Found myself in a bit of a cultural pickle yesterday.
After work, I got on the bus to head home, as usual. I took an open seat and plugged in the MP3 earphones. The next stop, however, a young Western woman got on the bus, and as the seats had filled up, she had to stand. Which she did… right next to me. Now, I was raised to give your seat to a woman (and I could use the exercise, at any rate). However, I was also taught—in university, where else—that such acts of chivalry are derived from sexist beliefs of female powerlessness and could be offensive. Complicating the issue was that this is Korea, where one normally does NOT give up ones seat for a younger woman, but complicating it even further was the fact that neither of the concerned parties were Korean. I didn’t want to seem rude, but at the same time, I didn’t want to offend the young woman by engaging in a patriarchal and possibly condescending practice of years gone by. It’s been 10 years since I’ve been in the States, so frankly, I’m not sure what the general rule here is. I was trapped in a cultural/political correctness quagmire, and I did the only thing I thought I could do—sit and stare out the window, feeling very, very awkward about the situation.
32 Comments
You did the right thing, sah. Trying to do the chivalry thing could all too easily be taken the wrong way nowadays, and there’s no guarantee that she’d have been grateful even if she weren’t annoyed. Costly acts of gallantry are best saved for personal acquaintances whose reactions one can predict with some confidence.
Robert, mate, you’re a hoot.
If she was a Midwestern American, then if you gave up your seat, she would have appreciated it, thanked you, and maybe struck up a conversation with you, not snickered at your anachronism. People open doors for each other all the time here in Illinois. A kind gesture is a kind gesture.
As an aside, I always wondered how foreigners felt when they pass each other on Korean streets. Do they give the obligatory wassup wave/nod? Do they cross the street to introduce themselves? If near each other in a bus or subway, do they feel pressure to start a conversation in English? If one looks a bit lost do they feel obligated to help out? Or do they go out of their way to avoid eye contact?
When I passed The Marmot on the street, I’m ashamed to say I didn’t greet him properly, although I did make eye contact. But with that purposeful stride and the i-Pod, he did not look like a man who would welcome a greeting from a random fan.
i’ve had the same dilemma although not in korea. without exception, i’ve found that every woman has appreciated me holding a door open or offering a seat. and i do this all the time. it’s not just the midwest yo, i’m a west coast guy and i always get a smile and thank you whether it’s los angeles or seattle.
but here in japan, it shocks me when i’m walking right behind a person here and they let the door shut in my face. strange from an otherwise compulsively polite society.
in short, it’s perfectly fine not to offer a seat. but it’s never wrong to. if they take offense so be it.
I worry that you’ll give the migukin another movie idea with this story.
Shelton would have crafted a novel from that material.
From whence all this misplaced male anxiety? Who exactly has in real life encountered these harridans who harrass gentlemen for being kind?
The sexism in offering your seat is NOT inherent in the gesture, but in the person making the gesture. If you’re doing it to be nice, because she looks tired, or has many bags with her, or is tottering on high heels as the ex-nascar bus driver careens down the roadway, well, fine! If you’re doing it because you want the exercise, you’ve been sitting all day, or you know it’s her or the permed auntie giving you the evil eye - again, fine! If you’re doing it with a smirk because you think she’s a chick and you know having her sit will give you a better view of her boobs, well, then you’re a sexist pig. But she may still accept the seat, and doing so doesn’t mean she’s playing into traditional sex roles. It means she wants to sit down and you’ve provided the means to do so.
She can also decide not to sit down. Maybe she refuses because she’s been trapped at a desk all day, or could use the exercise, or because she was brought up to let greybeards keep their seats. As it was, she didn’t have any choice in the matter, and your concience seems to be hurting.
I’ve given up seats for guys on the bus and subway when I felt like it. I’ve also given up my seat for other women, and have had both genders offer seats. I’ve also offered and been refused. But that’s all that’s ever happened - people say, “No, thank you.” The only time I’ve ever given a lecture to anyone on public transit was when a young woman sat in the “please reserve this seating for seniors and handicapped” section while an elderly woman tried very hard to stay standing as the bus swayed, but couldn’t quite reach the safety strap.
At any rate, it’s a little ridiculous to listen to men worry over this. Just offer the seat if you feel like it, and accept whatever the answer is with the same grace as it is given.
Somewhere out there, there’s a girl complaining on her MySpace page about the jerk who made her stand on the bus today.
Why would you care about the opinion of a person that might possibly jump on a well meaning person because they were being ‘patriarchal’? A little backbone goes a long way.
Sambek_ZX
I always say “Hey” to other foreigners. About 50 % of the time, they look at me like “Don’t you know, in Korea people don’t do that?”
I especially say something to SE Asians since a) they are the nicest people in the world and b) Koreans crap on them.
If she was a young hottie, or an older women… Seriously though, everyone works hard, and is tired at the end of the day, I would have offered her my seat -or- at least snapped a picture of her for the Marmot’s Hole readers to view.
That or she reads this blog, and I’ll get a comment later to the effect of, “Oh, so you’re the asshole who made me stand. It’s not like you didn’t need to burn off the calories, you fat bastard.”
She was cute, too. Made the experience even more uncomfortable (not that more homely ladies are any less deserving of chivalrous treatment).
Anyway, if she’s reading this, yeah, I’m the big white guy in the hanbok on the 604 who got off just after Namsan No. 3 tunnel. My bad.
Fishbang—Damn, and here I was worrying about either a) coming off as a jerk; or b) coming off as a sexist. Should have been worrying about c) appearing like I have “misplaced male anxiety.”
you should’ve pulled the old cheech and chong routine:
Marmot: “Would you like a place to sit?”
white lady: “Yeah, sure.”
Marmot: (while wiping around your mouth and lips)”Here, let me clear a space off for you.”
it’s pure class!
no, you should have been worrying about mispelling my username ^^
Haha! “Fishbang”. Looks like The Marmot’s got some Freudian issues to deal with as well.
Wouldn’t the correct response be to fake that you are asleep until your stop arrived? When in Rome…
That would have worked.
My bad about the username, figbash. Just some Freudian issues I’m working on, as Iceberg noted
Coming from nice Midwestern stock, I am a door-holder. Koreans never fail to make me feel like a stooge for holding the door; in 15 years holding doors for other people here, I have never seen a Korean touch the door him/herself, and have been thanked for the gesture exactly once.
Should’ve asked if she’d like to sit on your lap.
Doubt the wife would have appreciated that.
If you were gonna spend the bus ride feeling awkward, you might as well stop staring out the window and start checking out her ass. At least that’s awkwardness with a purpose. (just kidding, I would have stared out the window too)
–I usually give the head nod to other foreigners here in China, and get a head nod back 50% of the time.
–we don’t have the puposeful sleepers on the subways and buses much here, just guys who puposely splay out their legs when sitting so that they take up as much space as possible. I wish the subway bench-seats had subtle butt ridges pointing out where people should sit so you don’t have 4 or 5 people sperad out in a space that fits 6.
You’re a complicated man, Mr. Marmot
I’ve almost given up on holding doors for women in Korea, for reasons Mr. Carr has already enumerated. On buses though, I always give up the seat for women, so there
Marmot: At least you didn’t molest her.
The acknowledgement of other foreigners: I usually say hey in my neighborhood. Only the Krauts give me a stare like I’m nuts or something.
Brendon: I have noticed a lot of improvement in 13 years in door holding and the acknowledgement of such (rather than just letting you hold it). Sit down for this: I even had an elevator held for me today. I swear!
Bus commutes are a crowded affair, and the etiquette here doesn’t demand for you to give up the seat. Really, she ought to learn how to deal with the situation, because it’s going to happen to her all the time, and not because anyone’s got a ‘thing’ about the Westerner.
I am from nice midwestern stock, too, and no man has ever offered his seat to me on public transport, nor would I expect him to. I have had men open doors for me, and I have opened doors for men. I don’t believe in chivalry, but I do believe in common courtesy.
The long and the short of it is that it doesn’t matter what you choose to do, really, in the big picture. But I happen to think that you should offer the seat if you want to — by asking her if she’d like to sit. If she seems like she’d appreciate it, give it up. If she seems annoyed, then fine, you have the MP3 player, right?
I tend to find foreigners ’round here tend to view such acts as a break from the somewhat less, um, considerate handling they get from others. (ie. doors slamming in their faces, people butting into line, etc.) If someone can’t accept a small generosity because she wants to read sexism into it, she’s set up to enjoy life a lot less. Enjoyment of life is a little less as well when one worries whether one will be seen as sexist in considering such an act, so, I guess I’d say it’s better to risk her annoyance than to stare out the window and feel, well, icky about it.
Who knows? She might thank you for remembering your bloodlines, and what they have accomplished.
Well, you know, there’s nothing like a little 동포애…
Or, you could just pretend to get up. u know, readjust your seating, put your things together, straighten up, and then…uh uh uh. ahhh and just when she thinks she’s got a seat you just stay put. not that I would ever do that of course
The Southerner in me says, that you should always be a gentleman and yield your seat. Period. If they accept it, fine, if they don’t, then you move on to another part of the carriage. Locals will note your manners and hers.
The buddhist in me says, if you still don’t know if you did the right thing, then you didn’t. You know, like that old koan about the two monks, a maiden, and how she crossed the muddy road. One monk carried her and put her down, leaving her on the sidewalk. The other monk carried her all day in his mind.
Well put. Thanks.