Comments on: GIs point guns at Korean farmers? http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/05/29/gis-point-guns-at-korean-farmers/ Korea... in Blog Format Sun, 6 Jul 2008 23:45:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: seouldout http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/05/29/gis-point-guns-at-korean-farmers/#comment-36747 seouldout Wed, 31 May 2006 13:08:40 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2925#comment-36747 I drive the roads north of the Freedom Bridge quite often. Once you get off the highway to Panmunjum they're two-lane paved roads. Then you turn off of those to the training areas and you're on "one-lane" dirt roads, and often they're at least 2/3rds of a meter higher than the rice paddies. Trying to navigate a U-turn in these circumstances is very diffucult, and when you add pitchfolk-waving ajussi to the mix... The vehicle would either be a HUMMV or an LMTV, and as it was carrying food it would most likely be an LMTV. The LMTV has a very high center a gravity, and a driver would not want to drop off the road at an angle, i.e. one wheel into the rice paddy, which would be the likely result of trying a hasty U-turn. You're making dozens of small movements of 6-12 inches. Once you commit to making the U-turn you're at the point of no return and you're not going back for the benefit of anyone. The drivers I've been with take great care to stay off farmland as a claim for compensation will be made for damaged agricultural land. When out of their vehicle the soldiers are to always to carry their weapon unless it can be secured and guarded by another soldier--a missing sensitive item, such as a weapon, is a catastrophe. When performing ground guide, which requires the use of both the soldier's arms, the weapons are usually strung across the front of a soldier's chest; it could be pointed/aimed, intentionally or not, quite easily at someone facing the soldier, especially if the soldier were to turn his body. Almost always the driver is lower ranked, likely a Private First Class or Specialist, so it is entirely possible that the soldiers with weapons were Staff Sergeants, though I don't know how well ajussi reads rank. GPS units are not issued to every vehicle; they're likely to be only with the convoy leader, and they're as only as good as their maps. Typically the drivers will have strip maps, and these are unit-created concoctions which are often hand drawn and noted with landmarks such as large tree, farmhouse, etc. If you're lucky someone used a digital camera and photoed the route noted on the strip map. Strip maps don't help once lost, and usually the driver will realize he/she's lost when the landmarks on the strip map don't appear for a long while--"Shouldn't we have seen a dilapidated white building by now?". Most vehicles I've been in don't have radios, and due to the topography of Korea the range isn't all that far. Land-mobile radios (LMRs, which are hand-held radios, like walkie-talkies) are not very common either--this is due to the ROK's Ministry of Communication's mandate that all USFK wide-band radios cease being used and replaced with narrow-band ones. These cost a few thousand dollars each, so replacement takes time. Regardless, if you don't know where you are, and radio another soldier who doesn't know where you are, you're SOL. Cell phones work quite well up there, though. Ajussi had comms and the lay of the land, so rallying a group of protestors would have been a cinch. Ajussi would have seen that the vehicle and the driver were in quite a predicament, so jumping around wasn't the most considerate thing to do. I have seen ajussi kick back a few bottles while working in the fields, even in the morning, so perhaps makoli contributed to this. I drive the roads north of the Freedom Bridge quite often. Once you get off the highway to Panmunjum they’re two-lane paved roads. Then you turn off of those to the training areas and you’re on “one-lane” dirt roads, and often they’re at least 2/3rds of a meter higher than the rice paddies. Trying to navigate a U-turn in these circumstances is very diffucult, and when you add pitchfolk-waving ajussi to the mix… The vehicle would either be a HUMMV or an LMTV, and as it was carrying food it would most likely be an LMTV. The LMTV has a very high center a gravity, and a driver would not want to drop off the road at an angle, i.e. one wheel into the rice paddy, which would be the likely result of trying a hasty U-turn. You’re making dozens of small movements of 6-12 inches. Once you commit to making the U-turn you’re at the point of no return and you’re not going back for the benefit of anyone. The drivers I’ve been with take great care to stay off farmland as a claim for compensation will be made for damaged agricultural land. When out of their vehicle the soldiers are to always to carry their weapon unless it can be secured and guarded by another soldier–a missing sensitive item, such as a weapon, is a catastrophe. When performing ground guide, which requires the use of both the soldier’s arms, the weapons are usually strung across the front of a soldier’s chest; it could be pointed/aimed, intentionally or not, quite easily at someone facing the soldier, especially if the soldier were to turn his body. Almost always the driver is lower ranked, likely a Private First Class or Specialist, so it is entirely possible that the soldiers with weapons were Staff Sergeants, though I don’t know how well ajussi reads rank. GPS units are not issued to every vehicle; they’re likely to be only with the convoy leader, and they’re as only as good as their maps. Typically the drivers will have strip maps, and these are unit-created concoctions which are often hand drawn and noted with landmarks such as large tree, farmhouse, etc. If you’re lucky someone used a digital camera and photoed the route noted on the strip map. Strip maps don’t help once lost, and usually the driver will realize he/she’s lost when the landmarks on the strip map don’t appear for a long while–”Shouldn’t we have seen a dilapidated white building by now?”. Most vehicles I’ve been in don’t have radios, and due to the topography of Korea the range isn’t all that far. Land-mobile radios (LMRs, which are hand-held radios, like walkie-talkies) are not very common either–this is due to the ROK’s Ministry of Communication’s mandate that all USFK wide-band radios cease being used and replaced with narrow-band ones. These cost a few thousand dollars each, so replacement takes time. Regardless, if you don’t know where you are, and radio another soldier who doesn’t know where you are, you’re SOL. Cell phones work quite well up there, though. Ajussi had comms and the lay of the land, so rallying a group of protestors would have been a cinch. Ajussi would have seen that the vehicle and the driver were in quite a predicament, so jumping around wasn’t the most considerate thing to do. I have seen ajussi kick back a few bottles while working in the fields, even in the morning, so perhaps makoli contributed to this.

]]> By: Joey http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/05/29/gis-point-guns-at-korean-farmers/#comment-36733 Joey Tue, 30 May 2006 23:08:33 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2925#comment-36733 I'd like to see the GPS system that can properly net out rural Korean roads, especially the pseudo-roads atop rice field dikes. Besides, US GPS systems work with US military maps. Not all maps are completely up to date with the makeshift trails used by farmers, especially those maps used for training purposes. This is why areas are outlined as "training" and all locals are informed that there will be training beforehand. Permission is obtained from the Korean military and local government. Farmers wandering around training areas are nothing new, and can often be mistaken (though sometimes true) as "slickey-boy". I loathed those coutry bastards every time we went to the field for making us pull guard, not for the training purpose in it but to watch for some bastard trying to steal clothing, MREs and the like. So, I'm not surprised that he had a weapon pointed at him from a chow driver at 6 in the morning. Chances are that those two have been up for longer than a day (experience serves right having served as 1st Sgt driver for 6 mos in 2ID) and the last thing you want to deal with after being stuck (which is a huge NO-NO due to enormous amounts of flack received from higher up for disrupting the training sequence because your dumbass is stuck and alone) is some irate farmer with a pitchfork (or whatever he had -- my guess is a rabid one-eyed buffulo). I’d like to see the GPS system that can properly net out rural Korean roads, especially the pseudo-roads atop rice field dikes.

Besides, US GPS systems work with US military maps. Not all maps are completely up to date with the makeshift trails used by farmers, especially those maps used for training purposes. This is why areas are outlined as “training” and all locals are informed that there will be training beforehand. Permission is obtained from the Korean military and local government.

Farmers wandering around training areas are nothing new, and can often be mistaken (though sometimes true) as “slickey-boy”. I loathed those coutry bastards every time we went to the field for making us pull guard, not for the training purpose in it but to watch for some bastard trying to steal clothing, MREs and the like. So, I’m not surprised that he had a weapon pointed at him from a chow driver at 6 in the morning. Chances are that those two have been up for longer than a day (experience serves right having served as 1st Sgt driver for 6 mos in 2ID) and the last thing you want to deal with after being stuck (which is a huge NO-NO due to enormous amounts of flack received from higher up for disrupting the training sequence because your dumbass is stuck and alone) is some irate farmer with a pitchfork (or whatever he had — my guess is a rabid one-eyed buffulo).

]]> By: railwaycharm http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/05/29/gis-point-guns-at-korean-farmers/#comment-36692 railwaycharm Tue, 30 May 2006 08:02:16 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2925#comment-36692 M_H, What a surprise from you! M_H, What a surprise from you!

]]> By: mahathir_fan http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/05/29/gis-point-guns-at-korean-farmers/#comment-36690 mahathir_fan Tue, 30 May 2006 05:54:26 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2925#comment-36690 "M_F, are you claiming to be pro-American and pro-Bush?!?" If I have to choose whether I am pro or anti American, then I am clearly pro American. But most of the time, my opinion is not shaped by the popular pro-American beliefs but by my own principles. Yes. I am definitely pro Bush. He is doing a good thing in Iraq. He even gave Saddam a quite fair trial instead of judging him with an American judge, he gets to be judged by his fellow Iraqis. What more do you expect? Besides, Bush has a noble plan to bring democracy to the rest of Middle East including to Saudi Arabia and UAE. My only wish is he gets a 3rd term. See: http://www.mepi.state.gov/ As long as he brings democracy, get the job done and leave, this is America's 21st century Manifest Destiny. But my critics like to say that they don't leave. This is why I always insist that they must leave after they get the job done to keep the objective noble. This has to be about spreading democracy, not world domination. “M_F, are you claiming to be pro-American and pro-Bush?!?”

If I have to choose whether I am pro or anti American, then I am clearly pro American. But most of the time, my opinion is not shaped by the popular pro-American beliefs but by my own principles.

Yes. I am definitely pro Bush. He is doing a good thing in Iraq. He even gave Saddam a quite fair trial instead of judging him with an American judge, he gets to be judged by his fellow Iraqis. What more do you expect? Besides, Bush has a noble plan to bring democracy to the rest of Middle East including to Saudi Arabia and UAE. My only wish is he gets a 3rd term. See: http://www.mepi.state.gov/

As long as he brings democracy, get the job done and leave, this is America’s 21st century Manifest Destiny. But my critics like to say that they don’t leave. This is why I always insist that they must leave after they get the job done to keep the objective noble. This has to be about spreading democracy, not world domination.

]]> By: augmento http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/05/29/gis-point-guns-at-korean-farmers/#comment-36687 augmento Tue, 30 May 2006 05:37:14 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2925#comment-36687 maybe, i have been in and around the military too long. you simply can not expect a group of soldiers with weapons NOT to point them you. No way to be sure they weren't part of the exercise. The soldiers should have followed procedures, seized, searched, and flexi cuffed the two and left them for the KNP to deal with. maybe, i have been in and around the military too long. you simply can not expect a group of soldiers with weapons NOT to point them you. No way to be sure they weren’t part of the exercise. The soldiers should have followed procedures, seized, searched, and flexi cuffed the two and left them for the KNP to deal with.

]]> By: usinkorea http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/05/29/gis-point-guns-at-korean-farmers/#comment-36686 usinkorea Tue, 30 May 2006 05:31:40 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2925#comment-36686 Don't feed the troll. Repeat -- Don't feed the troll. Baduk -- Thanks bunches for the translation. That adds a lot to the story. And like someone wrote, it touches on a difference in the cultures. How many times have I seen road rage in Korea --- especially on narrow city streets. The difference in the cultures being ---- Americans are fly off the handle less often --- because it is too easy to get shot here. But, in Korea, there is a M-U-C-H greater tolerance for someone - especially someone a good bit older - getting in your face, screaming, and even tugging on your clothes. I am guess even USFK must give a warning about that to GIs ---- from the what we saw in the recent beach protest where the NGO members were tugging on the one soldier trying to walk up the beach --- and from the 2003 training range break in where the unit that was not regular USFK (the Stryker unit that came in to demonstrate the vehicle) did get into a small scuffle with the fence breachers. Don’t feed the troll.

Repeat — Don’t feed the troll.

Baduk –

Thanks bunches for the translation.

That adds a lot to the story.

And like someone wrote, it touches on a difference in the cultures.

How many times have I seen road rage in Korea — especially on narrow city streets.

The difference in the cultures being —- Americans are fly off the handle less often — because it is too easy to get shot here.

But, in Korea, there is a M-U-C-H greater tolerance for someone - especially someone a good bit older - getting in your face, screaming, and even tugging on your clothes.

I am guess even USFK must give a warning about that to GIs —- from the what we saw in the recent beach protest where the NGO members were tugging on the one soldier trying to walk up the beach — and from the 2003 training range break in where the unit that was not regular USFK (the Stryker unit that came in to demonstrate the vehicle) did get into a small scuffle with the fence breachers.

]]> By: bluejax21 http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/05/29/gis-point-guns-at-korean-farmers/#comment-36684 bluejax21 Tue, 30 May 2006 04:58:08 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2925#comment-36684 mahathir_fan wrote: "This is so stupid. I thought the US has navigation GPS technology. How can they still get lost? Don’t they have cell phones and they can call HQ and ask HQ for directions? A food transport vehicle? So its filled with soldiers that can’t fight?? Like chefs, etc. etc..? If they can’t even get road directions right, its a big embarassment to the military. What if this was a real war. And they’ll still be lost? I expect this kind of errors coming from North Korea, not from the South." Your response makes it very plain that you know nothing about how the military operates, let alone inside South Korea. Keeping in mind the yearly rotation of people in and out of peninsula (thus taking away those who have the routes down and almost constantly having new people behind the wheel), the fact is Korea is a foreign country for Americans, and the fact that they were in a rural area, makes it very easy to understand how they could have gotten lost. You think no one gets lost while driving, even in "real war"? They are American soldiers, but they are still human. mahathir_fan wrote:

“This is so stupid. I thought the US has navigation GPS technology. How can they still get lost? Don’t they have cell phones and they can call HQ and ask HQ for directions? A food transport vehicle? So its filled with soldiers that can’t fight?? Like chefs, etc. etc..?

If they can’t even get road directions right, its a big embarassment to the military. What if this was a real war. And they’ll still be lost? I expect this kind of errors coming from North Korea, not from the South.”

Your response makes it very plain that you know nothing about how the military operates, let alone inside South Korea. Keeping in mind the yearly rotation of people in and out of peninsula (thus taking away those who have the routes down and almost constantly having new people behind the wheel), the fact is Korea is a foreign country for Americans, and the fact that they were in a rural area, makes it very easy to understand how they could have gotten lost. You think no one gets lost while driving, even in “real war”? They are American soldiers, but they are still human.

]]> By: snow http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/05/29/gis-point-guns-at-korean-farmers/#comment-36683 snow Tue, 30 May 2006 04:57:09 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2925#comment-36683 M_F, are you claiming to be pro-American and pro-Bush?!? M_F, are you claiming to be pro-American and pro-Bush?!?

]]> By: mahathir_fan http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/05/29/gis-point-guns-at-korean-farmers/#comment-36674 mahathir_fan Mon, 29 May 2006 23:37:23 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2925#comment-36674 There are definitely more and more pro American and pro Bush internet users today. For example, I never used the internet until recently. There are definitely more and more pro American and pro Bush internet users today. For example, I never used the internet until recently.

]]> By: Robert http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/05/29/gis-point-guns-at-korean-farmers/#comment-36671 Robert Mon, 29 May 2006 22:26:17 +0000 http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2925#comment-36671 <blockquote>I read comments coming in for the NoCut article and they show Korea has changed in last four years. Many commentors are definitely pro-America.</blockquote> That's been very noticable (see the comments to <a target="_blank" href="http://news.naver.com/news/read.php?mode=LSS2D&office_id=001&article_id=0001311051&section_id=100&section_id2=267&menu_id=100">this piece</a> as well). In fact, a couple of months ago, some paper (it may have been OhMyNews) was expressing concern about this trend. It appears the right wing has gotten both a lot more Net-savvy and less complacent about letting the left have a monopoly on netizen discourse.

I read comments coming in for the NoCut article and they show Korea has changed in last four years. Many commentors are definitely pro-America.

That’s been very noticable (see the comments to this piece as well). In fact, a couple of months ago, some paper (it may have been OhMyNews) was expressing concern about this trend. It appears the right wing has gotten both a lot more Net-savvy and less complacent about letting the left have a monopoly on netizen discourse.

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