In his Liberation Day address, President Roh called on Japan to prove just how apologetic it is through substantive action:
“A long time has passed since the end of World War II and it may be unwarranted to raise an issue with the amendment itself. Japan should wholeheartedly reflect upon their actions in the past, act on their past apologies on several occasions, and prove in a clear manner that it has no intention of repeating them,” the president said.
Truth be told, the address wasn’t too bad. I was a bit worried, but in the end, the president didn’t say anything particularly harmful. He made mention of the wartime operational command issue, but his comments were relatively level headed and diplomatic. Still no mention of how, exactly, Korea got liberated, let alone which countries did the liberating, but I wasn’t expecting any, and I guess we don’t make it a point to say thank you to France on July 4 (although we should). Anyway, here is the address in Korean. I’m sure Cheong Wa Dae will post an English translation later in the day.
Meanwhile, Japanese Prime Minister (and master Mongolian archer) Koizumi Junichiro marked Japan’s WW II surrender with—you guessed it—a visit to the Yasukuni Shrine. Even more impressive, he managed to diss Chinese and South Korean leaders AND praise George W. Bush in the same sentence:
“If Bush of the United States tells me not to go [to the shrine], would I stop? No, I would still go even then. But President Bush would not say anything so immature,” said Koizumi, one of George W. Bush’s closest foreign allies.
Man’s got mad oratorical skills, although it should be pointed out that while Bush has said nothing about Yasukuni—heck, Bush probably thinks Yasukuni is a Chinese restaurant—House Republican Henry Hyde has.
Needless to say, the Korean Foreign Ministry slammed the visit, and the Korean ambassador to Japan paid a visit to the Japanese Foreign Ministry to lodge a protest.
And in other Liberation Day/Yasukuni Shrine fun, a museum curator in Daegu has released some photos he collected that include images of Japanese troops surrendering to American forces in Okinawa and—get this—the Korean royal family praying at the Yasukuni Shrine. Personally, I have no idea why the images of Japanese troops surrendering would grab anybody’s attention except, perhaps, the shock some younger Koreans might feel at learning that Kim Il-sung, Kim Ku and the Korean Independence Army weren’t the only ones fighting the Japanese.
The ones of the Korean royal family at Yasukuni, however, are indeed pretty surprising. You have Crown Prince Yi Gu and two other princes standing shoulder to shoulder with the Japanese royal family, and Crown Princess Yi Bangja (who was Japanese anyway) makes an appearance as well.
The Yasukuni photos are from October 1941, just prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. A Seoul National University Korean history professor told the Chosun Ilbo that it appears the Korean royal family was forced to pray at Yasukuni in order to help mobilize the Korean people for Japan’s upcoming war effort. He explained that because the act signified Korea’s colonial subjugation, the royal family would never have prayed at the shrine voluntarily.
99 Comments
Maybe Roh can ask for 40 acres and a mule.
Considering all the various towns, schools, statues, Naval ships ect, dedicated to marquis de La Fayette in the US, I can hardly see that as a valid comparison. For that matter, comparing the American revolution to the moribund Korean revolutionary efforts seems funny as well.
Curiously, it seems the last prince of Korea, Li Gu, “voluntarily” chose to part from this world last July at his family’s former Imperial-Japan-era palace, now the Akasaka Prince Hotel, where he must have spent his childhood in humiliation under the Japanese. I guess to the present Koreans, any collaborative activities with the former occupier must have been “forced.” (Either that, or the person is a traitor. )
I guess you could also point out that July 4 simply marks our UDI, which we issued before French intervention. We wouldn’t actually win said independence until the Treaty of Paris, which was signed on Sept. 3, 1783 and ratified on Jan. 14 the following year. Having said that, and recognizing that yes, America has honored the French (and La Fayette in particular) for more extensively and, yes, the American independence struggle was far more energetic, the fact remains that without French intervention (in terms of arms, troops, ships and money), we’d be speaking much better English than we are now, and yes, I think we should make it a distinct point of remembering that on our national holiday.
I don’t see what the big deal korean prince visiting yasukuni is.
1) they were conquered
2) there were no class-A war criminals in yasukuni. yasukuni was never a big issue until late 1970s when the notorious 14 were moved in,
3) yasukuni in 1941 would not have a plate saying “American forced Japan to attack Pearl Harbor with its emabrgo, and did this to revive US from economic recession”
Sunbin, I say youre spot on. I wonder though why that Korean history professor felt he had to come out and say that the royal family were forced and would never do something like visit a war shrine voluntarily. I think people need to recognise that the world of yesterday can’t be judged by the morals/political leanings the people of today have. It was a different time and it seems that Koreans today want to make sure it all fits neatly into the modern idea of Korea. It doesn’t and can’t fit because they refuse to believe that people were capable of joining the Japanese. For all they knew Japan might control Korea for a thousand years!
Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia and always will be. 2+2=5. Kimchi cures SARS.
Sunbin,
If the average Korean believes that they were conquered by force (though they were in a broad sense of the term), it should matter since there must be plenty of Japanese wardead at Yasukuni who were involved with the invasion of Korea, no? (Actually, there are many soldiers enshrined who died during the occupation of Taiwan, but none for the Korean annexation.)
I don’t see why the Korean press seems to think it’s a big deal. Prince Lee Eun was a lieutenant general of the Imperial Japanese Army. It was probably one of his ceremonial duties to visit Yasukuni, then called the Shokonsha.
Sunbin—No, it would not have class-A war criminals in it in 1941. It would, however, hold the memorial tablets of those who had fallen in Japan’s wars from 1853 to 1941, including the first Sino-Japanese War and the Russo-Japanese War. That being the case, yes, some might find photos of the Korean royals at Yasukuni to be particularly bitter.
That’s actually a good point. Guy was a graduate of the Japanese army academy. And for posterity’s sake, here’s a picture of him as a kid with Ito Hirobumi. Just heartwarming.
So, the Korean Royal Family, basically are
“Korean citizens who cooperated with Japan…”
Hmmmm, so does that mean the Korean government is going to “confiscate assets” from those related to the royal family?
And, back then, the people of Korea, just by association of being ruled by the royal family - doesn’t that make the entire country full of people who “cooperated with Japan”?
Something to think about.
the issue with yasukuni, is not yasukuni itself, or the dead soldier in general. (at least this is what China’s official position is, not sure about korea’s.)
it is the 14 war criminals. in fact, china did not even complain about the class B/C war criminals in yasukuni (maybe this would be the next complain….who knows). i suppose this is how koreans view the matter as well.
– but there is some difference, because korea was occupied for a much longer periods, and some may not lived to be tried at the Far East War Tribunal.
japanese soldiers who died in the invasion in korea and japan, are not guilty. they were just following orders. i never heard about China (or Korea) complain about them being in Yasukuni.
in fact, if you read chinese history and literature, bravery in enemy were always respected and praised.
however, the reality is, many soldiers may have committed crime and atrocity during the war, but there is no prove except for those tried. China has been flexible and only focues ont he class-A up till this date.
To quote an example. You guys probably know about Togo Heihachiro, the Admiral who defeated a larger Russian fleet in 1905.
While millions were killed in Manchuria and Korea in that war. China’s view (and all PRC history books I have read) is that both Russiana and Japanese imperialists committed a lot of crime on Chinese (and Korea) soil. However, Togo was generally respected and given very positive assessment for his military success in Chinese books.
Robert,
if i were a Korean. i would find that photo bitter as well.
however, it is no less (or no more) bitter than seeing him in a japanese uniform or bowing to a japanese official.
my point is, yasukuni’s “fame” was only established in 1970s. prior to that, it was not too different from other shinto shrines. yes, some war dead weer honored there, but many other shinto shrines (and, as many historians argued, shintoism itself) are associated with the militarism in WWII.
—
there are very good and strong points for China/Korea to denounce yasukuni, as long as class (A/B/C) war criminals are there, and the lies in the museum persists.
however, if China/Korea do not draw the line (about the war dead who were not sentenced to be war criminals, including the kamikaze, e.g.), the accusation of China/Korea being unreasonable would score some points.
“A long time has passed since the end of World War II and it may be unwarranted to raise an issue with the amendment itself. Japan should wholeheartedly reflect upon their actions in the past, act on their past apologies on several occasions, and prove in a clear manner that it has no intention of repeating them,” the president said.
ugh…the address wasn’t too bad until that part. what a fool.
talking about ‘too bad’….imagine German FM saying this
“On Tuesday, Abe, a security hawk known for his tough stance toward China and North Korea, said final judgment on who bore the heaviest responsibility for the war should be left to history. ”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200.....rine_dc_19
Re: “prove in a clear manner”. I, too, am perplexed at this demand. How on Earth does Japan “prove” no intention to resume aggression against its neighbors? Abolition of the Self-Defense Force? Dissolution of Japan as a political entity, and submission to the Great Han Empire?
I think people may be missing something here… Let’s look at No’s quote again:
The ‘them’ that ends that sentance is ambiguous. While it could refer to ‘actions in the past’, it could just as easily refer to ‘past apologies’. Perhaps No is really asking Japan to stop apologizing — saying that the past is forgiven and that now Japan and South Korea should be looking towards a future where the two countries can work out their differences without resorting to tantrums thrown over mere symbols…
…Or maybe it’s just a shitty translation by Yonhap.
The long-waited China-Japan War is about to start within five years.
NK will be the first attack squad from the Chinese side. Hu will deny his involvement but he will supply NK with oil, weapon and intelligence.
NK will shoot some missiles to Japan and Japan will retaliate and land in NK. China will automatically enter the war as Japan approaches the border.
See what I wrote six month ago.
http://koreanamerican431.blogspot.com/
SK? The two sides, the conservative and the progressive(Commie), will fight and kill each other. There will be no resistance to either the Japanese or the Chinese to just enter the area to rape and pillage.
Koreans like to kill their own.
I am so happy that this win-win-win scenario is happening for the US. All four countries, Japan, NK, SK and China will be in ruins after the war. Total ape-shit ruins.
The WWIII is fought in the FarEast Asia and once-mighty China and Japan go down together, to utter poverty. For Japan, there is no US to save it this time.
Asians will be losers once again, licking their empty rice bowls.
Well, they deserve it. Like kids who constantly get into trouble cannot amount anything, their own violent tendencies bring forth their eventual ruin. They, China and Japan, will reap what they deserve.
And, this war will be the first time, nuclear weapons both strategic and tactical will be used without any restraint. These Asian hordes will fight like devils from Hell. Civilians will be killed as if they were soldiers.
Kill, kill, kill. Tora, tora, tora.
Millions and millions will die.
And for what? To show his dick is longer and more powerful than the other guy’s dick!
In the end, no one wins. Only sounds heard are those of orphans’ crying in the ruins.
“How on Earth does Japan “prove” no intention not to resume aggression against its neighbors? ”
ppssst.. I think what he’s trying to say is please stop apologizing then right after that, turn around and worship war criminals as semi gods. But I digress, that is such an unreasonable and an impossible request to fulfill.
I just have one advice for Koreans, just ignore it. No amount of thrashing around and whining will make one iota of a difference, as long as Korea is relatively in a weak position economically and politically in the world. So you won’t get too much sympathy from the outside. After all, Korea isn’t England or France. The best way to handle it would be to concentrate on problems at home, and making the country to fulfill its full potential. The rest will fall into place after that.
Bad translation is the generous view. Above is the phrase in question, direct from the speech’s original Korean text. The “them” referred to in the English report is the word “과거”, which means past conduct or past events. I’m by no means an expert translator, but I’m good enough. Roh refers to the past conduct of Japan, meaning its aggression.
And on Liberation Day, the US men’s basketball team wiped the floor with the South Korean team, 116-63… with the South Korean fans giving a “huge ovation” to the US team (according to AP: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/arti.....140D93.DTL). Happy happy, joy joy.
Buduk,
If you are not careful, some unscrupulous movie producer in Korea is going to steal your story for his next big blockbuster.
i thought the oz friend downunder put the whole thing of war-criminal vs other war dead quite well.
http://www.theaustralian.news......01,00.html
RE: Sunbin’s link -
Our foreign minister has proven himself an idiot for involving us in this particular fight. The funny thing is that my mother used to take care of him as a child.
I watched the game. The score would have been more lopsided were it not for the (Korean) referees’ determination to overlook travelling violations by Korean players, except in the most egregious instances. Seriously, the footwork of the Korean team was so abominable it made me question whether they understood the rules of the game.
gbevers,
You’re still in Korea.
Plan on getting out in five years. The projection scenario I wrote is coming true every day.
At the beginning of this year, nobody thought NK missiles would become hugh problem. I smelled the rat when NK military officers en mass visited China.
See my January posting by clicking my id.
As the US leaves the region, pent-up anger between China and Japan will explode int heavens. NK is a pone. SK is a dunce.
Millions will die.
I meant NK is a pawn. A pawn of China.
Koreans would say, “NK is a dog of China”. And, some who have been to Europe would use the expression “poodle”.
In any case, KJI is licking Hu’s arse.
Might I be the first to suggest that Baduk be dropped from a cliff, just for leaving us with that image?
Actually the ‘them’ part in ‘no intention of repeating them’ is a translation of “과거와 같은 일”, acts/things similar to [what happened] in the past. This sentence isn’t easy to translate, as it’s convoluted [read badly formulated], and would be better rewritten than just translated. But there’s no doubt at all about the repeating part.
Baduk, I like your theory, I’ve been saying the same thing for a while. But there is one part I can’t understand/agree with..
“For Japan, there is no US to save it this time.”
Why not? In your own theory, NK attacks Japan first, not the other way around. Why wouldn’t the US get involved when it’s #2 ally gets attacked from enemy #? (3 perhaps?)
‘this is an internal affair of japan.’ bush spokesman
ah, if only japan’s victims were white and jewish.
‘this is an internal affair of japan.’ bush spokesman
translation: ‘we couldn’t care less about the death of millions of asians. we can’t relate to it. all those slanty eyes and all, you know. it’s like we yawn knowing we killed thirty thousand iraqis. they’re just brown people.’
‘how dare korea make fun of our sacred people, the jew. racist koreans with their nazi bar(singular)!’ whined the drunk expat
It always takes a Nulji to boil issues down to their lowest, crudest possible level.
Why is it that our trolls (Pawi and Baduk) can’t seem to write in more than 1-2 sentence paragraphs? Is it really true that small minds think alike? I mean, it can’t be that difficult to write more than one or two sentences at a time that are logically related in some way After all, I do it. I suppose that if you’re going to troll, it might make sense to use a succession of one-liners (much like you might use a shotgun to increase your chances of hitting a small, fast-moving target), but mostly, it just makes the person using that tactic look like a crank.
‘I’m going to go look at pictures of KJI giving Hu a rimjob.’ whined baduk.
Millions will die.
Zonath,
I am not a good writer. But my ideas are good.
For you, I upgraded the line: KJI also licks the balls once in a while (when requested).
Darin,
Man, Japan is the second richest country in the world. You guys have to wipe your own asses from now on. The US is busy fighting Moslems in the MiddleEast.
Now git! Git going! Wipe!
Baduk,
No offense to the baby, but I enjoyed your posts much more when you were a cat. Please bring back the cat.
Baduk,
Peddle your gay porn somewhere else. Just because I support your choice doesn’t mean I want to read explicit depictions of your bedroom activities.
By whose measure? By GDP, Japan is third (China is second). By per capita GDP, Japan is #20. Or are we still stuck in the 1980s?
Now, if you could just get your facts straight, then maybe someone would take you seriously. Really, if you’re using such outdated information to extrapolate patterns and make predictions, how can your predictions be anything but wrong? Sure, you might get lucky, but by the same token, I could predict a meteor will hit Pyongyang within the next year. If it does, then I use that to support my claim that I’m making accurate predictions. If not, then it’s probably been forgotten, anyhow. See any similarities to your own case? Congratulations. You’re just like every other astrologer and psychic prognosticator out there — wrong most of the time. While such techniques might work on idiots like Ronald and Nancy Reagan, I would at least like to think that most of the commentors here are at least intelligent enough to see through such inanity.
All three countries - Japan, Korea and China - continue to be world class in being disingenuous about this “issue.” In spite of self righteous, diplomatic pontifications, the fact is that nationalist politicians in all three nations to whip up mass emotional support for domestic ends. All three have major skeletons in their WWII closets, but with China and Korea pointing at Japan to keep attention from their own past humiliations and collaborations, and by Japan pretending they are doing nothing offensive, one wonders where this part of the world may be heading.
The Japanese may be rightly criticized for moving the war criminals’ names — including civilians who should not be included as per the shrine’s own rules — into Yasukuni in the 70’s. But China and Korea are worthy for censure in how they milk this issue when they need to do a better job of cleaning up their own backyards — such as rewriting their own history textbooks to give a more accurate of some pretty embarrassing 20th century history.
To the victor belongs the grace of mercy. The liberated may whine.
OUR JAPAN, OUR COOL
Nulji, you were probably still in diapers when then President Ronald Reagan laid a wreath at a tomb in Germany’s Bitburg Cemetery, where SS officers are interred.
some of japans victims were white and or jewish. why do you think they got hit with the big bomb ? twice. !! and that’s why koizoo admires and respects bush so much. because bush and co. don’t talk the talk if they can’t walk the walk. just sends the gay plane….and kills you and your mother without a blink of an eye. without hesitation. no conscience.. when it’s the “other” people. i.e “native americans”… nearly 99.99% extermination. to this day, i still haven’t met an american indian of pure blood. i might have run into one of them in those casinos but i doubt it.. their blood is so diluted, they’re more european or african in geneology.. i have no stats.. i’m just guessing.
if it wasn’t for all of the baggage far east carries in their hearts with them, things might be different. but remember, if it weren’t for arming and modernization of japan by america.. being fully aware what affect it would have in the region.. the blame and culpability rests in the hands of americans as well.
its just the stupidity and the false sense of invincibility and its absolute corruption in heart and soul, its pure evil at work by those motherless japs.. that by default, those evil japs must pay and pay and pay, till the day comes when there are no more japs to be found….forever and ever.
What is “pure blood”? The blood of persons of mixed ancestry is not “diluted.” Blood is an essential bodily fluid that brings nutrition to our cells and carries away toxins.
Japan got hit with the big bomb because its Axis buddies, Germany and Italy had already surrendered.
So America gets all the blame for creating imperial Japan? Japan’s first non-Asian contacts were with Portugal, and did a roaring trade in weapons and machinery with Western Europe prior to WWII. America did not modernize nor arm Japan. Japan modernized and armed itself through contacts and trade with the West.
okay okay.. i’ll add portugal to the list. thank you for the reminder/history lesson.
sonagi,
were these SS officers found guilty in nuremburg?
were israel and US media silent about that and blamed israel back then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitburg
seems bitburg does not contradict pawikirogi’s point.
Sunbin,
How can you even say that Pawikirogi has a point?
BTW, you should have looked up President Reagan’s entry, not Bitburg.
Better still, read a book…
Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.....ontroversy
Zonath,
Please show a curtesy of checking internet data before going into one of your garbage tirade.
Do google search or go to wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L.....nominal%29
Reagan said that the laying of a wreath at Bitburg was a mistake due to some kind of miscommunication. He didn’t realize it contained SS members and would never have visited if he had known this.
Ghola,
“okay okay.. i’ll add portugal to the list. thank you for the reminder/history lesson.”
And don’t forget Great Britain. It was the Brits who sold Japan their Navy, before the Japs went off and mastered the trade by themselves. By the way, a really great show on dropping the Bomb on the Discovery Channel this month, which seconds Sonagi’s point (”Japan got hit with the big bomb because its Axis buddies, Germany and Italy had already surrendered.”). Japan got hit twice because, even after the first bomb, the military kept preparing to fight on whatever the consequences and commit national seppuko. I especially loved the quote by a surviving crewmember of the Enola Gay: “I don’t think about all the people we killed. I prefer to think about all those we saved, including Japanese military and civilians…”
Now there’s a difficult intellectual concept. By forcing your enemy to surrender, you are saving not only your own, buy also his. Particularly apt in this case where the invasion of the Japanese mainland was a pending fact, and one concept called for seizing Korea for use as a springboard into Japan.
Weren’t the Japanese also trying to save the Chinese and the rest of Asian from Western Imperialism?
By the way, during my visit to the US this summer, my dad told me a story that he was told by someone who had come back from the war in the Pacific. The man said he had captured five Japanese and took them to his commanding officers thinking he would be pleased. His commanding officer told him that he would have to guard the Japanese, himself, and feed them from his rations. The man then took the Japanese out away from the camp and shot them.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....world.html
Interesting article. And MacArthur was right. In the long run, the Soviets were even worse than the Nazis.
The Americans killed hundreds of thousands in Japan before they dropped the bombs. Watch “Fog of War” with Robert Macnamara. They firebombed Japanese cities which were mostly built of wood and killed thousands and thousands of civilians. Modern historians prefer to believe the atom bombs were used just to show Russia that the US had the bomb and weren’t to be messed with.
“Modern historians prefer to believe the atom bombs were used just to show Russia that the US had the bomb and weren’t to be messed with.”
Some modern (revisionist) historians claim this, but certainly there is plenty of disagreement amongst historians over the actual reasons for dropping it. Many would dispute this.
Baduk,
You obviously have as little understanding of economics as you do anything else. Nominal GDP means very little when attempting to calculate actual wealth, as it uses official exchange rates as its measure, rather than what the country actually produces. Since China pegs its exchange rate to the dollar at an artifically low level, it appears lower on the list of GDPs than its place as the world’s second-largest economy would warrant. Likewise, since North Korea’s official exchange rate with the dollar is so high, it would appear as a much richer country than it actually is (if North Korea released GDP figures.) On the list of GDPs, China is 2nd by purchasing power parity, not Japan. Since you seem to value Wikipedia as a source, here’s a direct quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L....._%28PPP%29:
(emphasis mine)
Please stop distorting the facts to fit your arguments.
jiwonsi,
aren’t we looking at exactly the same wiki entry?
the point is. reagan went there once, it became a world wide controversy. koizumi went to something much worse, every year. US (and many in the west) said they respect his freedom.
the reaction, if there are 14 Nazi convicted at Nuremberg, would have been googol times larger.
“The Americans killed hundreds of thousands in Japan before they dropped the bombs.”
that was because there were a lot more firebomb raids than a-bomb raids. the reason a-bomb was called ’strategic weapon’, is that the 2 bombs dropped were just a demonstration.
whatever conspiracy theory that followed, which ignored these facts, are at best, conspiracy theories. not academically “history”.
—
OTOH, the fact that firebombs killed a lot more civilians precisely demonstrated the point that the 2 A-bombs created less harm (comparatively), but achieved much better results (for both countries, and all east asian countries). viva enola gay!
Sunbin,
I provided the example of Reagan’s visit to Bitburg to counter ever race-conscious Nulji’s silly claim that the US government only cares about white, Jewish victims. After Reagan found out about the SS graves, he went ahead with the ceremony in the face of opposition from white, Jewish Americans and others.
Reagan’s visit to Bitburg is also different from Koizumi’s visits to the shrine in that he was paying respects to German troops, not US troops. The equivalent would be Hu laying a wreath at a Japanese cemetery that contained the graves of WWII soldiers.
As for the Nuremburg convictions, US General Curtis Lemay, architect of the Tokyo firebombing raids, commented once, “I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal. Fortunately, we were on the winning side.” The Nuremberg trials are controversial among Western historians because a) only leaders on the losing side were tried and b) some leaders on the losing side escaped trial, most notably some members of Japan’s imperial family, who actively led the pillage and conquest of Asia. If you haven’t read Sterling Seagrave’s The Yamato Dynasty, I highly recommend this book. The section on Japan’s conquest of Asia is well-researched.
Both sides are to blame. The very fact that China and Korea complain loudly about the visits means that Koizumi must make very public visits to show that Japan can say “no” to its neighbors. It is ironic that Koizumi timed his most recent visit to coincide with the 61st anniversary of Japan’s surrender. China and Korea should try a different approach - ignoring the visits, which take place only once a year - and see how Japan reacts. I’m less concerned about Koizumi saying a few prayers for dead generals and more concerned about the building next door, the misnamed Yasukuni Peace Museum, a whitewash of lies and distortions about Japan’s role in WWII.
Zonath,
In post#38, you wrote “By whose measure? By GDP, Japan is third (China is second)”.
When I checked the facts, Japan was the second as I wrote in post#36. And, China was 4th, after Germany.
When I corrected your “fabrication” on my post #49, you let loose red herrings on post #57.
I state my simple fact once again. Japan is the second richest country in the world. And, it is about time for Japan to wipe its own ass. Buy American fighter planes, tanks and missles. Use them on NK and China. Don’t ask the US to save your sorry ass after insulting your neighbors by visiting the war memorial.
sonagi,
1) if both sides are to be blame. you better blame the jews (and non-jews, the french and belgians/etc) who complained about reagan’s visit.
2) a good analogy for bitburg would be: yasukuni removed all the class A/B/C war criminals. but keep 2 class B/C. and then dismantle the yusukan museum.
alternative, for bitburg to include hitler, gohring and himmler. and reagan to visit every year.
3) ok…Hu to visit a shinto shrine with 2 class C is also good. but provided that Japan did what German honorably introspected about its crime in WWII. then US WWII veteran complain about Hu vehemently.
4) war tribunal analogy would hold if US started the war and killed (and raped) civilians indiscrimantly, in large number, purposely. did the US soldier do such thing in WWII?
p.s. you are probably right that the whitewash should be focused more than the shrine visit. but then there is the very fact that koizumi did that to appease the right wing, and that sends a symbolic signal to those who read the textbook, has went to yusukan as well.
the more measure response for china and korea would be to say this unambiguous. “if would have been none of our business if you are just remembering the soldiers who fought under order, i.e. 2M - 14 souls there….” but i believe China already said that, many times.
Reagan visited the cemetery once and that was the end of it. The shrine visit controversy comes up every year. Perhaps “blame” is not a proper word choice. Rather, I would say that China and Korea’s very public criticism has not stopped the visits, so why not try another approach by ignoring the next visit and see what happens.
As far as I know, war crimes statutes focus on actions during wartime and do not distinguish “who started it;” that is to say that even if country A attacks country B, country is not justified in using biological or chemical warfare. General Lemay justified the Tokyo bombings by saying that in wartime, there were no civilians. Japan did start the war through its aggressions against its Asian neighbors and its attack on Pearl Harbor, and I would not equate US and Japanese wartime actions. Anecdotes like Bevers’ aside, the Allied POW survival rate was much lower in Japanese camps than German camps.
sonagi,
i think you have made some good points here i would ‘approximately’ agree. but only ‘approximately’ because:
1) the issues have been revitalized a few times every year by the Japanese politicians so that the original complain was largely forgotten. It is not about some symbolic visit or discourse. China complained because
a) similar to the textbook, it could affect how japan’s people and government think in the future. imagine a kid would say “our prime minister goes there, how could these people be bad? how could the museum be wrong?”
b) you probably know that the right wing (and even the moderate) in japan today still refuse to recognize the legitimacy of Far East Tribunal Court. They said this was imposed on them and determined by Jungle Law. Again, let’s be forward looking. The implication is that future action/thinking of people who buy in (or be convinced by) this school of thought would surely commit the same crimes again, provided they are sure they would be the victor.
re: tokyo firebomb. yes, it could be tried as a crime. however, the fact that firebombing was not tried does not mean that the Far East Tribunal was illegitimate or unfair, does it?
that is precisely what the ring wing in japan (and those who quoted Lemay, out of context) wants you to believe.
Baduk,
Once again, you’re wrong. Using purchasing power parity is a generally more accepted measure of wealth (or at least strength of economy) than using nominal GDP is. By many measures, China is ‘richer’ than Japan:
By the amount of public debt: (Japan’s is 158% of GDP, China is 24%)
By the amount it exports: (China: $752 billion, Japan: $550 billion)
Imports: (China $631 billion, Japan: $451 billion)
By the amount of its external debt: (Japan: $1.5 trillion, China: $252 billion)
Production of electricity
Production of oil
Oil reserves
Agricultural output
I suppose you could use foreign reserves to back up your point, where Japan is nominally ‘richer’, with $10 billion more than China (out of over $800 billion in reserves). You could also argue that Japan’s per capita GDP makes it richer than China, but since Japan is pretty far down either list (nominal or PPP), you’d be disproving your idea that somehow Japan is #2.
Please don’t use the word ‘facts’ in your posts anymore, since you obviously live in a world of fantasy, and have no conception of the concept of ‘fact’.
Hirohito quit visiting the shrine after the 14 war criminals were enshrined there in 1978, and his son Akihito has so far refused to go. I wonder if the late Emperor, who reigned during Japan’s aggression, had and his son has genuine remorse unlike politicians like Koizumi, who were children or not yet born during the wartime period.
While googling this issue, I was surprised to learn that there have been only two previous post-1978 visits by prime ministers Nakasone and Hashimoto. Rather than being a long-standing tradition, it does seem that Koizumi’s heavily publicized annual visits, breaking tradition with his predecessors, are part of an effort to erase Japan’s WWII guilt.
http://www.zmag.org/japanwatch/0009-yasukuni.html
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2.....-a17.shtml
Korea won’t ignore the visits though I think that’s exactly what they should do. They won’t ignore the visits because part of their national identity is the hapless victim of Asia. I’m honestly not trying to be racist here. After living in Korea for three years that is the impression I got from every Korean I spoke to about history. I know I didn’t speak to every korean and perhaps many Koreans don’t share this feeling, perhaps many of you have met Koreans that don’t feel this way. If you read any kids history text book in Korea is a story of how great Korea is but could have been even greater if not for all the unfair jive other countries went on with. This feeling of being a victim also makes Koreans feel better about how well their country is doing now and the Han miracle (even though all the money came from other countries). So they can’t ignore the shirne visits and keep quiet because bitching about how unfairly they’ve always been treated is part of the Korean identity.
Before ppl go nuts at me that is honestly the vibe I have picked up from Koreans in Korea while living in Korea.
Travolta, you’re talking about the 恨.
Sonagi,
I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that the Showa Emperor refused to visit Yasukuni after the enshrinement of the 14 war criminals, although it is a possibility.
The memo which has recently been released by the Nikkei may not be the words of the late emperor, but of Chamberlain Yoshihiro Tokugawa. The memo apparently was taken during a press session on April 28, 1988, but there are no records of such a session invovling the emperor on that day, and not only that, it seems Mr. Tomita (the author of the memo) did not even see the emperor on that day. Mr. Tokugawa, on the other hand, had retired as chamberlain on April 12, and was reinstated as an advisor on April 26, and the first day at his new office was April 28. The contents of the memo are also consistent with what Mr. Tokugawa has stated in his books and other interviews.
What is more, the Showa Emperor would never use the term “A-Class war criminals,” since he has always maintained that he alone was responsible for the war as the head of a constitutional monarchy. The emperor has said that, “although they may be war criminals to the Allies, they are nothing of the sort for Japan and are to me,loyal subjects.” Tojo was one of his most trusted subjects, and after the execution, the Tojo family has received personal tributes from the emperor every year. Royal envoys are still sent to Yasukuni, and other members of the royal clan have visited the Yasukuni even after 1978, which would be an act of defiance to the emperor and would never be dared by the royals or the Imperial Household Agency had the emperor been against the visit.
The reason why most of the prime ministers have not visited the Yasukuni after 1978 is because it became a political issue with China. Nakasone and Hashimoto were intimidated into never paying a visit, and the rest of the prime ministers were far too fearful of defying China. IMHO, it was probably the reason why the Showa Emperor stopped his visits, since under the present constitution, an emperor is forbidden from taking a political stand or expressing political views. This is also why his son, the present emperor, cannot go to Yasukuni, either, or even say whether he wishes to go or not.
Although a professor at Seoul National University (the infamous Prof. Lee Tae-jin) seems to think that “the royal family would never have prayed at the shrine voluntarily,” it seems that the former Prince Lee Gun visited Yasukuni on Nov. 11, 1996, long after the Japanese government could force such an act on anybody.
the emperors do not have to answer to ‘democracy’ — in koizumi’s case, the votes from right wing, even thought still a minority, but significant enough to sway the election results.
so in a way koizumi was being ‘pragmatic’/'realist’. the flip side is that the influence of the right indeed became stronger over the last few decades. that is worrisome.
however, i think sonagi is right that the protest from china/korea may not help with this situation.
only when US and other NATO countries could make real impact on this issue, unfortunately US govt’t, is too myopic.
Sunbin-
Well 2 of us looked at it, but only 1 read it.
There’s nothing there about a “worldwide controversy”.
And is there anything at all connected with Pawikirogi’s point?
And by the way, please remember, Sunbin, that Bitburg is a cemetery, not a shrine like Yasukuni. What goes on there is different. There are limits to analogies.
For example, Himmler, Goring and Hitler can’t just be “included”, like you said, though perhaps at Yasukuni it’s possible to “include”, or “exclude”, folks.
And Hitler could never be “included”, as you proposed, as his remains were burned.
that is what i said, bitburg is not a good analogy. there are a lot of difference.
nor is the arlington cemetery, which the right wings in japan have been using to desperately defend their position.
Why is it so bad that Japan has a right wing? I don’t support the right wing myself but aren’t they entitled to their opinions? America has a loony right wing. Democratic countries all over the world have a right wing. Why are people so afraid of the Japanese right wing? Korea has a right wing. Why aren’t people going nuts when they seem to gain power (which they seem to be). Does everyone think that a right wing government in Japan will instantly start invading Asia again? Shouldn’t people be more afriad of Kim Jong Il than a right wing Japan? Im not an expert on this issue as Im sure youve all gathered. Someone enlighten me as to why a Japanese right wing means the destruction of the universe as everyone seems to think it will be.
You are well-informed on the background of this issue, Two Cents, but since Yasukuni is a private, religious shrine, couldn’t the emperor visit? I’m not sure of the emperor’s modern role in the Shinto faith, but I’m guessing it’s something like the English monarch’s role in the Church of England.
Re: Bitburg analogy
Sunbin, it was not an analogy. It was a counter to Nulji’s claim that the US government does not care about the victims of Japan’s aggression because they were not white nor Jewish. I used the example of Bitburg because a US president paid respects at a cemetery where SS officers, some of whom organized the roundup, deportation, and murder of Jews and other Caucasians. In any case, Nulji has not offered any substance to back his predictable racemongering.
http://www.iht.com/articles/20.....dchell.php
I think he presented a good perspective on the issue.
to travolta,
“ring wing” in japan is not the usual right wing in US (conservative, republican). we are talking about ‘extreme right’, i.e. nazi/3K.
of course, every country has its share of extremist. but not with the endorsement of its prime minister or mainstream political parties.
Sky,
You’re right. Yasukuni is just a play. The real hatred between China and Japan run much deeper. Korea doesn’t know what it is doing so I will not waste much time on Korea’s feeling toward Japan.
China has been the lord in this neck of the wood for long, long time. Japan was a savage till American fleet stopped by. A savage which leached off Chinese culture.
Only in 19th and 20th century, the role has been reversed. Japan behaved as if it is the top dog around here. Well, thing may change back in this century.
And, China will make it so. By military means. The player, NK. China has been grooming NK to be a regional hit man. And, since Rho is willing to give SK freely to China, NK can bypass SK. NK will now concentrate in attacking Japan.
So, go and have a ball in Yasu. Do dancing, drinking, shouting and homo orgy(samurai’s favorite pastime) if you like.
The future is plain. Japan needs to mobilize as the rightwingers have been saying. NK will soon hit you quick and hard.
And, when you hit back, China will enter into a war with Japan. So, bring out your nuke weapons and fight hard. China would not back down till it proves that it is THE TOP DOG in asia.
Baduk, just write your Hollywood script and be done with it.
Here is my prediction - if it ever comes to war, the North Korean army will fold so fast it will make Saddam’s Iraqi army look positively heroic.
Cheers for the reply sunbin,
Ok the Japanese right are pretty extreme. Does that mean they will start world war III if they get into power then? Will the people of Japan put up with them? I thought most Japanese were pretty left wing and peace loving? I can see why people aren’t happy about the right getting more power but I just can’t see Japan starting up a new empire. Korea and China have been giving them shit while Korea goes off to kill people in Vietnam and they have a madman running the joint up North. China almost self destructed in waves of violence and rage during the cultural revolution and when the people didnt like the government any more they got ran over by tanks. Which country is more dangerous here? What crazy shit has Japan done in the last 60 years that warrants all this hatred and mistrust? Makes me sort of maybe think its more about racism than any real political gripes…
for now china wants peace and stability. it wants economic growth. it needs economic growth. as time goes by, china will only get richer and richer and richer. with all the excess money, china will put much of it to good use. military harware. modern military hardware that will surpass and rival the might of u.s. china will not engage unless it is absolutely certain in its capabilities in complete victory over u.s and japan alliance. nor should it. and that will take at least another half a century. n.k is the wildcard, and there is no certainty as to their effect in the future. and what has happened in the past six decades doesn’t and can not and will not be discounted from the greater dynamic that has unfolded since the beginning of time in n.e asia.. earth within earth. center of the universe.
discounted should be replaced with negate..
editor..! help !
Nationalism, not racism. After all, they’re all basically one race, what with all the intermixing that’s gone on throughout the years.
Ghola,
How strong is the US-Japan alliance? Would the American public risk a war with China?
I don’t think so. The US is pulling out of Korea in light speed. I believe it is also slowly reducing service men in Japan even though the fact did not hit newspapers yet.
When the China-Japan war starts(about 3-5 years from now), the US troops will not be involved. It will totally be a regional war. The US, with its large investment in China, would not get involved.
although i, more than any other individual on the face of this earth, would love to witness first hand, the complete and utter destruction of japan, by any means possible, including a war with china, have to conclude the possible scenario which you mentioned, baduk, “highly remote”.
i also believe that japans days are numbered. whether it be in the hands of the chinese or korean. or the supernatural…
u.s public might not want a war against the chinese, but the u.s gov’t is a whole different beast altogether..investments in china? like there’s no investments in japan ? japan is their israel of asia.. without japan, the u.s risks having its 7th fleet along with its 8th 9th and 10th and 11th pushed backed to guam and hawaii and lose its sphere of influence.
and china, even if it wins against japan.. after the war, it would be in a weakened state.. with india and russia at its borders, i think china would and have to be in a super-dominant position in order for them to engage anyone in war..and taiwan.. what of taiwan ?
what china needs now is time.. time to save and gather their stregnths. if they venture on prematurely, it’ll be back to square one for them.. china has the most conservative people in their gov’t.. they are slow to act. agonizingly slow in their actions. as much as they happen to hate japan and can’t await for the day when japan disappears, now is not yet the time, nor 3 to five yrs from now.. patience baduk.. patience is a vurtue.. hasn’t anyone of your ex girlfriends taught you that ? japan will disappear sooner or later. !
To wish for the destruction of a country attests loudly to your character, Ghola, and provides a clear contex