, not ESL) – which means there are probably critical shortages in other states as well. The shortage has prompted a growth in university programs to churn out certified teachers by pulling in people who have already graduated with a math or English 4 year degree or related field who will take a year of extra course work in teaching. It is also possible to find a job sometimes if you simply agree to take such a course to certification. The state of GA also has scholarship and loans available where you are required to teach for 2 years in the state but have to pay back nothing.
And this is one reason why the ESL industry in South Korea would close down shop if they required a teaching certificate to get a visa. There are not enough “qualified” teachers, and other places are a hell of a lot more attractive to work in for certified people.
Bluedog: If you think Marmot is “snotty,” then that says a lot more about you then him. The guy is one of the most humble people I know.
USinKorea: You’re missing the point. The hagwon owners and the students don’t want teachers, they want entertainers. Think of it as traffic school: It’s an unpleasant thing you’re forced to attend (for most office workers, anyway) so you may as well go to the one you have the most fun at. The last thing they want is something that reminds them of high school.
Bluedog9, your posts have a trollish quality about them. Robert is a magnanimous blogger to not only tolerate but respond sincerely to your troll trash. Trolls are like mosquitoes on a warm July night. You smack one, and a few minutes later that buzzing sound returns.
Oh, BTW, welcome back to the Land of the Morning Calm, Bluedog9. Did you catch a red-eye Friday night?
Let me amend my comments in post #119. Only your latest post, #111, is a trollish personal attack.
Agreed. The man wears sackcloth to work, for God’s sake — give him a frickin’ break!
In Korea do people wear underwear under the hanbok? Just curious.
Robert, fair enough but whatever your gripe with leftist EFLers is, please know that I have never insulted US GIs. Why would you even think that? I may not like Bush but ’some of my best friends are American GIs’. I have no beef with them and have often gone out of my way to defend them from some of the more rabid locals. I find it disturbing that they’re sent here to help this country yet face derison from all sides. As for negative comments towards Korean men, well, yeah some of them, but I don’t think you’re exactly innocent of this yourself.
I’m a little tired of working my ass off to try to get some badly needed changes in the education system here which would greatly benefit students and teachers, only to have to read in the press and on blogs like this one how foreign English teachers are unqualified lazy scum who only care about whoring and getting pissed. It’s laughable when most of the ones doing the lion’s share of the bitching (the KTU, Korean English ‘professors’, the press) are nowhere near qualified themselves to evaluate language teaching qualifications or methods and throug their incation are the primary reason why students continue to recieve a sub-par education. In fact, they have totally ignored the dismal state of private ‘language institutes’ and ‘university language programs’ for years; this works greatly to their benefit because a lot of them would be given their pink slip with international standards in place.
The current media debate isn’t about unqualified foreign teachers at all; education has never been the issue. It’s all about a fear that perhaps they are not themselves up to scratch and society needs someone to blame for their shortcomings. They can’t seriously call the majority of these ‘burgerflippers’ on their comparative English teaching ability, so they adopt a hypocritical ‘moral high ground’ and play it to the hilt.
The education standards here are dismal and not because there happen to be a handful of foreign English teachers who shouldn’t be teaching. Education here is about making money, saving face, and giving students As to keep them happy. Any illiterate fool can start up a hagwon and rake in the bucks as long as he’s/she’s Korean. This environment just isn’t up to MY standards anymore. Sadlly I’ve realized what a waste a of time it is here for anyone considering a professional career in English language teaching. Time to bail out the bottom of the barrel.
Sonagi: early Saturday AM Jakarta – Seoul. Spent some time in Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand. Were you there as well? Lovely places. If you don’t like my comments you’d better respond with something other than ‘troll’ or smack a bit harder. Ciao.
“The hagwon owners and the students don’t want teachers, they want entertainers.”
I think you hit the nail on the head there, Wedge. I did my first year at a hagwon and there were some interesting things said between the owner/manager and the foreign staff. In a nutshell she told the workers NOT to try and teach – just to make the kids happy and want to come back. This was not a small independant place but rather a nation wide chain with a pretty good reputation. Some people try to balance the job of foreign happy clown with actual teaching while others choose to just roll with make the stay into a one year party.
I cannot say for sure if situations like this are widespread but I doubt this was an isolated occurance.
As was alluded to by many, just what does the government plan to do about the unqualified hagwon owners? I feel that it is they who either:
a) bring the “unqualified” (illegals, unchecked, etc)
b) turn the “qualified” (by hagwan industry definition) into the “unqualified”
(will ignore those that give an honest effort for the purpose of this topic)
The current system of having any 4 year degree holder as a teacher could work if the hagwons present them with an actual curriculum. Classroom management could continue to be a problem, but I think that it is pretty safe to say that even those with BEds or other such degrees must develop this difficult skill from practical experience.
It’s a shitty and corrupt system from top to bottom with no end in sight unless the government has the balls to regulate the hagwons and their owners. With free entry into something as lucrative and vital (societally based) as English education there will always be people accepting less than ideal candidates/behavior in order to pad the profit.
oops for spelling/typos…
I know it isn’t real teaching. I was laying out what they could do to get “qualified” teachers while also knowing they will never do it, because they would never be able to pull in but a fraction of the manpower needed in the ESL industry. If they really went for “qualified” (and to me that simply means experienced) teachers, about the only schools that would be open would be the international schools – and both the pay and perks would have to be upgraded and the typical slave-owning mentality of the hakwon manager erased.
Here is something on “qualifications”.
Georgia now requires all teachers to pass two standardized tests in the Praxis series. For English teachers, one test covers subject knowledge and the other tests writing ability.
I took them this summer. Before the test, I sat in a room full of both new graduates and veteran teachers who now have to take it. I listened to them, and it almost made me get up and leave.
They were all talking about how hard the test was and how unfair they had to take it. They talked about buying study guides and doing long study sessions together. They talk about how so and so had failed it, and they talked about how a lot of teachers were driving to Alabama or Florida to take the test, because it was easier there. I didn’t understand that because I thought Praxis was a nation-wide test, but evidently the subject tests are different for different states….I don’t know….I’m just saying what I heard.
The test was easy. I had done nothing with literature since 1994. The majority of the people in this room were people who had already been teaching either English content or ESL for many years. The others were people fresh from finishing a BA in English with a certification to teach middle and high school. How “qualified” in their subject area are they if they find the Praxis “hard” and something they have to study hard for????
Somewhat offtopic but something that has stuck with my through the course of the MA…
A quote by David Nunan to close his book “Language Teaching Methodology”
“Lastly, the claims made by champions of one method or another need to be treated with caution – after all, we have yet to devise a method which is capable of teaching anybody anything”
So how does one become unqualified to do something that nobody knows how to do? The future looks grim!
Bluedog, post 60 shows a Thai flag and the time 11:23 PM. Post 70 changes to a South Korean flag and shows a time of 10:21 AM. No need to use proxies. We’re all friends here.
Bangkok to Seoul is an approx. 5 1/2-hour flight and a 2-hour time difference; easily fits within the time difference of his posts you cite. Perhaps Bluedog was on holiday.
But Bluedog said in post #125:
in response my query in post #120:
As a chinese, I applaud what the Koreans are doing here. Many English teachers are just garbage. They are losers in their home countries and they take advantage of the fact that many east asias don’t know better. But things are changing. As a Chinese saying goes, ‘the fire can’t be contained by a piece of paper.’ People in Korea, China, Japan and other countries will know this losers better and some day these garbage will be swept out of Asia once and for all.
Whenever one reads about this kind of pervasive Korean anti-white racism, the real question to consider is: why do you foreigners put up with the kind of rabid racism that was drummed out of your own cultures years ago? Is it a guilt complex, masochism, childish liberalism, a fondness for argument? The obvious fact there is more economic opportunity and even the blue collar jobs pay more than you can make as a foreign English teacher in this god-forsaken bastion of ignorance.
But that\’s the real reason foreigners repatriate dissillusioned after less than 2 years here and few ever stick around beyond 10 years, isn\’t it. They come to see that foreigners are just not welcome; their very presence is a reminder of the national inferiority complex.
As for the \”English education problem\”, have you ever considered why English is so easy for anyone other than Koreans to learn? What is it about Korean culture that makes it impossible for Koreans to master even the fundamentals of English? The answer is obvious, and it has everything to do with why \”foreign bodies\” are rejected like a virus by Korean society.
If it\’s any consolation, it\’s axiomatic that people generally reap what they sew. the backwardness, general mediocrity and stagnation of Korean society and economic status all has its roots in this nationalist isolationist arrogance. It is the reason Korea has peaked, will not progress beyond their current state, and has begun a backwards slide into greater mediocrity.
As for me, I\’m not even a foreigner, and I already got out. What are you guys waiting for?
Always funny to read a Chinese or Korean who’s moved to the U.S. write something like that.
Who is more arrogant? Koreans or Chinese?
So xenophobia = poor English retention ability? Sorry, not so sure I buy that as the ‘obvious answer’ to the problems the English-learning system has.
What about university entrance exams? Unfortunately, the overbearing emphasis on almost everything in the Korean education system seems to be on taking and passing the Big Test. The fact that conversational English isn’t actually tested as part of the entrance exams, nor is a formal English interview a requirement for admission for many schools (and the government is working to keep it that way) seems to relegate English conversation to the ‘back burner’ of most students’ minds. Until the system either A) begins to require some competency in spoken conversational English (or better yet, the students’ choice of language) or (better yet) B) abolishes the entrance exams altogether, there won’t be a whole lot of progress made — written English, math, science, and (the Government’s Version of) history will all be more important than spoken English.
I also have a bit of a problem with the fact that English is a required subject, as well as the idea that it should be a required subject. Proficiency with a foreign language is a great thing to have and can enrich one’s life in a number of ways, but in the end, there’s still an over-emphasis on English, as if by learning English en masse, Korea can (magically, and only then) become part of the ‘developed world.’ Let students take French instead, if they really want to. Or Spanish, Russian, Farsi, or any other language their school sees fit to offer.
Additionally, students who want to learn English really should be more willing to practice with each other rather than with a book or a tape (or video, website, whatever…). Sure, they’ll probably make mistakes and reinforce errors that their English teachers will later try and beat out of them, but at least they won’t have to write everything down before they say it, and generally be more able to comprehend and respond to actual conversation (rather than memorizing rote responses from a book). I’m just thankful everyday here in America that when I ask “How are you?” I never hear, “I’m fine, thank you, and you?” Small pleasures.
I’m sure there’s more… and xenophobia might be a root cause of some of this, but I really doubt that it’s the cause of all of it. After all, if xenophobia impeded language-learning, North Korea wouldn’t have a single official who spoke anything other than Pyongyangeese.
Dogbertt, let me answer your question. Simply put, Chinese or Koreans who moved to the US know the western society better than their fellow countrymen back in China or Korea. They know the western society better and they can see that many “English teachers” are losers, jerks and the worst of the western society. Many of them (Chinese or Koreans who moved to the US) are top students from top unversities and are studying in the best American universities. Many (not all, of course) ‘English teachers’, on the other hand, don’t even have a degree. They are the worst of western society and are total losers. Thanks to their bad stupid misbehaviors in Asia and the internet, these loser’s good days in Asia are numbered.
Xi,
Uh…care to back that up with anything at all? And please inform me just what exactly you applaud Korea for doing? Did I miss a late news release that the hagwon system will be overhauled? Or do you applaud the scapegoating tactic being employed in order to cover up the corruption of the system in its’ entirety. Do you applaud sensationalistic ‘journalism’ practices? Please let me know as I am now very curious.
Do the “best American universities” teach that you can make broad based generalizations (both positive and negative) without offering up any proof? One thing that is clear is that these universities (assuming you attended one…and no…I could care less about your resume) can do little to eradicate prejudice.
Many Chinese in the U.S. are illegal immigrants, mostly illiterate and poorly educated, working in sweatshops, restaurants, brothels, and the like. They seriously lower the quality of life.
If you want English teachers out of Asia, I want those types of your countrymen out of North America.
Mizar5,
I failed badly at learning Korean despite a few years of effort, and it was not because of any exnophobic rejectionism on my part….
Same here. I guess I get my consolation knowing that out of the many employees I’ve asked here in this company and in the nearby facilities, all of them told me that English was a requirement during their hiring but none of them ever get to use it anyway.
So much for buying a saddle for a nonexistent horse. =)
How can you say these things lower the quality of life? Sweatshops keep your Fruit-of-the-Looms reasonably priced. Restaurants serve you tasty food, reasonably priced. As for the brothels, well, don’t go!
Mizar5,I failed badly at learning Korean despite a few years of effort, and it was not because of any exnophobic rejectionism on my part…
You\’re damn right – and it says a lot about American openmindedness that you even put forth the effort to speak a language of such minor importance and no doubt learned to converse better than the vast majority of Koreans – despite the fact that you hadn\’t been steeped in it since you were a child as they were.
The tragedy of not being able to construct a simple conversational sentence after years of schooling and expensive private classes is that it damns an entire society for either lack of intelligence or lack of openness (which is pretty much the same, isn\’t it?)
Zonath: So xenophobia = poor English retention ability? Sorry, not so sure I buy that as the ‘obvious answer’ to the problems the English-learning system has.What about university entrance exams?\”
Yes, Zonath, you\’re right that that is part of the systemic side of the problem, and that there are numerous other facets to this labyrinthian issue. You need to go deeper, however, to get to the heart of all these ever-arising facets that continue to contribute to the problem itself. To crack the source of the problem itself, ask what is the cultural attribute behind the phenomenon? What is it that all Koreans (correcting for a .05 standard deviation) commonly exhibit when confronting foreign nationals? Unease, paranoia, isolationism and a complex of psychological tendencies associated with acute insecurity about racial identity.
I suppose maybe you’re right, but you could just as easily say that about Americans who think immigrants are entering the country illegally to ‘take their jobs’ and worry that the dark-skinned boy from school is getting a little too friendly with their daughter. And don’t even get me started about the idiocy and cultural chauvanism that led to the US Congress objecting to the serving of French fries in the cafeteria. …and this amongst many of the (ostensibly, although I have my doubts) most highly-educated and well-traveled sector of the American public. Of course, America has just about the lowest rate of foreign-language learning in the developed world, so maybe you’re onto something there. Heck, we get our panties in a knot over the idea that maybe we should allow Spanish-speaking people in America to receive their primary education in Spanish (and learn English gradually) rather than sticking the kids in remedial English classes, teaching the rest of the subjects in English, and hoping for the best. Okay, so America is a bad example if you want to talk about an open, non-xenophobic society…
Zonath: “I suppose maybe you’re right, but you could just as easily say that about Americans who think immigrants are entering the country illegally to ‘take their jobs’ and worry that the dark-skinned boy from school is getting a little too friendly with their daughter.
Yes, Zonath, I agree that a small minority of Americans still suffer from this kind of primative thinking. But with the vast majority of Koreans still mired in this primative mindset, is it any wonder Korea remains so backwards, socially awkward and isolated?
Zonath: “Okay, so America is a bad example if you want to talk about an open, non-xenophobic society…”
Compared to other nations, America comes out pretty much ahead in these areas.
…which reminds one of Churchill’s quip about democracy (“It’s the worst form of government…except for all the others.”
For example, in the wake of the riots in France, U.S. Moslems have mused that the American “melting pot” does not leave them isolated and disenfrancized as in Europe.
Bottom line – nowhere in the world have so many peoples come together so successfully as in the USA.
Sonagi from United States
Posted August 28, 2006 at 8:25 pm | Permalink
Bluedog, post 60 shows a Thai flag and the time 11:23 PM. Post 70 changes to a South Korean flag and shows a time of 10:21 AM. No need to use proxies. We’re all friends here.
Uh, ok….thanks? Yes I was in Thailand and I guess the Thai flag shows on this site; yes an Indonesian flag was displayed on this site (although from Thailand), and in Indonesia I even noticed a Thai flag, too. In Singapore and Malaysia I was too busy having fun at the beaches to bother with Internet sites (I do have a real life sometimes). Was my vacation itinerary ok with you or is there some hidden question/comment in your fascination with my whereabouts? If you need some good info on places to stay or eat I’ll gladly oblige; just come out and ask it my man.
Xi Said: “Many of them (Chinese or Koreans who moved to the US) are top students from top unversities and are studying in the best American universities. Many (not all, of course) ‘English teachers’, on the other hand, don’t even have a degree. They are the worst of western society and are total losers. Thanks to their bad stupid misbehaviors in Asia and the internet, these loser’s good days in Asia are numbered.”
Man, you painted yourself into a corner with this one. “Not all” foreign English teachers in Korea have no degree”? Really Xi? I mean are you sure now? I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and allow that what you meant is that the vast majority of foreign English teachers working legally in Korea MUST BY KOREAN LAW demonstrate proof of their degree and bring their sealed transcripts to immigration. Thus, the vast majority of foreign teachers here DO in fact hold at LEAST one four year university degree, from a REAL university (not even counting TESOL certificates, other training and experience etc.).
And “our days in Asia are numbered”? Well maybe but the last time I checked the job offerings in EFL there were more positions throughout the world than ever. Even so, the job market isn’t restricted to only Asia.
See, first you need to compare the “unqualified” foreign English teachers with Korean English teachers in terms of 1) fluency 2) teaching methodology 3) willingness to impose real world grading testing/standards. As is quite obvious, the vast majority of Korean English teachers here just ain’t up to task and should count themselves lucky to have a cozy pension-guaranteed job “teaching English” in the schools and universities. Or perhaps somebody like yourself (?) so well steeped in our “western culture” and having “attended the top American universities” will come over and show us “worst of western society” foreigners how it’s done? Well, I don’t usually stoop to this level and I can forgive typos (I make them as well) but judging from your fluency all I can say is this: at your students’ peril.
By the way the fact that you came to the US from a top Korean university (or Chinese or whatever) does’t really impress me. I’ve seen the university “standards” here. Why did you leave your home country to study in the US or Canada or England or Australia or Germany or France – which is where most of the English teachers in Korea also studied – if you weren’t simply chasing after our western loser standards?
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