A couple of (witty) comments over at Coming Anarchy draw attention to an apparent difference in the respective expat communities in Korea and Japan (or at least the blogging expat community).
First, from Sonagi:
First, the post about the kinder, gentler face of Japanese colonialism and now this glowing piece about the Japanese dream. What is it about you Westerners in Japan? Is there a Stepford-wife type factory somewhere on the outskirts of Tokyo, where kidnapped foreign nationals are exchanged for Japanophilebots?
Not too many ‘Stepford wives’ in Korea or China, that’s for sure!
To be followed by Jing’s observation:
I second Sonagi’s hypothesis that some expats are being kidnapped and being substituted with androids whose prime directive seems to culled from LDP talking points. tinfoil beanie
At the risk of seriously over-generalizing, it really does seem at times that Western expats in Japan are, by-and-large, much more “into” their host nation than are Western expats in Korea. Much of it, I’d have to assume, is political—it’s been hard, at least as an American, to line up behind the Roh administration and the ruling Uri Party, especially on key foreign policy issues like North Korea and the Korea-U.S. alliance. I could certainly see how Westerners, or at least Americans of a conservative bend, might find Koizumi’s vision much more palatable.
But there’s more to it than politics. Are expat forums in Japan full of the same kind of non-stop bitching about the host nation’s society and culture as they are in Korea? Do you see the same kind of derision leveled at J-pop and J-dramas as you see leveled at K-pop and K-dramas? I, for one, don’t see it. If anything, I’m impressed by the number of Westerners who are willing to serve almost as honorary ambassadors for Japan, promoting Japanese arts and culture in their homelands. Japan—it’s cool. It’s got anime. And cute little trees. And beautiful gardens. Korea? It’s got ugly cities. Populated by girly men and rude, xenophobic ajeossi’s. Who drink a lot. And puke on the sidewalks. And beat their wives when they come home from the red-light district. But at least its got beautiful women.
Or so you might think from reading expat forums, blogs and websites from the respective countries.
Surely, you Japan bloggers must notice this difference in attitudes as well. And I have to wonder how much of this is Japan simply doing a better job promoting itself and “handling” its foreigners, and how much of it is simply the Korean proclivity toward uber-pessimism and not-entirely-cathartic bitching about Korea rubbing off on its expat population. Or perhaps it’s simply a difference in the expat communities themselves.
49 Comments
Well, I am not an avid reader of the ex-pat Japanese blogs, but I’ve noticed that simular difference exists between Russian blogs in China and in Korea. Russian bloggers in Korea tend to be more critical (remarkably so), even hostile to an extent, towards Korea while those in China are very positive and often simply associate themselves with China, Chinese and even Chinese politics completely. Of course, Chinese-Russian blog-community is large, hundreds of people, many of whom are fluent Chinese speakers and intend to stay in China indefinitely, while blog-community in Korea is small and changing. Still, remarkable difference, and it was not only me who notices this.
Umm, not every expat in Japan looks at that country with an unjaundiced eye (no weird pun intended):
http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/
Mr. Lankov, maybe the Russians are annoyed with Koreans because classically trained Russian musicians who can’t get jobs at home have to work in shitty hotel lounges and the women are all thought to be hookers in Korea….
QUOTE because classically trained Russian musicians who can’t get jobs at home have to work in shitty hotel lounges and the women are all thought to be hookers in Korea END OF QUOTE
Far more complicated, but true in one regard. I think it has a lot to do with the composition of the two ex-pat commuinities, their reasons to be (t)here. An attitude of the locals also might play a role, but the composition is more important.
Do you mean that the Russian expats are more from technical and professional backgrounds than ones from other countries?
Do expats in Japan go as far as wearing yukatas when they’re out and about?
They would if yukatas were as stylish as hanboks.
The fit is flattering to a fuller figure, true, but you need to branch out from the basic grey now and again.
Will take up the matter with my fashion consultant.
I do not know much about the Japanese media, but they seem to be much more objective than the Korean media, which is what pisses me off most about Korea. Also, the Japanese do not seem to brag as much as the Koreans do or blame others for their mistakes as much.
One other thing is that Japanese society seems more settled and stable than Korean society, which seems to be much more bipolar. What that means is that if you like Japanese society now, you will probably still like it five years from now since it will essentially be unchanged. Korean society, on the other hand, always seems to be switching back and forth between extremes. This last election is a good example of that. One year Koreans will hate you and the next they will love you.
I think many foreigners in Korea just get tired of all the hypocrisy, the bragging, and the mood swings.
Plausible reasons:
1.Japanese ex-pat community has a longer history in Japan and hence they might tend to ignore its oddities.
2.English teachers in Korea, which makes up the majority of the blog population, tend to see this as an opportunity to make some money and not as a career and hence doesn’t like to integrate into the society.
3.Japanese girls are real easy that if offsets any negative happenings to them in Japan.
4.Japan won the World baseball classic and they have Godzilla.
Having lived in both Japan and Korea, I can say that most expats living in Japan (myself included) have a much more favorable view of Japanese society as a whole than the expats living in Korea do for the Koreans.
I’m generalizing here, but the bottom line is Japan is a much more enlightened society more open minded to foreigners with a variety of cultural activities, international cuisines and entertainment that doesn’t require binge drinking. Japanese are also generally less xenophobic, hot-headed, melodramatic and intellectually backwards than their Korean cousins. In addition, Japan does have more than one architect in their country so there is a variety of buildings and architectural style that is more aesthetically pleasing. Every Korean city looks the same; drab and boring with identical high rise apartment buildings. There is no difference between Gumi, Pohang, Mokpo, Ulsan, Daejon, Daegu, etc. It all looks the same. Koreans are also generally rude and ill mannered whereas Japanese are inherently polite.
The combination of these factors leaves the expats living in Japan more content with their surroundings, quality of life, entertainment options and the locals themselves. When I’m in Japan I just feel better about things as a whole. When I return to Korea, I can feel the stress and aggravation build up again. Don’t even get me started on the differences in driving habits.
In short, it’s my unbiased opinion that its Korean society itself which causes the general discontentment of the expats living here. I’ve traveled to many countries both in and outside of Asia and I’ve never seen anywhere that breeds a feeling of disenchantment on the foreign community the way Korea does. There will be some suck-ups to Korea that disagree (and there are exceptions to every rule) but EVERY SINGLE ONE of the expats I know that travel and live between Korea and Japan feel exactly this way. Japan is by no means perfect, but it’s definitely a better place for expats to live and work. This is why you don’t hear as much griping about Japan.
Isn’t this a bit like wondering why Kia owners tend to bitch and moan so much more than Lexus owners? It’s pretty self-evident to anyone that’s owned both.
One’s expensive, reliable, well-made, and an overall joy to own and drive.
The other is poorly designed, cheap, prone to breakdowns, unpredictable, and a general pain in the ass.
I’ll let you decide which is which.
Yeah but Renault Samsungs have Nissan (aka Lexus) powertrains.
Michael,
In a nutshell: Russians in Korea overwhelmingly come for a short, few years stay, with Russian wives of the Korean being the only exception (but they are not very prominent online). Actually, there is no “Russian community” in Korea, but a number of almost unconnected communities: scientists and engineers, big business and diplomats, small business, semi-skilled workers, wives, prostitutes do not mix well, as you might guess. Russian community in China is much more unifrom: academics and small- to middle-size businesses, plus some employees. But the Russians in China come there to stay, they always learn language,and they are more accepted. If they do not like China, they just move out. Not many jobs where one would bitch ablut China but still stays because money is soooo good. I also have a feeling (sorry for generalization) that Chinese: a) more ready to accept a “big nose”; b) less despiceful towards Russians who are often seen in Korea as people from yet another poor nation.
Another world indeed–thanks for the background Mr. Lankov.
I think Mr. Lankov was really onto something with his comments on how each country draws different types of foreigners. The English teachers I have known in Japan have had opinions much more similar to the bitchy English teachers in Korea. But overall, Japan attracts a lot of people who studied Japanese in university (or wherever), people who want to learn more about the place on its own terms. Similarly, I have found those who came to Korea after studying Korean in university and who were interested in the place ahead of time tend to be much more into Korea than those who came here for more negative or commercial reasons.
Travellers are also a lot more demanding these days than, say, in the 1970s. Friends of mine who lived in Tokyo in the 1980s all seem to find Seoul these days reminds them of Tokyo 20 years ago or so (and enjoy Seoul for that reason).
I’m rather amused by Maekchu’s “unbiased” opinions:
> I’m generalizing here, but the bottom line is Japan is a much more
> enlightened society more open minded to foreigners with a variety
> of cultural activities, international cuisines and entertainment that doesn’t
> require binge drinking. Japanese are also generally less xenophobic,
> hot-headed, melodramatic and intellectually backwards than their Korean
> cousins. In addition, Japan does have more than one architect in their country
> so there is a variety of buildings and architectural style that is more
> aesthetically pleasing.
Less xenophobic? I have found getting a visa much easier in Korea than my friends have found it in Japan. I’ve never had a landlord in Korea tell me he does not take foreigners, where that seems to be so common in Japan that it is unremarkable. And only one of the two countries is working on fingerprinting every single person who enters the country. (Note: I am not saying Korea is not xenophobic. I think it is greatly so. But Japan gives Korea a good run for the money in that department… and sometimes wins).
Cultural activities? There are plenty of places in Korea where one can learn painting, music, etc., but for some reason, Korea’s traditional arts have not captured the Western imagination as much as Japan’s traditions have. There are plenty of live music bars… which rarely have much of a foreign presence. I have known many foreigners who have tried to get some activity or another started in Seoul or wherever in Korea, and routinely been met with complete apathy.
Drinking? The Japanese people I know certainly know how to drink… not sure if that is a statistically significant survey, though. According to Nationmaster.com, Koreans put down 9.3 liters/person annually (#16 overall), vs. 7.6 liters/person in Japan (#25). (Neither of which seems right to me, but what do I know).
According to the WHO, Korea and Japan’s alcohol consumption is nearly the same (and, surprisingly, it was not long ago that Koreans drank very little):
http://www3.who.int/whosis/alc.....ge=english
International cuisine? These days, without a doubt Japan has much more. But my friends who lived in Japan in the 1980s or earlier definitely felt otherwise, and yet that did not make them go all uber-bitch. And Korea has far, far more than it did just a few years ago.
Architecture? Japan has some funky buildings (especially these days). But Japan also has a concrete obsession that has blighted the landscape around the country.
Hot-headed and melodramatic? No real argument there.
Which leads into one of the biggest differences (imho)… people in Japan don’t get into your face. No one talks to you about Jesus on the subways. There is a lot more emotional distance in Japan, which can be most refreshing (especially to cold fish like me).
But that emotional difference alone is not enough to explain the huge difference in perceptions. Which leads me back to my previous post (and Lankov again). I think the biggest difference between the two countries in how they are perceived by foreigners in large part comes from the foreigners each country attracts.
Finally (sorry for being the dork with the too-long post), Japan has had money for much longer than Korea has. And old money is usually much quieter and more reflective than new money. As time marches on, I find Korea moving in the same basic direction as Japan.
It seems like Korea has been inhospitable toward foreigners in recent history with the dictatorships and all-consuming inward-directed uri nara while Japan has been the more accessible face of Asia.
Haisan you’re right about the “old money” analogy, Koreans are definitely like the Beverly Hillbillies sometimes when it comes to conspicuous consumption.
I agree with just about everything Haisan mentioned however interestingly enough my brother and his wife hated living in Japan whereas I’ve been in Korea for a few years now and never can seem to answer the question “When will you go back to the U.S.?”
Having said that, I could probably live in Japan just as long and enjoy my time there too. It certainly is a fun place to visit, that’s for sure…
Don’t know much about Japan, but a friend who’s lived in both places commented, “Japan is much more livable, but unaffordable. You can’t have it both ways.”
I think a lot of the criticisms of Korea are justified. Yes, people spit and can be aggressive. Yes, there is terrible corruption. Yes, many women are treated very poorly indeed. And Japan’s modern culture, at least from my limited experience, is far more sophisticated and diverse than Korea’s.
The problem with much of the criticism, in my opinion, is one of perspective. On many occasions, the slightest incident is taken as indicative of some deep underlying sickness in Korean society. Coming from Europe, I see this same mindset applied to the States all the time. If the likes of Pat Robertson says something about America having God on its side, this becomes proof positive that all Americans are simplistic, bible-bashing hicks. I’ve been to the States many times and have many American friends and so I know how untrue this representation is.
The other thing, vis-a-vis Japan, is that Japan really seems to bewitch its proponents to the extent that they believe it can do, and never has done, any wrong. I know that many of the pro-Japan crowd can produce some very convincing-sounding evidence of why, for example, the comfort women policy was not systematic. But if you want to believe something badly enough, you can always find evidence to fit your argument. Just ask Bruce Cumings.
The thing with Koreans is that they will not allow you to sit on the fence. No Japanese person has ever demanded that I agree with them that Takeshima/Dokdo is Japanese territory when all you want to do is have a drink enjoy yourself without discussing politics. It is Koreans themselves that polarize the opinions of foreigners.
Baddabum!
Having lived in Korea for some number of years (2001-05) and now having spent the last year in the boondocks of Japan I can honestly say that Japan is far more conducive to foreigners…on the surface. It offers many things that look and act somewhat western and are familiar (rough adherence to traffic laws, orderly stable and clean streets) with many amenities that are just not available in even Seoul. As other have mentioned architecture, food, entertainment (how many acts came to Korea in three plus years?? Japan has bands galore come through numerous cities – such as the Pixies), and many other things are more plentiful, varied and available in Japan.
Korea, and especially Seoul, is much more in your face and demands and begs you to love it. Japan offers a more laid back, not trying to prove anything to anyone, ideal; in a word it is more confident. This has much to do with history and how Korea has had to escape from the shadow of its neighbors and, I think, is why it is always trying to prove itself in anything and everything on the international stage. (Which is something that many others, myself included, get so annoyed with in the Korean media)
However Japan is below the surface still a very insular state. As another mentioned above rental agencies and landlords will shoo you out the door before you even get in if you are gaijin. Pubs and restaurants will refuse service to gaijin without even batting an eye. Yet for all that there is a greater diversity and variety to Japanese society, which is lacking often in Korean society. This variety will allow a greater number of folks to find something that they can relate or like (myself, I love the castles, Osaka’s skyline, and the temples in Kyoto, but then I also have a distinct fondness for Cheondokgung and the other palaces in Seoul).
All that said Korea is a very interesting and lively place – even with all of its ‘idiosyncrasies.’ Korea has a looser more ‘seat of your pants feel’, which can be quite fun and exciting and endear itself to you quite easily (from trivial things like bargaining in markets to eating and drinking away the night outside a chicken hof or 7-11). The thing to remember though is that neither is exactly (or anything at all) like where we came from (speaking for expats).
(additionally “howdy” as this is my first time posting on the site, though I have long read it and generally find it to have a good deal of insight and appreciate the links to all the ‘wonk’ stuff that are provided from time to time…Cheers!)
Warning, super long comment. Skip to the bold at the end for the short version:
Wow, over 20 comments in only a few hours, there certainly are a lot of people who have thought about this topic before and came with their thoughts prepared.
I never understood the “Stepford-Wives” logic as used against any non-Japanese residing in or somehow connected to Japan to say they are incapable of seeing the truth and therefore do not disagree with Japan on a certain issue, especially when it comes from someone residing in Korea or China and that certain issue also involves Korea or China.
There is no training program or anything we go through while in Japan, however I get the impression that those who study Japan/Japanese in America go through a self-brainwashing program to love anything and everything anime (I can not vouch for this as I’ve never studied Japan/Japanese in America.) There has to be another reason to explain why foreigners in Japan do not have as many negative feelings for their host country as foreigners in Korea do.
Whoops, sorry, I forgot to close the first quote
Sorry.
Dogbertt - there is at least one expat in Japan who wanders around in local clothing - http://www.hurusato.net/m/ojisanjake/hikes.htm - although it looks to me more like a Jinbe than a Yukata
Korea’s always been right in between China and Japan, in more ways than one. If you are getting tired of Korea and feel that it’s too dirty, rude, corrupt, unfriendly, incompetent, self-obsessed, whatever — just go take a vacation in China for awhile, and when you come back Korea will look like a paradise to you. Conversely, spend some good time in Japan, and on your return Korea will be disappointing…
As development keeps on rolling, maybe someday this will be different. People are right to note the tremendous progress the Korea has already made in correcting most of its problems and becoming much more livable that it was in the past. They are certainly aware of the issues and working on all of them in some way, however slowly. Anyone who once experienced the air-pollution in Seoul etc in the 1970s or early 80s, especially in the winter, and then takes a good breath downtown today really knows the difference, and can tell you about the progress that’s been achieved. And, how about the public restrooms in train and metro stations? Such a world of improvement…
To add my piece on how the ‘average’ foreigner experiences East Asia, and apologies for in part repeating points made elsewhere:
- Japan is clean, tidy, charming, well-organised and ‘restrained’. The Japanese themselves do not impose themselves on foreigners (or indeed on each other), and are happy to have foreigners amongst them as long as they do not get in the way of the Japanese system. At the same time, Japan itself is well-established as an exotic destination about which most people have some kind of (generally positive) pre-conception. Thus the foreign visitor can, relatively peacefully, have his own private happy exotic experience, without the realities of the actual Japan marching in and demanding he pay attention.
- China, in contrast, is polluted, messy, and in most places, nothing much to look at. It forces itself on the visitor, who has no choice but to throw themselves into the crowds, ride the roads, and actually _interact_ with China and the Chinese. However, life for the foreign resident in China is in most cases pretty easy - money goes a long way, food is relatively compatible with the Western palate, and work (whatever kind) is not *particularly* demanding.
I see elements of Korea in both of the above, and from this I’m trying to figure out why Korea rates as a worse place to live as a foreigner, when compared to China and Japan. I would suggest the two main features would be that Korea and Koreans are ‘unrestrained’, i.e. in your face, demanding respect, interaction, full participation - unlike Japan, whilst at the same time, work is usually long and hard (unlike China).
I myself work in a large multinational in Korea. We have almost 20 foreign staff. The vast majority are very content here. This is certainly not something which could be said 10, or even 5 years ago. There’s more international food, and heck, at least some of the cars are painted in colours other than white, grey or black…
it ain’t politics-it’s development.
I can’t compare living in Korea and Japan as I have no experience living in either(a couple of transfers through Narita probably don’t count)however I can speak on the differences I have observed among the grandly titled blogosphere.
Again, I’ll second and third some of the other comments about Japan attracting a different sort of crowd, particularly among bloggers and I’ll give my theory as to why.
Japan’s mind share in the western imagination has always been the ultimate manifestation of the Orient. Forgive me for channeling Said for a moment, but Japan’s role always been that of an antipodal “other” in mainstream western consciousness, yet it’s economic development makes it at the same time familiar. This leads to a particular sort of orientalism that is simultaneously patronizing yet reverent though that is not to say this is unique to Japan. The British back when they were still wearing jodhpurs and pith helmets would have simply called this phenomenon “going native”.
Anyways, the Japanese political establishment, has promoted this perception to the hilt in it’s own way. Back during the late Meiji, Taisho, and into the Showa era, Japan has promoted to its own citizens a unique sense of exceptionalism (even beyond the ken of most nationalist exceptionalism) in order to counteract what the reactionaries perceived as creeping westernization and the materialization of Japanese society. This has created a self-perpetuating cycle where the Japanese conservative establishment and Western Japan observers feed off of and reinforce one another.
Several historians have tangentially observed this effect (Dower, and Bix) when they noted the attitudes of Japan “experts” towards the reconstruction of Japan in the post-war era. Essentially they were reactionaries who saw Japan through a static cultural prism and believed liberal democracy unsuitable for Japan, a view echoed by Japan’s own conservatives.
Even today, this ideological veil has yet to be completely pierced and thus Japan still tends to attract the same sort of exoticists.
I can’t speak with any authority on expats in Korea, but there is an observable difference between the expats in China and Japan. China-centric Asianists, then as now, tend to be heavily political and the topics of many China blogs invariably revolve around politics, society, and the economy. Japan-centric Asianists are often not heavily political, focusing more on obscure cultural highlights of Japan or pop-culture (A sort of exoticist infatuation an example of which are the Anime fans who are legion. ugh)yet when they are political, they are consistantly pro-LDP. Compared to the much more diverse range of opinions in regards to China.
sanshinseon said:
If you are getting tired of Korea and feel that it’s too dirty, rude, corrupt, unfriendly, incompetent, self-obsessed, whatever — just go take a vacation in China for awhile, and when you come back Korea will look like a paradise to you.
Having lived for nearly 2 and a half years in a moderately-developed Chinese city of significant size, only some of these characterizations are true. Yes, China is dirty and corrupt, and workers are often incompetent and must be watched constantly to ensure they’re actually doing a job.
On the other hand, Chinese are nowhere near as self-obsessed with “Chineseness” as Koreans are with “Koreanness.” Most of my Korean friends here in China will insist on going to eat at Korean restaurants, shopping at Korean stores, buying Korean cell phones, and so on. Contrast this to Chinese, whose commercial nationalism, when it emerges, is more typically directed outward (anti-Japan), and almost never manifests as self-love. Chinese buy the best product they can afford and don’t make a huge fuss about it “being Chinese.” Chinese and Koreans are equal in one respect, though: give them a chance and you’ll get to hear about 5,000 years of self-pity, as if they’re in a no-holds-barred competition to become the “Irish of Asia.”
As for rude or unfriendly, well, that’s an eye-of-the-beholder thing. There are different manifestations of friendliness. Chinese refuse to queue well, and the less educated stare a lot and say “hello” behind your ear all the time. On the other hand, Chinese never bring up Senkaku/Diaoyutai to me while Korean nationals in the two “Koreatowns” in my city have mentioned Dokdo/Takeshima. And do we even need to compare how Chinese and Koreans react to foreigners dating “their women”?
Moving on, what Lankov says about Russians in China is interesting to me, and it confirms a general feeling I’ve had. I suppose Korea is the same way in its Russian expat makeup, but for the uninitiated, the Russians here come in two varieties — the good Russians, who are little different from other European expats and are interested in learning Chinese and building business connections, and the bad ones, who all seem to hail from Vladivostok and are involved in a myriad of nefarious enterprises. Yet both the good Russians and the bad ones seem to enjoy their lives here and don’t bitch nearly as much as, say, the Americans or the expats from the Commonwealth countries.
And do we even need to compare how Chinese and Koreans react to foreigners dating “their women”?
Reactions from Koreans to the idea:
- “You must be bedding a lot of Korean women with that language ability of yours.”
- “You have tried a Korean woman, haven’t you?”
- “You must marry a Korean woman, they make good wives.”
Not a single negative comment from people who never hesitated to advise me how I should live my life.
Now, how are the Chinese? Following you, I guess they must abhor the idea.
The truth of the matter is it’s all in the expats.
Japan: Expats highly motivated by culture, money, opportunities to increase skills, or pussy with piss poor internet thus less chance to vent online. Basically, people more mentally able to handle the culture difference.
Korea: Expats highly motivated by continuing the university party, paying off loans, or free rent with far too much internet to vent with. Basically people who shouldn’t have been allowed to travel outside of the trailer park.
They just get a better class of loser there than we do here.
I’d like to retract my previous statement comparing the Kia and the Lexus. THE bilbo g has it pegged.
There is absolutely no qualitative difference between a Kia and a Lexus, or between Korea and Japan. The truth of the matter is it’s all in the driver. Or the expat. Throw a redneck in a Lexus and it performs like a Kia. Put a professor in a Kia and it magically runs like a Lexus.
You learn something new every day.
This entry reminds me of what I was told about ex-pats in Japan and Korea.
Classy, cultured, educated, or good ones go to Japan, but others (who couldn’t get job in Japan) come to Korea. Losers love to complain…
Hope it’s not true.
June’s entry reminds me of what I was told about Mongoloids from 7000 BC.
Classy, cultured, educated, or good ones went to Japan, but others (who couldn’t get into Japan) came to Korea. Losers love to complain…
Hope it’s not true.
Honestly blueballs, do you have a better retort than “I know you are but what am I?”
Honestly Jing, are you not able to recognize how ridiculous June’s statement is and how easily it can be flipped to apply to Koreans as it was to expats.
Of course there are some loser expats in Korea, just as there are in Japan, and China, and every other country on earth. The expats in Korea are not causing the inherent problems. They’re reacting to them.
I don’t really think the “different classes of expat” theory holds water, when there is a control group readily available, US military members. I’m in the USAF, I just returned home from Korea,and whenever I compare notes with people who’ve returned home from Japan, they seem to have had a far more favorable experience than I. They have no stories of being jumped by roving packs of random drunken japanese men, or getting “special foriegner prices” on goods when japanese people were receiving another, lower price. In the airport in Japan, I went 4 hours without catching a hockey style shoulder check… I don’t think I could accomplish 4 minutes of that in Incheon international.
The young men who went to Japan have nothing but stories of people being mostly decent and kind, if not slightly detached. We all have similar lifestyles and levels of education, but vastly different evaluations of the places we were. The two nations quite simply present different faces to foreigners, and the one Korea shows is, by many western standards, rather nasty.
This is an interesting topic.
As said by other poster, I think it really has to do with the length of westernization/modernization. And the fact that Korea is in between China and Japan, it’s almost impossible to avoid comparison between the two countries. I guess that’s what happens when you’re a small country.
Also, I think that for Western travelers/visitors, coming from a culture that’s more like “minding your own business” and going to a Eastern culture that’s also has a “minding your own business” mentality, to not have that in your face attitude might make the Western traveler easier to deal with/stay in Japan. I don’t think I made any sense here. I also agree with the explanation of the type of people that attract Japan or Korea.
In the end, though, aren’t expats an unusual bunch to begin with? LOL.
This topic is a little odd to me considering as I said above that plenty of bitching and moaning is heard from expats in Japan–check out f*ckedgaijin or the Japan Today forum for instance. Just because you don’t know about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
That said, some of us here are just as critical, if not moreso, of our home countries as we are of Korea, and while we occasionally have praise for aspects of life in Korea, we maybe come off as the Angry Expat Commentariat because it’s just more satisfying to vent once in a while. I’m not referring to anyone in particular except me.
Highting!
Pedantic but…
Thorin said “Yeah but Renault Samsungs have Nissan (aka Lexus) powertrains.”
Lexus = Toyota, innit?
Not the first time I have heard that Japanese girls are easy but I think we have some Lotharios on the blog that could vouch for our local sweeties ease of access.
This thread is actually pretty civilized considering the topic. A few points I’d like to respond to:
Lankov: “But the Russians in China come there to stay, they always learn language,and they are more accepted. If they do not like China, they just move out. Not many jobs where one would bitch ablut China but still stays because money is soooo good. I also have a feeling (sorry for generalization) that Chinese: a) more ready to accept a “big nose”; b) less despiceful towards Russians who are often seen in Korea as people from yet another poor nation.”
As a former expat in Korea and China, I’d agree. Salaries in China are much lower, and most of the foreigners there, regardless of nationality, want to be there. Moreover, the PRC has encourage foreign students to come to Beijing; some of these students stay on, just as many foreign students remain in English-speaking countries. Fluent in Chinese, these foreign residents are able to integrate into Chinese society and coming from poor countries, they do not look down on China.
China, a country which celebrates its ethnic and lingustic diversity, is more tolerant of foreigners than homogenenous Korea. This includes foreigners speaking the local language and dating locals. In Korea, the dating game heavily favors Western men, but in China, the playing field is much more leveled. Chinese parents are more willing to accept their child dating or marrying a foreigner. Chinese men don’t seem to “cockblock” like Korean men.
In China, I actually had Chinese acquaintances who were willing to socialize with me in the Chinese language. In Korea, all of the Koreans who befriended me or invited me out socially were looking for “English friends.” A Zimbabwean national who earned a PhD at SNU told me that his fellow African nationals, all of whom were graduate students fluent in Korean, had an easier time making Korean friends if they spoke English.
Unlike the Chinese, who are sincerely interested in learning more about other countries and cultures through friendships, Koreans pretty much think the only good foreigner is an English-speaking one, and a group of students told me so.
Me: As a college student, I lived in an international dorm and had friends from Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Germany, Pakistan, Ethiopia, Lebanon, and so many other countries.
Students: Wow, that’s great!
Me: I wish more foreigners from Africa, Latin America, and other non-Western countries would come to Korea.
Students: (looking puzzled) Why?
Me: So you could make friends with people from around the world.
Students: But teacher, we want only English-speaking foreigners to come to Korea.
I have never lived in Japan, but my perceptions of the country as a visitor and through conversations with former Japan expats in Korea, it seems that Japan is like China in terms expat integration. The Japanese expect foreigners to learn the language and customs, and foreigners, in turn, meet that expectation. I think this is a BIG difference and explains why foreigners in Japan aren’t so negative.
@ Jing and iheartblueballs: I thought iheart’s retort was clever. June actually has a point that Japan, with its higher salaries and standard of living, can be choosier, but it’s unfair to tar all foreign nationals in Korea with the same brush. Iheart hit the nail on the head again with the driver/car analogy. However, I have to disagree with this: The expats in Korea are not causing the inherent problems. They’re reacting to them”. I don’t think expats are blameless. There are some foreigners in Korea who don’t belong overseas, and that opinion is shared by other former Japan expats in Korea. Like you said, it isn’t the car, it’s the driver, and the driver in your analogy could be Korean or foreign.
Mantaray: “Korea, and especially Seoul, is much more in your face and demands and begs you to love it. Japan offers a more laid back, not trying to prove anything to anyone, ideal; in a word it is more confident. This has much to do with history and how Korea has had to escape from the shadow of its neighbors and, I think, is why it is always trying to prove itself in anything and everything on the international stage”
Well said, Mantaray. It seems that expats with experience in more than one Asian country have more profound insights into differences.
As a guy who’s lived in both places, I’d like to make a few comments:
1. If I can get my business into the multiple six-figures, I’ll move to Tokyo. It’s probably the coolest city on earth but you need CASH (not credit cards, BTW) to experience it properly. I was reminded of this last week after a two-year absence. There are simply way more cool bars, restaurants, bands, festivals, etc. over there. Japanese microbrew is far, far superior to the swill you can find near Kangnam Station. When the Japanese do something, they do it right, not half-assed like here.
2. There is plenty of expat moaning going on at sites like Japan Today. There may be a higher percentage of foreigners who are unreserved Japanophiles, but there are plenty (like me) who can see the bad and the good.
3. The detachment of the Japanese can get annoying pretty quickly. I’ve found it easier to do business in Korea since I can read the counterparties’ faces.
4. Japan has way too much concrete, even on the sides of mountains, for chrissakes. And they have the counterproductive sunshine law which forces everyone to live in a cramped environment. Korea, for all its ugly communist-style apartment blocks, still uses vertical space much more wisely than Japan does.
5. As I mentioned before (and others above), Japanese landlords discriminate big-time against foreigners. This is a fairly big issue for the middling expat not on the uber-package for the big MNC.
6. When it comes to nationalism, foreign relations and such, the Japanese simply come across as adults and the Koreans as children. Japanese media shows stupid-Korean tricks all the time. I wouldn’t be surprised if TV Asahi showed Koreans shouting “Daehanminguk” during the Ghanian national anthem.
There may well be something to the idea that ease of internet access may be a key factor in why there at least appears to be more b*tching in the Korean expat community . . . anyone who has a confruntation with their boss or coworker or significant other or even a random other in Korea can be in a PCbang in ten seconds and post a rant where the whole world can see. In Japan, it’s a much more difficult and expensive prospect, so there’s time to cool off a bit. A friend who went to Japan at the same time I moved to Korea had a miserable time there, feeling discouraged, lonely, and isolated, but she had no internet access at home and little time to write anything at work. In the meantime I was perpetually busy and happy, but anytime I got annoyed with anything I could sit down at my own computer at work, my computer at home, or stop in any PC bang in between and let everyone know whatever strange thing had just happened.
As for Japanaphiles, well, most of them already were completely infatuated before they got there. Even people who hadn’t joined the anime and kendo teams at their university back home had at least some images of Japan, and most of them positive even if it’s derived from idiotic fare like Last Samurai or Memoirs of a Geisha. Now, what do most people going to Korea know about it before they go . . .? Um, well, probably that there’s some kindof freaky dictator to the North (or is it South?) who is gonna blow the whole place up someday . . . and maybe a little word cup chanting. Then they look online or they arrive and are bombarded on all sides with gripes about this and that. No self-fufilling prophecies there, oh no.
But having lots of Japanaphiles also means lots of people who already speak Japanese when they head over there. Let’s face it, not that many expats in Korea can claim that much knowledge of Korean (although there are certainly exceptions) and it’s much, MUCH easier to be frustrated and annoyed when you can’t communicate with the locals.
And while the raging English fever can be annoying, just make friends with people who don’t speak any English. If they don’t know any they can’t force you to speak any ^^
“And while the raging English fever can be annoying, just make friends with people who don’t speak any English. If they don’t know any they can’t force you to speak any “
Easier said than done. While in Korea, I invited non-English speaking Korean acquaintances to share meals and go on outings. My first invitation was usually accepted, but no friendship ever evolved. On the other hand, English-speaking Koreans would either make the first invitation or reciprocate. I am the same person with the same personality and interests regardless of what language I speak, yet I had little success cultivating social relationships in the Korean language. Based on my experience and the experience of other expats, I would say that Chinese and Japanese are more willing to befriend foreigners using their native language than Koreans are.
The problem is circular, and monolingual expats and English-loving Koreans enable each other.
I do agree that Westerners arrive in Japan with positive impressions of the country. As I said before, most Westerners in Japan and China chose those countries in part because of a positive interest in the language and culture. The same cannot be said for Western expats in Korea. I lived in Korea for almost a decade, developing a deep appreciation for the country, the people, and the language, but what brought me to Korea was merely a job offer and a desire to live in a foreign country, not any specific interest in Korea itself.
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