Well, this doesn’t look good
NoCut News is reporting that U.S. soldiers pointed their M-16s into the chests of two farmers who had the temerity to ask the soldiers, who were on a training exercise, to clear the road so that they could water their fields.
The two farmers, a 50-year-old Mr. Hong and 50-year-old Mr. Ahn, wanted to water their fields at 6:00 a.m. Saturday morning when they found the farm road, which apparently forms the entrance to the ROK Army training grounds at Mujin-ni, Jeokseong-myeon, Paju-si, blocked by the 4-7 Calvary of the U.S. 2nd Infantry Division, which was in the middle of a training exercise. The farmers reportedly asked the unit to clear the road so they could proceed with watering their fields.
When there was no response, the two farmers again asked the Americans to get off the road. This time, they said, two American sergeants came up to them and threatened them by pointing their M-16s at their chests and pretending to pull the triggers.
Hong said, “If there had been ammo in the M-16 and he’d really fired, we’d both be dead.” After the incident, the soldiers got back in their vehicle and drove to the training ground, but some 10 villagers who’d heard what happened followed after them for about 2 kilometers, demanding an apology.
As the demands for an apology grew louder, someone from USFK issued a verbal apology through the mediation of Paju police.
Villagers point out, however, that a similar incident occurred in 2002, which was followed by nothing more than a perfunctory verbal apology, and now they want a written apology. As of Sunday, USFK had yet to accept their demands.
An official from a civic group trying to shut down the training grounds said that until a written apology is made, they would ring the training ground with protesters so that military vehicles could not enter.
As of the writing of this post, the piece was the second-most viewed at Naver.com and so far has gathered 925 comments (although just a quick glance indicated they’re not all as sanguine as you might expect). I’d be really keen to know what the hell happened up there, so if you’re based in Paju and privy to more information than I can obtain from what I read, my comments section is open.
40 Comments
I could believe it if they were talking about a couple of privates but I kind of doubt that NCOs would pull that kind of stunt. I would certainly welcome a correction by any 2ID guys on that.
They were identified as hasa, or staff sergeants. Or at least according to the piece, which I assume is based on the testimony of the farmers. Which I guess would be pretty impressive on their part that they ID’d the rank right away.
You’d better get to work on translating those 925 comments.
Thirteen minutes later it’s 1254 comments and counting…
If you give respect, you shall receive respect. When someone has an M-16 pointed at you, it doesn’t hardly matter if they’re a private or a general, you had damn well better listen to what they say to do and be quick about it.
Please post the address or website of this “civic group”, I’d like to write them “a strongly-worded Memorial Day special type of apology” for screwing with people busting their asses to defend their freedom.
Lesson of the story: don’t mess with the military and get your ass out of their way. It doesn’t hardly matter if it’s a Korean, an American, or any ally, you had damn well better give them the respect they have earned and absolutely deserve if you want respect in return from them.
sounds like a setup to me. on the one hand, the standard response to unknown person approaching you is to raise your weapon and voice a challenge.
my question is where was the katusa?
First, I doubt the farmers were speaking English, and I doubt the soldiers were able to understand Korean. More than likely thought they were a couple of bums hollering at them over God knows what. And it’s also possible the farmers didn’t ask in the most polite way possible. Misunderstandings all around.
Second, that’s never an excuse to point any gun at a person and pretend to pull the trigger. Just plain stupid. No excuse for that.
Third - Remort, “not respecting” someone was not the issue here, and if it was, is that enough reason to point an M16 at someone and pretend to shoot? The farmers asked the guys to move. How polite they did it isn’t important. How respectful isn’t important. That the soldiers pointed their guns at them for any reason is the issue, and it’s something that should never had happened unless they were a threat. Sounds like they weren’t.
Asking someone to move so they could get by is “screwing with people?”
The only witnesses to this are the farmers, right? The angry mob that assembled and followed the soldiers back to the base merely responded to the information conveyed by their farmer buddies. Sounds manufactured to me.
malpaso wrote:
“Third - Remort, “not respecting” someone was not the issue here, and if it was, is that enough reason to point an M16 at someone and pretend to shoot? The farmers asked the guys to move. How polite they did it isn’t important. How respectful isn’t important. That the soldiers pointed their guns at them for any reason is the issue, and it’s something that should never had happened unless they were a threat. Sounds like they weren’t.”
I don’t believe this naive crap. And YES, I do think this is a matter of disrespect toward the people protecting their freedom. I believe they don’t want the military there, and are simply trying to cause trouble for them. There’s absolutely no evidence that they supposedly pretended to pull the trigger on the M-16, it’s one person’s word against another’s word. I’m particularly suspicious of this civic group’s involvement in the situation, perhaps even putting words into this farmer’s mouth after the fact to heighten attention and publicity.
Now, if they blew his head off, it’s pretty clear-cut. If you start a confrontation with someone wielding a gun, how do you think it’s going to end? Who’s to say how threatening the farmer was in confronting the military personnel? They were aware that the road was blocked before initiating a confrontation both times. Certainly they could have ascertained that the military personnel there were actively involved in an exercise. Quite frankly, they are damn lucky they weren’t shot. Any reasonable person would have sized up the situation and came to the conclusion that the military’s job is more important that watering a field at that very moment.
I’m sure the farmers knew it’s best to water in the morning, but they simply could have watered later in the day or found an alternative route to take and avoided the entire situation from happening. In any event, maybe next time they will think twice before ordering around military personnel, particularly ones that are heavily armed.
Well, I’d prefer to find out what really happened before apportioning blame, although if its true that guns were pointed, there’s going to be serious explaining to do, regardless of whether the farmers should have been out there or not (and I gather from some of the comments at Naver.com that the farmers weren’t supposed to be there during a training exercise).
This story is bullshit. I would wager to say that the gun was never pointed and triggers pulled. Angry old rice farmers can not be trusted.
Farmers / older Korean males explaining talking/demanding something of the big noses - they don’t listen - so the demand is ever so politely made again - and the rude soldiers do….
Sounds kind of familiar……..
The pointing of the M16s doesn’t sound like much to me. I’d place it squarely in a neutral question box.
There are too many different ways it could have transpired.
If they had not received training in the past about force protection in which you are taught to challenge someone like that —– if these were just average civilians, say, going hunting in the woods —– it would be much harder to picture a situation in which they would rightly raise their guns at someone.
Also, having had a few run ins with older male Koreans —- when I did not look like a GI much at all —-
there is no telling in what form the farmers made their demands.
The fact it seems the two were quickly able to contact people willing to chase after the soldiers and get in touch with a standing anti-USFK NGO starts adding possible explainations as well.
What I mean is — I knew an officer in armor who told me about a time in Korea near Paju where one of his tanks got too close to the side of the road, and it caved in and the tank tipped over doing damage to the road and the farmer’s land on the other side of the ditch.
The farmer came out and eventually a city official and the police, but he said the Korean farmer complained mostly about the city not doing something or other with the ditch long before and so on.
He said later the farmer was very pleased with how quickly the repair work was done after it was done.
My point being —- I think in not too few of these USFK incidents, much depends on what kind of stink the local wants to make —- if they run to or get tangled up with one of the long standing anti-US NGOs — and if the media or internet society wants to run with it…..
“When there was no response, the two farmers again asked the Americans to get off the road. This time, they said, two American sergeants came up to them and threatened them by pointing their M-16s at their chests and pretending to pull the triggers.”
Ha! Ha!
hate to say this, but it is obviously a communication break down.
Farmer: An ya bo du seem nida!
US soldier: How come these anti American protestors know we were gong to be here. I thought this training exercise had been kept top secret. Move away! (points M16)
Farmer: Ai yo, yah kim uk ni da!!
US Soldier: I will fire. Warning you!
Farmer runing away.
Farmer has no idea what the soldier are saying. Soldiers have no idea what farmers are saying. So lots of hand gestures and gun pointings. If only someone had captured this on their camera phone like the ones they did in HK, it may be the next big hit, currently the most popular movie in HK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSHziqJWYcM
and the rap version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_sUPTv0t1Y
Isn’t it easier to simply give advance notice to everyone in the area that there would be a training exercise so the farmers can not bother watering plants on that day? No, youo can’t do that. Then those pro-Korean protestors will be there waiting for you. What does all this say? The job of protecting Korea should fall in the hands of __________ .
And you know advance notice was not given how?
Don’t feed the troll.
should thi really be filed under “stupid foreigner tricks”?
seems way to premature to label it as such.
I think I’m on the “no pictures, it did not happen” bandwagon until otherwise proven.
>”Well, I’d prefer to find out what really happened before apportioning blame…..”
Wouldn’t everyone, but does his ever happen with Korean NGOs. media or nertizens?
Simmer down, Remort.
Some farmers ask some soldiers to clear the road and that’s disrespectful? And pointing a rifle at their chests in response is not disrepectful, but in fact is an appropriate response? To which the farmers should have replied, “Thank you sir, may I have another?”
My point was this - from what was posted on this site, soldiers pointing their guns at farmers in response to being asked to clear the road is wrong. Do I think the situation probably was a little different than the farmers said? Sure. Could they be stooges for some “civic group”? Sure. Do we have proof of any of that yet? Nope. Do incidents like this (if it indeed happen like the farmers said) help the US here? Nope. Not in the least. It’s just more fodder for those who hate the US presence here. Why give the enemy more ammunition?
However, I’m glad you’ve got such a good grip on what really happened and the true intentions behind the farmers. Congratulations.
Sounds like the regular summer “hate-in” is about to start. If America has learned anything from the 2002 Race Riots it is not to get into the “apology” charade with the Koreans. It always gets into a spiral and a frenzy. Better that USFK investigate the complaint but then say something to the effect of:
“We continue to be in South Korea at the request of your democratically elected govenment. Complaints regarding USFK must therefore be directed there. We remind the South Korean government that we can are willing to leave South Korea at their request.”
That would nip things in the bud rather quickly, in my opinion.
I wonder if this is somehow related to the fact that elections are two days away. Desperate mechanisms from the Uri Party perchance?
malpaso wrote:
“Some farmers ask some soldiers to clear the road and that’s disrespectful?”
Yes (READ: YES). The farmers could have waited until the exercise was completed or simply found an alternative route to their destination.
malpaso wrote:
“However, I’m glad you’ve got such a good grip on what really happened and the true intentions behind the farmers. Congratulations.”
Thanks! It’s pretty obvious the farmers were in the wrong, particularly when they decided to further push the issue a second time. I call that ’screwing with people’ — come on, think about this malpaso, they are conducting a military exercise.
The fact of the matter is, the farmers and the community know NOT to come a knockin’ when the earth is a rockin’.
Like I said, luckily there’s no dead farmers after they confronted the military personnel and got in their face a second time — no blood, no foul. Honestly, I’m surprised the local police didn’t slap the farmers around to knock some sense into them.
This is what is written in YonHap, the official government newspaper.
지난 27일 오전 6시께 경기도 파주시 적성면 무건리 농로에서 차량을 운전하던 미군과 농민이 시비끝에 미군 병사가 농민들을 향해 총을 겨누는 사건이 빚어졌다.
Around 6AM on 27th, there was a altercation at farm road near Mugunri(Paju, Kengki province)between US Army soldier(s) and farmers. An US soldier pointed gun at farmers.
29일 파주경찰서와 농민들에 따르면 미 2사단 4-7 기갑부대 소속 급식차량이 당일 오전 무건리 군 훈련장을 가던 중 길을 잘못 들어 논에 물을 대기 위해 이동하던 농민들의 스타렉스 차량과 농로에서 마주쳤다.
According to the Paju police and farmers(recorded on 29th), one food transport vehicle belonging to 2div 4-7 armor unit was heading toward Mugunri complex but lost in the farm road and met farmers’ vehicles moving to water the rice field.
미군 차량은 되돌아가기 위해 U-턴을 하려 했으나 길이 좁아 차를 돌리는데 5~10분이 걸렸다.
The US army vehicle tried U-turn but, because of the narrowness of the road, it took 5-10 minutes.
이에 한 농민은 “빨리 길을 비켜주지 않는다”며 차에서 내려 농기구를 들고 나와 거칠게 항의를 했고, 위협을 느낀 미군 병사가 총을 겨눠 농민들이 서면사과를 요구하며 2시간 30여분 동안 미군 차량을 막아서는 등 실랑이를 벌였다.
One farmer carrying a farm equipment(pitch fork?) protested in rough fashion and the US soldier who felt danger aimed the gun at farmers. Farmers, requesting a written apology, have surrounded the vehicle and blocked it from moving for 2.5 hours.
이들의 ‘대치’는 출동한 경찰이 중재해 해소됐으나 농민들은 재발방지 차원에서 미군측의 공식사과를 요구하고 있다.
The police came and dispersed the crowd. But, farmers are requesting an official apology so that this will not occur again.
무건리 훈련장 확대 백지화 대책위원회 관계자는 “우발적인 사고일 수도 있지만 전례가 있어 앞으로 조심하라는 차원에서 사과를 요구하는 것”이라고 말했다.
The “anti-Mugunri” speaker said, “this is an unintentional accident. However, this happened before. We are requesting an apology that this would not happen again.”
- This incident is a very small accident. However, one could say running over the junior high students’ could’ve been termed “auto accident”(which it was until Commies used it to their purpose). Better to be careful. The Uri party needs something like this to beat their Commie drum.
Both sides, the US and farmers, have points. I think it this happened because one farmer becoming violent(he could be a Commie).
Instead getting involved in hate fest, I think we must recognize this to be an accident. Basically, non-issue.
It is prudent for the local US commander to issue a written apology and promise that this type of accident will not happen again. And, send some bulgogi and soju to the farmers. All in the business of public relations.
Nobody did anything wrong (except the incitor). The US soldiers should not be blamed, either. The unit needs more KATUSAs for sure. Assign one KATUSA to each vehicle.
I read comments coming in for the NoCut article and they show Korea has changed in last four years. Many commentors are definitely pro-America. Like me, they are correctly calling anti-American commentors to be Commies.
Yes, they are. Pro-North people are Commies. They must be extinguished from Korean society; there is no room for KJI-lovers. There should be no tolerance.
Unifying with NK means becoming a slave to China!!!! The country with personal income of $1000/year. Just think about how much the Chinese will take from SK. Neary everything. If Koreans want to go from $18000/year to $1000 or less(NK is less) per year, they can love KJI and Chairman Hu.
If Koreans want to keep their apartment, cars and food, they’d better be anti-Commie to the max.
It sounds like the soldiers are guarding a point and screwing around a bit. “Halt who goes there”, etc… I wouldn’t do it in that situation, but that is what they’re supposed to do - we can’t punish them. I don’t think they would have pulled that shit on farmers in Montana, but then the farmers would have spoken English, so on….
The farmers want a written apology? That’s not a problem, I’m sure the USFK is willing to work it out.
“Yes, they are. Pro-North people are Commies. They must be extinguished from Korean society; there is no room for KJI-lovers. There should be no tolerance.”
Baduk,
Why do you have to fight Commies?
I never get this. For example, some heterosexual males hate gays. I never get it. More gay men means less competition for the heterosexual male right? If I can have my way, I wished every male in this world is gay except me. Then I’ll get all the women.
If commies is practising a failed system, then let them continue down the road of destruction. Why bother fighting with them. Sooner or later, they will realize it. Then you can tell them “I told you so.”. Why bother wasting time by hating them. If they think KJI is God, let them believe it. Sell them KJI statues or something and make some money off them.
With all these problems every couple of months, the US should seroiusly consider their position in Korea.
Does 10,000 or 20,000 US troops stationed in Korea really make such a big difference to tilt the odds of defending Korea successfully?
Istn’t it better to have the Korean Army expand its payroll by the same amount of US troops that could be withdrawn?
Isn’t it better to sell to the Korean Military US military equipment so that their military can take over the defense of their country, and at the same time US can profit some money out of it?
Isn’t it better to instead provide intelligense support, through spy satellites, communication interception etc. etc. to the Korean Military?
Or pass a law which states that if Korea is attacked by the North,it would be considered an act of war against the US? (simlar to the Taiwan Relations Act)
I think it was the great Tokyo mayor Shintaro Ishihara who once said that in the event of a war, the US cannot win in North East Asia. The reason is that the US have a lower tolerance for pain for countries in a region which its own citizens will question why they need to get involved in. What this means is that it will be like Vietnam all over. Americans are only tolerating the situation in Korea because there are no body bags returning. But if that situation changes, and body bags starts coming home, it will be Vietnam again. And if you are South Korean, then you better learn from the history of the Vietnam War and start doing something about stregnthening your own military before you are left behind.
“According to the Paju police and farmers(recorded on 29th), one food transport vehicle belonging to 2div 4-7 armor unit was heading toward Mugunri complex but lost in the farm road and met farmers’ vehicles moving to water the rice field.”
This is so stupid. I thought the US has navigation GPS technology. How can they still get lost? Don’t they have cell phones and they can call HQ and ask HQ for directions? A food transport vehicle? So its filled with soldiers that can’t fight?? Like chefs, etc. etc..?
If they can’t even get road directions right, its a big embarassment to the military. What if this was a real war. And they’ll still be lost? I expect this kind of errors coming from North Korea, not from the South.
mahathir_fan wrote:
“If they can’t even get road directions right, its a big embarassment to the military.”
In rural Korea, it’s extremely easy to lose your way. At best, the roads there are poorly marked, extremely narrow, and tricky and dangerous to maneuver.
Now, with this new evidence (thank you Baduk), it’s overtly clear that the farmers were in the wrong, and as I suspected from the beginning, the “civic group” tried to make things worse with their involvement.
However, as a graduate student, having spent a summer living on a farm in very rural in Chonju/Jeonju, Korea, (it was a blast buzzing around on my little scooter) I can definitely see the head-strong farmers thinking they were in the right too, along with the rest of their village immediately coming to back up their claim. If the farmers’ attitude was a bit different, they probably could have got the military to build them their own private access road to the farm.
That’s been very noticable (see the comments to this piece as well). In fact, a couple of months ago, some paper (it may have been OhMyNews) was expressing concern about this trend. It appears the right wing has gotten both a lot more Net-savvy and less complacent about letting the left have a monopoly on netizen discourse.
There are definitely more and more pro American and pro Bush internet users today. For example, I never used the internet until recently.
M_F, are you claiming to be pro-American and pro-Bush?!?
mahathir_fan wrote:
“This is so stupid. I thought the US has navigation GPS technology. How can they still get lost? Don’t they have cell phones and they can call HQ and ask HQ for directions? A food transport vehicle? So its filled with soldiers that can’t fight?? Like chefs, etc. etc..?
If they can’t even get road directions right, its a big embarassment to the military. What if this was a real war. And they’ll still be lost? I expect this kind of errors coming from North Korea, not from the South.”
Your response makes it very plain that you know nothing about how the military operates, let alone inside South Korea. Keeping in mind the yearly rotation of people in and out of peninsula (thus taking away those who have the routes down and almost constantly having new people behind the wheel), the fact is Korea is a foreign country for Americans, and the fact that they were in a rural area, makes it very easy to understand how they could have gotten lost. You think no one gets lost while driving, even in “real war”? They are American soldiers, but they are still human.
Don’t feed the troll.
Repeat — Don’t feed the troll.
Baduk –
Thanks bunches for the translation.
That adds a lot to the story.
And like someone wrote, it touches on a difference in the cultures.
How many times have I seen road rage in Korea — especially on narrow city streets.
The difference in the cultures being —- Americans are fly off the handle less often — because it is too easy to get shot here.
But, in Korea, there is a M-U-C-H greater tolerance for someone - especially someone a good bit older - getting in your face, screaming, and even tugging on your clothes.
I am guess even USFK must give a warning about that to GIs —- from the what we saw in the recent beach protest where the NGO members were tugging on the one soldier trying to walk up the beach — and from the 2003 training range break in where the unit that was not regular USFK (the Stryker unit that came in to demonstrate the vehicle) did get into a small scuffle with the fence breachers.
maybe, i have been in and around the military too long. you simply can not expect a group of soldiers with weapons NOT to point them you. No way to be sure they weren’t part of the exercise. The soldiers should have followed procedures, seized, searched, and flexi cuffed the two and left them for the KNP to deal with.
“M_F, are you claiming to be pro-American and pro-Bush?!?”
If I have to choose whether I am pro or anti American, then I am clearly pro American. But most of the time, my opinion is not shaped by the popular pro-American beliefs but by my own principles.
Yes. I am definitely pro Bush. He is doing a good thing in Iraq. He even gave Saddam a quite fair trial instead of judging him with an American judge, he gets to be judged by his fellow Iraqis. What more do you expect? Besides, Bush has a noble plan to bring democracy to the rest of Middle East including to Saudi Arabia and UAE. My only wish is he gets a 3rd term. See: http://www.mepi.state.gov/
As long as he brings democracy, get the job done and leave, this is America’s 21st century Manifest Destiny. But my critics like to say that they don’t leave. This is why I always insist that they must leave after they get the job done to keep the objective noble. This has to be about spreading democracy, not world domination.
M_H, What a surprise from you!
I’d like to see the GPS system that can properly net out rural Korean roads, especially the pseudo-roads atop rice field dikes.
Besides, US GPS systems work with US military maps. Not all maps are completely up to date with the makeshift trails used by farmers, especially those maps used for training purposes. This is why areas are outlined as “training” and all locals are informed that there will be training beforehand. Permission is obtained from the Korean military and local government.
Farmers wandering around training areas are nothing new, and can often be mistaken (though sometimes true) as “slickey-boy”. I loathed those coutry bastards every time we went to the field for making us pull guard, not for the training purpose in it but to watch for some bastard trying to steal clothing, MREs and the like. So, I’m not surprised that he had a weapon pointed at him from a chow driver at 6 in the morning. Chances are that those two have been up for longer than a day (experience serves right having served as 1st Sgt driver for 6 mos in 2ID) and the last thing you want to deal with after being stuck (which is a huge NO-NO due to enormous amounts of flack received from higher up for disrupting the training sequence because your dumbass is stuck and alone) is some irate farmer with a pitchfork (or whatever he had — my guess is a rabid one-eyed buffulo).
I drive the roads north of the Freedom Bridge quite often. Once you get off the highway to Panmunjum they’re two-lane paved roads. Then you turn off of those to the training areas and you’re on “one-lane” dirt roads, and often they’re at least 2/3rds of a meter higher than the rice paddies. Trying to navigate a U-turn in these circumstances is very diffucult, and when you add pitchfolk-waving ajussi to the mix… The vehicle would either be a HUMMV or an LMTV, and as it was carrying food it would most likely be an LMTV. The LMTV has a very high center a gravity, and a driver would not want to drop off the road at an angle, i.e. one wheel into the rice paddy, which would be the likely result of trying a hasty U-turn. You’re making dozens of small movements of 6-12 inches. Once you commit to making the U-turn you’re at the point of no return and you’re not going back for the benefit of anyone. The drivers I’ve been with take great care to stay off farmland as a claim for compensation will be made for damaged agricultural land. When out of their vehicle the soldiers are to always to carry their weapon unless it can be secured and guarded by another soldier–a missing sensitive item, such as a weapon, is a catastrophe. When performing ground guide, which requires the use of both the soldier’s arms, the weapons are usually strung across the front of a soldier’s chest; it could be pointed/aimed, intentionally or not, quite easily at someone facing the soldier, especially if the soldier were to turn his body. Almost always the driver is lower ranked, likely a Private First Class or Specialist, so it is entirely possible that the soldiers with weapons were Staff Sergeants, though I don’t know how well ajussi reads rank. GPS units are not issued to every vehicle; they’re likely to be only with the convoy leader, and they’re as only as good as their maps. Typically the drivers will have strip maps, and these are unit-created concoctions which are often hand drawn and noted with landmarks such as large tree, farmhouse, etc. If you’re lucky someone used a digital camera and photoed the route noted on the strip map. Strip maps don’t help once lost, and usually the driver will realize he/she’s lost when the landmarks on the strip map don’t appear for a long while–”Shouldn’t we have seen a dilapidated white building by now?”. Most vehicles I’ve been in don’t have radios, and due to the topography of Korea the range isn’t all that far. Land-mobile radios (LMRs, which are hand-held radios, like walkie-talkies) are not very common either–this is due to the ROK’s Ministry of Communication’s mandate that all USFK wide-band radios cease being used and replaced with narrow-band ones. These cost a few thousand dollars each, so replacement takes time. Regardless, if you don’t know where you are, and radio another soldier who doesn’t know where you are, you’re SOL. Cell phones work quite well up there, though. Ajussi had comms and the lay of the land, so rallying a group of protestors would have been a cinch. Ajussi would have seen that the vehicle and the driver were in quite a predicament, so jumping around wasn’t the most considerate thing to do. I have seen ajussi kick back a few bottles while working in the fields, even in the morning, so perhaps makoli contributed to this.