Mr. Breen looks at Cheong Wa Dae’s recent outbursts against Japan and explains how many South Koreans look at North Korea:
Japan may be a rival team, but we’re playing the same beautiful game of free market democracy. But North Korea hates the game and, most of all, South Koreans.
So what is this presidential _ to use a current image _ headbutt to the chest all about?
It suggests that South Korea’s leaders and the international community think differently about the significance of the North Korean missile thing than their allies. Here in South Korea, we are playing a different match than the rest of the world is playing.
Here’s our game: We know that North Korea is a sad failure of a state with a leadership that doesn’t allow proper elections because, if it did, it would have been voted out years ago. This wretched country once thought of itself as the rightful owner of our beloved peninsula. Now it’s struggling to survive. It has lots of soldiers and a few nuclear weapons, which it employs for leverage. We’re not bothered by them. The real downer is that one day we’re going to wake up and find North Korea has collapsed and we, South Koreans, will have to bear the social and economic burden. That’s why we’re engaging them _ to soften the landing. The annoying reality is that our two closest allies, America and Japan, between them caused this whole mess in the first place, and haven’t even apologized. That’s all in the past, but what isn’t is their belligerence. In America’s case, President Bush is a stupid foreigner who doesn’t understand Korean culture. But the Japanese know better and are just cynically using North Korea as an excuse to return to their old unpleasant ways. The real danger is that overreaction by Washington or Tokyo, for whatever dubious motives, carries with it serious unintended consequences, all of which will make life worse for us.
This is how a majority of Koreans see things.
President Roh should be acknowledged for at least having correctly articulated his country’s perspective.
He then explains that what South Korea really needs are leaders who will articulate the country’s interests—in this case, the need to engage North Korea—in a way its allies can understand. Or at least not do what they are doing now:
If they pick the wrong battles, downplay the seriousness of nuclear weapons, and let flaky idiots (who never got educated because in the ‘80s they spent their days in a fantasy revolution throwing Molotov cocktails at young policemen) set policy and speak for them, other international leaders will continue doing what they are doing now _ which is to ignore them.
Read the rest on your own.
64 Comments
breen seems to understand the rationale for the outrage of the S Koreans and why they do not see the NK missile as big as deal as Japan — even though they are more exposed to the danger, theoretically. but if the SK are right (that Kim JI is more of a nuisance and blackmailer than a real threat), it means Japan really over-reacted.
missiles are not nuclear weapons. they are separate issues. for NK to attack SK with nuke whether they have missile or not just makes zero difference. in addition, SK believe NK will not use nuke against their own compatriots.
with that perspective, you can understand why Roh see Japan’s preemptive strike as a threat but the missiles were nothing but attention-seekers.
……to push the argumentative…in fact, if i were SK, i would give NK missiles so that they can shoot their nuke somewhere else. without the missile, the nukes can only be used to the immediate neighbor.
I’d like to add my two cents.
Of course, South Korean policy on North Korea is seriously flawed. You can’t buy peace, and you can’t keep on bending over while NK rapes you in the ass.
US and Japan’s policies are seriously flawed too, in my opinion. Nobody should give the attention that North Korea wants. They should be ignored totally. These missiles (the Scuds) are garbage left over from the Soviet era. North Korea doesn’t have the technological capability to transform a garbage into an intercontinental missile, anymore than I can transform a Pentium 386 into a Blade server. Making a big fuss over something like this, makes North Korea blush with pride.
What a brilliant idea! After all, with advanced missile technology, NK could potentially use its nuclear deterrant in order to discourage the US or Japan from coming to SK’s aid in the event of a NK invasion (not like they’d be willing once SK started selling missiles to NK). Hope you like prison camps and bland marching music.
Towards the end of the article;
richardson,
we can have different interpretation on their perspective. but this is real and it is what is going through their minds. and it needs to be noted and respected
—
zonath,
you probably over-estimated NK’s military might. war today is not war in 1950. NK technology is of the 1970s. China will not come to rescue if Kim fails again
—
cm on overhype, ditto that.
headbutt is actually a very good analogy …
if zidane’s headbutt is “overly emotional and somewhat infantile”, then materazzi’s foul mouth is ‘provocative and calculated’.
Uh, no elections?? That’s about the last thing on my list were I to name off the problems wth North Korea v.s. the rest of the world. First would come state-enforced starvation, their military-first policy, mass media control, hostile behavior, brinkmanship negotiation… yeah, I’d want all those to change before I asked for democracy.
“The annoying reality is that our two closest allies, America and Japan, between them caused this whole mess in the first place, and haven’t even apologized.”
I am a bit confused with Breen’s take on Roh’s historical perspective. I was under the impression that the Joseon king invited the Japanese to “Dinner.” Upon finishing dinner, the invited guests liked it so much that they decided to stay for more… The Americans were then solicited to remove the unwanted guests… How does that equal and apology requirement on the part of the Americans?
Furthermore, given Seoul’s perchance for never accepting an apology, since accepting it would mean they could not use that blackmail card again at some future date, I wouldn’t apologize if my life depended on it. That would confirm that I did something to apology for, and I would never live that down.
One last thought… When will Seoul apologize to the Yanks for holding them hostage here, as a tripwire, and as a ready excuse for their infantile temper tantrums? If anyone is owed an apology, it is the American tax payers, for financing these adolescents. Perhaps it is time kick this baby bird out of the nest….
The real problem here is that Gomer Hyun has no idea about how realist international relations work. Regardless of how Koreans perceive the north Korean threat or US and Japanese intentions, by acting alone and foresaking the advantages of working within the framework of a united front, they have opened themselves up to this mess. Sure there were problems before the sunstupid policy, but at least north korea knew there were limits. Now, since the current ROK administration telegraphs every move they plan to make and promise unconditional aid, there really is no incentive for the north to change.
Oh well, I will pass this on the Gomer when he goes back to driving a taxi in 2 years.
Sunbin,
Noted yes, respected no. Respect is earned, not given, and there is not much in the perspective of the average person that elected Roh that I can honestly respect, ideologically speaking.
True…. NK is woefully behind the technology race. However, their large stockpiles of WMD could easily serve to level the playing field with SK if it ever came to that. Given that nobody’s entirely sure how many nuclear weapons North Korea possesses, North Korea could even drop a nuke or two on Seoul, and still be able to credibly threaten the destruction of a couple US or Japanese cities should either attempt to intervene. While South Korea could almost certainly win an air or naval war, North Korea still has one of the larest standing armies in the world, and could probably dig in and fight a guerilla war against South Korean targets pretty effectively. Technology counts for a lot, it doesn’t get you all the way there (as the US learned in Iraq). South Korea might well win against North Korea, but neither side would be in good shape for some time to come afterwards.
At any rate, the point is more or less moot, seeing as South Korea doesn’t have the missile technology to give to the North in thr first place — they’d have to break one or two treaties in order to develop it before they could do that.
“and still be able to credibly threaten the destruction of a couple US or Japanese cities should either attempt to intervene.”
I disagree. Yes, North Korea is a threat to South Korea, but she is no threat to the US and Japan. It’s debatable that technologically primitive North Korea can develop missile technology with nuclear payloads to ever threaten to blow up the US and even Japan. What they have is a crude Scud of the 1950’s design.
South Korea should stop financing North Korea, and the world should just ignore North Korea until it crashes internally.
Zonath said “South Korea might well win against North Korea….”
Without the US troops, SK would fall in about 2 months. Seoul would be a suburb of Pyeongyang.
Gillian
The perspective is of most Koreans not yours. They see America as something of a police force but the thing is the north and south Korea conflict is bei nviewed as a family matter. Something like a divorce or two brothers who stop speaking to each other. The Koreans see it as a big family and some outsider trying to act liek a lawyer and weasel away all their assets.
Like we want to keep the house and the funds and the damn courts are taking all our money. Somethign like that. Even the lawyer might have kept them from killing eachother or burnign down the house he is stilll not part of the family and even if one of the brothers die they still want to keep the whole house and not have the “Government” take their family’s share.
I hope that makes sense.
“CM said….Of course, South Korean policy on North Korea is seriously flawed. You can’t buy peace, and you can’t keep on bending over while NK rapes you in the ass.
US and Japan’s policies are seriously flawed too, in my opinion. Nobody should give the attention that North Korea wants. They should be ignored totally. These missiles (the Scuds) are garbage left over from the Soviet era. North Korea doesn’t have the technological capability to transform a garbage into an intercontinental missile, anymore than I can transform a Pentium 386 into a Blade server. Making a big fuss over something like this, makes North Korea blush with pride.”
I couldn’t agree more. The worst possible scenario for Kim-JI and his cronies would be if the world totally ignored their garbage scud grandstanding, reported the 40 second failed long ranch missle launch on page 20 of the NY Times and stopped acting as if these scuds were anything more than they really are which is a last ditch attempt at gaining some political clout. Everyone has played right into the North’s hands and Kim-JI must be laughing up in Pyongyang as he pours himself another shot of Hennessy. Not only has he achieved the fear and clout he sought, as an added bonus all of his main rivals are now bickering amongst themselves. It truly is a grand day in the Worker’s Paradise.
Landros, I understand what you are saying, but my point is, the Yanks left Korea in 1948, only to be called back. The Lawyer (nicely put) has tried numerous times to quit the case, but the defendent won’t let him. Then the defendent abuses the lawyer simply because he is there. This is the thinking of a seriously mentally incompetent person suffering from parinoid schizophrenia. A major persecution complex.
I am going to suggest that perhaps this is not so much a family feud as it is a serious mental illness….
I just love turning on AFN and hearing the Generals talk about the “friendship” that symbolizes the great ROK-US alliance. Unfortunately, that’s not what alliances are about. The real benefit of alliances is that they provide mutually beneficial manipulation but since that’s such a negative word we just say friendship. However, in the course of evaluating options and watching the alliance evolve, the “mutuality” of that manipulation has to be revisited from time to time. The United States is quickly headed towards a necessary re-evaluation of the benefit of this alliance. Now I am not saying its time to end it, but it is certainly time to redefine it. The US needs to make it clear that our relationship with Japan is solid while our relationship with South Korea depends upon there remaining something beneficial for the United States. There are subtle ways of doing that without shaming anyone. Nevertheless, President Roh is making that benefit look less and less evident.
I disagree with Mr. Breen’s assertion that a majority of Koreans hold the perspective he alluded to. If that were so, the alliance re-evaluation I spoke of would mean an end to it. The United States cannot afford to aid nations if they will interpret that aid as hegemonic violations of sovereignty while ignoring the real enemy living next door. I would hope that it is merely a more vocal group but relatively small group of South Koreans who think as he has described.
1. NK is shooting SCUDs and NoDongs as a practice. Their target is Japan.
2. China is behind it all. NK contacted China right before shooting missiles. China officially states it told KJI not to shoot, but I believe the real nature of the call was the opposite.
3. NK is just hugging around, prior to attacking Japan per order of China.
4. Rho was accentuating “one people” idea with NK by verbally attacking Japan. He is hoping the missiles will head toward Tokyo and not toward Seoul.
5. But that may be changing. After noticing that the majority of Koreans are no longer supporting Sunshine policy after missile shootings, Uri have changed their view at least outwardly. Today, Lee the unification minister, refused the NK demands of rice. And, Kim “sleepy eye” Kuntae, the Uri party head, asked NK to appologize for “Sunkun” comment made by NK delegation.
6. Things are changing fast. Koreans are quickly turning around to pro-American side as I have predicted for some time.
7. Japan should maximize this opportunity and arm to the teeth. Mobilize troops as a practice. And, do exercise on attacking NK missile bases. If it doesn’t do that and hug around instead, one day missiles will landing on Tokyo, Kyoto, etc.
If you want to know what happens next, read what I wrote at the beginning of this year.
http://koreanamerican431.blogspot.com/
Japan has up to this point played both Koreas, NK and SK. Even during the anti-Communist time in Korea(1950-1997), Japan kept close relationship with NK while SK shunned any contact with the KJI fughs. Japan was hoping two Koreas would fight and bring more money to her.
But, things are changing. Now China is planning a war with Japan and NK is being used as a front line soldier, Japan is finally cutting its ties with NK.
You cannot play both sides too long.
China is getting stronger and it is time for Japan to embrace SK. Forget about Dokto. You have much bigger things to worry about - nuke missiles exploding in your cities.
Something like a divorce or two brothers who stop speaking to each other.
The Roh Moohyun is David Kaczynski, just now beginning to realize his brother is the Unabomber.
Out of all of that quote THIS is the only statement that makes a half a lick of sense. The rest is nationalistic poppycock.
And, don’t get into a stupid position of the “US and Japan” vs. the “SK and NK”, with China playing the neutral party.
1. China is the one who is calling the shots.
2. The US should not get involved when Japan is attacked by NK supported by China. The US should not! This is the epitome of regional conflict that the little man, Truman, so violently against.
3. Why should American lives given to protect Japan? Japan, in a way, brought this upon herself by visiting Yasukuni and not appologizing sufficiently to the WWII victim countries. Why should my family and neighbors die for these stubborn fools?
4. If the president decides to commit US forces to Japan-NK fight, it will be a typical VietNam. Young people will refuse to fight for rich corporations that invested heavily in Japan. Or, have to save Japan to get their money back. Young people will refuse!
5. If the Pig(China)’s hitman(NK) attacks Japan and let Japan deal with it. If the stupid and lazy people refuse to pass new constitution and arm themselves, then they have to suffer the consequence. Don’t ask the US to defend your country when you yourself are not doing it.
Forget it. The US is not the World’s Police. It has given that up in 1970s.
When NK attacks Japan, it will be extremely foolish for the US to get involved. SK will keep neutral position and China will pretend the same.
The US should not get involved!!!
And, don’t ask SK to get involved either because this is the exact scenario that SKs will tell the US to go to hell. If you know the answer, why ask and get turned down?
Again, the US should not get involved!!!!
And, SK will try to do the best to stay out, even though NK will shoot missile to Japan first and if SK does not join it, NK may shoot missiles to SK. Then, SK will automatically joining Japan.
However, till that happens, do not ask SKs to back Japan. That will be so stupid. If the US prematurely asks this, SK WILL JOIN their brothers in the north.
You know, I think even Bruce Cumings gives the Russians some of the credit for the division of Korea.
That’s one of my favorite diversionary tactics in debate. When one can clearly not defend their view in any rational international relations theory, they’ll throw up a barricade of “it’s culture” to protect themselves from being painfully wrong.
oops. looks like i can’t use the XHTML things quite right yet…
i concur with cm/maekchu/etc, i.e.
“ignore NK like ignoring the rant of internet troll. that is the best response.”
that is why japan’s over-reacting plays right into Kim JI’s plan. i wrote earlier in my blog,
“It is a vicous circle, Pyongyang and Tokyo find themselves unlikely partners in fueling this vicious circle, each to fulfill its own military ambition.”
Sunbin,
If you were a Japanese sitting in Tokyo, how would you feel knowing that your city is in NoDong’s range. And, supposedly mad man on the “SHOOT” switch.
Just trust that KJI would not press the switch? Then, you are like Korean youths who keep repeating “NKs are not gonna attack us. Why would they?”
The world is not a safe place. Just ask any Isralis bombing the heck out of Lebanon.
And, Koreans do hate the Japanese. No doubt about that. With China’s urging, KJI WILL press the button, even one with “nuclear” written on it.
baduk,
if i am sitting on tokyo, i would have worried about that 10 years ago, when the taepodong one fell into pacific.
again, what is the reason for KJI to attack japan?
all these speculations on NK’s attacking Japan are somebody’s fantasies.
i think korean youth are quite rational.
your ‘china urging KJI’ is even more ridiculous.
anyway, i don’t think there is a way we can convince each other as we have different ways of reasoning, so let’s just keep it that way.
Asia is changing quickly. China is growing and tipping the balance in the region toward its direction.
China wanted to attack Taiwan during Clinton administration but failed. China still wants to attack but, with Bush in the white house, it has to wait.
China decided to use NK’s nuke as the exchange card for Taiwan. Bush won’t go for that.
China decided to use NK in a new venture beginning this year. NK is to threaten Japan and eventually start a war(this may be after Beijing olympic).
Why? Because the Chinese want to be number one in Asia. And, the Japanese are pissing them off, opposing their every move.
Besides, Japan has per capita income of about $40K while China’s is only $1K. It takes too long to play catch up game. Meanwhile, if China attacks Japan and eat up Japan, then China will be making $20K (40/2) using Japanese slaves to work for them.
China will attack Japan. It is only a matter of time.
Man, you suck at math as well as science. Assuming China and Japan didn’t completely decimate each other’s industry and economy, allowing China to take full advantage of Japan’s economy without a hiccup (and pigs might fly), then the resulting country will have about 1.3 or 1.4 billion people (assuming nobody dies). Seeing as Japan right now has a population of somewhere around 130 million, the resulting per capita income would be far less than $20K/year. Seeing as China’s economy is bigger than Japan’s (by at least twice based on GDP) in the first place, China absorbing Japan wouldn’t have as big an effect as you think.
Baduk, why shouldn’t the US get involved in the event North Korea unilaterally attacks Japan? What is Japan doing that should warrant North Korea to attack innocent lives? Yasukuni? Please, the only people who are dying over Yasukuni are a select few people in Korea the world is better off without. Doesn’t America stand for freedom anymore? America should defend Japan for the same reasons it should defend South Korea, 1) it’s the right thing to do 2) they have a contract to do so. Obviously #1 is wasted on many people online, but lets look at #2. Lots of countries have contracts with America for defense. America brakes off one contract, the whole world falls into an arms race because America is no longer trustworthy.
The contract would of course been null if Japan were to wage an attack first, (unless of course Japan talks of their plans with other allies and it becomes an allied approved move — something Japan has been doing very well) and the contract with S. Korea will soon be null if they don’t stop supplying the enemy with means to attack. I mean, South Korea is against sanctions preventing weapons trade with North Korea??? Is their any reason we shouldn’t over throw the South Korean government as a side job when we overthrow the North Korean one???
Darin,
Let’s just limit our discussion to Japan’s defense.
Many people in America, especially non-military people, are fed up with the US government spending billions to defend Japan. Some even say that Japan got rich off on the US. Their reasoning is that Japan spends little money on the defense because the US is doing the job for it and that is the reason Japan is getting rich.
I don’t know if that is true. However, average Americans does not like Japan. They like Japanese cars, cameras and Sony games, but that is about it. Don’t go near Detroit. In the 1980s, Americans hated the Japanese with big “H” when they came and bought up buildings in the US cities.
Now you mention that the US is obligated to defend Japan because she signed a piece of paper fifty years ago. Well, if you think any government will automatically enter somebody else’s war because a piece of paper, then you are too naive.
The president will make a decision and the Congress has to approve it. This is not automatic in any sense of the word. The resolution may pass in the House of Representatives but get struck down in the Senate.
Again, average Americans are not ready to send their sons and daughters to die for the Japanese defense. They are not going to do that.
There is inherent danger in relying on other nation to defend your country. You, yourself, have to do it first. And, Japan is rich enough to do that. Japan is not a small and poor country that needs American help. You guys are plain lazy. Too lazy to defend your country.
America has other commitments, especially in the Middle East. If NK attacks Japan, the Japanese have to be the first ones to fight. Don’t look at the US to solve your problems for you.
America should and will stay out.
In the 1980s, some author wrote a book called “War with Japan”. He appeared on a talk show and blasted the Japanese. How the Japanese got rich by selling inferior cars,how they bought out politicians, how they use loopholes in trade, how they want to invade Alaska, etc.
And, he was well-received by American people. At the time, people in Detroit were getting laid off because of small Japanese cars. One Chinese guy got beaten to death in Detroit because bar patrons thought he was a Japanese.
And, the Japanese bought the Lincoln center in New York. Americans were pissed to the max. The Japanese who killed Americans few decades ago were buying up American cities.
Since then, the computer industry started in the US and many Americans got rich and they do not make big issue out of Japanese purchases any more. However, if Americans today were as poor as 1980s, they could go to war against Japan.
Japan is not loved by average Americans.
Baduk,
I just had to register on this site and respond to the nonsense you have written here. Where did you get that stuff. You have a vivid imagination in my opinion.
Let me say what I want to say point by point.
1. Who are these millions of people who are supposedly so tired of America’s defense commitments to Japan and why do they matter. I know for a fact there are a lot of influential people in Washington who are absolutely pissed with the South Korean government and its policy of coddling the NKs, not to mention the widespread anti-Americanism in South Korea in recent years. But I have yet to read any articles from serious source suggesting any real widespread support for ending or reducing America’s defense committments or military cooperation with Japan, really never. There are some analysts and politicians in the US who would like to see Japan change its constitution so that Japan could take on an even more active role in maintaining the stability of East Asia but that is a long way from breaking all ties with Japan in the event of a crisis; where are you getting this crap from?
2. If Japan is attacked by NK there is no doubt in my mind what so ever that the US would respond and respond hard; with the full force of its military capabilities. Why; because Japan is America’s first and foremost ally in Asia and the idea of America leaving one of its closest allies to potentially fall into China’s sphere of influence is just …well not going to happen. And then of course there are America’s very very significant economic ties to Japan, including the countless billions of dollars in assets American investors have in Japan and vice versa. Its not going to happen Baduk. Hell we fought a war for Kuwait - America’s trade and political ties with Kuwait are a minor miniscule fractions of its with Japan.
3. Baduk or maybe I should call you Michael Crichton it is not 1989 anymore. Japan-bashing in middle America has been pretty much dead since the much feared Japanese economic hegemony we all imagine in the 1980s never came to be. Japan itself has had a decade of economic troubles, while the US experienced its biggest boom in generations. And even at the height of the early 90s recession American opinion of Japan was certainly never as negative as it was towards countries like China, Russia, France, or just about anyplace in Africa, Latin America, or the Mid-East.
Fact is for most Americans who know anything about Japan see the country as a trusted ally with an interesting “exotic” culture. Americans under 35 associate Japan a hell of a lot more with anime movies, video game consoles, and cute cudly big eyed cartoon characters than they do with Hirohito or Pearl Harbor. Your image of how Americans see Japan has little to do with reality in my opinion.
So basically hell yeah America would honor its commitments to Japan if the country were attacked (no doubt in mind) and it would wise and right in doing so.
darin is right.
1) whatever japanese right wing has done, there is no excuse for the largely peaceful-loving people in japan to suffer. whatever kim jong-il has done, let’s also remmeber the north korean people are inncocent and also victom of suppression.
2) if US suddenly abandoned japan, it has good reason to remilitarize. the peaceful constitution goes hand in hand with US protection. that is the deal.
Wow, as naive as you are bad at math. First of all, mutual defense treaties, like laws, once they are passed by Congress, become the “supreme law of the land” under the Constitution. Generally speaking, the President can send troops to enforce such treaties because, by allowing that treaty to stand, Congress has implicitly agreed to the use of force. In addition, the President would not necessarily need the approval of Congress in order to send troops to the region. Sure, Presidents generally ask for a declaration of war as a common courtesy to Congress, but there’s not a whole lot Congress can do to reign in the President should he decide to go to war. Sure, they could cut funding to the armed forces, or begin impeachment proceedings, but by the time either had enough time to go forward, America would already be pretty deep in the conflict.
Did you learn anything useful in your (one or two) years in high school, or did the hallucinations generally get in the way Might I suggest you go back?
Yeah I’m gonna have to go with Darin, Kompakt, Sunbin, and Zonath here. Japan has showed itself to be the most loyal and committed ally the US has outside of the commonwealth. Sure they have policy differences over trade; Japan would be foolish not to protect its trade surplus as that’s about all they have. South Korea is going to have to stop trying to forces choices on the US between Japan on Korea. The outcome of that choice is all too obvious. In fact, in the name of economic stability and perceived loyalty in current events, Americans will be much more willing to go the aid of Japan than even South Korea should North Korea threaten them.
Holy shit Baduk are you on crack? I mean, wow, there is so much I want to say, but many others have already said it for me.
“You guys are plain lazy. Too lazy to defend your country.”
You guys? 1) I’m not Japanese 2) Too lazy to defend the country? Here’s that law thing again that you don’t seem to comprehend, the same law that says America defends Japan says Japan can’t defend herself. There is a movement to change this which I fully support, but it is following the legal procedure not the Baduk method of craziness. (What are your monthly dues to the legal patent holder Kim^2??)
And I thought it would be a good time to point out that Japan covers a large percentage of the bills America accumulates here and that they don’t cover it all because America gains a lot by having military here. No one in Asia can think about attacking the American mainland before first taking out the American presence in Japan, basically it’s operation human shield get behind the little people.
And are you sure all Americans hate Japan and it’s really not just you? I mean, America has a very good relationship with Japan, and I think the same can be said for the average American as well. FYI: Most all Japanese cars available in the US of A (minus Acura — still 90% or so made in Japan — as well as 60% of Inifitini is made in Japan) are manufactured in the US of A as well. So your reasoning for the hate just fell right through on that one. Now if we want to take a look China for example, we have a sound argument for ‘hate’ following your logic, but I certainly wouldn’t call the feeling ‘hate’ in that case either.
Sorry, I had to take a screenshot of that just incase I was seeing things!!!
darin,
if you keep on saying right thing, i will have to agree with you again, and again.
i always have great respect for the japanese people. meanwhile i despise the yasukuni clans. i honestly believe most japanese are not as belligerent as those who frequent the yasukuni, in fact, they are more pacifist than many other people.
if one directs his disagreement (and anger) toward the majority of the good people, it will only push them toward the right wing, which is detrimental to both japan and its neighbors.
but that does not mean japanese people are not brain-washable. they were brainwashed in WWII, and they are again at this NK fuss.
Well, the US may chase after KJI after Japan is attacked, but will find out soon enough that it is not KJI she is fighting.
It is China.
If the US-Japan combined forces (don’t ask SK to defend Japan. This is the exact scenario that Koreans are so mad about) ever get close to the Yalu river, you know what will happen next.
The US and China will have Korean War II. Last time this happened, the US gave up. Would the US go into this possible WWIII scenario?
Questionable, at best.
Even an average guy like me can see this folly, would the president of the US with thousands of advisors do this.
I don’t think so!
The Japanese will pass the change to constitution soon and when NK attacks Japan will fight alone. The US will keep neutral position officially while supplying some weapon systems behind the scene.
Japan will be able to counter NK threat sufficiently. However, if Japan does chase after KJI, then it will start fighting China. The US will only enter the war, if Japan islands get pounded with Chinese airforce bombers and missiles.
Human shield? Don’t make me laugh. In this time of intercontinental missiles and nuclear submarines. Ha, there is someone who has no idea about how modern wars are fought.
take another screenshot here:
if US refuse to come to help in case japan is attacked, japan has every right to re-arm.
however, as long as US still has the treaty to defend japan; and japan could not convince its neighbor that it will be peaceful, it better sticks with the current consitution.
One thing is clear. SKs are not going to die for the defense of Japan.
If NK and Japan start a war, leave SKs alone. SK will keep neutral position on this war. Don’t ask SK to die for Japan. They have done that already during WWII.
Japan, do your share and fight NKs. And, wait till NKs start firing against SKs, if ever. I think there is better than 50-50 chance that this will happen.
Then, SKs will fight for you. However, Japan needs to wait till that happens.
Baduk, you seriously have some issues…. And I think that’s all I need to say.
I get the feeling some of you are not getting the complete picture. The following things will happen.
1. NK shoots missiles to Japan as ordered by China.
2. Japan retaliates by shooting missiles and attacks NK.
–at this point, China, the US and SK are all neutral to this NK provocation and response.
3. Japan lands on NK and pushes KJI to the Chinese border.
4. China enters the war. China pushes Japan out and start attacking Japan islands.
5. The US enters the war and protects Japan. NKs start shooting missiles to SK. SK enters the war.
6. EU works out the peace treaty between China and the US.
Outcome: No change in territories. No Korean unification. Many cities in China and Japan have been utterly destroyed, some even with nuclear bombs. KJI still surviving and curse loudly as ever, with the Chinese backing. SK gets close to the US and Japan.
Man, someone is in need of Nurse Ratchet and a couple of ward attendents. Even Jim Jones had a couple of interesting things to say from time to time but after a while you just have to ignore the insanity.
Japan has missiles that can reach North Korea? Sort of odd for a country that doesn’t even build aircraft carriers because they don’t consider them necessary for defense. Again, you’re truly off-base with this.
Now you’re smoking something. Any strike by North Korea against Japan or South Korea will be met with an immediate response by the US. Period. This is basically why the US has a carrier group stationed in Japan (and nuclear submarines in Guam). The instant NK attacks, the US starts the 24-hour bombing/missile raids against NK infrastructure and military.
Huh… and this from the guy who kept predicting that SK would join NK in an attack against Japan. Keep those predictions coming. Even a blind pig finds a truffle every now and then.
Zonath,
Japan has been developing or soon will buy Tomahawk missiles from the US. These ship-to-land missiles can be carried aboard any ship.
About Japan attaking NK, I am agreeing with a popular scenario floating around among Korean netizens.
Japan will change quickly in response to NK missiles. It will delete the “defense” only wording from its constitution. Japan will expand its military to include attack capability. All these changes are necessary because the US cannot fight two fronts simultaneously. Middle East situation will never let up and the US cannot fight both Iran and NK at the same time.
NK attack on Japan may commence as the US starts military action against Iran.
Japan has to and will take independent posture on its defense. The US will aid both SK and Japan when attacked but the both will have to do its own defense. The US cannot do it all.
Americans do not want their children dying for either Korea or Japan. Middle East is different; the region has oil.
Unless NK directly invaded SK, the US wouldn’t have to do anything of the sort. The US Pacific fleet that isn’t committed to other operations would probably be more than enough to contain NK. So long as the US goal was containment rather than occupation, the US wouldn’t even have to commit any extra ground forces to the region.
Oh? And what’s your source for this? AP? Reuters? Your obviously syphilis-addled mind?
Oh, you get your information from Korean netizens. Personally, I would rate the average ‘netijen’ as about on-par with the average American conspiracy nut (the kind that claim that 9/11 was orchestrated by the CIA), but hey… to each his own, I guess. I get my paranoid delusions from watching reruns of ‘the X-files’, myself.
See? Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. You’d better start eating more of those funny mushrooms that grow in your back yard. You actually made sense there. And the fact is that Japan is most likely more than capable of shutting down NK’s (laughable) air force and navy should the need arise. It’s also highly doubtful the US would just stand by. After all, what’s the point of stationing an entire carrier group in Japan other than to be prepared for exactly this kind of thing? But I’m sure you’ll just minimize that fact, just like you do whenever your baseless assumptions don’t pan out.
Gee, and here I was thinking that a hegemonic US war for oil would be much less popular than the defense of a staunch ally attacked by a regime that has repeatedly threatened America with destruction. After all, lots of Americans want their kids to die for oil. Heck, just yesterday I saw a guy sacrifice his firstborn son for 10 gallons of 92 octane.
Nobody wants their kids to die, but I’m utterly certain that the defense of an ally would be much more palatable than a war of invasion to the US public.
Zonath,
http://www.strategypage.com/dl.....213835.asp
A better discussion can result if you bring facts instead of your emotional outbursts. Are you under age?
–back to NK and Japan
Today, UN passed the resolution on NK. However, the important part of the resolution, the military action part, was dropped due to China’s objection. The bill does not have any teeth.
NK immidiately replied the UN can go to hell.
Contain NK? How do you contain NoDong missiles?
NK will start by shooting 20-40 NoDong missiles to Japan. Japanese cities will be destroyed.
Japanese air force (with the USAF?) will retaliate by destroying NK missile bases, but NK will continue to shoot missiles from hidden locations.
Japan has to go in and take KJI out. And, that is when she will face China.
China is behind it all.
China fought against the entire UN forces during 1950 Korean War.
The UN will pass a resolution for condemning NK and ask its member nation to send soldiers to punish NK. China, SK and Russia will abstain. Many countries including EUs will only send few soldiers.
When these UN soldiers all go into NK to capture KJI, China will enter the War.
Actually, China wants to fight Japan (and the US?). This gives a good excuse.
After a few months’ of fighting and destruction of many cities in Japan and China, a peace treaty will be drawn. NK will come back. KJI will come back. That is what happened in 1953.
China, I believe, is still using NK nukes and missiles as an exchange chip for Taiwan.
The Japanese, who are alarmed by the missiles, will influence the US politicians to give up Taiwan to China.
The Japanese has lots of spending money. They may be successful in giving the Taiwanese to China. The people with no values other than survival.
If that happens, the US credibility in the region will hit new lows. China will become the Boss.
Bad ook
Again, you’re way off base, here. “Thinking about buying” does not equate to “is developing or soon will buy”. For the one talking about bringing facts to the table, you sure do all you can do in order to distort your own (when you don’t just make stuff up you know little or nothing about).
Hey, I’m not the one with an ugly baby as my avatar picture, or a loose grasp on reality. You might think of bringing some actual facts to the discussion yourself, lest you be in danger of being labelled as just another useless Internet troll. At any rate, I’m not really interested in discussing your fantasy world any longer, so go ahead and call me emotional and lacking any basis in reality, but that’s just the pot calling the kettle black, as far as I’m concerned. After all, I haven’t gone around advocating the expulsion of any particular news agency from Korea based solely on an article unfavorable to a certain poorly-ranked soccer team lately.
Good luck with those delusions.
Newsagencies are businesses too. Have you seen the movie, “Insider”? Many people think newspaper reporters are neutral.
Far from it.
Editors consider the effect of their articles to the reader. Would this article sell more papers or less in the future? Newspaper articles are nearly never neutral.
Sometimes, if a newspaper publish something against Koreans, yes you do have to do something about it. If a McDonald’s restaurant make a commercial ridiculing Koreans, yes you do have to boycott the restaurant.
The same principle should work against newspaper business. It is “business”, even though they pretend not to be so.
http://www.iht.com/articles/20.....other1.php
Missile defense mooted for Japan
TOKYO: Some top government officials have made remarks suggesting that Japan should possess the military capability to attack and destroy North Korea’s missile bases before the country actually launches the weapons toward Japan. Our security policy dictates that when Japan comes under attack, the Self-Defense Forces should concentrate on defending the nation, leaving the job of attacking the enemy’s bases to U.S. forces. This is the fundamental principle of the strictly defensive security policy Japan has followed in the postwar era. Japan must not rush to change this policy in an overreaction to Pyongyang’s provocative missile tests. What North Korea fears most is the military power of the United States. Japan’s strategy should focus on seeking a diplomatic solution to such a crisis on the assumption that U.S. power works as an effective deterrent against attacks on Japan.
http://www.cato.org/homepage_item.php?id=306
Ted Galen Carpenter:
Indeed, even if North Korea were eventually to develop a fleet of missiles capable of reaching U.S. territory, it would be a manageable threat. Granted, every sensible person would wish that the hermit kingdom did not have either nuclear weapons or long-range missiles. But the United States has thousands of nuclear warheads and the means to deliver them with pinpoint accuracy. We have deterred other strange and ruthless regimes in the past, most notably the Soviet Union under Josef Stalin and China under Mao Zedong.
We should be able to deter the likes of Kim Jong-il. The North Korea regime, while bizarre and brutally repressive, has never shown signs of suicidal behavior. And attacking the United States, which possesses thousands of nukes, would be suicidal.
Relying on deterrence is far better than embracing reckless proposals to launch preemptive air strikes on North Korea. It is also better than escalating the crisis by adopting Japan’s suggestion to impose comprehensive international economic sanctions. We need cool heads to prevail during this difficult time.
Sunbin,
Your two articles are garbages. I like the reply by Justin Logan quoted on the second reference.
“Countries like North Korea pose a greater threat to Japan than to the United States, and a “normalized” Japanese defense posture would reflect that reality.”
—Translation: Japan must wipe its own ass. Japan needs to take leading role in defending Japan. The US should do less (or, none.)
“To the extent that North Korea’s behavior prods Japan to assume a larger role in East Asian security”
—Japan must re-arm and get as strong as China, or more. At least enough to gain the respect of Koreans.
“this could strain relations between Beijing and Pyongyang. Anything that causes Japan to move toward rearming is highly unwelcome in China.”
—Not necessarily. Beijing likes Japan to get strong. Strong enough that Japan would not rely on the US. China wants Japan to get cocky and break away from the US. This way the China-Japan War will not include the US.
China wants to repay Japan, for what she did in China during WWII.
Many Korean pundits predicted China will curb NK nuke because China does not want its neighbor to have a nuke capability and NK nuke will make it easier for Japan and Korea to have nukes.
Dead wrong!
China does not mind NK nuke. Sometimes, it seems that China is supporting NK nuke. F***ing six party gibberish and all.
In the same way, China loves NK missiles. And, I believe, China is the one who told NK to have nuke and missiles.
Therefore, this fancy Justin Logan guy is wrong about China wanting to curb NK missiles. Actually, Christopher Hill said that he has an evidence that KJI talked to China right before the launch. I am sure that the communication was to get the last minute Chinese permission.
There are so few strategists in the world who see the situation in the correct light. Even if they know China is behind it all, they are afraid to say it outloud because people are comfortable to think NK is acting by itself and China is helping the US to dissolve the situation. Another case of the proverbial Emperor without clothes! Churchill was the only one who exposed Hitler when entire English House believed that he was a man of peace. China needs to be exposed.
That’s not an ugly baby. Still, I prefer the cat.
I may sound like a broken record, but,
This delusional mindset that the North and South can ever come together has got to come to an end.
As long as Kim Jong-ILL’s in power and China’s Communist government will up and leave to another part of the universe. It will never happen.
I will never understand the Left-Wing Socialists who continue to blame US-Japanese Alliance for this mess. It’s incomprehensible.
I still, don’t understand just what this idiot Micheal Breen is saying.
—————————————————————-
Here’s our game: We know that North Korea is a sad failure of a state with a leadership that doesn’t allow proper elections because, if it did, it would have been voted out years ago. This wretched country once thought of itself as the rightful owner of our beloved peninsula. Now it’s struggling to survive. It has lots of soldiers and a few nuclear weapons, which it employs for leverage. We’re not bothered by them. The real downer is that one day we’re going to wake up and find North Korea has collapsed and we, South Koreans, will have to bear the social and economic burden. That’s why we’re engaging them _ to soften the landing. The annoying reality is that our two closest allies, America and Japan, between them caused this whole mess in the first place, and haven’t even apologized. That’s all in the past, but what isn’t is their belligerence. In America’s case, President Bush is a stupid foreigner who doesn’t understand Korean culture. But the Japanese know better and are just cynically using North Korea as an excuse to return to their old unpleasant ways. The real danger is that overreaction by Washington or Tokyo, for whatever dubious motives, carries with it serious unintended consequences, all of which will make life worse for us.
—————————————————————–
Is he saying Korea still should maintain “Sunshine Policy”?
Just how the fuck is N. Korea going to come down on a “soft landing,” when the same nauseating policy is propping it up?
They act like they’re dealing with a reasonably sane person here.
Since when has a Communist Dictator shown himself to be “reasonably sane”?
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This is how a majority of Koreans see things.
—————————————————————–
Is that how majority of Koreans really see it Micheal, or, is that how you see it? Judging by the recent elections there, you’re only off by a fucking light year.
Not
“baduk from United States Says:
July 16th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
Sunbin,
Your two articles are garbages.”
cato and IHT are respected institution. i believe we know what is garbage and what is not.
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[...] Update: This opinion piece by Michael Breen provides some insight on why Roh makes some decisions, and what South Korea should actually be doing. H/t Robert. [...]