UPDATE: In the comments section (and on his own blog), the always insightful Kushibo points out that a failure on the part of the United States, Britain, France, et. al to face up to their own pasts does not, in and of itself, proclude said parties from confronting the Japanese about its “engineering of collective amnesia,” and at any rate, what I have offered is more grounds for other parties to reflect on their own histories than an excuse for Japan not to reflect on its.
Fair enough, I say. In fact, I have never said Japan shouldn’t confront its imperial past. Understanding properly the path your nation has walked is important for all nations. What I do have a problem with, however, is calling some nations to account while letting others slide, especially when the nations doing the calling are themselves nasty-ass former empires. As I responded in my comments, this to me is an exercise in what is known, at least in the United States, as selective enforcement.
Another thing Kushibo raises, and something I expected someone to raise, is the German model:
Even if just about every other nation were to fall far short of the ideal, the fact remains that Imperial Japan’s partner in crime, Germany, has been far, far, far better than Japan at laying out the god-awful truth so that it can be properly analyzed.
Germany, the forerunner in this regard, should be the standard, not our-shit-don’t-stink Brits, French, or even Americans and Koreans (and certainly not the Chinese).
Since the German example is so frequently raised whenever we are talking about Japan, it bears looking into whether the Germans have been so reflective as is commonly believed. Yes, it’s true that Germany has apologized quite sufficiently (or as sufficiently as one possibly can for the kind of crimes it committed) for what it did during World War II. For this, they should be praised (if doing something you should do anyway is praiseworthy). However, the Germans have been much less apologetic concerning atrocities committed prior to World War II. It took until 2004 for Germany to issue anything resembling an apology for its genocidal 1904 campaign against the Herero people of Namibia. And even that apology was made by a cabinet minister, not the German chancellor or president, and the apology has yet to be followed by compensation from either the German state or German corporations that were involved. Nor will you find pictures of the German chancellor in Tanzania dropping to his knees in profound reflection for his country’s brutal suppression of the Maji Maji Rebellion of 1905-1907. No apology has ever been issued for that episode in the white man’s mission to bring civilization to the heart of Africa, although the German Embassy in Dar Es Salaam did issue a statement of regret earlier this year and offered money to renovate the Maji Maji Museum. Big woop.
In fact, while I can assume close to all Germans know about what their country did during World War II, I wonder how many middle and high-school Germans really know about its colonial past. Or, for that matter, how many Germans could find Namibia or Tanzania on a map. Actually, I ask that question in all seriousness, because while my hunch is “not many,” I have no experience with the German education system (or Germany, period), and I’d really like to know, given how often Germany’s collective historical memory is so favorably compared to Japan’s.
Two interesting reads (both from 2004) concerning Germany’s reflection (or lack thereof) on its African colonial past are “Genocide and the history of violent expansionism” and this piece from Deutsche Welle about Germany’s colonial amnesia.
ORIGINAL POST: Over at Foreign Dispatches, Abiola Lapite pens an absolutely brilliant post setting out why Westerners need a big hot cup of STFU when it comes to lecturing Japan about its imperial past:
Note how Mr. Worstall makes the unfounded leap to the conclusion that someone somewhere is asking him to “cough up the dosh” merely by daring to ask for involvement in the commemoration of Britain’s colonial past; his attitude, which is perfectly in line with that of “liberal” Labour minister Gordon Brown, is par for the course where sanctimonious Western whiners about Japan are concerned: “Our adventures in colonial aggression and slave labor are far in the past and only a fool would dare to suggest we dredge up the negative aspects of our ‘mission civilatrice’, but you lot are uniquely evil and unrepentant for entertaining milder forms of the same attitudes which are so commonplace amongst us.”
He concludes:
Hypocritical rhetoric aside, it would actually represent tremendous progress from present conditions for the British, the French and the other former European empire builders to be as forthcoming about the wrongdoings of their ancestors as the Japanese have been about theirs, and until that day comes – which I doubt it ever will – I will continue to disregard anything I read in American or European newspapers about Japan’s “problems” with history as the racist double-standard it is; get the logs out of your own damn eyes before belaboring me with the same motes about Yasukuni, Taro Aso, school textbooks and so forth.
It might sometimes seem that my less-than-outraged attitude toward the way Japan has confronted—or not confronted—its imperial past is driven by some dislike of Korea. Actually, I simply find Korea and China’s criticism of Japan’s past to be historically simplistic, at time politically motivated and almost always diplomatically counterproductive. At the same time, as the victims of Japanese imperialism, I can understand how Koreans and Chinese might be bitter about the whole experience, regardless of how many school, roads or railroads the Japanese may or may not have built in their overseas possessions. In other words, they at least have a right to bitch.
What really gets my goat, through, is when I hear Americans and Europeans taking Japan to task for its past. Example A: Rep. Henry Hyde warning Japanese Prime Minister Koizumi Junichiro to stop visits of the Yasukuni Shrine if he’d like to address Congress. Listening to Seoul of Beijing lecture Tokyo over the Yasukuni Shrine ad nauseum is one thing. But when did the United States—or any other Western power, for that matter—suddenly get the moral authority to lecture the Japanese over a failure to atone for its imperial past? Hey, I’ve got an idea! Rather than lecture Koizumi, perhaps Hyde could show him the way by encouraging American authorities to show something even approximating an honest public discussion of the historic American role in the Philippines, Hawaii and any number of Central American victims of U.S. gunboat diplomacy. Perhaps throw in a mea cupla for the A-bomb and firebombing of Japanese cities as well. Or maybe he can write letters to the British and French to apologize for spending most of the period between the Berlin Conference and the 1960s screwing an obscenely large percentage of the planet’s landmass; it doesn’t take too much time in Africa to realize that the white man’s shit does in fact smell.
Frankly, the idea of Western nations getting on their high horses and lecturing the Japanese is so ludicrous it’s completely beyond comprehension. I mean, we keep on talking about how the Japanese don’t know about their own history. I almost hope that’s the case, because I can’t image how it must look to any Japanese even the least bit familiar with the history of his or her own country to hear the same countries that subjected Japan to the Black Ships, the bombardment of Shimonoseki, the bombardment of Kagoshima, the Harris Treaty (this is an interesting read, BTW) and the Triple Intervention lecturing Tokyo about the evils of imperial aggression. And to think that people wonder why some Japanese view the world through the amoral lens of power politics. Frankly, considering who taught them the rules of the imperial game, I’m surprised any Japanese at all feel sorry for what they did in East Asia.
{ 108 comments… read them below or add one }
Whether France, Britain, or even the US have failed to adequately lay out their wrongdoings from the past is problematic, but it hardly does anything to bolster support for engineering collective amnesia in Japan.
Even if just about every other nation were to fall short of the ideal, the fact remains that Imperial Japan’s partner in crime, Germany, has been far, far, far better than Japan at laying out the god-awful truth so that it can be properly analyzed.
Germany, the forerunner in this regard, should be the standard, not our-shit-don’t-stink Brits, French, or even Americans and Koreans (and certainly not the Chinese).
If it takes Americans to nudge Japan toward the German model, so be it, even if American is less than forthcoming about its skeletons (and is it really? I mean, isn’t just about everyone on the right complaining about American becoming too obsessed with what it’s done wrong?).
Rather than making an argument for not calling the Japanese to account, you’ve offered support for the Brits, the French, the Americans, the Koreans, the Chinese, etc., to also do some soul-searching.
I think what pisses off most Americans about Japan’s sordid past is their sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. Japan knew full well what they were doing at the time, they had planned the sneak attack for months on end practicing bombing mock U.S. military targets.
America won the war, and never received any retributions from Japan. Yet, Japan’s former colonies have racked it in since the Japanese unconditional surrender to the Allied Forces. Mwahahaha! We’ll just take Okinawa & Yokohama — thank you very much Japan.
I love to hear Japanese tell me that, “Hawai’i is actually a Japanese territory.” Japanese children seriously learn this in primary school. Why not just change the Japanese textbooks to read “Japan won WWII”? If the Japanese don’t change their attitude, politics, and textbooks, the Chinese will certainly do it for them in the coming years.
Fair enough, Kushibo, but frankly, what we’re currently looking at is what we’d call in the United States “selective enforcement,” i.e., all the other imperial powers get a free pass on their histories, but the Japanese have to account for theirs. And given how that’s the case, I can’t possibly see how the West can encourage Japan to face up to its past when its not particularly sorry for its own. And to go even further, I get the suspicion that there’s a subcurrent of racism at play here, namely, that European colonialism was some high-minded exercise in bringing civilization to the far corners of the globe while Asian colonialism, represented by Japan, was cruel and barbaric.
And another thing, since you bring up Germany. Germany has, in fact, apologized for its World War II atrocities. Good on them. Atrocities prior to WWII, however, are a different matter. It took the Germans until 2004 to issue an apology for its genocidal campaign against Herero in its former colony of Namibia, and even then, the apology was made by the Minister of Development, not the chancellor or the president, and compensation has yet to be given. Germany, to date, has not apologized for the manner in which it put down the Maji Maji Rebellion, which made the Japanese suppression of the March 3 Independence Movement look downright gentlemanly. Talk to any Tanzanian about Germany’s historical reflection (or the British, for that matter), and they’ll laugh. So perhaps Germany shouldn’t be regarded as the standard by which other countries reflect on their historical misdeads.
I see two arguments intertwined here and maybe they are intrinsically so but for the sake of arguing I would say that there is not an industrialized nation on the planet today that has the qualifications to lecture anyone on the evils of imperialism. What I do take issue with, however, is the manner Japan has in my opinion failed and avoided dealing with the atrocities against at least the people that lived in the countries (if not humanity). In all of Europe, people learn in school about their nations past transgressions and it is something that they are well aware of. Not only that but the governments have policies, programs and laws to prevent those things from being repeated-education is one of them. Japan by comparison refuses to acknowledge that they as a nation did anything wrong and are teaching their citizens that and that is precisely what I and others in North America and Europe take issue with.
As a Brit, and having gone through the British education system, I don’t think it’s fair to say there has been no soul-searching on Britain’s many historical wrongs. In all my time at school and university, I can’t remember a single teacher who spoke of Britain’s colonial past with anything other than a deep disdain.
In fact, I think that Britain has been permeated with a deep sense of shame over this issue, with many (especially middle-class) Brits being loth, at least until the last few years, to adhere to or celebrate any kind of “Western” or “British values.” It became pretty much unacceptable for anyone to criticize, say, foreign cultural practices, on the grounds that “We did so many terrible things. Who are we to pass judgement on anyone?”
I believe that this kind of thinking is prevalent in much of Western Europe — one reason why many Europeans are so bitterly opposed to an interventionist foreign policy, such as going into Iraq.
At any rate, I think a key difference with Japan and the West is that elements of Japanese opinion — including, it seems, some pretty high-ranking government officials — not only avoid an honest discussion of the country’s past, but actually suggest what they did was justified. (Although France had had its problems with this of late, especially regarding Algeria.)
“European colonialism was some high-minded exercise in bringing civilization to the far corners of the globe while Asian colonialism, represented by Japan, was cruel and barbaric.”
To a certain extent, this is truer than you think it is. I don’t think any modern day European colonialism equalled massacres like Nanjing which happened in a very short period of time, and in its intensity and cruelty. To compare something like that to Europe, you’d have to go back to the middle age days when armies pillaged and raped enemy villages.
What the Japanese did to allied POWs is a disgrace…beyond anything before or since. Henry Hyde hasn’t forgotten. This is about right and wrong, not a game of who’s worse.
It is one thing to avoid talking about painful historical events, it is yet another to worship the sick f**kers that ordered atrocities. That is the difference. Period.
Danger Mouse wrote; “At any rate, I think a key difference with Japan and the West is that elements of Japanese opinion — including, it seems, some pretty high-ranking government officials — not only avoid an honest discussion of the country’s past, but actually suggest what they did was justified. (Although France had had its problems with this of late, especially regarding Algeria.) ”
What are you talking about?? The emperor, the prime minister, and other representatives of the Japanese government have issued apologies. Koizumi’s official apology at the Asia-Africa summit was ratified by the Diet of Japan. When did Western countries do the same??? If justice has any meaning it has to be applied evenly and universally.
China’s Textbooks Twist and Omit History
By HOWARD W. FRENCH
ABSTRACT – Several of most widely used history textbooks in China’s high school classrooms reveal mishmash of historical details that many Chinese educational experts themselves say are highly selective and often provide deeply distorted view of recent past; most Chinese students finish high school convinced that their country has fought wars only in self-defense, never aggressively or in conquest, and they learn nothing of 30 million who died from famine following Mao Zedong’s Great Leap Forward in 1950′s; many academics say way history is taught in China forces even best teachers to bob and weave around anything deemed delicate by country’s leaders and leaves students confused about their own country’s place in world.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50A14FC3F550C758CDDAB0994DC404482&incamp=archive:search
김병훈씨 ’역사를 왜곡하는 한국인’ 출간
중국의 동북공정, 일본의 역사교과서 왜곡과 매한가지로 한국 역시 역사를 왜곡하고 있다는 비판을 담은 ’역사를 왜곡하는 한국인’(반디)이 출간됐다.
일간스포츠와 한국일보 기자로 일한 저자 김병훈 씨는 현재 고교에서 사용되고 있는 국정 국사교과서와 신문 방송에 등장하는 한국인의 역사인식이 상식에 벗어난 왜곡된 역사를 담고 있다고 비판한다.
대체로 한국의 역사가 주로 일본 깎아내리기, 위대한 단일민족의 역사 만들기, 비극적인 현대사 모른 체 하기라는 왜곡된 내용도 포함하고 있다는 것.
저자는 하인즈 워드의 방한을 맞아 도마에 오른 ’단일민족론’이 역사적 근거가 전혀 없다며 기존의 인식에 반론을 펼친다. 중국의 망명인이 왕의 자리에 올랐던 위만조선에서 보듯 역사는 고대부터 중국 등 여러 나라 사람들이 건너와 한민족을 구성했음을 보여준다는 것이다. 국제적인 교역이 두드려졌던 고려 시대에 중국 송나라, 거란, 위구르, 아랍인 등이 한민족의 일원이 됐고, 조선시대에는 여진족과 함께 일본인, 네덜란드인(박연)까지 한국인이 됐다는 사실도 지적한다.
또한 교과서에는 없지만 신문ㆍ방송에 자주 등장하는 ’일본 천황이 백제인의 후손’이라는 주장에 대해서도 “그렇다면 노무현 대통령은 중국인”이라고 반박한다. 백제 혈통임이 유력하다는 일본 천황들이 모두 6세기 이전 인물인데 반해, 노대통령의 선조는 877년 한국에 건너온 중국인이기 때문이라는 것이다.
또한 국사교과서가 1945년 해방 후 100만 명 이상이 희생된 양민 학살과 같은 현대사의 비극을 모른 체 한다고 주장하기도 한다. 일제 36년 동안 우리 민족이 겪은 고통은 자세히 열거하면서 그보다 짧은 시간에 더 많은 사람이 학살된 역사에는 눈을 감고 있다는 비판이다.
이외에도 신라 화랑, 고려시대 민중과 삼별초의 항쟁도 ’역사 꾸미기’라고 비판하며, 객관적인 역사인식의 필요성을 역설한다. 344쪽. 1만2천원.
http://www.chosun.com/culture/news/200605/200605190131.html
“European colonialism was some high-minded exercise in bringing civilization to the far corners of the globe while Asian colonialism, represented by Japan, was cruel and barbaric.”
I agree.
cm wrote:
“To a certain extent, this is truer than you think it is. I don’t think any modern day European colonialism equalled massacres like Nanjing which happened in a very short period of time, and in its intensity and cruelty. To compare something like that to Europe, you’d have to go back to the middle age days when armies pillaged and raped enemy villages.”
I totally agree.
Unlike the British, Australians or Americans, the Japanese & Germans during the WWII era engaged in, at least, the following:
1) Sneak attacks.
2) Mass murders/genocide.
3) Starving its colonies/territories.
4) Unusually cruel treatment of prisoners –
conducted ‘scientific experiments’ on its prisoners.
5) Looting & pillaging.
6) The most heinous of all the war crimes was the systematic sexual torture of so many (comfort & concentration camp) women, most of which were in their early teens.
genie201—I don’t want to turn this into a discussion about whether the Koreans are honest about their history, although the Chosun book review was very interesting.
CM and Remort: I think this is why perhaps its the West, not the Japanese, are in the most dire need of historical reflection. I will grant, however, that Japanese and German imperialism was perhaps unusally intense, but then again, both countries started late and had to fit their nastiness into a relatively short time span (the same could be said for Italian imperialism, which at one point even resorted to poison gas attacks against the Ethiopians—no apology given), as opposed to the established imperial powers, which had gotten in a good part of their nastiness in the preceeding decades and were content simply to crack skulls to maintain what they had, although later incidents like the British repression of the Mau Mau rebellion, the failed Dutch “police action” to reassert control over Indonesia (for which an apology of sorts was given in 2005) and the French wars in Indochina and Algeria indicated that the older players could still play ugly when they wanted.
I think the comparisons are amount to a red herring. They might be interesting but the facts about Japanese amnesia are fairly clear. And there is no shortage of literature to prove it. A good place to start is Herbert P. Bix’s Pulitzer Prize winning Hirohito and the Making of Modern Japan.
Robert… didn’t your comments sections used to have an edit function?
Here’s some historical reflection:
Germany and Japan would have gone to any end to have won WWII. It’s commonly known that Germany (Heisenberg) simply miscalculated the amount of uranium to achieve critical mass, or Germany & Japan would have easily won WWII. In fact, when Heisenberg heard about the nuclear detonation over Hiroshima, he believed it was just Allied propaganda.
Clearly a conventional nuclear weapon wasn’t required when a dirty nuke could have killed millions had it been deployed over London or San Francisco as planned by the Japanese. Also, at the time of Japan’s unconditional surrender, it had planned to detonate dirty bombs on several U.S. targets.
Nazi nuke diagram uncovered:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4598955.stm
Don’t forget about the German submarine that was captured carrying a German jet and enriched uranium, that was intended to be delivered to Japan.
That’s what’s interesting. Yes, the facts about Japanese amnesia might be faily clear, but however insufficient their historical recollection may be, it doesn’t even begin to compare with the West’s historical amnesia. As unsatisfactory as Japanese apologies may or may not have been, at least they issued an apology, which is more than we can say for the British to the Irish for 700 years of colonial rule, even if we count Tony Blair’s 1997 quasi-apology for the Potato Famine. And you’ll permit to disagree that these comparisons amount to a red herring. To single out Japan makes a mockery of the whole principle that states should honestly reflect on their pasts. If we’re going to call one state out, we’d better call them all out, or else who can blame the Japanese right for claiming that all this hub-bub about Japan’s past is, at best, winner’s justice, and at worst, an exercise in white racism. Again, I’d like to stress that I’m not saying Japan shouldn’t come clean on its own. What I am saying, however, is that people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.
Remort—That’s all very fine and good, except you’re leaving out one thing. One country DID get the calculations right, and DID detonate nuclear devices over major population centers. Even if we grant that most Japanese were unaware of their country’s plans to dastardly explode dirty bombs over San Francisco (assuming that the story is true), don’t you think the United States would be in a rather disadvantaged position to lecture Tokyo about the evils of the military use of the atom?
If Koizumi seriously wants to shed the Japanese neo-nationalism stigma, why doesn’t he visit the WWII war memorials in Washington D.C., London, Seoul, and Canberra?
So are you saying that people are entitled to do BAD things because someone else has done WORSE things??
Sure sounds to me like a handy excuse. However you NEED to be responsible for your own actions and
not try to justify them by saying “Oh, but they done worse”.
Here is a report about Westerners reaction to the demands from the colonized countries.
“The African group never got the clear apology for slavery it wanted from the descendants of those who profited.
The Arab group did not get the platform they wanted to make their points about Israel.
And Europe did not quite escape the notion that it was up to them to make reparations for the past.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1533415.stm
“The African group never got the clear apology for slavery it wanted from the descendants of those who profited.”
Do you mean the Africans that had profited from rounding up other Africans and sold them to Westerners? If you’re speaking about in America, you must be joking.
“The Arab group did not get the platform they wanted to make their points about Israel.”
The IAEA is suppose to be taking care of that desire Hamas has about eliminating Israel.
“And Europe did not quite escape the notion that it was up to them to make reparations for the past.”
Could you be more specific?
genie201:
No. What I am saying is that badgering one country to apologize for things it had already done while not doing the same to others who did the same and worse is wrong. Especially when the ones doing the badgering are the ones who did worse.
Do you see the Europeans apologizing? Neither do I. In fact, France is compensating and honoring its former colonial officials and will begin school programs “to recognise the positive role of the French presence overseas, especially in north Africa, and give an eminent place … to the sacrifices of fighters for the French army raised in these territories.” And Algeria’s calls for an apology have gone unanswered. And mark my words, if an apology does come, it will be one of those half-hearted statements of regret about the painful history between the two countries that we love to bash the Japanese for.
Remort:
Probably the same reason Western leaders don’t seem to be making the rounds at all their former colonial possessions making apologies. Unless, of course, you mean to say that it’s important for Japan to appear sufficiently apologetic, while everyone else can continue to come off as unrepentent imperial bastards.
The age of imperialism has passed. How long do we have to dwell on the past, and to what ends?
What most Koreans want is to get back at Japan because they feel slighted by and are therefore biased against the Japanese. It’s wounded racial pride. So we continue to bicker over this and that aspect of history.
Robert, the US did in fact use the atom bomb in Japan. It was a new technology and utterly devastating and shocking to everyone everywhere. Consequently the US has never since employed nuclear weapons or threatened the use of them. And, better than an apology, the US has been active in nonproliferation. Is this hypocracy? No, it’s a form of responsibility far more meaningful than any apology.
Now, if all former colonialists everywhere apologize tommorrow for all their past infractions, will this make any difference at all? Speaking as someone on this peninsula, I can say from experience that any such apology will simply be rejected as insincere. The bottom line is that we NEED to feel victimized and self righteous, and we would have it no other way. We are not interested in friendship but capitulation. So maybe the noble thing to do would be for us to apologize to Japan instead, admitting that we hold grudges against them for past wrongs and that we are now secure enough to forgive and move on.
Robert wrote:
“Even if we grant that most Japanese were unaware of their country’s plans to dastardly explode dirty bombs over San Francisco (assuming that the story is true), don’t you think the United States would be in a rather disadvantaged position to lecture Tokyo about the evils of the military use of the atom?”
I’m sure most Americans and our allies had no idea we were going to use nuclear weapons before the first one was dropped.
But to answer you question, no, I don’t in fact, given: 1) the atrocities the Japanese committed against their colonies — shitty track record; 2) the Japanese had started the conflict with a sneak attack on the U.S. Prior to this, the U.S. had absolutely no intention of entering any war given the popular sentiment of Americans to remain free of foreign entanglements. The fact of the matter is, by the U.S. having used nuclear weapons against Japan, it brought a quicker end to the war and saved many lives of both Allied Forces and Japanese — it’s their fault we had to enter the conflict; 3) America seriously considered the use of nuclear force against China, Russia, and North Korea during the Korean War, but ultimately decided against it — probably a poor decision that led to horrible results in later conflicts we were involved in due to the Russians backing our enemies; and, 4) the Japanese and Germans would have used nuclear weapons against its enemies had it had the chance to do so — no questions about this, Japanese were willing to fight to the very end had their been a land-invasion by Allied Forces.
In war, the winner makes up the rules as they go, and the loser swallows its pride. In retrospect, the Allied Forces should have appeased the former-Japanese colonies with awarding them each a Japanese island for payment of war crimes committed against them for the pain, humiliation, and suffering it so willfully dished out without any mercy.
Remort wrote:
The firebombing of Japanese cities were “mass murder,” as were the two atomic bombings.
The Japanese did not have the same agenda as the Germans, so they should be considered carbon-copies. Someone up above said that the Japanese are not willing to engage in honest discussion, but I think it is the other way around. Koreans, Chinese, and even the allies are the ones do not seem willing to engage in honest discussion.
The US and her allies engaged in a lot of wartime propanganda to vilify the Japanese. For example, if anyone has some free time, rent a movie called “The Jack London Story,” which was made in 1943. There is a scene in the movie where a group of Japanese soldiers who are laughing hyterically while they are machine-gunning down a group of Russian POWs drinking at a well. I am not saying that the Japanese were nice during World War II, but I do not think they were as bad as people were made to believe. Besides, the allies were not that nice, either.
I read an article last year, I think, that talked about how there were very few Japanese soldiers taken prisoner during World War II. Many say that it was because the Japanese did not believe in surrender, but the article said that part of the reason was because some allied officers thought it was too much trouble to take prisoners, and there was also the revenge factor.
Pearl Harbor was a sneak attack on military facilities, but the two atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the fire bombing of Japanese cities were targeting more than just military facilities. Maybe because it was “too much trouble” for the allies to pick and choose their targets? When you consider the results, is there really that much difference between Nanking and the firebombing of Tokyo, which killed an estimated 100,000 people?
gbevers wrote:
“When you consider the results, is there really that much difference between Nanking and the firebombing of Tokyo, which killed an estimated 100,000 people?”
Yes, extreme polar-opposites. China will most assuredly clear up any confusion in the matter in the very near future. After the Japanese raped and murdered in Shanghai, they raped, pillaged, and burnt down everything they could on their way to killing 300,000 Chinese in Nanking.
The former Japanese-colonist would have been quite happy with the absolute destruction of Japan, all of it. In reality Japan received way less than they deserved in terms of punishment, they were extremely fortunate and very lucky only a few Japanese cities were destroyed.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki (and the original target) were fair game, the Japanese had military personnel stationed there.
I had to rub my eyes after reading this crap.
“The firebombing of Japanese cities were “mass murder,” as were the two atomic bombings.”
They started it. Remember that.
“The US and her allies engaged in a lot of wartime propanganda to vilify the Japanese.”
Let’s see, and the Japanese were totally innocent themselves.
“For example, if anyone has some free time, rent a movie called “The Jack London Story,” which was made in 1943. There is a scene in the movie where a group of Japanese soldiers who are laughing hyterically while they are machine-gunning down a group of Russian POWs drinking at a well.”
Well, these are the same nice chaps that conducted germ experiements on civilians of lower race and POW’s, starved, and tortured tens of thousands of allied prisoners of wars in horrible concentration camps.
“I am not saying that the Japanese were nice during World War II, but I do not think they were as bad as people were made to believe. Besides, the allies were not that nice, either.”
Give me a break, OK? Tell that to the US and British POW’s who were starved down to 30 pounds.
Someone asked “How long do we have to dwell on the past, and to what ends?”
To that I reply, as long as Japanese war apologists continue to whitewash, excuse, admire, and worship the Japanese record of mass genocides, then there will be counter reactions. Every action must have a reaction.
Remort,
Basically, your view is the Chinese communist party’s point of view. Primary documents don’t agree with China’s 300,000 figure(Searle Bates, a member of the Safety Zone Committee gave a figure of 40,000. The War Crimes Trial gave figures of 50,000 Chinese soldiers killed and 12,000 civilians.). If you are a Korean, why don’t you actively seek apology/payment from China when 400,000 soldiers and nearly one million of its people were killed in the Korean War? The Chinese government teach people that it was the United States that invaded North Korea and China helped to repel the foreign invaders. Why not protest against that??
“The US and her allies engaged in a lot of wartime propanganda to vilify the Japanese.”
GMAFB, Japan got way less than their actions deserved.
Tokyo Rose is the most famous of all Japanese wartime propaganda. But have a look at this Japanese progaganda crap.
http://www.2bangkok.com/wwiipropaganda.shtml
Remort,
Why can’t you answer my question? Why don’t Koreans actively seek apology/payment from China when 400,000 soldiers and nearly one million of its people were killed in the Korean War? Why is there such a double standard??
Remort wrote:
Women and children killed in the firebombings got what they deserved? Maybe that is also what the Japanese were thinking when they were killing women and children in Nanking or when they captured and killed allied pilots who were firebombing their cities.
The firebombing compaign of Japanese cities was a longterm terror campaign that killed more civilians than the two atomic bombs. Why are Japan’s terror tactics described as war crimes, but those of the allies are not?
And it’s not like Gen. Curtis Lemay, who orchestrated the bombings, wasn’t frank about what his fate would have been if the U.S. had lost:
genie201 wrote:
“Basically, your view is the Chinese communist party’s point of view. Primary documents don’t agree with China’s 300,000 figure(Searle Bates, a member of the Safety Zone Committee gave a figure of 40,000.”
I’d lean toward China’s figures of 300,000 murdered being more accurate given they had better access to family census records & information in THEIR OWN COUNTRY versus Japan’s figure of only 100,000 murdered Chinese.
genie201 wrote:
“Why can’t you answer my question? Why don’t Koreans actively seek apology/payment from China when 400,000 soldiers and nearly one million of its people were killed in the Korean War? Why is there such a double standard??”
The fact of the matter is, during Japan’s second colonization of Korea, the Japanese military raped, tortured, and killed innocent Koreans — pretty unneighborly of them. I believe the most logical reason why Koreans don’t seek any sort or apology or payment from China (and China’s cummunist friends like North Korea & Russia) is that, China like Korea is also viewed as a victim of Japan’s unwarranted militaristic aggression. Historically, China has always protected Korea’s interests and respected its autonomy clear back to the Three Kingdom period.
gbevers wrote:
“Women and children killed in the firebombings got what they deserved?”
Yes, it’s the unfortunate consequence of having killed innocent Americans in their sleep without any declaration of war in place, call it repayment if you like. Maybe Japan will pick their fights a bit more intelligently in the future and not engage in sneaky surprise attacks without declaring war first.
But, the actual reason for the “firebombings” was simple, Japan had refused to surrender until they witnessed first-hand the wicked power of the atomic bombs. Only then, after 2 nuclear bombs were detonated, did they finally realize they had lost the war.
“The age of imperialism has passed. How long do we have to dwell on the past, and to what ends?”
What kind of Neo-globulist tripe did you swallow to make such a statement as this? Sounds like what publishers put on the blurb of a science-fiction novel.
I give up. What is Neo-globulist tripe, anyway? Is this what passes for argument these days?
And to claim moral high ground for the US’ nuclear weapons policy is beyond the absurd.
How so? Is your position self-validating and exempt from the requirements of evidential or logical support? On what grounds do you presume to claim the moral high ground for your own argument?
Remort wrote:
Sorry, but those are not facts. The same statement could be used for almost any country in the world. Koreans do not like to list the facts because the facts do stimulate the imagination as much Romort’s very vague and misleading statement.
When Koreans are forced to list the facts of how they were mistreated during Korea’s colonial period, they usually start by listing the March 1 Movement, when, according to Japanese records, 553 people were killed and 12,000 were arrested in the process of putting down a rebellion that lasted for months. In contrast, the South Korean governement killed between 30,000 to 60,000 Koreans when they put down the Jeju Rebellion in 1948, which seems to show that the Japanese were a lot less brutal than the South Koreans were. In fact, about 40,000 Koreans fled to Japan to escape being killed.
Another fact of Japanese oppression that Koreans list is that they were forced to speak Japanese, but the Koreans I have talked with say that they only had to speak Japanese in the classrooms. Even in the US, there English-only movements.
Koreans also say that they were forced to change their names, but that is not really true. The Japanese may have given Koreans incentives to adopt Japanese style names, but they still had a choice. Many Koreans wanted Japanese names because it would help them assimulate and avoid discrimination in Japanese society.
The Comfort Women issue is also brought up, saying that it was forced prostitution, but the Japanese say that it was not forced, or, at least, not meant to be. They say that private individuals may have deceived women or, in some cases forced them into prostitution, but that that was not military policy. By the way, there is forced prostitution in Korea today, and many Korean officials turn a blind eye to it.
Koreans may have been discriminated against in colonial Korea, just as blacks and other minorities were discriminated against in the US during that time, but Koreans had legal rights, and there was probably as much murder, torture, and rape in the United States and other countries as there was colonial Korea.
Korean was an ally to Japan; China was an enemy, yet Koreans would have people believe that they were treated the same way the Chinese were treated, which is simply not true.
I have a question for you all…
How long do you think the historical ‘statute of limitations’ should be?
For example, as someone whose ancestors hail from the British Isles and Scotland, I’m sure everyone would consider me a crank were I to bitch and rail against Scandinavians and Danes as “criminal Vikings who plundered my country and have never apologized”. The reason of course, is that the Viking pillaging of the British Isles is so far in the past that no one feels a personal resentment about such remote history.
I asked some of my Korean buddies about this in regard to Japan, and while they immediately announced that Japanese colonization would never be forgiven or forgotten, they did on further questioning concede that they doubted realistically that Koreans in 2100 would be upset as those now, and that a Korean in 2200 shouting about the issue would probably be a crank, as in my Viking example above.
So I ask you all, not just in regards to Korea: when does or should historical crimes become ‘ancient history’ ?
Hugh, Koreans will still be pissed off in 2500
Bee Man will be a venerated hero with a statue in Kwanghwamun.
If you can, please keep the discussion away from Korea’s historical issues with Japan. That’s not what the post was about.
Korea’s historical issues with Japan are very relevant to this post since Korea is one of the main actors in calling for Japan to do more to address its past. In fact, the political influence of the victimized (or those who claim victimization) makes all the difference in this debate, and we can see from recent events that Korea has little clout internationally, although that may change if Ban Ki-moon becomes the UN head.
Robert – You forget about the one big difference with Japan (and Germany) compared to the Western European colonial powers — Japan was a budding bourgeois state with growing democratic structures, but descended into fascism. Japan (like Germany) had free(ish) newspapers, judiciary, and other secondary democratic structures… But for some reason, the state (with the tacit compliance by its citizens) made a deliberate and significant move away from those values.
England, the US, France, etc. had people who liked fascism and other anti-democratic models, but those people did not win out. Those countries may have committed horrid acts in their colonial days, but the basic march of their governments was toward greater freedom, liberalization and democracy. In fact, the gross contrast between the freedoms advocated in the mother country and the lack of freedom in their colonies has been a huge subject that has been loudly explored by historians.
Korea, on the other hand, came upon democracy much more recently, and so (I think) its past deserves to be judged differently. China has never really had democracy.
All that said, I’m not a big fan of government apologies about much of anything. I’m much more a fan of trying to get at (loaded phrase alert) the truth of history, in as open and honest a way possible. To me, the raw facts, clearly stated, say far more about the terrible things a country has done than all the hand-wrining and crocodile tears in the world.
Two things:
1. Cut the moral equivalence crap. The “white man = bad; colored man = good” being taught in schools, and evidently in Marmot’s home town, will be the downfall of civilization if it doesn’t stop. The U.K. is already suffering big time from this guilt syndrome as someone noted above.
2. Only pussies require apologies. Recognize that not everyone is good, deal with problems as they come up, and move on in life.
Putting aside the moral question for a moment, Kofi Annan had it right in his comments in Tokyo last week. Realpolitic demands that Tokyo leaders take the initiative in settling the history question since the new power on the block, Beijing, is increasingly calling the shots in Asia. This is not the nineteen sixties when a wealthy Japan could look down its nose and snub an isolated China in the midst of the craziness of the Cultural Revolution. Now Yasukuni visits equal NO UN Security Council seat, NO seat at the table in determining the future of the most dynamic region in the world,and increasing marginalization for Japan…
Koizumi Shrine Visits Hurt Japan at UN, Annan Says (Update1)
May 18 (Bloomberg) — Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi’s visits to a Tokyo shrine which memorializes war criminals, may impede the country’s efforts to win a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council, said Secretary- General Kofi Annan.
Koizumi’s policy of visiting Yasukuni shrine annually “hasn’t helped” Japan’s chances, Annan said at a news conference in Tokyo. “I don’t think this is only limited to the Council issue. It has raised some tensions in the region to which I think we need to make some gestures to put behind us.”
The visits to the shrine have prompted outrage from China and South Korea, who view Yasukuni as a symbol of Japan’s military occupation of Asia 60 years ago. There are 14 Class A war criminals enshrined among the more than 2 million dead commemorated.
Japan, Germany, India and Brazil are seeking permanent seats on the UN’s most powerful panel. The 15-member Security Council, including the five permanent members — the U.S., China, Russia, the U.K. and France — was established at the end of World War II and has the power to order economic sanctions or military action against nations deemed aggressors.
`Stupid’ Strategy
Koizumi’s UN strategy “is really stupid,” said Koichi Nakano, professor of political science at Sophia University in Tokyo. The Prime Minister “goes to Yasukuni while saying we also want a seat on the Security Council. That’s not going to work.”
Last week, Japan’s biggest executive lobby group urged Koizumi to stop visiting Yasukuni to improve relations with China.
China and South Korea canceled planned summits after the most recent of Koizumi’s five visits as prime minister on Oct. 17. Koizumi, who became prime minister in 2001, says the purpose of the visits is to mourn the country’s war dead and to pledge Japan will never again wage a war of aggression.
The arguments over Japan’s wartime past have impeded progress in other talks between Japan and China, such as resolving a dispute over gas drilling rights in the seas between the countries. Japan needs to resolve the issue before relations can be restored to normal, China’s government has said.
South Korea and Japan are also arguing over the ownership of islands that lie between the two countries that have been controlled by South Korea for the past five decades.
New Textbooks
Japan’s neighbors also objected to the education ministry’s approval of new school textbooks last April that they say gloss over Japanese wartime atrocities. The textbooks sparked three weekends of violent riots in Beijing and other Chinese cities with protesters attacking Japanese stores, restaurants and other businesses. Japan and China are Asia’s biggest trading partners.
“The countries in the region know each other well and they have been observing each other and they share a certain history,” said Annan. “They are all aware of what irritates, worries, or provokes the other side and they will have to assess the situation for themselves and determine what changes one has to make to smooth relationships.”
To contact the reporter on this story:
Daisuke Takato in Tokyo at dtakato@bloomberg.net
“China’s Selective Memory”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61708-2005Apr17.html
“Well, you might say, how a nation treats its internal history is less relevant to its qualifications for the Security Council than whether it teaches its children honestly about its wars with other nations. A dubious proposition, but no matter; as the Times found in its review of textbooks, Chinese children do not learn of their nation’s invasion of Tibet (1950) or aggression against Vietnam (1979). And they are taught that Japan was defeated in World War II by Chinese Communist guerrillas; Pearl Harbor, Iwo Jima and Midway don’t figure in.
“Facing up to history squarely” isn’t easy for any country. Americans don’t agree on how to remember the Confederacy. Russia can’t yet admit to Soviet depredations in the Baltic republics. And, yes, Japan too often sees itself purely as a victim of World War II.
But in countries that permit open debate, historical interpretations can be constantly challenged, revised, maybe brought closer to the truth. In dictatorships that use history as one more tool to maintain power, there’s no such hope.
China’s Communists used to find it useful to vilify Russia in their history texts. These days, for reasons of China’s aspirations to lead Asia, Japan makes a more convenient villain. Next year might be America’s turn. The reasons may be complex, but none of them has much to do with facing history squarely.”
After going through Mr. Lapite’s post a few times now I have to say that his tone is what makes his argument so compelling. For people really concerned about voicing an opinion on Japan’s past I don’t think he is calling for them to be silent. It’s the manner in which SOME westerners toot the morality horn and go to feverish extents to research the horrors of Imperial Japan while showing utter disinterest in their own country’s history that is being called into question. In fact, I would think as well that both Mr.’s Marmot and Kushibo (in his own words marmot’s left-wing alter ego) who both approach this issue in the right frame mind, I think, would agree that if hypocrites never spoke out about important issues like this the world would be a silent planet indeed.
With that said, it’s nice when people can temper their hypocrisy and show some understanding of their own past before jumping into the fray, lightning bolts aflingin…
Regarding the German model, Robert brought up the imbalance of emphasis on WWII issues relative to pre-WWII German state behavior. I think the comparison between Japan and Germany breaks down long before that. I’m simply not comfortable with the statement that Germany apologized for WWII and Japan didn’t. Germany had Russian troops (pissed off ones at that) marching across the eastern half of the country ready to exact punishment. Meanwhile allied troops were publicly opening concentration camps for the world to see including German citizens who had lived with this stuff in their own back yards. The entire world was witness to the horrors of what the German citizenry had allowed to take place in their own territory. Further, unconditional surrender was literally forced from them by virtue of being completely overrun with no organized leadership left to decide otherwise. Japan, no matter what anyone says, never had the war brought home to them in that manner. Unconditional surrender was in fact very conditional in that an organized leadership in Japan was able to decide on its own without the presence of foreign troops in the capital city. There was never any systematic march of US or Russian troops across the main Japanese islands to alert the populace of what their own military had attracted. POW and Korean slave labor aside, the Japanese citizens never had to witness what their troops had done because it was all outside of the Japanese islands. And please don’t bring up the fire-bombings. No matter how devastating, it’s not the same as entire villages being abandoned in the face of oncoming troops. What all of this means is that Germany had no choice but to offer apologies and to face up to the horrors their nation had committed. Japan was distant enough from its army’s atrocities that the practical need for apology never set in.
For westerners concerned with Japan’s history I would say keep up the pressure but be ready to answer questions regarding you own country. As well, remember that often it is precisely political pressure from outside that makes countries face the music. I would submit that America has in recent years dealt with the issue of slavery both in the media and in primary education with much more honesty and openness than it has dealt with its Jacksonian-era, and later, treatment of the Indians. Why is this?? Political pressure from the black community, Europe, and Africa I think has a lot to do with it. The Native American community simply hasn’t had the same level of support in pressing for educational reform.
For gbevers, much of what you wrote is essentially true but again it’s a matter of tone. In contrast from Mr. Lapite, your tone makes it sound like you think everything the Japanese did was ok and the entire world should fall on its sword before uttering any criticism of the almighty Japanese. If you want people to listen you can just make them angry, but if you want them to consider your ideas you have to find a way to moderate your tone and agree on something.
“The firebombing compaign of Japanese cities was a longterm terror campaign that killed more civilians than the two atomic bombs. Why are Japan’s terror tactics described as war crimes, but those of the allies are not?”
Because the allies were responding to what Japan initiated, in order to end the war instead of Japan’s intent on spreading it. Is that really hard to understand?
“Because the allies were responding to what Japan initiated, in order to end the war instead of Japan’s intent on spreading it. Is that really hard to understand?”
How did Japan initiate the war? By attacking Pearl Harbor? I wonder what American troops were doing at Pearl Harbor. I thought Hawaii belonged to Queen Lilkuolani.
M_fan proves that there is life on other planets, ’cause he’s most definitely living somewhere other than on Earth. M_kay?
” In dictatorships that use history as one more tool to maintain power, there’s no such hope.”
It is actually not very easy to manipulate the minds of the people with propaganda, believe it or not. Take it from someone that lived under the dictatorship of Dr. Mahathir. Back in the 80s, the only access to newspaper that I had were all gahmen mouthpieces. Yet, all of us always knew it was not writing the real scoop. Occasionally, an underground paper would be printed to feed us the real scandal or some foreign press would print it, and that piece of magazine got banned. Then someone would rush across to Singapore and smulggle a copy over and we read it behind closed doors.
There were of course people who were “brainwashed” by the propaganda. But from my observation, these people wanted to be brainwashed. The people who were brainwashed were the people who benefited from Dr. M’s rule – his cronies and such. They benefit from that propaganda – they believed it in order to make others believe.
When it is open knowledge that the press is controlled, very few people are naive enough to squarely believe what they read. It is actually in countries where their citizens are not aware of the subtle ways in which their press is controlled, and they actaully beleive that the press in their country is free, that is when they get lied to. When the press is always controlled, you always know that it is not printing out the whole truth and you naturally develop a tendency to think critically and ask questions. In Malaysia, we only believe the “Business Section” of the newspaper.
M_kay?
“”Koizumi’s UN strategy “is really stupid,’’ said Koichi Nakano, professor of political science at Sophia University in Tokyo. The Prime Minister “goes to Yasukuni while saying we also want a seat on the Security Council. That’s not going to work.’’”"
I do not believe this is stupid. I believe darn well that Koizumi know that his bid for UN will fail. But he still did it.
He is in fact setting the stage for Round 2. Round 2 will come some time in the future, maybe in 10 years or 20 years. He did not expect to get a seat in Round 1. That would be too easy. Round 1 is just to annouce to everyone that Japan has the intention and to give a chance for people to think about the issue and finally reject. But in Round 2, people will be more acceptable to the idea.
doink…doink…doink…the sound of Mayhem_Fan’s head bouncing on a rubber mat. It’s ok buddy, but you really should wear a helmet for the beating you take here.
mahathir_fan, do Big Fat Boring Liars – as you seem to be – have gainful employment and their own place to live, or is it all day in the basement at Mom and Dad’s?
gbevers scribbled:
“Sorry, but those are not facts. The same statement could be used for almost any country in the world. Koreans do not like to list the facts because the facts do stimulate the imagination as much Romort’s very vague and misleading statement.”
Do you really expect anyone to buy this Japanese apologist viewpoint, that Japan’s former colonies lied about being raped, tortured and killed by the Japanese? I’m sure you’d love for everyone to believe that there were no victims and they all skipped around, sang songs and picked flowers all day long under Japanese colonial rule. You’re welcome to continue trying to whitewash Japan’s sordid colonial past, but their atrocities are just too well-documented for anyone to believe what you’re trying to say for even hardcore Japanese-nationalists, much less their victims and victors to believe.
The fact remains that modern Japan continues to embrace its shameful past imperial accomplishments without acknowledging its criminal actions and mistakes.
Japan clearly lost a war it had started, and simply needs to understand that its motives were evil, and exploitative. If Japan fails to realize this now without making amends in a painfully sincere manner, their past-actions are subject to being avenged by its victims in perpetuity.
Remort wrote:
If they are so well documented, then please give us a short list of five of the atrocities that the Japanese committed against their colonial subjects, and please be sure to include the dates and places they took place.
This just in. In a stunning turn of events, the Sankei Shimbun has just reported they have uncovered a vast conspiracy to pin the rap on Japan for purported atrocities committed in WWII. The article details how the leaders of Asian countries got together and hatched the devious plot to make Japan appear responsible for marching across Asia killing Asians of every nation along the way. Further, they have proven that the glorious Japanese machine was clearly not responsible for the actions of comfort women; they voluntarily gave themselves to their Imperial protector. And alas, the tales of POWs’ sufferings throughout the south pacific have clearly been proven to be tales and nothing more.
It appears the entire world, especially China and Korea, owes Japan a huge apology for this grievous distortion of history and for daring to insult the pure motives of the rising sun in its quest to liberate Asia.
Reported by The Beaver
Haisan—It’s not that I forgot that difference, which is certainly valid. It’s just I’m not sure if its relevant. When Japan is asked to account and repent, it’s not being asked to repent for the collapse of the Taisho democracy and the mass repression of the Japanese people by their own government. It’s being called to account for what it did outside its borders, and in that regard, I ask whether Japan’s behavior, while outrageous in many regards, was any more outrageous than any other colonial power. I don’t want to appear overly Kantian, but if we’re going to engage in the hypocricy of badgering Japan over its imperial past while everyone else gets a free pass, all it’s going to do is give ammunition to the Japanese right who argue this whole “apology” thing is just an exercise in victor’s justice. And if we’re not going to call everyone out, we might as well just let history be history and drop it.
Wedge—I never said the white man was bad and the colored man was good. All I did was object to the opposite, namely, that the white man’s imperialism was good while the colored man’s imperialism was bad. And as for the moral relativism, I’m not sure what you mean. It’s not like I was equating shoplifting with the Holocaust. I mean, you don’t think it’s that far of a stretch to compare Japanese imperialism and Western imperialism, do you?
“When it is open knowledge that the press is controlled, very few people are naive enough to squarely believe what they read. It is actually in countries where their citizens are not aware of the subtle ways in which their press is controlled, and they actaully beleive that the press in their country is free, that is when they get lied to. When the press is always controlled, you always know that it is not printing out the whole truth and you naturally develop a tendency to think critically and ask questions. In Malaysia, we only believe the “Business Section” of the newspaper.”
Mahathir_fan, you yourself fell for a Malaysian press propaganda piece called “Malaysian Doctors Losing Out” (http://www.rjkoehler.com/?p=2782#comments), citing the story in your post as evidence of Malaysian doctors facing discrimination in Britain. The headline and lead paragraph did indeed allege racism, but the entire rest of the story dealt with the problem of British-trained Malaysian doctors taking up employment in British hospitals instead of returning home to working conditions they perceive as inferior. Where are YOUR critical thinking skills? I thought you Malaysians believed only the business section of the newspaper.
gbevers scribbled:
“If they are so well documented, then please give us a short list of five of the atrocities that the Japanese committed against their colonial subjects, and please be sure to include the dates and places they took place.”
Japanese atrocities:
====================
* The rape and burning of Queen Min/Empress Myeongseong, Korea, 1851.
* March 1st Movement/Samil Movement, Seoul, Korea 1919.
* Nanjing/Nanking Incident, Nanking, China 1927.
* Jinan/May 3rd/Tsinen Incident, Jinan, China, 1928.
* Kaimingye Germ Weapon Attack, 1938~42, Zhejiang, China.
* Death Railway, Burma to Thailand, 1940s.
* Nanking Massacre/The Rape of Nanking, Nanjing, China, 1937~38.
* Soon Ching Massacre, Singapore, 1942.
* Changde Chemical Weapon Attack, Hunan, China, 1943.
* Sandakan Death Marches, North Borneo/Malaysia, 1942~45.
* Manilla Massacre, Manila, Philippines, 1945.
By the time the Japanese were soundly defeated, and agreed to the unconditional surrender to the Allied Forces, Japanese had murdered 30 million people. To put things into perspective as to how brutal the Japanese were, it’s estimated the Germans killed 20 million people in concentration camps.
Interesting discussion. Those calling the dropping of the atomic bombs war crimes, give me a bit of heatburn.
To add just a couple of more things to the discussion which has been interesting to read and as added justification to the dropping of the atomic bombs which ended the war so ever quickly:
The death toll in the Asian theatre was at 250,000-450,000/month in the last few months of the war. Dropping the bombs stopped this.
Modern casualty estimates of an invasion of the Japanese mainland have put it into the millions. Dropping the bombs saved lives.
According to translations of journals and other records, Japan was in no way even close to surrendering until the second bomb was dropped and even that took a direct pronouncement from the Emperor as the military figured the US couldn’t have very many atomic weapons.
Anyway, it is an interesting subject to study. I was floored when I studied just how prepared Japan was for the invasion. It would have been the bloodiest battle ever fought in any war as the battle would have begun before our ships were even close to the beaches. The US had no idea what they were in store for. After studying this, I consider the atomic bombs to have been huge blessings for both sides.
The Japanese knew they were beat pretty early on in the war. Their only hope was to hang on long enough to make the cost of invading Japan so high the Allied Forces would enter a peace treaty or armistice.
Had a ground invasion been necessary, Operation Downfall could have included gas attacks by the Allied Forces against the Japanese hiding in caves, justified by the Japanese having used gas in Manchuria. Had a ground invasion actually happened, when it was all said and done with, there would be as many as 4,000,000 dead Allied Forces, and up to 10,000,000 dead Japanese.
Little did the Japanese know, that by X-Day there would have been at least 7 (READ: 7) atomic bombs available for use against the Japanese — there’d be nothing left of Japan, completely wiped off from the face of the Earth.
In all sincerity, the use of the atomic bombs was extremely humane, given: 1) the Japanese are the ones that had initiated the war with a sneak-attack on sleeping victims without any declaration of war in place; 2) the Japanese atrocities and cruel treatment of their enemies; and, 3) the number of absolutely innocent people murdered by the Japanese had exceeded 30,000,000.
This arguement has been beaten to death already so there isn’t much I can offer thatd be very interesting. More accurately, I should say there isn’t anything I can offer that would likely dissuade the entrenched opinions.
With that being said, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MARMOT STOP TEASING US WITH NEW TEMPLATES ALL DAY!
thats all.
“This just in. In a stunning turn of events, the Sankei Shimbun has just reported they have uncovered a vast conspiracy to pin the rap on Japan for purported atrocities committed in WWII.”
What? Tell me if that is anything new. In the world of propaganda, the Japan did not even invade China. After invading Manchuria, they returned Manchuria back to its rightful owner, Emperor Puyi.
In China, China was returned back to the KMT under the leadership of Mr. Jin something something.
It is true. Look it up.
All day? I spent, what, a whole hour playing around with Canvas for Wordpress yesterday evening?
Remort,
As I suspected, you are attributing acts committed outside Korea as being committed against Koreans. You listed only one “atrocity” committed against Koreans during the Korean colonial period, the March 1st movement, which was a nationwide action that also involved violence on the part of Koreans. Queen Min’s murder happened fifteen years before Korea became a colony.
By the way, Remort, where did you get your information to claim that “Japanese had murdered 30 million people” before they surrendered to the Allies?
Even the following site linked below says that Japan killed 5.964 million during World War II, including 2.85 million in China.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB8.1.GIF
Robert: Took a while to get back to you. I’m saying that guilt about the past in general is a bad thing, whether it’s the Japanese doing it, Americans, the Brits or anybody. Western imperialism had a lot of benefits and so did Japanese imperialism. The Japanese got worse with time, whereas in general the Euros/Americans usually got better (i.e. in 1935 the U.S. agreed to give up the P.I. in 1945 and the Brits handed over pretty much their entire empire without a fuss). Anyway, the U.S. and U.K. have definitely done far more good than bad in advancing civilization in the world, have nearly defeated certain social ills such as slavery and racism and shouldn’t be guilty about the past.
Perhaps you weren’t being morally relativistic, but a lot of people are (including above). Nuking Japan ended a barbaric reign of terror. Having to use such weapons sucked, but there’s no moral equivalence between fascist Imperial Japan and a democratic Australia, N.Z., U.S., U.K. and Netherlands. The good system won and today Japan is an integrated part of that system, thank Oppenheimer.
I think the view of Europeans and the Japanese being the only empire-builders in the world is a little exclusive. Let’s see what the Chinese did to one Tibetan region:
While hiking in Aba TAR, and especially in the Siguniang peaks, we will be passing through areas dominated by the Gyarong people. The ethnic origin of the Gyarong has been the subject of much debate. Many Gyarong people feel that they represent a distinct race. Others feel that they are closely related to, if not identical to, the Tibetans. There is also evidence in favor of Qiang ancestry. The Gyarong speak a dialect of Tibetan intelligible only to themselves, but their written language is standard Tibetan. Recent Gyarong history is war torn. Two wars in the 18th century, known as the Jin Chuan Wars, decimated their population. These wars were fought during the reign of the Qing Dynasty emperor Qian Long, between his Imperial troops and the eighteen Gyarong kingdoms concentrated mainly in Jin Chuan county. The first war was fought between 1744 and 1749, and the second between 1771 and 1776. While fighting these two wars, Qian Long nearly emptied the imperial treasury in his efforts to crush the fiercely independent kings of Gyarong, who refused to pay homage either to Peking or to Lhasa. The Gelupa sect of Tibetan Buddhism, dominant in Lhasa at that time and intolerant of the many Gyarong Bonpos, allied themselves with the Imperial aggressors. By the end of the second war, nearly 80% of the Gyarong population had been killed or forced into exile. Bonpo monks had been massacred, and their monasteries converted to Gelupa establishments. Some of these monasteries have, since 1980, converted back to Bonism.
The Africans, of course, were empire-builders par excellence, until the existing empires were smashed up and replaced with their European counterparts. African atrocities against both defeated tribes and European explorers were blood-curdling in their savagery, up to and including having them for lunch. I find it amusing that an African, of all people, should be accusing Europeans of being uncivilized. The fact of the matter is that every country in existence is the result of imperialism either by white, yellow, black or brown men. Why is Indonesia a single country today? Because the Dutch conquered the dozens of kingdoms in the area and welded them into a single administrative unit. Why are China and Korea single countries today? Because various kings set out, sword in hand, to “unify” the territories they currently contain into a single political unit, not by asking nicely, but by killing anyone who demurred, and making a public example of them – by displaying their heads on pikes. In other words, just like the Japanese did in WWII, and rather less civilized than what Europeans did during the salad days of Western (versus the more traditional non-Western) imperialism.
I find it amusing that a Chinese can’t resist indulging his racism by putting words into an African’s mouth in order to excuse calling him “uncivilized” (after having used the word “tribes” to dismiss an entire continent whose history and cultures he obviously knows next-to-nothing about), and this in response to a post in which said African is actually noting the hypocrisy of Europeans singling out an Asian country for criticism. Methinks the truly uncivilized one is you, monsieur.
Zhang Fei isn’t Chinese. Well he is, but he isn’t. He’s a literary/historical figure being used as a nom de plume.
HAHAhahahahahaha
Talk about rewriting textbooks. Some counterarguments?
Exhibit A.
Exhibit B.
Exhibit C.
Exhibit D.
Etc etc etc.
gbevers scribbled:
“As I suspected, you are attributing acts committed outside Korea as being committed against Koreans. You listed only one “atrocity” committed against Koreans during the Korean colonial period, the March 1st movement, which was a nationwide action that also involved violence on the part of Koreans.”
Wrong. Big surprise, YOU ARE WRONG again. You said “colonies”, not just “Korea”. Duh. Can you possibly imagine why Koreans might be upset when Japanese show up on their shores with the intent of sacking Korea, raping its women, looting and pillaging, and burning everything down (as they did in China with the scorched earth policy)? Surely, you too can see why the Chinese might be upset with the Japanese atrocities also, can’t you?
Want to talk about all the other countries that Japan committed atrocities in too?
gbevers scribbled:
“Queen Min’s murder happened fifteen years before Korea became a colony.”
Wrong again. You must not know that Japan attempted to colonize Korea twice, count ‘em 2 times. It’s ok, I didn’t expect a known JAPANESE APOLOGIST to freely admit he’s wrong.
Look up “turtle boats” while you have the books cracked open, it’s a nice read, and maybe it’ll help you from making such ignorant comments in the future.
However, a recent event was a nice gesture, and a step in the right direction in terms of trying to make amends for Japan’s criminal past — but maybe not enough according to the Korean people having fallen short of an “official apology”. The descendants of the Queen Min’s assassins came to Korea to make an apology and beg forgiveness from the Korean people for their ancestors’ actions in the Japanese plot.
http://www.royalarchive.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=708&Itemid=2
Curzon—I hope you didn’t think that I was arguing that European colonialism was high-minded and Japanese barbaric (I’m not sure if you directed that comment at me or Remort). I was trying to say quite the opposite—that some attacks on Japanese imperialism seem accompanied by racist assumptions that “white imperialism” was more civilized, which it most certainly was not.
Remort Wrote:
I disagreed.
Then Remort Wrote:
I said: “If they are so well documented, then please give us a short list of five of the atrocities that the Japanese committed against their colonial subjects, and please be sure to include the dates and places they took place.”
Remort was able to give me only one example, the March 1st Movement. When I pointed this out, Remort seemed confused.
Romort, colonies and occupied countries are different. Also, Korea was a colony of Japan only once.
For anyone besides the eager Beaver who is willing to dig into records of what the Japanese did (their own records, mind you which the US for political purposes kept classified until 2003) during the war and in some cases prior (pre-1937) you can sift through the documents of IWG provided by National Archives:
http://www.archives.gov/iwg/
Of course to get the details most of that stuff is only available on site at NARA in College Park but a book is in the works as a follow on the recently completed piece on US Intel and the Nazi War Crimes. So keep an eye out for that.
Draw up any list of atrocities and dates you want. The gall to ask for 5 is utterly incomprehensible. The only way to respond to that kind of incorrigibleness is to assume that person is complicit in what Japan did.
gbevers:
Are you seriously disagreeing with the facts that the Japanese raped, tortured and murdered Koreans? If so, have you ever spoken to any Koreans about this era in their history?
gbevers scribbled:
“Romort, colonies and occupied countries are different. Also, Korea was a colony of Japan only once.”
It’s “Re-mort” as in re-read what I wrote.
Let’s be clear, Japan has engaged in three distinct colonization attempts of Korea: 1) the first colonization attempt was initiated by the Seven Year War, 1592-98 (that included two illegal invasions in 1592 & 1597); 2) the second colonization attempt began in 1876 with the Treaty of Kanghwa, that ended with the Japanese having their asses handed to them by the Allied Forces in 1945; and finally, 3) the third colonization attempt of Korea began by the Japanese illegally occupying Dokdo Island.
What goes around, comes around. The U.S. isn’t colonizing Germany or Japan, we’re just occupying them for their own good. I’m sure it pains you, you being a Japanese apologists and all, to know we are not ever leaving. Japan is extremely fortunate that the U.S. doesn’t just hand over Okinawa, Kyuusyuu and Dokdo to the Koreans for the Japanese war atrocities.
Although Remort, I’m not sure the Okinawans would appreciate being handed over from one colonial power to the next, but point well taken.
Mr. Chips wrote:
I do not exactly know what you mean when you refer to my “gall,” but the reason I asked for five examples of Japanese atrocities committed against Koreans during Korea’s colonial period is that I cannot name five, so I was wondering if anyone else could. I wanted people to tell me exactly what those atrocities were instead of giving me the overused line, “the Japanese raped, tortured, and killed innocent Koreans.”
So far, no one has given me my short list, not even you, Mr. Chips.
Remort Wrote:
I cannot disagree with the facts until I know what they are, so please list them.
Remort Wrote:
When did this happen? Can you see into the future?
Remort Wrote:
US occupation ended in Japan in 1952. By the way, I think it is a good idea that the US military remains in Japan for as long as Japan and the US feel they are needed.
gbevers scribbled:
“I do not exactly know what you mean when you refer to my “gall,” but the reason I asked for five examples of Japanese atrocities committed against Koreans during Korea’s colonial period is that I cannot name five, so I was wondering if anyone else could.”
Look, I have provided you way more information than you requested out of the kindness of my heart, with the sincere hope of educating you on the sinister past of Japan’s war crimes. If you want to categorically deny Japan’s atrocities, by whitewashing the matter, and in some instances just dismissing it out of hand, you’re welcome, by all means, to remain in the dark on the matter.
Beyond that, you’ll need to conduct your own research by taking a few classes or reading books on the topics, instead of arguing with people that have provided you evidence already, contrary to your silly statements and challenges. However, I think, MrChips is right on the money about gbevers when he said, “The gall to ask for 5 is utterly incomprehensible. The only way to respond to that kind of incorrigibleness is to assume that person is complicit in what Japan did.” You just don’t get it, even with the evidence and proof right in front of your eyes.
BTW, “gall” means: gumption, boldness, guts, spunk, wisdom, and common sense.
Gerry’s challenge to provide specific examples of atrocities was reasonable, and responding to that challenge by insulting him or telling him to go research in order to prove himself wrong is lame. Only MrChips provided a link, which I checked out. It would take me a lot of googling to find any information on Japanese atrocities in Korea.
I believe Japanese colonial rule was brutal because I was told so over and over again while I was in Korea. I have not read a single book documenting the Korean experience under Japanese rule. I read Iris Chang’s The Rape of Nanking and Serling Seagraves’ The Yamato Dynasty, which included examples of pillaging and violence in China and the Philippines. Is there at least one accurately documented, well-written book that would challenge Gerry to rethink his views?
Sonagi:
Yes, I’d recommend reading _The Japanese on Trial: Allied War Crimes Operations in the East, 1945-51_.
I believe the Japanese war crimes and atrocities were extremely brutal, due to my discussions with non-Japanese Asians.
During the last 20 years in private discussions, I repeatedly heard “we’re better than other Asians” or “those other non-Japanese Asians are less than human” type attitudes amongst the Japanese. I attribute the Japanese attitudes partially to brain-washing, given the distorted version of Japanese history they are taught in school, but largely their attitudes are shaped by their parents’ beliefs.
Sonagi, I would appreciate your sentiment regarding the Beaver if he were a high school student or someone freshly arrived in Asia without any any perspective on the issue. He knows better, though. Providing “evidence” to someone who will run through your dates/facts piecemeal and find a way to explain how it can’t be considered a real atrocity does a disservice to the victims and their families. I find his request for 5 “facts” and dates to be disingenuous.
Regarding books on Korea’s ordeal under Japan I agree there isn’t much to fall on that corroborates the exact numbers of executions, forced labor, comfort women, etc. that are out there but inflating the number of comfort women from 60,000 to 200,000 doesn’t make it any less of an atrocity from the victims’ perspectives and asking for dates to something that was systematic over a long period of time shows a certain callousness to the issue. A lot of the lack of specific evidence such as execution records and records of comfort women have to do with the restrictions on press during the occupation not on the lack of incidents. And so, I would heartily recommend to people other than the Beaver to read through the “Annual Reports on Reforms and Progress in Chosen” which were periodically (not annually, don’t know why) compiled by the Government-General of Chosen. Those corroborate the legal strictures that were set up during the first 9 years of formal colonial rule and later the gendarmerie policies of the 20s. Add to that the eye-witness accounts of thousands who saw on the spot exectutions by policemen forced relocation of workers, and then much later the use of political prisoners from Korea in the bio camps of Units 731 and 100 in Manchuria, on which declassified paperwork is currently being released, and its not hard to see the systematic repression of the Korean people. Not hard to see if one is willing.
Meanwhile, I believe the post topic was regarding western perspectives. And until someone comes out like the Beaver actively trying to deify the Japan’s WWII behavior I simply think westerners should be cautious in how they approach historical issues and remind themselves of their own countries’ pasts before gettin all uppity.
“I attribute the Japanese attitudes partially to brain-washing, given the distorted version of Japanese history they are taught in school, but largely their attitudes are shaped by their parents’ beliefs.”
Please give me a break. Asians seem to hate one another and feel superior to each other, this is no unique trait of the Japanese. Brainwashing? Japanese brainwashing is no more than that that goes on in SK or China.
Did the Japanese commit crimes? Yes, I believe so. Is there anything they should do about it? Possibly (diplomatically and perhaps financially), but I wouldn’t feel any guilt if I were Japanese (unless I had committed some crimes). I might feel bad that my race did some nasty things (as did many western civilizations), but screw the guilt trip. Why should I feel an ounce of guilt for the terrible way Canada treated Indians?
Is there a need to patch up things diplomatically? Yes, but perhaps this could be done without having to bow and scrape and beg for forgiveness from others who would probably yet again dismiss it as ‘insincere’.
Mr. Chips,
Asking where and when an atrocity took place is being disingenuous? And reviewing the evidence of an actrocity is a disservice to the victim?
One thing I have learned from studying Korea’s claims on Dokdo/Takeshima is that Korean historians can be very disingenuous by omitting damaging records and maps and drawing conclusions based on little or no evidence.
So please excuse me for being a little suspicious of claims of atrocity, especially when the people making them refuse to tell me when and where the atrocities took place. Are we just expected to pronounce the Japanese “guilty” without naming a victim or the time and place of the crime?
Mr.Chips,
China has never had a free press, yet atrocities like the rape of Nanjing and the human medical experiments camp in northern China have been documented and are well-known. In the Yamato Dynasty, Serling Seagrave did a splendid job detailing how the Japanese economic miracle was partly funded by wealth robbed systematically from the Chinese. Accessing and publishing Japanese records of their own crimes would be nice, but even without such records, one can document through numerous eye-witness accounts, which have been the basis of allegations of US atrocities like Nogunri. Remort recommended a book about Japanese colonialism in Asia. I have not heard of the book, but I would expect to find lots of information about China and southeast Asia and not much on Korea. I would be interested in reading a book focusing on Korea with the victims telling the story in their own words. Is there such a book? You mentioned eye-witness accounts of executions and forced labor. Where have you seen these? I don’t doubt that these things happened, but it is important to document these experiences for future generations.
I do not share Gary’s incredulousness, but I understand it. A Korean-American adoptee friend showed me a book she had received from the Holt adoption agency. In a section on Korean history, the book stated something like “The Korean Righteous Army was poised to retake Korea, but was denied the chance when Japan surrendered.” To me, this statement is delusional, yet I wonder how many Koreans believe it.
Soldiers of the Sun : The Rise and Fall of the Imperial Japanese Army by Meirion Harries
A great book on the how and why of Japan’s marauding military in the WW2 period, as well as early forays in Okinawa and in Siberia.
Sonagi wrote:
“Gerry’s challenge to provide specific examples of atrocities was reasonable, and responding to that challenge by insulting him or telling him to go research in order to prove himself wrong is lame.”
I can only assume “Gerry” is “gbevers”. I should have let him remain ignorant on this issue. But, I, as well as others, have repeatedly complied with his request. He simply doesn’t want to listen to what people are telling him, or conduct his own research into the topic at hand.
To answer your request about a book in the victim’s own words in Korea specifically, I’d recommend three books: _Silence Broken: Korean Comfort Women_, _The Comfort Women: Japan’s Brutal Regime of Enforced Prostitution in the Second World War_ and, _True Stories of the Korean Comfort Women_. As you can imagine, the survivors in these books that shared their painful experiences are even further humiliated by this experience that exposes to their spouses, family members and neighbors the ordeal they suffered through. But they felt it was absolutely necessary to let the world know how they were exploited sexually by the Japanese. These books are in the victims’ own words (translated into English) of their experiences at the hand of imperial Japan.
I think Robert is being too harsh on Britain and the U.S. The very fact that he has been able to accumulate the knowledge of historical facts of British and US colonialism from secondary British and American resources in and of itself proves that Britain and the US do not suffer from historical amnesia (by “amnesia” I mean actively forgetting, by redacting or rewriting historical documents). Rather, what they may or may not suffer from is the lack of heartfelt revisitation of the matter by the public and their governments. This is different from Japan, which has been trying to rewrite history by domestically censoring information and discourse over its imperial past. The Japanese are trying to change their response from “Sorry” to “What are you talking about?”
If what Robert is saying is really true in all respects, then as influential in the media as Britain and the US are, lay people would have a heck of a time finding proof of what happened to even begin to make the argument.
Remort,
I know there are books on comfort women, but what about more general books detailing other acts of exploitation and violence, such as forced labor and public executions?
Sonagi,
Here’s a couple links you might find interesting, and a book I wish every serious student of Asia would read.
Japan’s Sins of the Past
The Looting of Asia
_The Rape of Nanking: An Undeniable History in Photographs_
This site might open gbever’s eyes to the truth about Japan’s brutality.
***WARNING: Just like book _The Rape of Nanking: An Undeniable History in Photographs_ this site has extremely graphic pictures.***
Nanking gallery
Plenty of fake, misattributed, and doctored photographs in that gallery, Remort.
“This is different from Japan, which has been trying to rewrite history by domestically censoring information and discourse over its imperial past.”
Are you sure about this? Just because some politicians shout about nationalism doesn’t mean that information isn’t widely available. Having an open and democratic nation is a far better way to disperse information, good or bad, than any attempt to control what another country tells its people. Hence, it’s a joke to hear the Chinese complain so much. The key here is whether alternate views and info is readily available to the Japanese, as is the case in the West.
shakuhachi wrote:
“Plenty of fake, misattributed, and doctored photographs in that gallery, Remort.”
This may or may not be true — I didn’t take the pictures, I simply indicated that they are available. I hope to God that these are fake, and everyone is lying about their accounts of Japanese colonial atrocities and brutality. With that said, how can YOU be so certain that these pictures are bogus?
Given that *ALL* of the former-Japanese colonies say very similar things about the brutality and atrocities they experienced, I’d tend to believe what they say to be true and honest accounts. If real, the pictures accurately and most definitely support the claims they have made to be true. I find it impossible to really believe that all the former colonies of Japan are making false and bogus claims with their testimonials and photographic evidence.
“Plenty of fake, misattributed, and doctored photographs in that gallery, Remort”
Oh, c’mon, Shakuhachi. Only one photograph that I know of has been specifically alleged to have been set up – the widely recognized image of the baby crying on the tracks. Even if a Chinese cameraman set up the shot, it wasn’t the Chinese who bombed out those buildings in the background. Sadly, Japanese nationalists focus on that one photo and conveniently ignore the dozens of other images of trenches filled with dead bodies, an Australian POW about to be beheaded, and a naked Chinese woman strapped to a chair.
Sambek_ZX wrote:
“The Japanese are trying to change their response from “Sorry” to “What are you talking about?””
I think you’re right. But it’s more than just the apologists in and outside of Japan that are trying to rewrite history by denying the atrocities they committed. There’s been a large movement for years that are attempting to modify accurate accounts of history throughout the world to fit the “we didn’t do anything wrong” and “Pearl Harbor wasn’t a sneak-attack” mentality by the Japanese. The Japanese are notorious for this type of behavior just like their involvement in changing the name of World War II to the “Great Asian War” in Japanese textbooks.
The fact of the matter is, Japan started a war that they lost badly. Japan needs to take the lead in Asia through accepting responsiblity by: compensating their victims; admitting their war crimes; making painfully sincere apologies; and, destroying the perverse memorial shrines that honor WWII war criminals.
Remort,
Japan paid her victims, paid for her war crimes, and made apologies. And shrines to memorialize the dead is not perverse.
For years, Japan listened silently to the lies and exaggerations coming out of China and Korea, but now Japan is starting to speak up. I think that is a good thing.
By the way, Remort, I think I would prefer educating myself, rather than having you be my teacher.
gbevers wrote:
“For years, Japan listened silently to the lies and exaggerations coming out of China and Korea, but now Japan is starting to speak up. I think that is a good thing.”
Lies and exaggerations?? Try learning the harsh truth about Japan’s sordid past.
Are you claiming that the pictures and testimonials by the victims of Japan’s atrocities are bogus?
gbevers wrote:
“By the way, Remort, I think I would prefer educating myself, rather than having you be my teacher.”
Why do you try to aggravate and annoy everyone by denying the truth about Japan’s wicked and sordid past?
Remort,
I think atrocities were committed on all sides during World War II. As for the pictures, I do not know the stories behind them, and, therefore, cannot judge them. Are those people the victims of Japanese atrocities or Chinese? As for the testimonials, it would depend on whether there are witnesses or evidence to support them.
I do not try to aggravate people. I just do not like people like you making false claims and recommending books that they most likely never read.
I think atrocities were committed on all sides during World War II.
Indubitably (although the number and degree are not the same).
But even if “atrocities were committed on all sides,” that does not put the actions of Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany on the same level as that of the Allies. The criminal actions of the former group of aggressors were intrinsically different from those who were defending themselves and their allies against the aggressors.
It is my belief, for example, that the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were wrong, but the ultimate responsibility for that lies with Japan for starting the war in the first place. The same with things like Dresden.
Japan had no business going into Korea, China, Guam, Indochina, etc. Germany had no business going into Poland, Czechoslovakia, Russia, France, Britain (through bombing raids), etc. The Allies, on the other hand, had every bit of business and right to be defending themselves against Japan and Germany. Even if their degree and number were the same, that puts the atrocities of the Axis on a different plane than those of the Allies.
gbevers confabulated:
“I think atrocities were committed on all sides during World War II.”
What atrocities did the Allied Forces commit during World War II?
gbevers wrote:
“I do not try to aggravate people. I just do not like people like you making false claims and recommending books that they most likely never read.”
What false claims did I make? You have provided no evidence to support any of your claims, and out of hand denied anything anyone has said unfavorable about Japan. It’s obvious you’re a Japanese apologist that refuses to realize the Japanese war crimes & atrocities were brutal, evil, and wicked.
How would you know what books I have or have not read? It’s clear you’re frustrated with your limited knowledge of Asian history and short on social graces. But please, don’t make moronic accusations about me, it just points out what a ill-mannered idiot you are to everyone that reads this blog.
What atrocities did the Allied Forces commit during World War II?
Arguably, the massive conventional bombings of Tokyo and Dresden, plus the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
There is also evidence that the British had conducted human medical experiments on captured Japanese POWs in the Burma campaign. Also, Okinawan women were supposedly rounded up and used as forced prostitutes after the island was taken over. But it was war, and war is hell.
It’s clear you’re frustrated with your limited knowledge of Asian history and short on social graces. Remort
Oh, Gerry Bevers as a long time resident in Korea and armchair historian (and as a pain-in-the-ass overall) has a good knowledge about Asian history, but he’s analyzing every bit of historical evidence and document with his personal spin and biased mantra that:
1. Occupied Korea was a devote ally of Imeprial Japan
2. Post-war Japan has apologized and compensated her colonies and war victims
3. China and Korea should therefore shut up with accusations
4. Imperial Japan’s colonial policy was the main root of economical success in Taiwan and South Korea
5. Yasukuni Shrine is only a place for commemoration of war casualties
Have I forgotten to list some points of your pro-Japanese agenda, Gerry?
The allied fire bombings of Dresden and Tokyo… man, it was a hell of total warfare, deliberately started by the Axis powers.
The Russian forces pillaged, raped and burned like savages after taking of Berlin. But only after they had witnessed the most horrifying looting, raping and killing in their homeland by the Germans with millions of dead Russians and depopulated districts.
The caught criminal is always whining about his “exorbitant” punishment!
kushibo wrote:
“Arguably, the massive conventional bombings of Tokyo and Dresden, plus the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.”
I can name three “war crimes” the Americans & Allied Forces committed: Canicatti Slaughter, Biscari Massacre, and the Dachau Massacre. All three of these incidents had less than 100 victims each — not hundreds of thousands or millions. I don’t see how anyone can put these events on the same level as what the Japanese engaged in prior to and during World War II.
Americans and the Allied Forces demanded an “unconditional surrender.” Because of this, the Japanese were willing to fight to the very end knowing this was the ultimate humiliation.
Obviously, the use of the atomic bombs and air-bombings saved both Allied and Axis lives. Because the Japanese were a continuously belligerent enemy these choices of weaponry had to be made. Surely, the Japanese didn’t want to be totally annihilated with flame-throwers and corkscrew fighting techniques in a land invasion by the Allied Forces.
As a descendant of Cain I’d like to apologize most sincerely for Able. Or is it the other way around?
Do I need to go further back?
Actually, you’re a descendant of Seth, like all of us, via Noah and the family. But you make a decent point.
Oh, yeah! Seth says sorry too.
I worry about this trend. Some of the victims and perpetrators are still alive. “Oh, you know that apology we gave you in 92? We take it back. We did nothing wrong.”
The Marmot’s right. All this stuff should come out but particularly when the involved are around to see a modicum of justice. Hell, I’d like the US to come clean on No Gun Ri. I’m sure there are still folks here in Korea who were involved in those four days of hell.
Hopefully with all the communication and information so easily available alot will be yanked out from under rocks. We could go back as far as anybody wants.
Unfortunately, the chaos and crap sometimes camouflages what we should be looking at.
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