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	<title>Comments on: Realy bad ideas on Korea&#8230; from the NYT</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/</link>
	<description>Korea... in Blog Format</description>
	<pubDate>Sun,  7 Sep 2008 07:06:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: snow</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41484</link>
		<dc:creator>snow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41484</guid>
		<description>What if the US just ignored NK? Just quietly went about patrolling the waters for shipments of nukes and missiles, pushed for restrictions on banking with the North and other 'quiet war' measures, including deals with China, SK and Japan to tighten the noose (as much as possible)? At the same time, just ignore them and don't go to any talks of any kind, do not respond publicly to anything the Norks do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if the US just ignored NK? Just quietly went about patrolling the waters for shipments of nukes and missiles, pushed for restrictions on banking with the North and other &#8216;quiet war&#8217; measures, including deals with China, SK and Japan to tighten the noose (as much as possible)? At the same time, just ignore them and don&#8217;t go to any talks of any kind, do not respond publicly to anything the Norks do?</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Koehler</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41472</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Koehler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41472</guid>
		<description>Jing---Fair enough in terms of Chinese nuclear policy (and the implications of regional nuclear proliferation thereon), but even granting that China would probably come to possess more weapons capable of hitting the United States, such an attack would be suicidal, and if the what's more, the Chinese arsenal would have to target several potential enemies---Japan, India, Russia, South Korea, Taiwan---not just the United States.

As for the matter of control, of course I agree that the U.S. has looked askance at proliferation partly out of concern of weakening its own influence with its allies.  But this determination to maintain its influence over the security policies of its friends in the region comes at an ever increasing cost---the U.S. will need to devote increasing resources keeping its &lt;del&gt;dependencies&lt;/del&gt; allies safe.  Hence you gotta ask yourself if it's worth keeping your friends weak and inviting their resentment in order to maintain your clout over them.  An alliance is only as good as its constituent parts, after all.  And at any rate, Britain and Israel developed their own independent deterrents while maintain close security cooperation with Washington, while Washington's clout over both non-nuclear Turkey and Greece didn't stop them from mixing it up repeatedly.  Is there any reason to believe that Japan or South Korea would be any less cooperative with the United States than they already are were they to acquire security infrastructures commensurate with their national power, or that U.S. influence over said countries could prevent them from grinding their axes with other nations in the region?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jing&#8212;Fair enough in terms of Chinese nuclear policy (and the implications of regional nuclear proliferation thereon), but even granting that China would probably come to possess more weapons capable of hitting the United States, such an attack would be suicidal, and if the what&#8217;s more, the Chinese arsenal would have to target several potential enemies&#8212;Japan, India, Russia, South Korea, Taiwan&#8212;not just the United States.</p>
<p>As for the matter of control, of course I agree that the U.S. has looked askance at proliferation partly out of concern of weakening its own influence with its allies.  But this determination to maintain its influence over the security policies of its friends in the region comes at an ever increasing cost&#8212;the U.S. will need to devote increasing resources keeping its <del>dependencies</del> allies safe.  Hence you gotta ask yourself if it&#8217;s worth keeping your friends weak and inviting their resentment in order to maintain your clout over them.  An alliance is only as good as its constituent parts, after all.  And at any rate, Britain and Israel developed their own independent deterrents while maintain close security cooperation with Washington, while Washington&#8217;s clout over both non-nuclear Turkey and Greece didn&#8217;t stop them from mixing it up repeatedly.  Is there any reason to believe that Japan or South Korea would be any less cooperative with the United States than they already are were they to acquire security infrastructures commensurate with their national power, or that U.S. influence over said countries could prevent them from grinding their axes with other nations in the region?</p>
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		<title>By: Jing</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41428</link>
		<dc:creator>Jing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41428</guid>
		<description>To address Slim, there are again I believe two constraints on Chinese involvement in resolving the North Korea nuclear issue. The first is a matter of intent, the second is a matter of capability.

Forgive me for using a truism, but politics is messy and policy formulations are never clear cut. There is always back and forth weighing on the benefits or limitations of one course of action. I believe China is trapped in a sort of policy dilemma in regards to North Korea. On the one hand, a nuclearized North Korea is not to China's benefit as it is potentially destabilizing and could affect China negatively depending on the resolution of the situation and the actions of other parties involved. On the other hand however, a nuclearized Korea can serve as a tool to gauge U.S. responses and intent and an erratic Kim Jong Il also serves to divert U.S. attention and to keep "Uncle" otherwise pre-occupied. Whether one policy is ultimately more beneficial than the other in the minds of Chinese policy makers is unknown, and Chinese action, or rather inaction, seems to be a result of this policy dilemma.

On the second issue, I believe China's political influence on North Korea is grossly overstated. Unlike Baduk, I do not believe KJI is China's stooge, but rather that he has his own interests at heart, that is the survival of KJI. Historically speaking, Chinese influence in North Korea has waxed and waned depending on circumstance and KJI's predeccesor played the Soviets off against the Chinese when it suited him. Most of the pro-Chinese North Korean communists have been purged long ago and it is unlikely that KJI enjoys good relations with Beijing. China is also limited in taking concrete actions to affect North Korea because doing so would be destabilizing to North Korea and the ultimate goal of China seems to be stability uber alles. Preserving the North Korean state, but not letting the situation degenerate too far out of control (in Beijing's reckoning) seems to be the modus operandi of the Chinese.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To address Slim, there are again I believe two constraints on Chinese involvement in resolving the North Korea nuclear issue. The first is a matter of intent, the second is a matter of capability.</p>
<p>Forgive me for using a truism, but politics is messy and policy formulations are never clear cut. There is always back and forth weighing on the benefits or limitations of one course of action. I believe China is trapped in a sort of policy dilemma in regards to North Korea. On the one hand, a nuclearized North Korea is not to China&#8217;s benefit as it is potentially destabilizing and could affect China negatively depending on the resolution of the situation and the actions of other parties involved. On the other hand however, a nuclearized Korea can serve as a tool to gauge U.S. responses and intent and an erratic Kim Jong Il also serves to divert U.S. attention and to keep &#8220;Uncle&#8221; otherwise pre-occupied. Whether one policy is ultimately more beneficial than the other in the minds of Chinese policy makers is unknown, and Chinese action, or rather inaction, seems to be a result of this policy dilemma.</p>
<p>On the second issue, I believe China&#8217;s political influence on North Korea is grossly overstated. Unlike Baduk, I do not believe KJI is China&#8217;s stooge, but rather that he has his own interests at heart, that is the survival of KJI. Historically speaking, Chinese influence in North Korea has waxed and waned depending on circumstance and KJI&#8217;s predeccesor played the Soviets off against the Chinese when it suited him. Most of the pro-Chinese North Korean communists have been purged long ago and it is unlikely that KJI enjoys good relations with Beijing. China is also limited in taking concrete actions to affect North Korea because doing so would be destabilizing to North Korea and the ultimate goal of China seems to be stability uber alles. Preserving the North Korean state, but not letting the situation degenerate too far out of control (in Beijing&#8217;s reckoning) seems to be the modus operandi of the Chinese.</p>
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		<title>By: slim</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41409</link>
		<dc:creator>slim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:27:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41409</guid>
		<description>Jing's statement makes me wonder wehy China isn't more serious, helpful, constructive, etc in defanging North Korea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jing&#8217;s statement makes me wonder wehy China isn&#8217;t more serious, helpful, constructive, etc in defanging North Korea.</p>
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		<title>By: echowind</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41402</link>
		<dc:creator>echowind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41402</guid>
		<description>well reasoned jing.  i hadn't considered that kind of impact on the u.s.

regarding nukes, i've always been of the opinion that less is better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well reasoned jing.  i hadn&#8217;t considered that kind of impact on the u.s.</p>
<p>regarding nukes, i&#8217;ve always been of the opinion that less is better.</p>
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		<title>By: Jing</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41389</link>
		<dc:creator>Jing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41389</guid>
		<description>There are very good reasons why China has a nuclear monopoly in east Asia and why the U.S. is not particularly keen on changing it. 

The first one is the issue of Chinese nuclear policy. At present, China's policy is one of minimalist deterrance, quite cost effective I might add. A small counter-value arsenal of 20+ ICBM's capable of reaching the U.S. and a few hundred more IRBM's. This means that although the U.S. does have to keep the Chinese arsenal in mind in it's nuclear planning, it is impossible that China would be able to launch a first strike on the U.S. Thus the nuclear threat to the U.S. is minimized.

If Taiwan, South Korea, or Japan were to go nuclear, it would quite likley neccessitate a change in China's nuclear posture. The presence of nuclear weapons so close to China under U.S. auspices would likely lead to more pro-active deployment policy on China's part. Meaning more nukes to increase survivability. The reason that the U.S. and the Soviet Union built tens of thousands of nuclear weapons each was not because it requires that many to destroy one another but rather to increase the chances of survivability to launch a counter-attack should the other launch first. Most U.S. and Soviet missiles were targeted at each other since even a few hundred would be sufficient to destroy nearly all major population centers.

What Japanese/Korean/Taiwanese nukes will mean is that China will likely re-initiate fissile material production, mate warheads to delivery vehicles for quick launch capability, and build many more delivery vehicles. By nuclearizing China's neighbours, the number of missiles capable of reaching the U.S. could mushroom from 20+ weapons to 2000+, ultimately making the U.S. more vulnerable rather than less.

There is also a secondary reason why the U.S. would not look kindly upon proliferation among it's allies in the Pacific. That is a matter of control. With the U.S. maintaining a nuclear duopoly in the Pacific, it has more control over it's allies and ultimately has control should the situation ever escalate to the point of a nuclear standoff. Should one of China's neighbors develop an independent nuclear capability, that would mean the U.S. has less control and less influence on any situations should the proverbial shit hit the fan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are very good reasons why China has a nuclear monopoly in east Asia and why the U.S. is not particularly keen on changing it. </p>
<p>The first one is the issue of Chinese nuclear policy. At present, China&#8217;s policy is one of minimalist deterrance, quite cost effective I might add. A small counter-value arsenal of 20+ ICBM&#8217;s capable of reaching the U.S. and a few hundred more IRBM&#8217;s. This means that although the U.S. does have to keep the Chinese arsenal in mind in it&#8217;s nuclear planning, it is impossible that China would be able to launch a first strike on the U.S. Thus the nuclear threat to the U.S. is minimized.</p>
<p>If Taiwan, South Korea, or Japan were to go nuclear, it would quite likley neccessitate a change in China&#8217;s nuclear posture. The presence of nuclear weapons so close to China under U.S. auspices would likely lead to more pro-active deployment policy on China&#8217;s part. Meaning more nukes to increase survivability. The reason that the U.S. and the Soviet Union built tens of thousands of nuclear weapons each was not because it requires that many to destroy one another but rather to increase the chances of survivability to launch a counter-attack should the other launch first. Most U.S. and Soviet missiles were targeted at each other since even a few hundred would be sufficient to destroy nearly all major population centers.</p>
<p>What Japanese/Korean/Taiwanese nukes will mean is that China will likely re-initiate fissile material production, mate warheads to delivery vehicles for quick launch capability, and build many more delivery vehicles. By nuclearizing China&#8217;s neighbours, the number of missiles capable of reaching the U.S. could mushroom from 20+ weapons to 2000+, ultimately making the U.S. more vulnerable rather than less.</p>
<p>There is also a secondary reason why the U.S. would not look kindly upon proliferation among it&#8217;s allies in the Pacific. That is a matter of control. With the U.S. maintaining a nuclear duopoly in the Pacific, it has more control over it&#8217;s allies and ultimately has control should the situation ever escalate to the point of a nuclear standoff. Should one of China&#8217;s neighbors develop an independent nuclear capability, that would mean the U.S. has less control and less influence on any situations should the proverbial shit hit the fan.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41364</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41364</guid>
		<description>Part of me wishes we had given Taiwan the bomb ages ago the way the French gave the bomb to Israel.  Then, the only plan for reunification between the island and the mainland would be a peaceful one, and the US wouldn't have to keep doing the heavy lifting for Taiwan when the Chinese right decides to rattle its sabers in the Strait.

Were Taiwan to develop nuclear weapons now, however, the Chinese might launch preemptive strikes and claim the Iraq War as justification for their action.  While I think China could tolerate a nuclear South Korea and a nuclear Japan, a nuclear Taiwan under DPP control would make the CCP go apeshit.  On the other hand, if Japan went nuclear, a non-secession-minded KMT leader in Taiwan could get away with launching a nuclear program while saying "nice doggie" to the mainland.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of me wishes we had given Taiwan the bomb ages ago the way the French gave the bomb to Israel.  Then, the only plan for reunification between the island and the mainland would be a peaceful one, and the US wouldn&#8217;t have to keep doing the heavy lifting for Taiwan when the Chinese right decides to rattle its sabers in the Strait.</p>
<p>Were Taiwan to develop nuclear weapons now, however, the Chinese might launch preemptive strikes and claim the Iraq War as justification for their action.  While I think China could tolerate a nuclear South Korea and a nuclear Japan, a nuclear Taiwan under DPP control would make the CCP go apeshit.  On the other hand, if Japan went nuclear, a non-secession-minded KMT leader in Taiwan could get away with launching a nuclear program while saying &#8220;nice doggie&#8221; to the mainland.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Koehler</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41346</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Koehler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41346</guid>
		<description>Thanks, snow.  It's been a while since I fisked the NYT.  Used to do it seemingly every other day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, snow.  It&#8217;s been a while since I fisked the NYT.  Used to do it seemingly every other day.</p>
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		<title>By: snow</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41341</link>
		<dc:creator>snow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41341</guid>
		<description>Here, here. Good fisking job on the hacks at the NYT, Robert. I agree that the responsibility should lie with the inhabitants of the region. If they don't seem to have a problem with the whole region going nuke, including Japan, Taiwan and South Korea, then why should the US?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here, here. Good fisking job on the hacks at the NYT, Robert. I agree that the responsibility should lie with the inhabitants of the region. If they don&#8217;t seem to have a problem with the whole region going nuke, including Japan, Taiwan and South Korea, then why should the US?</p>
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		<title>By: Remort</title>
		<link>http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41290</link>
		<dc:creator>Remort</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 04:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/06/28/realy-bad-ideas-on-korea-from-the-nyt/#comment-41290</guid>
		<description>Nobody takes the New York Times or liberals seriously.

--Remort</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody takes the New York Times or liberals seriously.</p>
<p>&#8211;Remort</p>
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