Korean Univs don’t make the List, again

As long as we’re talking about education standards here – Newsweek International did another listing of the world’s 100 best universities that caught my eye.  There are many of these done these days; this one focused on the extent of the school’s “globalization”, with particular weight on the international-class research that its professors have successfully published.  You will join me in not being too surprised that not a single Korean university makes the top 100.  The top university from anywhere in Asia comes in at number 16:

1. Harvard University
2. Stanford University   
3. Yale University   
4. California Institute of Technology   
5. University of California at Berkeley   
6. University of Cambridge   
7. Massachusetts Institute Technology    
8. Oxford University   
9. University of California at San Francisco   
10. Columbia University   
11. University of Michigan at Ann Arbor   
12. University of California at Los Angeles   
13. University of Pennsylvania   
14. Duke University   
15. Princeton Universitty   
16. Tokyo University

Yo, 13 out of those top-16 are American! — that’s real dominance.  Glad to see U of M, where I attended 75~77, in there at least…

The only 14 other universities from Asia (after Tokyo) to make the list are:

29. Kyoto University
36. National University of Singapore
38. Australian National University   
50. University of Sydney   
53. University of Melbourne   
57. Osaka University   
60. Hong Kong University of Science and Technology   
64. University of New South Wales   
68. Tohoku University (Japan)
69. University of Hong Kong   
71. Nanyang Technological University (Singapore)
91. University of Queensland   
94. Nagoya University   
96. Chinese University of Hong Kong

… everyone of them in either Japan or a former colony of England.  Not a single one from New Zealand, Malaysia or India however, and none from China or Taiwan seem to qualify — so maybe Korea needn’t feel quite so bad.  Perhaps this list’s criteria and method are biased towards certain countries — or maybe this is just how it is for educational quality.

It’s disappointing to me that Korea still doesn’t show up here; the problems are well-known but they do seem to be improving some.  I know that my own school is making some strong official attempts to upgrade standards in the sort of way that would be recognized on lists like this — getting published in recognized high-level international journals is now a condition of continued employment for junior professors like me – but there is heavy entrenched resistance, and a long way yet to go to achieve that higher level….

the Newsweek article is here.

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67 Comments

  1. Gravatar Randomperson your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    Just two minor nitpicks:

    13, not 14, of the top 16 are american, and the link doesn’t work.

    Nevertheless thank you for the interesting information.

  2. Posted August 20, 2006 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

    Thanks for the corrections! I fixed the link — still learning how to do this blogging thing — and when looking over the list i saw “Cambridge” my brain associated that with the city next to Boston where Harvard is located… this sort of mistake is exactly why i’m not a prof at one of the world’s top 100 universities :-)

  3. Gravatar seoulmilk your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

    hoohoo! university of washington at 22.

  4. Gravatar Arghaeri your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 4:18 pm | Permalink

    Another minor nitpick - only 9 of the other 14 are asian, as far as I am aware Australia hasn’t yet moved to asia.

  5. Gravatar Brendon Carr your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 5:51 pm | Permalink

    U Dub at 22 and basketball season hasn’t even started yet.

  6. Posted August 20, 2006 at 5:54 pm | Permalink

    I am aware that according to formal geography Australia is thought of as a separate continent. In the past decade or more, however, its government has been promoting it as Asian, a part of East Asia, a long-term PR-campaign both international and domestic, for the purpose of reducing Australian alienation from its close neighbors and increasing the business it does with them. Polls show that increasing numbers of Australian citizens do consider themselves “Asian” in some sort of way…

    For the purposes of a discussion like this, a global cultural issue considered in terms of regions, i do think it is appropriate to include Australia, New Zealand & along with the Asian nations — tho perhaps we could use the popular term “Asia-Pacific region” to be more precisely inclusive…

    OK, 15 out of the 100 are Asian-Pacific universities… OK?

  7. Gravatar seouldout your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

    Saddend to see the U of Chicago so low. The Big 10 represents itself quite well. Really surprised by the absence of the Indian Institute of Technology.

  8. Gravatar gbnhj your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

    Some might be interested to know that the University of Washington has joined with Korea’s Inha University, as well as several other schools worldwide, in a program called the Global U8 Consortium. The main goals of this program are to raise global educational standards and increase cross-cultural education.

    An interesting benefit to students at member schools, however, is that they may attend any university within the group, and simply pay local tuition rates to their own university. Credits transfer between the schools, and students may complete their degrees overseas, and even graduate from the other institutions. To do so, they must submit letters explicating what they intend to accomplish while attending one of the universties (they must specify where they wish to study). There may be additional requirements: students wishing to study at the U of W need have sufficiently high TOEFL scores, for example.

    Students need not apply for acceptance at the other university, since Global U8 membership already confers acceptance to all students. When transfering, students’ previously accumulated credits are accepted fully. Further, they simply continue to pay the same tuition to their local institution (another huge benefit to international students).

  9. Gravatar austin your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 8:38 pm | Permalink

    Don’t attend classes, don’t do the exams, or assigned work, but MUST still pass,the student. Why because teacher must be ‘Kind’, since it’s not the lazy, dumb useless, lying students fault. He/she couldn’t do the work because:
    Can’t afford text books (student owns a top of the range And Pon)
    Student works very long hours (spends 12 hours at the office, but works 3)
    Sick every morning (recovering from the party the night before)
    Parents are poor (student drives a car).
    Directive from the Korean head of department.
    20% to get A+ equivalent to Western grade C+
    20% to get A Western grade C
    20% to get A- Western grade C
    20% to get B+ Fail
    20% to get B Fail

  10. Posted August 20, 2006 at 8:52 pm | Permalink

    A little grad school anecdote from a “famous” language uni in Korea…if you have lived here a while, this is not a surprise.

    A former student told me that he was having trouble affording going to grad school. When I asked if it was because of rising tuition every semester, he replied that in order to get his project approved, he needed to present his advisor with an array of gifts until the advisor was satisfied. Then and only then would he be able to proceed.

    Coupled with that the simple fact that most students in K universities spend about 5 minutes before class studying for midterms and final exams, direct plagiarism is not seen as academically dishonest, and professors are under the hammer not to let anyone fail except for in extreme cases, and it is easy to see why Korean Uni’s don’t cut into the top 100…

  11. Posted August 20, 2006 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

    Korean Universities have very large disadvantage when competing with Western or Japanese Universities, they’re too new. Three of many things looked at in these rankings is number of internationally recognized graduates, internationally recognized professors, and number of published research articles.

    Harvard was established in 1636
    Stanford 1891
    Yale 1701
    Tokyo University 1877
    vs
    SNU 1946
    Yonsei 1885
    KU 1905

    It’s just not possible to compete under the same set of rules with such a short comparative history. Plus it doesn’t help that some of the best minds in Korea (as well as the rest of the world) will leave for American Universities as well. Their achievements are credited to said American Universities.

  12. Gravatar dda your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

    Funny that the couple French “universities” are neither Universities nor diversified. They’re specialized grad schools for the elite… Not exactly what I would classify as “global universities [taking] into account openness and diversity, as well as distinction in research.” After all, MBA schools don’t appear in this listing either…

    As for Korean Unis, being in that list is still way beyond their reach.

  13. Gravatar Wedge your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

    I’ve heard SNU comes in at 330 or so on the world rankings. But when you consider that passing the entrance exam itself is the important thing for the students and the profs are lazy and corrupt, what do you expect?

  14. Gravatar Haisan your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 10:44 pm | Permalink

    > Korean Universities have very large disadvantage when competing
    > with Western or Japanese Universities, they’re too new.

    Huh? 1885 is “too new”? There are plenty of schools on that list much younger than Yonsei (at a quick guess, I would estimate well over half).

    Remember, this was not a poll of overall academic excellence. This focused on globalization and international-quality research. Korean professors do not publish much (especially outside of Korea), so local schools did not do well on the survey. Which is a real problem, but it is a specific problem. After all, Princeton landed at No. 15.

    But a few schools, like GIST (formerly K-Jist in Gwangju), Pohang and Kaist do understand the importance of research and publishing, and are trying hard to move in that direction. (The SKY schools are pretty much hopeless, imho). (Well, Kaist was for a little while… Don’t know about now.) Like most things in Korea, when an organization actually interacts and competes globally, it does pretty good; when it pays lip service to international standards and spouts a lot of jargon, it tends to suck and be totally insular.

  15. Gravatar Haisan your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 10:49 pm | Permalink

    Btw, if anyone here feels like raising the level of research and instruction in Korea, applications are being taken at GIST right now:
    http://www.gist.ac.kr/gist-boa.....amp;nnew=2

  16. Posted August 20, 2006 at 10:53 pm | Permalink

    “Huh? 1885 is “too new”?”

    When this type of ranking favors research universities, and Yonsei is more known as being a medical university, yes. NU is the big research university, however it only has a 50 some odd year history of graduates to pull award winners from. Plus, starting recently, all of the ‘easy’ stuff to discover has already been swapped up by the older universities.

    I actually would like to make a correction about the founding date for NU. Further reading tells me it was originally founded in 1924 as an Imperial Japan University, so it does have a few more years of graduates to call upon for leading research, but nothing like a university like Harvard.

  17. Gravatar Remort your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 11:31 pm | Permalink

    What a big surprise, rote memorization and copy & pasting reports isn’t a good way to ‘get through’ their education apparently.

    I’m a bit surprised that Samsung University, err Seoul National University didn’t make the list again. HAHAHAHA! Most of the American professors I’ve seen that come to Korea do visiting professorships at Yonsei rather than SNU. Seriously though, it’s a bit shocking to see Japanese universities make the list and NO Korean universities make the list at all.

    Come on Koreans, if you’re going to plagiarize, at least change the FONT and a few words around. :P :P :P

    –Remort

  18. Gravatar Pyotr your flag
    Posted August 20, 2006 at 11:42 pm | Permalink

    Korean Universities have very large disadvantage when competing with Western or Japanese Universities, they’re too new.

    The Australian National University was founded in 1946 and comes in at number 38 on that list, so I’m not too sure that age is a good excuse.

    Maybe it’s because Canberra comes second after Pyongyang in the “interesting nightlife” stakes… Nowhere to go, so might as well do some groundbreaking research…

  19. Posted August 20, 2006 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

    Regarding the age discussion: Sungkyunkwan dates back to 1398, according to its website, which would make it one of the oldest universities in the world.

    Hmm, the University of Toronto, #18; not too bad. Incidentally, although I never attended the University of Alberta, it’s interesting to see that “UofA” punches way above its weight when that’s defined in terms of both size and age.

  20. Gravatar Maekchu your flag
    Posted August 21, 2006 at 2:20 am | Permalink

    I’m not a university teacher in Korea but several of my friends are. One good friend who teaches in Kyongsang-puk do (I won’t name the university) told me several of his students had failing grades, never attended class and one was even caught cheating on a test with a PDA. When he tried to give these students a failing grade, he was instructed by his superior to let them all pass with high averages. Apparently the parents contributed large sums of money to the school so their children were not allowed to fail.

    It’s no surprise to me that Korea has no universities on this list.

  21. Posted August 21, 2006 at 3:45 am | Permalink

    Korean universities not in the top 100??? Shocking mews!!!

  22. Gravatar Joel your flag
    Posted August 21, 2006 at 4:43 am | Permalink

    Jagiellonian University in Kraków was established 12 May 1364 A.D. , yet it’s not on the list. So I don’t think age was the deciding factor.
    Though I only see like one entry from mainland europe on the list. Maybe they were scoring on quality of their English Literature departments?;-)

  23. Gravatar Joel your flag
    Posted August 21, 2006 at 4:50 am | Permalink

    NathanB: I don’t see Sungkyunkwan on the list:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L....._operation
    It seems they’re pulling old brewery’s trick - find oldest book with world “beer” written on it and claim on the bottle to be “the number one since 1629″ :P

  24. Gravatar Sonagi your flag
    Posted August 21, 2006 at 5:10 am | Permalink

    How Newsweek arrived at the rankings:

    We evaluated schools on some of the measures used in well-known rankings published by Shanghai Jiaotong University and the Times of London Higher Education Survey. Fifty percent of the score came from equal parts of three measures used by Shanghai Jiatong: the number of highly-cited researchers in various academic fields, the number of articles published in Nature and Science, and the number of articles listed in the ISI Social Sciences and Arts & Humanities indices. Another 40 percent of the score came from equal parts of four measures used by the Times: the percentage of international faculty, the percentage of international students, citations per faculty member (using ISI data), and the ratio of faculty to students. The final 10 percent came from library holdings (number of volumes).

    Given the strong weighting on research published in English and international presence, it is not surprising that US and other English-medium universities would dominate.

    Traditionally there has been very little accountability for Korean professors. A tenure-track position is extremely difficult to obtain, but once hired (thanks in part to requisite “gifts” to department faculty), tenureship and title promotion was almost automatic. This is changing, at least at the SKY university where I used to teach. Job performance measures that included research output have been strengthened, and as oldsters retire, they are being replaced mostly by brilliant and energetic scholars worthy of teaching the students who worked so hard to get in. The force behind these changes is a group of middle-aged and young professors who earned PhDs abroad and have done sabbaticals overseas. They see the differences and they seek to raise Korean elite university education to international standards.

    My main complaint about Korean universities is that hiring practices remain sexist. The number of women professors is increasing, but most new hires outside of traditionally female departments like nursing, education, and health are men. I would also like to see more foreign-born tenured faculty and students, but given the fact that Korean is not a widely spoken language, I think Korean university communities will continue to be almost exclusively Korean.

  25. Gravatar gaemee your flag
    Posted August 21, 2006 at 7:00 am | Permalink

    It’s surprising to see many people here seem to take this ranking seriously.

    “We evaluated schools on some of the measures used in well-known rankings published by Shanghai Jiaotong University and the Times of London Higher Education Survey.”

    Although the Times of London is an internationally well-known institution, I don’t think many people outside China would have heard about the Shanghai Jiaotong University. The fact that the newsweek magazine gives a credit to a little known Chinese university is an indication as to how credible this ranking is:

    -National University of Singapore and Washington University in St. Louis are higher
    than any university in Germany, France, Holland or Sweden.
    - Singapore (population 4 million) has 2 universities, and Hong Kong (population 7 million) has 3 universities in the world’s top 100.

    The ranking may make Americans feel good about their country, but perhaps Americans need to ask themselves why their top companies, such as General Motors and Ford cannot stay ahead of the competition and have to cut the jobs when the country has the best universities in the world.

  26. Posted August 21, 2006 at 8:28 am | Permalink

    Not to worry: the Pohang University of Science and Technology celebrated its 20th anniversary with a pledge to be in the top 20 by the year 2020: POSTECH Vision.

    According to this Academic Ranking of World Universities - 2006, it is somewhere in the 300s.

  27. Posted August 21, 2006 at 8:46 am | Permalink

    I would say it also seems the method used to judge the schools tossed out the kind of work done in the humanities. If you are working on aspects of your own society, you probably aren’t going to publish much in journals outside your nation or in other languages. It seems this measuring stick heavily favored hard sciences.

  28. Posted August 21, 2006 at 9:28 am | Permalink

    What, no GW?

    This list sucks.

  29. Gravatar Wedge your flag
    Posted August 21, 2006 at 9:45 am | Permalink

    Gaemee said: “The ranking may make Americans feel good about their country, but perhaps Americans need to ask themselves why their top companies, such as General Motors and Ford cannot stay ahead of the competition and have to cut the jobs when the country has the best universities in the world.”

    U.S. unis consistently rank way better than European or Kiwi or whatever schools, with the exception of Oxbridge. You may want to ask yourself what the heavy hand of the state, profs as civil servants and a lack of competition do to your tertiary system.

    And why do Ford and GM suck, despite the presence of #11 U of M (Go Blue!) next door? One reason is the wholesale capitulation of management to absurd, uncompetitive union demands when times were good. Despite those companies and other laggards, we still enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world, which boils down to productivity, of which education is certainly a factor. New Zealand’s productivity is 59% of the U.S. level. Check this 2004 OECD comparison:

    http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/28/17/36396820.xls

    Speaking of productivity, better get back to work…

  30. Posted August 21, 2006 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    > Joel from Poland
    > I don’t see Sungkyunkwan on the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....continuous _operation

    The introduction to that list makes it clear that it is only counting European and European-style universities, deliberately excluding the Chinese, Korean, Indian and Arab-Muslim institutions as not really comparable.
    It’s an interesting question, whether the Sungkyunkwan can be said to have a *continuous* history since 1390, because what it does has changed so radically…

  31. Posted August 21, 2006 at 11:44 am | Permalink

    > Sonagi
    > Job performance measures that included research output have been strengthened, and as oldsters retire, they are being
    > replaced mostly by brilliant and energetic scholars worthy of teaching the students who worked so hard to get in. The
    > force behind these changes is a group of middle-aged and young professors who earned PhDs abroad and have done sabbaticals
    > overseas. They see the differences and they seek to raise Korean elite university education to international standards.

    I am also strongly noticing this trend, and hope it succeeds in the long run. I was hired tenure-track, without any gifts to anyone and without any personal connections — strangely, they really do just seem interested in what i can bring to the team, how i can upgrade the quality of what they do… A year now, and I’ve detected no corruption or personal agendas.
    Except maybe:

    > My main complaint about Korean universities is that hiring practices remain sexist. The number of women professors

    Actually, my section was five women professors and only one man (all Koreans of course) — and I have the suspicion that the man pushed to hire me just so that he would be less-outnumbered, have someone to drink with :-)

    > I would also like to see more foreign-born tenured faculty and students, but given the fact that Korean is not a widely
    > spoken language, I think Korean university communities will continue to be almost exclusively Korean.

    Things are rapidly changing there too — that my Korean is not good enough to be able to lecture my subjects in it actually turned out to be a *positive* factor in my being hired tenure-track — the students are now demanding more classes being totally in English (not just with-English-textbook-but-lectured-in-Korean), and the administration is trying to make that happen (as they want to eventually make it onto lists like this, and to do that they need more foreign professors AND foreign students, and more of their students to exchange-study overseas, and so they need more courses taught in English, and existing Korean professors are shyly reluctant to do this, even though able) — they don’t even *want* me to use Korean, the less the better — this is very new, but will probably be the trend for the future at all the better universities.

  32. Gravatar rowan your flag
    Posted August 21, 2006 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    two points that i think need clarification.

    first, Wedge, what you linked to is labour productivity which is more to do with the amount of capital in the economy and in reality is no real reflection on labour efficiency or what you would expect labour productivity to be.

    second, SNU actually made it into the top 100 this year in the times world rankings which are probably the only respectable rankings published, and i think New Zealand migt have done ok too.

  33. Posted August 21, 2006 at 2:31 pm | Permalink

    I see Cambridge is ahead of Oxford. Hah, take that, Oxonians!

    (No, didn’t go there, but have visited the place and have a distant cousin going there, so I guess that counts for something.)

    Alas, my fine, upstanding alma mater doesn’t make the list. But Steve Nash went there (University of Victoria), so that should count for something, right? Go Vikes, all the same!

  34. Posted August 21, 2006 at 2:36 pm | Permalink

    Following up on comments 25 (Sonagi) and 26 (Gamee), I wouldn’t necessarily trust a ranking system published by a university—any university—to be objective! Then again, Shanghai Jiaotong doesn’t even make the list….

    But I would agree with commenters who question the ranking system altogether. Any such system—even the best—is ultimately going to be arbitrary in the selection and weighting of criteria used for measurement and comparison.

  35. Gravatar Bluedog9 your flag
    Posted August 21, 2006 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

    rowan from Australia Said:
    August 21st, 2006 at 2:25 pm

    ” SNU actually made it into the top 100 this year in the times world rankings which are probably the only respectable rankings published, and i think New Zealand migt have done ok too.”

    Actually the Times Rankings for 2006 are not yet published. You’re going on the 2005 rankings when SNU squeaked in at 93 for the first time; compiled just prior to Hwang’s dethroning when the scientific world still believed that SNU was making legitimate and original breakthroughs in human stem cell research. The Times Rankings themselves are considered by many to be overgenerous as for the first time they have not included achievements such as nobels and so on - a highly contentious issue. The domestic Korean academic community seems quite incensed at not making the list and has protested, even dragging foreign adjuncts in tow to challenge Newsweek’s decision. Yes, as one poster commented, some of the bigger universities in Korea are trying hard to publish, but this in itself has done nothing to improve the overall academic culture and the problems this creates.

    New Zealand on the other hand still has some very respectable universities, quite laudable considering its minute population.

  36. Gravatar seoulmilk your flag
    Posted August 21, 2006 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    koreans shouldn’t be surprised by the rankings. koreans admittely acknowledge that while it’s hard to get into the universities, it’s damn easy to graduate. further, like someone said before, many of the bright minds here go abroad to study.

  37. Gravatar itinerant physicist your flag
    Posted August 21, 2006 at 7:39 pm | Permalink

    Prediction: 15 years from now the prominence of Korean academic research on the world stage will match the prominence of their economy.
    I don’t know how things were in the past, but as for the present, from what I’ve seen so far at SNU, there is lots of ambition (from the younger faculty at any rate) to be among the best in the world, and confidence that they are going to get there. And with the government pumping in money (seems there’s a lot of national pride tied up in this) the conditions are looking good for future success. No doubt there will be stuff-ups and hard lessons to learn along the way (e.g. the Laughlin fiasco) but I’m betting on them to get there eventually.

  38. Gravatar hardyandtiny your flag
    Posted August 21, 2006 at 8:18 pm | Permalink

    other than medicine, it’s all up to you, the university is meaningless.

  39. Gravatar itinerant physicist your flag
    Posted August 21, 2006 at 11:56 pm | Permalink

    If it was all up to me then they’ld really be screwed ;) Fortunately it isn’t though. An economically successful country of 47 million people can surely create at least one world class university if they put their minds to it, and the Koreans seem to be putting their minds to it very much now that economic success is in the bag.

  40. Gravatar gammazamma your flag
    Posted August 22, 2006 at 12:24 am | Permalink

    If the Korean Univ. students didn’t partake in all those pointless demonstrations and actually seriously studied for once, then perhaps their schools would be up there.

  41. Gravatar dda your flag
    Posted August 22, 2006 at 3:40 am | Permalink

    Abouth POSTECH [comment #27], this fine institution is one of the most close-minded institution I ever saw. They want to be the next KAIST – figures – and while the campus is something many insitutions in the world should be envious of, the whole thing reeks of 1970s Korea.

  42. Posted August 22, 2006 at 4:02 am | Permalink

    Dda, based on an experience I’ve had dealing with POSTECH, I might be inclined to agree. Can’t really say more, though.

  43. Posted August 22, 2006 at 4:22 am | Permalink

    On another note, the Princeton Review has just released this year’s list of the top party schools in the US of A. UT Austin topped the list, with Brigham Young coming in last.

    The survey was restricted to the Republic only, so no word on where Oxbridge, Shanghai Jiaotong, Seoul, Yonsei, Koryo, KAIST, or POSTECH fit into the list.

  44. Posted August 22, 2006 at 4:23 am | Permalink

    Link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....ty_schools

  45. Gravatar Sonagi your flag
    Posted August 22, 2006 at 5:54 am | Permalink

    I was hired tenure-track, without any gifts to anyone and without any personal connections

    Well, you are a foreigner. Most Korean profs at the uni where I taught were exceptional and highly qualified, but gifts are standard. Ditto for Korean graduate students sitting for their PhD thesis exams.

    Actually, my section was five women professors and only one man

    Then tourism must be a female dominated field like nursing. You’re at Kyunghee, right? Out of curiosity, I went to Kyunghee’s website to check out the male/female ratios in various departments. At my former university, humanities (except foreign languages) and social sciences had fairly even male/female student ratios (but mostly male profs, of course), so I picked history first. One woman and six men. Most of the men had Korean PhDs while the woman was a Berkeley grad. At my former university, the women were so super qualified - armed with degrees from US Ivy League schools or elite European institutions like the Sorbonne - they couldn’t be rejected. I checked several other departments and found all or mostly male faculty.

  46. Gravatar MrChips your flag
    Posted August 22, 2006 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    I’m skeptical of the value of any poll that consistently places Harvard at the top listing. Nothing against Harvard but that kind of poll has a very “outsider” taint to it that seems evidentiary of doing little research. Princeton at 15? Strange… US News and World report just put out their list of best US schools and had Princeton #1 and Harvard at #2 after a 3-year tie between them for first. Also, Chicago was tied for 9th in that poll after being up in the 20’s the previous year.

    I might add also that it’s better to reference a ranking that lists schools by department or program rather than the overall school.

  47. Gravatar bluejives your flag
    Posted August 23, 2006 at 2:43 am | Permalink

    Universities these days have the moral character of electronic churches, and as little educational value. They are an embarrassment to civilization.

    To begin with, sending a child to a university is irresponsible. These days it costs something like a quarter of a million dollars, depending on your choice of frauds. The more notorious of these intellectual brothels, as for example Yale, can cost more. This money, left in the stock market for forty hears, or thirty, would yield enough to keep the possessor in comfort, with sufficient left over for his vices. If the market took a downturn, he could settle for just the vices. In the intervening years, he (or, most assuredly, she) could work in a dive shop.

    See? By sending our young to college, we are impoverishing them, and ourselves, and sentencing them to a life of slavery in some grim cubicle painted federal-wall green. Personally, I’d rather be chained in a trireme.

    Besides, the effect of a university education can be gotten more easily by other means. If it is thought desirable to expose the young to low propaganda, any second-hand bookstore can provide copies of Trotsky, Marcuse, Gloria Steinem, and the Washington Post. These and a supply of Dramamine, in the space of a week, would provide eighty percent of the content of a college education. A beer truck would finish the job. The student would save four years which could more profitably be spent in selling drugs, or in frantic cohabitation or—wild thought—in reading, traveling, and otherwise cultivating himself.

    This has been known to happen, though documentation is hard to find.

    To the extent that universities actually try to teach anything, which is to say to a very limited extent, they do little more than inhibit intelligent students of inquiring mind. And they are unnecessary: The professor’s role is purely disciplinary: By threats of issuing failing grades, he ensures that the student comes to class and reads certain things. But a student who has to be forced to learn should not be in school in the first place. By making a chore of what would otherwise be a pleasure, the professor instills a lifelong loathing of study.

    The truth is that universities positively discourage learning. Think about it. Suppose you wanted to learn Twain. A fruitful approach might be to read Twain. The man wrote to be read, not analyzed tediously and inaccurately by begowned twits. It might help to read a life of Twain. All of this the student could do, happily, even joyously, sitting under a tree of an afternoon. This, I promise, is what Twain had in mind.

    But no. The student must go to a class in American Literatue, and be asked by some pompous drone, “Now, what is Twain trying to tell us in paragraph four?” This presumes that Twain knew less well than the professor what he was trying to say, and that he couldn’t say it by himself. Not being much of a writer, the poor man needs the help of a semiliterate drab who couldn’t sell a pancake recipe to Boy’s Life. As bad, the approach suggests that the student is too dim to see the obvious or think for himself. He can’t read a book without a middleman. He probably ends by hating Twain.

    When I am dictator, anyone convicted of literary criticism will be drawn and quartered, dragged through the streets as a salutary lesson to the wise, and dropped in the public drains.

    Why is the ceiling spinning? Maybe I’m caught in a gravitational anomaly.

    The truth is that anyone who wants to learn anything can do it better on his own. If you want to learn to write, for example, lock yourself in a room with copies of Strunk and White, and Fowler, and a supply of Padre Kino, and a loaded shotgun. The books will provide technique, the good Padre the inspiration, and you can use the shotgun on any tenured intrusion who offers advice. They tend to be spindly. A twenty-gauge should be sufficient.

    Worse, these alleged academies, these dark nights of the soul encourage moral depravity. This is not just my opinion. It can be shown statistically. Virtually all practitioners of I-banking, advertising, and law began by going to some university. Go to Manhattan and visit any prestigious nest of foul attorneys engaged in circumventing the law. Most will have attended schools in the Ivy League. The better the school, the worse the outcome. Any trace of principle, of contemplative wonder, will have been squeezed out of them as if they were grapes.

    Perhaps once universities had something to do with the mind, the arts, with reflection, with grasping or grasping at man’s place in a curious universe. No longer. Now they are a complex scam of interlocking directorates. They employ professors, usually mediocre, to sell diplomas, usually meaningless, needed to get jobs nobody should want, for the benefit of corporations who want the equivalent of docile assembly-line workers.

    See, first you learn that you have to finish twelve years of grade school and high school. The point is not to teach you anything; if it were, they would give you a diploma when you passed a comprehensive test, which you might do in the fifth grade. The point is to accustom you to doing things you detest. Then they tell you that you need four more years in college or you won’t be quite human and anyway starve from not getting a job. For those of this downtrodden bunch who are utterly lacking in independence, there is graduate school.

    The result is twenty years wasted when you should have been out in the world, having a life worth talking about in bars—riding motorcycles, sacking cities, lolling on Pacific beaches or hiking in the Northwest. You learn that structure trumps performance, that existence is supposed to be dull. It prepares you to spend years on lawsuits over somebody else’s trademarks or simply going buzzbuzzbuzz in a wretched federal office. Only two weeks a year do you get to do what you want to do. This we pay for?

  48. Gravatar Rhesus your flag
    Posted August 23, 2006 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    what

  49. Posted August 23, 2006 at 10:05 am | Permalink

    Someone has finally gone far, far over the deep end. I blame the ‘Lady Kyunghyang’ post.

  50. Gravatar partypooper your flag
    Posted August 23, 2006 at 5:23 pm | Permalink

    I’m sure Bluejives meant to note the source of that lengthy comment, but just plumb forgot.

    http://www.fredoneverything.ne.....Column.htm

    (Got suspicious when the comment went for more than one paragraph without bashing America or white men dating Asians.)

  51. Gravatar gammazamma your flag
    Posted August 23, 2006 at 11:17 pm | Permalink

    How do I get those cool pictures to show up next to my blog name?

  52. Gravatar slim your flag
    Posted August 24, 2006 at 12:21 am | Permalink

    I’m afraid plagiarism is the least of BJ’s problems.

  53. Posted August 24, 2006 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    Gammazamma (#52): If I recall correctly…

    Go to Gravatar (http://www.gravatar.com), open an account, choose and upload an image, and wait for them to accept it and rate it (depending on the image’s content). As long as the email address you used to sign up matches the email address in your profile here and on other Gravatar-enabled blogs, the image will automatically appear thereafter.

    It’s been a year since the Marmot colony all rushed off to upload gravatars, so my memory may be a little hazy on one or two details.

  54. Posted August 24, 2006 at 1:32 am | Permalink

    …You choose the image yourself, not from the Gravatar site as might have been implied (although they might have stock images…I don’t recall now).

  55. Gravatar Zonath your flag
    Posted August 24, 2006 at 3:51 am | Permalink

    I’m afraid plagiarism is the least of BJ’s problems.

    I really do wish BJ would go and plagiarize himself a new personality. The whole racist/misogynist angle is getting boring.

  56. Gravatar Sugar Shin your flag
    Posted August 24, 2006 at 4:23 am | Permalink

    The USofA has huge numbers of the greatest universities in the world. Period. Correct.
    The RofK has not. What’s your problem?
    Japan has great universities, too. Man, they’re the 2nd biggest economy in the world. Shame on them, if they hadn’t good education institutions. Korea has a long way to go, that’s for sure. But there are more than enough colleges and universities in the US not on this list metionend above, where every dyslexic dumbfuck would get a degree worth of nothing…

    By the way, in my eyes Harvard is one of the most overrated prominent Ivy League hole on this planet. And SNU is a piss-hole of an university. The brightest elite of Korea studying there… right now I’m laughing my ass of. Any European mee too university has a higher level.

  57. Gravatar gbnhj your flag
    Posted August 24, 2006 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    That bluejives would plagarise an article dealing with education’s weaknesses is ironic, but not especially surprising. After all, none of his other posts are particularly original in thought - they simply represent a tired old hate, perhaps recycled from other sources as well.

  58. Gravatar dogbertt your flag
    Posted August 24, 2006 at 9:30 am | Permalink

    Hypocrisy, racism, and plagiarism — it’s the bj trifecta!

    What surprised me more is that bj reads Fred Reed.

  59. Gravatar Sonagi your flag
    Posted August 24, 2006 at 9:37 am | Permalink

    Here is a link to a blog with a properly credited copy of the original:

    http://www.strike-the-root.com/62/reed/reed1.html

    BJ, even though you are a troll, I had a teeny spec of admiration for your effective use of the English language to whack the beehive and send all the Western men buzzing out angrily with their stingers erect. I thought that plagiarized piece was unusual because of its essay-like length and organization, the fact that it didn’t respond directly to any ideas in the OP or comments and didn’t contain any insults against Westerners in general or your nemeses.

    Endless trolling and now plagiarizing. Robert’s been rather tolerant of your antics, I’d say.

  60. Gravatar jyce your flag
    Posted August 24, 2006 at 9:48 am | Permalink

    Hypocrisy, racism, and plagiarism — it’s the bj trifecta!

    You complaining about hypocrisy and racism is like the WNBA complaining about lesbianism.

  61. Posted August 24, 2006 at 10:50 am | Permalink

    Jyce, you are an English teacher right? Are you the 1.5 generation Kyopo English teacher on the blacklist?

  62. Gravatar jyce your flag
    Posted August 24, 2006 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    Nope, Chewbs. But you’re a hotel manager that lives with your mother and is into taxidermy, right?

  63. Gravatar wjk your flag
    Posted August 24, 2006 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

    I graduated from a school within the TOP #15 in the world on this list, but I am 100% confident that I would have been rejected from Seoul National University.

  64. Gravatar wjk your flag
    Posted August 24, 2006 at 12:06 pm | Permalink

    a little observation note. I’d say most of the commenters and readers here are US expats and Korean kyopos. I guess it was inevitable that these rival two groups would clash.

  65. Gravatar MrChips your flag
    Posted August 30, 2006 at 1:34 am | Permalink

    wjk makes a good point but it begs further explanation. I graduated from a school that will never make the top 500 and am confident that the Ivy League would have giggled at my application, coming out of high school - passed it around for others’ amusement perhaps. However, the top 3 in Korea all accepted me for post-grad work and I’ve subsequently been accepted by a “top 10″ program for doctoral work. There’s a lot of variables involved in getting into a “good” program and being a “good” student isn’t necessarily the main qualifier.

  66. Gravatar gammazamma your flag
    Posted August 30, 2006 at 2:33 am | Permalink

    Sewing, thanks!

  67. Posted August 30, 2006 at 2:37 am | Permalink

    You’re welcome…now we just have to wait for Robert to switch back to a template that actually shows gravatars…or that does in my browser, at least….

2 Trackbacks

  1. By L'Ombre de l'Olivier on August 20, 2006 at 7:57 pm

    Top Universities Speak English…

    The Marmot’s Hole has a link to newsweek’s recent ranking of the world’s universities. The Marmot points out that there are no Korean universities there, which is true, but I think more than that what should be clear is the overwhelming dominance of…

  2. [...] Seoul. He was suitably impressed. But he would be less so if he knew that 16 years later, Korea has yet to ever appear on a “Top 100″ list of world universities, based on any [...]

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