OK, I read this over at the Retired Colonels’ Association of the ROK, so make of it what you will*—Son Chung-mu reports that Korean and Chinese Americans are essentially being kept out of core advanced technology-related departments and bureaus of the U.S. government.
In particular, it has become tougher for said citizens to find employment with departments dealing with the development of cutting-edge weaponry, all thanks to secretly taken measures by the Bush administration following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
This move was taken, Son claims, because the White House believes a good number of the 150,000 ethnic Chinese scholars, researchers and visiting students in the United States are, in fact, Chinese intelligence agents.
The Commerce and Defense departments discovered after Sept. 11 a “weak point” in the armor, namely, that Chinese scholars, researchers and students who have acquired U.S. citizenship or residency, as well as those that have acquired citizenship or residency in places like Canada, Australia, Britain or Germany, could freely find work at major corporations or U.S. government agencies. They therefore secretly went about fixing their internal systems.
Last March, a Chinese-American working at a naval base in San Francisco, his wife and his brother were arrested on charges of attempting to turn over to Chinese intelligence secret information pertaining to U.S. stealth warship development. Recently, the Heritage Foundation submitted a report to the government advising Washington to pay close attention to Chinese students and Chinese businesses doing businesses with the United States in order to block Beijing from acquiring high-end military technology. The report even suggested that China’s double-digit growth rates were at least partially thanks to stolen technology. It also warned:
There are more than 130,000 students from China in the U.S. at any time, and 3,000 front companies engage in gathering intelligence and industrial secrets.
Son went on to claim—and this may be the reporter’s (right-wing) politics talking—that since the Robert Kim incident, and particularly recently with the South Korean government taking a leftward, pro-North Korean turn, Korean Americans are coming under greater government scrutiny.
He said the U.S. government is expressing concern about rising numbers of Korean Americans finding work at major government agencies and research centers, and is strengthening surveillance in order to prevent another Robert Kim-like incident. He noted that Korean-Americans might be paying a price for the Kim Dae-jung and Roh Moo-hyun administrations treating Robert Kim like a patriotic hero.
* In other words, the Retired Colonels’ Association of the ROK is a very, very conservative organization (some might go as far as to say fascist) and like with news you might read at the homepage of, say, pro-Pyongyang Hanchongnyeon, you have to take the ideological biases of the source into account. In this case, I have no idea where Son is getting his info—as far as I know, he might be making stuff up just to take cheap shots at President Roh and to encourage his own government to get serious about Chinese espionage activities in Korea.
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Classic case of closing the barn door after the horse is gone, or if you like, 亡羊补牢
>>>> He noted that Korean-Americans might be paying a price for the Kim Dae-jung and Roh Moo-hyun administrations treating Robert Kim like a patriotic hero.
That was my feeling when the whole Robert Kim campaign took off — but recall the Chosun and Dong-A were at the front of the line in forming welcoming committees and ignoring the less savory facts of Kim’s espionage.
“The Commerce and Defense departments discovered after Sept. 11 a “weak point” in the armor”
Looks like we have some chinks in our armor.
……. wtf? not even funny. racism is always a huge issue in the us, whether it is blatant or more subtle. in my opinoin, if i was the US government, i would be very cautious, but at the same time stuck in a big predicament. theres no way to prove someones loyalty to the nation, especially because there are so many educated foreigners in the US.
because the country was based on a country of foreigners and immigrants, it hurts when recently, the only non-whites are the ones discriminated against (its been a long time since european americans have been discriminated against).
i cant really blame the US either, because after 9.11, who WOULDNT be cautious of middle easterners, and observing the emergence of china and the shennanigans of n.korea, who WOULDNT be cautious of asians. o well, this is just a frustrating topic for me. sorta wish everyone in teh world was the same skin color. would be boring, but fair.
I think this will change after new Korean administration, very pro-American, comes into power.
I know that there aren’t supposed to be distinctions between naturalized US citizens and US born (and raised) US citizens, but I would be more leery of putting naturalized citizens in positions of sensitive technology importance. And I think China and Korea would too–although, even then I’d be curious to see a Uighur scientist in a politically sensitive position in China.
The Manhattan project wouldn’t have gotten anywhere if it weren’t for naturalized citizens, but I think the government had good reason not to fear that those naturalized Jewish scientists would not be handing secrets over to Hitler’s Germany (even though the bomb was ultimately used on Japan).
Interesting that the article does admit that Korean actions do have political repercussions that sometimes are for the negative.
First of all, our intelligence structure leaks like a sieve, and any attempts to fix it are futile. This article may be talking about DOD civilians, or those at higher level government agencies, but I doubt it has been applied to Civilian Contractors, of whom the Chinese American the article mentions was, or military personel themselves.
Case in point: We had a native Chinese person in my military intelligence unit in Korea. She came to the U.S., became a naturalized citizen by marrying some smuck, served as an FBI translator, then upon running into a clearance brick wall at the FBI joined the Army intelligence corps to get a Top Secret Security Clearance , leaving her husband she suposidely loved so much behind in the U.S.. Lucky for her, her four year degree from the University of Beijing getting her the rank of Specialist was some consolation. We got pretty interesting responses when we mentioned the prospect of war between China and the US or the Great Leap Forward, in conjuction with the fact that she always disappeared by herself after work and didn’t hang out with anybody else.
Now every one of these facts is purely circumstancial. While my tone is biased the facts are true, and wether she is a “spy” or not is beside the point. The point is that there is a way for people to inch their way into a top secret security clearance and trusted position in our government.
Sleep tight fellow Americans (and all you Canadians who leech of our security infrastructure)
Does anyone doubt that the P.R.C. uses the “You’re Chinese, you must help China!” card in order to get intelligence? Undoubtedly many ethnic Chinese in the U.S., citizen or not, are swayed by that.
But, how do you separate them from the Wen Ho Lees?
exactly dogbertt, you can’t. that’s why i can’t get completely angry after reading this article, because the US has no choice but to take full precautions. for instance, after 9/11, there was an extreme amount of racial profiling in airports. but who wants to risk it? no one. thats why even though it wasnt “fair” and was pretty much racist, if you weren’t the one being discriminated against, you really couldn’t denounce the racial profiling.
sow it. reap it.
the love-fest of support for a two-bit traitorous thief was, and is, widespread throughout Korean society. government, public, media, academic, NGO, netdorks.
if there’s anything to be learned from the bob kim case for any potential KA turncoats out there…it’s that they can expect a heroes welcome and loads of donations from their “real” compatriots when they return to the motherland.
don’t think Langley hasn’t noticed.
cptbbq,
I find it hard to believe your ‘facts’ are true when logically if she ‘disappeared off by herself’ how did you know she was by herself after she disappeared? Sounds like your bias turns your suppositions into ‘fact.’
If she chooses not to hang out with people from work, that may not be all by choice, for example, everyone in my office is married. Do I hang out with them? no. Does that make me a spy? uh. no.
Your analytical chain needs some work.
Besides, how professional of you to discuss someone’s personal life … toss a real name in there why don’t you and turn it into a case of libel. Your point is obtuse and farfetched… and quite honestly has no real bearing on the article at hand.
The use of Chinese students and researchers for espionage through out the EU and elsewhere has been well known for some time and reported upon by at least the BBC.
It makes perfect sense to blackball these people simply as a means of dealing with the large amount of people who could be used to breach national security and both high and low levels of security.
Korea may escape this problem given that Korea is a more ethnocentric society, however , that does not make them immune from technological espionage from China. There are still too many native Koreans who would sell out their country for money as has happened before now with Samsung and other chaebol.
Random guy,
please reread my second to last paragraph.
Paragraph two was biased, and biased on purpose. I stated this.
>>”If she chooses not to hang out with people from work that may not be all by choice,”
Exactly, hence the paragraph I suggest you reread.
>>” for example, everyone in my office is married. Do I hang out with them? no.”
Exactly, hence the paragraph I suggest you reread.
…plus korea is an unaccompanied tour, no family for her to hang out with.
>>”Does that make me a spy? uh. no.”
Exactly, hence the paragraph I suggest you reread.
>>”Your analytical chain needs some work.”
Its not an analytical chain. It’s demonstrative.
>>”Besides, how professional of you to discuss someone’s personal life … toss a real name in there why don’t you and turn it into a case of libel.”
There is no name, its fine, and I’m not a proffesional anymore anyway.
>>”Your point is obtuse and farfetched… and quite honestly has no real bearing on the article at hand.”
You’ve convinced me you didn’t even grasp my point. Try reading again the part that says “ALL OF THIS[what I wrote] IS BESIDE THE POINT. . . THE POINT IS” I don’t think I could have made it any more obvious if I attached a siren and blinking red lights.
if you need the facts seperated here they are:
-A person had a degree from the University of Beijing (you pretty much have to be a Communist party member to get in to that)
-A person is a naturalized US citizen
-A person used to work for the FBI as a translator
-A person joined the US army, and got a Top Secret security clearance
-A person does not think there was anything wrong with the great leap forward
-A person refused to declare her loyalties in the event of a US China conflict.
These facts are real, and are circumstantial evidence. Which means nothing. However it betrays a method in which anyone, from a foreign nation, can gain a sensitive position in the United States intelligence infrastructure.
It’s your security. And I don’t feel like spelling out any more plainly for you.
This will be wrong the day China, North Korea and even South Korea allow white or black people full access to similar posts in China, North and South Korea.
I’m fairly liberal and would never have said this even 5 years ago but after the many instances of spying committed by such people I’ve changed my mind. I hope the many decent Chinese- or Korean-Americans understand that this may be necessary to help prevent the loss of secrets to the freedom-loving CPC and friends.
cptbbq,
maybe _I_ should spell out for you what I meant.
“Now every one of these facts is purely circumstancial. While my tone is biased the facts are true”
if something is circumstantial, then it is far from fact.
capeche?
mook, i heavily disagree with you. all the other countries you listed are homogenous countries, where as the US is a country based off of immigrants.
Not to mention the fact that just because China, et. all does X makes it OK for the U.S. to do it. Personally, I’d rather not look toward Beijing as a model to base government hiring practices.
Moreover, it behoves me to point out once again that I have no idea whether or not the report above is true. Assuming it is, and certain U.S. government departments have secretly determined not to hire Chinese and Korean-Americans to sensitive positions, how the hell would the reporter know? He didn’t cite a source in the entire piece, so it’s hard to tell.
And if it is true, certainly one has to be at least slightly disturbed by the fact that U.S. citizens—naturalized or otherwise—who pay U.S. taxes might be being denied certain positions owing to their ethnicity. Of course they should be subject to thorough security checks, as should anyone applying to sensitive positions, and yes, from what I understand, China leans on overseas Chinese to help the Fatherland, which means that, unfortunately, the government needs to be careful, but there’s a fine line between being prudent and outright racial discrimination and harassment.
That may be so, but it’s also partly due to the Asian-only policies regarding filling top posts in China and the Koreas. The facts regarding widespread industrial and military espionage remain. Many of these people are selling off the wests’, and America’s economic and military advantage.
After seeing the hatred many have for white and black America, and their unquestioning support for China’s military rise, occupation of Tibet, and own sense of racial superiority I don’t take it for granted any more that the vast majority of Chinese- and Korean-Americans have America’s best interests in mind. Sites like fighting44s.com can give you a taste of this.
Doggbert said>> ‘Does anyone doubt that the P.R.C. uses the “You’re Chinese, you must help China!” card in order to get intelligence? ‘
A Chinese citizen is more likely than a naturalized Chinese American who is more likely than a native born CA who is more likely than a white American to be put in jail for the same “stealing of state secrets” offense. In China Chinese-Americans, Chinese-Australians et. al. are simply called ‘Overseas Chinese’ (Huaqiao)–the implication being that they are abroad for a short time, but they’ll be back soon to help out their ‘motherland.’ (and I can’t stand the use of ‘motherland’.)
davelee>>’all the other countries you listed are homogenous countries, where as the US is a country based off of immigrants.’
when convenient, the Chinese government likes to tout its many ethnic minorities. But as said before, I’d like to see if there are an Uighurs in sensitive military positions.
How much of a security check can you do on a naturalized Chinese American? The Chinese government is going to hand over information that the person once worked in the Chinese military? No.
sure, when convenient they might say so, but that has nothing to do with the foundations of the country. i dont see any chinese government doctrine stating “all men are equal.”
bottom line is it doesnt matter if they claim to have minorities, they dont boast that they provide equality for the minorities.
They do boast about equality for minorities, but your point is correct–it is not part of the perceived foundation of the government etc.
Assuming the information in the article is true, it seems like the US government is just being lazy instead of doing anything substantial to plug its security holes. If intelligence agencies are resorting to racial profiling as opposed to actually doing any real shoring up of their security measures, then it’s only a matter of time until China and/or Korea (North or South) find a non-Asian agent they can buy off.
Random_guy,
Thank you very much for spelling out what you meant.
>>”if something is circumstantial, then it is far from fact.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....l_evidence
“Circumstantial evidence is the result of combining seemingly unrelated FACTS that, when considered together, can be used to infer a conclusion. ”
Now, perhaps I could have more correct and instead of “every one of these facts” said “these facts all together”… would that float your boat?
“all thanks to secretly taken measures by the Bush administration…”
I like these kinds of statements. Begs the question of how it became known to the author.
The administration doesn’t need any secret measures to make it difficult for naturalized citizens to obtain clearances. It’s difficult enough for small town white Americans to put up with the time delay for secret clearances let alone SCI clearances for anyone with experience living abroad. With over 500,000 clearances being investigated per year it just makes sense to investigate those whose backgrounds are more accessible. There is a limit to how much DSS will spend on any given clearance. Industrial clearances are a slightly different animal but they are much more restrictive in nature since parent agencies have less administrative/disciplinary control over conract workers. The more pressing problem I think is when an individual investigating agent isn’t able to gather enough information and simply takes a risk in approving the clearance. The agents do have the lion’s share of authority over what gets approved and what doesn’t.
IOW, the nature of investigations is prohibitive to people from a place like China or Korea. If it costs too much they’re just gonna deny the clearance. Perhaps Mr. Son Chung-mu favors affirmative action for clearances. Well, he’s gonna have to get used to disappointment.
belay my last, conract = contract
Back when I held a clearance, we had one guy who used to run off by himself at night. Turned out he wasn’t a spy, he was a fag (that’s also why he had so many soldiers calling our Navy barracks, while the rest of us had no Army friends at all). The same indicators can point to different conclusions.
a fanouk in the Navy? say its not so…that’ll keep u from getting a clearance (if u tell)
After Robert Kim got a hero’s welcome in South Korea, I decided, out of curiosity, to see if ethnic background was a factor in espionage cases. I don’t have stats, but I did notice that most of the big profile cases involved native-born men of European ancestry who sold out their country for money or sex. Four examples of white American men whose acts of treason did far more damage than Robert Kim are Edward Howard, Robert Hansson, and the Walker father and son duo. For a complete list of espionage cases from the last thirty years, click here: http://www.dss.mil/training/espionage/
Sonagi, white guys and Communists are out, Asians and the PRC are in.
You’ve got to keep up with the times
although, even then I’d be curious to see a Uighur scientist in a politically sensitive position in China.
Well, probably about as many as there are Mexican nuclear scientists in the US. For many of the same reasons, too.
Though China’s deputy head of the PLA Airforce is an ethnic Korean (Li Yongtai) — he was born in a Korean-dominated village in Jilin, IIRC. Though the US has Eric Shinseki, Colin Powell, etc. Hell, the US even had Brigadier-General Eisenhower during WWII.
And of course, the US is ahead in terms of pure foreign-born members of government and the military … though China does have a few Russian NPC delegates.
I know. This was at the height of the Clinton-era “gays in the military” hullaballoo. Strangely, even though we all knew this kid was a homosexual, the world didn’t come crashing down.
At any rate, with respect to the security-clearance issue, Chinese-Americans and Korean-Americans are disadvantaged by factors other than just “skin color”. It’s fun to claim racism around every corner, sure, but the truth is that social factors are also at play. Security clearances require the US government to “vet” the background of the person being granted the clearance — Korea, especially, is a society opaque to the usual means of gathering information.
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