I have just finished rereading The Korean War by Max Hastings. It is a pretty good introduction on the war although, having been written in the late 1980s, it is in major need of revision. For example, we now know that the Chinese were hankering to get involved in the war long before UN forces crosses the 38th parallel.
Anyway, I came across a bit in the last chapter that I found interesting. Here it is:
Thousands of men who fought for the United Nations in Korea are deeply moved today by the gratitude the South Koreans still display for the salvation of their country from the communists more than thirty [now fifty] years ago… “I see Koreans today, and the respect they show for us,” said Private Bill Norris of the 27th Infantry, “and I contrast this with the animosity I saw for us in Europe after World War II ended. They didn’t want us over there. In Korea, I see gratitude. I never felt exploited by a Korean, in the way we all were as GIs by the French and Belgians in 1945. In the marketplace in Seoul, I could buy stuff for the same price a Korean paid for it. I felt safe there.” Sergeant John Richardson, of 2nd Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry, believed passionately that the war was worthwhile: “In October 1983, I had the great privilege of going back to Korea. It was the thrill of a lifetime. On my return, I simply told the Calgary Branch of the PPCLI Association that I was convinced that our fallen comrades rest in a country where their sacrifice is fully appreciated.”
A couple of things jump out at me. First, I had never before heard about European resentment of the Americans in the immediate aftermath of WW2, although I should have suspected it (nobody likes having his country occupied by foreign troops even if they are there to help). Events in the 1980s, a time of anti-American protest in Europe, might have caused Private Norris to recall his negative experiences their.
The other thing is how Koreans were portrayed as genuinely grateful, which contrasts strongly with the widely held view of Koreans today. Two things have changed in the last 20 years. First, a generation of people with no memory of the war has come to power. Memory fades, historical memory more so. It is only natural that the strong emotions attached to those memories would also fade.
Second, that natural tendency to forget is reinforced by the pronouncements of some Korean politicians and activists who want reshape Korean policy towards North Korea and who thus choose to downplay the both the vileness of the North Korean regime and the help that the US and others in the UN command gave Korea in fighting it. The continue presence of American troops here exasperates that problem since it gives some politicians a target to rail against whenever they need a boast from their base. Of course, that presence also sometimes causes incidents which damage the image of the US for some Koreans (an American bridge-layer really did kill two Korean girls in 2002).
Despite this, I believe the image of Koreans as being ungrateful is largely undeserved. I think Private Norris would agree. I know Korean War veteran Lawrence Chavez does:
“When I was there this time, wearing a jacket with ‘Korea’ on it and the year I served, the people were so wonderful and welcoming,” Chavez said. “It was nice.”
31 Comments
the ungrateful would be the Vietcong.
As I have been writing for two years, when this Rho (pro-North) government goes and new Hannara administration and Lee MyungBak come in, you will see Koreans doing 180 degree turn overnight.
Korea will again turn into pro-American. In fact, Korea has never been anti-american with the exception of Korean Commie minority. Up to now, most Koreans kept quiet and let Commies receive media attention.
Hoewever, as soon as Rho leaves, average freedom-loving Koreans will speak out again. They have kept quiet up to now because Rho’s pro-North government may blacklist them. When Rho goes, they will speak their minds and express strong pro-American and anti-KJI views.
Just wait about one more year and see Koreans do 180 degree turnaround.
Baduk, I will take your bet and wait one year. You will still see anti-American, anti-white crap in the media and coming out of Koreans’ mouths. You may have been right about Hwang, but you are out of touch with your countrymen on this.
It’s naturally a generational thing–old guys on the subway occasionally start up conversations with me and when they find out I’m from the Great Satan they say they are grateful for the U.S. soldiers’ sacrifices.
As memories of that time fade you get idiotic revisionist crap like “Welcome to Dongmakgol.”
“The other thing is how Koreans were portrayed as genuinely grateful, which contrasts strongly with the widely held view of Koreans today. Two things have changed in the last 20 years. First, a generation of people with no memory of the war has come to power. Memory fades, historical memory more so. It is only natural that the strong emotions attached to those memories would also fade. ”
WRONG! Koreans are grateful that America came to help. The part that created animosity is a realization that the US is STILL in korea 50 years after the war ended and at a time when North Korea is no longer a threat. South Korea under such circumstances effectively has become a US protectorate.
Those who support Korea being a protectorate will of course try to sell the idea that North Korea is still a threat. But I ask that you simply take a look at photographs taken by tourists who have visited North Korea. Do you know that in North Korea they are still using human traffic police to direct traffics? Do you know that in North Korea there are so few cars? Do you know that most people in North Korea do not have cell phones? Do you know that in North Korea they are still using 486s as their CPU? Yet I am told that in the event of a war between North and South, South Korea cannot win the war without US assistance. That’s Bull shit. South Korea is at least 40 years more advance than North Korea in technology and military technology. If South Korea loses the war with the North today, it would be like the greatest upset in military history.
“I see dead people.”
mahathir_fan,
You are so clueless. You are not a Korean and you don’t live in Korea. You have no idea about Korea.
1) Koreans are so happy that the US troops are in Korea. NK and KJI still insist that they can attack SK any time. With the enemy like this, the only way for security is to have the US troops in Korea.
2) If there is a war between SK and NK, I think it will be 50-50. But as soon as China enters the war or even a rumor of it, SK will just give up.
3) Once the US troops leave Korea, they will not come back. All Koreans know this. When the last U.S. soldiers leave, Korea will just disintegrate and overrun by NKs. It is VietNam all over again.
dogbertt,
Just wait one year. I am willing to bet $10,000. You will see night and day difference once Rho leaves. All Jolla Commies will get kicked out of administration. People will ridicule pro-North Commies.
I guarantee it!
Already, young people, I mean teenagers and young twenties, are Hannara crowd. The Hannara party platform is to be pro-American and anti-NK. And, young people support the party!
Korea has changed already. Once Lee MyungBack enters the BlueHouse, there will be a purge of “pro-North” Commies. I mean in the government, in media and in education.
baduk,,
rebutals:
On your point 1, that is true. Unfornately, even dictators love to pick easy targets. North Korea first attacked South Korea because the invasion of South Korea was so easy he nearly took the entire country in a matter of weeks. Today the situation is different. It is unlikely that he will get more than 20 miles into the South before being pushed back north.
On point 2, how can the odds be 50-50?? Against an enemy that doesn’t even have cell phones? Against an enemy that is still driving a truck with a 1970s engine? Against an enemy that is still peering through binoculars? South Korea has satellite phones which will work anywhere in the peninsular. They have trucks that are equipped with GPS and position location technology allowing HQ to know their exact locations. And they probably have access to real time satellite imagery that will allow them to track North’s every move.
If China enters the war, then it is true. SK is finished. Unfronately, the situation is different this time round. Even during the first Korean War, China DID not want to enter it. They pushed the Russians to help the North Koreans because they did not want to be proxy soldiers for the Russians. But when the Russians refused to help the North Koreans(they did provide air support but in disguised form), China had to help out of selfish reasons.
The reason is that the Chinese government then was by and large considered illegitimate by the rest of the world. It overthrew the legitimate government of ROC, and ROC fled to Taiwan temporarily. Chiang Kai Shek was going to launched an attack to retake China from the Communist when the time was right. The communist government feared that if the US is allowed to exterminate the North Korean government, Chiang Kai Shek will use that opportunity to persuade the American government to help him in his quest to retake Mainland China from the Communist. It is even possible that Chiang Kai Shek may seek a UN resolution to retake Mainland China from this illegitimate government that has no UN representation that overthrew him illegally.
But today the situation is different. It is the Chinag Kai Shek government that is largely considered illegitimate by the rest of the world and his remaining government has no UN representation. The Communist government is today the legitimate government considered by the rest of the world and it has UN representation.
On pont 3, it is true, The US is stretched very thin. But how long do you want them to be there? Why can’t Koreans fight and defend their own country? Why ask others to fight your country for you? If you love your country, you must enlist and protect it. Join a reserve or something so that in the event of a war, your service if needed by your South Korean government can be used. Love your nation, die for your nation. Not, love my country, but in the event of a war, I hope those Americans die for me and cower under the bed.
mahatir_fan,
The fact is that NK has an extrememly large,powerful (although somewhat antiquated) military with an extrememly unstable and unpredictable command.There are literally thousands of artillery pieces pointing south less than 20kms from where I sit.Baduk is correct in that a war is 50-50 although The South would probably prevail.
The point that is overlooked however is that a possible war is not about win-lose.It is about the destruction of an globally-important democratic economic power(inevitable)and an enormous loss of life (unavoidable).Even a relatively short conflict will create an unimaginable human and economic disaster that will set the peninsula back years.And,on a personal note, I hate to think of people I know and love putting themselves in harm’s way to defend their country from a dictator’s last,desperate act of self-preservation.
I think that debates about gratitude are relatively pointless because if push-comes-to-shove SK will make its allegiances known pretty quickly.
Anyhoo…my two cents…..
baduk, bethor,
M_fan is happy living in a fantasy land. Just leave him be.
mahathir_fan,
1) As bethor wrote, the Korean war that has never officially ended will resume by massive NK shelling of all known SK troop positions north of Seoul and carpet-shelling of Seoul. In addition, NK missles armed with Chemical gas will hit most troop positions south of Seoul. This will render SK troops powerless and politicians as well as generals will run and hide. There will be no command structure remaining.
2) What does cell phone have to do with fighting? When the young soldiers as well as their superiors are willing to abandon the unit and want to run, there is no regrouping and no resistance. This is how NK overwhelmed SK in two weeks during Korean War. It was not because of tanks! SK soldiers ran. And, some Commies in the military saw NK Commies as liberation forces. The same situation exists in Korea right now. There is a widening gap between the rich and the poor. And, young soldiers are not ready to fight and die. Officers are busy playing golf. WTF! When the war starts, they will run and hide.
3)”Why cant Koreans fight and defend their own country?” - SK is a small country. It cannot fight a foe with Chinese backing. It is like an egg hitting a stone. Yet, you sit there and make a silly statement about SK defending own country. Wake up and smell the coffee. Without the US troops, SK cannot fight off NK. And, all thinking Koreans know this too well!!!! Ergo, they welcome the US troops with open arms. Only f***ing Commies lie that SK can defend the country without any help and try to shun the US troops.
When the Rho administration started, it captured the imagination of Korean people. Its pro-North views were like a breath of fresh air. And, KJI seems to respond to it and unification of two Koreas became somewhat possible. However, last five years proved different. SKs have learned that KJI is the jerk that everybody said that he was. He invaded and killed about eleven SK soldiers in the WestSea. He jerked the chain on Kumgang mountain trips and made Hyndai corporation to be beggers (with the exception of auto manufacturing arm). And, he has no intention of opening up the nation to the world; he is f***ing dictator who surviving on bloods of NKs.
SKs have seen enough. Korean attitude has turned anti-NK and anti-KJI. If you need an example, just look at world cup. In 2002, there was some talk about including NK. This time around, there is no talk, absolutely none, about forming an combined team with NK. If Rho suggests it, he will be booed out of office. SKs have learned the truths about NKs and their “beloved” leader. And, SKs are sick of them.
Sks have changed. Unification is no longer favored as it was five years ago. That is understandable when Gaesung industrial area has not brought one cent of gain and inter-Korea railway is boycotted entirely by NK. Gumgang mountain trips are still heavily subsidized by SK government.
LeeMyungback, when he becomes president, will slash all these waste of money. He will bring pragmatism and accountability to the government. And, when the waste of Rho government and how much money he has sent to KJI in the form of these “mutual” projects, SKs including the poor will be outraged.
Only one year to go before the 180 degree turn toward freedom and true democracy.
“Even during the first Korean War, China DID not want to enter it.” - mahathir_fan
Don’t make me laugh. If you believe that, you are hopeless.
Mahathir_fan, South Korea can’t do without the US because of the Chinese. Furthermore, mere US presence prevents the anything from happening in the first place. It’s not a matter of not loving the country or lacking patriotism.
Chinese military buildup is of significant concern not only to South Korea, but also to the US.
I was watching CNN’s Lou Dobbs, Moneyline show one night in May, 2006. China is still actively stealing US military technology. Even after the whole mess during the Clinton era.
China also bought up a lot of US Treasury bills, becoming a lender to the US.
China sees the US as a possible show down opponent. Russia probably feels the same way. Guess what? Russia and China are also border neighbors to North Korea, and also regular historical participants in 6 party talks concerning North Korea. At the worst case scenario, North Korea gets Russian and Chinese military backing to fight off South Korea. US presence is a necessity. Only commies insist on going solo.
South Korea can fight off North Korea, but not a Chinese or Russian supported North Korea. And, why fight in the first place? US presence guarantees no military conflict. That’s what I see of it.
If you’re Chinese, Mahathir_fan, don’t bring up dirt on South Korean patriotism. I personally know of several US citizens of Taiwan origin working and making money in Taiwan, who travel out of Taiwan regularly to avoid military service in Taiwan.
NK is not unpredictable. If it is, Kim Jong Il would have already attacked South Korea by now. What’s he waiting for? He is crazy right? If he really is, he would have attacked. That he hasn’t means he is calculative. He will pick the right moment. He will not go on a suicide mission. Why do you think he has not attacked in the last 10 years? Because the US is protecting South Korea? If you think that is true, then the logic that you must accept is that he will not get into a confrontation with a stronger enemy. And following that logic, if South Korea is strong militarily even without US assistance, then it will become a strong enemy to the North. And the north will not attack if they know their enemy is stronger than them. Let’s just say this. How many US soldiers are there protecting Korea? 20,000? If 20,000, then let’s just say Korea hires another 20,000 Korean soldiers in its payroll. There the power is back. Or US military has high tech equipment? Let’s just say Korea buys those equipment from the US. There, the power is back. Or how many US ships are there out there? OK. Korea will commission new war ships to make up for the “lost” ones after the US leaves. There, the power is back. Or the US agrees to help by sending ships in in the event of war. There the power is back.
Korea needs to have a strategy, how strong its military must be to deter North Korea from attacking. Work towards that goal. If you think Korea is strong enough today, then you must be OK for US to go. If you think Korea is not strong enough, then you must question what is the Korean Ministry of Defense doing in the past 30 years, sleeping?? And then Korea must work towards the goal of strengtehning its military. The question is not whether US stays or leave, but how soon can South Korea militarize itself to a level that will make it strong enough to deter North from attacking without any outside assistance. What channels are available for South Korea to defuse tensions with North Korea diplomatically. Taht’s what being sovereign is about. Otherwise it is stuck as a protectorate. In the old days, they were protected by China. In the modern era, they are protected by the US. Boo Hoo. If you are a Korean Patriot, you must agree one thing, either at present or if you think present is not a good time, some time in the future, Korea must take its own defense in its own hands o/w history will once again judge Korea as a country that relies on superpowers for its existence.
i bet baduk will lose that bet. Dogbertt should try to put this bet in some sort of legally binding way… Unless the power of state controlled tv news triumphs over the fickle mind of masses….
Chinese and a fan of Mahathir Mohamed. That’s a good one.
Dogbertt and wjk,
This coming election on local governors and mayors shaping up to be a landslide for Hannara party. The Uri party slogan? “Give us at least one mayor!”
The tide has turned. The Uri party is history. They have f***ed up Korea and wasted billions of dollars by sending them to KJI. Koreans are fed up and will not take this bullshit any more. The Uri cannot dangle Unification as the objective while stealing billions from decent working Koreans. They got to go!
When Hannara comes into power, there will be no bullshit anti-Americanism or pro-North fuckups like Kang JeongGu. No more bullshit. No more lies about NK conditions. No more toleration for “Beloved leader” who sucks blood of NKs.
None of that. Korea will do nothing less than 180 degree turn around in less than a day. You just wait and see.
Baduk wrote:
Just wait one year. I am willing to bet $10,000.
Baduk, Dogbertt is offering a different bet thatn what you’re asking. You’re saying the country will vote in the Hannara-dang and the anti-American rhetoric coming from the ruling administration will end.
On the other hand, Dogbertt is…
…simply betting that someone in the media and some Koreans will say something anti-American or anti-White, something that would no doubt be true regardless of how anti-American Korea could possibly become.
How is Hannara different from Uri? Night and day.
1) Hannara will distance Korea from KJI. Some programs will continue but others will strongly curtailed. Uri is wasting billions while hiding them from national budget. These Commie politicians are up to the same game Kim Daejung played. Hannara will stop them.
2) The media, court and teachers will turn pro-American overnight. No more one-sided reporting. No more lies. And, no excuses for anti-Ameican hooligans. They will be jailed and prosecuted. The government will crack down on anti-American Commies.
3) Korea will also try to embrace Japan. Politicians will tone down protests against Japan while increasing cultural exchange between two peoples.
4) Korean military will be strengthened and NK will be reinstated as the “main” enemy, which is the proper name for KJI’s(and China’s) aggressive behaviors toward SK.
In other words, Korea will become closer to the US and Japan while shunning KJI and China. This is nothing less than 180 turn about from the Uri’s Commie ideology.
Korea will come out of the web of lies Uri politicians spun. Korea will be free.
Baduk, you’re giving me goosebumps. I’m giving you my vote. Oh wait. I don’t have a vote. But if I did, I’d give it to you.
I’ve been in Seoul for the past four administrations. Anti-Americanism was quite evident in 1989 as it is today. The main difference is that that this Noh adminstration (I won’t spell the name Roh) is more public in its differences with the US. Whether Koreans are grateful or not for US military assistance really isn’t a key issue. Koreans see their economic growth as the primary, if not sole, security objective. I’ve rarely met any Korean who subscribes to the notion of laissez-faire capitalism–I worked at the BOK for several years and it’s all about merchantilism. The foundation of anti-Americanism is the belief that America seeks to dominate the Korean economy; so whether it’s hot dogs or cigarettes or cars or financial services the Korean public gets whipped up when America “pressures” it to liberalize. As liberalization is inevitable, and required by Korea’s WTO obligations, anti-Americanism will persist. (I find the argument that the US military presence and economic aid provided the stability and security for Korea’s “Miracle on the Han” valid; most Koreans I’ve met cite the same as US “economic imperialism”. Just one quick example: I recall that Korean students were taught that US food aid was provided to alter the Korean diet and thus develop a market for US food products. A quick look around the supermarket will show that the great majority of food products are made in Korea by Korean companies, yet this belief resists change in spite of the evidence.)
Koreans have suspicions about foreigners’ ulterior motives. If you know about Korean history (getting raped repeatedly by neighbors), that is quite understandable. And, you will agree that sometimes some US corporations do engage in ugly tactics to win market share. It is just healthy for Koreans to question intentions and resist opening up entire Korean economy too soon only to be swallow up by foreign competition. There got to be checks and balances.
At the present time the US is doing so much for Koreans and it is hard for Koreans to accept the US being so fair and so proactive. Trade between two countries have steadly increased and will do so in the future as FTA gets signed. Korea and America are in win-win situation and Koreans know that. And, enjoy the mutual friendship.
Don’t take some Korean losers’ words too seriously. If you are a Korean and live in NewYork, you will still be faced with namecalling “ChingChong”, “slant-eye” and “Chink” because average NewYorkers do not represent Americans and nor do some Seoulites. The administration sets the tone.
Korean people, especially young people, have changed from even one decade ago. They are busy learning English and browsing internet. They are opening their minds to the world and eager to join the world outside Korea. Many of them think about living in Australia, the US or Canada in the future.
Korean people have changed.
As Bob Hope used to say “let me show you what you are protecting”, here is a link to the BoobyBooby girl,
http://www.joins.com/article/2306641.html?ctg=1502
Baduk: “Koreans have suspicions about foreigners’ ulterior motives. If you know about Korean history (getting raped repeatedly by neighbors), that is quite understandable. And, you will agree that sometimes some US corporations do engage in ugly tactics to win market share. It is just healthy for Koreans to question intentions and resist opening up entire Korean economy too soon only to be swallow up by foreign competition. There got to be checks and balances.”
Well, I’ve found that Koreans have great suspicions about other Koreans’ motives. Perhaps such suspiciousness of one’s own kin inevitably leads to a greater suspiciousness of the outsider. There seems to be a widely-held belief that there’s always some trick involved, i.e. mountain is NOT mountain and water is NOT water. Perhaps this is due to the educational system which has to create ever trickier tests each and every year. Is Acoms Razor known here? The shrimp caught between two whales platitude. That’s a nice national identity. Better suited than Dynamic Korea. And the “opening up too soon” gambit; been hearing that one since 1989. Have yet to see anything swallowed up, but Samsung’s dominance of Korea grows year after year. At the next Let’s-Spell-Korea-With-a-C convention could someone offer up Samsungistan as a more appropriate alternative? And of those ugly corporate tactics you speak? Surely you jest. Other than Lee Kun Hee I’m having trouble thinking of any chaebol head that hasn’t spent time in the slammer–and Lee would likely had been indicted had he not hid out in the States. These foreigners and their ideas you suspect have been modern Korea’s catalyst. Korea, left on its own…well, it wouldn’t be Samsungistan.
“the BoobyBooby girl??” puhaha! that is just great stuff dude…u need to grab a bit at the comedy store in LA.
“Well, I’ve found that Koreans have great suspicions about other Koreans’ motives. Perhaps such suspiciousness of one’s own kin inevitably leads to a greater suspiciousness of the outsider.”
Bingo.
You have no ideal how much truth that is if you are Korean, and deal with Koreans regularly. Suspicion of counter party is as Korean as kimchi. Koreans do not believe in both parties can be winners. In the world of Korean culture, there can only be a winner and a loser. And usually, the winners are the clever ones who have the clever tricks up the sleeves, while the loser are the stupid ones. Thus explains why Korean labor and management can’t get along, or why Koreans have such a hard time with the ideal of farm liberalization or even Free Trade. These difficulties and conflicts will not end in Korea unless Koreans themselves start thinking radically different.
Andy,
I was a little suprised at your take on Hasting’s book. I’ve hit it a few times and my take on it was that he was pretty negative about outside involvement in the War especially the Americans.
But, based on your read I’ll go through it again and see if something else doesn’t strike me. A fresh read can do wonders.
Regarding the Chinese in the war, a great account is Chen Jian’s “China’s Road to the Korean War.” and of course Fehrenbach’s “This Kind of War” is the mea culpa for Korean War studies. I would also recommend Hermes’ “Truce Tent and Fighting Front.” His is the only source I know of that details the behind the scenes negotiations between the CPV, Nam Il and Admiral Joy. It also gets into the philosophical battles going on between State Department and War Department. It’s prescient stuff regarding our current situation with the dudes up North…
Baduk says…
2) The media, court and teachers will turn pro-American overnight. No more one-sided reporting. No more lies. And, no excuses for anti-Ameican hooligans. They will be jailed and prosecuted. The government will crack down on anti-American Commies.
// Baduk, that’s fine, but it’s not desirable for freedom and democracy in South Korea. At this point, any kind of continuation of state controlled media control, mass propaganda, and jailing or prosecution for political views is completely undesirable. Let them speak their minds, protest or whatever. Just don’t let the government provide protesters easy access to US military training grounds, and let them be accompanied by tv and newspaper reporters to film the whole thing and make headline news. That’s ridiculous government sanctioned propaganda by using the masses. While sweet talking at the diplomatic table. In no case should the media, court, and teachers turn pro-American overnight just because the ruling President is pro-American. That would be a shame and a giant step backwards. You don’t see the Germans turning pro-American overnight because the new PM is pro-American.
For a behind the scenes lead-up to the Korean War, I would recommend “Under the Loving Care of the Fatherly Leader.” If one is simply interested in how the two Kims have maintained their control, I still recommend it. In the words of my son, who is sitting in Dongducheon right now, “It is spooky.”
wjk,
Korea is a small country. The president of KBS(the biggest TV station) expressed his anti-American views. His underlings, producers, writers or what have you, all fell in line. They will produce anti-American programs only. Or else.
The same is true when this Commie is replaced with pro-American president. All anti-American reporters either leave the station, or change their views overnight to survive. This is called “picking the correct soup line to stand on”. If you choose a wrong line (wrong political view), you are gone. Kapute!
The change occurs literally overnight. And, this is true for all areas of Korean society.
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great blog…
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