This Korean blogger had a lot to say about English teachers and Korean girls and, apparently, a lot of time to say it.*
If you read Korean, you might find it, ahem, interesting. Stuff like this:
같은 백인여자와 섹하기는 힘들기에 포르노물에 탐닉하여 자위행위로 성욕을 달래고 거의 매일마다 술과 마약에 의존하는 주로 이런 부류들이 불행히도 우리나라에 ‘영어강사’라는 이름으로 들어오고 있는 것입니다.
Rough translation: Unfortunately, it’s usually the types who jerk off to porn because they can’t have sex with white women and depend everyday on alcohol and drugs who are coming to Korea as “English teachers.”
Some interesting observations about Itaewon as well. Unfortunately, not all of them are necessarily untrue.
(No, I won’t be translating any of it, although I’m sure commenters will translate some of its more salient points below)
* Actually, the post was copied from another discussion board.
{ 167 comments… read them below or add one }
“Geez,” I was thinking to myself, “The Marmot’s Hole has been a bit quiet lately.” Nothing like the promise of a > 150-comment thread (no holds barred, no punches pulled) to get things back on track….
Now, if I were really ambitious, I would have translated the damn thing. Actually, some of it was quite funny and, concerning Itaewon, possibly spot on. Of course, some of the other stuff might spark disagreement.
Posted 39 minutes ago and no comments apart from mine!? Oh right, it’s what, just after 3 a.m. now on a Thursday morning over there in Korea.
No, I don’t have anything substantive to say about the original post. When there’s the smell of flamebait in the air, I prefer to stand on the sidelines and watch in awe and horror at the unfolding spectacle!
Ding! Oh, there’s my popcorn! Back in a minute…
Let the party begin.
And no, I’ve not had a chance to read it yet. It loads so slow!
Any chance this blog will get linked up here Marmot?
What’s happened to Kushibo, our favorite log-cabin Republican member of Democrats Abroad?
Korea: the place where even the most clean-cut, conservative White guy suddenly feels like a “nigger”.
Bob, the reason I’m commenting at this hour is because I’m jetlagged. What’s your excuse?
Eagerly awaiting reader translations…
Curzon: “Tropical nights” without air conditioning. Can’t sleep. And it sucks. I really, really need to invest in an air conditioner.
Isn’t EVERYONE who’s non-Korean a “ni****” over there in urinaraland?
Did that guy not go to college or something?
“The only people against drugs are people who have never done them and people who are bad at doing them.”
In South Korea, they’re called way-gooks. Same idea, tho.
I guess this is what happens when netizens discover websites loaded with pics of crazy expats acting like college kids on spring break with a bunch of local women who occupy a blurry moral zone between party animal and prostitute, huh?
I don’t read much Korean.I don’t have an informed view on this exact thread.I just want to know why Korean men blame the foreigners when THEIR women CHOOSE to do the deed with us.
When expats do it, it’s ‘bad.’
When Korean business men do it, it’called, ‘Korean culture.’
I always found Korean boys complaining about ESL teachers and their Korean girlfriends spent 99% of their free time in front of a computer so could never find a girl of his own if she fell on his lap.
I quit reading after a few minutes of the usual ramblings about loser white male English teachers who come to Korea to earn money and have sex with Korean women and just quickly scanned the rest, which includes several references to English Spectrum. I will translate a brief bit of info the author provided at the beginning:
한때는 미국이민을 생각했다가 흑인보다 더한 동양인에 대한 (일본인한테는 그나마 덜함) 극심한 인종차별과 백인우월주의 때문에, (LA 폭동을 잘 상기하기 바람)
At one time, I had thought about immigrating to the US, but racial discrimination against Asians is even worse than against blacks (LA riots are a good example)
또 한때는 캐나다이민을 생각했지만 이나라는 관광으로 가기에는 좋은나라이나 직업을 가지고 살기에는 정말 힘든 나라임을 깨닫고 이제 이민은 포기한 한국인 입니다.
I had also thought about immigrating to Canada, but while Canada is a good place to visit as a tourist, I realized that finding a job and making a living is really hard and have given up on immigrating.
호주는 미국만큼이나 심한 인종차별과 한국보다 훨씬 낫다 할수없는 경제력 때문에 아예 생각조차 않았구요.
Australia is as racist as the US and its economy is much weaker than Korea’s, so I did not even consider it.
Sonagi wrote:
“한때는 미국이민을 생각했다가 흑인보다 더한 동양인에 대한 (일본인한테는 그나마 덜함) 극심한 인종차별과 백인우월주의 때문에, (LA 폭동을 잘 상기하기 바람)
At one time, I had thought about immigrating to the US, but racial discrimination against Asians is even worse than against blacks (LA riots are a good example)…”
You forgot to translate the first parenthesis about how the Japanese are exempted from, or at any rate face a lesser version of, the Asian-directed racism in the U.S.
Typical Korean ranting connected to the U.S. and Japan Axis of Evil.
That blogger sounds like a real piece of work — is it Pawigirogi, by chance?
Yep… And here in America, we make eveyone wear a flag patch on their clothing, just so we can tell who we should be discriminating against, and who not to.
And I wouldn’t call this ‘Typical Korean ranting’ at all. This guy’s special.
When expats do it, it’s ‘bad.’
When Korean business men do it, it’called, ‘Korean culture.’
Mr Korean Iago doesnt like it when Korean business men do it either. But business men throw around lots of money so he can at least comprehend why the chicks might flock to them. The business man enjoys class privilege over Mr Iago.
Now, what kind of privilege does the typical expat enjoy over Mr Iago? This is the central question, isnt it?
Spot on Kimchipig! The post says more about angry Korean men sitting in smokey PC Bangs jerking off to Starcraft, Kart Rider et al than the odd waygookin every now and then letting loose and having a good time, spending some of his (and frankly *her*) hard earned Won.
I didn’t read the whole thing because the ranting’s so long and tedious. But it seems that his main complaint is that “white anglo men” are only in Korea for money and sex, and that they get treated like gods and kings, while the local people get screwed and discriminated by their own countrymen (Korean establishments who bar Korean men from entering places that are exclusively reserved for white men and Korean women). etc etc etc.
Say, did this article happen to mention the names of any of these places “exclusively reserved” for white men and Korean women?
I can take the resentment of Korean men as it is nothing more than incoherent expressions of their collective inferiority and victimization complexes, but a more disturbing undercurrent common to Korean bloggers and commentators of this sort is their naked hatred and denigration of women.
I tried reading the article from the top, but honestly, I had to give up after about 4 lines. Between the author’s liberal use of slang words I’d never even encountered before and a pretty loose writing style, I’ve pretty much gone completely beyond the limitations of my reading comprehension skills. Even the slang dictionary here wasn’t much help. If 씨받이 has some slang meaning, I have no idea what it is; and I have no idea what 국싼녀 is (I can guess), although that word gets about 100,000 hits in Google.
Here’s my pathetic attempt at translating the first three lines:
영어강사 씨받이 하는 한국여성들..
English teachers [and] Korean women [who are their] surrogate mothers (!?)…
에고 이런 국싼녀들과 함께 얼굴맞대고 살아야하다니
Ego (?) has to live facing (?) these kinds of 국싼 women
3~4년전 굿데이 뉴스에 50대 영국영어강사가 국싼녀 2천명인가 따먹은건지 따먹힌건지
3 or 4 years ago, [according to] Good Day News, 50 English teachers from England [did the hanky-panky with or had the hanky-panky done to them by (?)] 2000 국싼 women
‘dude, tell me your secrets and show me your hunting grounds, who-hoo!!!” When it’s the white guy in Korea, Korean guys are like, “they’re stealing our women.”
I’m paraphrasing something I read on another blog (don’t remember) or perhaps as a comment. At any rate, the first case is relatively rare while the second is the norm.
The reasons many Korean women might prefer Westerners over Korean men is no mystery, there are several that may or may not fit all women;
1) More confidence
2) None of the typical/dreaded family obligations to worry about
3) Kinder/gentler (have heard this a lot)
4) Ticket out of Korea (much less than before)
Or maybe forever portraying yourself as the poor, oppressed victim is a huge turn off for women of all races, BJ?
By the way, Babelfish translations are crappy at best, but you can usually get the gist of a sentence or paragraph. When I ran this article through Babelfish, the translation a surrealist, stream-of-consciousness masterpiece that was right off the map.
As a teaser, the same three lines from Babelfish:
This isn’t true?
Seriously though, I can see why the jealousy. We’re all exempt from the Confucian bullshite that he’s gotta suck up every day. It sucks ass to be a Korean, because the first person to fuck over a Korean will always be another Korean. And despite the burning resentment towrds we all have towards the locals for whatever entirely personal reason we have, only the biggest liar here would claim that sucks just as much to be a foreigner.
And really now: Back home we’ve always had a proud history of blaming migrant workers, immigrants, and other assorted foreigners for all of our problems back home, why should Koreans be any better than us?
All of the text didn’t come thru on the first comment – exact same copy/paste…???
‘dude, tell me your secrets and show me your hunting grounds, who-hoo!!!” When it’s the white guy in Korea, Korean guys are like, “they’re stealing our women.”
I’m paraphrasing something I read on another blog (don’t remember) or perhaps as a comment. At any rate, the first case is relatively rare while the second is the norm.
The reasons many Korean women might prefer Westerners over Korean men is no mystery, there are several that may or may not fit all women;
1) More confidence
2) None of the typical/dreaded family obligations to worry about
3) Kinder/gentler (have heard this a lot)
4) Ticket out of Korea (much less than before)
Or maybe forever portraying yourself as the poor, oppressed victim is a huge turn off for women of all races, BJ?
for some reason, this text not posted, twice (just below block quote):
That’s way off base – remember the video awhile back of the Korean (or at least Asian) couple humping on top of a mini-van with a crowd cheering them on? That was no business man. Again, when a Korean guy does it, no problem, but it is a problem if it’s a foreigner. Don’t try to rationalize that fact away, it just won’t work.
If a Korean came to the U.S. and was scoring with a bunch of white/black/Latina/whatever chicks, his white friends would be like,
I wonder if this guy (김록영) has read the ‘good blog’ put up by that fellow who works at the Herald Media’s
language gulagEnglish Camp?” I tried reading the article from the top, but honestly, I had to give up after about 4 lines. Between the author’s liberal use of slang words I’d never even encountered before and a pretty loose writing style, I’ve pretty much gone completely beyond the limitations of my reading comprehension skills. Even the slang dictionary here wasn’t much help. If 씨받이 has some slang meaning, I have no idea what it is; and I have no idea what 국싼녀 is (I can guess), although that word gets about 100,000 hits in Google.
Here’s my pathetic attempt at translating the first three lines:
영어강사 씨받이 하는 한국여성들..
English teachers [and] Korean women [who are their] surrogate mothers (!?)…
/Korean women receiving the seeds of foreign English teachers.
에고 이런 국싼녀들과 함께 얼굴맞대고 살아야하다니
Ego (?) has to live facing (?) these kinds of 국싼 women
/ Damn, these cheap, domestic (Korean) women live among us.
3~4년전 굿데이 뉴스에 50대 영국영어강사가 국싼녀 2천명인가 따먹은건지 따먹힌건지
3 or 4 years ago, [according to] Good Day News, 50 English teachers from England [did the hanky-panky with or had the hanky-panky done to them by (?)] 2000 국싼 women ”
/ you got this one.
/ Sewing, I was debating whether or not I should translate, but I guess I chose to do it. In no way does my translation reflect my opinion. I include the translation next to yours.
/ 국싼 women (a pun and a play on words. But basically, cheap domestic Korean women.)
> Isn’t EVERYONE who’s non-Korean a “ni****” over there in urinaraland?
And Koreans have a victimization complex? A lot of people around these parts are coming pretty close to the whole pot and kettle thing.
More accurate would be – “Made In Korea Sluts”.
“/ 국싼 women (a pun and a play on words. But basically, cheap domestic Korean women.)” – wjk
More accurate would be – “Made In Korea Sluts”.
씨받이, in this case seems to reference simply to be a Korean woman substituting to receive the genetic material of foreign men. Korean women who should be having sex with Korean men, but instead sleeping with foreign men.
I don’t know why I even bothered to ponder into the inside reference.
substituting for the foreign woman, if that makes any sense.
“씨받이, in this case seems to reference simply to be a Korean woman substituting to receive the genetic material of foreign men. ”
Better description yet,
“cum recepticles”.
Wjk, thanks for the help!
Ah, 씨받이 = 씨를 받음.
And 국싼녀 = 國産女, with 싼 ← 싸다.
That clears things up! And no, my lousy translation didn’t reflect my opinion on this either…I just thought this would be a good test (too good, it turns out) of my language skills. It sure ain’t your standard 표준어!
…I think I’ll stick to stuff that can be read in polite company….
“Say, did this article happen to mention the names of any of these places “exclusively reserved” for white men and Korean women?”
I don’t think it did. I think he was recalling his own experience.
But it would not surprise me if it’s true. It’s been a long time since I’ve stepped in one, but as I recall, there were lot of clubs in Korea that regularly discriminated based on race, nationality, sex, and even age.
So can someone explain what really motivates so many (predominantly young, male, single) Westerners with unrelated B.A.’s and M.A.’s to come and teach English here? The enormous paychecks? The fair treatment from their employers? The high social status of English teachers? Interest in Korean language and culture? A sense of mission? The great scenery? Hard-working students?
I’m just curious.
에고 is 아이구, I think.
I agree with William G
국싼녀 is slang meaning “made-in-korea woman” according to my co-worker. seems only she knew it; none of the other korean girls here did. not a gentle term, btw.
oh, and i loved the easy registration form here. nice that i didn’t have to supply a ‘national id’. wouldn’t it be fun if we could all comment on the sites of k-guys that love to slam us ‘innocents’?
Montclaire:
In all seriousness, I suspect a lot of young people see the prospect of teaching English in Korea, Japan, or elsewhere as simply the opportunity to work for a year in an exotic (or so it seems to them) country, while figuring out what to do with their lives. Other young kids from Europe and North America who don’t know what to do next choose to go backpacking to Thailand, for example.
I doubt that most go there with some kind of predetermined urge to indulge themselves in carnal acts or lord it over the locals. Given how little people with no interest in or connection to the place seem to know about Korea, I doubt they go there with much in the way of preconceptions at all. I’m not denying, however, that no doubt a few people do go there with some kind of “action plan” worked out.
That’s just my two cents; I haven’t gone through the experience firsthand, and have never worked abroad as an English teacher; but that’s my observation based on a couple of people I’ve met.
I wrote,
“indulge themselves in carnal acts or lord it over the locals.”
I should have made it clear that I was paraphrasing how certain people might see it…not necessarily what actually happens.
“based on a couple of people I’ve met”: how’s that for extrapolation!?
But seriously, it would seem that most of the English teachers whose blogs I read from time to time probably fit this description…they’re not the “predatory cretins” (or whatever…again an “anticipatory paraphrase,” as it were) some people make all English teachers out to be.
With their degrees in unrelated fields, are they qualified to teach English? Well, that’s a completely different question.
The guy didn’t just bash white dudes, BTW. Everyone (except Korean males) come in for derision, including Nigerian gangsters gangbanging Korean chicks in Haebangchon and spreading AIDS and drugs (although they are apparently even more notorious for fraternizing with Russian chicks), “Itaewon girls” partying with Western guys, Korean female reporters protecting foreigners in their reports, Pakistanis (always in groups) staring at Korean girls in bikinis at the swimming pool, and much, much more!
If you take the time to read it in full, it’s actually quite amusing.
It’s an epic. It’s probably longer than some traditional sagas.
I certainly learned a lot.
How did you find this by the way, Robert? It seems to be a completely obscure blog, seeing as that post doesn’t even have any comments.
Well, since you ask, I was doing my regular portal searches for foreign English teacher news (gotta keep the Stupid Foreigner Tricks section up to date, after all), and I just so happened to come across it.
“If you take the time to read it in full, it’s actually quite amusing.”
The best laugh of all is the advice that he gives to a morally upright but potential Made in Korea slut; be very wary of the ‘anglo white’ guy who offers to teach English to you, in return for Korean language lessons. They’re only after one thing – your pu*ssy.
I must admit he’s not entirely wrong there, cause based on personal experience, I know it’s a good damn excuse to play dumb, and get a date and maybe later something a lot more..if you know what I mean.
nice of you to throw nulji a bone every once in a while…
Sounds like a gay English teacher made that kind of play on you.
Your English is fantastic, by the way.
Hey, and let it not be said he fails to appreciate the efforts of former USFK commander Leon LaPorte, even if they have left Itaewon in the hands of cheap-ass, one-beer-nursing, anju avoiding Nigerians, Pakistanis and English teachers and “forced” local establishments to accept Korean male customers who, like, actually order things:
Stuff like this I found more interesting that the bitching about “Korean girls acting like Western cum catchers.”
What a laugh. I’ve seen enough cliques and ethnic politics in Seoul that is directed against anyone — foreign or Korean — who is not in their little circle of bums. This guy is a less than honest loser and I think most Koreans would see him as such too.
I just think we shouldn’t let that blogger’s xenophobia blind us to the kernel of truth in what he says. I’ve met too many English teachers to believe that the horndogs are an insignificantly small minority among them. They are definitely the minority, but still numerous enough to make the Koreans’ negative generalizations inevitable.
The Judge wrote:
“nice of you to throw nulji a bone every once in a while…”
Where the heck is Nulji/Pawikirogi these days, anyhow? His comments were always good for mixing things up. He singlehandedly made “expat” a swear word, for heaven’s sakes!
It certainly doesn’t help matters when you have a significant number of foreigners who do act like the country is one big frat party.
Funny. When Marmot showed me this blog, before posting, my first reaction was about the foreigners-only bars. In 1990, my first experience with Itaewon was quite the opposite: Korean friends took me there to the places THEY patronized, and because of me being white, it took quite a while for them to convince the staff to let me in. And sure enough, within 30 minutes we had troubles from drunken men.
Paul Theroux once wrote a perceptive (and self-critical) piece about the “minor celebrity status” that induces Westerners to want to live in Africa. At home you’re just another person standing in line at the supermarket. In Africa you’re the white man standing in line, etc. The same can be said for living in Korea, and the less attention the foreigner got back home, the more likely he is to go the frat-party route when he gets here.
Montclaire:
I read an article years ago (in print, in pre-World Wide Web days) that was critical of exotic travel writers (Theroux included) precisely because of that apparent indulgence on their part in the special treatment they received when they went to places that were still unspoiled by tourist traffic. The same article also argued, as I recall, for something like what Wikipedia describes as the “observer effect” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect): that such writers—and travellers generally who try to go off the beaten track—may delude themselves into thinking that they are visiting “authentic” places not ruined by tourism, when in actual fact their mere presence and the reactions of the local people to them makes the place quite different (at least temporarily) from what it would be if they weren’t there.
The guy talked about foreign guys and “Itaewon girls” getting pissed off that Korean men are now being served at former “foreign men-Korean women” only bars and clubs in Itaewon. I’ve never seen anything like that, but then again, I don’t hang out in Itaewon a whole lot:
Also, is anyone familiar with the following incident:
To translate briefly, some Canadian female English teacher posted her photo on some English teacher forum along with some text mentioning how she’s like a Korean boyfriend. She ended up getting dozens of nasty and theatening comments including one commenter who wrote that if he saw her in Itaewon with a Korean guy he would pour lighter fluid on her face and light her up.
I lived in Africa for a year. I liked it. It was nice.
Sorry. Back to our regularly scheduled discussion.
As far as I know, a lot of the white foreigners in Korea are right out of college, so I dont know how else Koreans can expect them to act.
Bars in Itaewon that have a significant mixture of Korean and foreign dudes, especially the juicy bars, don’t work. Korean dudes either simmer with resentment (like our boy in question) or get openly hostile to “their” chicks having fun with whitey. Places like Geckos and 3 Alley can and do allow more mixing since they are pretty much regular bars. Korean guys that go to those seem to be either gyopos or are otherwise more comfortable around foreigners.
There have always been clubs in the ‘won that keep foreigners at bay. But, let’s face it, who likes to pay beaucoups for a fruit plate at a place that has J79-like decibel levels anyway?
“Sounds like a gay English teacher made that kind of play on you.”
Who me gay? Nah..
Nothing wrong with being gay though. Unless you have a problem with it?
Wait a minute, I want to live in the Korea you guys live in
If“minor celebrity status”is akin to “monkey at the zoo,” I guess I’ve experienced it, although Koreans seem mainly indifferent to my Brad Pitt-like aura (or is that armpit?). Since I’m not an ESL dude, I can’t relate.
This thread is entertaining, though.
Being an English teacher in your 20s is like an extension of college. And what’s wrong with that?
Nahsville used to have a very prominent sign in the 90s forbidding entries to the locals. Now they take quite a bit of cash from them…
“Nahsville used to have a very prominent sign in the 90s forbidding entries to the locals.”
Quoi?
. . “white anglo men” are only in Korea for money and sex, and that they get treated like gods and kings, while the local people get screwed and discriminated by their own countrymen . . .”
Perhaps only in Itaewon. For the most part, Korean guys are Kings here with many delightful choices that are mostly off limits to foreigners such as room salons, glass house districts, coffee girls on scooters, rub and tugs, anmas, Gui bars, etc. Christ, every corner in this country has a way for the local man to have a good time and foreigners 9 times out of 10 aren’t allowed.
One has to wonder with so many options at his disposal, why would he even want to visit a foreigner-friendly bar in Itaewon? I’ve seen the type before though. Usually they come late at night, already piss drunk and try to start up problems with either the customers or staff. It was only a matter of time before one of these morons started blogging. Best to treat their blogs the same way you would if you encountered them in a bar….ignore them.
Arent we about due for an introspective Shelton Bumgarner special by now? We know this sort of thing is close to his heart.
As a side note on Africa; if you’re in a French-speaking country, you’ll hear ‘bonjour’ more there than you ever will in France, and it seemed they meant it most of the time.
That is not, ahem, necessarily true. The “off-limits to foreigners” part, that is.
Because Itaewon has its own unique vibe. But in terms of blowing your load, you’re right, there’s precisious little reason why you’d even want to go to Itaewon.
At 76 comments (77 now) over 10 hours, this thread should cross the 150-comment mark in about another 10 hours, at 10 PM KST.
I think we’re on track….
Sorry, it was posted 9 hrs 30 mins ago, so 9:30 p.m. KST!
But I guess gratuitous comments from me like this one will mess up the “authenticity” of the outcome….
“That is not, ahem, necessarily true. The “off-limits to foreigners” part, that is.”
Sadly it is usually the case down here in the Boondocks of Daegu. Even when I’m with some Korean friends it’s very difficult to find a place specializing in “stress relief” that will admit this white boy. Some Anma’s here will admit foreigners for an extra 40,000 won surcharge….so I’ve heard.
And I thought that my post on Roh’s NK policy was doing pretty good.
It all boils down to penis envy.
I know that some places refuse their “stress relief” services to foreigners (usually citing AIDS concerns or, more to the point, scaring away local clientele), but from what I’ve heard ™, such places tend to be in the minority, even outside of Seoul. Especially if you’re a) Western or Japanese (Third World laborer types are a different matter), b) discrete and c) handle yourself with the proper decorum.
Of course, this is a subject matter best addressed in its own thread…
The Flying Yangban wrote,
“And I thought that my post on Roh’s NK policy was doing pretty good.”
No offense, Andy: you do good work. But I knew Robert had a prizewinner on his hands as soon as he posted it!
That is exactly what is always being told to us when I join my Korean friends for a guy’s night out. The mamasans first say they are worried foreigners have AIDS and secondly cite the fact that locals will not frequent establishments that allow foreigners. I don’t think they mind Japanese or Chinese customers though. Daegu is a bit behind the times. It might be different if I were more fluent in Hangul Mal. Thank goodness for the KTX.
It’s kind of ironic that the subject of this thread, being Korean, is just the opposite of the regular locals who prefer to avoid us barbarians.
Although all in all, the comments so far have been remarkably flame-free. I’m not sure if I should be pleasantly surprised or disappointed!
i can remember a bar my first roommate used to take me to back in ’99 that was very careful to only allow a certain percentage of white faces. the guy at the front door would actually radio down to the bar with “three foreigners, two korean girls, one korean guy.” if the numbers in the bar allowed for it, we were let in. if not, we had to wait until some of the people already there decided to leave.
being from safety-centered canada, i first thought there was some fire by-law they were trying to follow. but, by about the third time there, i could make out what the fellow at the door was saying.
once they let us in, the staff were always polite and generally happy to see us (and take our money).
as far as i know, the bar is no longer there. most likely, they were closed because of some fire by-law violation.
i can think of another place that has a “foreigners only” policy. the race track just outside of seoul has a special viewing lounge for foreigners. i went with another white dude and as soon as we entered the grounds a korean employee come over and gave us a photocopied map, showing us how to get to the special room. it’s a nice place to hang out and watch the races.
i went back once with the (korean) woman who is now my wife, but aside from the serving staff, she was the only korean woman there. the rest of the people were foreign guys and what looked like their korean buddies.
You talk of foreigners being denied opportunities to pay for female companionship. I think a lot of the blogger’s rage comes from the fact that foreigners don’t HAVE to pay for it as often as a Korean of comparably nondescript looks and comparable car-less, 2-3 mill won income does. In booking clubs foreigners can be singled out for violence, or simply denied admission, because they hook up the old-fashioned way (on the dance floor) instead of paying a waiter to drag women to the table.
But I see we reject talk of lecherous English teachers by referring to the majority of teachers who are here for other reasons. Then we talk of how Korean men “usually” turn up drunk and aggressive at foreigner clubs, etc. Seems to me that the Korean blogger’s generalizations are at least as justified as ours.
Yup. Korean damsels were allowed, if brought in by their male, foreign escort, but on their own, say they were late [let's just imagine here...
] they would have to argue with the equally Korean staff at the entrance that their dates were waiting inside.
Montclaire:
For the record, I for one am not trying to spin this one way or the other. I was just replying upthread to your question about why people go to Korea to teach English. I’ve spent time in Korea and have a connection to the place, but haven’t taught English there, and haven’t hung out in bars of any variety in any neighbourhood or city (which I guess makes me pretty boring). Other commenters have raised the other issues you mentioned, but I’m withholding judgment, because I haven’t been party to any of that scene at all (by choice).
dda:
Oh, it’s the name of a bar! (See, I really don’t know anything about that scene!) I thought you meant Nashville, Tennessee, hence my confusion….
Silly wabbit.
The blogger does have a point only so far that it pertains to Itaewon and the Camp Towns. He should realize in those areas that foreigners will get the majority of attention. Were I to visit Korea town in LA and go to a Kareoke bar or Korean Club, I would not get upset if the females paid most of their attention to the Korean lads. I would be aware of the environment I was in and who the business caters to. The blogger doesn’t seem to realize this and appears to go off on a rant against all English teachers and their “cum recepticle women”. This is a crude and racist stereotype based on a microcosm of Korean society that actually caters to foreigners in their establishments.
My own comment on drunk Koreans showing up in Itaewon and being aggressive against foreigners was not a stereotype of Koreans at all. The ones that do this are very few and far between and you could go barhopping a hundred times in Itaewon without ever encountering such an individual. But there are some out there and my theory is the blogger is one of them. My original point, which I did stray away from, is that if he dislikes Itaewon (which he mentions by name), us foreigners and our women so much, then why is he going to Itaewon bars in the first place? It seems to me this person goes out of his way to make conflict and uses his bitter experiences to justify his idiotic blog.
Let’s not forget that much of the young Korean men’s anger these days is directed at the women not so much for being foreigner-loving as for being so calculating in all their romantic relationships. This is the famous 된장녀 style woman that the men here are getting increasingly angry at. The perception is that they date a Korean man for money or they date a foreigner for free English (and many are in fact dating both, unbeknownst to either man).
i think i can understand the korean staff at nashville’s (in the basement, anyway) being willing to guard the place from other koreans. i’ve been there enough time to see that, generally, the foreign customers treat the staff with a lot more respect, and make a lot less noise and far fewer demands than the korean ones.
the last time i was there i sat near a group of american soldiers who started each and every sentence directed to their waitress with please and/or thank you. they kept to themselves and discussed the going-ons in israel in low voices (it was on cnn on the big tv behind them).
the last time i had the misfortune to be there when a group of korean businessmen showed up, i had the good sense to leave quickly. they make too much noise and generally bother everyone. even the last group of korean ajummas i ran into there made all kinds of noise about the air conditioner being in the wrong place and at the wrong setting. a small bug appeared on the wall and i have never heard such dramatic screaming, outside of horror movies.
Maekchu—Actually, the guy who wrote the post is from Itaewon. He’s writing about his own ‘hood.
Re: The foreigner getting serviced issue. At the risk of pissing off our host by going a bit O/T, one afternoon the other month your correspondent happened to be walking from the Yongsan Electronics Market toward Hangang-no to get a cab and noticed about 50% of the gals behind the glass in the, shall we say “reddish-hued zone,” were actually quite friendly.
Jd: re the small bug – I know it’s a different topic, but can someone explain to me the fear (among men too) of all insects here? Wasn’t this a rural country until recent memory?
Wedge,
i’ve heard that you can judge the korean economy based on how friendly the women behind the glass are. foreigners getting the cold shoulder = economy going good. girls being all smiles and sexy winks when a foreigner passes by = economy in the dumps.
i guess what i’m saying is that if you have stocks in korean companies, now is the time to sell.
JD–That’s an excellent indicator. It was definitely true in 1998. Like fast food service in the U.S.: sux when we’re at full employment, excellent in a recession. I’d short Korean shares if I could.
Montclaire,
i can try.
koreans do not like to show emotion (insert larger discussion of ‘face” here), but when they do show emotion, they sort of make up for all the times they couldn’t. this leads to very dramatic displays over small things, like bugs.
on the other hand, it could be that many koreans worry about the bugs carrying some kind of disease. i am sure that this fear is, like those connected to fan death, based on hard science.
(to be honest, the bug sort of freaked me out, too. the cook, however, walked right over and killed it with a rolled up paper.)
I dunno, maybe in the 50s and 60s when infrastructure was still lousy, there were sanitation issues that did contribute to disease-carrying bugs, and so in these days of underground sewers and indoor plumbing, people still instinctively react that way? (I’m purely speculating: I really don’t know one way or another.)
I wonder if it is part of the general obsession with hygiene that has paradoxically weakened the immune systems of the nation’s children. Anyway, sorry for disrupting the thread with a non sequitur! I also want to know why the men make that barking noise when they sneeze, but I’ll wait for another thread.
If only Kushibora were here, he would tell us we’re making much ado about what is undoubtedly only one disaffected crank among 48 million people.
Sorry to extend the OT trend here, but now that you mention it, my favourite Korean trait is a “Confucian” mannerism you often see in TV dramas: when and older gentleman disapproves of something that someone in the room is doing, he’ll (not so) discretely turn his head aside and loudly clear his throat.
By the way, older Koreans have, I suspect, pretty strong immune systems, precisely because of poorer sanitation in the years prior to the “Miracle on the Han.” (No, I’m not saying Koreans are “special” or “unique,” but let’s just say that my stomach had to go through some adjustments after my first extended trip to the country, when I was bothered after eating food that didn’t have the same effect on the people around me.)
Great job on trolling for comments, but now I can’t even remember what the heck the post was about.
Just to make Sewing happy, I’ll add another comment here. Koreans have had issues with bugs for centuries:
http://www.froginawell.net/korea/2006/01/bugs-beetles-and-worldviews/
Here’s my favorite part: “The dominant worldview in Koryŏ (certainly until the Mongol domination) was pluralist and allowed the existence of contradictions between its constituent parts without trying to remove these or synthesizing them into one vision of reality.”
Hmmm, some things never change….
Word
Did you move when you changed jobs too then? Or did you just stop going home?
Michael, thanks for that. I think I’ve commented here enough for one day, anyhow!
I never could understand why some waegooks get upset because some of the local pimps wont let them use their whores.
Nothing about housewives and halmonis knocking one out at lunchtime with good ol Hardy Longlegs?
So does this angry man mention any specific bars in Itaewon?
Or is he just attacking Itaewon, All English teachers (Probably all foreigners but why not keep up the anti-teacher sentiment eh!?) and of course any Korean women associating with said foreigners.
I am known to generalise but this guy appears to be a master!
Newsflash! Another Korean male goes on a rant over Western men dating Korean women and other misdeeds committed by humanity (not including Korean men, of course).
To me, the only pertinent question is – When do we stop giving a sh*t?
Considering that several times Korean guys offered to set me up on dates with “their” women (and they weren’t even pimpin’!) I’m LMFAO at this entire thread.
Michael – Good point. It’s important to remember that there are plenty of Korean guys like that.
Thirsty—Yes, he does mention specific bars. He notes for example how Lime Light, Geckos and Helios are the three main places frequented by foreign English teachers, and how all three are owned by Korean ajummah with foreign boyfriends. He mentions others as well. And while he concentrates most of his attention on foreign English teachers, he also slams Nigerians, Pakistanis, Korean cops in Itaewon, Itaewon bar owners, and, of course, Korean women.
Sometimes this is a ruse, though.
“I never could understand why some waegooks get upset because some of the local pimps wont let them use their whores.”
And I can’t understand how simply stating a fact can be misconstrued in such a manner where the non-comprehending reader assumes the author is emotionally upset about said fact. Could The_William_G really be Baduk?
“Sometimes this is a ruse, though.” Huh? Well, I fell for it a couple of times and no problems ensued….
This guy’s blog sounds like spewing from a misanthrope (not you Marmot, the Korean guy). Kinda entertaining, but not a mainstream view.
Sometimes questions like “I know many Korean girls, you want to meet them?” and “Do you like Korean girls?” are merely probing questions. The *wrong* answer means you are going to get cockblocked. I am not saying it is this way in all cases, but it is not uncommon for offers like that to be totally insincere.
LOL “cockblocked.” I think it depends on the maturity of the people involved. These guys wondered why I wasn’t married and offered to hook me up.
I rarely worry about any of this nonsense posted herein. If one tries to be genuine and smiles, most things work out, minus the few negative people who might plague the scene.
Good things happen everywhere and should not always be openly talked about either since it sometimes gives the negative chumps something to talk about out of spite and envy.
I can only wonder when, if not already, the NK infiltrator PR network will start slandering foreigners more since they are an alleged blight upon Korean society, but then most Koreans are not so dumb as to believe such slander.
i’ve never seen any place in Korea that didn’t allow Koreans
stuff like this always makes me sick to the stomach. sex, race and culture never mix well i’m afraid. Someone’s eventually going to get pissed off, no matter what.
also, it should be noted that Itaewon is a whole different little universe
I hang out in Sinchon and the vibe is totally different than Itaewon. Usually, if I go to one of the places on the main drag, I just feel all icky. Some of the side street bars are pretty nice, though.
“Koreans showing up in Itaewon and being aggressive against foreigners ”
Maekchu, you’ll be interested to know that the blog guy complains exactly the same thing about the white guys turning drunk, racist, and then violent.
1) That’s the amazing thing about text: It lacks the smirk that lets people know you’re not serious. The internet is the worst form of mass communication ever invented.
2) I actually have come across that complaint more than once here.
3) Joke or not, call me Baduk again and I’ll… well, nothing actually. Toss a few strong words your way I figure. Being linked to that tinfoil hat wearing fool. How revolting.
CM…I’ve seen more than my share of crazy white boys too though it’s not so bad with the military having a curfew these days. A few years ago, it was the crazy young miguks that were the biggest problem for everyone. But if I were him, I’d seek my entertainment outside of the foreigner friendly zone. I understand it’s where he lives but if I lived in K-Town, LA, I wouldn’t be complaining about the Korean guys getting all the attention in K-Town. I’d simply go somewhere else that catered to me. I think he might have more issues with foreigners besides them catching Itaewon girls. Thanks for the extra translations of his blog. My Konglish isn’t developed enough to comprehend it on my own.
William…yeah, sorry about the reference to Baduk. I owe ya a beer for that one. “Tinfoil hat wearing fool”. LOL.
Just a question, then a comment WITH a question at teh end:
Question- Why do we not often hear of similar rantings from Japanese men towards foreign English teachers in Japan? Are the foreigners in Japan abstaining or are Japanese men more confident?
Comment: I was once chatting with a Taiwanese stewardess (pc transaltion: cabin crew member) from a large Asian airline. We were discussing her dating habits. She had mentioned that she was pre-disposed to dating men from Southern Europe. I asked if she ever had any problems walking down the streat with her White boyfriends in Asia. She informed me that she only had a problem once. In Korea. She was walking down the street with her boyfriend from Spain. Suddenly a group of Korean men approached and began to beat up her boyfriend. She began screaming…in english… “I am not Korean”… yet the young boys continued the beating. Now, is this just a random unrealted bad-luck story, or is it tied in at all with this thread? I don’t want to judge based on 1 story. I want to hear other views. Thanks one and all!
Maekchu:
Don’t be put off if you couldn’t comprehend that article. I thought my Korean-language skills were half decent, but I could hardly make any sense of that “masterpiece” at all. The author knows more slang than a welldigger with a cold foot, and his writing style seems to be wholly idiosyncratic (to put it charitably). In my humble opinion, I’d say the folks who could read that post and make sense of it must excel in their knowledge of Korean; nevertheless, understanding that blog is one bar I’m not going to bother setting for myself.
Talk about hitting the nail on the head. There is just as much, if not more fraternizing between foreigners and Japanese women. However, unlike Koreans, Japanese men do not go apeshit crazy of foreigners stealing their women. They posess a characteristic which seems very foreign and incomprehensible to the Korean mind… something called “security and self confidence.”
Ironic thing is that Koreans love to point out this fact of smooth relations between the local Japanese girls and gaijin men as some sort of negative or degenerate aspect of Japanese culture. In other words, the message that Koreans portray is, “Look at how superior Korean culture is compared to Japanese culture. Japanese totally feel comfortable with letting their women date foreigners whereas we Koreans show our superiority by beating, crying, screaming at foreigners and flooding internet boards with racist messages when we see inter-racial relationships. You see, we Koreans are proud that we are racist and insecure!”
This guy, the author, is total loser and he doesn’t seem to know the term “Itaewon”. Everyone, except him, knows that the district of “Itaewon”developed and commercialized for foreigners with “foreigner only” bars, clubs and counterfeits good stores.
3) Joke or not, call me Baduk again and I’ll… well, nothing actually. Toss a few strong words your way I figure. Being linked to that tinfoil hat wearing fool. How revolting.
I laughed.
All I can say is this, even here in the US, supposedly this land of freedom, equality, “diversity”, and other lip-service abstractions, interracial relationships is not without its share of controversy. Political correctness has merely driven overt racism underground, not eradicated. So dont be so surprised when shit happens in Korea.
I advise all of you to develop a sense of noon-chi, be humble about it (not boastful, I know its hard, esp for an American, but try now), and know your place. As long as Koreans are not putting on white hoods, burning crosses, stringing up nooses in the woods, and passing anti-miscegenation laws, like much of your predecessors used to do, you have nothing to worry about. In fact, I think some of you get away with far too much shit already.
Maybe Nuli/Pawi also goes by the handle Bluejives? Same issues, same racialism-bound world view, same predictable lame arguments, same passive/aggressive superiority complex, same too-flaky-to-fisk North Korea ideas. Slightly better manners and writing skills.
Yes, let’s all be glad we don’t live in the world of 100 (heck, 50) years ago. Now, if only some people could stop living there by letting go and moving on rather than constantly bringing up the past misdeeds of others in lieu of making any actual point, we’d all be in a much happier world. Let’s not be throwing stones from our ancestors’ glass houses now, shall we?
I’ve been out of Korea for the past 2 months and, consequently, not frequenting Korea blogs. And I’d just like to relate how reading the Marmot’s Hole, and this thread in particular, has just made my day.
Over the past 2 months, I’ve kept company with people from every English speaking counrty on the planet, as well as Trinidadians, Vietnamese, Thais, Koreans, Indians, Spanish, Swedes, Germans, French, Arabs, Jews, Australians, and other peoples various and sundry, all mingling and socializing and dating, and not once, not even once have I had to hear someone talking about how that this person shouldn’t date that one because of where they’re from or what they look like. It’s really refreshing to be somewhere where race relations aren’t an every day issue.
There are racist people everywhere. But contrary to what a previous poster believes, laws against racial discrimination do more than just drive it underground. They begin to make hate socially unacceptable. Korean society is xenephobic and bigoted. More so than any society that has instituted laws that proscribe racism (provided that these laws are enforced). It is still very acceptable to teach hate to children in Korea. It is still acceptable for Koreans to speak publicaly of a “pure” race.
What’s not unique to Korea is some idiot demonizing foreigners. What makes it so shameful is that there are so many of them.
Good point, Maugrim. If social change were not measured by degree, then most everything would be in some state of failure. There’s your glass half-empty, bluejives.
Considering how, on average, a white man would absolutely HATE to see a white woman (esp an attractive one) dating a black man, I hardly think any of you are in a position to criticize Mr Iago. At least he’s being damn honest. The only difference between Mr Iago and you is that you’ve been indoctrinated for years by Western political correctness to hide your true feelings. But on a gut instinctive level, we are all the same. So let’s all come off of our imaginary high moral horses, shall we? We men are all products of the same evolutionary forces since the hunting and gathering days. The primal male impulse to protect “our women” and to “conquer” other tribes and their women has been hardwired into our psyche for 1000′s of years and I hardly think that a mere 100 or 50 years of social engineering would make it disappear.
Let’s not forget how fast this country has already progressed. In the pre-Olympics days you were insulted and threatened on a daily basis if you went anywhere but Itaewon with a young Korean woman. Going to a crowded place was to run the gauntlet. So let’s give the country credit for moving closer to international norms.
Bluejives is right in that last post. And it was hardwired into Korean people’s psyches a lot deeper and longer – plus they have a media that won’t let up on trying to whip up xenophobia. But the people are improving anyway. And who among us doesn’t do at least a double-take when we see an attractive white woman with a Korean man?
I really don’t see how you can make that generalization unless you’ve been living somewhere like Salt Lake City all your life (hope I’m not offending anyone from SLC here.
) Considering that interracial relationships are pretty common in America, there must be a lot of pent-up rage, huh? Makes you wonder why there’s not more news of black guys (and their white girlfriends) being beaten up in all corners of the country, if there’s so much hate going on there.
And thank goodness for those years of Western political correctness. If it keeps people from being spit on, beat up, and lynched, I’m all for it. I guess it’s a good thing we have the Internet, so the truly racist people can really open up and remind all the rest of us exactly what we don’t want to be.
What’s wrong with hating foreigners?
Sorry for joining the party so late – and I might be stating the obvious, but here’s my two cents.
President Park and all the other despots enouraged the establishment of entertainment areas for Wae Guks (primarily American soldiers at the time) to keep all the foreigners in one place and out of sight. At the same time, the Koreans could kill two birds with one stone by having “undesirable” women who could consort with soldiers etc. work in those areas. This also allowed the US military too keep its soldiers in a centralized location.
Unfortunately for the Korean blogger in question, several factors (immigrant workers, drugs, demand for english) have led to increased numbers of foreigners coming to Korea. Despite all of the barriers Korean have set up those same foreigners are branching out from their enclaves to experience something other than Itaewon.
As far as soldiers go, its kind of ironic that Gen Leon Laport’s off-limits and curfew policy, designed to keep soldiers in the arts and crafts shop versus the bars, actually encouraged them to also branch out from Itaewon area and go to Hongdae etc. and really start defiling the precious Korean flowers.
The genie is out of the bottle, there is no way things will go back to the way they were. My advice to him, start drinking heavily
There is a world of difference between a white woman dating a black man and a Korean woman dating a white man.
I swore to god that I would not comment on this post, but:
Dogbertt, just what is that world of difference? What makes those two cases differ from each other?
Not to get all zen on you, but what on earth makes you think they are comparable?
dogbertt, now I am curious, too. Please explain yourself.
Stepping off the It’s a Small World ride for a moment and casting PC aside, whites : blacks != koreans : whites
Ergo, bluejives’s comparison is invalid.
“And who among us doesn’t do at least a double-take when we see an attractive white woman with a Korean man?”
I usually do a double take as it is just not something you see everyday! A “double-take” does not imply negative feelings. Hell I often look at the guy and think “poor bastard”. Then I see a foreign guy with a Korean girl and often think…”poor bastard”…etc etc.
As for BJ…Give it a rest. It appears as though you have not escaped some sort of indoctrination either.
Perhaps the original dude here could be an inspiration for a new monthy feature….
Angry Blogger of the Month!
Where bloggers of all nationalities have an equal shot at the coveted title….
Considering how, on average, a white man would absolutely HATE to see a white woman (esp an attractive one) dating a black man, I hardly think any of you are in a position to criticize Mr Iago.
This is complete bullshit. You live in New York city. Are you a blind shut in?
dogbertt, maybe I’m too stupid to read into anything, but I don’t think you fully explained the blackman: white woman, white man : Korean woman comparison. Please, continue, and elaborate, sil vous plait.
@Dogbert;
I think we all understand that blacks and Asians are different races, but please elaborate on the ‘so what’ of that.
BJ’s comparison was that of white w/another race and was valid in that part, but as Slim points out, complete BS as far as the rest of his observation (or lack of ability to make a coherent one in this matter) is concerned.
Wow, 152 (now 153) comments! My initial prediction on the # of comments was correct, although it took longer than anticipated.
I guess comment growth is logarithmic rather than linear. (See comments 77-78; apologies for the shameless self-reference.)
wjk, to quote Mark Wahlberg, in his seminal role as Dirk Diggler, “You’re not the boss of me!”
That said, it seems pretty obvious to me that there is a long historical relationship between the white and black races that the white and Korean races just do not share. So it is an irrelevant and invalid comparison.
Are you implying that we have solid historical reasons for hating to see a black man with a white woman? Now I’m really curious!
This has been very entertaining. Really! So many memories come flooding back. Hell, the ESL teachers that i met seemed like some lucky SOB\’S TO ME, an underpaid enlisted puke. So that\’s my 2 cents on ESL types.
I write only to commit on post# 138. Bluejives, made me think back to an old and loved movie, when the owner of the Slave asked him this question—\”Conan, what is best in life?\”. And the slave answered, words to the effect, \”To kill your enemy and see him driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women.\” Truth, from the long ago. Perhaps. I wasn\’t there. But I am here and will tell you this; if your a decent black follow, dressed appropratly, pants pulled up, not hanging off your butt and have your hat on rather than hanging off the side, I don\’t care, let me say again, (I don\’t care) who or what color she is. If the reverse is true, I still don\’t care. You deserve each other, no matter her color. You want a white girl? Go for it Dude and goood luck with that. I much prefer the LBFM\’S in the Philippines. Not the ones they ship over to Korea! Almost a different race. Hope I didn\’t hurt anyone\’s feeling.
Concerning the inspired ‘rant masterpiece’ that spawned this thread, Sewing wrote:
“The author knows more slang than a welldigger with a cold foot.”
I like this saying. I have no idea what it means, but I like it.
Sewing, would you explain what this means? I’m familiar with “colder than a well-digger’s ass,” and this seems to stem from a similar bundle of sayings, so…
(Not that I intend to send this thread antigogglin.)
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
Hah hah…I made it up. I came up blank for “The author knows more sland than…,” and thought of “Colder than a welldigger’s foot”!
I used to work with a guy who had a colourful swearing vocabulary, without ever actually used swear words! “Jiminy jumping crickets!” is my favourite, followed by “Colder than a welldigger’s foot” and other ones I can’t even recall. Hearing him swear was highly entertaining.
“sland” = “slang.”
Thanks for the link, BTW.
Sorry, forgot to add that that kind of non-swearing swearing lends itself very neatly to a public medium like the World Wide Web. Looks more graceful than say, “f***” with three stars. IMHO.
I’m not implying anything. I merely said that bluejives’s comparison is inaccurate and irrelevant.
I can’t believe that’s kept you and wjk exercised for the better part of a week.
montclaire, what is this, race-baiting? Dogbert gave you the reason, but I will elaborate because you are being obtuse. Blacks and whites in America have history between them that includes slavery, segregation, miscegenation laws and a whole other host of issues that Koreans and whites do not have. There is very little history between whites and Koreans, especially when it comes to inter-racial dating. There is none of the baggage between Koreans and whites as there is between blacks and whites. As dogbert said, the “comparison is inaccurate and irrelevant”.
It is obvious that you are fishing for racist sentiment. Quit it, already.
Wait a second. That historical “baggage” would explain why a black American would not like to see a white man with a black woman. But it doesn’t explain why a white man would not like to see a black man with a white woman. Koreans had miscegenation laws of a type too, by the way. And segregation – with foreigners stuck in trading compounds etc.
I’m not fishing for racist sentiment – just for an explanation. Is that asking too much?
Sewing, thanks for the explanation. I suspected that you might be the coiner of that new currency. Good one.
Jeffery Hodges
* * *
“wiesunja from Japan your flag Says:
August 11th, 2006 at 1:09 am
Question- Why do we not often hear of similar rantings from Japanese men towards foreign English teachers in Japan? Are the foreigners in Japan abstaining or are Japanese men more confident?
Talk about hitting the nail on the head. There is just as much, if not more fraternizing between foreigners and Japanese women. However, unlike Koreans, Japanese men do not go apeshit crazy of foreigners stealing their women. They posess a characteristic which seems very foreign and incomprehensible to the Korean mind… something called “security and self confidence.”
Ironic thing is that Koreans love to point out this fact of smooth relations between the local Japanese girls and gaijin men as some sort of negative or degenerate aspect of Japanese culture. In other words, the message that Koreans portray is, “Look at how superior Korean culture is compared to Japanese culture. Japanese totally feel comfortable with letting their women date foreigners whereas we Koreans show our superiority by beating, crying, screaming at foreigners and flooding internet boards with racist messages when we see inter-racial relationships. You see, we Koreans are proud that we are racist and insecure!” ”
wow- has the person who wrote this been to the clubbing/dating scene in Japan lately? I came back from japan about threee days ago, and as a foreign woman who was interested in dating a Japanese man, i can tell you that the answer is NOT necessarily in that Japanese men have more confidence. First of all, I’ve discussed the issue of Japanese/non-Japanese relations with a lot of my friends (noth foreigner and Japanese) and it basically boiled down to this:
Japanese women/foreign man: foreign men have something called ‘the foreigner advantage’. the japanese guys seem to think that if a japanese girl had to choose between a foreigner and a japanese man, she would choose the foreigner, for a variety of reasons – foreign men treat their women better, different from everyday life, maybe get to go to an exotic country. as one pair of japanese friends woefully conveyed, ‘日本の男性はもてない’ – japanese men are not romantically popular. no one here seems particualarly surprised, or bothered (at least in tokyo) by seeing this combination, not even if in a part of town that is almost completely japanese and very very drunk.
Japanese man/foreign women: almost non-existent, for a number of reasons, most of them confidence related. are japanese men interested in foreign women? sure! except sometimes the women are either too big, don’t speak japanese well enough( the japanese guys worried a lot about communication issues), or else they assume they’re not interested in japanese men. and whereas its relatively ok for a guy in japan to hit on a girl, the opposite is mostly not true. thus, with the extreme lack of confidence of the japanese guys concerning foreign girls, they won’t hit on them the way foreign guys hit on the japanese ones, and if a foreign girl tries to hit on a japanese guy, its a turn off (a bit too forward/strong/scary). and this is even in Roppongi, Tokyo’s clubbing district that caters extensivley to a crowd of foreigners and Japanese who are interested in the other.
so, yes, the japanese don’t react in the same way as the korean men but it doesn’t mean that it is for reasons of confidence! it seems to be more in line of the Japanese culture bit about not really so much talking about embarrassing or shaming things. what was the most common thing i heard when i asked japanese guys why they think some japanese girls like foreign men? ‘because we are smaller in body’. there is definitely a complex here too. the difference is, it seems the japanese men have too much dignity to scream about it online and too free a society to worry overly much about the japanese girls who do end up with foreign men. and please take note- everything i wrote here, has come either from first-hand experience with being a foreign girl in the japanese dating scene or from male japanese friends, who of course don’t represent every male in japan but do represent a decent cross-section of ages, occupations, views on life in the tokyo area.
I’m thinking this hit some nerves somewhere…
yes, it hit some nerves, but more in the sense of i was really frustrated with japanese guys’ lack of confidence/self-esteeem, so when someone said something to the contrary i felt the misunderstanding needed to be cleared up. and maybe also just to rant a little.
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